247 Using "Pre-suasion" to influence others: Interview with Dr. Robert Cialdini

Welcome to the Mindset Game Podcast. I'm your host, Vered Kogan, high performance coach and speaker. Each week we share leading strategies and techniques to help you leverage the incredible power of your mind to adapt better to change and create your best life. Ever wondered what truly separates good communicators from master ethical persuaders? It's not just about crafting the perfect message. It's about what happens before the message is even delivered. And today we're diving into the groundbreaking concept that has revolutionized the way leaders, marketers, and negotiators approach influence. It's called pre-suasion. And who better to guide us through this than the godfather of influence himself, Dr. Robert Cialdini. Bob, welcome back to the show.

Thank you. I'm very much looking forward to our conversation.

Thank you. So I'm going to share a little bit about your background for those that didn't get to hear our other episode or have not yet heard of you. With over 4 decades of rigorous scientific research and even undercover fieldwork, Dr. Cialdini is the world's foremost expert on ethical persuasion. He's the author of Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, a book that sold over 8 million copies and changed the landscape of business communication. And Dr. Cialdini and I, as I mentioned, have had a conversation about the 7 principles of influence in episode 212 of the Minds Game podcast. And today we're turning our focus to Bob's more recent research on pre-suasion. And to his New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling book called Pre-Suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade. It truly unlocks a hidden truth, which is the moment before you speak with someone is just as critical, if not more so, than the message itself. And Dr. Cialdini explains how the most successful persuaders don't just change minds, they change states of mind by carefully directing focus And Attention to Pave the Way for a Yes. So again, welcome, Dr. Cialdini. It's really such an honor to have you on the show. I have followed your research, as you know, for many years, as many leaders have, and you've really transformed ethical influence, how to really persuade others in a way that honors integrity and, of course, scientific research of human psychology.

Well, thank you. Those two features, uh, ethical components of what we do and the research base of the conclusions we draw are really critical to the way that I think we ought to be interacting with the business community. They should be assured that the work that we're talking about and the conclusions we hope to draw come from scientifically conducted, properly controlled research. And secondly, that we think that the long-term interests of any business organization are to be ethical in their communications. That leads to people wanting to continue to work with us. Yeah.

That's right. And to creating a world that is based on integrity and treating people the way that they should be treated. And so in our last episode, we focused on influence and what it tells us about the practice of successful Persuasion. And then of course, 30 years later, you wrote the second book, Persuasion. So I'm curious, what took you 30 years to write this follow-up to Influence?

To be honest, I never had an idea big enough to follow Influence until Pre-Suasion came along. You know, I didn't want to be in a position of planting a lot of bushes around the tree that influence had become. I wanted to wait until I had the seed for another tree, and that didn't occur until the idea for pre-suasion developed.

What exactly is pre-suasion and how does it differ from influence?

So of course, the book Influence talks about persuasion in which we insert into our message Factors, principles of influence that incline people toward assent. Persuasion, it doesn't look at what we do inside the message. It looks at the moment before we deliver that message and what we can arrange for it that will make the people who have yet to receive our message more inclined to it even though they haven't received it yet. I mean, that sounds like magic, doesn't it? It's not magic. It's proven behavioral science. So let's take an example from a study that was done by the Norwegian Cruise Line a few years ago. They wanted to have a sale for holiday cruises. This was back a few years ago, and they sent an email blast to all of their former customers, the people who had cruised with them, telling them about this holiday promotion and that it was at a good discount, but the discount was time limited. They only had a certain amount of time in which to make their choice. And indeed, inside the email that all potential new customers got, or repeat customers got. There was a big clock, a digital clock that was counting down the amount of time necessary to make the decision. And of course, that's the scarcity principle that we've talked about before. People want more of those things they can have less of. And so those things that are scarce or rare or dwindling in availability, a clock ticking down, that makes them more attracted to that opportunity. Okay. Well, what Norwegian Cruise Line did was for half of the recipients of that email blast, they put two clicking down clocks in the subject line of that message. The others didn't get those clocks. Then when they went in, they saw the time-limited message, right? but they had been pre-alerted to the concept of scarcity. They had been primed for scarcity. Those people were 15% more likely to book a cruise. Now, I actually called Norwegian Cruise Lines to see how that worked out, and they said, well, actually, we got over 100% increase in profit because of all of the profit centers on a cruise. They sell art, they have excursions that they offer, they have upgraded restaurant packages and alcohol and so on. If you put that together, those 15% more people increased the profit for that cruise opportunity by over 100%. So one small thing, what they put in the subject line that conditioned people, that primed people for the concept of scarcity, the concept of limited availability produced that big effect. So, you know, this, this television commercial for Capital One credit cards, what's in your wallet, right? Here's what I'm gonna ask your listeners. What's in your subject line? Don't waste that first moment before people encounter your message with some kind of wording or imagery or even an emoji that highlights the strength of your message so people are primed for it before they encounter it. And are readied for it as a consequence. Another example, this is one I love, was a study done in a wine shop in which as customers entered the wine shop, they heard on the PA system music of one sort or another. And they either heard French music or German music before they even looked at a bottle of wine or walked down an aisle. Those people who heard French music were more likely to buy French vintages. Those who heard German music were more likely to buy German wines because the concept of things French or things German had been elevated into consciousness before they encountered it, and they had been readied for one or another of those categories. So that's the idea of persuasion. What do you do before you send your message that inclines people to focus on a particular aspect of your offerings that you think would be an especially wise choice for them?

