Death Planning: Strategic Planning for Life’s Inevitable Moment

The real focus on what matters is what you want when you pass away actually happens. As an example for my own arrangements and what I did, we got a little bit of a special opportunity where we got placed and it actually blew my mind. Certain things about me came out that I was saying, oh, this is pretty boss. How I wanted to get it all laid out where we were positioned. I made very particular elements to control when that eventual time does happen. I at least got my wishes fulfilled in the way that I wanted it fulfilled. So that was just something that was very eye opening or at least it was an enjoyable process for at least when I was going through choosing how our family was going to be set up when that time comes.

We all know that death is coming, but when it comes, what are you going to do? Well, that sounds like a really fun topic but actually there's some really important information we need to unpack and uncover and we're going to do that. Today we are joined by Michael Ball who is a 13 year veteran of the bereavement sector. He's going to hear to talk a little bit about what is necessary in pre planning this thing that is going to happen to each and every one of us. There's two key elements that we know exist for everyone. They got death and we got taxes. Well, we need planning for both and Michael Ball is going to help us with some of the planning for the one we don't talk very often about. Hello, welcome to the show. Of course, Michael, happy to have you here. Henry, of course joining me as well. Now Henry, I'm really excited about this because you actually connected with Michael and you've gone through your own discovery process here recently about the types of value that Michael and his team bring to this planning process. And it sounds like there was a lot of things you discovered that you also didn't know and that was really important we get a chance to share. So walk us through maybe as we bring Michael in. What are some of the things that you first connected with him on and some of the things that really surprised you in the process that Michael was able to share?

Yeah, I mean planning or preparing for this process is not actually a fun one and usually it doesn't come with a positive message with it. It's not exciting, it's not sexy, it's not something that sells on social media or anything like that. But it's a factual event that needs to be prepared and planned for and I was fortunate to connect with Michael as my family was going through this process to actually Prepare for it. And to give a little bit of some context for listeners specifically to the situation. Just culturally and even for myself, I'm generally a planner. I don't know if I get the fortunate gratitude to work with you. You will recognize I'm a very much a big planning person. And culturally, we also have a planning process. So in our culture, just some of the things that we prepare for is we have a way of building our culture in which we respect our elders. And our elders go through a process of building things. And, you know, whatever they're building, they want to pass on a legacy and pass things on. Part of that process is just passing it on. But what they build, what they have, certain special key items. But one of the things that integrates it all together is, let's just call it, in the North American culture, there's certain things that we do too, which is the burial and death planning when we're speaking about it. In my culture, it's not actually a surprise to have these type of conversations, but so that's why we take it very proactively when it comes to it. So my family was just recently going through that. And I mean, I went through it personally with my father a couple of years ago, actually almost 10 years now. And, you know, one of the things I was not as mature and at that time when my father passed, but one of the things I actually appreciated now, given where I am today and sort of the stuff that I've learned and what I've gone through, is that the process of planning, a lot of it was actually very well prepared for and planned for by my father, that I didn't know what was actually done. But it was definitely easier on my side because in that moment, obviously it's an emotional and extremely emotional journey. And the point of hoping to get Michael on and us talking about all of this is just to raise the level of awareness on the process as it relates to death. Because now, going through it now in a different kind of headspace, I was severely blown away with how much Michael had to share and how much he was educating me about this process. And just to give some context, as a professional who works with people in their tax and estate plan or puts together things in that nature, the part that I had context or visibility to is just recognizing the fact that, you know, there's. There's a government, there's a legalese system, and there's bureaucracy and there's administration to this process. Now the event is an emotional event. And factually, you can't Avoid the administrative process of what needs to actually happen. So no matter how you kind of go about your process as it relates to spiritual afterlife or anything in that stage of things, what still needs to be addressed is what's currently in the system which is going through the necessary things to make sure that you're properly prepared for. And this is where I thought it would be really wonderful to have Michael to expand on the process that exists and first kind of sharing a lot of the experiences he has and what he opened my eyes on because I never really appreciate or realized there's actually a lot more to it aside from helping you save taxes or helping you keep money within the family, but it's also navigating the bureaucracy or administrative logistics and also making sure that more of the money still kept within the family instead of the cost of ill prepared planning.

100% sense to me, Henry. And you know Michael, what I find is interesting is that, you know, you're going to have the call it the tales of the trenches. And so I think it's a good way for us to start and for our listeners to understand is, okay, what are some of the major challenges that people are exposed to when they're dealing with someone who's passed away? There's a whole host of things I, I, I saw earlier. Henry was waving around a, a brochure that had 87 things you need to know when someone passes away. And that's one of the great resources that you guys provide. But if you were to kind of list a couple of the key elements that you find are most common for the average consumer that really gets them, you know, takes them by an unexpected path when they have to deal and contend with someone in the family passing away.

