Designing a Business Around Your Flaws With Internet Marketing Pioneer Rich Schefren

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Welcome back to the List Building Lifestyle. My name is Igor K. Fetz, and today I'm hosting a living legend, Mr. Rich Sheffrin, the guy behind the first webinar, the ultimate Internet marketing manifesto, the first, I think, viral report in the digital marketing space. I mean, he's probably one of the forefathers of many techniques that we're using today to make money. And I'm pretty sure whatever techniques you're using in your online business right now, they could be tracked to either Rich or one of his students or partners that he's working with. His testimonial shelf is full of big names that we all consider gurus, and it's a true pleasure to be able to spend the next 30, 60 minutes with him picking his brain. So, Rich, welcome to the List Building Lifestyle.

Excited to be here, Igor. Both of us go way back on, you know, being online early on, so this should be a fun conversation. We both have a lot of perspectives, so I think it'll be fun.

Yeah, absolutely. I still remember when I was just getting going, I think Frank Kern was launching Mass Control 2.0. He did that whole video series with a tiny little guitar that he was playing and things like that. And that was the time. Also, when I think you released the Giant report, it was one of the first few instances of somebody just putting together a really valuable piece of content and it being just going, just spreading across, and all of a sudden it's everywhere. Everyone's talking about it, which is a technique that doesn't seem to work as much anymore. And we'll get into the whole conversation about diminishing returns in a bit. But first, I wanted to share with you how when I was on my way up, I was listening to somebody who was a student of yours who worked privately with you, Alex Jeffries. And I was working with Alex on something I don't remember What? And I asked him a question, and he says, well, Igor, you know, if you want to get better answers, you should ask better questions. And that's something that Rich taught me. I was like, yeah, I guess you're right, and was really profound. So since that moment, I really started, you know, spending more time on the question than I would on the answer. Because what I've learned is if I could just phrase that question correctly, then the answer could almost pop at me on its own. So can you talk us through this concept maybe, and share with us how did you come up with it, or maybe where you learned it? And because it's. It's a tremendous problem solving skill that I think many people are missing today.

Yeah, I'd love to. And I'd love to hear more, like what you. How it impacted you and what, you know, what distinctions you made from it. For me, I would say that, you know, in my experience with coaching entrepreneurs, quite often they don't spend enough time thinking overall. And that kind of occurred to me in all the conversations that I've had with entrepreneurs. And. And, you know, I have pretty bad ADD and have my own set of flaws. And so I've kept a journal for the last 30 plus years. And one of the reasons that I've kept a journal is that I found that for myself that a lot of times I could go on autopilot and like, two, three weeks could go by, a month could go by where I really didn't do much. But, um. And so, because I kind of was, like, just going through the motions, and I find that I traditionally will do that if I don't have a place to, like, constantly check in to kind of remind myself what's important and all those kinds of things. And so I spend a lot of time in my journal, and I kind of do my thinking in my journal. Right. Like, and it's like a place to kind of stay abreast of what's going on and where I'm trying to get to. And so, um, you know, in my journal, oftentimes I will be reflecting on, you know, either what's currently going on or what I hope to go on and. Or what I hope, you know, will happen in the future. And then that kind of drives down into getting really clear about what are the questions that I need answered in order to get to where I want to go to. Right, right. And so I'm really clear. Like, I want. I'm here right now. I want to be there in order for me to get there. I believe I need to know X, Y, and Z. And so then I want to make sure one, I really need X, Y, and Z. And then if so, where can I get the answer to that? And then. And I'll circle back on this in a second. And then in addition to that, I ask another question behind that, which, you know, I. This applies to goal setting, but it also applies to questions in that, what is it that I have to notice for? Right? So, like, if. Approach, if I have this goal and, like, of achieving something, doing something, what have you. The next question is, Is, like, what do I need to be noticing for to alert me of opportunities for that. Right? And most people don't ask themselves that question, like, with a goal, right? Like, they don't say, like, okay, this is the goal. What can I notice for that might help me get there faster. And the same with questions, right? Most people have very fuzzy questions. They don't really. They're not clear. They're asking to know as opposed to be able to do something. And so I find that, you know, this came up so often in coaching because oftentimes, like, they, you know, an entrepreneur would be telling me about a test that they're running like, or that they want to test, and I'd be like, well, what is the. What are you going to do with that answer? Like, I don't understand, like, what the bigger question is being answered. And then they would oftentimes not know either. Right? And so then it was like, okay, so then you're doing this test, but you really don't have a question that you're answering, and what kind of questions could we develop? Right, Right. So I think it's. For a lot of people, it's just pure, I don't want to say laziness, because, like, maybe most people haven't had the experience of having, like, thought through something and refined something down to a specific question that if they got the answer, would make a profound difference. But that's. That's the work that I do in my journal. And when I'm really clear, I guess, about the importance of that question, right? Like, let's say, you know, I want. My business is 5 million. I wanted to do 10 million. And I spent some time writing in my journal about, like, what needs to change in the business in order for us to go from 5 to 10 million. And now, like, I've boiled that down to a specific area of our business that is weak, that needs to change in order for us to get to 10 million. And I'm convinced that that's the thing, right? And now, so the question is, like, how do I get our copywriting team to double our output? Because, like, that, to me is the thing that's going to get us from 5 to 10 million right now. It's like, taking time to really, like, think about that question, right? And then to very quickly go to, well, who do I know who has the answer to that question? How can I ask that question? And then start, right? And if I don't get the right answer to them, reflect back and say, like, am I asking the right question? But I'm not sure that I'm answering your question, like, as it relates to that. So, no.

First of, it's really cool to, to hear your experience with journaling, because I've been doing my journaling on and off. I've only, I'm only 34, so I only started journaling around 18, 19 or something like that because I learned that that's a concept, that that's something like successful people do. Plus, I've always been very emotional and very, you know, my head would always be full of thoughts, and I needed an outlet where, Where I could, like, dump all of them. So if you look into my, into my, if you will journal over the years, and I try to. I sometimes go. Would go on paper, sometimes I'll write in my Evernote. But it's. It's almost like I'm a little bitch and I'm just crying about things, and it's just.

I think we all do that. Yeah.

