Dr. Robert Cialdini on The 7 Principles of Influence

Welcome to Game Changers with Molly Fletcher, where we take you behind the scenes with peak performers to learn what makes them tick and discover how you can apply their lessons to your life. I'm your host, Molly Fletcher. What leads someone to say yes to a request. It might not be what you think. Dr. Robert Cialdini has spent his entire career researching the science of influence. His books Influence and Pre-Suasion have sold more than 5 million copies in 41 different languages, and his 7 principles of persuasion have become a cornerstone for most sales and marketing professionals. But the reality is we can all benefit by understanding the science of influence. In the new edition of Influence, Bob shares new research, new insights, and new examples to build on his groundbreaking research. In our conversation today, you'll learn how to become more persuasive by employing these 7 foundational principles. Discover simple tactics like why you should shake hands before a negotiation. The simple phrase you can use to trigger the rule of reciprocity. What question job candidates can ask at the start of an interview to increase their chances of success. Get your notepad out because this one, this one is full of practical advice and quick tips to help you build your influence no matter what your role. Let's listen and let's learn. Here's my conversation with Dr. Robert Cialdini. Well, Dr. Robert Cialdini, what a treat to have you on. Thank you so much. This is going to be fun.

I'm looking forward to it, Molly.

Absolutely. And you gave me permission to call you Bob, so I'm going to lean into that. Bob, how did you first get into the field of social science and what led you to study influence specifically?

You know, I think it has to do with the fact that all my life I've been a patsy. A pushover for the appeals of various kinds of sales operators or fundraisers who've come to my door. And I would find myself in unwanted possession of things I didn't really want, contributing to causes I hadn't really heard about. And I remember thinking to myself, wait a minute, there must be something here other than the merits of the offer. Got me to say yes to it. It must have been the psychology of the way those merits were presented to me. Isn't that interesting? Wouldn't that be worthy of study? Not just out of self-defense, but as a general area of inquiry that I could tell people about when I, when I found some answers there as to what those psychological elements were in a request or a proposal or a recommendation that spurred people to say yes.

And it's interesting because as you leaned into studying this, of course, your research, it wasn't just restricted to a lab setting, right? You actually did some undercover work, right, to learn it in sort of real-life scenarios. What did you learn in these settings that that surprised you, Bob?

So you're exactly right that I moved away from my laboratory, from my college campus, studying college sophomores for the most part as to what were the factors that got them to say yes to persuasive appeals, to the training programs of the people whose economic livelihood depended on the success of those strategies that they employed. Whose, whose business outcomes required that they use strategies, principles, techniques that worked. And I did so, as you suggest, undercover, disguised identity, disguised intent, to see what they were teaching their aspiring practitioners that really worked for them. And what I was looking for across the range of these marketing, advertising, sales, fundraising, recruitment, public relations, training programs, was the commonalities. What were the things that everybody was saying, this makes us money? And what I found that surprised me was how small the footprint was. I was able to identify just 6 6 major universal principles of influence that if included one or another of them in a message significantly increased the likelihood of assent to that message. Just 6. Now I've since added a 7th, but there were just 6 in that first round that I saw that everybody was using to increase their economic outcomes.

How do you define influence, and is it the same thing as persuasion?

I'm going to use them alternatively here as the same thing when I talk generally, but in the academic literature, persuasion has to do with attitude change. How do we change people's beliefs or attitudes or opinions or perceptions of the situation, right? Influence, social influence, is about changing their behavior. How do we actually mobilize them into action. And that's the one I thought I wanted to specialize in because it seems to me those other things, changing somebody's beliefs or attitudes or definitions of the situation, they occur in the service of changing their behavior. So why don't we go right there to behavior change? That's where the rubber meets the road anyway.

For any of our listeners who aren't familiar with your work or need a refresher, what are the 7 principles of influence? And then we're going to just dig into these a bit.