Within the industry, we draw a line down the middle. You've got your, your pre need situation, which can be jovial and you're learning a lot about the family and people are laughing. And then you've got the at need situation, which is, you know, Uncle Jim's past, he's just been found. What do you do? It's two o' clock in the morning of a long weekend. Never having had to do this before, never losing a loved one before, you don't even know where to start. Our recommendation at that point would be to call 911 because people sometimes call a funeral and go, he's dead, he's passed away. And you're like, who? And have the police been, have the ambulance been there? Because we're not doctors, we do not pronounce people Ma', am, can you please call 911? Once the person has been legally declared deceased, whether that is in the hospital or in the home which two different levels of complexity there as well. Your traditional easiest situation is we expected Papa Chuck to pass away. We were told he probably pass on Saturday. He had already made your arrangement the funeral home. We already know where we're going to pick him up. Very simple situation, not massively stressful. Young 40 year old man in the prime of life, working every day, four children, massive heart attack in his sleep. Very different situation. The ad need is really because we frequently meet families at the most difficult time in their lives. Over and above that complexity you've got the complexities of religions, faiths, cultures. Some people have to face a certain direction. So before we can even get into all that we, we have so many things and that we pitfalls we have to go through. So I mean the pre planned stuff is very simple. They come in oh yep, 25 years ago. Everything's pre planned. There's no real costs. I just need you to authorize this. What day do you want the burial? And away we go with an at need situation where again someone has not given it any thought, has been given no education, a pamphlet really isn't going to provide any benefit or comfort to what they're about to go through. So the person sitting across from them, the person sitting across that table, that desk is, is the most important person at that point. You hope you're sitting in front of a person who's ethically and morally sound and who's going to guide your family and ask the right questions. It becomes more of an interview. What would he have wanted? You know, is there any traditions? The family has cultures. What have you done in the past with other family members? And people say Mike, how long is this meeting going to be? I tell them 15 minutes to four hours. They're like well that's quite the range. If you come in and say we're not religious, we don't want to go to church, we don't want a visitation, we don't want this, we don't, we just want to picked up and we're going to scatter them, I can get out of there and if that's what they need. I really haven't provided any benefit to them. I haven't really explained anything to them. I really haven't provided the benefit of burial somewhere to go and visit. But those are your, your Internet based hey, I'm going to click here. I just want to pick that as opposed to. There's 400 people in the community, in our, in our group. And we want them to have their final, their private reflection time with the deceased. We'd like them to have the time to, to reflect. And then we want to have a service either at a church or a hall or a mosque or wherever it might be, in a park. I mean, so all these little details, the flowers are catering is all sort of leading up to that date of burial, if you will. But that's not the end of it. The real hardship and the real heartache begins once we've let the person down and we've completed their internment. Right now the stuff begins. And this is where Henry and I really got into it. Parts of the process can be more important to certain people than others. Some people, the visitation is everything. They get to greet everybody and say, hear nice words. Some people, if they're very religious or faith based people, the church service and the, and the final lights are very important. Some people that private reflection in the room, just them and dad is very important to me. The most important thing we do is really begins when Martha doesn't know what to do next with her pension. She doesn't know how to notify everybody. So one of the most important things we do is application for the Canada pension death benefit, which is if you worked in Canada and you're on Canada pension, you get 2500 dollars. It used to be up to $2500, now it's $2500. You get it. Or you know, notifying all the different government entities. What if you worked in another country? There's paperwork that needs to go to them as well. Closing your SIM card, closing your health card, getting any pensions and benefits for the surviving spouse. Like there's a lot of things that, that are happening in the coming weeks and months. To Henry's point. My dad passed earlier this year and I'm in the industry and I'm still dealing with stuff. So that's the, the reality of that. Earlier you had indicated, you know, the old saying that people say is, you know, two things you can't get away from death and taxes. Everywhere I go I get the, that, that comment. I'm going to tell you, I, when people say that to me, I say, you know what, I don't have to pay taxes. And they look at me like, I'm, like I'll go to jail but I don't have to pay taxes, but I'm going to pass away. If anybody can tell me, look me in my eye. At any seminar, in any trade show, in any room in the country and tell me they are not going to one day pass. I want to spend more time with them. I want to know how they figured out the one thing that we have to do when I've, I've probably dealt with it. Couple thousand customers now I've been in many branches across Ontario. But I joined a company that was out of Texas, a very large company. So I spent some time in the US Very different culturally, believe it or not, just the US to Canada, but everything's got their, their little different ways of doing it. But when I meet with families, you get someone like myself. I'm a bit brash, I'm a bit loud, I'm a bit, I'm a different guy. You know, people come in the room sometimes like, oh, I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that. I think, I don't believe in what you do. I don't need to do it, I don't want to talk about it. And they're waiting for me to engage or they're waiting to, to start the objection handling or they're waiting to be sold. I don't do it. Either people can understand the benefit of it or they don't. We're not a sales organization, so to speak. I'm here to educate, here to guide, and here to answer any questions and demystify, if you will, any questions that people have about pre planning. When I first started in this 13 years ago, coming from a commercial lending and investment background with, with RBC and then I was a VP with a venture capital firm, I'm going to tell you, I didn't believe in. You're in your 30s, living life, everything's great, money's flowing. You're just thinking about the next car you buy. If I pass, I pass. What? I don't know what happens, but I'm sure it'll be taken care of. I have assets, I have money. Then my son was born. My career in this industry is the same age as my son. Because I looked at this kid one day and went, if something happens to me, he can't take care of these matters. If something happens to me, who knows what I want, right? I get into the discussion about like, okay, well you have money. So you know, you're not worried about the financial repercussions of pre plan? No. Who knows what I want? It's not about the money for me. It's like, am I terrified of cremation? Am I terrified of fired? Like Am I terrified of going in the ground? Like, these are my own cultural, personal wishes that I complete. So first and foremost, I need to communicate that to somebody. Is that in the will? Not usually. Not. A lot of people put very, like, the wheels are very generic, in my opinion. I've seen some, some wowzers where they're very detailed. But what, what, what did Uncle Chuck want? First and foremost, okay, how are we going to pay for that? Again, in the working stages of my life, I'm not going to say I was poor by any means, but for me to be able to pull out $30,000 Thursday night without any notice, it wouldn't have been easy, right? I would have figured it out, but it wouldn't have been easy. So this is where we sort of come in. And there's a lot to it. Like there's a lot of stuff in this head, but you really don't want to be planning or doing that when, when the person's ill. You don't really want to be doing it when you're 85 years old on a fixed income. And, you know, honest to goodness, if I'm 95, I'm not really in the frame of mind to want to really talk about my demise or the end of my life because it's not 45 years from now. So it's a different conversation. The time to do this is while you have disposable income, you are used to your monthly payments on different things. You know, you're young enough to make these decisions. So there's, there's, there's the benefit of doing it while you have positive income. Honestly, I don't think I would like to talk about this at 95, but we've always found people come in, in their, their senior years, their golden years, and that's when they're wiser and they understand the benefit of it. So it's less me talking and more of them telling me what they want with people, younger people. You're really doing this, this presentation. You're really. Objection handling through the cost effectiveness, the locking in of costs, the protections of the consumer. So that's where it just grew with me and grew with me. And I'm like, wow, this is so powerful. So when I first got introduced to the business, it was from a cemetery perspective. Get your lot, get your lot, get your lot. We don't make lots. When they're, when we're full, there's nothing left. Then I got, you know, started to get educated on the funeral site because there are two separate licenses Two separate processes in the province of Ontario. Anyways, every province is a little different, different licensing body. It's only quite recently that actually funeral homes in Canada can be built on the property of the cemetery. So that's pretty, pretty neat. There were two separate things. You had Jack's Funeral Home at the corner of X and Y and then you'd go somewhere else for the cemetery. Now we have this all encompassing sort of concept with the crematoriums, et cetera, on the property as well. And this can all be pre planned.

