Herbs for Dogs: Canine Herbalist Rita Hogan on Natural Healing & 'The Herbal Dog'

Welcome back, pet health junkie. We are so excited to be talking to our guest, the incredible Rita Hogan today. We're so happy to be able to bring her to you, especially since her book, the Herbal Dog has just launched. We are so excited. I can't tell you, I really cannot tell you how excited I am for this book. And I know I've told Rita this in the past. I, one of my goals this year is to learn more about herbalism. So this was like the universe telling me.

Here you go, here's Rita. Yeah, the best teacher.

Yeah. We are so, so excited for you to be here. So excited for your book, so excited for your tour. Thank you so much for all that you do. Welcome Rita Hogan.

Hello. So excited to be here. Really am totally excited about it. I get all. At one time, I know we try.

Very hard not to talk over. I know. Just as I was saying, we try very hard not to talk over each other. But yes, we have a lot of questions and I think, I know Janet wanted to ask you a little bit about, like, your motivation and why you wrote the book. And I think that's a great place to start, if you wouldn't mind, Janet.

Well, that, that's just it. I, when I saw you on social media, Rita, announcing your book and then I, I see the post, you know, all the time and, and pre order and, and I'd love for you to, by the time this comes out, it will be released. So we definitely want people to hear more than one time during the podcast where they can go get your beautiful book. But that's quite a lofty goal that, you know, when you set out to write a book, number one. But then when we talk about herbs and herbalism and especially, you know, canines and I'm sure that Pam is probably going to ask you about cat, but you know, in the space where we all work and live and breathe and love, it's about natural pet care, it's about wellness and definitely herbs, you know, lend itself to that. So if you could just give us and our listeners a background, your background first of all, kind of set the stage there. And then tell us what led you to wanting to write this beautiful book.

Well, my background is in herbalism. I've been doing a long time, couple decades. It morphed and changed to full time herbalism. But I started off in kennel, free boarding and moving to Tennessee. Then I started studying herbalism. And then I decided I was going to do dogs and herbs. And then I realized there was a couple other people out there that were dedicating their lives to animals and herbalism. And I was excited about that. You know, our. The Internet was not the Internet of today. You know, you couldn't find any information out on the Internet. You could, I mean, you could. I don't even think you could order like books on the Internet at that time. I'm not positive. I don't think you could. At least I couldn't. I didn't know how we had satellite Internet at the time, but I just realized how sick sick dogs were, you know, how sick they were, and that people would be so surprised when their animals would get better. So we, we moved to Olympia, Washington. And that's when I really, really took it on like full, full time. But I helped all the people that I boarded dogs with and experimented on pugs in my rescue for a long time with herbs. Non. They're non toxic herbs, you know, but they taught me a lot and here I am. So the motivation to write the book is definitely to get people to understand how to use herbs according to plant language, which many people don't. You know, I put out a meme today about the book helping with the supplement graveyard. Reason why is because so many people have so many things that their dogs just don't. It doesn't work. And usually that's because they are not looking at the plants as individuals or their dog as an individual. So, you know, this book really helps you do that. And if you don't want to do that with the book, that's fine and still help you. Right? It's part learning and it's part reference, but hopefully, you know, you'll. You'll want to learn a little bit about your dog as an ecosystem and an individual. And that will keep you from having that supplement graveyard because you'll have different palettes in which to use and choose herbs from. But I, but I, you know, the book is 400 and 400 and. Oh my God, a lot of pages. It's 440 pages long. And it, you know, it really comes out of a mentorship I had with about like 30 to 40 women for about four years every single Thursday. And I showed up and they showed up and I wrote lessons and they wrote lessons. And then when I. And when I went to write the book, I had a lot that I had already done and put together. So I had to rewrite everything and then add things here and there and decide what I wanted to go into it. But that was definitely the motivation.

That's a lot of dedication. Can you give us just one example before we go on to the next question about a dog that you like. You said that looking at your pet as an ecosystem and then looking at the herbs and as I think you said, a plant, individual plant. Is that what you said?

Yeah.

And so can you give us an example? Because, you know, in pupology, as with Jessica and Pam, you know, we deal with herbs. We do have some brands on our shelves here at Pupology and at home I have what I call my first aid kit and it is full of various herbs. And what I love is that if I see a symptom with Charlie, my 13 year old Aussie, I know I can spin my little wheel and get my tincture and I give him that and he's fine within, you know, two to three days. But I don't know if that's exactly what you're talking about, you know, because.

That seems where you spinning. I want to know. That's what I was wondering.

My, my, my little wheel. I have a dual layered cake plate in my kitchen and it spins so it's two layers and it's on a spindle and I just have my tinctures out, you know, on the counter because I don't have, they don't fit in a cabinet. And so that's where I keep my tinctures and I call it my first aid kit. It's my go to. But you know, their, their daily digest drops are there, there, you know, but then if occasionally Charlie will get runny eyes and I have an allergy drop that works beautifully with him and so I give it to him for a couple of days and those little boogies dry up.

Well, good. I don't know what, I don't know what's in those allergy drops, but probably something that resonates with him, right? Yeah. I definitely would encourage you to explore more like why he gets the boogies in the first place and why they're chronic and why you have to keep.

Giving that boogie, take care liver and environmental with him. And he loves to stay outside. And so it coincides like here in Central Texas where we are, his little drippy eye usually coincides with what's going on outside. And I actually am going to step into the store and I'm going to go get my tincture so I can tell you what plants are in it.

Get your boogie drops. Get those boogie drops.

Get my boogie drop. Okay, well, you tell everybody, give us an example.