Just dropping everything that's in my head into. Into the document. But I, I. That you said almost like lazy, right? I know not everyone's lazy as far as thinking goes, but a lot of people are. And that's something that I've noticed a lot, especially since moving to Canada, because living in Israel, people are really active thinkers. Everyone has an opinion. Once I remember going to Genius Network and meeting Dan Sullivan and told him that I was from Israel. So he said, oh, you know why? There's why you shouldn't be a coach in Israel. I said, why? He says, because it's hard to be a coach in a country that has 8 million coaches. So, you know, everybody has an opinion. But over here, it seems like people settle into a groove or they sort of abide by a standard or a norm, and they don't really go outside of it. They don't really question the status quo much. And it seems like the entrepreneurs are the only ones who, I would say, aren't lazy thinkers. And another concept which you mentioned is specificity. I think that's even a bigger one because the more specific the question, the more specific the goal, the more specific your description of where you're heading, the more likely you are to get there, right? Like if you put in an address into your sat nav or GPS and you don't put the exact address, you're not going to get there. It simply won't know how to take you there. So without getting too much into the law of attraction thing, I don't mean it to become like metaphysical or anything, but it goes down to what I think Napoleon Hill spoke about in Notwitting the Devil, which is one of my all time favorite books, because one of the, you know, one of the tools of the devil that he describes in the book is, you know, drifters, right? So we want, the devil wants people to not have goals, to not think in specifics and to basically drift along in life. And, and that's how, you know, the devil takes hold of their minds.

Well, you know, yeah, that's a. It's very easy to get caught up into the drift of life, right? And you know, I'm a big UFC fan and I've been a UFC fan for about, about 10 years, right? And before that I was not. That's the only sport that I watch, right? And before that I watched no sports and I had very like, few, like, extracurricular type of activities other than work and studying stuff related to work. And it's only, you know, I'm in my 50s now and it's only now, like when I finish my day at like 5 or 6 o', clock, right? Like there are times when I am mentally drained when like, you know, I'm getting older now, right? Like I'm mentally drained. And like, there's the op option of like doing some thinking work or maybe watching ufc, right? Where there's no thinking, right? None. And, and I'll sometimes default to UFC because, like, my brain is taxed, right? And I'm clear that like, I just don't want to do any heavy lifting with my brain right now. The, what's interesting though is that I think that I was really impacted like a bunch of years back, maybe like four or five years ago, I was really impacted by a gentleman by the name of Thiago Fort. He wrote a book called Build a Second Brain. He has a course called Building a Second Brain. I found him maybe it was even longer than five years ago, but it was a while back. I found him because I was doing research on Personal knowledge management. And I came across one of his articles, and his article was, like, insanely great. And he was pulling in stuff that I had taught, like theory of constraints. But I didn't see the connections that he was putting together in this article. And I was kind of blown away by it. And so I ended up trading him some of my time for his time because I told him, like, look, man, your stuff is great and has to get out there, but nobody's searching. Personal knowledge management, like, you know, that's like, you know, you got to meet people earlier on. And, you know, I learned a lot from him. And one of the things that I learned from him is something that Richard Feynman used to do that. And Richard Feynman, you know, was a famous scientist, MIT mathematician, and he would always keep a dozen problems in his mind. And so there's a quote from one of his colleagues, and this is the quote from one of his colleagues on how, like, Richard Feynman, like, produced so many outstanding things. You have to keep a dozen of your favorite problems constantly present in your mind, although, by and large, they will be in a dormant state. Every time you hear or read a new trick or a new result, test it again against each of your 12 problems to see whether it helps. Every once in a while, there'll be a hit and people will say, how did he do it? He must be a genius. In other words, Feynman's approach was to keep a list of the dozen of his favorite problems. These were fascinating, open questions that he found himself returning to again and again in his research. Right. And so you can't, in this day and age with, like, the proliferation of information, like, everywhere, and you're never. And now, like, with ChatGPT and like, just all these crazy advancements, it's so easy to, one, lose yourself, just get swept up into the drift. Right. And two, even if you don't get swept up into the drift, to just not be able to manage the constant flows of information coming at you. And so having, like, being clear the questions that you're trying to answer to grow your business to be the questions that you have in your head overall, just bigger questions that are the things that you, like, allocate time to makes going through information processing stuff just a lot more clear about how to approach the day. And, you know, this is a total tangent, but something that I'd love to just bring up really quickly. So, you know, I did coach a lot of people early on online. I was one of the first online business coaches, and A lot of the stuff that I taught is kind of mainstream now, right? Like, and it's. A lot of the stuff I taught was not stuff invented by me. It was stuff that I just got access to a lot earlier than most people in our market, I guess, because I worked for Accenture and Anderson Consulting and stuff. But one thing that I taught that never made it, like, popular, but is, like, one of the most important things that I taught, I felt so, you know, I taught things like, you know, build a business around your strength, and everybody knows that now, right? Like build processes and systems and that your business is kind of broken up by just processes and systems and projects, and how do you kind of break those up? And those are all, like, standard stuff. But one thing that I did teach that I don't see being taught is that is a mistake that I think most entrepreneurs make when they first start out or even somewhat even after they've started out, and they might even be doing halfway decent, and that is that they build a business around their mythical self that they like. When they think about the business of their dreams, they're also thinking about themselves playing at some absurdly high level in that business of their dreams. And the truth is that personal change is really difficult. And so what I always did with my clients was, let's get really clear about your flaws, what's, like, what you like, what you don't like, what you can do, what you can't do, you know, et cetera. And then let's design the business to be successful without you ever having to change, because the likelihood of you changing makes the likelihood of your business success a lot less. So we're going to just, like, design this business so it can be successful based on who you are right now. And so, you know, I did that in my own business around my flaws, and helped a lot of my clients. And I think that a lot of entrepreneurs don't really kind of recognize the fact that, you know, it's their kingdom. They make the rules, and they can design this to. To make their flaws irrelevant and not have to focus on things that they're bad at. So, like, in our business, when I first started and I wrote those reports, I was writing those reports because each of those reports then released a program that I was going to coach and do live. I was going to do it one time, live, and then from there, it would be a product that we would offer ongoingly. And the reason it was done that way is because I couldn't be trusted to complete a program on my Own like, I needed a crowd in order to disappoint, because if I didn't, I would, like, never get it done. So my business was designed so that. How could a perfectionist procrastinator who wouldn't get courses done on their own be forced to get courses done in a way that keeps the business going? And there's a lot of other examples, but I think that that's a. That's something that a lot of entrepreneurs get wrong. And, you know, one of the things that they could get clear about, like, in the questions that they ask themselves, is what specifically needs to change in this business for it to be a lot more successful if I don't change at all? And. And they would get some interesting answers, I'm sure, to that question.

