The Challenges of First-Time Entrepreneurship | Naomi Van Halteren, LunaVR

Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Bits and Bytes. On today's episode, we have a special guest, Naomi. Naomi, if you want to quickly introduce yourself to all of our listeners.

Hi, my name is Naomi vanholtran. I am the CEO and founder of a company called Luna VR and I'm from Vancouver, but I'm presently sitting in the UK right now. So, hi.

Yeah, thank you for taking the time to join us. I know the time zone difference is quite a lot, but I'm glad we were able to make it work.

Yeah.

So I just wanted to start off, like, tell us a little bit about Luna VR.

Yeah, so what we do is I'm a registered nurse. I created the company because I really saw a need with my patients. VR in Vancouver is a really big growing sector. I'd never tried it before and quickly realized the power that VR has. So what we do at Luna is we want to help change your vaccine experience and therefore change your needle experience. So most people's fears are related to the first time they get a vaccine. And often this is children or some adults who like to delay the process. And if you have a first initial fear of a needle in a vaccine, it kind of stays with you. So some kids don't have any psychological effects. Other kids have multiple physiological and psychological effects. So that could be anything from your heart racing the minute you see it to people faint and seizure. So we're trying to use VR to change that process and make it a little bit easier.

And so how did you get the idea of using VR? Like, have you had a lot of experience with working with VR in the past or like, just like, you know, gaming with VR? I know there's a lot of multi uses now for VR technology. So how did that become an inspiration?

No, I had no, absolutely no experience with VR, to be honest. I was. I always worked as a labor and delivery nurse. So I absolutely loved, you know, hard 12 hour shifts. Had never thought about VR other than I was worried because I was getting motion sick, so I thought, you know, wouldn't work for me. I stopped doing that job and became a vaccine nurse full time. And one day after, like a long shift of doing the same thing over and over and having a lot of adults really complain, and not just complain, but be. It was hard to see so many. I'm not gonna lie, it was more men. But to see so many men terrified to sit in a seat and get a needle was pretty shocking. So I'd been at work all day and my husband had won a Oculus Go. And. And he was like, oh, just try it. Just try it. And I was like, no, I'm tired. Leave me alone. And then I was sitting on my balcony in Vancouver and he put it on and I was in like, a beach water scene. There was like, some alien beside me and, like a ton of moons. And like, right away, number one, I forgot I was on a balcony, which is kind of terrifying. But also, I like, you know, after work how you're like, stressed in your shoulder, everything's tense. Like my whole body, like, relaxed and. And I was like, whoa. I never thought about VR as a tool to help actually, like, relax your body. So, yeah, then I started doing research to see if people were using it. Do doctors and nurses use this? And so.

So the only thing stopping you from becoming an entrepreneur sooner was your husband didn't win any contests.

Exactly. Yeah. He's too cheap to buy it on his own. Awesome.

So, like, what is the VR experience like for patients that are using Luna VR? Like, can you give us like, a step by step of, like, what the procedure would be like?

Yeah. So I really wanted it to match what normal nurses and doctors do and what patients go through in a vaccine procedure. You know, we don't want to. We don't want to do a five minute lead up to this, you know, vaccine that's making people terrified. So the whole process is about 90 seconds. And what that does is we give you time to get to know what VR looks like. So if kids have never been in it, you know, they don't really look around because they're so in awe. And adults will either look around or fidget or whatever. And so we first wanted to. I wanted kids to feel empowered when they get a vaccine. As we've all seen with COVID herd, immunity is really important. People who get vaccines and, you know, kids that go through it need to know that they're helping their loved ones, they're helping their community. And so I wanted them to get superpowers. So living in bc, I had to put mountains in it. I hate winter, so I love the idea of it being like a winter wonderland and then melting it into summer. And another key thing was I wanted, when the character in VR touched you, it to match what was happening in real life. And that's key, so that kids aren't jumping out the way and we could give a heads up so they're sort of fighting off these snow monsters. The first cold, which is a snowflake in their arm, is when we do an alcohol swab, which Cold is often the sense. And then the burning is the hardest part of vaccines to stop because as everyone remembers, the minute goes in your muscles. Like, you know, it's not actually the needle going in, it's that burning sensation. So we found that people have already studied this for 19 years. The more input your brain has, the less it can focus on pain. It's basically why, you know, if your one foot's hurting, you stomp on your other foot. The idea behind it, it's distraction. Yeah, exactly, it's distraction. So we kind of made it so that the minute the burning starts is when the most visual and sound effects happen. And, you know, the kids could kind of be like, whoa, something else is happening. And then they are way more distracted, which is really cool.