But you can use it as an example. But if you're, you know, the Biggest example that I have and I think I actually, I use it in the book because it's just so common and easy is, you know, turmeric. Everyone loves turmeric. I just did a monograph on turmeric and you know, everyone loves turmeric. Well, turmeric is not good for a lot of dogs, dogs that are too warm because turmeric is not as warming as ginger. But it is quite warming. You know, ginger and turmeric. If you look on the shelves of your store, you're going to see ginger and turmeric in so much and it just doesn't work for dogs that are hot. It makes them more hot, it makes them more lethargic, it causes more inflammation because they're hot, like an indirect cause of inflammation. So I mean that's the biggest example that people can, most people know what turmeric is and, and it's warming. I think it tastes great and I'm a warm person and if I eat turmeric my face turns red. I, I love it but I can't eat it very regularly, very inconsistently. I can have it like when I go out for Thai and someone puts a little bit in there or something like that or eat that. Great. What is that potato and cauliflower dish? It's an Indian dish. Yummy. But I probably haven't had that in years. But it's chock full of turmeric. But yeah, I mean that's a, you know, looking at, looking at a dog as an ecosystem. If your dog turns out to be have more of a unbalanced heat in their ecosystem. Turmeric is not something you're going to use consistently. I mean you can use the one off but it's not something that you should be giving your dog.

That's a good example about what you mean by that. The ecosystem. What's in your book for this nettle, which I've heard you talk about nettle many times. Nettle's great. Yep. There is licorice in here. Burdock root. I've heard you talk about that many times. And my 60 year old eyes are failing for you with the last ingredient. I can't see it. It's with an E. Echinacea.

Eye bright.

Eye bright.

What is it?

Is it E Y? Eye bright?

Eyebright.

Yes, that's it.

Eye bright's good for allergies and it's good for the eyes. Of course that's, you know, that's a fine formula. It's cooling. So your dog is most likely a warm Dog.

Yeah.

So if it's working well and it works well each time. So that's a cooling formula.

And I feed him cooling foods as well.

Yeah. Now, if your dog was not a warm dog, that formula most likely would not work very well. It could be work. It could work acutely, but it's not going to work all the time.

Okay.

So, yeah, so that's an example.

That's great. Very practical.

One of the things that I'm kind of picking up on, Rita, is how individual an animal is and how individual a plant is. As I was thinking of it, I was like, oh, yeah, that's the name of your podcast. Dogs are individuals. Because all of these supplements that are out here, they're so many supplements. Most people don't read the ingredients of anything they buy. And it is very like, you really do need to, like, dive into what ingredients are in each supplement you're purchasing and why they're there. What is the benefit? Does your dog actually need that? And I think when you have someone who goes down the rabbit hole of herbs, that's exactly what you're teaching yourself, is how to look at each thing individually. Does that make sense? Am I going down the right path?

You're going down the right. Yes, you are. You're going down the right. You're following the right rabbit.

Following the right rabbit.

Yes. That is exactly. I mean, some people view it as it. It makes everything harder. It actually doesn't. Once you just put a little work into it. And it doesn't mean like, that a warm dog can't have. It doesn't mean that a warm dog can't have. Let's just say turmeric. Right. But it does mean that they shouldn't have it all the time and consistently or you need to give something that really offsets the heat. So, like, if you're going to give ginger and turmeric, then, you know, give something like gentian that is nice and cold that will offset some of that heat. But I still don't think that works for the long term. It's. I haven't seen it work all that well for the long term. For the short term, sure, absolutely. But for the long term, and as dogs go, this is really important. So as dogs go up the chronic disease list and they get more symptoms and more symptoms and more symptoms, it's more important to stick to an energetically appropriate diet and supplements as they get hotter, you know, because, you know, with cold dogs, dogs that are cold and cold and hot are disease states. So you've Got, you know, you probably got some arthritis, some liver weakness, some kidney weakness. You know, you've got some aching and groaning, probably some plaque on the teeth. You know, just a lot of, you know, what is called comorbidities or, you know, symptoms showing up in the cold department and the hot department, they look different, right? But when a dog is cold, if you give them cold herbs there, or cold food, and I mean cooling foods, you know, cold temperatures even worse. But cooling foods consistently, you will not on purpose, but make their health worse, contribute. And, you know, and these are common sense things, the way the body works. You know, the body works on a system of opposites for the most part. Now, if you're using homeopathy, that's different. It's like, cures, like. And that's a different mindset. And I mix homeopathy and herbs all the time. I include homeopathy in my book. But, you know, when your body's too hot, it's really good to cool it. Okay. And if your body's too warm, we want to cool it down. And someone asked me the other day, well, should I feed them frozen food? No, no. Their gut. We're not. It's an ecosystem. We're not talking about just the gut. The gut does not need frozen food. The gut, the. That. That's even a nice warm digestion. We don't want to freeze it out. And it takes so much energy from our dogs to heat up that frozen food. We don't want to do that because, I mean, I see. I see the mindset. Well, well, if they're hot, then maybe giving them frozen food will help. No. Will they be more tolerant to cold food? Sure. Like out of the refrigerator? Yes, they might in the dead of summer, but very rarely, it will still negatively affect their gut. And we don't want to shut down that digestion because it does need warmth and it does need heat, but there's different types of heat, and we're talking about the whole ecosystem. We're not talking about just the gastrointestinal tract, and everything's connected. So we really want to be mindful of that. Good point.

We can't hear you. Jessica.

Jessica, you are muted.

I was muted because there was a lot of noise in my background. I apologize. So what that makes me. That was making me think of the whole concept of yin and yang and how even if we have a hot dog or if we have a cold dog, we do want to lean in the opposite direction for what we're doing, but we can't be A hundred percent right. It's never all of one or the other.