Yeah. First off, I definitely don't see other people talk about this. And this is. This is big because it can actually go not only into your business, but into your personal life. Because I've seen this play out many times before, both in my personal life and business. But here's an example of this from my personal life, which is very simplistic, but it's so, so, so true. Basically, at one point, I realized I didn't want my wife to cook anymore. Not, not to say that she's bad at it. It's just. It would take a lot of time, and it would actually make her feel miserable because she would always have to be deciding what to cook. And then she would make it that she would be worried, like, is it good or is it not? And, you know, she would always, like, be stressed out about it. So I said, let's. Let's bring someone else to do it. Eventually. It took me about six to 12 months or so, but she agreed, and we brought someone else to do it a couple of times a week. And what's interesting is that this person would prep the food, and I was. When I. When I wanted to eat, I had to take the food out and, you know, warm it up and eat it. Now, what I noticed is that I can only sustain up to 2 degrees of separation between the food and me. Otherwise, the system fails. So, example. So let's say, you know, I open the fridge and there's a few boxes, and there's like. Let's say there's potato and there's chicken. So I take the potato and the chicken out, put it on the plate, put it in the microwave, warm it up, done. Okay, I'm eating. But if there's ingredients that are in the fridge that I take out, put on the plate. And there's also something else that I need to, for example, cut. Like if there's, like, you know, if I wanted a salad or something, right? So I need to take a couple of things and ingredients and cut them up and put them in a bowl, etc. So the cutting and putting in a bowl, that doesn't work for me. So anytime I needed to do that, I actually defaulted away from it and went for something that didn't require it. And so I realized that there can only be, like, up to two stages, which means taking the food and warming it, right? I can't go take the food, cut the food and warm it. Like, that's not going to work. So there's one. One tiny little step in between success and failure. And then just, you know, I kind of said, well, that's. I guess that's what I am. And then I taught the person who was cooking to prep the food in a way that didn't require me to cut anything or to do anything. And I became a much happier person as a result because I wasn't frustrated anymore about having food that I couldn't eat because of my own flaw. And I think that's such a tremendous tip because I see a lot of people get sucked into this positive thinking or motivational thinking where they're like, watch a YouTube video where Les Brown is giving a talk, and they're like, damn it, this is it. This is it. Tomorrow I'm totally training for UFC or something. You know, like, they're like, I'm totally going to change all of my habits. I'm going to change my diet, I'm going to change my schedule. But you see that that ain't going to happen. There's a reason why, you know, you're acting this way. You've got habits that were formed over the years. You've got life circumstance that you can't just ignore. Like, you say, okay, I'm going to wake up at 4, 5am to go to the gym. But you know what? If you've got a newborn and you only go to bed at three, you're not going to wake up at five. It's not going to happen. So being able to admit that to yourself and structure your life and your business around, you know, taking your flaws and your strength into consideration is an amazing thing. Like, at one point, I found myself shifting from just being very secluded, just writing my emails and mailing, you know, sending my ads out, et cetera, to actually bringing in more people into my world through Joint ventures and things like that. It required doing calls. And very quickly, within a few months, I discovered that call is a draining experience for me. Like, I can invest two hours into writing copy and that won't be as draining for me as having a one hour phone call with somebody for some reason. So, you know, I noticed that whenever I would do calls in the morning, it would totally kill the rest of my day. Like, like you said, like you want, you don't want to do heavy lifting with your brain. So that was me. Like by 11 o' clock, I'm like, like a vegetable. I want to go watch football or, or something. So the way I addressed that is I shifted my schedule to do calls later in the day. So I would do my copywriting in the morning, but. Or reading in the morning. And then I would do the, the calls after lunch because after lunch I was feeling down anyway. I was like heavy. So, you know, I would do the calls and I would push through the calls and I didn't feel guilty anymore for not being productive that day.

That's interesting is it all calls?

All calls. Every sales call, coaching call, interview call, meeting with a team member. And it doesn't have to be about business either. Like if I have a phone call with a property management company or if I have a phone call where I'm like talking to a lawyer about my traffic ticket that I want to cancel out, it can be anything at all. So I pushed all the calls to the afternoon because I would just not pick up the phone in the morning. Just period. I was so protective of my morning hours.

That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I have it where it's more like, I guess for me it's more that people's energy is infectious for me. And so if I'm talking to people who are up and high energy, I tend to feel up and have high energy too. And if I'm talking to someone who is down and low energy, generally they will take me down and low energy. Right. Okay. So for me, like, I'm careful with who I talk to and when. Like, you know, because there are a lot of people I can talk to in the morning that actually like, make like the conversation is empowering and charging. Like, but, but then there are people that like, yeah, I have to make at the end of the day because like, I don't want that, you know, I don't want that vibe. But, you know, and for me it's like noticing who, you know, where that person kind of lays for me, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah. And The. But I do think that, you know, I used to, when I used to do a lot of coaching, you know, I coach today, but I coach like 20 private clients. It's not like hundreds of people, right? And when I, when I was coaching hundreds of people and, and it was a mixture of group plus some one on one, you know, my schedule was slammed, right. Like, I think at the most I ever had was like close. I think it was like 187 clients. And so half an hour, what private clients? Well, group slash private. So they all got private time with me. So a half an hour every other week. So I was doing like 50 hours a week. And, and to do that many people, like I'm not prepping before the call, right? Like I can't, right? And, and each calls a half an hour and there it's. The onus is on them to get from me what they most need, right. And so the first call generally never would go well for people. They wouldn't know how to maximize the time. But by the second and third call, they did. And part of the reason like for that was as an entrepreneur you need to know what questions you need to get answered like always. And you know, a lot of the, I can trace back a lot of my success to knowing what those questions were. And then when I had the opportunity to get a question answered, I did. Right. So like, you know, even in my previous business, before I got online, I had a hypnosis center that grew into a chain of hypnosis centers. And, and I was convinced that I don't know if this guy was ever well known up in Canada, but in New York, where I grew up, he was Cy Sperling, who was not only. So he was not only the president of Hair Club for Men, he was also a client. And then his like thing blew away. And so these were ads that were all over the place. And you know, he took hair replacement back in like 80s and 90s, I guess, and made it like from a cottage industry of just like little places doing it and turned it into like a company that was advertising and offering this. And to me that was the closest thing to what I was offering in hypnosis, which was also taking it from like a cottage industry and making it more professional. And I ended up being on a panel with him at some point for early to Rise. And so I got a chance to meet him and I like, I offered to take him out for lunch. You know, I'd love to ask him some questions and could I take him out to Lunch and he agreed. And he lived down here in Florida. And so I flew down and had lunch with him and knew the questions I wanted to ask him. Right. Like up front and because like this was someone who had done something similar to what I was trying to do back then and had 20 years worth of experience and that. But knowing, only knowing what questions they ask would allow me to get the benefit of his experience. Right. And so I am constantly trying to look at my challenges and problems and obstacles and what have you and reduce them down to questions that I'm trying to answer. You know, it's just, I guess the natural way I go about it so that in my day to day, you know, when things pop up like they are triggering ideas in my head to like to answer that question related to that, you know, et cetera.

