Internet consultant Ryan Dohrn talks about Facebook contests with Second Street Media

Hey, thanks everybody for joining us today. This is Ryan Dohrn from BrainSwell Media, and I appreciate you very much taking a couple seconds out of your day to spend a little time. And we like to call these Lunch and Learns. So hopefully, maybe you've got a sandwich or a cup of coffee, and we're going to take just 20 minutes or so to talk to you about another revenue opportunity that I've come across. I'd like to introduce you today to Matt and Stephanie from Second Street Media.

Hi.

And some of you are familiar with them. Matt from meeting him and Stephanie also from meeting them at the Niche Magazine conferences. I've developed such a close relationship with these folks. Not only are they just really great quality individuals, but the company that Matt co-founded has just continued to grow and is really serving the revenue needs of magazine publishers and media companies across the country. Today we are going to talk about an exciting topic which is revenue related to Facebook. So thank you Thank you, Matt, and thanks, Stephanie, for being here today. So let's start this conversation talking about the agency model and in terms of revenue that these magazine publishers can make from Facebook.

Thanks so much, Ryan. We're really excited to be here. And quickly, just about us, we are a software company that helps our media partners grow their online database grow their audience and generate new revenue. And we're going to be mainly talking about results that have come from a product called YouPickEm.

Okay.

And we have— oh, go ahead.

Go ahead. No, that's great. Thanks. That's great.

Okay. We have executed lots of contests on our network, and we think about contests all day long. So that's where we have learned all of this great information about why our partners are doing contests and how they're monetizing them. So just up front, why our partners do contests is they do them to build audience, page views, and awareness, generate sponsorship and ad revenues. There is a lot they can do through bundling sponsors and packages that include contests and maybe print ads as well. They also use this, this is probably really key for magazines, to grow their email database. And then something that we will be talking about today is powering their social and mobile strategy. And what we thought we could do is first off, I'm going to kick it over to Matt Cohen to talk about what is the agency model. And then we will talk about how Facebook, which is something that everyone is buzzing about, fits into this model, and how advertiser Facebook contests work in terms of some case studies. And then finally, we'll explore some best practices.

So, Matt? Good, sounds good.

Yeah, absolutely. So thanks, Stephanie, and thanks, Ryan. Terrific to be with everybody today. You know, I think that what we want to talk about today is the agency model, and particularly as it relates to contests. And more and more, we're finding that media companies are considering being more of— serving more of the role of an agency. Not just running media, but getting involved more with some of the other services that their clients are looking for. As we'll talk about, some media companies are flat-out forming spinouts that are agencies to support their clients. But others are just considering a whole host of different opportunities, and whether it be selling media or buying media or delivering services that are creative or SEO, etc. And so, you know, when we talk about the agency model, contests are a part of that. And what we'll talk about is that it's not just about focusing on running a contest on your own site, but it may be about serving the needs of your advertisers. And I think what media companies are doing overall is they're looking to close the gap between what they currently sell which is advertising and what their advertisers want, which are measurable results from a variety of new digital platforms or ones that are not digital as well. And it's a trend overall we're seeing in the world of media. So, you know, we're seeing a lot of partners go out and create these agencies— Cox, Gannett, Gatehouse. A number of folks in the broadcast and magazine world are really literally in some cases building their own agencies as a whole. And as they've done this, what we've heard from our partners who've created their own agencies is they've had a lot of success in driving revenue. But if they went back and did one thing differently is that they would have focused even greater on social opportunities. They're hearing over and over again from their clients who are ultimately their advertisers that they are looking for social solutions. They are looking to build their Facebook presence. They are looking to build the number of likes, their database of likes on their sites. And so a lot of folks who are in this agency model wish they'd move faster in the area of social as a whole. So Facebook contests as an agency model provides a really, really exciting opportunity. And if you have an in-house agency as a media company, then Facebook contesting should be a no-brainer. It's really the kind of leading— it's kind of like the tip of the spear, Ryan, in terms of getting in and offering a solution to an advertiser that you can then go build a bundle, a whole variety of other services around. So if you're doing an agency, you absolutely have got to be in the Facebook contesting world.