I love these examples. And what was going through my mind when you talked about the headline example with the Norwegian Cruise Line is even things like a LinkedIn profile, what you have as your kind of headline message for people before they scroll down and see the rest of it, if they even decide to scroll down and see the rest of it. Those kinds of things are really, really important. Even email messages. Anytime that we want to communicate and influence, it's important to keep that in mind.

That's right. We can, with those headlines or even subheadlines, focus people on the aspect of the text coming next that we want them to be most alert to. And giving them that heading or subheading, the wording of it should focus them on the thing in that text that we want them to be most focused on.

Yeah. Or even like with the second example of the wine shop and the music, I was thinking about how realtors sometimes will bake cookies for people who come in. And I don't know if that's considered influence or persuasion because they're already in the home, but it seems like it's the same idea. It's getting them into a certain state that will The land is then—

Yes. And I've talked to them and they say it's not the cookies, it's the scent of the cookies that reminds them of home, essentially, and holidays in a favorable home environment. So that is pre-suasion. Before they even come to the tour, they have a scent of something that brings them to a mindset that is conducive to wanting to pay more attention to the offer. Yeah.

Yeah. And thank you for bringing up that word mindset. And we've talked about that before in our last conversation, especially as it pertains to change management, which was a little bit more of our focus in the last conversation. And there is something about our mental, emotional, physical state impacting how we think. Yes. In that moment, what are the thoughts that we have access to? So I think it is really powerful to be able to consider in advance how we can use these principles to help people to feel the way that they need to feel in order to make a decision that is highest and best for them. Because when we ethically influence, it's because we believe the home, the wine, whatever it is, is going to be helpful to them. So always to consider what is that state.

Yeah. And you're right to say feelings are one of the things we can arrange for people to share with us before they get to our message, but also cognitions. Work to. So scarcity, for example, the idea of limited access, but it could be what is it that is most wise for your prospects to focus on that will cause them to make the best choice? Is it the durability of your product or service? Is it the reliability? Is it the popularity? Is it the price? Is it the comfort level? What it is. So you want to put that first so that people will go to that thing that is the wisest feature for them to focus on and choose. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you. And so many of our listeners, as you know, are corporate leaders, decision makers. So how can companies integrate the principles of pre-suasion into their sales, into their marketing, their management strategies?

Let me give you some examples, but before we do, let's just take a look at the general approach here. You know, the great ancient Chinese master of war, General Sun Tzu, said every battle is won before it's fought. That's just brilliant. You have to think ahead so you plan what's going to happen when you get into the arena. Right? Have you ever heard this saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink?

Yes.