Michael, to maybe glean in a little bit of experience in the process that at least my family went through with you. And some of the first things just to highlight is, you know, there's always some form of things that get blown out of proportion because of media. But what I actually learned was your industry is actually entirely regulated in what you're doing. You were just talking about that and I actually didn't even realize how regulated it is and how tight things you have to deal with when it comes to regulation and even talking about the plots and how they're actually regulated and needs to be approved from that vantage point. The other thing I wanted to even share is while you were explaining the experiences of knowing what someone actually wants, I will just share with you while we were in a good headspace. What actually, and I'll just reflect back to you was what actually really transpired in this process was there was some real conversations that happened that I did, I was fully surprised with and I didn't even realize like how I wanted to be buried or how someone else wanted to be buried. And there was even certain decisions in how it was being made and how those decisions were being made. I don't know the complexities and the details of it, but now I can see those suite of options and how they're all created. Because there's very particular reasons how someone wanted to do something. But it's really what I just wanted to share was the dynamics and the kinds of conversations that happened. And it's uncomfortable going through it in the moment. But what I actually take in good grace is during those conversations while I was having them, at least they are having them while I'm alive versus when I'm not here.

Exactly. You had some really good stuff there. I mean, when Mr. And Mrs. Jones come in, they've been together for their whole Life and they're 80 and they have assets and they come in and say, we got to get our lot. It's a fairly simple process and a couple of Jokes about Jack snoring with your family specifically. I mean, a lot of these families, when you come in and you've got different factions and it's a larger group of people, it was quite a. There's personalities indefinitely. And I deal with that three, four times a day, both culturally, the sizes of families, whether it be Italian Catholic, or Turkish Muslim. Like, we deal with all cultures and everybody's a little different. You can't know everything about what a family's gonna want. But you can listen and you can probe. You can ask those questions to get them talking. And when they're talking, you'll usually see me writing, writing, writing, writing. I'm making notes. Because at the end when I summarize and they go, well, you didn't. You don't know what we want. I'm like, no, this is what you want. You want to make sure you're facing east. You want this person to come. You're going to do this graveside. And they're like, oh, and you want a table. You want to have some birthday. Like, that's exactly what we want. You want a bagpiper there for the Saturday as well? Yep. Okay, I guess you were listening. So it's, it's never the same. You cannot script for what we do because every family is unique. Every family is different. You did mention about the, the, the education and the, the licensing. We are, we have to be heavily regulated. We are dealing with the vulnerable sector. We're dealing with the elderly, we're dealing with the sick. It could be people who may have dement 30, 40, maybe 50 years ago, before I got into industry and we weren't really licensed, and I'm not. I don't know for a fact. So I'm not going to share any of those. Those days. Times have changed. But could you imagine you come home and your elderly parents say, yeah, some gentleman was in our kitchen Friday night. And then we bought our lots. And you're going, you. You did what? And there's really no material. And you spent how much money? Like, they didn't have the benefit of the presentation. But now the kids are expected to have an op in. And that's something that, you know, I get into a lot. Sometimes the kids are in. In Chilliwack, B.C. or the kids are in Barbados. So I make the arrangements for their wonderful parents and they pay for it. Then I get a call from the kid going, what did you sell my parents? Like, well, I put together a package of stuff and we had sent it to you. They're like, okay, well he doesn't, they don't need this, they don't need that. They're like, well, you can't bury without a plot. I said, I usually tell them, look, you didn't have the benefit of the presentation. I'm more than willing to, to do it a call with you or a video chat and go through the same presentation I went through with your parents. So I mean, it's hard. It's. I don't want to hear, I don't want to talk about my mom and dad not being here one day. First and foremost as a son. No, don't worry mom and dad. I'll take care of everything at the time. Don't worry about it. It's not the point. That's just how humans, that's how we react. Nobody wants to think that they're not going to have their mom one day.

It's hard to take care of something when you don't know what somebody wanted and how they wanted it taken care of.