No, this is really well thought out. I mean, I personally got to experience Lunar VR myself, and it's definitely, like, beautiful inside. Like the characters and everything. Speaking of the characters, Luna the dog in Luna VR is actually inspired from. From your own dog, right?

Yep, yep. And we were on like a seven month hiatus. Me and my husband just quit everything because we started working really young and we went and traveled and we found her in Mexico. So I always say she's like, tied up outside a restaurant and we didn't steal her, which everyone thinks she was for adoption. And so anyway, we've used her now as a character.

Well, that's amazing.

Yeah, so that's awesome.

I was just gonna ask, like, do you have the same kind of storyline, whether it's an adult or child? Do you guys run with the same thing or is it different?

Yeah, so we teamed up with Centennial College, which is kind of funny. They saw me speak at a health tech event. And I was actually trained for nursing in Toronto at Ryerson. And Centennial College is the sister college to the nursing school I went to. So that was kind of cool. And so we teamed up to create, through their WINTAC program, which is like technical development students, different adult experiences. So there's some cool ones that they came up with. Like, one was like, you're. Cause I always love the B.C. vibe because B.C. is the best. So one was like a fire pit in front of you. And like, these adults are having different conversations and it's kind of more funny. And then the people beside you touch different parts of your arm because it's also. As an adult, we get more than just one vaccine. We can often. I don't know if you've gone traveling anytime and you get like four and you get yellow fever, which is super Painful. So we're still developing those, but it's definitely going to be different for adults and the storylines that we've started just to make sure that, you know, they're having more fun than, you know, adult humor. We should have a little bit more adult humor.

Yeah, that's definitely cool. I would definitely try it out once you have the adult version release. Like, that's awesome.

Yeah.

So I know that Luna VR, then it's your first company, like your first outside of being an rn. So like being a first time entrepreneur, like, what were some of the challenges that you found that you were facing, like, that you didn't expect or like, were something that you were expecting down the road?

Yeah, I think when I first became an entrepreneur, I looked around and was like, why does it take everyone so long? Understand, don't you just like do like, you know, 12 hour shifts? I was like, I get so much done in 12 hours. You know, like, what is taking people so long? And then I didn't realize that like life happens and like when you have a normal scheduled job, you know, sometimes you can't sacrifice to do things in life that you would normally do or they give you a specific time off. But when you're an entrepreneur, you're doing this all the time. It's exhausting. Um, it's a lot of self motivation. So I think, number one, I didn't realize how hard it was. I very naively didn't understand that. Also, I didn't realize, like, actually I was, you know, I've met everyone here through Launch Academy and I remember one day I walked in and I was like, everyone was very happy and I was like, I'm so down, like entrepreneur. Like, what the heck? Why is everyone so happy all the time? And so the guy sitting across from me, I was like, this is, I don't know you, but like, do you ever get really down about like starting a company? And he was like, oh yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's called the, like, I didn't remember the term. I think it's entrepreneurship blues or something.

And I was like, startup depression. There's lots of names.

Like, yeah, I was not expecting that. So you get these huge highs. You know, things are moving, people love you, they want to see your stuff, da, da, da. And then you get like this, like one person will make a comment, you're like, oh my gosh. You know, it's like close to home. So those are two major things that I think I can think about.

