What Problem Does Infinite Banking Solve?

If you've got kids and you're thinking about grandkids or you have grandkids, what's the impact of the decision that you made and how does it mitigate or limit their potential down the road if you're depending on your behavior? So that we circle right back down to our video with Mr. Iverson talking about the practice. And are we looking at, are we getting practice or are we going to put all our attention, our focus on the game? So what exactly does infinite banking solve? What is the problem that this whole process that Nelson Nash created, What is it solving for us? What is this banking function that we keep hearing so much about? Well, today in our episode, I'm joined with my good friend Dan Allen. And Dan reached out and he says, you know, I'd really like to discuss the problem on the podcast because I think think it's something that, you know, often repetition is our best teacher. And when we are embracing or using a solution, we don't always reflect back. Once we're in the. Even once we're in the process of doing it, sometimes we forget about the problems that we've already solved from implementing. And one thing that's really important for us to understand is that our mindset is so critical. And Nelson taught us about rethinking our thinking. Rule number five is to rethink your thinking. Well, what does that really mean? It means you've already thought about something. Now you're at a different period, point, time frame in life, and you have a chance to reflect and reconsider the thinking that you had in the past. In other words, how did you think about something in the past and how are you thinking about it now? Earlier on, Dan, we were on an amazing session that you, you host every week for our Advisor teammates, where we go through cases and we talk about challenges with underwriting and how we can best serve clients in different formats. And because there's a lot of varying things that we see in this business, you know, around people, maybe with health conditions or ratings or financial conditions, and how are we able to work together to try to make sure that we're getting, you know, those approved as best as we can with the insurance company and so on and so forth. So we spend a lot of good time training together as a team, and in that process, we're considering rethinking our thinking. And I shared a story today about some of my thinking 10 years ago around a certain type of insurance, critical illness insurance, and how my own thinking about that has modified over time, even in Relation to my own family, how the, you know, I have multiple policies there and how I implement them and the discussions I have with clients. So it's really, really interesting as we think about this, going into what Nelson talked about the problem on page 17 of his book. And, and we're going to kick this off with a little video and we're going to talk through Nelson's. We're going to bring up Nelson's page 17. We're going to talk through that, and we're really going to get clear on what the problem is that we're solving and just how impactful that can be over a long time frame.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, we were just chatting about that I wanted to bring up today is as we practice this, you know, and you're all beginning, you know, challenge the way you think while we sometimes we. And give me. Others lose sight of what is the problem that we're solving for. And there's also another situation where people say, you know, I don't want to look at the problem, I want to look at the solution. And yet we know from, you know, what Nelson shared with us years ago is if you understand the problem, you'll know what to do. So it's kind of critical that people understand the problem. And so one of the things I thought of is a, you know, just to have a little fun with this topic. I just. One of the things that always comes up in mind when somebody says I don't, you know, I don't want to really talk about the problem, I just want to look at the solution is this little video clip that we're just going to share. So just give me a second to fire it up here and we'll put her up there.

It's easy to sum it up when you just talk about practice. We sitting here, I supposed to be the franchise player, and we in here talking about practice.

Well, a couple.

I mean, listen, we talking about practice. Not a game, not a game, not a game. We talking about practice, Not a game. Not, not. Not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game like it's my last. Not the game. We talking about practice, man. I mean, how silly is that, man? We talking about practice. I know I supposed to be there. I know I'm supposed to lead by example. I know that. And I'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. I know it's important. I do. I honestly do. But we talking about practice, man. What Are we talking about practice? We talking about practice, man, we talking about practice. We're talking about practice. We ain't talking about the game. We talking about practice. Man, when you come in the arena and you see me play, you see me play, don't you?

Yeah, just always something I get a kick out of just listening to that video and, and whenever I think about, you know, we get, you know, people that just say, I want to go to the solution because that's the game. And, you know, they don't think about the problem. And if you really understand the problem. So how does it, how does the game get better? Well, by practice. So any professional athlete that I know, you know, they keep developing their game, they get better at their game because of practice. And so we're going to talk about the problem because when it comes to this whole process called becoming your own banker, the more you think about the problem, more you understand the problem, the more you work on the problem, the better the outcome is going to be for you. So that's why I thought I'd throw that out. Just a quick little video that I always get a kick out of when he just talks about, you know, what are we talking about the practice? Like, yeah, that's just funny. But anyhow, what I, what I like.