So Matt, just to be clear on that, then on the last slide is that these magazine companies rather than just having sales reps that are selling advertising, what they are actually doing is they are creating an ad agency that actually sells advertising services which might be graphic design. It might be help with direct mail. It might be help with email campaigns. And in this circumstance that we are talking about is If one of their advertisers wanted to run a Facebook contest, then they would actually— the magazine publisher would actually sell that ability to do that for the customer as a service.

That's exactly right. And Ryan, even a slightly different spin on that is if you are running an agency and you sit down and talk about what are their— with an advertiser and talk about what are their objectives. If one of their objectives is to grow their social presence, there's probably a variety of things that you can do through your agency or through your magazine or media company to help support them. But one of the things that I would put at the front and center of that proposal would be a contest. So they may not even know that they want to run a contest, but what you're able to do is then propose it and then have the ability and the reputation and the skills to go out and execute it for them.

That's really great stuff because one of the things we talk about a lot with these publishers, Matt and Stephanie, is that advertisers are not looking to buy another print ad right now. They're just not. Now, I think we all agree that print is still quite powerful and is a great medium to advertise. But I often make the joke that most advertisers don't get up in the morning, put their feet on the floor, put their feet in their slippers and say, gosh, I sure hope Ryan or Matt or Stephanie calls me today because I'm looking to buy another ad, another print ad. So the cool thing about this and talking about this is that it gives us a new conversation point, something else new, fresh, exciting, and different to talk with these advertisers about.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Ryan. And as you get out there, and you may have somebody who says flat out they don't want to buy a print ad, or they want to buy banners. But when you start talking about, well, what do you want to accomplish? And they say, look, I'd really love to grow my social presence. I'd love more Facebook likes. And you say, okay, well, have you thought about a contest? And they may not have. And as you begin to lay out a vision for a contest, ultimately the conversation is going to turn back to, usually by them, to say, well, okay, I'm so excited about this contest. How am I going to promote it?

Yeah.

And then you're able to bring the conversation back to, well, you know, we've got this thing called print advertising. We have this thing called email marketing. We have these things called banners. We have a social presence of our own that we can use to promote your contest. Let's put together a package that includes running the contest and creating the contest for you, but also putting a very powerful promotional package around it. And now you've suddenly carved out a much more compelling and much more lucrative opportunity with your advertiser than when you're just selling those things Not as a solution but as a transactional kind of pitch overall.

That's great. Yeah, that's great stuff. Cool.

And what I love about this, Ryan, is that if you have an agency, it's a complete no-brainer. But if you don't have an agency, you don't really have to have an agency to go out and speak to your advertisers this way. Facebook contests allow you to offer kind of a limited agency service that you can provide. It's inexpensive and easy to execute without having to go out and build an entire agency on your own. So it kind of allows you to get the benefits of an agency model and maybe perhaps the most compelling service that you can offer, that kind of tip of the spear as I said before, without having to go out and build the resources to support you know, those variety of services I laid out before. So I think it's really interesting in that regard.

Yeah.

So, you know, just to quickly review, so what's the difference between a sponsored contest which certainly, you know, magazines and media companies have been running for years in an agency model? You know, the sponsored contest really begins with the media property. So here we've got a golf contest sponsored by a newspaper in Bloomington, Indiana. And it's a sponsored golf contest. It has a variety of advertisers who are sponsoring the contest that in this case the newspaper is running. On the right-hand side, you'll see more of an agency model. So this is a contest for Bloomington Paint that was created and run by the Herald-Times, but the focal point of the contest actually wasn't the newspaper site. It was the Facebook page of Bloomington Paint. So the traffic was really driven to Bloomington Paint. The like gating was taking place on Bloomington Paint. As Stephanie will talk about, you can also simultaneously run this on your magazine or media company's Facebook page and create even a dual like gating situation. But here the real— the focus is on the advertiser as opposed to being about you. And that's a very attractive opportunity to offer to any advertiser.