Yeah. You know, as far as questions go, I think they're really useful, especially in goal setting because goal setting has a bad replacement. People don't know how to do it. People don't like to do it. Nobody likes to set a goal and then look at it a year later and say, oh, I didn't achieve it, so it doesn't feel good. But you know, I've had, I've had issues with goal setting for the longest time until I switched the way I asked the question. I, I basically kind of tricked myself into, into making goal setting effortless. So over the years I've discovered, and I guess this is why I love being an entrepreneur, because it forces you to do a lot of self discovery. But over the years I discovered that I'm a negative driven person, that I'm way more motivated by fear, shame, embarrassment, pain than benefits, big ideas and things like that. I've been very, it's been pretty much a theme for my life. Like only stuff like that would motivate me. And instead of asking myself what would I like to achieve or how, like this is the question that never worked for me. How would I like my life to look like in five years or one year? Or describe your perfect day. You know, I wake up on the beach and that's not me. It just doesn't work like that. Like never worked for me. So I flipped the script and I just asked, if I were to die in five years from today, what would be the biggest regret, the single biggest regret that I would have on my deathbed? Like the one that I would be so, so ashamed of. And that instantly puts things into perspective. Like it doesn't even feel like effort anymore at that point to write down Your goals. Because very quickly it comes for me. So, you know, getting the right questions, sort of like spending 90% of your time thinking of the right question to ask about any problem you're facing versus trying to spend 90% of time thinking of the answer. I think that's the switch that I'd recommend for anyone who's stuck right now. Like, because you phrase it right, it's almost, you know, half solved. Really?

Yeah. You know, for me, I go about it very differently. Although that's. I find that interesting. I wrote it down. I'm gonna think about that. The. I've always been much more away from than. Than towards. Right. So away from pain versus towards pleasure. And. And what I found was that it worked really well until it didn't. That. That, you know, I was afraid of being poor. And then I became more successful than I thought I would be, or, you know, afraid of being fat, and then ended up with like a six pack. And, you know, and then it's very not motivating because that fear is now further away. It has less power. And I went through like a midlife crisis in my early 40s around that because, like, everything was better than I had hoped it would be. And yet I wasn't happy. And I didn't really know how to resolve that. And what I realized, not right away, unfortunately, was that I am. I personally, and this is just for me personally, I feel most alive when I'm in pursuit, like, pursuit of something that matters to me. And so it's always important for me to be in pursuit. And that goals for me are much more about setting the direction and getting me out of bed. And that the right goal does those two things. And that if I'm not getting out of bed excited to, like, accomplish something, then I have the wrong goal. Because what I realized, and you know, I don't think this is like news to anyone, that. But I just had enough of it for myself, that I've achieved enough goals to know that, like, the happiness, that achievement of a goal, like, it lasts for like a week or two, like, you know, and then it just kind of like fades into the ordinary. And so if achieving the goal really doesn't provide that much at the end of the day, where you really get the benefit of the goal is if it's doing what it's supposed to be doing in the day to day, which is excite you, motivate you, take, get you to take action. So as long as a goal is doing that, for me, it's the right goal. Regardless of, like, you know, whether it aligns with everything else later on. Like, that's less relevant to me nowadays. What's more relevant is, does it get me going? Does it put me into action? Does it put me into pursuit? And as long as I'm in pursuit, I'm happy. And I guess, like, just to circle back, right? Like, even having, like, these other questions that I'm trying to answer that are just in the back of my head operate as, like, kind of mini goals as I'm going through content, as I'm looking through my evernote, like, as I'm writing in my journal. They just kind of give more purpose to the things I'm doing so that there's less likelihood of wandering around aimlessly, which is so easy to do nowadays because there's a million things that want to distract you, you from social media, to other people's priorities, to, you know, everything.

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that, because I remember about. So it's been about five years and change that I've. Since I've arrived in Canada. And I remember the first New Year's that I was spending here, I think early January 2019, I was in the coffee shop, and I felt really miserable. At the time, I was working with Tom Beal, our mutual friend. And Tom actually taught me many of the concepts that he learned working with you, because you guys worked together for like, 10 years or something, right? So for a long, long time. So, you know, he taught me so many different things. And we were having conversation with him, and he was pointing out that I was operating from fight or flight all the time.

Right.

And, you know, I was telling him that. I recognize that, but I don't want my kids to be that way. Like, when. When my daughter and my son do stuff, I don't want them to be doing that out of fear or out of the desire for survival, which is how I do things. I tend to be like that. It's. It's. Everything's like crisis. Everything's a fire. It's like, if we don't fix this now, like, paranoia, you know, like, it's a lot. A lot of that in my life, in my inner world. But for my kids, I really wish they create. I really wish they did things because they wanted to do them, because they excite them. And I was wondering how much of my crisis mentality sort of was passed down with my DNA to my kids. And I don't know how that works, to be honest, but I'm hoping that growing up, in growing up In a, in a Western household of a. I don't know if I can call myself rich, you know, by today's standards, because million dollars doesn't really buy much, but at least upper middle class sort of.

Standard, we're, we're all doing okay.

Yeah. I wonder how much that will affect their vision and their ability, like the way they see the world and the way they see themselves. Because on one hand, I'm afraid for them to be unmotivated, to basically be sort of settled and be like, well, I have food, I have this, I have that, and everything's available to me. It's very convenient. So I'm not gonna strive for much. But at the same time, I don't want to scare them into it. I don't want to, like, make them paranoid and, and obsessed with survival like I was growing up, and my wife as well, who had to literally, to shoplift, you know, growing up, because they didn't have food on the table growing up. You know, three kids with a single mom and below, below poverty line. So I don't know, like, do you have any perspective on that, on how do you instill these values perhaps, or anything you've learned along the way?

