Understanding Lipomas | NHP Podcast Ep 08 | Dr. Judy Morgan & Rita Hogan

Hello, pet parents. Welcome to the Naturally Healthy Pets podcast where we empower and educate you to be the best advocate for your pets, giving them a happier, healthier life. Are you confused about all the overwhelming information out there about your pet's health, nutrition and overall wellness? Well, you're in the right place. I'm your host, Dr. Judy Morgan, an integrative veterinarian, author and speaker. Join me for an exciting show where you'll discover the healthy options for raising your pets in a more holistic manner. Find out the answers to your questions during these short and succinct episodes where I chat with experts in the industry and showcase the latest products that will help your pets stay naturally healthy. So let's get to it. My guest today is Rita Hogan and she is a clinical canine herbalist with over 20 years of experience specializing in holistic canine herbalism. And let me tell you, she's pretty brilliant. If you have herbal questions, this is where you need to be. She's an educator, speaker, writer, formulator and herbal medicine maker. She uses a combination of diet, flower essences, herbs and phytoembryonic therapies addressing dog's mind, body and spirit. Because it's not just one thing. We have to treat the whole dog. Rita, thank you so much for agreeing to be on today.

Super excited to be on your show.

Dr. Judy well, and our topic that Rita chose for today I think is something that plagues so many dog owners. In particular, this is pretty rare in kitty cats, although I've seen one or two. And it's understanding lipomas. We get tons of questions about this and there are some things that people can do to help prevent lipomas from forming to begin with. But first of all, Rita, tell us what a lipoma is. For anybody who is not familiar with.

That term, it's a fatty tumor. So I mean, it's pliable. You usually can reach underneath it. Sometimes it's in the musculature. So those are a little more complicated. But most of them are on the neck, chest, sometimes in the back of the legs, on the flanks. And they freak people out. You know, a lot of people will have them aspirated and the vet will say, you know, this is a lipoma and there's not much you can do about it, which I disagree with. But yeah, I mean, you know, a lot of times you'll hear that they're common in geriatric dogs, but, you know, we're seeing them in, I've seen them in one to two year old dogs now so it's not just a geriatric issue. It's not just a breed issue. Some breeds are more, you know, have a. More of a proponency to get lipomas, but that doesn't mean that will actually happen. There's lots we can do to kind of deter that process. And there's also lots we can do to get rid of lipomas. We just have to figure out, you know, why they formed in the first place.

Exactly. And interestingly, when before I had Cavaliers, I had Dobermans. So Doberman's a larger breed of dog. We do see more of these definitely in larger breeds than we do in the smaller breeds. And at the time, I was feeding dry kibble to my dogs, and they would. I remember one of our dogs, my kids were very little at the time, and he was a geriatric dog, and he was just the most lumpy, bumpy dog. And we sat there one day and we counted 80 lumps on this dog. Most, I think all of them were lipomas, but literally he had lumps everywhere. At the time, I didn't know anything about holistic medicine. So this is going way back. And he was being fed absolutely improperly, over vaccinated, over medicated, too many chemicals. And when I made changes to a holistic lifestyle, I've never had problems with lipomas since then. So we definitely can look at some of the causes that help dogs make lipomas. But you have in your notes the lipoma liver connection. I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on this, because from a Chinese medicine perspective, I have some thoughts on this as well.

So.

So tell me about the lipoma liver connection.

