6 Growth Channels that Actually Work with Rupa Health's ex-Head of Growth Koby Conrad
Koby Conrad scaled Rupa Health from 40 to 4,000 new doctors monthly using six channels: programmatic SEO (150 articles/month, 400-500k organic views), YouTube and social, paid partnerships with schools and bootcamps ($1M+ annually), 20 conferences yearly, podcast sponsorships ($5k per episode), and outbound sales. He tested channels with paid spend first, then doubled down on organic versions of the winners.
Chapters
20 days away from annual 20 day countdown. So we hope that we are seeing many of you IRL and San Mateo. It's been awesome to see so many of you buy your tickets. We've been seeing those come through. So we are so excited to see you. We are going to be taking a little bit of a short hiatus just preparing for annual but rest assured that we'll be back post annual with the most popular workshops to dive in deeper to your questions. And you're even getting a little preview of a great annual session today with our amazing speaker, Kobe Conrad.
Thank you.
Welcome Kobe. We are excited to have you here.
Thank you so much, Taylor. I'm super excited to be here today.
So for you guys, Kobe is currently the head of Growth at One Leap and he was formerly the head of growth at Rupa Health. He's going to be doing a really amazing session talking about growth channels and kind of diving into six that worked really well and kind of the ins and outs of what worked well and what his recommendations are. So we're going to have plenty of time for questions. So feel free to drop those throughout and I'll get you queued up to either ask him live or I can help ask you too if you're not in a place where you can do that. But Kobe, before we get going into your slides, let's just learn a little bit more about your current day to day role and what you're currently working on.
Yeah. Okay. So hi, I'm currently running growth at 1le, which just for context is a platform for security compliance. You can kind of think of us like a Vanta competitor. So we do a lot of stuff with like Sock 2 and ISO and yeah, it's really interesting. So as I'll go into like this, in this presentation we, we executed across a number of different channels with Rupa Health and my, my brain thinks in channels so I'm like 60 days into this new role and currently just experimenting with what are the channels that are going to work really well for one lead. So playing around with a bunch of different stuff, newsletter ads, podcast ads, meta ads. We, we get a lot of traction through Y Combinator right now. So figuring out what's going to work for us outside of yc. Yeah, that's, that's the basic day to day Lost sales calls too.
Fun experimentation mode. That's always, always fun. And I'm yeah really excited for people to see your tactics and how you've done it at Rupa Health. So in the last 12 months, what's the hardest thing that you've worked on.
Yeah, honestly, the. The honest answer is the hardest thing in the last 12 months has been quitting Rupa. That was such an insanely tough decision for me. I love RUPA with every fiber of my being. I want to say we ended up with about 50 people on growth team, so just, it's crazy. So many people's like careers rely on you and just you make so many good friends over the years. I deeply miss my team in so many ways. So that was super tricky.
Bittersweet for sure, but great answer. I think a lot of people can relate to that. We always love to hear what is your current favorite SaaS tool or platform.
Yeah. So I will definitely have to give a shout out to posthog. The new Google Analytics updates is absolutely insane. It's made Google Analytics borderline not usable. And yeah, I set up my UTM links, we have dedicated landing pages and we're running different ad campaigns. One lead right now and I have both Google Analytics and posthog going side by side.
And.
And just the analytics from posthog is the only reason I'm able to track any amount of attribution on my campaigns right now. Like the Google stuff is driving me insane. So yeah, huge shout out to posthog. Not just product analytics, but I think they're taking up major market share on the marketing analytics side as well.
Love it. We had not heard of that one before, so we always love that. That's why we asked that question so we can hear about some new the stuff that everyone else is using. Okay, Hobie, without further ado, I'm going to pass it over to you and then I'll be back for Q and A. But take it away.