I've learned a couple things. I mean, I. I would say that one of my favorite books of all time because I think it's. It's something that I naturally gravitate to, but I think it's a lesson that a lot of people could benefit from. The book is called the Courage to Be Disliked, and it's was a bestseller in Japan. I think it's also been a bestseller here in the States since. And it's about the psychology of Alfred Adler. And I've always been a fan of Alfred Adler's psychology. He was a peer of Freud and Jung, but not as well known by most people, had some very different views. And one of the things that Adler talks about is that we all have, like, what he calls our life tasks, and that's to make relationships work in work, in friendship, and in love. And that what interferes with relationships working is when we interfere on the life tasks of others, like uninvited. And so, like, it's your kid's life task to do their homework. Right. It's not your life task. And so I've always been good about, like, kind of separating those things primarily because I didn't have a lot of confidence in my own ability to enforce consistent rules. Right. Like, and I've always been told that that's a horror show if you're not consistent. So instead of being inconsistent, I was consistent in the sense that, you know, there are consequences in life to doing and not doing things. My goal is to help you avoid those consequences, like, negative consequences. But it's not. But the consequences are on you. They're not on me. So, like, at a very young age, you know, I've had. I had old daughters. They could make up their own decision whether they could go out and play or not. Like, because, like, they had to have their homework done the next day regardless. And it wasn't my job to make sure that they did their homework. It was their job to make sure that they did their homework. And if they didn't get their homework done, there'd be consequences at school. And that would, like, that would be the way it is. And I'd say that that worked really well for me in that, like, the girls got it pretty early on. And I would say that the other thing I did, which I am proud of, I think that this made a difference, was that I didn't get, because I almost did. Like, I almost got corrupted into not having appreciation for other shit other than my own stuff. Like, you know, like, the stuff that I'm interested in. Marketing, business growth, stuff like that. But, you know, like, when my oldest daughter was interested in baking, right, Like, I could go two ways with that, right? Like, I wish she was interested in something else, right, Like. Or, like, I can approach it the way I wish things were approached with me when I was younger and interested in whatever I was interested in. And so, like, when my daughter was interested in baking, great. Let's, like, let's have you be the best baker possible, right? And, like, what do we need to do that? Like, let's hire, like, a baker to come in and teach you how to bake. And let's get all the, like, stuff for baking and all the supplies and all that, right? And, like, you can. So it's kind of like with my kids, it was always like, you can be. You can be into anything you want to be into, and you can want to, like, do whatever it is you want to do, but whatever it is you want to do, I want you to want to be great at what that is. And as long as you're willing to want to be great, I will support you in any way I can. So, you know, when my kids were interested in karate, then they were going to karate all the time when they were not interested in anymore, that's fine, too. But, like, you know, always trying to instill, like, a Desire to be good or great or you know, fantastic. And, and I think that's worked out pretty well. I think that yeah, I. So I used to be completely fear based, completely motivated by like what the negative things that could happen. And then use that power like that fear to work insane hours like in crunch time to like get shit done, right. Like and go days sometimes without sleep and stuff like that. And, and it worked for me. But you can't or I couldn't continue that. Like I'm not at, you know, in my 50s now. I cannot pull back to back all nighters and be functional. Like I was in my 20s, right. Like it just not possible. And I was much more afraid of my, for my own self. Like can I work like a normal person? Is it even possible for me to work like a normal person? Because like I crammed in college, I worked this way my whole life. Like you know, and it did take a couple years to kind of reset, you know, that difference. And I still am much find it much easier to run away from something negative than to run towards something positive. But, but I find that on the positive side, breaking it up to be closer in time also works well for me. How do you know?

Like setting a goal that doesn't take or taking a big goal and breaking it down into lots of mini goals.

Yeah, like in other words like the right now like I'm working with my morning routine and I'm adjusting it and stuff like that. And so there's no other goal than just right now like being able to do that like this new routine, seven days, like for seven days in a row. And if I do it seven days in a row, it's a big deal, right. Like you know, the, the goal is to do it every day consistently, forever. But that's not where I'm at right now. So you know, it's like small goals seem to be big scary things far away move me and very like immediate things positive can move me. But big long term things far away don't seem to have much power for me, you know, and, and so I just have figured out a way to kind of like work around that. And I think that that's part of, part of growing up is understanding like how you work and how to get the best out of yourself based on that, you know, like your own rules for how you need to operate that ideally like you've lived for 30, 40 some odd years, you should have some inclination of how you work best, like what works best for you, you know, for me like that's a big part of my journal, too. Just reminding myself of, like, all the things that I've tried over all the years and, like, the things that stand out as working best, like working towards a timer, like using a mind map early in a project so that I have a place to, like, put all my ideas. You know, these are things that I've just learned over time, like, of what works best for me and not losing that and just, like, knowing what works best for me and being okay with it. And I think that that's part of, like, growing up and just understanding yourself better is. Is that process.

Yeah, yeah, I. I agree. I agree. When you put it that way, that it's a part of growing up is when you are responsible for figuring out what's working for you, what's not working for you, and to. They take this full ownership of if things don't look like, you know, they don't look well in life. Like, if you don't like the way things are in life, then it's up to you to change the habits, the circumstance, the.

The.

The people, if necessary. Because I. I think, you know, what you've mentioned about people's energy being contagious. Contagious for you is a huge, huge thing. Because I Remember in the 48 laws of power by Robert Green, which is another really cool book that I really, really like to reread sometimes, you know, he talks about people's attitude being contagious, and he warns about hanging out with people who complain too much or people who get sick too much, because that. That shit kind of wears off on you and you kind of start modeling that or you start behaving in a similar way, which makes sense. I mean, they. They talk about, like, tell me what your five closest friends make, then I'll tell you what you make. Or they talk about how if you want to be making more or doing better, then you should get into a room full of people who make more and do better, because you will automatically strive to match what's happening in that room. We're getting close to time. And I promise to touch on one more thing, which is not so much personal development, but it's about the game of diminishing returns. It's something that I've only heard you and you alone talk about in the entire Internet. Another author that I believe mentioned briefly was Seth Godden, but it kind of got lost in the mix. I really think that this is a message that everyone needs to hear. Anyone who's time right now, whether it's social media or any other marketing technique. So I remember when you were, I think it was last year or year before last, you released a video. And in that video you spoke about doing the first webinar or running the first automated webinar and doing a product launch, etc, and how back when you first started doing that, you had X, like your ROI was X.