Yeah. So let's just briefly define them and then we can go and give some instances, examples of how to use them. But the first is reciprocation, the idea that people have been trained since childhood to give back to those who have first given to them. In other words, people say yes to those they owe. So we should move first with benefits, advantages, information, whatever we would like in return, give it first. You should never walk into a room where you're looking to be influential with the people there, having in mind the idea, who can help me here? In mind should be the idea, whom can I help here? They will want to help you next in whatever it is that you have to request. Okay, so that's the first. The next one is one no one would be surprised at, liking. We prefer to say yes to those we know and like, right? We did to our friends, to the people who we have a sense of rapport with. Right? So simple, everybody believes it. But here's the interesting thing. There are two very small things we can do to increase that rapport. The first is to identify genuine similarities that exist between us. The second is to give genuine compliments. Third is the principle that we call social proof. The idea that one way people decide to follow our recommendations is if we can give them evidence that a lot of people like them are following those recommendations or have done so in the past. That reduces their uncertainty about what they should do in the situation. Look, all these other people have beta tested this for me, right? I can now choose and reduce my uncertainty that this is a good choice. Next is authority. Another way to reduce our uncertainty in a situation is to see what those people who are legitimate authorities, experts on the topic, have suggested. So as a communicator, if we can honestly inform people that what we're proposing is aligned with what the experts think or say on this topic, we once again reduce uncertainty in the recipients of our message and allow them to get off the sidelines and into the game with us. The next is something we call commitment and consistency. People want to be consistent with what they have already said or done, especially in public, right? So if we can arrange for people to take a small step in our direction, they will now become significantly more likely to be willing to take a much larger step in order to be consistent with what they've already done. Next is scarcity, the idea that people want more of those things they can have less of. And the reason for that is FOMO, fear of missing out. Things that are scarce, rare, dwindling in availability give us the threat of losing them. And we hate the idea of losing opportunities or valuable resources that we think we have access to. And so we will make sure that if something is scarce, rare, or dwindling in availability, we seize it, we jump, we get off the fence and obtain it. And then the final is the idea of what I call unity. The sense of shared partnership or membership in a group that we feel defines us. So if I were to say to my fellow in-group members, you know, Molly is like us, that will get you a lot more opportunities to be a successful influencer. Within that group. But if I were to say, not Molly is like us, Molly is one of us, Molly is of us.

Oh, okay, sure.

Everything comes down in terms of barriers to influence.

And that's the new one in the new book that we're digging into. Bob, how did you come up with these principles?

Well, the way I came up with them in the first place was in those training programs, identifying the only thing that was taught to aspiring professionals in each of these programs across every single influence training exercise that I participated in. They all used these. That must tell me something about the human condition.

Sure.

Not just about how to sell automobiles versus how to get people to pay contribute to the Cancer Society. No, if everybody's using these, these must be the universals of persuasion.

In the updated version of Influence, you group them by category. I thought this was interesting, sort of by the desired goal. Can you explain that approach a bit?

Yes. I think this is a major insight that didn't appear in previous editions, and it's due to my colleague, Dr. Gregory Neidhart, who came up with this categorization scheme. He says, look, there are various goals that communicators have in moving people in their direction. The first is often just to build a relationship, just to get a social connection where people feel positively toward us, right? And the way you do that is with reciprocation. You give something first. Liking, right? You get them to feel greater rapport. Immunity, you show them that we are, we have commonality of identity on a lot of things, right? And those things not only build but foster existing relationships. They don't just begin relationships, they advance relationships to the extent that we can show people that those things exist. So the first step is Get people on our side, get them feeling close and positively toward us as the communicator. But after that, then you want to reduce their uncertainty that what we're offering to them is something that will be good for them to choose. And that means reducing their uncertainty that this is the time to move, you are the person to partner with in this approach, and the recipient's outcomes are likely to be positive ones. And social proof, what all my friends, what my peers are doing, right, and authority, what the experts are recommending, they both reduce uncertainty. Now the last step is to get people to move. To stop hesitating and dithering and sitting on the fence and actually take the step of clicking that button, putting down that down payment, choosing in our direction, whatever it is, right? That requires scarcity and commitment and consistency. If they've already done this, then it frees them to take the next step in that direction.

All right, let's go through these one by one. So number 1, reciprocation, right? This is the one we probably hear, you know, cited the most, right? What is, what is the rule of reciprocity and how does it influence our behaviors?

Well, the rule is that we are obligated to give back to others the form of behavior they have first given to us. If you invite me to a party, I should invite you to one of mine. If you remember my birthday with a gift, I should remember yours with a gift. And Molly, if you do me a favor, I owe you a favor. And I'll say very simply, in the context of obligation, people say yes to those they owe. Here's a little study that we report in the, in the new book that it's brand new research, not even published yet. It was done in McDonald's where for a period of time, every family that came into certain McDonald's locations received a balloon for each of their children. Half of them got the balloon as they were leaving. Half of them got the balloon as the kids were entering. Those families who got the balloon first brought 20% more food.