Cool. I love it. Thank you so much, Taylor. Hi friends. So welcome to my presentation on six growth channels that helped RUPA build hundreds of millions in equity. So just background context. Hi friends. My name is Kobe. So past lives. Most recently I spent about the last three and a half years scaling growth at Rupa Health. So just context, growth is always different between different orgs. So for us it is sales, marketing, partnerships, lab relationships, and our media organization. Um, so yeah, took us from about a $20 million seed to hundreds of millions of equity valuation. Depending on how you value us. Exactly. Primarily did that through scaling user acquisition. So when I first came on board, we were bringing on about 40 new doctors every single month. We scaled that by about 4,000% over the course of three and a half years. Yeah. And then went through Y Combinator back in 2019. I raised $2 million to build a conflict free replicated data type as a service. Uh, that was super fun. Um, never ultimately found like strong product market fit. Uh, and then like way back in previous lifetimes I built half a million social media followers when I was 20 and then worked on really large marketing campaigns historically. Um, largest one, we were spending about $5 million a month on Google Ads.
Um, but yeah, oops, next slide.
Okay, cool. Um, so there's all these like growth frameworks out there in the world. You got like loops and you got funnels. Um, take it for what it's worth. Take the valuable stuff and get rid of the not viable stuff. But my brain really thinks in terms of channels. Um, so I've written a lot about this. But yeah, this conversation today is going to be primarily focused on what are the channels that will drive users for your product. My theory on this is very, very simple. I think all users come from channels. This helps my brain think through stuff like organic growth, word of mouth, all of that is still channels. And when you like start think of the world in terms of channels, you're allowed to build your product and optimize these things really, really well. So yeah, in my philosophy here all users come from channels. There's usually an 8020 split to channels. Although in the B2B world there's usually a really strong overlap on as you like begin to layer channels, it becomes really powerful. And then yeah, once you identify your core channels, I think you're able to actually build your product around them like moving beyond just like basic performance marketing or demand gen. I think understanding the channels that drive growth for your product allow you to take a product led growth to this approach. To this as well. Okay, so this conversation is going to be primarily about Rupa Health. So just for context of what RUPA is, so the rest of this makes sense. RUPA is a lab platform for doctors to be able to order laboratory tests so doctors can come on to Rupa. They're able to order from 30 different lab companies all in a single platform. RUPA has a catalog now of over 35 different labs, like 3,000, 4,000 different laboratory tests. So you can think of like your lipids panels, you can also think of like advanced like hormones or like GI testing as well. And yeah, so there's going to be six channels we're going to talk about today. So we're going to talk through search, we're going to talk through social, we're going to talk through partnerships, we're going to talk through conferences, shout out to Saster, we're going to talk through influencers and we're going to talk about outbound sales and just again definitions channels are just different ways that people discover products. I gave action items at the end of each one of these sections and I hope you guys find something in here that's useful that will allow you to iterate and do something a little bit better and take some value away from this conversation today. Okay, so search started with search because not only for rupa but search is like one of the largest channels of growth in human history. So starting with like the really basic boring stuff rupa, we spend a lot of money on search. So if someone searches for a specific lab test like a GI map, we will display an ad for that GI map. So yeah you see on left hand side search for it. Like we come up first. Key learnings from just like the last couple of years performance max got really, really good over the last few years. I think Google for like I've been, I've been advertising Google for like a decade, they have been trying to get their ML really, really good so you can just like press a button and start getting like roi. I think they have like finally got there like it has been kind of this fight against Google to like like find your way around their like stupid ML algorithms. But I, man I, I've seen so many campaigns in like the last six to 12 months where you're optimizing everything on the search side. You're everything optimizing everything on like the dynamic display. But just the end of the day like the PMAX is like actually been drastically winning out. So yeah, key learnings PMAX got really good. Make sure you have your brand set up as an exclusive so you're not just bidding on your own brand terms but set up your pmax, let it rip. Make sure you like put in the right copy and creative and everything and give it time to learn for us. And this will probably be valuable for anyone in like a three sided marketplace like we are or two sided marketplace. It was really interesting where doctors and patient patients were searching for the same thing. Old school advertising is like you threw up a billboard and one person will be walking down the street that like.
Will need new shoes.