Yes. If what you're focused on is the water, not the state of mind or the condition that the horse is in. I know how to lead a horse to water and make it drink. Feed the horse first or exercise the horse first. And now they want the water. That's the key. It's what you're doing before the battle, as General Sun Tzu would say. Okay, so let's take some examples of how businesses could employ this. Let's say that you have a competitive proposal for business with a customer, and there are other rival companies that are also in the mix for this. And you have an interview with the company. and you have to present your case, or one of your representatives have to. What is typically done there is we say to the evaluators, well, we're so glad that you invited us, and we want to answer any of the questions you have for us. That's typical. Here's what a persuasion communicator would do. He or she would say, but I'm curious. Why did you invite us to this interview? What is it about our company that attracted you to this meeting today, about to our products and services? What is it? And they will tell you all of the strengths that they see in your offer, in your products and services, in your organization before You have to do it. They will have sold themselves by, and one another in the room, because some people will say, well, I think it's your products. And other people, well, I think it's your experience. And other people will say, well, I think it's your track record. And they will be convincing one another. So before, just ask, what is it that attracted you to our company today? So you start them off. With reminding them of your strengths. And they're convincing themselves. You don't have to do it to the same extent. Okay, so let's say you've won the contract. So that's the first thing. And you may have an— after working with them for a while, you have an add-on that you see could greatly benefit their productivity and of course your reputation for bringing it to them. But before you propose it, you want to get the buy-in of certain members of the company who are strategically placed. If you could get them on your side, then carrying it up the ladder to the top would be much easier. So what you typically will do is contact those people with an outline of your idea or a summary of a blueprint and try to get their input on it, right, before you send it. And what you typically do is ask for their opinion. Could you give me your opinion on this? That's a mistake. Not to get their buy-in, that's exactly the right thing. It's to ask for their opinion. Because when you ask for an opinion, you get a critic. You get someone who steps away from you, goes inside themselves, and takes a critical point of view to your idea. If you change one word and substitute, instead of opinion, can I get your advice on this? Now, instead of getting a critic, you get a partner, a collaborator on this. And the research is very clear. I mean, there's multiple studies done on this. If you ask for advice rather than opinion or feedback, they also showed the same thing happens with feedback. You get more favorable evaluations of your idea And because they are your partner in this, they give you better recommendations of how to improve it. So that's another thing we can do before we begin the process. Change the word to advice.

I love these ideas that are so powerful and such relatively small changes. And with this particular example, it brings to mind the idea that everybody wants to be to be truly validated and heard and acknowledged and respected for their advice. And so it makes sense that that would hit a different emotional chord.

You're exactly right. In fact, Ben Franklin has a statement: we always appreciate the wisdom of those who ask for our advice. So you're respecting their wisdom. By asking for their advice. I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. And what's really cool is that when they're in that more positive state, because they feel, again, respected and valued, they're more coherent. So probably the input that you get back is probably higher quality, as you said anyway.

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. I have one more thing that you could do. So let's say you get that buy-in and the general idea is accepted, but now you have to submit a budget. For it, what can you do to make it more likely that that budget will be accepted? You'll get fewer pushback attempts to try to slim it down, right? And that is, let's say you do your homework and you have checked through all of the costs, expenses, the time that's going to be involved, and it turns out to be $150,000. $421 to do this. Well, what you typically would do is lop off the $421 and say our budget is $150,000 for this. That's a mistake. Don't use round numbers for budgets because people think that you have done a more credible job of pricing out the project if you show them the detail that it's not a round number. Where did you get that round number? Where did you just pull it out of the top of your head? Where'd you get that round number? Well, no. If you have $150,421, they see that you have done your homework. You really have thought about this. You've weighed in on all of the pro— the pros and cons and prices. And do you remember in high school and in college, in our math classes or science classes, on an exam, the professor would say, don't just show me the answer to this question. Show me your work. Show me evidence of how you got there. Well, that's what I'm going to ask with budgets. When you've done your budget, it's always gonna come out to some non-round number. Use that number rather than rounding it off. And the research shows you get less pushback on that number because people see it as better researched. Wow.

And I'm curious if you've done any research on this or familiar, like what about with scheduling to show your availability from a scarcity perspective? Let's say you really don't have a lot of time. Rather than saying I'm available the morning of, let's say, this day next week, to say I'm available between 9:20 to 10:45. Does that make a difference?

That's exactly right. That's exactly the same concept but applied to another domain like scheduling. So people know, oh yeah, you're not just talking about generalities. You know what you're talking about. And this is reality. It's not just something general.

Fascinating. So what are some of the best ways for leaders to establish some of that trust?