Right.

And then over time, the more you did it and the more other people saw you do it and then modeled after you, and all of a sudden it spread and everyone's doing it. All of a sudden the average return from doing something like that was x divided by 1020 and then x divided by 100. And then all of a sudden you found yourself investing way more time, way more effort, way more money to basically get 1/10 or 100th of an ROI of something that used to work really well, but doesn't seem to work as well anymore. And so it created this and that happened to you over and over and over again. So can you talk a little bit about that? I do realize that I just pretty much shared the whole idea, but can you talk a little bit about that the way the industry is developing and what are you seeing right now in relation to this concept of diminishing returns?

Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's, it's something that most people when they're exposed to it, think it's obvious in hindsight, but they don't operate that way before. Kind of like thinking it through. And that is that no matter what strategy, tactic, et cetera, as it relates to marketing. And this happened offline as well, but it happens online too. There's a law of diminishing returns over time that as the, the more people that do attack like a strategy over time, the less powerful, the less effective it is over time. And so it's less powerful. And also you have to do more in order to stand out using that. And that what I found, which was really interesting when I looked at my own successes and those of my clients, what I found was, is that my own successes as well as the majority of my clients successes came from a single tactic or strategy at early in its life cycle, like soon after its innovation, before most people were using it. And that isn't to say that you need to have everything that you're doing in marketing be at the cutting edge, because that's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying though, as it relates to this degrading performance is that nothing that is well known that everybody's doing is going to cause you momentum or growth because you're using it. So there was a time like when I wrote the Internet Business Manifesto, where having a PDF lead magnet was like, could actually grow your business. Now that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have like a PDF lead magnet today. It just means that it's not going to grow your business today. It's necessary, but not, you know, it's. It's necessary, but it doesn't cause success. Right? It's not sufficient to cause cause success. And so, you know, automated webinars, live streaming, all of these at one moment in time could actually give your business a thrust, like extra momentum because it was all of a sudden outperforming everything else. And then over time it degrades, but you still might need it because it's part of your marketing mix. And so my experience has been that as long as a business has one or two of these strategies or tactics early in its inception, like they have what they need to have that level of increased momentum to actually cause something powerful to happen. Because like online you need some sort of advantage or you're kind of screwed. And this is one way to kind of have that advantage. And it stems from, you know, when I wrote reports back in 2006-2008, I wrote the Attention, I wrote the Internet Business Manifesto and then I wrote two kind of follow up pieces to that. The missing chapter and the final chapter. But then I wrote two reports called the Attention Age Doctrine 1 and 2. And in the Attention Age Doctrine 1, I talked about how attention was going to become the scarcest commodity online and what the implications of that were. And then in the attention age doctrine 2, it was about how I thought people, people's attention was going to go to this new thing, web2 social media, right. And what are the implications of that? And what I took away from writing that back in 2007 was that all attention has value, right? Like back then when I was writing the report, there was something called the million dollar homepage, where a person created just a homepage and they sold pixels. Like, and if you like above the fold was a million dollars and people bought all the pixels and it was like this viral thing that everyone was going to check out who bought, you know, different online casinos, bought pieces and stuff like that, right? And that like Paris Hilton, this is back in like, you know, 2007, was getting paid over a hundred thousand dollars to show up at a nightclub because that nightclub would get a ton of press, that Paris Hilton showed up at that nightclub and would get more than $100,000 worth of press. And so she was getting paid because she brought attention with her. Right? And there were these vending machines, I think they still have them in Japan, that you paid not with currency for like a beer or a soda. You actually watched like two minutes of ads and then it would give you a beer or a soda. Right? Like. And so, like, this idea of attention, having currency and, you know, the very first time that I was exposed to, like, the impact of a change in this particular case format, but a change in strategy or tactic, etc. And the power that it could have was with Magalogs. So this was offline, right? And when Magalogs, for those that don't know what a Magalog is, it's a sales letter that has been packaged to look like a magazine. And so it has lots, generally it has valuable content in it. Most of the big publishers, you know, info publishers, newsletters in health and finance and stuff like that, used Magalogs. I'm sure I have a ton laying around here if I just were to, like, grab one. But when direct response, when direct mailers moved to Magalogs, they had like a 200, 300, 400 increase in response that lasted for a couple years until, like everybody was mailing Magalogs. And now it no longer had that impact. Right. And the reason for that is that it. And this is just my belief, you know, I don't have, like, proof of this, but my belief of why that worked was that it tricked people in a way to get extra bits of their attention because it wasn't like, oh, this is just a, you know, junk mail kind of thing. And it's the same reason why, like a webinar, or before the webinars, teleseminars or video sales letters, why they worked so well in the beginning. I remember the very first time I saw a video sales letter and I was like, what the hell is that? Like, I was just stuck on the screen looking at it. And other people had that impact too. And so in the beginning, like, these things have the ability to get you extra attention. And because they have the ability to get you extra attention, which is worth so much, it translates into increased effectiveness in the mechanism and just because of the added attention. And so that is the idea behind that. That's why I developed the product Steal Our Winners. Because what we deliver to people are strategies and tactics that are earlier in their inception that most people don't know about yet. And because I know how vital it is to the growth of a business, that's something, you know, that we publish twice a week and so forth. But I think that what's most interesting to me at this moment, right, is definitely it's January 24th on Tuesday, right. So what's most interesting to me right now is ChatGPT and all the things that can be done with it. So I'm looking forward to doing a couple episodes on that. Certain people have figured out different prompts and the way the prompt should go to get different types of output. I've also seen, I've seen two cool things that were really more just tests, but kind of show the power potentially. Someone who I follow loaded up a bunch of transcripts of Dr. Andrew Huberman's podcast and into a chatgpt. And then like the chatgpt is ask Andrew Huberman, right? So you can ask, you know, it goes through all of his interviews and all his podcasts and it's like being able to ask them a question through ChatGPT. And then someone else who I was reading just did, loaded all their journals into ChatGPT and like, had like ChatGPT, like be able to help analyze themselves like through, like, when was this person most happy? What, like, you know, different things like that. And so it's pretty interesting. And I think there's like tremendous possibilities with that. And even though that does obviously overlap into marketing, I would say that from a marketing side, that's what I'm most excited about just at this moment. As someone who has done a ridiculous amount of reading and research and note taking over the last 10 years, the idea of being able to feed everything that I've taken notes on and recorded and read and loaded into a system that I can interact with is like insanely, insanely desirable. And I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes from there. And then I don't know what the implications are. Like, the bigger implications in marketing are going to be pretty extreme, especially when chat GPT4 comes out. You know, I just don't know how that's going to impact the content world because you would imagine it will in a very significant way.