Right? But that's the response I get. And you know what? That's the response I would have given to the smart guy. I'll tell you a quick story. I had quite a profitable portfolio at the bank business people. And I remember one of our high wealth clients came in and said, hey Mike, you know what? I went to a cemetery in Puny. I made all my arrangements and I, in my 20s, who knows everything about life with my mutual fund license, you know, it prepares me to tell everything to everyone in the world. Go back, cancel it. We'll get you insurance. 30 years later, I feel awful. I wasn't being, it wasn't neglectful, it wasn't malicious, it was ignorance. And I, and I refuse to be ignorant. I don't know a lot about taxes, but I paid professionals to do my taxes. I don't know, you know, a little bit about insurance through the ven cap that I had, we had an mga, but I don't know enough about it to, to, to, to educate myself or my family. So I need a professional who's going to do those things for me. This is shoemaker shit. I got to do what I, what I do, right? And I have to be the best at what I do. And I need to employ the people around me to give me the advices I need to do the right thing. And that's where like my conversations with my customers are very a. They're never the same and they're very factual. Matter of fact, when we start in this industry, usually they give you a script and you work on the script and it, and it sort of guides your thinking a little bit. But after 13 years, like I couldn't hearken back to that. I mean, because it just goes like this. Right? But I mean, ultimately, why, why do you, why would you pre plan? And I do this in seminars. If I said, okay, well, I asked you, who, who needs to pre plan? Well, well, rich people, they don't, they don't have to pre plan. They have money. I'm like, no, that's incorrect. They understand asset preservation. They understand how money works. They understand that by locking it in today, you know the prices. If they live 40 years, they got them for nothing. But it's also, hey, my kids know that the wishes are. I got four kids. I don't want them fighting over, you know, this is what they want. This is what. So they, that works. The middle class, the people with two kids, mortgage, two car payments, they're used to monthly payments on different things. They're the busy people. They're the ones that if something happens, you know, now life gets tumultuous, right? You're down in income, hopefully you have adequate insurances and different things to, and I'm going to touch on that in a minute. To, to maintain the lifestyle of those left behind. And then people that are, are not so wealthy, they're, they're paycheck to paycheck. Well, they have wishes. Whether they're, you know, Caribbean people, like I'm from Barbados, or whether they're their wishes, they want, they may still want certain things. They don't want the government to take care of their arrangements. So they do it with a monthly payment and we work to the budget and we put it out over X amount of years. And you know, so we have all these different programs to help people do it because everybody needs to do it. I mean, I got against insurance people and I, when I trained my staff, I had 26 sales staff. They said, never let me catch you telling someone to cancel their insurance. You don't have your local qp. You don't have your charter life underwriter. You have no understanding of it. Here's what you can say. Insurance is there to maintain or elevate the lifestyle of those left behind. We're the last ones to let you down. They're two separate things. Yeah, I mean, your wife, your children, whoever, you want them to go to university. You want Beth to be able to stay in the house, you want her to be able to pay for the groceries, the property tax. So you have insurances to maintain that or in some cases elevate that lifestyle for her and those, your kids, make sure that everything. But it still doesn't answer the questions that I have to what are we going to do with, with that? So you know, this is why we make these arrangements. If the insurance should come in, it should be invested, it should be taken care of in a way. And that's, that's your guys world. And I'm never going to comment on it because I'm not a professional but I get upset with my friends and I had some insurance agents work for me for the MGA and I said, you know what, you, you do the financial planning, you can do your mutual funds, you can do your, your, your whole life, your universal life, your different stuff. I'm not going to comment on that, but this is the piece that I do. Okay. And the interesting, the most interesting thing is I think as an industry we're actually, you're going to see more and more funeral people with their local. Because our products are either held in trust or they're held in an immunity and insurance company. So let me touch on that real quick. We're licensed with the ministry, we used to be licensed with the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Affairs. They spun off a group called the Bereavement Authority of Ontario. Every province has their own jurisdiction. We are, we go to Humber College, we get our funeral pre planner license through a college. We have to do continuing education credits and certain amount of hours every single year and prove it. We have personal liability and everything that we do, everything we say. So we do get shocked. We have people that come in and they make sure that, that we're saying all the right things, giving all the right things. There's. Before I can even speak, you need to have a price list, et cetera. We take it very seriously. And that's on both sides. Cemetery, we do have licensing for that as well. And then to further protect the consumer when you give me your money. So on the cemetery side, your body's put into a trust. There's a trust that maintains a cemetery forever. That's a huge conversation in and of itself. But on the funeral side, when, if you're a certain age and older or you're sick, your money gets put into a trust in a bank and it is released to us, given to us when somebody passes. If you're 40 years old and you go into an insured product and you pay it over 20 years like a premium, if something happens to you while you're paying it. The insurance pays off the, the remainder of the insurance of the policy. Fine. You go for 20 years, you live a healthy life. Now you're no longer paying for it. The money is held in an annuity and it grows. You guys know more how that works better than I do. And I'm not going to get into it with a customer. Not my thing. Your customer wants to request a statement of their annuity, they can. That product grows, the person finally passes away. We satisfy our contract. Any growth, the widow or the children are going to get the residual from that, the leftover, they'll pay taxes on it, but it's a win, right? But picture this. I open up my ball funeral home and I'm not a good guy and I have $10 million of customers money in my corporate account, in my bank. I take off to Costa Rica. Where's your money? We don't get the money until you've passed away. And we have earned our money. We happen to be 140 locations in eight provinces, but you can have your own funeral home. So the protections for the consumer are all the way through from how the money is spent, how the money is deposited, how it is dispersed.

So that's very interesting. It's very cool to hear that. It's, you know, not unlike, you know, a law office with a trust account or you know, a real estate brokerage in a similar format. So that's very interesting. And you know, thinking about this, Michael, there's, you know, you touched on earlier where a lot of your real kind of, I'll call it key advantage or your real work, you said, begins kind of after the process, you know, someone's now been buried, we've completed that stage of it and there's a lot of stuff that goes into prior to that, but now afterwards, you know, people are dealing with the aftermath and you know, they're already emotional, they're already stressed out, they're, they don't know what to do and they, they're, they know even less what to do because of the emotional condition that they often find themselves in. So what are some of those post event type steps you mentioned? The CPP and helping them make application for things like pensions. Where do you see a lot of, I guess challenges that arise for people in that scenario? And what are some of the, I guess I don't want to call them horror stories but like, like common things that start to, to creep up for people after this has happened and then, and it creates a nightmare for the folks left behind and and what are some examples of how Arbor comes in and solves that nightmare in advance?

Fundamentally, to be honest, we get better and better at that. It seems every couple years we just advance ourselves to protect people even more and more. Like we're going through some administrative stuff right now, which 10 years ago I would have signed off on as a manager all day long when our company comes and says, here's why you don't do that. We're so adamant now finding out who it is that we're talking to. First and foremost, who are you and what gives you the right to be making these arrangements for a loved one? So that's become a very important thing. Who am I talking to? The whole process, from the beginning to end, each of those stages is really detailed to the day of all the little details leading in and the weather and timings through the church. But after, after it's said, pardon me, after it's said and done. And one of the most beautiful things with Arbor specifically, having worked in competition, we do something called aftercare. And again, this is something that I speak a lot about. Like I can fluff through all the other stuff pretty quick, but to me, aftercare. So mom's going to come in, the children going to come in about a week after. It's really when they're ready, but a week after they're going to come in. All of the paperwork for the government, all the care, pension, all the stuff to close us in card, it's all pre typed. We already have the data it for you to do it. And I've done it. It's quite cumbersome. And Henry's a very intelligent guy, chartered accountant. You're an intelligent man. It's not a matter of that. I've seen lawyers who six months later come back and go, yeah, it's a mess. And I'm going, okay, so when you come in and you sit down, how you doing? How you, how are you coping with everything?