So it's really interesting because, like, obviously in the past you were a registered nurse. And I think I'm not overdramatizing today when I say nurses are heroes. Right. Like, in a lot of them, especially the ones in the er, they're in high pressure situations like how. And I don't need a direct comparison, but just kind of like the experience of working both roles, like, how do you compare it? What's similar? What's different?

Critical thinking is huge. So I always did high risk pregnancies. So a lot of pregnancy complications and labor and delivery. So birthing babies. I think in nursing you have standards and protocols, so you have to think critically and you have to, like, do something fast. But you also have kind of like an underlying rule book. In entrepreneurship. I kept asking people, like, okay, so am I allowed to do this? And am I allowed to do this? And people kept saying, like, you can do whatever you want. And I hated that. To start with, my mentor is Dan Berger, and he kept being like, stop calling me about questions like, you can do. No, I want, like the rule book where you don't, you know, you don't step outside of the line. So that's definitely a big difference.

Yeah. What about the stress part? Because you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, the depression and stuff like that, but I'm sure, like, being a nurse isn't a walk in the park either.

Yeah, that's very true. The highs and lows. I feel like in nursing, you get a lot more highs and lows in a particular shift. So, you know, you, you know, you're having a 12 hour shift, so you sleep, you start your day, you have so much energy, it's going well. And then you could have an emergency C section or something happened to a baby, and then you go low, and then you're running into another room to help another mom out. So you're going high versus I found with entrepreneurship, it's not as drastic because I'm not recessive babies. But you can still have the same highs and lows in, like one day. Like, literally you could have so much excitement from one person or a company that you know is interested. And then at the same time, I had a doctor who told me that he didn't have problems with needles, so he didn't understand how his patients would. And like, I was so rattled by, like, how can you, how can you be a doctor Again, like the highs and lows, but not as like, you know, life saving.

Yeah, yeah, because I, I mean, my hypothesis is that the, the issue that, you know, outside people Looking in that don't understand is like, oh, you're your own boss. Like, if you're working too hard, just give yourself a break. Right? But I think, I think, you know, in my experience with working with startups, like, a lot of where like the start of depression would come from is because we as entrepreneurs, like, we never leave work, right? Like the, the problems. And, and you know, I think work life balance has a lot to do with this. But when you, even when you're at a hospital, you leave the hospital, you can kind of try and, you know, place it in a box, literal or figurative, right? Whereas, you know, when you're running your own business, it's. And it's true even now because we're all in our offices, in our houses and our whatevers, but, like, we can't put it away in a box and just close that door. It's, it's constantly on. And I think that's, that's like a really interesting discussion that I like to have because I think not even today, even though we have labels for it, like, not enough people talk about this part of the journey. Because I think outside looking in, even people that are not part of the startup community, like my buddies, like, they always look at me and go like, oh, what you're doing is so interesting. Like, you can control your own hours and you know, all the, all the perks that come with this lifestyle. But like, I think that's what's fascinating for me about this Covid situation is because when people have started to work from home, that sort of seeps into them too, right? Like, people who are like bankers or financial experts now, they work at home and they realize like, hey, I can't just shut off at 5, right? So, like, that, that's always been really.

Interesting to me think too, that part of like, you're always working, but then also it's your whole life. So, like, my partner is like, well, what did you do today? And like, we had to. Maybe that's a great point. Is like, when you start a business, like, you have to say to your partner, like, don't. It was like he was judging me. Like, what did you do today? Like, did you do enough? Like, I was always defending myself, but he's more interested. And then your family wants to know what you're doing. And then like, you know, if something didn't go well, then everyone knows. And yeah, entrepreneurship is. You just gotta be a tough cookie. I did a lot of paperwork today and my husband was like, you look really happy. And I Was like, yeah, when we make it bae, I'm just gonna be the office manager for a company. Someone else can do this.