Okay.

Great, Matt. Well, thank you so much. And I wanted to go over the components of what an agency model contest might look like for your advertisers. So as Matt said, when you run an agency model contest, the objectives really are all about the client. Again, this is a contest that runs on your advertiser's Facebook page. And it might run on your media page as well, and it might include them paying you for extra promotion via your email list, your print publication, and your Facebook fan page. But the goals are to reach the— for the advertiser to reach new people. So you are going to make it really turnkey for them. And you include design services because you are a media company and you have those resources that they don't have to design this contest and run it on their fan page. And we always want to suggest that the prize corresponds with the advertiser's brand. And one of the things we do encourage is that in the submission form or registration page that you include an opt-in allowing the advertiser to capture people's email addresses who are interested in getting news from them. And just some reasons why advertiser Facebook contests, many of your advertisers are really looking to build social media audiences, but they don't know how. We do know that contests work. According to eMarketer, 57% of fans like a business based on an offer, and 38% because of a sweepstakes. But again, the advertisers really don't have the time, know-how, or design skills, nor do they have the promotion ability to make their contest successful. So you as a magazine are the expert in contests and promotions, and you have this great audience. And with Facebook, these contests can become quite viral. And it's an opportunity for you to build more revenue and develop a deeper relationship with that media company than if they just bought a couple of print ads with you or a couple of banner ads with you.

And this is really good. Stephanie's really good point, and Matt too, that a lot of the advertisers that these publishers are working with know they need to do something on Facebook, but they've had their uncle's kid's sister's nephew or whatever, or their kid set up their Facebook page. I want to be real specific with people. This is— a lot of folks still are running, even advertisers are using their personal Facebook page. And you guys, we need everybody that's on the call today to understand that what used to be called a fan page, and I guess you could still call it that, but all these things need to be set up on a business page on Facebook. Am I accurate, guys, in stating that? Correct?

Absolutely.

That is exactly right.

Okay, and we just want to make sure that everybody on the call today understands that if you are currently running things and trying to do these types of media opportunities on your personal fan page, some of you still are doing that. Not only is that against the terms of service with Facebook which could cause you problems, it does not allow you the opportunities like we are talking about today. So folks on the call, don't forget You have a real opportunity and a new conversation piece to go to your advertisers now and say, hey, you're looking for ways to grow traffic or likes on your Facebook page? We can help you do that. So this is really, really good stuff, guys. I just wanted to pause for a second and make sure that everybody understood they need to have their Facebook set up correctly.

Yeah, and Ryan, if I may, you make an excellent point and I'd just add only one thing to it. Which is that you also have to be really careful how you run a contest. Because if you run a contest the wrong way, you're violating Facebook's policies and you could have your site shut down. So you can't just simply run a contest and say, hey, put a comment or like this page and you'll be entered into a contest. It really requires an independent contest app to run a contest on your fan page. Yeah, really good point. And we've unfortunately seen some people go off and do that, you know, on the cheap and you can really get yourself in a lot of trouble with Facebook and lose out on an opportunity with Facebook if you don't do it the right way.

Yeah, really good point. Thanks for bringing that up because a lot of folks— and we'll maybe guys have another webinar on this— a lot of folks with the new timeline format are putting calls to action up in your profile picture at the header of your Facebook pages and you can't do that. There are a lot of people that are violating Facebook's terms of service. And the only reason you haven't been busted to this point is there are just several thousand Facebook employees, but there are millions of users. So you do need to comply. And guys, remember something. You really need to comply because if you do get blacklisted, so to speak, or banned from Facebook, all the efforts you've put into getting your fans together is going to be for naught, and they are not going to turn you back on. So it's really important that you comply. And that's one of the reasons I really like the process that you guys have set up here and that you guys are going to explain. It makes it so easy for publishers to administrate these contests.