A quick way to get a migraine, by the way, is to look at government forms.

Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Like I said, my dad passed away. This I'm still dealing with paperwork from. He had worked in the Caribbean and the paperwork, I'm not familiar with that. So the back and forth is just tiring, to be honest. So, you know, we have a very intelligent person. They've sat down and they've pre programmed it so it extrapolates the data and it'll fill in the forms. And then we're trained to be able to show you exactly where you're signing because there are unique situations. Again, did you work in another country? That's an answer on one of those Canada, Canadian government forms. So we're going to go through line by line. We're going to say, and this is don't sign here. And then sign here and here. Now what I'm going to do is I'm going to attach this death certificate and a picture of your marriage certificate. Here's an envelope readjust to where it's going. I'm going to put this in. Okay, Next, here's what you're signing for this. I assure you it sounds simple and I promise you it is probably one of the most important things because when that stuff gets messed up, if you've ever dealt with the government once, I always say if they come back to you with a question now you're going to be back and forth playing ping pongs. So we do it right the first time at that point, you know, we're also getting ascertaining how Mrs. Jones is doing. How are the kids coping? Is there anything that they're dealing with? Insurance is money, like, oh, we applied to the insurance, but they need a death certificate or there's a hiccup. They want the actual medical certificate of death. I can't help you. I can't give that to somebody. They need to go back to the hospital. So there's those things. If I realize someone is having a tough go. We have some. I can't remember the. They're like grieving groups. Like there's some groups that we have in different funeral homes that people can go. Grief counseling is available. We have series of documentations that will help people. So you've lost a child, so you've lost a parent. I find the funeral directors themselves, I'm at what they call an FD2, so I'm not allowed to. I don't see your loved ones. I don't touch the loved ones. I don't embalm loved ones. And FD1, they're a special group of people. They really are through Covid and the things people didn't give them enough credit but they're very concerned, very educated in that sort of, hey, let's get you some help. Here's some groups in the community and every community is unique, right? Windsor is going to have a group, an area that they can be referred to and it's a hub. Like this funeral home is going to be the hub of the resources that you require. They deal with it all the time. So you're really dealing, dealing with some unique, special people that actually care about your loved ones and your process and your grieving. And that's something that to this day, 13, 14 years later still blows me away. 3,000 employees, 2,999 of them are off the charts. You know, there's always one.

I just want to expand something specifically on just the aftercare as an example because there's a variety of ways that can happen when someone arrives to the death location. And one of those that kind of really blew my mind is actually, you know, we're, we're living in a culture where everyone loves to travel and you know, respect all that. They'll go back to places that they want. And as an example, what if you've passed away in, in Asia? And what I was really surprised with, I mean a little bit of ignorance on my side but thinking about, okay, well people have their wishes that they want to be buried in Canada and there's a cost to ship the body back to Canada and in, in Asia to ship it over is about $15,000 for it. And well there's the part that it could be more in the sense of even dealing with the administrative logistics of going through the government body and bringing and shipping that body over back into Canada. And there's no, there's no cost you can estimate onto that too. And these are again some of those things you don't even know. However, you know, I, again as a planner, the biggest thing that I always look at is risks and how do I mitigate the risks today with cheaper dollars that I can. And as an example, like there's a, there's an insurance that exists for, I think it's roughly $500. You know, when I, when I look at that I'm like that's, that's something I pay because I, I go to Asia. That's something I would pay. Not even a, not even a wink on it. And to have someone of a regulated industry handle that situation is, is extremely powerful. It's a one time fee. This is just that the aftercare, this is something that you guys take care of just full blown process for the price of the insurance. And that's part of the, you know, process of working with, with you specifically.

I'll do you one better. I mean I do love that program. You know, whatever the cost is. 595, there's different, different programs. Here's the thing, whether you pass away, you're on vacation, you put your trip, you think you have it on your Visa card, no that's medical insurance. You get sick and down there, they're going to pay for your hospital. No, this is literally bringing a loved one down, identifying you, booking a flight, because, believe it or not, this boggled my mind. I'm still not comfortable with it. When you're on your flight and your whole family's going on vacation, there could be a casket in the underneath. I didn't know that. But they're commercial flights. They're just whatever flight. It could be a red eye. But you're at the mercy of that airline and the cost of getting the body back for that. The local government, the consulates, that some of these countries, they will literally hold your body ransom for money. Like, I mean, I don't know how else to put it. Eloquently, you're at their mercy. So dealing with the, the, the, the consulates getting legal, any legal ramifications or any legal consequences that need to be addressed all handled through this program. Like, and it's good for everything. You buy it. That's it Will card in your wallet. Amazing. But here's something that nobody ever thinks about. Yes, we can. I can sell this all day. I can go to a seminar, stand up and talk about Journey Home and all this stuff, and hey, we'll bring you back. What people don't understand is when Chuck and Martha say, hey, we go up to the cottage every summer, we never leave. We've never left Ontario. Like, okay, is your cottage more than 100 kilometers from your house? Oh, yeah, we're two hours up. Right. What happens if you pass away at the cottage? That Journey Home product, that car, that Travel Assist product is going to bring you from the cottage as well. No additional cost. Because now you're talking per diem. Not per diem, per kilometer rates and all this stuff. I mean, unless you never leave your living room, these are all these little pieces. Literally. I've done presentations to families that take three hours. It's just because they're interjecting and they're filling you with knowledge of what their expectations and you're building out, you know, their plan, and they're all different. You know, some people have never left their, their, their little city. Okay, if you're 10 minutes from the funeral home and your grocery store is 10 minutes the other way, I mean, you don't have a passport. I'm not going to really talk about it. Right. But I mean, there's just, there's just too much. There's too much with this. There's just, it's, it's such a value to me. And I, and I actually get excited. It's like running down a hill for me when people engage me on it. I was joking around with Henry earlier. Like I get asked to do seminars. Jamaican Canadian association, different groups asked me to come in and, and I'm sure my company does not, does not like this, but I have a canned PowerPoint presentation and there's a, there's a, there's a script that you. I've never delivered it. It'll be sitting there behind me on the big stage and stuff and it just goes somewhere with the crowd because I'll, I'll actually ask does anyone have any questions before I even do a presentation? Because you don't know where it's going to go and to sit up and just give my, my, this, this sort of can thing to people. I see people fidgeting and I see people falling asleep. And again, like you said, like it's a, it's a, it used to be a taboo conversation. So yeah, it's a little more fun. It's a little more, you can have fun with this. There's nothing wrong with it. I mean I asked people, would your dad have made his casket in the garage if he could have? And they chuckle and I'm like, yeah, let me show you the MDF container. You read your customer as you guys have done for your entire lives. You know who to joke with, you know who to be very serious with. You know when to provide a little levity and when to be to. And that is, that is a skill that a lot of my colleagues have as well. Sometimes people do need to laugh. Right?