You're right to focus on trust. I think that is increasingly important in the modern business world and modern life because we have so much information, so many challenges, so many rival opinions and so on. Well, I'm going to defer to Warren Buffett on this, who of course is the head of Berkshire Hathaway, this remarkable investor. And I get his annual letter to shareholders and I read it for hints, not just about how to invest, but how to present the case for Berkshire Hathaway. And So I have trust in what they are telling me about their future prospects and so on. Okay. What I've noticed is that what Buffett does on the first page of text of every letter, he describes something that went wrong that year, a mistake they made. And he says, this is what we thought would happen and we were wrong. That won't happen again because we've put things in place now to correct for that mistake. And the results are that every time I read this, I say to myself, wow, these people are being straight with me. What's the next thing they say? So now I'm in the mindset of trusting these folks, and that's when they present their strongest case. First, they get trustworthiness established by admitting a weakness, and he does it every year. And the interesting thing was what happened, I think it was 2009. That year, things were so successful they didn't have anything that went wrong. They only had successes. So what Buffett did on the front page was describe a mistake they had made in 1994 when he bought Dexter Shoes, and he did it by paying for it with company shares and so on. And he said, I will never do that again. I will never do that. That was a mistake we learned from. So If there wasn't a mistake that year, he brought one from a decade earlier just to reinforce his trustworthiness in being willing to be straight with people and tell them not just the pros, but also the cons of investing in Berkshire Hathaway. We make mistakes too, but once we do, we correct them. So I would take a cue from Buffett. Here.

And again, trust is everything, as we know, and especially during times of uncertainty when we may not be able to trust a lot of things in our external world. We want to be able to trust that the human being that we're working with is trustworthy. Yes. That no matter what storms come about during our relationship, that we can trust that they have our back, that they're going to do their best. So where my mind goes to is through the lens of change in organizations. And how can persuasion be used to build trust ahead of change? And based on what you've just described with Warren Buffett, what I thought was if people have some objections in their mind about the change not working out, let's say there's already some resistance to say right off the bat, we're aware that if we do this, that these things might happen, or maybe that in the past it didn't work.

Right.

Right. If it didn't or something similar didn't work. And then, of course, to talk about what they learned from that or what they're gonna do differently.

Right, right. I think that's exactly right. There was a study of CEOs' annual reports where they described something that didn't go well that year. And they looked at those that then put the responsibility on factors outside of their company, that it was the weather events, or it was a breakdown in the supply chain, or the manufacturers of whatever it was. And those who took responsibility for it and said, we did not think this through properly. We didn't take into account the possibility that there might be a supply chain thing. And we have learned from that. We've now put into place procedures that will protect us from making that mistake. One year later, the share price of that second group was significantly higher. Than of the first group, because observers said, oh, these people, if there's something wrong, they fix it. They account for it and remedy the problem. I can trust them more than those people who just shrug their shoulders and say it was the weather. Yeah.

So I have a quick question about credibility, because we all know that we need to build credibility in order to have the influence that we wish to have. And so specifically the question that's coming up for me is related to some people like underselling themselves, not feeling confident to, let's say, self-promote. Yes, of course you've got some other people on the other extreme that oversell themselves. How can your principles and specifically like maybe even persuasion help people to build credibility, like personal credibility, authority as we know it.

Yeah. And one is to be sure that your credentials are available to people before they make a decision. It's a tricky process because doing so in person, I can't sit down in front of you and say, before we begin, let me tell you how great I really am. That goes against all the rules. And what happens is that we lose credibility when we are the promoters of our our own background experience and credentials. We need to do that either by having somebody else do it for us, or we send ahead our credentials, our resume, in some kind of a written form. So we're not presenting it face to face, and that allows people to take the time to see what we have to bring to the table in terms of credibility. and without us having to be self-aggrandizers in the process in a personal exchange.

Yeah. And I know in your training programs, and I've attended some of those, which have been great, your online course around influence is phenomenal, and I highly recommend that people check that out and get that. You often talk about this concept of small bigs, small bigs. So I would love for you to clarify for our listeners, What exactly are small bags? And maybe if you can give us an example or two that really effectively uses persuasion by changing mindsets.