You can't hold a. You can't. That's why consistency is important. You can't hold a health in stasis. And for those of you that do not know what yin and yang are, are. Because I tend to speak out against those terms in the English language because a lot of people don't understand the concept. It's rising energy and falling energy. You know, things that stimulate and then things that calm, you know, cold dogs need more stimulation, and dogs that are already super stimulated need more downward energy. So, yes, and it definitely is along those concepts because all the food, all the herbs, all of them have different energy into different degrees. You know, like I said, ginger is much hotter than turmeric, and your bug is much colder.

Sorry.

And the.

You talk about, you know, how to identify your pet as warming or cooling. Do you go into those? Good.

Yeah. That, that, that, my sweet, is chapter three. Chapter three, my favorite number is all about energetics. It's to help you about your pup and give you a good idea, even if you can just get there, are they warm or cool? And remember, it's a spectrum. It's not just like it's a spectrum. And, and in my opinion, most dogs are either born warm or cool, and they. When they start to get sick, they go towards their. Their. The. The kind of like polar regions of hot and cold. I don't see them cross over that much. You know, they can get warmer in their spectrum or cooler in their spectrum. Like a hot dog can get. Go back to warm just a night, and warm and cool are nice and healthy. It's when they start to get colder and hotter. That's when we start seeing things just coming up and, you know, like fur loss and dryness and. But if people can just get warm and cool, so many things will open up. I remember when my practice, when I discovered energetics, it was a lecture with Matthew Wood. I discovered energetics, and my head blew off, and I just, I, you know, it was like I was sitting there, and all of a sudden I saw all of these cases that I worked with, dogs that I worked with, and exactly why they didn't work. Like, I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, my God, that's why that didn't work. That's why that. Oh, my God, that's why that. And that's why. And, oh, this is. And that, you know, and my head just went, oh. And. And I was like, oh, God, I have to learn this. I have to learn this, you know, and there are still things I'm learning, but I was like, wow, this is so awesome because. And I learned a little bit about it when I read my favorite book. There it is. When I read this, when I was just starting out, I read Cheryl Schwartz's book and she just. Okay, so I was just starting a little tidbit secret. I just started out in 2003. Right. This book was written. It was written in 1996. 2003. Right. I read this book. She became like she was my ultimate. And I was like, oh, my God, who is this woman? I love her. And this book helped me so much, it blew my brains. And now. And it's Cheryl Schwartz, dvm. She's on the back. Cheryl Schwartz and Pam, I know you're into this. Yes. I want to tell you a super fun thing about Cheryl and I and this right here. So I asked Cheryl to write me a thing for my book. Right. I just put it out there. I helped her cat. And the fact that I helped her cat is just mind blowing. Just blew my head off. Like, this is all coming full circle. This is crazy. So she says, Rita is a fellow pioneer who offers choices of maintaining health and blah, blah, blah. Okay, hold on now. That came much later than when this was written. So in here I have an acknowledgement to her. Hold on. I'm going to find. This is just the best I love. Oh. To Cheryl Swartz, thank you for looking beyond what is visible. Are you ready? You're a pioneer of integrative care and inspiration. What's so crazy is we both called each other sell a bunch of a pioneer. She said, you're a fellow pioneer. And I was just like, that is crazy. Wait till she. I don't think she's read it. Maybe she has, but I'm like, wait till she reads the acknowledgment. I mean, it's crazy because. Because when you read the. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but when you read the whole thing, it was like, what? And I loved that, that our kind of. Our brains were on the same spectrum. And, you know, he's the pioneer, not me. But I might be a pioneer to someone who is coming up, you know, up and coming. And that's one of the reasons why I love what I'm doing and how my life has worked out to do this work is that, you know, this book is a way for me to hand the baton to someone and say, here, take my work. Right? And it's not mine. It's not my work. A little. A little bit is mine. Right. By dealing with dogs and every day and stuff like that. But this is the work of my mentors and the people before them and the people before them and the people before them. Because that's what herbalism is about. That's what traditional herbalism is about. And so, you know, this is my interpretation and my experience of herbalism, but it's not mine. And I want someone else to take this and take my work and expand it, right? Expand it to where my brain doesn't go, you know, because we all have these really special little guys right up here, you know, this special way that we see things. I see things in patterns. Like, I see the world in patterns. And, you know, I want to hand the baton to other people to help them rise up and help others, because that's what it's all about, right? We're here to help our cats, our dogs, our donkeys, our chicks. I'm your. I'm learning homeopathy for chickens right now. We're, you know, whatever little creatures we're. We're taking care of, Right? Yeah, it doesn't matter if it's, you know, whatever we gravitate towards. Right. I definitely want one of those small highland cows really bad. I want one really bad. And after this book tour is over, it might happen, like, whatever we're taking care of, we want them to be healthy. We want ourselves to be healthy. And I think that. And what I love about that, what I love about that, especially in this climate right now, like, what we're dealing with in. In the United States right now, the one thing that brings us together as a people is our animals, right? We can. We can. Really, for those people who love animals. Some people don't, but, like, the people that love animals, which is way more than the people who don't love animals. And some people just have some strange fears of. Of animals, but, like, you know, our dogs and our cats and all the little fuzzy creatures in our homes, they bring us together despite our political differences, despite how we believe this and we believe that and everyone's trying to be right and blah, blah, blah, we really come together. And. And. And plants, in my opinion, are healers of all of that stuff. So. Yeah, there I go. That I. I digress. I digress.

I love that. I want to ask you where you would suggest pet parents start, and I don't know if you want to answer that now or later in the podcast. Well, aside from reading the book, but, you know, a lot of times, you know, we, I think all of us, we see pet parents that are overwhelmed and they, you know, bottom line to what you were just saying, Rita, is what we, we can all agree that we are in unity about wanting to help our pets and wanting them to be the most healthy they can be, to be with us the longest they can be with us while being healthy. I don't mean they lived 15 years and were on Apoquell and Cytopoint for eight, you know, thousand years. Because we all know that that's, that comes with grave consequences eventually, and it doesn't lead to a quality life. What would you tell our listeners, our pet parents who are caught in this gerbil wheel of going the traditional route?