Yeah. I think the, the key point is this component of post death is so open ended and abstract and it's not something that people are going to dedicate time to study. And the, the key takeaway is to bring it to a narrow, manageable way. And the best way about doing that is starting the planning process to be clear about it. Because there. And the journey to get there for everyone's going to be different and articulating and discussing it. That's when you're going to run into and recognize those differences and it will surprise you and, but it's better to approach it while you're alive versus when you pass away. And I know some of the tools and materials that your company has but you know, there's about 87 decisions that you have to checklist objectively and go through with it. And there's I think about 60 of them, 60 plus of them. That you can at least have prepared and set up along the line. So, you know, the most common cliche you'll hear is, oh, make sure you have your will in place and all this stuff. But what about the other documents as it relates to the government benefits or the government things that you talk about, cpp, death benefit and all of those documents? And you know, there's people who have life insurance that don't actually even have that claimed and they didn't even know that their parents had set it up before they passed into it some of the great things that we have. The key takeaway, at least in this conversation that we had in this component, is recognizing that there's a vast amount of information that you may not know. And I think as a listener, as you're going through listening to this, I would highly encourage you approach the conversation. And I get the fortunate benefit of working with Richard as my teammate on our clients. And some of the things that they actually also talk about is, or ask and request about is how do I. So we, we help Canadians with becoming your own banker, implementing the infinite banking concept using a properly designed participating whole life insurance product. And you know, if listeners for the first time may not know this, but I'm just also sharing this, that built into what we do in terms of the death benefit and how it has merit is to include final expenses that's involved in financing and paying for these things. Now the. It could be more than what you can have. And therefore, if you're not paying for convenience to deal with things at need at that end moment, you can reserve a lot more for the family. And so that's where the early planning comes in, is where now you can at least mitigate the amount and keep more of it within the family.

And that's why you and I got along so well, because we got into a debate, we were talking, you know, term life, whole life, universal life. And I have this much knowledge and we were discussing that and your program and the way that I'm starting to understand through my readings of what you provided me, there's a component that can be used to fund arrangements and, you know, whether they want to do it in, in chunks. And they go, okay, we're going to take from this and we're going to do our cemetery here, Mike, this is the money. And they just pay me fine. And then they build up and they, and they build up and they do more work with you. And five years later they come in and go, okay, we want to do a funeral, but we want to do one funeral and whoever, me or Janice dies first, whoever uses. So he's going to come to you and they're going to get the draft and they're going to come and bring that to me and we're going to put that into the annuity and, and lock in the prices and secure their arrangements. So that's where these synergies are starting to happen with you and I is that, that, that bigger picture like, like we, we hear the term life underwriting, right? And I've always heard this term life underwriting, life underwriting. My dad was a, was a charter life underwriter as well. And to me when I hear life underwriting I see this whole spectrum. Right. But the fact of the matter is it's not. There's, there's pieces that are missing and, and this is what has always upset me. Like if you go to a mortgage broker, they're likely they're going to sell you a mortgage because that's what they do. And, and they believe that they're doing the right job. You go to a, an insurance agent or insurance broker, they're going to sell you a term life policy because that's what they do. That's what they understand. You come to me or you come to a cemetery, they're going to tell you well, you got to get your cemetery, don't worry about insurance. But they don't understand. So the whole spectrum is surrounding yourself with like minded professionals that understand how they can add that piece of that puzzle. For me to help my families utilizing your program, I need to understand it first for you to comfortably have a relationship with, with, with our firm, any of our reps to trust that person's going to go in and deal with your families in the manner that you trust and not comment or touch on things they don't understand about. So it's a really, that's where I really started to, to be comfortable with you personality wise. The inquisitive, not the inquisitive side. We've had many meetups here and, and you know what the tools like when you do anything too long, you start to not even talk about these tools like the box that we show the, with the tabs and the, my wills here and my arrangements are here. Because you touched on something earlier. Sometimes like my parents would have made their arrangements and they wouldn't tell us, they would never tell me. It's not your business. I said to my mom when dad was sick and I said, mom, you deal with Royal bank, right? Dad worked at Royal Bank. I worked at Royal. We deal with Royal Bank. She is. Yep. And I had this weird feeling, said, mom, you have something else. Well, look, I have X amount of dollars at td and I have so much at school. You don't need to know my business. You're my child. You don't need to know. I'm like, I do need to know your business. If anything happens to you. I'm not going to Scotiabank in td so your money on deposits can end up with the Canadian government in still, you know, in their steel currency. And we wouldn't have got that.

So.