Well, one of the things. So the way that I look at the dog is, you know, the dogs in general is they're an ecosystem. And, you know, the liver is definitely at the kind of like sharing the space with the heart as far as being, you know, the processor of toxins. You know, it's. You know, a lot of people think liver is full of toxins. It's not. It's bypass. It's a bypass organ. You know, it's not full of toxins. It processes toxins. And one of my mentors had, I would say it was about 19, 18, 19 years ago, said to me, you know, lipomas are the liver's way of walling off toxins and bat cells, where, of course, we keep. Our dogs, keep the toxins off when they can't. When it. When it can't do its job and when it's stagnant. When it's congested, when it has too much heat, it will throw off and form these lipomas. And it's the same thing with, you know, tumor based cancers. You know, cancer is toxicity. So the body has an amazing way of protecting itself. And lipomas for me are kind of like little satellite livers. They're storing those toxins and that's why people say, you know, the lipoma hasn't shrunk fast enough. Well, we don't want it to shrink super fast because it will flood the body with everything that's in that lipoma if it, if it, you know, it's absorbed. And then also lipomas can exit. They, you know, I've had, I have a basset hound who came to me, kibble fed over, vaccinated, just a mess. She had a, an avocado sized tumor or lipoma on the tip of her butt right next to her tail. And then she had a huge one right on the back of her body between her shoulder blades. And those are both gone now. They actually started draining and I was able to, you know, kind of take them out externally just by draining them and giving her draining herbs to help the body or lymphatic system. And it was pretty gross. It was really gross. And I have a great picture of what the inside of a big lipoma looks like. And it's not pretty, but it doesn't smell and some people are afraid of that. But I have found that with lipoma like strategies, they can either go inside or outside. I do see that a lot of large ones tend to start draining outward and then a lot of the, you know, smaller ones that are less than I would say maybe like a half dollar size will, will be absorbed by the body.

I would agree with that. And interesting thing that I saw in practice because some of these lipomas can get huge, I mean watermelon size, just absolutely huge. And so I had, this is the first one of these that I experienced and then I saw it many more times later in practice. And but I had this 16 year old Dalmatian and he wasn't very strong in the hindquarters and he fell and when he fell his one hind leg, he had a huge lipoma inside that leg, kind of inside the thigh. And when he fell, he fell on that leg on top of that tumor and then the whole leg swelled up and that tumor did end up draining externally, which we don't see that often. But what happens on these really huge tumors is, is they get so big, they actually cut off their own blood supply in the interior, so they start to liquefy and die off in the center of the tumor. And that's what happened with this dog. It's. It's not an infection, so it kind of drains out looking a little bit like pus, but it's not an infection. It's just dead tissue. And when he fell, he basically popped it. So I saw quite a few of these. Those I really would prefer not to have the lipoans get so large that your dog, when he falls down on it, is going to have this sort of situation. But it was great because once it drained, then it was gone and done. And that was a much better proposition for that dog because then he was able to walk better. But the interesting thing that I noted over 38 years of practice and once I knew something about TCVM is, and I love that you say the liver connection, because I agree these are just toxins that are walled off and they kind of had nowhere to go. But we see them along the gallbladder meridian. That is the most common area. So coming down under the neck, under the armpits, along the flanks, inside the back legs. And so I started seeing them over and over and over. And once I learned about meridians, it's like, oh, son of a gun. Well, the liver and gallbladder are the elements of the wood or the organs of the wood element. So it makes perfect sense because the liver and gallbladder are so closely intertwined. So I love that connection between. And I love that they're little external livers.

And the interesting thing that you say that, that it's on the gallbladder meridian. So, you know, the gallbladder releases bile, and bile helps the body break down fats and oils. And a lot of dogs, they. With modern diet and, you know, kind of what we're putting in them and on them, they have a hard time breaking down pecs and oils, especially dogs that are way too damp. And, you know, dampness can be a huge issue in dogs right now with, you know, a lot of, like, some people will say to me, well, my dog eats raw, and he's still got. He still has all these lipomas. Well, I am a raw food advocate, for sure. Raw and cooked in instances. But is your dog eating an energetically appropriate raw diet? And are they able to break down fats and oils? Do they have enough stomach acid? You know, is their microbiome healthy enough? You know, like, is there, basically. And also, like, they're poor Thing, you know, the portal vein is of how the liver and gallbladder talk to the small intestine. You know, a lot of times you can get stagnancy in that vein and things aren't, you know, it's a two way vein. So it's not, it's not getting rid of toxins as well as it should. It's also not nourishing and feeding the cells as well as it should. And then you have the lymphatic system which carries your fats and that's not working the way it should. And I, I was talking to a vet friend of mine the other day and I said, you know, we never care about the lymphatic system, which I could talk about for hours. People should be actually shouting it from the rooftops. You know, like we have to start stimulating our dog's lymphatic system. You know, dogs need more exercise, they definitely need lymphatic stimulation. And I, and when the lymphatics are kind of addressed, then I really start seeing movement in these lipomas. And when you mentioned, you know, they can get bigger and bigger, I think that two things that help, like even if you can't really figure out how to get to the, like what strategy to use for the lipoma and we can talk about different causes in a minute. But two things that I have found that work really well at keeping the lipoma from getting low, larger besides changing your diet is maitake and turkey tail mushroom. So those two I really haven't had found a dog that in the right dosage and you have to figure out your dosage and usually it's a lot higher than you would think. So you know, in herbalism there's low dosages, which I love, but sometimes we need more of a material dose, which is a larger dose and to keep these tumors from growing, you know, from expanding. And those two, those two mushrooms are very anti tumor and they have a very good relationship to the liver and getting the phase two detoxification in the liver to increase. And that's what we really want to do. We want to slow down base one and we don't need to get into that. But like when you, when we want to slow down phase one and we want to increase phase two so then the liver can keep up with all of this stuff that we're throwing at, you know, naturally we have issues, you know, just kind of breathing our dogs just kind of existing. And then there's all things that, you know, we do, we put on an inner dog that the, that our, the liver has to deal with. So those two mushrooms are really good at pink keeping, keeping the lipomas from growing. And I would say let's just, let's just take a Cavalier King Charles as an example. You know, so what, the average cavalier probably weighs about 20 to 25 pounds. You think 20, we can go with 20. 20. So it's kind of, you know, a different, for me it would be a pug. For you it's a cavalier about the same weight. I would say for turkey tail mushroom, for specifically for preventing lipomas and keeping lipomas from getting larger, I would say the dosage is going to be about a half a gram twice a day, which is a larger dose for a dog that size.