I think that a couple of things get in the way. One starts with a P, ends with an E, if I'm spelling it correctly, which is not always the right thing called patience.

Yes.

And the other one is expectations.

Yeah.

And the other one is fear. So I think those three things get in the way. I think that our expectations are pharmaceutical. Correct. I talk about in this book. In the book, I try to, I try to calm people down. I'm always trying to calm people down because they get excited. And, you know, we come from fear. Like, literally, if a dog's toenail, say a dog's toenail ripped out of their.

Paw pat just happened to my puppy, okay? Her toenail was at a 90 degree. Literally this Sunday, I, we saw it. And so Monday I took her into the vet and they sent me an X ray. And they're like, she broke her toe and it's already healed. It's already. This has to have been here two to four weeks. And we were, my husband and I were like, there's no way. We play fetch with her every morning, every night. She is so active. You know, I'm looking at her paw pad. She's been groomed twice. And I'm like, no. We got home from dinner last night and. And I'm playing with her and my husband noticed. He goes, where's her toenail? And I looked her paw pads. Everything was back to normal. But the vet was convinced that it had broken and already healed. But it was, I guess, dislocated because everything is there and back to, quote, unquote, normal.

So just shock it back place.

Apparently she did. She saved me on Vince that it had broken and already healed, but it was, I guess, dislocated because everything is there and back to, quote, unquote, normal.

She probably just shoved it back place apparently she did.

She saved me on that.

We do. You know, they're like, something hurts there. I'm going to just keep on doing what I'm doing. But, well, you know, I mean, the example, like a nail, A nail comes out of the nail bed and it's really obvious. I think a lot of people don't think and go, okay, yeah, it's going to be a little swollen. Right. But they literally feel like their dog is going to spontaneously explode in that moment.

Yeah.

Frozen. Just explode. The dog is exploding. And just because it, it's missing a nail from its pop head. And you know that, and that alone can get you on. Okay, well, we're just going to do antibiotics just in case. Right? Okay. Yeah. Good. Thank you so much. You know, they like, oh, God, yeah, that's it, that's it right there. And then we just destroyed their dog's immune system.

Uh huh.

And then that's just the gift that keeps on giving.

Right.

And they don't do anything about it. No, because, well, it was last year they gave him, you know, I hear all the time, I say something like, well, you know, you gave me antibiotics, so, you know, this is why this is happening. Well, I gave me antibiotics two years ago and you did nothing. And, and they're like, well, yeah, he started having problems about three months after the antibiotics. Two typical three to six months. You know, we, you know, you don't. It's kind of like economics, right? Something happens and you don't see it for like months, then all of a sudden you're screwed. So like that kind of stuff. And I think that fear really leads us to making these really poor choices. And I tell people, you know, take a breath, even a cancer diagnosis, go home, sit and breathe and calm yourself down. Right? Your dogs, your. Your dog doesn't know. And they're like, what is the matter with you? What, what did I do? Or what is happening? And then they get all stressed out. Like having the right expectations, not coming from fear and patience. We are trained pharmaceutically. We're trained pharmaceutically. Like if something doesn't, something doesn't occur. Like a woman said, well, she's been on it three days. Yeah, okay, okay, we need it. We're talking six to eight weeks here. And it's not anyone's fault. And I have, in my book, Janet, I have a whole section called Expectations in Healing. Because I think that expectations are really needed, like for herbs and using natural substances. Like, people have to get a little positivity under their belt, have some good Experiences with it. Like, a lot of people don't even understand. Like, cat people have been using herbs forever. Catnip is a wonderful nervous system. Herb. It's off. It's like, really awesome at turning on the vagus nerve, the parasympathetic nervous system that calms everything down. They don't look at it as an herb, but it's an herb and it can be used for cat dogs do. And. And, you know, there's lot. There's cat grass and wheat grass, and a lot of people use like spirulina or chlorella. Those aren't herbs. They're. They're algaes. But I just think people need to have some positive experiences. And you take, you know, if you figure out your dog's energetics, you figure out there if they're a warmer, cool dog, then you start, just add one Urban that you may think I have in the back of the book. I have these things called CO factors. Okay, let's just look at the CO factor. Well, not that one, because that one's a little more difficult. Let's look at the cofactors for Gotu kola. This is a perfect example. So you look in the back of the book. It looks something like this. That's all about gotu kola. Okay, so gotu kola and I mentioned gotu kola throughout the book on different ailments. But Gotu kola has cofactors. And cofactors are like symptoms. All right? And the more cofactors your dog has, the more, well indicated that herb is. So you're just your average American pet parent trying to figure out if this herb, like, what you should do. Right. Your dog has. I would say your dog is warm. They are a little hyperactive, and they've got, let's just say, some connective tissue weakness. Like they had a CCL tear. Okay. Like a tendon tear or something. Okay, so you're looking at here and you're going, okay, cofactors, acid reflux, adrenal weakness, anal gland conditions, anxiety, arthritis, CCL tear. There's one. But you know what? Last year they had acid reflux. They've. Their stomach's always been a little off. And, you know, they're 12 years old, and I've noticed that they're just not as responsive as they used to. Maybe they're getting a little dementia. And two years ago when they were at the vet, the vet told me that they had a little, like, kind of like almost high blood pressure. And they definitely. I feel like they're stressed because I'm a stressed mess. And. And then, you know, there's a whole bunches of things. Heart weakness, hernia, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high toxic load, hypothyroid, leaky gut, nervous system nervousness. Yeah. And they're a little, they're a little overweight and they're. Their skin is a little itchy. So that would be like eight cofactors. And you already know your dog is warm. Okay. So you're looking at the right herb because it's warm. That would be eight cofactors that your dog has had. But you know what? Last year they had acid reflux. Had or does have. Right. I even look into the past. You know, if it's within three to five years, that's still a cofactor. Your dog suffered from acid reflux. So that actually would be a really good herb to start with. It'd be really good. And we give dosages.