So you're like trying to speak really specifically to that person. And digital ads got really good at like filtering out everyone else except that one person that needs your product. But I, I think in the B2B space sometime times you can still get like a really strong overlap. So for us it was just really interesting. We had patients looking for GI maps and we had doctors looking for GI maps. And what's like, fascinating is ultimately our product strategy also plays into this because.
Cool.
We're primarily bidding to acquire doctors, but we threw. We have thrown away so much patient demand of patients trying to get into our system and like, order this stuff. I don't want to say too much of what's like, on the prior private roadmap, but there's definitely plays to figure out, like, how to capture this patient demand. And then, yeah, for us, just the most valuable searches were test names and individual biomarkers. So spending millions of dollars on paid search, wouldn't it be great if we could own that traffic for free? So one of the first things that we did was we took our catalog and we made what we call our reference guide. So the reference guide is, you can think of it like developer documentation, but for doctors. And this is really, really cool because this is a programmatic SEO play that was enhanced with AI and then reviewed within a small army of medical doctors. So just like a couple of key concepts here, right? We had a catalog that was like, blocked off behind, like a login system. So in order to, like, VR catalog like you had to in, that was not good for search. So we needed to build a user experience that would open up our catalog to Google. So we're able to index all the things on our catalog going back to. It was lab tests. So we, we had all of this metadata already available with different lab company names, different test names, and then within every test there would be collections of biomarkers. So every, like, lab test might have like 50 biomarkers. So maybe there's 35 lab companies, maybe there's 3,000 tests. And within each test, maybe there's anywhere from three to 50 biomarkers. So maybe there'S like 10,000 biomarkers. So what we did was we programmatically took all of that, like, metadata we had and then we enhanced it with AI. So we took AI and we added like, AI content on top of like the programmatic play. And then we had a small army of medical doctors then go back over the programmatic and AI to medically edit it. And yeah, the end result was now not only if you search for GI map do we show up on the paid ads, but we're also showing up organically right underneath the laboratory themselves. So it allowed us to capture millions of dollars of paid traffic completely for free, organically. So in addition to the reference guide. Oh, wait, sorry.
Yeah.
This is a reference guide. Yeah. And just structure landing page for every lab test. Landing page for every test, landing page for every biomarker, Landing page for every category of lab test. And then this married the PSEO play with aihance content. So in addition to the reference guide, we also publish 150 articles a month. This usually kind of surprises people. I want to say like 95% of people I talk to probably aren't publishing enough content. The way that we did this was we, we brought in a small army of medical contributors to come and write content for to do SEO. Like SEO is simple but hard. And it's simple but hard because it like all you need to do is write the best content that exists in the world. Like, like simple, right? And you got to do that at scale. So I, I think that you people like either follow like one of these two paths and they'll get themselves like I'm just gonna go massive long tail and create a bunch of low quality content or they'll go like hyper on the other direction of like I'm gonna create really good stuff. But like I small amount of it to actually win is you need to do both. Is everything you publish needs to be better than any other article that exists for it. And then you have to figure out how to do that at scale. And like that is why SEO is like actively hardened. So the way that we did this was we, we worked with a small army of medical contributors. We also layer in AI. And this like my approach of how I approach this was I don't think Google gives a shit if something is made by AI as long as it's better than anything else that exists. So AI is raising the floor, but there's still a lot of room on the ceiling of how do you make something better. So bringing in someone that's actually an expert on the topic is really effective. So you don't want to just take your AI articles. You want to make sure that there's actually an expert reviewing them. And then we also layered in like actually medically reviewing it, having everything AMA sourced, layering in graphics. And so we, we bring in experts, we, we help them write better through AI. Like that's the other thing is like you can have really smart PhDs that are just shitty writers, but like their information is really good. So it's like, how do you, how do you help these really smart people express what they're trying to express and write it in a better way? Layer in really, really great design, layer in a really great medical editing team and then like actually source everything so you can like go back your information and that allows you to create stuff that's way better than either stuff that's purely human written or either stuff that's just purely written by the AI. And yeah, just here's a fun A refs. This is performance over time. So three and a half years we're able to drive over. This is even higher now it's like at 400, 500,000 page views a month from Organic SEO. So this is really interesting because when I first started and walked into Rupa like the first thing I started doing was like cool, testing the basic stuff. Let's test Google Ads, test Facebook ads. We started 95% paid where like in order to acquire users we had to spend money. Now it's bulk is organic where we're getting all of the search traffic, we don't have to pay for it. There's a lot of like very famous VCs out there that will criticize like ah, paid doesn't scale. Which is true. You know, like, like with the paid, each additional person you buy is going to cost you more money than the one before it. The disclaimer to pay doesn't scale is that if you also are focusing on the organic version of that channel, that channel will scale for you. So over time you'll be able to acquire more and more traffic at a better and better unit economic and that is how you start with paid and then like eventually transition out the the pitfall is when you only ever stay on the paid side. So fun action items here to do. So 95 of the people listening to this probably aren't publishing enough content. SEO is hard because you need to a create something better that exists in the world right now. But then to be also do that at scale and then yeah I really like to take a strategy where I combine targeted landing pages with also a.