About that too is again, in the sports analogy, and sports are so integrated into so many people's lives, you know, in order to get better, obviously you need to have that practice. Like, if you show up to the game and you didn't practice with the rest of the team, you might not know a new play. You might not. I mean, you might, you might not be in the best shape because, you know, you've seen boxing masters where the guy didn't, you know, didn't. Didn't practice and do training for several months and leads up and they get knocked out in the first round. Like, those are other examples. And so what's interesting is how even you may not want to go to practice because you might know you have to work hard or maybe you don't like practice that much, but if you don't go, you're not going to have the outcome of. Or you're going to reduce your outcome of winning at the game. And so that's where having a teammates or a coach for accountability helps make sure you get to practice. You know, there's probably, if you're the person that slept in, maybe a teammate gives you a call and say, hey, we need you at practice. Like, you got to get down here. So there's there's, there's another layer of like accountability that happens there. And that's something that we do try to bring both with the content that we produce here on this show, on our other YouTube videos and then our ongoing client coaching sessions as we want to be able to be that supportive teammate and coaching relationship to help people keep people accountable to these kinds of things. So with that in mind, Dan, I want to go ahead and bring up Nelson's book here. And we've got Nelson's page 17 of the book, which is I identified as the problem and I want to laser beam on this graph that Nelson has. So Nelson did a bunch of research and you know, it formulates a big part of the book which is he's always talking about his all American young man who's 29 years old making $28,500 a year after taxes. Well, what does he do with the money after tax? 20% goes to housing and, or sort of to automobiles. So here we can, we can see that reflected right here in this bar. He has 30% going to housing cost, 40% going to living expenses, you know, putting the kids through school, buying groceries and clothing and all that, you know, fuel for the, you know, vehicle, all that kind of stuff. And then hopefully in a perfect world, he's saving or that family is saving 10% of what's left over of that after tax income. Now. And that doesn't really work out for everybody, but we are talking about an average here. Nelson wanted people to understand that you don't need to be rich to get into the banking business. People think you need to be wealthy to implement this process. He built this around the idea of someone who was just a typical regular everyday family, middle class family, doing their best to get by with limited resources, trying to put things away every month. And how could they start making changes in their life by changing their environment, given the problem that they're facing, once they're aware of the problem, to start to implement something brand new. And what, what we have referenced here is these gray bars that you see, I've got these red arrows. We have the interest cost relative to all of these, these expenses. So you can see the housing, the interest cost and housing is very high, you know, the living expenses down here. And for anyone that's not, you know, watching us on the YouTube, what we're referencing is that first kind of five years of having a debt. So if you got a car, it's financed for say five or six years. You got your house. What is the financing cost of that over the first five years because something happens after five years. And so there's a lot of energy that's going towards interest on a lot of these things for the average family's life. And even if you're a cash buyer or you're someone who maybe you're not, you know, you're not getting into debt, you're. That probably means you're paying cash for things, which means what's the interest that you're giving up on because of doing that? And, and you have an example that we're going to go through in a minute, Dan.

Yep.

What's really key here that I want people to see is in the example that we've got on the screen, you can see that about 25% of every dollar paid out on cars is going to interest. We've got a huge porn, a massive component of every dollar on the housing for the mortgage that's going on, on interest in that first five year period because the bulk of it is all interest. We're actually going to look at an example of that in a moment. But I call it the real truth in lending. And then you've got, you know, on your living expenses, well, that's going to be the credit cards, you know, boat loans, like other types of loans that you might encourage. Nelson's really helping us see in this scenario, if we can change our thinking and we can implement something different. What if we could take this savings block, you know, this, this amount, you know, the 5% of cost of interest that's going on, all of our living expenses, transition that over over a period of time and stack it on top of our savings line. So then we have, if we're trying to save 10% and all of a sudden we've added 5% to that and now we're saving 15% of every dollar we have left over. That's a drastic increase. It might seem small and incremental, but we increased our savings rate by 50% by making that change.

Exactly right.

And when, when you see this graph, Dan, I mean, what are some things that come up for you? Because I know we've, you know, you've gone over this lots of time with clients. Yeah.