Nice.

So we have a tincture dosage. We have an infusion dosage for gotu kola. It is. Your dog is a Chihuahua. And so we are going to do one to three little drops of the extract, and then we're going to do a quarter teaspoon of the powder or the ground gotu kola. And that is the leaf, because the parts used are in there, the ground leaf. And I'm going to make a tea out of it and put it on my dog's food. So. Because it's really good as a tea and. And I'm going to give it to my dog for six to eight weeks. Because how do I know that? Because I have a guide on how long to give herbs to your dog. Right. To expect. We want to move in the right direction. All of a sudden they're getting, they're, you know, they have more of a mobility. They're not having as much dementia. You know, oh, wow, that's a really good herb. And then if you take them off the herb and they start to decline, that means you need to put them back on the herb. That's just a little. That's just a little. But you can also look at formulas that way and, you know, look at all the formulas that you have. And the thing with some people get it some. I think some companies get a little intimidated by that because they look, they're looking from a sales perspective, but it doesn't mean anything is wrong with that product. Right. It just means that product is not right for your individual dog. Right. It's not about sales. It's not about any of that. It's about, does that formula have more cooling than warming or more warming than cooling? It might have a nice balance. Right. Of cooling. Let's just say it had like three cooling, three warming. And I have lists upon lists in the back about what's warming and cooling. And you know, it, it, it's fine. Your dog, your dog isn't super sick. You're doing it as support, perfectly fine. But when you go to take them off that formula, I've had people take them off formulas and that dog starts feeling better, starts running around, starts, no, like, not as much lethargy because they're on an inappropriate, energetically inappropriate formula. So you can look at formulas different and if it's something that you feel is really awesome, then you can give it a try. But like I said, the more sick your dog is, the more sensitive they're going to be to energetically inappropriate herbs.

Is it fascinating when you mentioned Rita, like six to eight weeks and then you stop giving the herb? I don't think you said wean them off. I think you said you stop it.

Yeah.

And then if we start observing a repetition of the same decline you started. So.

Yeah, and, and you know, you can, I mean, depending on the herb and.

I mentioned, read it like six to eight weeks and then you stop giving the herb. I don't think you said wean them off. I think you said you stop.

Yeah.

And then if we start observing a repetition of the same decline you started at Penn.

So. Yeah, and, and you know, you can, I mean, depending on the herb. And I tell you in the book, if, if it's not something that can be give long term, you can give some herbs long term and some herbs are not good for long term. But like if you, if you're giving a, an herb for mobility or a formula and you take them off that formula and they start going right downhill, you just put them back on the formula. The body wants it. The body wants it. Right, right, right. The reason why you have to wean things off like pharmaceuticals is because pharmaceuticals are a hammer. They're forcing the body into submission. Right. And you can't just rip, you know, you just can't like take that away because the bounce back can cause a lot of problems. And you know, sometimes you need that submission. You know, I'm not anti pharmaceutical in any ways. I tell you in the book, if, if it's not something that can be give long term, you can give some herbs long term and some herbs are not good for long term. But like if you, if you're giving a, an herb for mobility or a formula and you take them off that formula and they start going right downhill, you just put them back on the formula. The body wants it. The body wants it. Right, right, right. I think some pharmaceuticals can be an, an absolute awesome bridge. I will tell you an example that I had this year. I had a dog that was itching, scratching, biting, licking, fur, was almost gone, right? And I mean just terrible. Absolutely terrible. And I said, you know, and the people were upset as well. They were just mentally unwell about it, okay. The reason why you have to wean things off like pharmaceuticals is because pharmaceuticals are a hammer. They're forcing the body into submission, right? And you can't just rip, you know, you just can't like take that away because the bounce back can cause a lot. So I said, you know what, I want you to go get one cyto point injection. Okay. Just one of problems. And you know, sometimes you need that submission. You know, I'm not anti pharmaceutical in any ways. I. Yeah. And I said, go get a cytopoint injection. I don't want you to get it until we have him on at least six weeks of herbs. Okay? You're going to have to. And I gave him creams and sprays just to give some relief to that poor puppy. We did cytopoint. Everyone calm down. And you know, getting people to calm down is so important. I think some pharmaceuticals can be an, an absolute awesome bridge. I will tell you an example that I had this year. I had a dog that was itching, scratching, biting, licking, fur was almost gone, right? And I mean, just terrible. Absolutely terrible. And I said, you know, important for that dog to recover because they, they think like what, what, what is happening? Why this person smell like stress all the time. Then they're all stressed. Dog calmed right down. We got him past the 12 week mark. They, this was like, I think like in January. They are awesome. All is well. And the people were upset as well. They were just mentally unwell about it. Okay? So I said, you know what, I want you to go get one cyto point injection. Okay? Just one.

Yeah.