Wow, that's interesting.

So you have to go first. Give and people will give back, but way over the cost of a balloon, right?

Exactly, right, right. That was a nice return on that investment for McDonald's, right?

Yep. In fact, and then they showed that they were— there was also a 25% increase in coffee orders. None of the kids were offering— were buying coffee.

Interesting. Okay.

But the parents— I know as a parent and even grandparent, if you give my kids something, you've done a favor for me.

When do you think this rule is especially effective? You know, we have a lot of sales folks listening. Get me inside of that a little bit. Are there ways to do this when it can be most effective?

So for example, one thing I think we have to be sure of is very often we're asked to do something for a longtime client or a prospect or someone, and that person, after we've done the favor, we've gone out of our way, that person says, "Well, thank you, Molly. That was really great. That was above and beyond the call." And here's what we often say mistakenly, "Oh, don't worry about it, Bob. No big deal. Would have done it for anybody. It's just what I do." Mistake. You've just thrown the rule for reciprocity out the window. You did do something. So here's what I recommend. If this is somebody, a prospect you don't have an existing relationship with, Here's what I recommend you say. Listen, I know if the situation were ever reversed, you'd do the same for me.

Interesting. Interesting.

You put on the map, yes, that that favor was done, right? You don't dismiss it. You don't backhand it. You put it on the map. And believe me, people will give back. Now, if it is a relationship that you've had, a long-term customer, client, or supplier, And you've done something and they say, "Oh, turning around that invoice more quickly was so important for me. Thank you." You say, "It's what long-term partners do." And then don't forget the addendum, "for one another." It's what long-term partners do for one another. Once again, you've put it on the map as something to take into account in the future.

And number 2, liking. Right? Get me inside of this a bit, right? I mean, it's at some level fairly obvious, but get me inside of this a little bit and what drives it.

There are two things that cause us to like people. We like those who are like us.

Okay.

And we like those who do like us and say so. So the first of those is we point to similarities or commonalities that exist. Between us. And now we like people who are like us. And we didn't know that they were like us. So now before you ever have an opportunity to exchange, you know, in a commercial exchange with someone, look that person up on social media. They give us all kinds of information. It's not proprietary information. They want us to know what, you know, there's their LinkedIn profile, there's their Facebook. And if we hit on a genuine commonality, never We don't fabricate or counterfeit these things. When we hit on a genuine commonality, we just raise it to the surface, raise it to consciousness, and now people are aligned with us. The second is praise. Giving people honest compliments cause them to like us more, and they want to do business with us. And here's the best thing about those two things, Molly. If we find genuine similarities and we find genuinely praiseworthy features of a person, not only do they come to like us more when we mention them, we come to like them more when we find them. Because we're as human as they are. We like people who are similar to us. We like people who are commendable. And, and now you've got the best of all possible business worlds. Two people who like each other working together.

Does repeated contact or sort of increased exposure in any way, does that increase our likability or not?

It almost always does because familiarity leads to more positive feelings with somebody, about somebody, unless there's incessant conflict in those interactions, those earlier interactions, then of course you get the reverse.

Yep, yep. And number 3, social proof. What is social proof and how does it influence behaviors?

Social proof is evidence that a lot of other people around us, like us, are doing something or have been doing something. And that causes us to want to follow along because the wisdom of the crowd suggests, well, if everybody around me is raving about a new restaurant or a new film or a new piece of software, it's probably going to be good for me. Me too, I don't have to now get smart on that piece of software. I have, these people have already beta tested it for me. All right, so that's one way. And one thing we can do very often that fits with the evidence is simply to tell people what is our most popular model, what is our most popular feature or additional upgrade. Or payment plan even, because that tells people, okay, I can stop sitting on the fence and move ahead. Popularity tells— we all have most popular, right? We're fools not to raise that to the surface. There was a set of restaurants in Beijing, China, that if they did that, if they simply put a little asterisk next to their most popular items, Each one went up 13 to 20% in purchase for their popularity. They became more popular because of their popularity. We'd be fools not to simply mention it.

And you reference this, right? Just simply pointing out, right, fastest growing, largest selling, things like that can drive behavior change.

What I love about that is not only is it effective, It's ethical. We're just informing people into assent.

And number 4 is authority, right? What type of authority is most persuasive?