Yeah, I think a lot of people will be out of a job. The SEO algorithm will change again things. It'll be a whole new world.

Which actually brings us just one thing on that. You know, I was just reminded like, and it just like I was talking, I was talking to someone about ChatGPT and, and they were younger than me, they were in their 20s and they were into it too. And I was like, oh, so where are you like, where have you been finding good content? You know, because my go tos are like Google, right? If I want to read some articles, I might go to Medium and do a search. I'll go to YouTube and like do some searching there. And those are generally like the places I go to first, right? This person went to TikTok and they were doing a search in TikTok and when I, and I thought that was strange, right? And then I, my daughters were home for the Christmas holidays and my oldest daughter who does do social media stuff, she works for, she's worked for Barstool and a bunch of others and she's like, yeah, that's how I do my searching. I search and talk. If there's something I want to find out, I do a search on TikTok, right? Like, and it's just things change, things evolve over time, right? Like, and you know, ChatGPT might take over Google at some point anyway because it's better to ask a question than do a search for keywords. But like, you know, my daughters hardly use email. You know, they use email only to like talk to older people like me, right? And to talk to like school and stuff like that. But they're not like, they don't use email. Like, you know, we use email and they don't even use Google for search, right? Like, and so it's just things evolve over time and being able to spot how these things are evolving, if you're towards the forefront as opposed to behind you, capitalize on it the most, right? Like the time to blow up on Facebook and Instagram are long gone. They're over. Yeah. Like, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be on Instagram and Facebook, but you're not, you're not going to build a, you know, a 2 million follower Instagram account today. Like you could five years ago if you had started five years ago. And so, you know, knowing that is then to recognize like, well, where is the next thing going to be? Let me go over there first so that I can at least like have the possibility of doing that. And, and I've seen that time and time again, right, like of people who got on early to different platforms being able to benefit from it dramatically, you know, and I think that like being aware of that just helps you be a better marketer.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. We're really out of time, but it's a great transition into, you know, presenting you with a spotlight to talk a little bit about stealer winners because I believe that's like the project where you're putting most of your attention these days. And I think it's tremendous project. I kind of, when people ask me about it, I kind of call it Netflix for Internet marketers, Netflix for entrepreneurs really. But I think it's a little bit more than that. So can you maybe spend the next, you know, give us the elevator, pitch what it is and tell us where we can go and check it out?

Sure. It's, you know, like we were talking about it's strategies and tactics that are currently crushing it online that most of the world doesn't know about yet. And so we have about 200 plus contributors of which you're one of them, all at the top of their game who share strategies that are currently working in a way that it's easy to replicate and do. And so they run from everything from media buying to creating a YouTube channel to TikTok advertising, you name it. Like, you know, we run a wide gamut. It's available@strategicprofits.com and we have like a trial offer, I'm sure, But it's strategic profits.com and you know, the idea is, is that most people never have the chance of getting a strategy or tactic when it's early and in a way that's very easy to follow. And so we publish two episodes a week. They're anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes long. And they are all about someone who's figured out something that is working right now that is, that's really driving the needle towards success. And so we have. Yeah, it's been a really, it's something that from my experience, most people who are struggling online, one of the main reasons they're struggling online is that they're using all tactics that cannot provide momentum. And that's natural to kind of fall into because that's just like what everyone's doing. But what everyone's doing will not give you an advantage and won't give you momentum. So if you're looking for what will really move the needle in marketing, come check us out at Strategic Profits. And the name is Steal Our Winners is the name of the product.

Awesome, guys. So you heard him, it's Strategic profits dot com. Check it out. It's called Steal Our Winners. It's video content, video format, so you can watch it even when your brain doesn't want to do any heavy lifting. I actually tend to watch it on the weekends and I'll give a testament or testimony for this. The last episode I watched was an episode you've done with Chris. Haddad and he shared his YouTube ad structure, basically a YouTube ad that he uses in the teaching women relationships or something like that niche. And he, you know what I really liked about it is if I were to see this ad and I would be like, oh, that's really cool. I want to model that without him breaking down the context and why it works, I wouldn't be able to model successfully. But I watched the episode, which I think was 30 minutes, but I only watched like 15 minutes because I kind of skipped to the meat and potatoes. And then I. The same moment I sat down, I put up the slides on screen and I basically copied this ad, only replacing certain benefits and features and changing the contents of it to fit my niche. I ran it the next day and basically now it's become One of the three YouTube ads that I run non stop. So, I mean, that's really powerful, like, because I don't get to say that about too many tactics. I definitely don't get to say that about too many services out there that claim they provide cutting edge techniques, but in reality they're only built to kind of support the bias of the owner of the service.

Right.

Where they sort of reiterate the same thing over and over again with your service. It's really just like, like a, like a Vegas buffet of techniques and strategies, Scripts, templates, pages, ads, traffic, sources. It's like, it's crazy. Like, it feels like a candy store for someone like me who wants to be on the cutting edge of marketing. So I highly recommend checking out the steeler winners@strategicprofits.com for sure. And before I let you go.

Sure.

I want to ask you one more question since we're over time anyway. So if you could, if you could go back in time, say 10 years back in time, and meet yourself back when you were in your early 30s. In your early 30s. No, early 40s.

Yeah, early 40s.

What would you tell yourself?