So I think you've covered a lot of it. But it really does speak to what most people don't think about. Right. They think about interest rates, not interest volume. So a lot of people don't realize what the impact of interest is on a mortgage in the first five years. And as you were doing such a good job of Explaining is, you know, after five years, well statistically it's pretty high where people will refinance or move and you know, have to start a new mortgage. So Nelson did a lot of great research and that's one of the things he found is very high number of people. After five years with the mortgage, they start over again. They're paying that high volume of interest. And yes, when people talk about mortgages, what do they speak about? It's not interest volume, it's typically interest rate. I got this interest rate or I got that interest rate. And they should be focused more on the volume because that's what's, you know, that's what's leaving you those payments you're making. It's a volume of interest that's going away from you. And if you can start to change that narrative, and I think you did a good job Richard, of saying, you know, it's not going to be overnight. You don't have to chase the biggest item on that list. You can start with something smaller, whichever works within your family budget. And I always appreciate the fact that Nelson, you know, used a, you know, an all American family that's earning 28,500 after taxes. It wasn't, it wasn't the high income earner, it was, it was the, it was that middle class back in 2000 that was the income earner. And he said, you know, and he always said you don't have to be rich to get into the banking business. So lots of great information comes out of that graft.

Yeah, let's, let's expand on a little bit. So I want to, I want to capture something from Nelson's book here before I, we look an example. So we're going to look at an example of that, that interest volume and, and explain it with an amortization chart for everyone watching on YouTube. You'll be able to see that. But Nelson's book on the following page, page 18, he goes on to say that within five years this individual will move on to another city across town or refinance the mortgage. That is the trend of how frequently it happens. In fact we had an article clip from a Money Sense magazine and this goes back quite a while. I think it was like in 2013 or 2014 and it indicated that the average timeframe that a Canadian family held a five year fixed mortgage, like a five year mortgage on a fixed mortgage, know term was about three and a half years. That means they were breaking contracts about every three and a half years. Now I don't know if that stat is still applicable, but it certainly was only only a decade ago. So I don't imagine the trend has really changed. The next thing that Nelson says is that something happens to a mortgage within five years. Including the closing costs and interest paid out during those 60 months, this gentleman has paid $39,625 according to the example he has. But only $5,458 has gone to reduce the loan or gone to the principal. That means $34,167 has gone to interest in closing costs. Divide the amount paid out in interest and closing costs and you'll find that 86% of every dollar paid out goes to the cost of financing. So that's given the numbers that Nelson used here for his, again his all American man that he was basing everything off. Now if he sells the house in less than five years again, now he's breaking the contract or he's only been in a period of time, it's even worse. The proportion never gets any better because he takes on a new mortgage and starts all over again. So think about that refinancing wheel that people go on or they go, they get, they get into credit card debt, they go and consolidate and then lo and behold, eventually the credit card debt builds up again because we had to replace the transmission and the, you know, the struts on the car and all these things. Life is going to get in the way and if we don't really get to the core of the foundational issues, we, we can just get stuck on that hamster wheel and never really properly get out. So really common problem that people face is that refinancing re kicking out. You know, usually it's a higher amount of money in mortgage value. And then all of that headway that we started to make because we were getting more efficient with each payment, we just went backwards again to the very beginning. And so we have an example of that here that I'm going to bring up a spreadsheet. We're going to look at like a, you know, typical Canadian loan, I would say. I mean, I think this will be typical for a lot of North Americans. You know, property values change, of course, all over North America. And in Canada we have some, you know, like example Vancouver is one of the top three most expensive properties or markets, I think housing markets in the world. So this, this is probably not a mortgage that you'd find in Vancouver, but you know, hey, in Edmonton and Calgary and some other areas for sure, major centers. So I got a $500,000 mortgage here on the screen. And the mortgage rate is five and a half percent. Now I'm going to do this at a semiannual compound. In the states they compound annually, not or monthly? Not semi, annually. And we're going to use a 25 year mortgage amortization, which is a typical time frame. So we got a monthly payment of a little over $3,000 a month. What I really want to assess here is if we had a one year term on that, what would the total cost of money be over that time frame? Well, the interest paid would have been $26,951. So let me just bring up a basic calculator and we're going to take the payment that we're putting in. So the payment that we're putting in every month is $3,051.96. Multiply that by 12. So we, we paid out of cash flow, after tax money. The after tax cash flow that paid for the house, the mortgage was $36,623, but the interest paid was $26,951. So the volume of interest is really what we're looking at here. I mean it's very excessive. So if we take this, this number and we take the interest portion, 20, 26, 951 and divide it by the total payments that we made, the actual cost of interest in that first year, that first Single year was 74%. Right. In other words, for every mortgage payment that you made, 74% of that payment went to interest for the first year. So the numbers are very similar to what Nelson identified in his book. In this scenario. Now we're, we're looking at a current mortgage rate. I mean, rates have gone up. Even if this was at a 3% rate, hey, that number would be a little bit lower for sure. But the volume of interest is the key here. What people don't recognize is the interest rate on the loan is being charged on the entire balance that you owe on the annual basis. So you're paying on the entire balance owed, which is what's creating a volume of money that you have to pay. And so it's not about the interest rate, it's about the amount of physical dollars that you're gonna, you're gonna pay tax on, have left over, send to the mortgage company or the car guy or the boat person and never ever see again. That's really the fundamentals that Nelson was trying to get us to understand. And this is part of the problem.