You gotta do what you enjoy, right?

Yeah.

Can you just touch a little bit on maybe like family support? Because I think we like bits and bytes. We like to dive more into just, just the, the surface level. So. Yeah, like, what about, like, how does entrepreneurship kind of affect your husband and you've mentioned a couple times and maybe other parts of your family.

Yeah. So husband wise, he's so supportive. So he's. I think it's way easier to start a company when there's a bit of a team. So he couldn't do it full time. A bit of backstory to me. I have type 1 diabetes and I also have multiple sclerosis. So I personally cost over 100 grand a year in medication. So no matter what, we've always kind of relied on him and insurance to have, you know, money to support my medications alone. So there was never a point at which we could just both like, quit our jobs and, you know, jump into this fully. So I quit my job right away and just did it. But he's pretty wonderful. He's got an engineering background. That's how his brain works. So he's really loved how things have been developed. I'm the people person and you know, you know the sort of. I'm learning to get better at sales. I'm not a pushy person. It's against my character, so. And he's a bit more pushy. So, you know, things like that are really good. I think when you start something that other people can see and believe in, it's way easier. So my sister works in Cisco. She's an account manager. Actually. She just got promoted and she now has the city of Toronto, which is huge.

Sweet.

Wow, congrats. Sure.

Cisco has been incredibly positive about what we're doing and my sister just like promotes me to everybody. So we ended up getting in, being highlighted as a company that was using health tech for good in Cisco's innovation center in Toronto. And that all came from my sister being like, super. You know, she's like, you need to meet my sister. Look what she's doing. Yeah, really supportive and great. But. But I also feel very lucky. Like my husband's had a great job. I started working when I was 17. And so, yeah, we're pretty stable right now. But you always have that pressure where you're like, it all crumble.

Awesome.

Yeah.

So I just had a few more questions then. So now that you've been working with VR technology and med tech. Do you see like in your own personal thoughts, like, do you think there's a future for VR technology? Like in other practices maybe, or even like other, like, yeah, I'm not sure. So I'm not super familiar with the medical field, but, like, how do you think VR can impact the medical industry?

I think one of the best ways VR helps is great distraction tools. I think it's really important for medical professionals to remember that it's a tool, but also to remember that, like, it is so, so incredible for training. So a perfect example of this is when you train to scrub in the or you do you have a teacher beside you, you watch them scrub, which is where you're gowned up and you pass instruments and you know, you're in between the doctor and the nurse who's not sterile. So if something goes wrong, you're there putting sutures on. You know, it's very, very intense. And so the training for that is you watch someone do it once, they stand beside you and you do it awkwardly and then you do another one by yourself, and then they just watch you do one. Well, there's something called. So when you're having a baby, if something goes really, really wrong and you can't stop bleeding, they basically will take out your uterus. So it's called a hysterectomy. The training for the hysterectomy was they handed me the tools in normal, like, not sterile. And I just looked at the tools and were like, okay, I've memorized the tools. If the doctor asked them, I just passed them. Like, that's not like, you know, when you're in an emergency situation, that's terrible. Well, my first C section ever by myself. I the. When you've had a C section before, if you have too many contractions, the lining of your uterus can open. It's called abruption, and it can kill mom and baby. So it's very, very scary. That happened my first C section. So normally if you can't stop the bleeding, that turns into a hysterectomy. And the first time I ever tried VR for nursing training, I was like, oh my God, I would have died for this. As like in nursing school and when you're, you know, when you become a full term nurse because the first catheter you put in someone is some poor patient who doesn't know that it's your first time and you just, you know, wing it. So training is incredible distraction. And like with COVID and you know, how much we're all gonna have to be social distancing now. Like, if you think about people who still have to get surgeries and kids who have to go for surgeries, like, we used to bring them into the hospital and do a tour and, you know, we try to take away the fear of people in masks, you know, and get them to feel comfortable. Well, that's not a reality. You know, moms who are having babies at one point this year couldn't even have their partners with them. Like, so VR is like, amazing for that sort of stuff.