There's a particular combination. It's someone who is simultaneously expert and trustworthy. That is, somebody who knows a lot about the particular area at hand, and that might be you But it also might be a voice of an acknowledged expert on the topic that you can say, and such and such, you know, said the following, which is aligned with what you're saying. That way you get to borrow that expertise. But a lot of times it's you. And when it's you, one way to increase the authority impact that you have is to increase your trustworthiness by doing something against what we've all been taught to do, and that is upfront mention a weakness in your case. Let me give you a couple of examples. Avis: "We're number 2, but we try harder." That advertising campaign increased Avis's market share by 7 100% in the course of one year. Here's another one. L'Oréal. We're expensive, but you're worth it. 300% increase in market share in one year. So you're telling people, look, I'm straight with you. I'm going to tell you the weaknesses as well as the strengths. But by mentioning the weakness first, You tell them, oh, this person is being honest. This is a trustworthy source of information. Now you say, but, and you mentioned your strongest argument. They process you and believe your strongest argument more than they would have if you hadn't demonstrated your honesty.

Boy, that's interesting. So interesting. I think about the sales folks listening, the way that load, they can, you can load that in, use that immediately in your conversations.

We all have minor weaknesses that get overrun by our strengths. And what we do is to bury them at the end. And our strengths have bounced off our recipients because they're not convinced yet that we're trustworthy enough to trust, to believe those strengths.

Makes sense. Makes sense. And number 5 is scarcity, right? And this one, you know, we see a ton of, you know, in sales and marketing tactics, right? What are some examples of when this principle is most effective?

The principle is most effective when people are hanging back and not moving forward. You've got them to see the benefits of your product. You've got them to feel good about you, but they're just not willing yet are yet to move, when you say not just, and if you do move in our direction, this is what you will gain. If you say, and I would hate for you to lose these benefits if you fail to move in our direction in a timely way, that causes people to get off the fence. There was a big an advertising campaign by Bose Acoustics for their new Wave system, they called it, new radio. And their advertising campaign began, new features, new advantages, new elegance, and so on. It didn't sell the new product very well at all. If instead they changed the headline of the ad to, "Here what you've been missing." 45% greater sales.

Wow. That's incredible.

Yes. Now those same advantages were things to be lost instead of gained. And people are more mobilized into action by the idea of losing something than gaining the very same thing.

Why is that? I mean, from a human behavior perspective.

There's an evolutionary reason for it. Let's say you're surviving, right? If you gain something, some resource or some advantage that keeps you alive and you now you're doing better, right? If you lose it, you might be gone.

In just a minute, we'll get back to the show, but first, here's a special invitation to join my group coaching community, Game Changer Leadership Huddles. Every month we explore a different topic to help you grow personally and professionally. Topics range from how to have difficult conversations to energy management to negotiation tips. If you want to be part of a growing community that will challenge and support you on your journey, then sign up today at mollyfletcher.com/leadership —Huddles. Again, that's mollyfletcher.com/leadership-huddles. And for our podcast listeners, use the discount code Game Changer to get special pricing. I can't wait to see you in the huddles. All right, let's hit it. Number 6, commitment and consistency.

Cialdini: People want to be consistent with what they've already said or done, especially in our presence. So if we would ask people to take a small step in our direction, they agree to it, they do take that step, then they'll be more likely to continue to be consistent with it. My favorite example is a study done in a Chicago restaurant where the owner was having a problem with no-shows. He was getting about a 30% no-show rate. People would call, book a table, and then fail to appear. He listened to what his receptionist said when she took a reservation. She would say, "Please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation." You've probably heard that 1,000 times. He asked her to do this, add 2 words, "Will you?" Will you? Please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation. And then he instructed her to pause, which allowed people to make a commitment to coming. Sure, of course, glad to. No-shows went from 30% to 10% that day and never went back up. If any of your listeners who are managers are running a meeting and assigning tasks to members of their team so that by the time of the next meeting, when we come back, you can report on this task that we've given you. Don't let anybody out of that room without first saying, will you be able to complete this task? If the answer is no, that's good news for a manager. It tells you, oh, I have to give this person more time, or some more resources or maybe some assistance on this? But if the answer is yes, I will, you have significantly increased the likelihood that that person will come back properly prepared with that task finished.

You get that verbal buy-in in the moment. Right. You know, you use an example of Amazon's pay-to-quit program where they offer employees $5,000 a $5,000 incentive to quit. How is that actually playing out with these principles?