So you're talking like a turkey tail powder?

Yes, hot water extracted powder. Mushrooms has a good one, a hot water extracted powder. It needs to be hot water extracted and then it's usually dried. That's kind of a high dose for a dog that size and you may even need to go up to a gram. But there is no, there is not, they're not known for toxicity. Even in really, really large doses. Like a cancer dose for that size dog would be like 3 grams twice a day, which is a lot. But you know, with these, with the cancer, you know, you kind of need a hammer, you need to force the body to react. And I'd say with lipomas you're kind of, you're kind of just using a mallet instead of a hammer. And, and I think it's important to push instead of support. You know, by the time your dog starts forming lipomas, we're kind of out of the, out of the supportive role. We kind of, kind of have to push a little. And, and those two mushrooms are awesome.

Awesome. So what does, what other remedies do you recommend? Like how, how are. So let's say the dog already has a, let's say we have my Doberman with 80 bumps. What kind of remedies would you recommend? Obviously mushrooms may be a part of that, but what other herbs can we add in that could be helpful? And I also want you to address diet a little more like where you might recommend going diet wise for these dogs that are forming tons of lipomas.

Okay, so I'll, I'll cover like, kind of like why some, like there's different reasons why dogs get lipomas. We'll just touch on that and then touch on diet and then we'll get into some herbs.

Lets talk lipomas Lipomas are a result of the body trying to relieve itself of an overabundance of toxins. So how can we help our pets detox? Dr. Judy recommends adored Beast Apothecary's Liver Tonic Support and detoxifier to support liver, kidney, pancreas and gallbladder function. You can get it@naturallyhealthypets.com I also want to talk about Dr. Judy's newest book, Raising Naturally Healthy a guide to helping your pets live longer. It's rated a number one best seller in several categories on Amazon. So you know it's good. Dr. Judy shares her insight on vaccinations, parasite prevention, diet, natural first aid, remedies, if and when to spay and neuter, and so much more. Get your copy@naturallyhealthypets.com you can even get a signed copy from Dr. Judy while supplies last. And as a thank you to our podcast listeners, use code PODCAST04 for 10% off the liver tonic and book. Now let's get back to Dr. Judy and our guest Rita Hogan.

There's a few things, so quite a few pharmaceuticals can cause lipomas more than not. Levoxothyroxine is one of them. And not saying to take your talk off of their thyroid medicine, but if your dog is taking that medicine and forming consistently forming new lipomas, it definitely probably is that medicine. I've seen it in a lot of cases. Gabapentin is another one that I see dogs get on gabapentin and then within like two to three months they're forming lipobas all over the place. NSAIDs are another one that are really hard on the liver and tend to I definitely attribute them to lipomas. One surprising cause of lipomas, this is the same for humans as well is tick borne disease. So dogs that test positive for Lyme as well as co infections can form lipomas very easily. And the interesting thing, in the last two years I started carrying these two products in my store which were the professional formulas line Nosode and the tick pathogen nosode. And I use those two formulas a lot for Lyme and co infections as a part of a protocol. But the interesting thing is when the dogs in my practice that I was working with started taking those two formulas, their lipomas went away. And I you know, and it's definitely anecdotal, however I would say definitely more than six cases consistently their lipomas went away I would say in about three to four months.