I have heard like, some stories of like, new med tech coming out, especially, like, VR medical training and seems like, you know, like you experienced it yourself. So I hope that it does become more of like a popularized, like, method of teaching because, you know, I think especially now with like, Covid, like, you see a lot more like retail stores or like different businesses really upping their technology game just to keep up with what's happening around the world. So things start rolling the ball, especially in the medical field.

Sorry. When you're introducing Luna to people in different medical fields, whether it's nurses or doctors or etc. Do you find that there's a stigma about VR?

Yeah, the first thing is that people haven't tried it recently. So I don't like, the first viewer I ever actually did try was my husband had a drone and I put on like the goggles where you really crappy ones and you can control it and, you know, it makes you feel nauseous. A lot of people right away are like, oh, well, it's gonna be dizzying. It's gonna make kids feel sick or adults. I find that then you get the opposite where you get like. So the Rand Goldman's like the head of Emerge at BC Children's Hospital, and he also runs their VR pain clinic. So he is like, ecstatic about VR and like, what it can do and knows the benefits. So I kind of find you get. You get both sides. Some are really, like, hesitant. And then others are like, if they're tech people, a lot of nurses don't want to, like, do the. They just don't. They don't believe in themselves that they can do it. Like, so if they have trouble using a cell phone, like they're an older nurse, then they're not going to want to headset. But we created it to be like, you literally turn it on and connect it, and then it stays connected all day so that you can do patient after patient with one click of a button. And that was number one for time efficiency. But also like, I didn't want people to, I didn't want VR and the tech to be a barrier to even try something that could really help people.

So yeah, and like, what's, what's really been like the breakthrough for, for people like that, in your opinion, you know, getting them to actually try? Because I know there's like, depending on who it is, some people would be nervous about technology. I also think like the way that VR has been marketed thus far, like, you know, there's a lot of gaming and there's a lot of like, oh, this is like a toy versus like this is actual real world functionality. Especially when we get into training and stuff like that. Right. Like what, what do you think is, is the breaking point for, for people to actually give it, give it a shot as a serious thing, not just like, oh, I'm put this on and check out this magical world for a sec.

Yeah, I think number one is the. So before I even actually started the company, and I think this is really important for any entrepreneur, I surveyed over 100 healthcare professionals in all realms. So I did blood technicians, doctors, nurses from all different areas. I wanted people who worked with babies, kids, you know, older adults. And these are all the questions I asked, you know, like, would you use VR? What are the barriers to you using it? Do you believe it could change how quickly you give a needle? So for example, if I get a patient who's scared of needles, a needle should take 90 seconds. But you could spend like five to 10 minutes fighting with someone and it's horrible. Like as a nurse, it's like really stressful. Like, I'm sweaty, you're sweaty, everyone's sweaty. It's not like a fun experience because everyone's so stressed out. So I think it's really important for we do demos, which I think is key. I think the more VR grows and expands, the more everybody in VR will benefit. I also think research. So they've been studying it for 19 years, which most healthcare practitioners don't know. There's been, you know, it used to be a huge computer that you had to have cords and you're connected. So that's obviously going to be a quick barrier because they don't want to spend the money and they don't want to have all this stuff in their way with how great computers are and you know, will continue to be. They're so small and compact and mobile now that, you know, once they see, actually try it, they see the reaction from kids and how much it can change, and they have the evidence behind it. I find people start to soften a little bit towards, like, okay, well, let's try it then. So I also have a big passion for this. So it's like, you know, I personally.

Take a needle every time I eat.