Because they know upwards of 95% of their employees will not choose to leave their job for that $5,000 bonus. Therefore, they make a commitment to their job and to Amazon. And we know from the research that people who are high on, on job commitment perform better as a consequence. So getting people to make the choice for Amazon, even though they're offered the $5,000 to move away, bolsters their commitment and loyalty to the company.

How can securing an initial commitment drive bigger behaviors, right? Can you give me an example of that?

So for example, there was a study, this was done in Israel, where people were— somebody went door to door in some apartment complexes, every other door, right? Some people were asked to sign a petition to support building homes for disabled individuals. The others were not asked to do so at all, right? No, not to sign any petition. Now, weeks later, somebody came to their doors asking for contributions to help build residences for disabled individuals. Those people who had signed the petition were significantly more— who were asked to sign the petition, 100% of them did. That's a good cause, right? And all you're doing is supporting it with your signature. That seems like a small thing, but now giving is consistent with signing that petition. And those people were much more likely to contribute because they had the opportunity to sign a petition, which all of them did. And now we're going to be consistent with it.

So interesting. All right. Number 7, the new one, unity. This, this is the new principle, right, that you just added to the updated version of Influence. Tell me a little bit about what prompted you to add the 7th principle.

I started seeing not only in the research literature, but all around me Evidence of tribalism, right? How we put ourselves into certain tribes. They can be political tribes or local based on, you know, nationality or the region that we live in or what some identifying feature of us, right? Oh, I'm a runner. I'm— so all other runners are now inside your boundaries of this we group, right? Well, what you find is when people are inside that group, those who can claim common membership with them in those groups get so much more influence over them. There's a lovely little study that was done on a college campus where the researchers had a young woman asking passersby, mostly students on the campus, for contributions to the United Way, and she had a canister there. If she added one sentence before she made the request, she more than doubled contributions. The sentence was, I'm a student here too. I'm one of you. And now all the barriers came down, and actually more than twice 2.5 times as many people gave. We say yes to those who are in our we groups. I just had this happen to me. I saw a newspaper article where it showed which big celebrities are fans of certain NFL teams, you know. And I grew up in Wisconsin. The Green Bay Packers were always my hometown team. And this newspaper article told me that Justin Timberlake and Lil Wayne, those two musical artists, were big, earnest Packer fans. Molly, I immediately appreciated their music more, and I wished them greater success than before. They were of me. They were one of us, and I was just more willing to give to them favors and circumstances that would lead to their better outcomes.

You know, Bob, we have a lot of sales and marketing folks who listen to this show, leaders too. What are, you know, 2 to 3 simple things, particularly for sales folks, that you would lift up and say that they could apply as it relates to these 7 principles to increase their conversions? Okay, I'm going to start at the very beginning.

Suppose you're—

I think this is going to be good.

Yeah, you're, you're, you're applying for a job in a company you want to be in and rise within. And there's an interview process where you are confronted with having to make your case in front of 2 or 3 evaluators. And you know, you have competitors for that job. And here's what we've always been taught to say. So thank you very much for inviting me. I want to answer all your questions, right? I'm going to suggest that you add one more statement. But I'm curious, I wonder if you could answer a question for me. What was it about my resume, about my background credentials, that got you to invite me here today? And you will now hear them make public commitments to your strengths. Interesting. And they will follow through on those public commitments because that's what commitment and consistency does. I have an acquaintance who said he's gotten 3 better jobs in a row by using that strategy. Now, let's say you're, you're now in the company and you've got a great idea an initiative that you want to move forward, but you need the buy-in of some of your colleagues before you advance it, right? So you want them to give you positive feedback about your idea, right, so that you can say, using the principle of social proof, I've tried this on several of my colleagues and they all like it. Right? You can honestly say, how do you get them to do that? When you ask for their feedback, don't ask for their opinion on your idea. When you ask for an opinion, you get a critic. Instead, ask for their advice on your idea and you get a partner.

I am a huge fan of asking for advice and I think the way you describe that, Bob, is really, really powerful. I've heard you talk about when you ask for an opinion, they take a step back as a sort of a critic. When you ask for advice, they take a step forward. Now they're beside you, they're helping you.