Wow.

And then I started doing some research on tick borne disease related to lipomas and the research of course is on humans but definitely the correlation between tick borne disease and the formation multiple lipo lipomas it's usually not one. It's where lipomas start to you know, kind of like your Doberman had, what do you say, 60 lipomas?

80.

You know I was thinking on the bright side but yeah, you know it's associated, the research is associated with multiple lipomas and it's probably due to the fact of biofilm and the role that the congesting role that Lyme disease and co infections has on the immune system and also the liver and hyper stimulating that immune system. So it's keeping the liver and the immune system pretty busy and I can see where it would be an open door to cause more lip homes and well enough of tissue.

Interesting.

So I found that very interesting. Dr. Judy about, about that and so I just wanted to mention that.

Yeah, that does.

Have never heard that. Yeah. To do a tick check do, do a c. An anti. What is it? C6 antibody.

The C6. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C6 antibody and see where those numbers are at. It doesn't necessarily mean that your dog has Lyme disease but it does mean that they have been subjected to those types of antibodies and it might be worth doing a homeopathic. No. So it's not going to hurt your dog and see if it has any results in bringing those lipoma is down. So but generally we're talking about liver congestion and so as far as foods are concerned I definitely would get off your kibble diet. I would move to a fresh food diet but that's you know, you can't stop there. You want to make sure that you're adding digestive enzymes. You want to make sure if you're doing a cooked diet, if your dog has moved from kibble too cooked or too raw. I find that adding digestive enzymes for three to six months is a very good especially when has moved from kibble to cooked or to raw. I find that adding digestive enzymes for three to six months is a very good especially when you're switching over to raw is very good because I find that the, the digestive system isn't very know not a lot of digestive fire as far as hydrochloric acid and but histamine response, you know calling for digestive enzymes and in the body after you quit kibble and some of those residues depending on the kibble like you know, am I able to, can I mention a brand or not? Sure. Okay. So a Brand that I was just speaking to a client this morning. Her dog was on science diet. And science diet is extremely congesting, not a lot of protein, very, very inflammatory ingredients. And those types of residues take a while to get out of the body and for the liver to process and, you know, and start, you know, start those metabolic changes when there's not all of that kind of in over hypersensitive, sensitive immune response. And so adding those digestive enzymes for about three to six months after you switch over to raw is a good idea. And then we have, you know, you know, you're a TCM practitioner. Western herbalism looks at it just a tiny bit differently, but it's about the same thing, like dampening foods. So lipomas are definitely dampness. You know, they're not, they don't come from dryness, they come from dampness. You kind of want to dry your dog out. And there's lots of herbs that can do that. But food is the most important thing that we do, more than important than any herb. Food is consistent. It's every day, sometimes twice a day. And we definitely have to look at the diet. And so like, you want to avoid things like pork, you want to avoid fatty meats like lamb. You know, lamb's very good for dogs that are very weak and deficient and cold. But it also is one of those meats that you want to avoid when you have lipomas. Another fatty meat is duck. If you're, you say, well, you know, my dog, my dog's so sensitive, you can only deal with duck. Then we add herbs that help the body deal with dampness and also help process fats and oils. Like the best one out there is burdock root. But like, we want to avoid things that add dampness. You know, green lip muscle is very popular and very, you know, it's, it's a, it's a healthy addition to dogs that need that type of support. But it's, their muscles are also very dampening, you know, and dairy, even if it's raw dampening, eggs, honey, you know, spirulina, slippery elm, marshmallow root, any type of like big mucilage herb that has a lot of mucilage, which is like that gooey texture, it's going to add some dampness. So we want to just kind of be mindful of that in the diet until the lipomas have subsided and then we can reconfigure that and add more of a balance drying foods. And of course, dogs are individuals, so this isn't Going to work for everyone. And with lipomas, you just got to keep tweaking. But celery, alfalfa, chamomile, if your dog's nice and cool, turmeric, parsley, pumpkin, ginger, kelp, seaweed. One thing that I learned from a vet was, and I found this so interesting, but it makes so much sense when you look at the energetics of the end result of the food was baked sweet potatoes. So sweet potatoes are drying anyways. However, when you bake them, you kind of, like, superpower that sweet potato. It, you know, kind of a very. It, like, kind of. You said you never heard that line component. I never heard about dried sweet potatoes as a method for getting rid of lipomas. I thought that was super interesting and. And definitely worth a try. Not boiled, only baked, like roasted. And so I found it interesting. The way that we do prepare