Okay, so let's go to the question you asked about change, right? It turns out that people are more likely to accept a request for change at a time when change is in the air. That is, when change is part of the situation that they're in. So for example, if you have an idea to suggest to people for a change, you will be more successful if you do it at the beginning of the year because it's a time for change. That's the first month or so of the year, that's when people are readied for change because change is in the air. And here's what's even more useful. The research shows it's not the beginning of the year, but it's some other month. If you present your idea for change at the beginning of the month, you get more approval than if you do at the end of, because it's the beginning of something. So we can do that. Now, it turns out it's not just that any idea gets more accepted at the beginning. An idea to stay the course or continue to work with us or go ahead and make your commitments, be consistent with your existing commitments, those don't work. It's the ones that break people out of those existing commitments. So for example, suppose you're trying to convince a prospect who is doing business with a rival to come to your goods and services. Okay. And you're gonna make a presentation to them, a PowerPoint presentation, or you're gonna present a proposal. Let's say it's a PowerPoint presentation. On your first slide should be an image associated with change. What image? What works best? The first one, the one that's at the top when you ask people, how does this affect you in terms of change that gets the highest rating, is this thing that they do in movies where they slap the— what do they call it? A slapper. Okay, new scene, crack. That's the one that they most associate. That's not easy to put into your— but here's one, the second that's most associated with the idea of something new and a fresh start. A sunrise. Put a sunrise on the first page of your proposal or at the first slide of your PowerPoint presentation. A sunrise and something new. Like they did with the Norwegian Cruise Line. They put the idea of limited time first. Put a sunrise first. That's change, right? So that's what I would recommend. Yeah. Okay. So here's another one. When we make a presentation or have an ad, let's say, we often include testimonials to get the authority principle to work in our favor. You know, that a lot of recognized legitimate experts favor our idea or our products or service, and I was working with the Bose Acoustics Corporation with a program that they had, and what they had was testimonials buried in the text of their ad. We just moved them to the first thing they saw was a pair of testimonials that were very positive so that the mindset of authority was established before people read the first word of that message. Now all the power of authority was infused into everything in that message before it was experienced. So, and that increased sales by 16%. Just moving the testimonials to be first because authority was a strong feature of this organization. They had good testimonials and good expert opinions. So make that first, prime people to see that in the message, in the offer.

Yeah. Can you give us maybe one or two more examples that would work online?

Okay, that's a great question because we are moving more and more online. And you know, there was a study of 6,700 online commercial sites and they did A/B tests where they put in or took out one or another of 29 different features to see how much difference it would make to have it in versus out. And the features included such things as the economic— economically relevant features like free shipping or technology relevant features like a search function within the user could go anywhere within the site easily. They even had some that were related to sales, call to action line. Was there a call to action line in or out? Well, There were 29 of these, and I'm happy to say that the ones at the top that made the most difference were the principles of influence. Was there authority? Was there scarcity? Was there social proof? Was there commitment and consistency? Those were the top. But one of them was one that was interesting. The liking principle. You know, people want to say yes to those they like and who think like them. Right? So what did they do to generate the liking mindset? Those people who saw a welcoming statement on the landing page of the website became significantly more likely to convert from prospect to customer because they had been approved of. We all want to be liked, and we like those people who like us. And by simply saying, welcome to our site, we're so glad that you were here, that you are here, increased significantly conversions. Well, that's a small big that occurs first, persuasively, to honestly give people the evidence that you like them. I mean, there's nobody that we don't like who comes to our site. If somebody comes to our site, we like people who do that, who wanna come and join us. So we just have to tell them that. We just have to show them our liking in return for their visit. So that was one such thing. The other one is a study that was done at Columbia University on a furniture company, an online furniture company that was selling mostly sofas online. And the experimenters who were at Columbia University talked them into doing this study. For half of the people who went to their site during a particular period of time, they went to a landing page that had as its background fluffy clouds, soft fluffy clouds. The other half went to a landing page that had as its background small coins, pennies in the background, right? Cost-related, right? So you went from comfort-related to cost-related imagery. Those people who saw the fluffy clouds saw comfort as more important for them in purchasing a sofa and were more likely to prefer comfortable furniture on the site. Those who saw the pennies rated cost as more important to them in buying a sofa, and they preferred inexpensive furniture in their choices. Okay, so that's online. And what, again, you pre-swayed people to look for something inside your set of offers that aligns with that concept that you want them to have. If your strength is comfort, then there should be clouds on your— if cost is your, your strength, your best feature, then pennies should— because they'll look— now you've primed them to look for cost, for price as a differentiator. Yeah.

Wow. Brilliant. So I have a couple of follow-up questions. So for the first example with the welcome, does research show whether it matters whether the welcome is written in words, let's say on the website or on the landing page versus like a video, someone sharing?

That's a really good question. There isn't research on that, that particular question, but I'm convinced that the more personalized that welcome could be. It's like somebody comes to your home and you open the door and you graciously welcome them in person. That would be more successful. Here's a piece of evidence that suggests that you're right. There was a study done of people being asked to say yes to a particular request. The request was the same in all instances, but one group of them got the request by email, another group by phone, another group by video call, and a final group by in-person contact, right? The people who got the in-person personal request were 8 times more successful. I mean, the people who provided that in-person contact were 8 times more successful than those who got an email for the same request. Those who presented their request on the phone or on a video call were in between, but the video call was more successful than the phone, right? But the more personalized we can make our interactions with people. Email is great and technology is great for getting information out about us. There's the immediacy of it, the reach of it, the depth we can go with it, and so on. But to get a yes, as much as possible, personalize that exchange. Make it in person if possible, on a call or a video call.