Absolutely. Well, we want to go ahead and give you guys some good case studies so that you can see what other media companies are doing to monetize this opportunity. So let's jump into some of those. So the first case study is ABC 15 in Phoenix, Arizona. And their goal was to generate revenue and audience. So they decided to go out and sell Facebook as a campaign. And this was their offer, and their strategy was to put together these campaigns that have a full promotional package behind them. So what you are looking at is Fiat Car Dealership of Scottsdale is the client of ABC 15. ABC 15 sold them this Facebook contest on their Facebook fan page, and it included Facebook promotion from the ABC 15 fan page as well as on-air promotion, online ads, and they were requiring within the contest app that the user had liked the page before they could then go and enter the contest via the legal contest app. And they are selling these contests for 5 figures in revenue.

Wow.

Yeah, I know, right? They have 20 to 30 of these planned for the year, so they are looking at about $250,000 in new revenue.

Wow.

And you can see some of those results there. The next example I want to share with you is the Quad Cities Times in Illinois. Davenport, Iowa. And they had a goal of offering a marketing solution to help their advertisers grow their database. So this is really all about approaching your advertiser and finding out what their needs are with a consultative approach to your sales. And I know that is something that Ryan is really big on in his training as well, is consulting. And what they do is they are giving the advertiser additional promotion and running run-of-site ads to promote the Facebook contest. And just to give you some of the results here, the promotion package included an e-blast email package which they were able to grow their email list by running other contests, not on their Facebook fan page for their clients, but running just contests. They included a homepage ad, a run-of-site ad, and then the Facebook contest ran on the advertiser's page for 2 weeks. And the results were they are selling these for about $5,000 to $15,000, depending on the amount of promotion the package includes. And they've got 7, they've had 7 live advertiser contests in May. And they are also simultaneously building their email list and fan count for their advertisers. Next up is the Herald-Times in Bloomington, Indiana. And their goal was to increase spending by giving advertisers social media tools such as Facebook contests. So the promotions package included they would create a contest for them. They would blast it out to their email list which they built through contests. They would post 2 posts a day on the Herald Times Facebook account. And so one thing of note is like many of your magazine Facebook accounts, editorial has more control over what the content is on the Facebook account. But when they sold these promotional packages, if the package hit a certain amount of revenue, then they would guarantee 2 posts on the Facebook account of the newspaper. And they would also feature ads on the Herald-Times website. And you can see circled down here is one of the ads that ran on the website promoting the contest for their clients. And the results is they sold 6 packages in 8 weeks. And for the clients, they were able to get a 208% increase in likes for their advertisers. And one of the things they did that we think is a great best practice is everybody was a winner in these contests. So it was easy for them to say all users get $2 off their next ticket for this advertiser for entering the contest. So we know people like to win, but people also like great promotions and offers like this. And because everybody did win at least something, it increased the amount of people that entered the contest. Next up is northofboston.com, and they are currently running a contest called Fenway Memories, which is promoting the 100th anniversary of Fenway Park where the Red Sox, which happens to be Matt Cohen's favorite team, play. And this contest is really neat because it's got a single sponsor, and it's called Commonwealth Motors, which is a car dealership. And the contest is running on both the newspaper fan pages, the newspaper's website, and the Commonwealth Motors Facebook fan page. And they sold this for $20,000. So I'll pause and let you absorb that number.

Yeah.