Family registry. One of the main reasons that I joined this company, it's a bound book, and I would love to get everybody in the world to get it. It just. There's information. Like the day you go into the funeral and dad's passed away, they're gonna say, okay, your dad's name. You know your dad's name? Yeah. Where was he born? I'm not sure. I think he was born in Ireland. Okay, what about his dad? Well, why do you need that? Where was his mom born? What was her maiden name? Where was she born? Why do you need that data? There might be two Mike Balls born October 5th in Canada. So when we register the death, how are we going to know which one's. Which parents? Where are they from? That's all Information Service Canada. That's in the family registry. All my. My dad's friends at church, I don't know them. I may not be able to get a dad's phone. So the family registry, These are people that need to be called. This book. Had you put those in there. Any affiliations you had. He was a master mason. You're a knight of Columbus. Any of these. These associations. Pickleball Club of Canada? I don't know, but you want to list those out, right? Maybe he was in a union. There's a pension that we got to go to that union for. You got to write it in this book. This family registry, I'm telling you, is probably why I joined this company. It's a simple yet adequate method of making, like, vital statistics immediately available to the executor or the spouse. It is such a powerful tool, and it's so splintered. Like, I mean, I wish we could sit down and just have this super strong, like. Like, system that's just. And we. We kind of have it. But I've gone to other places, and they got a little bit. That's a little bit better, and I just wish we could just solidify it with the insurance professionals and the wealth builders and, and just build this in, to, to, to their planning.

It. It does make sense to try to make all the planning happen at once. And there is definitely a fractured system in place. But you've really identified a lot of key elements, Michael, today, around, you know, things people need to prepare for, things that they didn't know we existed or that maybe even that they didn't know services like this existed to some degree. But what I really appreciate is you've identified where are some of the major pitfalls that people are going to fall into. And, and because we all have to contend with it, no one, no, no one's getting out of here without it. So it makes sense that we. You would want to incorporate some of that planning. And, you know, when do you want to plan for something? Do you want to plan today or tomorrow? I mean, well, what if you don't know when tomorrow is going to be? So you just have to start making those initiating steps. And one thing I appreciate, it looks like you guys have on your main website at Arbor Memorial, you have a kind of like a quiz, kind of a getting started guide to help people start planning some of those initial steps to see, depending on their circumstances, maybe what some of the recommendations might be. And though it won't be exhaustive, it's going to help get people at least some of the initial direction as far as what they might do. And of course, they can plan a consult from there. So would you recommend that? Is it kind of a next step for people if they wanted to explore that option?

Yeah, I mean, people are terrified. They think people today are terrified to be sold to, they think. And that's being brutally honest. You know, you're a little bit older, you're a little bit more. I don't really want people coming in my house. So take that first step. Have the conversation before you even call me. Have the conversation with whoever you need to have the conversation with your kids. Look, Chuck, I'm really not. I hear you. You don't want to talk about it. You're 45 years old. We're talking about it. Your mom and I, we're going to make these arrangements. We have a lot of friends buried at XYZ Cemetery. We're going to go there. We're going to have. And you know what? Chuck should go. Yeah, Mom, I appreciate that. We're doing it to alleviate the burden. So have the conversation. Kind of get educated a little bit before you meet with me. You'll be more comfortable. I'll Be comfortable that you're. And that's something with Henry. Like, he had. He knew some things and there was a respect there. If I was looking for services and educated myself a little bit before I picked up the phone and called Henry, the best customers. And the easiest process for me is when I've done a seminar or I've been to a group in person and you start to have those personal conversations. And then I'm like, you know what? I'm going to get you a family registry and I'm going to drop it off. And a legal will guide and all that stuff. Yeah, it's our information without obligation series. I'm going to drop it off, show you how to use it so you don't hurt yourself. And you know what get you thinking about this stuff. And usually they call, wow, I didn't think about that.

Wow.

I didn't think about, like, the ownership of my car. Like, how's my kid going to sell my car? They need the owner. So there's a lot of stuff that I just can't cover in this, this type of venue. But great way to start. Start filling that out. It gets your brain going, get you thinking about things. By the time you meet with me, you kind of go, I thought I was okay with cremation, but I'm really not. Because you've gone through this process. Right. So it takes my conversation from here to here. Right. Which I appreciate. I mean, I'll take the four hours. I can talk all day.

I'm just going to add. So a lot of the stuff that needs to be done is, you know, available if you research it and put it together. But I think, you know, the family registry and how you have it packaged is such a really good tool. And again, it's free of charge. I mean, you've handed me multiple of them. But, you know, it's a process that I've started to adopt, at least especially with my clients. Because as we're working on their financial journey and unwinding the snakes and dragons and enhancing their investments and building their family wealth and mitigating and minimizing taxes, this component of the discussion, you know, it's been asked for quite a while, but, you know, I've. We'll. We'll say with good respect that the tool that you have has really put together that. Put together that tool that you put together the family registry gives me a real good guiding light to at least centralize the focus, to make sure my clients are very well taken care of from this vantage point, because you know, you don't have to find documents at the last moment. You actually have it in place. You're going through the set of questionnaires, you're getting things planned out and so that, let's just say if they decide to go to you, Michael, I mean they, they don't have to or anything like that. It saves you time in a four hour conversation to maybe an hour conversation. But at least the real focus on what matters is what you want when you pass away actually happens. As an example for my own arrangements and what I did, we got a little bit of a special opportunity and where we got placed and you know, it actually blew my mind. Certain things about me came out that I was saying, oh, this is pretty boss. How I wanted to get it all laid out where we were positioned. I made very particular elements to control when that eventual time does happen. I at least got my wishes fulfilled in the way that I wanted it fulfilled. So that was just something that, you know, was very eye opening or at least maybe it was an enjoyable process for, for at least when I was going through choosing how, how our family was going to be set up when that time comes. Because the other thing that blew my mind, by the way, because I'm not in the industry like you are in the depths of it in Toronto, there's other. I'll just call funeral homes and arrangements and I'll say the company that my father used, fortunately he went through a good planning process for it. We were talking about plots of land for it and the similar location and where he is now, how much it costs for him to do it. It's about 150,000 for a plot that just kind of immediately blew my mind compared to what he paid for. I'll just say less than five figures for it now was very, very surprising. And these are things that you don't know what you don't know.