And another quick follow-up question to that is, you know, we talked about the welcome at the beginning. What about at the end? Let's say it's a survey, they finished a survey, or let's say it's a course, they finished the course. If we were to say again something warm like, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Do you know anybody else who might be interested? Is there any research on that?

Not quite on welcome. But there's a study done in McDonald's where for one week, every family who came into certain locations— this was study done in the countries of Brazil and Colombia— every family that came in, the kids got a balloon. Each kid got a balloon. Half of the families got the balloon as they were leaving as a nice thank you. Thank you for being a customer. Here's a balloon for each of the kids. Thank you for— you know, we often do that after, as you say, we've done the business with people. The other half got the balloons as they entered, and the parents bought 25% more food if the balloons came first. It was a genuine welcome. It was a genuine expression of the extent to which we are grateful to you and approving of you coming to work with us, spend your dollars with us. And here's an interesting feature of that. If you look deep into the data, of that 25% increase in spend, there was a 20% increase in coffee purchases. The coffee wasn't for the kids. The parents were buying more coffee to say thank you for giving my child a balloon. And this has to do with that principle of unity that we've talked about. And if you're part of a group, a category, a family, right? If you give my child a gift, you've given me a gift, and I am grateful to you, and I will show that gratefulness. In the way I exchange with you.

So one last quick point before we complete here on persuasion. It's very much about, of course, prepping kind of the state of the audience, if you will, the person, people that you wish to influence. And the way that I see persuasion in addition to that is also our own state. So how can I be in the best state possible as I go in to persuade or influence others? How can I be the most coherent? The most grounded, trusting of myself and the product or service that I'm here to offer. I sense that that's a part of it too, that we're able to communicate more effectively when we are in that kind of state ourselves.

I would say rehearse before you go in, in your mind, the instances in which you were successful in customers such as this. Remind yourself of those successes. That gives you confidence and the sense, though, yeah, this is something I can do. I can be successful here. There's another one. There's a very interesting study I saw on how to get yourself to think more creatively. How do you do that? And it turns out You go to a big room with high ceilings because in a narrow, small room like the one I'm in right now, your thinking is more narrow. But if you go to a big room, your thinking is more expansive just because the cues have pre-focused you. On that concept of expansive thinking. So go to a place where there's expansiveness and it will make your thinking more creative and expansive. Yeah.

Wow. Can I imagine just the same, take your team, you know, if you're looking to get more?

Oh, that's such a good point. For example, if you've got a brainstorming session where, okay, maybe we've got a project that's working and it was working fine, and now it's hit some sort of a resistance point and we don't seem to get around it. We need to think about how to get out of these existing frames into thinking about this somewhere new. Take them into a room with a big expanse and high ceilings. They'll think more expansive. I mean, there's research on this. They'll think more creatively.

This is huge. Even for me personally, I'm like, okay, where is the room with big ceilings the next time I need to be creative? And does it also apply outside, outdoors?

Oh, that's exactly right. You find the same thing with going outdoors for the same reason. It's the big sky, it's the big environment that you're in that allows you not to have constraints, not to have walls built around your ideas.

Yeah, very cool. So persuasion also, in terms of influencing others, may also be where you meet with people. Let's say if you meet somewhere physically, you know, do you meet them in that kind of a space for the potential client to think more about me? Well, Bob, I am just so grateful to you again. There have been so many incredible, invaluable nuggets, these small bigs that can have a tremendous impact on our ability to have the influence that we need to have in order to create these positive changes in our world. And so thank you again for being here. How can people learn more about the Cialdini Institute and all the wonderful programs? I know there are instructors that can help share these messages with teams and organizations. Where can we go?

It's easy. Go to cialdini.com and it will take you to the Cialdini Institute where you'll be able to get a description of all the programs we have to offer.

Well, thank you again, Bob, for these wonderful books that you've given to our world and all of the research and effort that you and your teams have invested in these 40-some years for us to have the influence we need to create real change for the future of our planet. Thank you.

Thank you for this conversation. I enjoyed it, and I thought the questions you asked really got me to the core of the material.

Thank you, Bob. That's this week's episode of the Mindset Game podcast. Visit us at themindsetgame.com for more, and remember to play the mindset game consciously to master your mindset and transform your life.