Exactly. Because if people understand what difference it would make for em over time if they could control that where they were no longer, you know, that volume of interest wasn't going away from them. And that number gets bigger and bigger as they go through life.

And I have another graph here for, you know, again, those watching on YouTube where we're looking at the five year summary. So let's know. Nelson talked about five years. I just showed you the one year amount. Let's look at the five year in our example. Again we have a $500,000 mortgage. We're now 60 months into this mortgage. What's the breakdown of payments? Well, we've made $183,000 worth of payments. So again that's $183,000 worth of after tax cash flow. If we separate out what was interest and what was principal, the cumulative interest amount, it represents 70% of every dollar that was, that was sent. So out of 100 $383,000 in mortgage payments, 129,000 was interest. Only 54,000 was towards the principal. That is a fundamental problem because now imagine you are going to reset that loan or refinance that loan. In Canada, it's very common that we have five year closed terms. The amortization is longer, but we have a shorter term and, and then we have to renegotiate what the term is going forward. So now all of a sudden you're renegotiating and maybe you're increasing or you're refinancing or you're selling the property and going, buying a new one because you had another child. You know, you've, you've increased, you know, the size of the family, you need a bigger house. These are the common trends that we see happening for people. And so we're never necessarily getting ahead of this because we're going to go get a brand new place or refinance and then we start over again at the very beginning of that loan and we start right back at square one where the highest volume of interest is starting again on that very first payment.

Exactly. Good. Yeah, I think it's pretty important and I think if you been following us on, on this channel and the podcast, they'll know that. One of the things that, you know, Nelson always said is every decision you make with money is a financing decision. You either pay interest to someone else for using their pile of money or you give up the interest you could earn by saving up cash and then spending it. So it's one of those fundamental truths, it's a principle actually, that every decision you make with money, you can't just dispute that at all. When you think about it, there's no other options. You either pay up or you give up. And it's kind of an interesting thing because this whole concept that we teach, this whole process of becoming your own banker, you still pay interest, you pay interest to the life company when you use a policy loan, but you can recapture that interest through that process. And so it's pretty important to know what the problem is. And the problem is, is you either paying up or you're giving up every time you use money. And if you want to change the environment that you do that in, this is the concept that helps you do that.

You had a. Now I like tall tales, of course, and some of the best tall tales are fish stories. And so, Dan, you were, before we went live here, you were talking about a, as a fisherman yourself, you were talking about a fish story and you had a really cool picture of a fish you were going to share with everybody here. And this, this goes directly into that idea of paying cash for things versus giving and giving up some of that fundamental long term value that could be there. So maybe walk us through that because I think everyone will appreciate not only the, the story, but the picture of this amazing fish that you've got up on the screen now.

Yeah. So thanks for that, Richard. Yeah, this is a fish that I caught. Well, at least I think it's the fish I caught, like time you pull it out of the ocean and, and actually gets to your place. So I have this on my wall at home. You're not sure if it's the same fish you actually caught or not, but this represents the fish that I caught. And it's kind of an interesting.

What type of fish is this anyway, Dan, that we're looking at?

That's what they call a sailfish.

A sailfish. Got it. So it's got that pointy nose and it's got a lot of bright colors in it. So this looks like a fish that came not out of a Canadian waters, but some tropical destination, I assume.