True, I was blown. I actually learned something from you when you brought the process that you and I went through. Like there's things that we get caught up in and we have to be very careful of it. Because I would have said, oh, so. And so they use red and no, no, so feng shui and different things. To your point, think about this. Land goes up 7 to 10%, doubling in price every seven to 10 years. But more so outside of that, I can make a tombstone, a monument, what we call a monument or a bronze memorial or a vault. I can do funerals all day because it's just, I'm just, I can make them I can't make land. So when a cemetery is full, it's full. So that's, that's number one availability in the next. There was a study, it was on, on the news actually said in the next 10 years you can be driving three hours to do a barrel outside of Toronto. Richard, if we buy 80 acres, you and me, tomorrow, are we going to build a cemetery or are we going to put up a condo? We're going to put up a. Yeah, right. So it's just that the land restraints. Look at Japan. Japan doesn't do ground burials, not because of a religion or anything else. It's. They haven't had land, but now you have huge high rise buildings that are full of urns, you know, so there's, it's land. Right.

So, but there's other things. Just even in China, as an example, they're actually even making people either do vertical burial and also cremation. And you don't even get the choice on, on doing that now. Canada. So I, I had a sifu, our master come to help me with that and he has a lot of experience doing this, obviously because of again, our cultural way of things. And some of the interesting things that I even picked up was like, if you want to get buried, you get buried in Canada versus if you get buried somewhere else, you might, that, that body might end up, you know, I don't know about the spiritual components related to it, but I don't think it'd be a good one where you may suddenly just build a new condo building on top and you don't even know how that all works out.

Look at England. I mean, you're talking about an island. England and parts of Europe. You lease the space, you might be there for 10 years. And they go to the family go, do you want to lease the space for another 10 years? You're like, pardon me, in Canada, when you're buried, that's your resting space for eternity. As long as the sun and the earth revolve around each other, that's your burial space. But in England, they'll come to you and if you don't pay, they're going to take your, your, your grandmother remains and they're going to put them in common ground. It's a land constraint. So I mean we are, you're seeing the commission numbers massively rise. And it's an understanding and faith lies in different reasons, but part of it's just land and people think it's easier. People think, oh, just crema maybe easier. It can be more expensive. Than a burial. Trust me, if you're not making the right decisions. But yeah, I mean I've seen those hundred thousand dollar lots. I'd love to sell one to be honest. But you know, no, it's, it's, there's just so much, there's so many things go through my head and, and you keep making me like going down another path and, and make me think differently and I think that's the growth in this industry. People are coming into it that are her accountants, that are tax professionals, that are insurance educated individuals. When you bring that knowledge, when you bring a knowledge center, someone who has actually done their LLCP or further education or their in depth tax one and two and they come here and they look at what we're doing and they, they add to this and they make it better. They provide more service to those families. Every day I do a burial or two out in the grounds and I meet another pastor, priest, pundit, celebrant, whatever you might want to call it. And I'm always joking, talking to them and I'll get their card because I don't know when that person needs to be connected with a family and can really help them and make a difference. That's really what this is. So yeah, I mean it's the, this is the best job I've ever had because I'm not selling anything. You either get it or you don't like what you do. Either I understand it or I don't. If I don't understand it, then I can't really help you. Right? Like you either see the benefit, believe in the benefit, you have the trust in the person that's talking to you. You say this person knows what they're talking about and I find them, they're ethical, they're moral and they actually want to know what I want. Right? Then they go, great, everything you said. And then what's the very last thing? Can they afford it? Because I love, I've, I've sat here and people and I want it to have disco lights and I want it to have a sunroof and it's like, okay, can you afford.

I didn't know disco lights was in the pamphlet. That sounds like a whole nother.

It's what Henry wants, you know, what is your monthly budget? Because I will not do an arrangement for somebody that just can't afford it. There's that ethical component that moral components like you know, mom's on a fixed income, she's. I'm not going to not let her eat. So I can Sell her stuff. So we're always budget conscious as well. Right? There are people. It's just not gonna. It's not there.

And there's a big thing that I tried to share and I want. This is kind of the main thing I want people to listen to as they're going through this con. The content here is that there's a different way to pay for it. And this, one of the things that we kind of use is just suggest using your system to pay for the arrangements that you have. So you build your system, you focus on recapturing and getting control of your finances as it relates to your needs in your life. And this is just the same thing as one of those components that it needs to be paid for in your life. But you know what, at least you know for sure it's going to be recaptured and repaid for.

That's huge. And that's why we're, you and I are continuing to have these dialogues. And you know what? I love the text and I love the thoughts and the conversation sometimes. But there's something here, definitely that again, my back. I didn't see it. I didn't see. And more and more, the more I understand your segment of the world, I love it. And I can see you're not saying, don't do this. You're saying, let us show you another way of doing it. We're saying, you have to do this. I'm just saying you don't have to go bankrupt doing it or you don't have to take a mortgage on your house to do this. There's another way. And in a lot of cases, it's a way that benefits in so many more ways than just doing this. If you got 30 grand in the account, don't just take your 30 grand and give it to Mike. Like, why would you do that? Let's do this. And then you're going to put it back and it'll be there to get later. And so there's a lot more to it. And that's what I love it.

It seems fitting to take an advance on your future death benefit to pay for your. Your death benefit. Wow.

Right?

The idea of, you know, we did an interview with a gentleman many moons ago and he said, talked about buying a retirement condo. And he said, well, how are we going to buy it to the wife? Well, we're just going to take it from your future dead self. And that's fundamentally, you know, the path that that's possible if people are already incorporating that. So Michael shared a lot of the great gems with us here today. Thank you for your service and for what you're doing to help people and for just explaining some of these again, these the pitfalls, the awareness, you know, the cost of moving bodies in countries, the fact that Canadian land may be a better place to be buried than the landsland. These are interesting things I didn't know about. So hopefully that's ton of value to our listeners. For those of you turning in, of course, on YouTube, you'll see that poof magically, there's a little window there with some great videos that says, watch me, watch me. I'm really good content. Go ahead and click on that next and continue that ever present journey of learning. And we will see you on the next episode.