It's so cool. Okay, now let's say the idea has been accepted and it's working well except for one thing that's stymieing its success. There's one aspect of it and You bring your team together, try to brainstorm creative ways to get out of what you've not been successful doing to get this idea to really fly at full potential. What can you do to produce new, fresh insights that you haven't had before? It's to take the group to a room with high ceilings. Why? Because the context of openness leads to open thinking. There's research on this. You get more creative in a room with high ceilings. Wow, that's amazing.

That's really cool. It's such a small thing, but makes sense, right? When you say it out loud, I get it.

No, on the contrary, when you then decide what to do and you want to constrain people to now get moving, make choices, move linearly toward the solution, you don't want them all over the place. Now go to a room with more restricted walls and ceilings. And in that context, they're more willing to just move forward in a linear way. The other way, besides the, besides the, the place with a high ceiling, if there's a patio or something like that, a deck, go outside. You get the same effect— more creativity. The broader the environment is.

You know, obviously, and you're touching on this, right? Leadership is also, of course, about influence. Tell me how your 7 principles apply as leaders that are listening. How do they lift them up and apply them?

You know, you've just hit on something that's happened to us. We began using our training program to bring people— we got a 2-day influence training program and bring marketers, advertisers, salespeople into alignment with these principles so that they can reach outside of their organization and get influence out there with customers, prospects, you know, and so on, distributors. And now they've come back to us and said, you know, influence inside the organization is just as important to our bottom line. Getting everybody on the same page, getting everybody aligned with a future direction, right? So let's take an example, the, the principle of social proof, where as a manager, you want everybody on your team to be moving forward in the same direction on this new initiative. That you have developed, and because if it works, it will burnish your reputation inside the organization. But you've got a couple of old-timers who are hanging back on this, right? They've seen various kinds of new ideas and so on, and they've seen them come and go, and besides, they don't like getting out of their comfort zone and trying something new. So these two folks are hanging back. Here's what the managers typically do. They try again to influence those people, right? Yes, that can work, but only when you're surveilling them. When you're not surveilling them, they're likely to fail to move in the direction you want because they feel coerced into it, right? Here's what I would suggest instead. At a team meeting, instead of you making the case once again for your initiative, You ask two of the team members who have already gotten on board why they did and let their voices convince their colleagues. It's the principle of social proof, which says if the people around me, like me, are doing this, what we're calling instead of persuasion, peer suasion. If those people have moved in this direction. Oh, that reduces my uncertainty that it's a good thing for me too. Let's say this differently. The best influencers know when they are not the best influencers, and they hand the task off to the people who are. Interesting. Makes sense.

Self-awareness. You know, Bob, we do negotiation training, and I think so many of your principles apply because negotiation is essentially, right, influencing a behavior or a decision. I think though most people think of negotiation as a sort of a battle, right, between two sides with competing interests. And I think that's why at some level people get tripped up. What are some of the ways that we can think about negotiation differently using so many of these principles we've discussed?

Let's talk about a very simple one at the outset, and there was research that supports this. If 2 negotiators shake hands at the beginning of the negotiation, they produce better mutual outcomes for both parties because it signals a willingness to cooperate and collaborate. Now we've had COVID, right? We can't do that anymore, but that's going to be gone in a while. We'll be able to shake hands again. So not only should we shake hands at the beginning of a negotiation, After a lunch break, we should shake hands again. And then on the second day of negotiation, we should start off with another handshake. It signals something that brings cooperation, intent to cooperate, to top of mind, and it allows us to give grace to the other individual. One more thing I'm going to suggest, and it has to do with the negotiation that a lot of your guests probably have not been in charge of, but may have been exposed to. One of my good friends is a divorce attorney who also does mediation between divorcing parties, and she brings them to her offices and puts them in separate rooms because If they're in the same room, you get these shouting matches and everything just explodes and they stomp out. So separate rooms, and then she shuttles between the rooms communicating various offers from the, from the two sides. They often have their accountants and attorneys in the room with them and so on. So there are two teams, and she says that works very well until very often you get a last stumbling block, something they just won't agree on. And no matter what she does, she can't get them to move. And then often that thing torpedoes the entire mediation process and they have to go off to court, which is much more expensive and time-consuming. All right, so I asked her, so what do you say to people when you come to a group with the final offer of the other party? She said, well, I tell them, if you'll agree to this, we'll have a deal. And she says, a regrettable percentage of the time it doesn't work. So I said, try this, Sandy. Say, we have a deal. All you have to do is agree to this. Why? Because if you say, We have a deal. If you say no, you're losing it. You've got loss aversion working for you now as a communicator, right? So I saw her at a party a few months later. She came up to me, big smile. Bob, what you suggested works every time. I said, Sandy, come on. This isn't magic. This is behavioral science. Nothing works every time on every She put her hand on my arm. She said, every time. Now, I still don't believe that it works every time, but what it tells me is that something as small as changing the sequence of when you say we have a deal from if you do this, we will have a deal and you gain, you will be able to obtain it. Versus we have a deal. If you don't say yes, you lose it. Makes that much of a difference.