Yeah, it was. I was on a family vacation, it was about 13 years ago. And you know, and went out fishing. Took a bunch of my children with me and a few other people that were along and we went out fishing and, and kind of, you know, one of the things that they told us when we got on the, on the boat that day as well, if you want to keep any of these fish, you have to, you know, you have to get it mounted. That's the only way we, we allow anybody to take fish out and keep them. So luck as it is, I got the first fish and of course there's a lot of pressure for me, right. I'm on the boat, I'm. And people, oh yeah, you should keep, you should keep it. So I, I asked a simple question. I said, so if I keep it, what's that going to cost me? And the guy looked at it in the water and he goes, well, probably, probably somewhere around 850 bucks U.S. i thought, okay, 13 years ago, the exchange rate was a lot better. I said, oh, it's not. I can manage that. Right. So took the fish and you know, I think it was like six, seven months later this fish actually showed up at home in. And I could put it up in the wall and, and what do you think it cost me? Do you any idea, Richard, what do you think this fish cost me?

I'm guessing the quote he gave you was for maybe the, the first part of it had nothing to do with the shipping cost of getting it back to Canada. So I'm going to take a gander that it was 2,500 bucks.

Yeah, it was, it was kind of like that. Like every time I'd hear from him and be like, okay, this part of the process is going to cost you this much. And, and then the shipping was the final thing, without a doubt. So anyhow, all said and done, when I finally got this fish back to my place in Canada, it cost me that amount of money.

$3,500.

Yep. That's when I converted her to, to Canadian dollars and such. That's what it cost me. So it wasn't no $850 fish. It was like a $3,500 fish. And you know the part that I tell people as well, what did that really cost me in today's, you know, when I look at it and the other thing I always, you know, share quite often when I tell this story is like that wasn't the only thing I spent money on this trip. Like I went to the trouble of booking a whole week at a resort and you know, some of them, you know, my grandkids were there with me and my children were there with me. So I would spend a lot of money during this trip. But I just looked at the cost of this fish and I said, so what did that really cost me? Well, it's a really good question. So I did some research. When I look at, you know, if my after tax rate was 30%, well, I had to earn 5,000 just to pay for that $3,500 fish. So that's what I had to work for. I had to work to earn $5,000. So that was a real cost to me. And then what about the opportunity cost? What could have I done with that $3,500 that would have given me a different outcome. So when I looked into that, you know, that was 13 years ago, I caught that fish. And even if you consider just a 3% rate of return, annual rate of return on what you could have got for that $3,500, and I'm pretty comfortable I could have got 3%. Yeah. Just doing what I've done in life. I know I'm pretty good at saying I could have got at least 3%, probably better, but I just used 3%. Well, there was a $1666, you know, cost to me that I could have put that money to work somewhere else. Just got 3%. I would have earned that much interest on that money that I spent that day. So that is foregone. I can't get to it anymore. I spent that $3,500. And this is just in 13 years. If someone starts to think about, well, what about the rest of your life then? Because I am planning on living a long time. Well, every. Every day that goes by, that expenditure cost me more. And really, is there a better way? Well, we know there is now, Richard. This is before I knew about the process called becoming your own bankers, before I had access to, you know, using this process. So I could have done the same thing. I could have bought that and paid for that fish just like I did. But I could have used this process. And what would have it changed for me? Well, I wouldn't be giving up the opportunity for my money, for the growth of my money. I wouldn't have used my money. I'd have used other people's money to buy that fish. So one of the things I always thought of, and I just want to throw this little quote out there because I love this quote. And this is what I reflected on. How much money would I have right now, or would you have right now if I give you the ability to unwind any financial decision you've ever made? So you think about that. That trip by itself, you know, that cost to me, I know, was over, you know, $15,000 time I got there and back. And just part of that was at $3,500. But if you think about that 50, 15,000 that, you know, I spent. Yeah, enjoyed the time. We had a great time with the family. You can't place a value on that. But if I could have done it differently, if I'd have known that the problem was that I didn't have an environment where my money could keep on growing. The cash value of my policies keep going up each day uninterrupted. Well, I leverage that value to use that for that trip. So when I take trips now, I do it differently.