Spray and pray approach.
So creating stuff that is focused on like what you know is important like taking your most valuable keywords that spending paid paid ads on but then also bring in experts and start creating like mass content at scale. There's, there's probably so many keywords that maybe don't make sense from an ROI point of view on the paid side. But if you can organically rank articles and content for it, it's probably gonna.
Be super valuable for you.
And then yeah there's lots of cool things you can do right now with programmatic SEO and AI where like take whatever database of content you have, enhance it with AI, bring in graphics and then have humans edit it on top of. And that's just my current formula for how do I create really, really great content at scale. Okay, social. So at Rupa, we built our social primarily for the social proof. B2B is really interesting in the sense that maybe there's only like 100,000 doctors or 2020 to a couple hundred thousand people in your industry that that makes sense. It is very easy to display ads.
In front of them.
The issue is that those don't scale for forever, but it can play an incredibly important aspect and an incredibly important role when it comes to building trust, which will enable you to leverage partnerships and like bring in lighthouse users. It's a very important piece of the overall process. I'll dive in this later, but our very first partnership we ever got was from someone that found us through a paid ad, like on social. And like, without that, we wouldn't have been able to like secure one of our first major partnerships. Like, they just literally wouldn't have talked to us. So yeah, we, we build our social primarily for the social proof. Super important for building trust with early partners and users. Currently we have about 400,000 followers on Facebook just for us. Doctors are on Facebook, which is why that channel was important for us. And then we have about 108,000 followers on Instagram. Okay, so just random. Some tactical stuff of like, what's working organically. So you know, our, our YouTube strategy actually started from something very similar to this webinar you guys are on right now. We, for three and a half years, we call them live classes, but we'll bring in like a doctor to come do a live class. We, we did that and we were just like posting that on YouTube. And then what we did was we took our very best, like content creators that came in through that and, and then we basically created primo versions of those calls. So we use that as like kind of like our testing system to figure out like what topics and good speakers would like, perform well. And then like, once we found ones that like really engaged, we, we brought in like editors. We, we taught them how to be influencers. We layered in like really professional graphics and designs on top of that. And we, we had just a lot of success with YouTube on that. Um, the other thing I would say on YouTube for, for what it's worth, if anyone's struggling with this right now, we published 150 videos on YouTube before we got like any traction. I think like before, before we bro. Had a video break like 10k views. We were literally, I want to say like 176 videos in before we like had our first quote unquote banger that like took off. So yeah, YouTube going back again. I, I would have tried to make larger changes earlier, but also it's kind of just a play of like figuring out how to build users over time. The other thing I'll say is we, we tested just like, what is important when it comes to YouTube. So like, do thumbnails matter? Do you do like, titles matter? Like, just having a really good hook in the beginning matter? Honestly, I think 80% of YouTube is topic is. You can think of YouTube as clusters of topics. And for any individual topic, there's going to be a bunch of content and it can either be really competitive or not competitive for that topic. And you want to find topics that are trending. So like the, the search interest for that topic is rapidly increasing and you want to find topics that don't have a lot of competition. So for us it was like really weird, obscure things that I'm too technically dumb to like, identify, and I had to bring in like teams of doctors to help me figure this out. So for, for us it was like nitric oxide. For whatever reason, like, everything we publish about nitric oxide, like, just blows up, like, and we figured this out because we posted like the worst video of my life and it just went like, boom. So then once we figured that out, we started creating like, better content for nitric oxide. Other stuff for us was like, H. Hylori and like, like weird, weird things like that. And the reason why that worked is like, they're like these obscure things that only these like industry insiders kind of knew about. So there wasn't a bunch of good, like generic content marketers like myself that had already realized this. And so like, once we were able to like figure out those, those like topics that performed well, we were able.