And then they are also going to do a post-contest magazine featuring 100 of the top photos of the 100 Years of Memories photos from the contest. And so then they are going to sell into that product as well. So this is a contest that has sales on both the front end and the back end of the contest. And then we've got KD&D in Sacramento, and they did a contest for Jackson Rancheria Casino. And the casino wanted to increase their social media engagement with consumers, and the keyword there is engagement. We know that contests are very engaging experiences. So they ran an integrated marketing campaign that included on-air and online ads directing people to their Facebook fan page to like it and then enter the contest. And so in just 2 weeks they saw 30% growth in likes, as well as 450 email database opt-ins, which many businesses find to be extremely valuable, and hopefully you do too. I want to move into best practices and kind of share with us what we— share with you what we've learned from our partners as they are doing these contests. So when you are going out looking for prospects, who would be a good fit for these types of contests? The main thing I want to say is advertisers with a good reputation and that currently have a social media presence. And that is really important because it is going to help you have more success with your contest. And then for our media partners, we've seen restaurants, retail, and hotel travel as good categories. But for your magazines, you might have certain niches that really fit a good Facebook contest. So don't limit it to that. And then some of the things that our partners are including in their sales package, we've mentioned this, but the Facebook contest itself, like gating for the advertiser. And the word like gating It simply means that you are requiring a like for your ad before somebody enters the contest.

Okay.

And then also you might include online promotions for your site, print promotions, of course leveraging that great print publication that you have, social media mentions in your Facebook and your Twitter account, and e-blast promotions to your whole database. And of course, And opt-in that we mentioned earlier for your advertiser.

Did you guys find that in working with these companies, either Matt or Stephanie, in terms of them training their salespeople to sell this, did anybody report back? Was it hard to get the salespeople excited about it or trained? Or what was kind of the feedback you heard from the different sales teams?

I think that once Once a salesperson gets out there and pitches a couple of these and sees the way an advertiser reacts to them, it's not hard to get them enthusiastic about it and getting them wanting to learn more about how to execute them.

Now do they maybe take— go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead.

No, at the end of the day, I think too often, as you suggested earlier, Ryan, we're out there leading with with print advertising. And what's so fun about these is this is in many ways exactly what an advertiser wants to do. And so you go in with that tip of the spear first, which gets the advertiser excited. It's that bright shiny object that gets them excited about doing a program with you. And then once you are able to sell them on that, you're then able to layer in all the other things that we all love to offer and have been offering for so long. And once an advertiser sees— once a sales rep sees how that works, They're hooked. We're finding, as Stephanie mentioned, some of these properties that are out there, they're selling these things left and right because it works in terms of driving revenue. Advertisers see the need for it, and the ability to bundle it allows you to maximize the spend. So it does take some work, and, you know, that's something that we help our partners on, to train your reps and get them focused on the right packages and the right way to to frame the discussion. But it's fairly simple and straightforward, and once you get used to it, it's a lot of fun.

If you wouldn't mind telling me a little bit more about— because I think the publishers will be interested— when you say you'll help them in terms of training the reps, what does that mean? What's involved, and what can they kind of expect from your team? Because I know that I'd be happy to help them as well as customers of mine, but what do you do when you mean that you help the sales team? What does that mean?

Yeah, so here's what we generally don't do. We don't generally come into an office and do onsite training or anything along those lines.

Sure.

But we have a host of different thought leadership materials to make available to people. We are readily, you know, often doing webinars like this one where we'll expose people to opportunities and and showcase how to do things. We have different contests that we have prepackaged and have even sales kits to go along with them. And so we do a lot of things like that. We are launching something new called SecondStreetLabs.com that is going to be kind of a site. It is not about us. It is about online promotions and media companies. And it is just filled with resources to give you advice and counsel on how to be most successful in this space. At the end of the day though, oftentimes our partners rely on either internal resources or Ryan, folks like yourself to come in and do more hands-on training. And that's really where we benefit from relationships like we have with Ryan in terms of aligning ourselves with people who really know how to go out and work with your team to monetize these directly.

I think it's good for everybody on the call for us to mention that because a lot of times publishers and sales managers, you folks that are listening today, you don't absorb or interact or launch these new ideas for fear that your sales reps won't be able to sell it. So the interesting piece of that, or the important piece that I want to get across is this: don't not do an idea because you're afraid your sales team won't be able to sell it based on lack of training. Whether it's through myself or through the resources that Matt and Stephanie have available, we'll get your team trained up so that you can get out with the right one-sheets and make this a huge success. So good stuff guys. Okay, let's keep rolling forward.