our foods affects our dog constitution. Like, for instance, one of the things that I tell people never, ever do is feed cold food. And so. And. And you would not believe the amount of people that feed cold food. And usually it's because, like, I don't have time, but, like, taking that food out of the refrigerator and dropping it in that cold temperature does so much damage, and it does build dampness. Yeah. And so we want to just be mindful of the temperature of the food. It doesn't need to be hot, but it needs superpower. That sweet potato. It, you know, kind of a very, like, kind of. You said you never heard that line component. I never heard about dried sweet potatoes as a method for getting rid of lipomas. I thought that was super interesting and. And definitely worth a try. Not boiled, only baked, like roasted, and needs to be room temperature. And for those dogs that are more on the cool side, it's nice to warm it up just a little bit. And you can do that with just a little bit of, like, infusion or water. Just warm it up a little bit so it's not cold. So those are some diet strategies. And then herbs. I love talking about herbs. So the herbs that I use for lipomas are varied and vast, but the. There's two of them that I start out with for almost every dog. And I haven't seen a lot of dogs that are intolerant to these two herbs. But if your dog is cool, like, if they love to, you know, just bake at the fire, they love dry wood heat or they are. So I found that interesting. The way that we do prepare our foods affects our dog constitution. Like, for instance, one of the things that I tell people never ever do is feed cold food. Right. And so and. And you would not believe the amount of people that feed cold food. And usually it's because, like sitting on the heat bed or want to be covered up, they're most likely more on the cool side. So. And those dogs that like, love to lay on the cold floor, that seek out cool places, they're most likely on the warm side. Not always, but most so if your dog is more cool. Calendula. Calendula tincture. You only need like we're just going to use a King Charles again as an example. King Charles spaniel. Two drops right in the mouth twice a day will help stimulate the lymphatics. You can go up to five drops, but I've never had to use that much for a small dog, which I would do with King Charles. Chihuahua is a much smaller dog. Would just be a single drop, like one little drop coming out of the dropper. I don't have time. But like taking that food out of the refrigerator and dropping it twice a day really helps stimulate those lymphatics. If you had like a Irish wolfhound in that cold, temperature does so much damage and it does build dampness.

Yep.

And so we want to just be mindful of the temperature of the food. It doesn't need to be hot, but it needs to be room temperature. And for those dogs that are more on the cool side, it's nice to warm it. The dose would be about five to six drops. And that's going to help warm the core. And so for a warm dog, you're going to help cool the core, which is cleavers. And cleavers is a very good lymphatic. It's good for lipomas. Same dosages. So King Charles two drops, you know, like corgi, three to four, golden retriever four to five and big dog, five to six. Like huge dog. Cool. I like to look at kind of energetics and so like warm dog or cool dogs. Let's just talk about cool dogs in life just a little bit. And you can do that with just a little bit of like infusion or water. Just warm it up a little bit so it's not cold. So those are some diet strategies. And then great herbs. I love talking about herbs. So the herbs that I use for lipomas are varied and vamos. So cool dogs. The herbs that I would try first, ashwagandha, especially if they have hypothyroid, turmeric and calendula and self heal and Self heal is prunella vulgaris. It's the Latin name for self heal. And those are the herbs that I would add. I would probably add all of those, you know, and start them about seven days apart so you can see if your dog's okay with them. Give about three days asked. But the. There's two of them that I start out with for almost every dog. And in between at definitely three days because it takes about 72 hours for, for an herb. Just. I haven't seen a lot of dogs that are intolerant to these two herbs. But if your dog is cool, like if they love to be, you know, just bake at the fire, they love dry wood heat or they are always sitting on the heat vent or want to be covered up. They're most likely more on the cool side. So. And they'll kind of sit in the body and for your dog to get used to it, like the first day, you know, when you add an herb like cleavers, which has. Is a diuretic, it's going to make your dog pee a little more, but it may give them a loose stool just like for the first 24 hours. And then it will, it will be fine. So just give about three days to get your dog to get used to. To it. And that's just kind of a how to use herbs kind of guideline. And then warm dogs, dogs that are, you know, pantosuli that, you know, love cool spots, cleavers, burdock root, chickweed and Violet. Those three are fab. And, and Dr. Judy, I can definitely give you like dogs that like love to lay on the cold floor, that seek out cool places. They're most likely on the warm side. Not always, but most so if your dog is more cool. Calendula. Calendula tincture. You only need like we're just going to use a King Charles again as an example. King Charles spank a little PDF with these like kind of dosages and stuff that you could share with your peeps.