To iterate on it.
The next thing on like Twitter, slash X, whatever you prefer to call it these days, that worked really well. I convinced our CEO to start tweeting and probably one of the highest ROI things I've ever done, if I can just take credit for that. Basically I challenged her to a bet and be like, hey, Tara, do you want to see who can get to like 20,000 followers first? And it was like, me, Tara and Cody Schneider, if you follow growth marketing people on Twitter. And Tara is a hyper competitive individual. So like the moment I challenged her, she just started going off on Twitter takeaways of this is teacher CEO how to tweak figure out whatever you can do to like convince them to actually get active on this platform. Do what is necessary to bribe them and motivate them and get them to do this. This was like the highest ROI thing that we ever did when it came to hiring. We did this purely for the hiring brand. We didn't do this at all for like doctors and stuff. But this made us, I want to say like half of the interviews that I did after this, like once she really got it going, like they would mention oh, I heard about you first on Twitter. The other takeaway from this is like our brand page never like just didn't do good. We would post identical content or like we played around with a bunch of stuff but like things I was like, oh my God, this is the best tweet in the world. Like I post that from the brand account. Like nobody gives a shit. As like when it comes to social people, people follow people, not brands. It's very hard to run a brand account. And if you like are doing a brand account, like you have to like personalize it and like create like a face and a human behind it it. And last, just like random technical thing. If any of you guys are still on Facebook, links work really well in the comments. Don't post links in the body and don't post links as links. We like 10x the amount of like link traffic we got to our podcast articles and to our, our podcast episodes and to our magazine articles once we started switching the links to the comments for whatever reason. Right now the algorithm is just like massively rewarding that, that. But yeah, so with Rupa currently our big bet is YouTube. Currently context for this. I think for the first time ever search is. Search is in danger. Like Google. Google I think is actively losing market share when it comes to search. Like a. All this AI content is coming out. User flow that used to go to articles is now being pushed to like the, the Google search, the AI prompt. So yeah, I like I'm still investing in search. I still think it's going to have a very huge place in the world. But I'm terrified that like if 95% of my users are coming through search right now, that, which, which isn't true but like if the bulk of my users are coming through search, I'm like really worried like what's going to happen to that scale. So we're like diversifying our channels and making larger bets into other platforms. Some of them that we're trying to do is like how do we make things that are AI resistant. So one of those things that is quote unquote, AI resistant is like, is video. I think that's going to be longer before video gets completely replaced with AI in the same way that articles and content is. That being said, some of the videos that came out recently are freaking amazing. So stay tuned. I could be wrong about that.
That.