Great. Well, just a few other thoughts on how you should promote your client's contest on Facebook. Ryan mentioned Facebook Timeline a few minutes ago. So there are some features within Facebook Timeline that you can use such as pinned posts. And when you create a post on your page, We want to make sure that it is engaging. We don't want it to just say, enter the contest. You really want to ask a question or engage your audience so that it doesn't just seem like an advertisement. And then you also want to move your contest tab that has your contest to the top of your advertiser fan page. And you want to customize your tab image. You also want to leverage that email database that you have. We know that as a magazine that you have a very valuable email database. So make sure you are promoting your contests for your advertisers in that. And then let's talk about the money. What should you charge? First off, consider the value of the promotional package that you are offering. Too many times I see people giving away too much for free, and it just really bothers me because you have so much audience and value to your advertisers. Don't give it away. You need to consider the value of your email list. Remember, this is not a performance buy. This is a base cost on a promotional buy. So what we've seen are kind of 3 different tiers of where people are pricing this, the smallest tier being up to $5,000, a mid-tier being $15,000, and then the larger tier if you have a really large audience, a large market, or a large niche, that would be about $20,000. And then one thing that is important to know, we are going to talk about what lessons we've learned, is we've learned that first it is important for you to build your fan base and your email list before you can go out and do this. So we saw Popular Woodworking Magazine, they are running a Facebook sweep that is currently going on as we are doing this presentation, and up to 11,000 new emails for the magazine and counting. Next, when Popular Woodworking goes out to sell, they can now promote that they can promote their advertisers' contests through these 11,000 email addresses that they have. That's pretty powerful. And then you want to ask your advertisers, what is the value of Facebook like to you? You need them to really understand what that value is. And if you can understand that for them, then it's going to be a much easier sale. And you want to point out that by using Facebook they also get a social database they can remarket to later. You definitely want to include adding those opt-ins in the contest for your advertiser. That is where the reader is saying, yes, sign me up to learn more from this advertiser in the future. You definitely want to keep your sign-up and your whole contest very simple. Don't make it complicated. You may want to use coupons or mention this for a future discount in all your promotions of the contest. And then consider a multi-contest package as a solution for an advertiser. So after you've asked those questions about what their goals are, the solution might not just be a single one-off, but it might be a series of contests that run quarterly. And then you want to structure and price this as an integrated package. And don't forget about the print component, because that's really valuable.

Mm-hmm.

So, and that really concludes our formal part of the presentation, Ryan.

All right, well tell me guys, in terms of Second Street's administrative backend to make this happen, what does it kind of, if you will, what does it kind of look like and how easy is it to use?

Ryan, it's a real simple interface designed for media companies. We work with media companies of all different shapes and sizes. And so we try to keep it very simple, yet it's also really flexible. So based on your needs and your advertisers' needs, it's there to solve problems for you. So it can be something as simple as a sweepstakes, or it could be a photo contest, or a sports contest, etc. But it's all designed to be really turnkey, not require too much on your part.

So from a publisher's perspective, let's just— just to kind of make up a generic example, let's just say that they're a city and regional magazine and they're working with a local bakery. In terms of the imagery and things and the layout of the contest, is that all something fairly simple for— if they have just kind of a graphics person that can design some of the imagery from a magazine's production perspective, is it all pretty like sort of kind of plug and play, if you will, is kind of fill in the blanks on the backend?

Yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, I think for too long media companies have been trying to build these things on their own. Where we give a simple tool that allows you to go in and with all of our experience fill out some forms, add some imagery if you like, and generate a contest that's kind of a contest that you can count on. It's an enterprise-level contest that has fraud protection and is designed to be streamlined for all the needs of your readers. But by the same token, really, really easy for you to create. The really nice thing about Facebook contests as a whole is generally they have far less imagery, so it makes them even easier to create. It may be just kind of a cover photo to kind of introduce people to it, and those are certainly images that your designers are very comfortable designing. But because it integrates right into Facebook, it makes it even that much simpler to get these things up and going very quickly.