That would be amazing because we are at the end of our time and I'm sitting here writing notes as fast as I can. I could barely keep up. But oh my gosh, this is like such a wealth of it. You are brilliant. So for those of you who want more information about herbs and I do believe that Rita offers herbal consultations as well.

I do.

The website is canineherbalist.com and Rita is also going to make available a free flea course that you can download from her website. And, and then if we can get a PDF with these herbs and you.

Know, two drops right in the mouth twice a day will help stimulate the lymphatics. You can go up to five drops but I've never had to use that much for a small dog which I would do with King Charles Chihuahua is a much smaller dog would just be a single drop, like one little drop coming out of the dropper doses. I'll get you that today for dose.

Getting rid of lipomas because this is a huge problem for so many pet owners and actually my husband has one on his side and I would love to make it go away. So the the man is going to get some herbs.

Well and in the PDF I will. There's also some homeopathics that really work great for humans and some other strategies that I'll include.

So thank you so much. This is, this has been amazing. Rita, I thank you so much for being a guest. Keep up the good work and we'll talk again soon.

Okay, take care. Twice a day really helps stimulate those lynthatics. If you had like a Irish wolfhound, the dose would be about five to six drops and that's going to help warm the core.

Thanks for listening to another great Naturally Healthy pets episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for some help.

And so for a warm dog you're going to help cool the core which is cleavers. And Cleaver's is a very good lymphatic. It's good for lipomas.

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The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Dr. Judy and her guests express their own views, experience and conclusions. Dr. Judy Morgan's naturally Healthy Pets neither endorses or opposes any particular view discussed here. Same dosages. So King Charles 2 drops. You know, like Corgi 3 to 4, Golden Retriever 4 to 5 and Big Dog 5 to 6 like Huge Dog. Cool. I like to look at kind of energetics and so like warm dog or cool dogs. Let's just talk about Cool dogs and lipomas. So cool dogs. The herbs that I would try first, ashwagandha, especially if they have hypothyroid turmeric and calendula and self heal. And Self heal is prunella vulgaris. It's the Latin name for self heal. And those are the herbs that I would add. I would probably add all of those, you know, and start them about seven days apart so you can see if your dog's okay with them. Give about three days in between at definitely three days because it takes about 72 hours for. For an herb just to kind of sit in the body and for your dog to get used to it. Like the first day, you know, when you add an herb like cleavers, which has. Is a diuretic, it's going to make your dog pee a little more, but it may give them a loose stool just like for the first 24 hours and then it will. It will be fine. So just give about three days to get your dog to get you to it. And that's just kind of a how to use herbs kind of guideline. And then warm dogs, dogs that are, you know, pantosuli that, you know, love cool spots, cleavers, burdock root, chickweed and Violet. Those three are fab. And. And Dr. Judy, I can definitely give you like a little PDF with these, like kind of dosages and stuff that you share with your peeps.

That would be amazing because we are at the end of our time and I'm sitting here writing notes as fast as I can. I could barely keep up. But oh my gosh, this is like such a. Well, the. But you are brilliant. So for those of you who want more information about herbs, and I do believe that Rita offers herbal consultations as well.

I do.

The website is canineherbalist.com and Rita is also going to make available a free flea course that you can.