So I'm a human pincushion. I've given thousands of needles. Like, I'm an absolute expert, and I really, really just want to change kids. First introduction into needles, and then adults who have had negative experiences to help them not stress about a vaccine for two weeks, but instead be like, okay, I know I can cope with this. It's going to be like a. It's not going to be fun, but it's also. It's not going to be like, a fun procedure, but it's also going to be, like, fun in the way of, like, let's see if we can try something new. So I'm a bit, you know, excited about it, which sometimes helps.

I love the way that Luna VR is gonna be changing a lot of the perspective of, like, you know, being scared of even just, like, any medical procedure. Like, okay. The way that a lot of people have these fear of dentists. Like, all these sharp objects. Like, you know, I can see it, like, going into, like, dental technology. Like, I. Like, if I'm getting a tattoo filled out, like, I would love to just have a VR headset on, just, like, in my own world while it's all happening.

Like, I hate the dentist. Like, I get that one. Like, no problem.

Well, they already give us sunglasses, right? Like, I. I guess it's for splash or. I don't really know what they give us sunglasses for.

I always thought it was for the light, you know, like, the light that they pull over.

I don't. I don't know. I wouldn't mind a headset. I mean, like, they also have those TVs up at the top, right? Like, you know, TVs like, what, 300 bucks?

Yeah. Yeah. And it's the noise, Right. I think that's the hardest part is, like, the VR is. It's just taking over everything in your body versus just like, yeah, I hate the dentist. So staring and then she's talking to you, and I'm just like, I don't want to see you. I just want to pretend that I'm not here right now.

And I was like, I don't want to see these, like, sharp drills up on my.

It's the sound, too. It's all the senses.

Yeah.

But, you know, VR just encloses you out. So you go into Zen.

Did we just expose the Luna expansion?

Oh, no. Yeah, no, that's what our number one question is. Dentistry. And I'm like, well, many good investment, you know.

Awesome. Yeah. So I just have a couple more questions then, like, hey, so now that we're talking so much about, like, med tech and stuff. Okay, let's say that you had all the resources available to you. If you could imagine a piece of technology to help benefit, you know, practitioners, doctors, nurses, what would it be like? What would you imagine? It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to be limited to VR technology, but, like, you know, something that you see is a big problem right now in the industry that, you know, needs to be addressed kind of similar to, you know, fear of needles. And that's how Luna came out.

I think there's, like, depending on what type of person you are in patients. So, you know, if you're. If you're someone who's healthy and you're not chronically ill, I think something that puts information all together. So it seems like you're always seeing this med tech where it's like, hey, you know, you should be able to walk into a walk in clinic and that information be with you and on you or in the class, you know, however they're putting it, wherever they're putting it, that it's safe and secure, obviously, but that if you then had to go to emergency, you're not then recounting every drug you've had or that random allergic reaction. You know, like, these are things that are, like, historic. We should be having all that information very easily, readily available for chronic health. So, like, for me, I, you know, I have a whole diabetes team. I have a Ms. Specialist. I see. I have an infusion every six months. So for me, I think. I think, yeah, something relaxing when I go to those. Those clinics and appointments. So, like, for example, with ms, so you can. I had a huge attack in January. I actually lost the ability to walk for two months, so I had to get treatment for that. And they basically took all the plasma out of my body. So I did five days of continuous plasma transfusions, which is not a fun experience, but, you know, you kind of get like. Because you're going in every day and you're. You're getting needles, you know, and people are like, oh, we're so good with needles. I actually was, like, getting panicky in the middle of them, and I was like, this is when I was like, okay, yeah, the VR is amazing. VR is really Great for quick procedures. And they're still working on VR for long term procedures. But that is one that I would love because, you know, we forget what people go through. So you look at someone, you have no idea that they have health complications. And as a nurse who hasn't had a break has, you know, really busy and like having tons of patients, sometimes we actually forget to just like stop and think what they're going through. And so maybe you could have a really cool technology that kind of, I don't know, it connects, it relaxes you and puts you in a good state of mind before you even walk into the room and somehow connects what that state of mind or what you're thinking about or your biggest concerns to the practitioner you're about to see. So it just like flows a little bit more easily. But to imagine what that would be like, I have no idea.