So interesting. God, it's amazing. Bob, if you could leave our listeners with one takeaway on the topic of influence, what would it be?

Here's what I'm going to suggest. First of all, you know, you have to know these principles and be able to harness them. That's certainly the biggest one. But I'm going to suggest something in addition to that. And that is when you go into a situation where you're interacting with people anew, you don't know these folks, you haven't interacted with them, and so on. Think the best of them there, because that allows you to be generous with them. I love that. And that generosity will do two things that we've talked about. First of all, people will like you more for it, right? And secondly, they'll reciprocate the generosity. I mean, you have a wealth of knowledge.

It's incredible. How can people find out more about you?

Well, of course, we have a website. It's influenceatwork.com. Where they can get more information about the influence process in general and also more information about my training and speaking and writing activities.

So we end with rapid fire. So I'm going to fire off a couple of quick questions and you just hit me up with what comes up. You ready? Good. All right.

Morning person or night owl? Absolutely morning person, and it's becoming more the case the older I get.

Introvert or extrovert?

Extrovert in professional venues, like on stage or in trainings and so on. Introvert at parties. Interesting.

All right, what's a book you most often recommend to leaders?

It would be Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow.

Mm-hmm, that's a great one. What's your most memorable career moment so far?

When I decided to be brave enough to do the research for my book by entering the training programs of existing compliance professionals, right, rather than staying in my laboratory. It opened an entirely new and I think more valuable world for me in understanding how the influence process works.

What's the best advice you've ever received?

It has to do with something that when I was a teenager, I had a possible opportunity to sign a contract to play minor league baseball. And there was a problem, however. I couldn't hit a slider. I couldn't hit a good slider. I knew it. And the scout who was offering me a contract knew it too. And he said to me, "Are you any good at school, kid?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Good enough to get into college?" "Yes." "Good enough to finish college?" "Yes." "Do you like college? Do you like schoolwork?" "Yes." "Go to school, kid." Wow.

So listen, the show's called Game Changers with Molly Fletcher. So one last question.

What game changer inspires you and why? I'm going to reach back into my childhood, not my father. There was a book written by a guy named Vance Packard called Hidden Persuaders. I read that book at 12 years old and it changed the game for me because it described how advertisers can use psychology to get people to move in their direction without changing the merits of what they were offering one single bit, but analyzing advertising strategies that harnessed psychology. It changed everything.

Wow, that's amazing at 12. Yeah, gosh, you started this journey, journey young. That's awesome.

I knew right away how excited this made me feel about understanding human behavior and then channeling it, again, in ethical ways for everybody's better outcomes.

Bob, this conversation is going to help a lot of people. Thank you for the work that you do. It's fantastic.

Well, thanks. So long for now.

There's a reason why his nickname is the Godfather of Influence. What a fascinating look at the science of persuasion. I want to leave you with a few things I took away from this conversation. Number 1, asking for advice is good advice. I'm a big believer in this one, so it was cool to understand the science behind it. When you ask for someone's opinion, they put themselves in the mindset of critic. But when you ask for advice, it triggers a togetherness mindset that drives connection. Number 2, remember this phrase: I know if the situation were ever reversed, you would do the same for me. It's a simple way to trigger the rule of reciprocity after you've provided something of value. Number 3, When it comes to authority, credibility and trustworthiness both matter. Inside of a conversation, you might lead with a weakness, which at some level builds trust, and then lean into where you're an expert. You've built trust offering up a weakness, and then you've strengthened your position with authority. Thanks as always for listening to Game Changers with Molly Fletcher. If you like the show, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts. There you can listen to previous episodes and leave us a review, which helps other people find out about the show. This episode was edited and sound designed by the team at Sound On Studios. You can find out more about their work at soundonsoundoff.com. Check it out. For more about me, visit mollyfletcher.com. Until next time, stay curious and be bold.