And I said, go get a cyto point injection. I don't want you to get it until we have him on at least six weeks of herbs, okay? You're going to have to. And I gave them creams and sprays just to give some relief to that poor puppy. We did cite a point. We wouldn't calm down. And you know, getting people to calm down is so important for that dog. To recover because they, they think like, what, what, what is happening? Why does this person smell like stress all the time? Then they're all stressed. Dog calmed right down. We got him past the 12 week mark. They, this was like, I think like in January. They are awesome. All is well. No more biting, licking, scratching. Hair has grown, grown back. Never had another cytopoint. We reconditioned and modulated the immune system. We were all perfect. I only recommended the cytopoint because everyone was a mess, an absolute mess. And that was a bridge for me. Like that is a bridge. I am not completely anti pharmaceutical, but I do think that one, you need to prepare the body for that. You need to prepare the body to give it the tools in order to deal with a drug like that. That means you need to go, need to look at the side effects of that drug. Okay. What are the side effects of that drug? What can we do to the body to help it with that drug? Just like a flea and ticket. I'm not into those. But every now and then people get a flea infestation they can't get rid of. Okay. The person has fleas, the dog has fleas, we all have fleas. What can we do a. What's the least toxic out there that can get this situation under control? But before we give that medicine, what can we give herbally to help the body have a non reaction? It's a poison. Okay. It's a nerve toxin. There are many beautiful herbs out there that can help with a toxic nervous system. Like so how can we protect, can we hug the nervous system while the flea medicine is doing their work and then get it out, get it out. Let's get those residues out and keep the flea infestation from happening again.

Yes.

So like herbs can be used for that purpose. And in the book I do cover vaccines. Like if you have to get a vaccine, let's prepare the body for the vaccine and let's work later after the vaccine to get it out, to get out all the adjuvants and residues and all those things. Like, you know, some people have a rottweiler that has to get a rabies vaccine. Because if they don't and, and they do something and someone reports them, like they charge at a person and all of a sudden they're reported. Right. Because they're scary.

Yeah.

And they say, where's your rabies vaccine? And they don't have it, that poor dog will get put down. Which is so what, you know, breaks my heart. So some of them have to get a rabies vaccine, which. Giving an aggressively prone dog a rabies vaccine totally oxymoron, in my opinion, is not a good idea. But how do we keep it from happening? So with the rabies vaccine, with an aggressive dog, we can give a lot of nervous system protection and work to get that out as soon as possible and minimize the damage that that vaccine can do. So I cover that in here as well. So, you know, sometimes pharmaceuticals can be a bridge. And then, you know, with antibiotics, my opinion is don't give them unless your dog is going to die. If your vet says your dog is going to die unless they have this antibiotic, then give the antibiotic and we have to deal with the fallout. But for a paw pad, let's exhaust all other options, and the book will give you some options. Let's exhaust all other options. Let's reach out to another, a second opinion before we throw antibiotics at it, because a lot of people don't realize that it is antibiotic. I, you know, if I had the choice between a cytopoint injection and a round of antibiotics, I'm going to choose cytopoint every day of the week, 365 days a year. And I don't like cytopoint.

Yep. So I would. Because I would do the same because it's not going to wipe out my entire immune system in my gut.

And so, And I'm not a fan of any of that.

No.

But I'm also, I don't have rigid thinking in that. It's never appropriate.

Sometimes acute medicine is necessary. And I like the depiction that you or the illustration you just shared about. You were preparing the body, and you were aiding the body, you know, externally. You were, you were preparing it internally. And then you came in with, okay, let's get one cyto point shot. Just, just one. And then let's continue.

And then we got about three months to get this online, you know, like, and I'd much rather a side of point shot than a round of steroids. So, like it, you know, around a pred. I, you know, I much rather what I read, I'd rather prednisone than antibiotics any day of the week. You know, there's, there's a hierarchy. Antibiotics are my least favorite thing. But, like, but they do save lives. They've saved my life, so I can't say anything. But I had, literally, once I learned I had to deal with that. I'm still dealing with it, but they did save my life, and I'm happy to be here. Infection is no fun. No, but you got to save it for the big guns. Mine was a big gun, right? It was. You're going to die. Oh, okay. I'll take it. Thank you. Hope it works. But. Yeah, but like 9.999% of the time a dog is not going to die.

That's good. Good information. I can't wait to read the book.

I know she's got allergies going on.

Bless you.

Are you okay?

Yeah, I had to sneeze.

You need a side of point shot?

No, no, no, no, no.

Hey, but that's that, that's what I'm talking about. Like, yeah, yeah, she's sneezing, you know, let's go get her a cyto. Point shot, you know? Yeah, like. No, not unless it's. It's just. There's just no other way. You got anything to say today? You're very quiet. Very quiet.

I'm, I'm soaking it all up. But I would love for you to tell our listeners about the little, little bonuses that you put in your book about cats.

I wish I could remember them, but.

Well, just the fact that you even include tips for.

I do. There is some cat bonuses in there. I would love to see a cat. Herbal. I've got some plans for that in the future. Working with, you know, a couple of people that love cats, possibly. But there's some kitties in here. So. Kitties are in my dosage section. I talk about kitties being dosed as small dogs and extra small dogs, depending on their weight. Right. Average cat usually weighs below 25 pounds. So that's. Well, yeah, well, I've got a big one. I've got a 1 pounder and Oski is already at 21 pounds. He's a big boy. And then K is. I think he's 11.

Okay. So that's about average.

Yeah, an average kitty. And then in the materia medica, that means. Materia medica means resume for an herb. In the urban plants and fungi section, you have to do the. I have. And every herb I believe. Hold on. Make sure that I do. I can put my money work here it is use for cats. Use for cats, yes. Use for cats, no. Yes, I have. If kitties can use it and if they cannot use it, or some of them. I have. Use this, use that, or use this instead. So. Yes, I mean, dogs and cats are different species, but a lot of herbal stuff does map over onto kitties. It's just, you know, one. It's a little harder to get in. Yeah. One, if you have a cat, make sure you have A pillar. I don't know if you know what a pillar is, but it's this plastic tube that you put a little pill in the bottom and you put it in your mouth and you go, my partner is the best I've ever seen at it. It's amazing. And then, you know, they do well with like glycerin extracts. They cats can have alcohol but like cat dose is going to be less than three single drops of any cat I've ever met. So they're just good. It's going to be really low and so they can have all of that stuff. It's kind of hard to get them to eat a powder. They are like, no, I'm not eating that. And so, you know, I just get a pair of Kevlar gloves and call it done.