Yeah, yeah. Anyways, so topic of YouTube is really important. Headlines, thumbnails, all of that is like critical. But topic I think is like 80% of YouTube is like figuring out the right topics to create content around. When it comes to most everything, ditch the brand account. Create followings that are people like founders, influencers, people want to follow humans. And then if you're still on Facebook, drop links and drop links in the comment, not in the body of the post. Okay, Partnerships. So one of the coolest things from an evil marketer's point of view that we do is we pay schools to teach about us. So within the medical space, doctors don't actually learn that much about lab tests when they go through their like, MD program or whatever. They learn through like these post medical school organizations. And just within the space that we operated, which is like functional integrative medicine, there's just like a ton of these things. So going back to one of the first partners we ever got was the Kalish Institute. And we were able to like get that partnership because their team was actively talking about us because of our Facebook social presence. But yeah, we, we started paying all these schools to integrate us into their curriculum so they would teach. Oh, you should be ordering a Dutch test or you should be ordering a GI map test, but not just that, you should be ordering it on RUPA Health Health. And that was like just insanely effective. Like, there's no better way to like build credibility and usage by like getting the people that teach you how to practice to like teach about your tooling. I think this is probably fairly applicable to a lot of people. Like, especially in the B2B space. If you're dealing with anything that's like specialized knowledge, like even with like onely insecurity, like people learn how to become pen testers. Like, like, like career content is like one of the biggest like niches in cyber security. And there's so many schools and boot camps and just places that like are teaching into this niche. This is super applicable in a number of different areas. So we were spending all this money to sponsor schools. Like the stuff will cost anywhere from like $5,000 to like half a million dollars. Like a lot of money sponsoring These institutes. So we built our own school. Like, this will be like a reoccurring theme across this presentation is we'll deploy money into channels. And then I'll get really tired of like looking at myself in the mirror and be like, Jesus Christ, Kobe, I can't believe you're spending this much money here. Like, you should just build this yourself. So we were, we were deploying all this money into schools and we're like, damn, we could probably do this better. So we, we built our own university. So this university started, like I said, very similar to like this webinar right here where like every week we brought in industry experts that would like teach about something, you know? And like, guys like, this is cool, right? Like you get, we talk about an hour about growth marketing. You're gonna walk away from this and feel like, oh, this is pretty good. Maybe I have some like action items. But it like doesn't beat like a six week program or something where like you pay money to have commitment. Like you're able to like have much smaller cohort sizes. Like you go through like a full, much more fleshed out program. That is what creates like actual usage in the context of like specialized knowledge like this. So what we did was we took live classes at the top. Then we layered in paid boot camps, which are six week programs. You spend $400 with these. You would get a free lab test. So you would get a test as part of the cost of the bootcamp that you would then order on yourself. And then you'd go through a six week program to learn how to use and implement that test. And this is freaking amazing, guys. Like, this does over a million dollars a year just by itself. Now it is profitable and it drives acquisition. So like think of terms of like Google Ads where you're like paying money is like cool. I want to scale that with positive roi. Organic search is great because like, cool. Now I'm getting this. Google Ads I don't have to pay for. This is even better. Where it's like my users are paying me money to learn how to pay me more money. So I, I classify this as like negative cac where like you're making money through your acquisition efforts. So yeah, this is really fun. Last thing I'll say about this is the learning from this came from like product insight. Like, this wasn't just like a growth marketing insight. This was us talking to our users when they were coming to us and being like, what else do you wish we had? And one of the number one things they would Tell us is like, oh, I really wish I knew. Had more resources to learn about these lab tests. So, yeah, currently offer freelive classes, boot camps, and then mentorship programs, which is like a bootcamp, but you just never stop paying me money. So action items around this. So first of all, you're probably missing some kind of key partnership beyond just major influencers. I've seen this take a number of different flavors. So it could be schools, it could be co marketing with integrated products, it could be licensing organizations, it could be credentialing organizations. There's probably really important organizations in your industry that you should make sure you're partnering with with. The second piece of this is tech companies are super afraid of service businesses. But I would say in the context of, like, growth marketing, you shouldn't be afraid of service businesses on top of your tech products. If they can drive acquisition, Hiring an army of salespeople is a service anyways. So if there's like, cool service things you can do on top of your core product that will drive acquisition, don't be afraid of that. And then, yeah, third is look at product usage to determine, like, good directions of which to build partnerships. Like