Yeah, and I think it's really important because, you know, the, the $1666 of, of foregone interest, interest that you didn't earn, that you didn't have available to you. Yeah, that's a 13 year period of time. It's a long period of time. But we're talking about a $3,500 decision that equates to a, you know, $5,400 really decision. And that's just over that time frame. But what's interesting is something you mentioned, Dan. You're still with us, thank God. And you're, you're going to be with us for a long time yet to come. So that, that accumulation of, of interest that's happening, if it was just at that simple 3% amount, well, that's just now picking up steam. So for the next 13 years, well, it's going to be even greater. It's going to start to curve its growth rate even further because of that power of time. So compounding can only really happen inside of an environment where money can sit still. And in a policy, it's essentially sitting still. But we're able to utilize opm, the insurance company's money, to be able to continue putting motion on capital. It's just not our capital we're using motion on, it's theirs so that ours can maintain the ability to continue to grow indefinitely. And that's really, really powerful. And so I think that that little micro example, 3, 500 and a beautiful fish is, is, is a really telling. And I'm. What's really kind of cool is that you probably didn't realize when you caught that fish, the fish stories that you were going to be telling was going to be on a podcast. I don't imagine that crossed your mind when you were, you were reeling that bad boy in. No, but, but reflecting back on the, you know, on the, you know, $3,500 fish decision and the $1,666 of foregone interest, you know, that's about a 48% increase, you know, 3,500 to, and adding $61,600 on that, that's a 48% increase. Yeah, that's over a, a, a 13 year period of time. But that's the power of what compound is doing. Even though it's only 3% a year, it's a, it's over. That time frame ends up being a 48% increase to your, to your monetary value. And that's what Nelson was trying to help us understand. See, you're, you finance everything you buy. You're either going to pay up interest to someone else, you're going to access someone else's pile of money and you're going to give up money to them because they've built a pile. The reason that you can access theirs because they have a pile available, the reason you're using theirs is probably because you don't have a pile available. Or if you do have a pile available and you're going to use yours, you're going to kill the size of your pile, you're going to reduce the size of that pile and then you're going to restrict the ability for that pile's potential to continue growing. Here's the other thing I think is really important that you mentioned, and I don't know if you really consider this, Dan, but you had your, you had grandkids there at that trip 13 years ago. So that's $1,666 of foregone interest over a 13 year period. That's just the last 13 Dan years.

Yep.

We got another 20 Dan years to go and beyond. Well, what about the grandkids? There's probably, there's probably a hundred years out there of potential. So just imagine for a moment you have a $3,500 decision. Maybe it's not a fish, maybe it's new tires, maybe it's a snowmobile, maybe it's a quad, maybe it's a vacation, you know, a staycation. Maybe it's a tent trailer that you're going to buy for your young family, like whatever that's going to be. Just imagine if you've got kids and you're thinking about grandkids or you have grandkids, what's the impact of the decision that you made and how does it mitigate or limit their potential down the road if you're depending on your behavior. So that we circle right back down to our video with Mr. Iverson talking about the practice. Right. And are we looking at, are we getting practice? Are we going to put all our attention, our focus on the game? So this whole episode is about rethinking our thinking, taking a good look at page 17 and 18 in Nelson's book, Getting Clear and identifying what the problem is and how you know, Nelson says it here. Most people in this situation concentrate all their attention on trying to make their airplane go 105 miles per hour. So he gives his airplane headwind, tail and analogy. They would do well to spend their energy instead on controlling the environment in which they fly. So the, the analogy is all about controlling the environment in which you operate. You can't do that in the airplane world, but you can in the financial world. You can do it by controlling, as Nelson says in air quotes, the banking equation as it relates to you. That's what this book is about, creating a perpetual tailwind to everything you do in the financial world. That is the unique message of the infinite banking concept. He then goes on to say that somehow or another, it never dawns on most financial gurus that you can control the financial environment in which you operate. Perhaps it is caused by a lack of imagination. But whatever the cause, learning to control it is the most profitable thing you can do over a lifetime. And with that in mind, Dan, man, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for all the value you bring to our team and all your clients. For those of you joining us here today on YouTube, make sure you take a look. There's a video that just popped up right down below. We want you to continue to always get your practice. Continue that ever journey of learning. There is no such thing as having arrived in knowledge. And Dan, thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate you so much. Have an amazing rest of your day.