So I love that you're always focusing more on like the patient experience as well by also considering like, you know, your co workers and your nurses and your peers as well. Like it is a two way street and it's amazing that you know. And then I guess my last question is generally we kind of ask this for all of our bits and bytes guests. If you could create your dream team so you can choose from like celebrities, historians, maybe like kings or gods, it doesn't matter, no boundary whatsoever. But if you could create a dream team, let's say about three to five people, like who would they be and why did you select those people? Putting you on the spot is a little bit here.

Yes. If money wasn't an issue and I could just do this job with like my dream people, my first one would be like still my husband because it just, we work really well together and it's a joy to be, it's a joy to see your partner. So I got married at 19. I was a little baby getting married and you know, it's been eight years, I'm 27. But it's just there's some things that he does where you're like, wow, I forgot I'm so impressed by this. Or I love you for this. So I would love to keep working with him. My sister, that one I was talking about at Cisco, Sarah is her name and she's a powerhouse. Like, she's like the biggest advocate. She loves what she does and we laugh like no tomorrow. So she would definitely be on my team. Celebrities. Like, my celebrity crush has always been Kevin Hart.

Oh yes, Kevin Hart.

I like, he's so short and I'm so tall. I'm 5 11. And I just beside him and I just think, you know, I think he'd be really funny to work with.

You can sell some software too.

Yeah, yeah. For that one, that trip we did, we listened to his book on audio and he's reading it, and it was like 22 hours or something of him reading, and I was just dying.

Give me the stress relief. Stress relief ball.

Yeah. And then I want someone who's like, you know, a shark. Like someone who would, like, take, you know, like, take control and really do it. But I'm trying to think of someone nice who's like that. I don't know who's a female. Could be a male too, but who's like a female powerhouse. And I don't know, trying to think.

I'm trying to remember the names from like, you know, like Shark Tank. Because that's like the first thing comes in my mind when you say Shark.

Shark Tank, yeah. Darlene, I think, is that name. But, yeah, I don't know, I think that maybe that's just it. Kevin Hart, my husband and my sister.

Kevin Hart is a great addition. We had another guest. I forgot who it was, but they were like, I would want the rock on my team. Like, what about Kevin Hart? You know, the power duo? They'd be amazing together.

Well, this episode, I thought of another one that would be great because you said reality doesn't matter, so I would want Iron Man.

Yeah, but are you meaning like the real Iron man or like Robert Downey Jr. Cause they're too.

No, I need the brains and the multiple personality and, you know, all the craziness that comes with that.

And the jet engines wouldn't just say, Bruce Banner might be a safer choice here because, you know, safe. I don't know about safe.

Kevin Hart's gonna need to play mediation.

I was just thinking, like, Spider man, because I love Spider man, but I don't think he's brain wise. Yeah.

No, that's awesome. I love these answers. Yeah. So that's it for us, I think. Thank you so much, Naomi, for joining us on this episode of Bits and Bites. I know we got to miss out on the food challenge that we were looking so forward to.

I throw up so easily. I was like, I'm happy.

Well, I guess it's a good blessing in disguise timing. Thank you so much, Stanley. I'm really glad that you joined us for this session today. And for those of you that are interested in learning more about Luna VR, we will be sharing her contact information and some websites available that's related to Luna and you can learn more about it. And if you want to connect directly, Naomi, is there any way that if, you know, someone wants to reach out with any questions, is there a preferred way that they can reach out to you?

Yeah, definitely. Just it's my full name, so it's Naomi. V A N H A L T e r e nmail.com. you can do my personal email there and I'll get it really quick. All right. Yeah.

Thanks so much again.

All right.

Thanks, Naomi.

Thanks for having me.