You know, I'm pleased where it all ended up. You know, I guess if there was anything that maybe I would have done differently and maybe that, like. But I don't know if I would or not. Like, so when I wrote like the attention age doctrines at that time, that was like, yeah, 2007. Ish. I was really close friends with, like, Gary Vaynerchuk. We went to the first south by Southwest together. I wrote the first blog post about Twitter in our market because Gary had convinced me to get on Twitter a couple days after he got on Twitter. And I've been partners on and off with jay Abraham for 20 years. And. And unfortunately I've had these two mentors. Jay is one of them, and Mark Ford, who's one of the founders of Agora, is another one of my mentors. Two guys that were kind of like, who are like father figures to me, and they're both very different. And unfortunately, I'm more like Jay than I'd like to be. And I wish I was more like Mark. So Jay gets excited about stuff and then does something with it. But then once he's done something with it, doesn't really have much more interest in it. Right. Like, kind of has his intellectual way, like a one night stand with a concept. Right. And once he's had his way, he's really not that much interested in it anymore. And I kind of am guilty of that myself. And. But where most of the money is made is later on. Right? Like, so, like, Jay and I did this course on being an authority in your market. I think it was the first course on that. But once we were done with that course, like, we moved on to different things. Like, you know, that's a whole industry, right? Or like when we did the webinars, like, I did the webinar thing, the automated webinars, but I never created a course on webinars. Like, that wasn't my thing. Right. And I just moved on to.

I actually happen to know that you also built an automated webinar software.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I would say that, like, I don't know if my advice would be, like, find the thing and stick with it. But like, you know, I would say that I'm certainly not personally on the same level as like Tim Ferriss or Gary Vaynerchuk or any of those guys, but I was with them early on. And I wonder if I would have just stuck to one thing if things, if that would have. If that is even possible for me. Because I don't know if it is. But I would say that, you know, certainly I'm well rounded, but I would say that that would be like, maybe I should have focused more on Twitter at that moment when Gary was really like talking to me about like, dude, this is going to be huge. You should be on it. Like, you know, I mean, I started an account that day, but like, I didn't, I didn't do much with it. Right. And I saw the same thing, like with Instagram or, you know, I've seen this over and over again, but just never applied to, like, I'm going to master this. I'm going to be big on this platform, like that kind of thing. And I do think that, I do think that there certainly is a benefit today to kind of mastering a platform, especially if you can get there early. Right. Like, you know, if you can be a big deal on TikTok right now, that could be. That could really power a business in the future. Right. And you know, in fact, there's a guy that I'm doing an interview with who's built like a hundred million dollar business by hiring people, teaching them how to be influencers on TikTok and then leveraging the traffic like they just get paid a salary. And then he's $100 million company doing arbitrage with the traffic that these influencers on TikTok he's generating. Right. So there's lots of opportunity there. And you know, my ADD has me go from one thing to the next, so I don't know if I could do that differently. But if I. That would probably be the one thing. And then I'd say the other thing is, is that especially if it was 10 years ago, that was at the, like, yeah, that was at the beginning of my midlife crisis. And so I would just tell myself that it's all going to be okay because like for a couple years there it was pretty shitty.

And what is the midlife crisis? People mention it a lot. But how do you describe.

Crisis is like where you. There's a couple things. One is from a psychological perspective, there are stages of life that need to be kind of addressed at different stages of your life. And when they're not fully handled, they can root themselves back up later on in life because like, they weren't handled right. And so that's part of it. The other part though is recognition of your own mortality. And you know, we all know that we're going to die, right? But like, at some point you are. I don't want to say it in a negative way, but I guess you're stuck with the life that you have, right? At some point, the realization that who you dreamed about becoming or the life that you dreamed that you were going to one day have is not like that. This is what it is right now and you're living it, right? And so there's a come to grips with like what you thought your life was going to be and the reality of what it is. And that can be somewhat, you know, is this all there is? Right? Is it like, what am I living my life for? Like, am I just here to fill a role, like, make sure my kids, like, get into school, like, that my wife is not alone. Like, is that what my life has all come down to? Is this what it is? Right. So for me, it was much more that, like, my own mortality and. And recognizing that there were things that I thought would make me happy that were not making me happy. And when I looked into the future, like, I didn't see anything being different, and I was not happy. And, like, is this. Like, is this it now? Like, is this going to be it? You know, and. And so unresolved issues kind of fall their way forward from a standpoint that maybe for some of us, it's the first time that we're really clear that, like, we aren't going to grow up to be everything that we ever wanted. There are going to be things that are going to be left undone. There are going to be fantasies that are going to be left unfilled. And, like, how does that land? Right? Like, you know, like, is that okay or not?

Wow, that's. Well, first of, thank you for explaining it to me because you just saved me 30 seconds with chat GPT so. But I can totally relate to that, man. I started going through something like that, something like that a couple years ago, and it's exactly like you described. It's like, is this. Is this all, like, is my life going to be amounting to this? And for some reason I've been dreaming about, you know, becoming a millionaire or kind of getting out of poverty and everything, but even though I have that, it doesn't seem to be exciting, you know, like, it's. It was supposed to be a lot more exciting than it is. That just feels normal. I don't think as far as life satisfaction, that my life is any different from my neighbors who works a regular.

Job, you know, Know, but it could be. And, you know, and part of it is being clear about, like, what you have to be grateful for in the life that you currently have, and then what is potentially still possible that you can aspire to. Right. You know? Right. And, you know, for me, it was retreating. I took a bunch of years off. I spent a lot of time with my kids. Right. And because, you know, now they're all at college, so, like, they're not home anymore. And it was, yeah, about, like, it was a reset, really, of, like, thinking through, like, now what's. Like, what. Okay, what was important to me? Nothing wrong with that. But is it still. And now, based on this, how am I going to live the next 30, 40, whatever years based on, you know, what I've learned and who I am today and who I think I might be in the future, you know.

Well, definitely gives me something to think about tonight. Look, I really appreciate you spending way, way more than an hour, actually close to an hour and a half with me. Thrilled. It was a tremendous, tremendous conversation. Guys. If you, you got a taste today of what sort of thinker Rich Hefferness, it should have probably made it clear to you why people come to him for advice. So whether whether you want to be on the cutting edge of marketing, whether you want to work privately with Rich, whether you want to just be a part of his world, you should go and check out strategicprofits.com Sign up for Steeler winners. Check out the trial. I'm sure there's a trial at least 14, 30 days for sure. And if you're great at consuming content, which we all are in those 14 days you can probably pick up millions and millions of dollars worth of advanced and, and, and really easy to and simple to implement tactics that you can take care like take action on right away. So go check it out. Strategicprofits.com Again, Rich, thank you so much for spending this time with me. It was tremendous. It was. Now it's officially one of my favorite episodes of all time.

Cool, man. Well, I appreciate you. Thanks for inviting me and if you ever want me back, just let me know.

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