Now is there— so the tool can be used then for the publisher themselves to run contests as well as their customers to run contests. Is there a limit to the number that they can run or is this unlimited or how does that work?

When you work with us, it's an unlimited number of contests generally you can do. So it's a really huge opportunity. And Ryan, we suggest people think about this in 2 different ways. And I think you just hinted at both. One is we have a program we call Planet 365 where we provide a template and some training to help our partners plan out a contest calendar. So these are the kinds of opportunities that they know in advance, maybe it's based on a special section or event that the magazine does or a different specific time of year, a holiday or other things along those lines that they're going to create these sponsored contests that they're going to have their team sell across. And you can create a budget for those and build those sponsorship packages well in advance and get out into market as you talk to your advertisers about solutions. That makes sense. So that's a real great revenue opportunity. Then the second piece is really what we've been talking about today, which is how do you develop a plan for every time your sales folks are out talking to advertisers, they're leading or they have a contest as appropriate as part of the package they are putting in front of people. So these are more opportunistic based on the advertiser itself as opposed to a set calendar that goes across the year. Both of them are unlimited opportunities and both of them work great.

Well, you know, in terms of the publishers moving forward on this, first of all, I think that it makes a ton of sense to be able to work with a company that all of you on this call today have heard Matt and I speak together about contests and have met Matt and Stephanie at these conferences that we attend. So I think it's important to link up, if you will, or have a synergistic relationship with companies like all of ours that trust and believe in each other. The second piece is that, guys, we have to look for new revenue opportunities to keep our advertisers engaged. This is an important point. If you don't, guys, as magazine publishers figure this out, Your competitors are going to figure it out. So it's very important for you to get engaged, figure these things out so that when your competition goes to your customers and says, hey, how about Facebook contests? That your advertiser will say, hey, we're already working with such-and-such magazine on a contest. It's one of those, it's not a matter of if it's going to happen, it's a matter of when it's going to happen. So you guys that are on this call, today really need to be, using Matt's example, the tip of the spear, be leaders in this space. And here is a company that I trust and I've worked with. Guys, it's going to make it really, really simple for you. Matt, Stephanie, the folks that are on the call that want to get more information from you guys, do you want them to contact Stephanie, you, or what's the next step for some of these folks?

Stephanie really is our guru for magazines, something she's really passionate about. about. And so Stephanie would be a great place to begin. She can be always reached at stephanie@secondstreet.com, all spelled out. Or frankly, give her a call direct if you want to, 314-880-4903. 314-880-4903. But stephanie@secondstreet.com is really your— she likes to call herself the contest queen.

There you go.

She's really passionate. She's really passionate about this, and I think you'll enjoy working with her to explore the opportunities for your magazine. This is what we— as Stephanie said earlier, this is what we— it's a lot of fun. We're lucky. It's amazing what people like Popular Woodworking that Stephanie just showcased, what people have been able to do and the results it's driven. It's very satisfying for us to be able to help out our partners to the degree that we can. So I'll turn it over to Stephanie.

That's great.

Anything we can do to help and support, we'd encourage. And check out secondstreetlab.com. It's going to be a great resource for any of you whether you work with us or not. And we'd encourage you to go ahead and share it. You might even find some Orion stuff up there.

That's great. Okay, well great. Matt, Stephanie, I appreciate it and appreciate you guys joining us today for this webinar. I only bring you things— you guys know that I only bring you things that I think really will work It worked very, very well. The last thing I'll say is Second Street offers extremely affordable solutions, guys, to these revenue needs that so many of you have. Make sure you reach out and talk with Stephanie about that. You're going to be exceedingly surprised at how affordable all the solutions that Second Street has to your business. Matt, Stephanie, thanks so much. I look forward to our next call because As technology progresses, gosh, you guys are definitely ahead of the curve, and I can only imagine there's a lot of great things happening in your research and development department as we speak. So thanks, guys.

I appreciate it very, very much.

Thanks, Ryan. We really appreciate it.