My secret ingredient is baby food or the, the puree chur. You know those?

Yep. I give the pea with that.

Yes.

He gets with his little. Yeah, yeah. He loves it.

I can hide. I can hide. Herbal tinctures and Gerber baby food meat purees.

I just want to say that Carl, Pam, Carl, who I rescued from Carrie. Yeah, we don't use the L, we call. And Carl, he will sit in my arms like a baby and I just put it inside of his mouth and he goes, yes, such a good boy. He never tries to kill me. My other cat, Bones, who has since passed away, he would try to kill me. I always had to use oven mitts. And I tell him, I'm like, bones, I love you, honey, I love you. And he'd be like, yeah, whatever. I'm ani. Yeah, so, so, yes, kitties are covered.

I'm so excited for that. That's awesome.

Yeah, I did not. Kitties, my kitty, kitty brethren.

Yes, we appreciate that very much.

I wanted to add because I heard someone else recently tell me when they're trying to give herbs to their cats, they will use ghee or like a melted ghee underneath of their whatever, their raw food or their canned food, whatever they're eating. And apparently that works fairly well.

Nice.

I don't know.

Yeah, my cats don't like it.

They don't.

My cats like butter. Yeah, that would be another option. Just regular, you know, grass fed butter.

Yeah, I'd say, you know, give, try, try, whatever works with cats. Cats are. They're so diff. They're just, you know, they're just different.

They are. They're not small dogs.

No, they are not small dogs. It's true. They are. Try whatever works with cats. Cats are. They're so diff. They're just, you know, they're just different.

They are. They're not small dogs.

No, they are not small dogs. It's true. They are not small dogs. Even though Oski is kind of like a dog.

They're. They're wired more for their survival instincts, I think are just so.

Yeah.

Much greater than dogs, you know, very protective.

Yeah. Not small dogs. Even though Oski's kind of like a dog.

They're. They're wired more for big eyes.

They do.

You're almost doing the big eye. Yeah.

What does this got to do with herbs doing?

Okay, let's get back on.

Well, I think that you've covered so, so much. One of the things that I know I, I didn't ask you the last time we spoke and we haven't brought up today is finding, like high quality herbs. Like, even though you say, okay, this herb, you decide, you. You look through the book, you read through the book, you're. You find an herb that you're like, okay, I think I want to try this for my pet. Like, what kind of recommendations do you have for sourcing if people can't grow their own stuff?

I'm so glad you asked that, Jessica. The book has a website called the Herbal Dog and it has a sourcing section which is going to be growing and growing and growing as. As time goes on. I have some sourcing in there, but you just go to the website, go under sourcing, and they're sourcing for Canada, the U.K. australia, and United States.

Nice.

Beautiful. Very nice.

And do you think it could possibly be safe for people to start in their own herb cabinet, like whatever they have already to.

Is.

Is that safe to do?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Start looking at what you got. I've got more than you can ever imagine.

I bet you do.

I am ready for the apocalypse if it ever happens.

But does it rotate?

No, I don't have the rotating plate. I do have a lazy Susan on my, my dining room table, though. I do have that, so I could put it there.

We need to get together and play some cards and have the lazy Susan rotational herbs instead.

Does everyone. Moses takes a hit of the tincture. Right? I like it. I like it.

Okay, I have one more question, and I don't think that we covered it, but it does go back to some of the things that you were talking about regarding, you know, when a trip to the traditional veterinarian may be necessary, when a prescription or a cyto point shot or whatever may be necessary. And this is a question that Personally, I have, I always second guess myself. And this came up yesterday in the store and I was talking with a pet parent and the. Her particular dog is 8 years old, had liver failure over a year ago and has since been on three prescriptions and has never come off of them. And my same Aussie that I mentioned earlier, 13 year old Charlie, he went into liver failure and was hours away from dying at the age of one and a half. And that's when I learned my very first herb that I learned about was milk thistle to help support the liver. And you know, I didn't at the time, I didn't jump in and start studying about nutrition or holistic anything at the time. I just happened. I don't know where I even heard about milk thistle to support the liver. But this dog, again, three over a year, three medications, she said that they were about to get ready to stop and they, she kind of relapsed and her liver enzymes were elevated again. And so they said, do not come off of the medication. And so I was talking with her and I said, well, what changed? Because that just seems really unusual that it would just spike for no reason. And she's like, nothing. And I ask this question all the time. And I said, did you give flea tick and heartworm medicine? And yes. Yeah, yeah, your face. If, if our podcasts are, you know, listeners, you know, are just listening and not.

That's really hard on the liver. So it's hard on the liver and kidneys. Yes, necessarily the, depending on the heart. Like, if it's just ivermectin, it's. Ivermectin's pretty benign. It's not that bad at all. But if, if it was like trifexis or something, that dog should not, not be on any of those with any type of liver failure problems.

Yes, that's what I, I said. You know, you're smart, you know, you.

Should give milk thistle along with those. I mean, I would tell her I can't tell someone to go off pharmaceuticals, but like, if I was a friend, I would tell her that. And if she can't, then give milk thistle two weeks before and six weeks after.

Yes. So that's what my question was, is about that interaction. That's where I was leading is, you know, okay, more than likely that's flea, tick and heartworm. That trifexis medication is what spiked those liver enzymes, that she was never told to stop using them, although she had stopped. And then they came in on an auto shipment that her husband reenacted.

She's not going to be told to stop.

No, she's not. And so that's where we, we tell them to stop constantly. And then I said, but. And I was talking to her about milk thistle and I said, but do your research. And this is where I always second guess that interaction. Because I'm not trained in pharmacy, I'm not a trained veterinarian. But do I think logically, plants don't interact with medications, but I also have, I think. Okay, I was gonna say, I think I've heard you say before, if this, then don't do that. So can you talk about that for, for us?

Yes. I mean, all, all herbs could interact with certain medications. There's some medications that work on the port, the P450 pathway, like St. John's Wort, and some other ones that you can't use with any pharmaceuticals. There's a few of them, a lot of them. But I have that in the book. In the book, if they, what, what types of medicines that they interfere with. So yeah, you want to look at, if your dog's on pharmaceuticals, you definitely want to look at that. And you can, you can usually find that out. But I do cover it in my book and I cover all the, all the herbs that I talk about in my book. I, I tell you, if they, what they interfere with.

Excellent. Thank you. I wanted to be sure and cover that. And, and again, when this comes out, your book will have been released. So they can get it@theherbaldog.com they can.

Get it anywhere they buy a book.

Okay.

It is not self published or anything. So it's published by my publisher, Inner Traditions in Vermont. And it's, it's available in Australia and the UK and Canada and America and everywhere. Anywhere you buy books. You could, you'll be able to get it@the.theherbaldog.com and my other websites. You will definitely be able to buy it anywhere. Your local bookstore can order it for you. If they don't have it, you can encourage them to carry it.

I think you can come to Georgetown and do a book signing.

Yes, Georgetown. Where's George? You mean in the D.C. texas.

We're north of Austin.

We're Central Texas. Would you like to come?

How far is that? From 20 miles north. Consider it done. Ladies, come on.

Yes.

One of you send me an email about that.

You can stay with me.

Yeah, consider it done. Send me an email. We'll put it on the schedule.

Nice. And we can help host it at my store.

Yes, yes, yes.

I have two of them.

Okay. I just have to. I have to. I remember when my sister. I was in San Antonio and my sister's air conditioner went out. Thought I was going to die. I thought I was in the car with the air conditioning going. How am I going to get home? Our flight doesn't need for a week. I'm going to die. I've got to, you know, And I didn't even think about going to a hotel because I was young with my family, and I didn't have that type of money. And I was like, oh, my God, we're going to die here. Yeah.

Yep, you would have.

The last time I was in Texas, too. I haven't been to Texas in a long time. No.

Yeah.

Yeah. Consider it done. We'll make that happen. That'll be fun.

Jessica, you're still muted.

Sorry.

I read your lips. Oh, my gosh.

I know, I know. There's just so much background noise here. I'm sorry. Yes, there. There's a requirement if you live in Texas that you. You have to have air conditioning. So hot in the summer.

Yes.

Unbearable.

And unfortunately, it's most likely going to be in the summer. So send me an email and we'll figure that out. But if I can go to Super Zoo, I can do this.

You can do Texas.

You can for sure, absolutely do it. So, okay, you are. You have the. The book. The book is. The book is now out. You can get it anywhere. You buy books. You're going on tour. So check theherbaldog.com to see if Rita is coming anywhere near you and make sure to get it, because I'm sure the. If tickets are involved, they will go very, very quickly.

Some events have tickets, and usually it covers a book or. And if you, you know, if. If you already have a book, then, you know, you can work it out with the store. And then some events don't. So it just depends on what this. The host wants to do.

Yeah. Yes. And then I know you have other things going on. At the very beginning of this episode, you mentioned a monograph that you did. So can you tell us a little bit about the other offerings you have?

I can tell you what I got. So I have a school. I just started a school. It's called the Ethos School of Canine Herbalistic. Canine Herbalism. But it's at Canine herbalism. Com and you can take single classes. You can study to become a canine herbalist. You can do a lot of things that's going to be growing. And I. I have a lot of stuff going on there. So Canine herbalism. Com. And then I have Canine Herbalist, that's my store, and consulting. And then on my canine herbalism platform, I have a subscription group for 15amonth where you can ask me any question you want. It's the best way to get a hold of me. And it's super economical. And it's like having an herbalist on call. And then I have a monthly monograph subscription service that's $12 a month. And each month we deal with a different plant. And that's just a way to support my work and get a lot of good monographs for plants. So those are fun. Remember, it's a resume of a plant. Tells you all the stuff you need to know to use it. And then I have dental health class. I have a flea class. I have phytoembryonic therapy class, which is another story. And I have a level one herbalism course, too. And then I have a podcast that's free called Dogs are Individuals. It's every week, wherever you get podcasts. I'm on socials at Canine Herbalists under Instagram and Facebook, and I have a private Facebook group, and I'm gonna have a book study group that's at the Herbal Dog on Facebook. There'll be a group. So it's a lot going on. There's a lot.

And then you have to record the audio version.

Yes. Oh, my God, yes. We got invited to be on Audible. You know, like, invited to the Audible studios. So I'm so excited about that. I'm going to record my own book and then it will be on all the book audio platforms. I'm excited about that. I don't know when that's going to happen or how soon, but. But it will happen this year. So we're very excited about that.

And when you run into Mel Robbins, she's going to love you and bring you on her podcast.

Right. We'll just, like, be in the same city or something. Yes, yes.

Well, she is miss Audible. I think so.

Okay, Rita, one question just for our listeners. You do consultations for cats, too, right?

I do. Okay. I do. I do do consultations for cats.

Okay. Just wanted people to know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome.

So awesome. Thank you so much.

Well, Rita, I can't thank you enough for coming on, sharing your knowledge, for everything, all of your hard work, Sweat, blood, Sweat tears that I know went into this book and everything else that you do. And I just want to say thank you again for being here with all of us.

You are welcome. Thank you, Pet health junkies. Thank you.

All right, guys, we'll talk to you next time.

Okay, Bye.

Bye.