what integrates into your product, what are your users asking for? What can you build on top of your core product there? Seriously, there's so many of the best businesses are built around on top of or like literally our services. Rupa, in our early days, we were like a Wizard of Oz product where we integrate with these lab partners. But when we say integrate, these people don't have APIs. It was like an army of humans doing the thing behind the scenes. Like, don't be that afraid of it. Okay. Conferences. I feel like Jason's going to give me a grade on how good my conference info is after this. Okay, so with Rupa, we go to about 20 conferences a year. And this is us and all of our shiny spacesuits. And now you might be asking me, kobe, what's with the spacesuit? Why do you show up in conferences with a spacesuit? The reason is so people will come up to me and ask me, why are you in a spacesuit? This is literally one of the most effective things that we've ever done. Imagine, like, the stuffiest medical conference you can imagine. People like, this isn't San Francisco Tech. This is like stuffy medical conferences. People are there in suit and ties. They're all polished. It's all MDs and stuff. And then all the booths are just like that. And then there is Rupa with music blasting. We're like dancing in spacesuits. Like, super sparkly. Number one thing is, like, if you're going to show up, be visually disruptive. Don't blend into the chaos of the conference hall. Do whatever you can to just make sure that, like, visually you, like, completely stand out. So key learnings from these conferences. Rule number one is most important part of a conference is like, standing out. Like, figure out what you can do to be visually disruptive. Like, make sure you look at the conference hall and, like, do as much research as you can and just do the exact opposite of what everyone, everyone else is doing. Number two is it's not just about showing up. It's about how you show up. I'm a huge believer in this, is that if you're going to show up to a conference, you should either show up strong or you should just literally not be there. Like, if you show up and you're the smallest booth in the back of the conference, that is a statement about your brand. That's not always necessarily the best statement. And you might be able to track people down and have, like, positive ROIs, but the times that we have shown up and we, like, show up as the headliner and we show up super, super strong, that has always been our highest roi. Number three is just make sure you understand where your ROI is going to come from for the conference. There is more to the world, especially in the B2B space, than just closing immediate deals. For us, we showed up to conferences for partnerships with our laboratory partners, not necessarily for the doctors. Doctors, like, we wanted to break even on the doctors, which is like our quote, unquote, like our immediate ticket sale, but our laboratories. I mean, damn if, like, we're doing $10 million a year with a specific lab, and I can get that lab to pay me, like, 1% more money. That's like our whole conference budget for the whole year. So just like, make sure you understand, like, where the ROI is. It could very likely be beyond just, like, immediate ticket sales. Like, there can likely be, like, very important partnerships that play into these conferences.
Yeah.
And then rule number four, the most profitable perks usually aren't on the menu. There have been so many conferences that I went to that they give me a media kit. They're like, this is how much the booth is like, this is what you do to show up. And then I would be like, can you send an email about me? And they're like, well, we don't really do that. And I'll be like, well, I'll be your headliner like I'll, I'll like come and be like the number one thing at this person. All I really want is I want you to send like a dedicated email about me. And they would do that and that would be more effective than actually showing up to the conference. And like, you can't get them to do that at the start, like some people will. But like the, the ones where it's actually even the most valuable is where they first tell you, no, that I don't do that for anybody. And then you convince them, hey, no, really send me a dedicated email. I'm going to be your number one sponsor. I. I've had so many times where like just that dedicated email was a higher ROI than us actually showing up to the event.
There's.
But yeah, usually with conferences, like the most profitable perks, you either aren't on the menu or you can't actually pay for. And then just like fifth learning is don't give away business cards is the worst one is give them swag that needs to be carried and brought home for us. We had these teddy bears that were dressed in a little Rupa astronaut costume and people would take these home for their kids and they'd just be a conference floor flooded with these like teddy bears. You'd see them all over the place. Like, you can't just put it in your pocket or put it in your backpack. Like you have to like carry the thing and people would like literally fight over them. We'd had practitioners like, borderline, like, threaten to like, leave us horrible reviews all over the place and shit because, like, they couldn't get their hands like one of these little teddy bears that we had. So action items email is king with conferences. Just in my opinion, if you can get a dedicated email, that can often work even better than just like shopping physically showing up to the event. The best perks of conferences usually aren't on the media kits. These can be speaking opportunities, these can be dedicated email sends. This can be convincing someone to actually, like, share their contact lists. These are all things, like, are hard to pay for. They won't do. But like, if you can make good enough friends with something, they are technically possible. So figure out how to make it happen. And then it's not just about showing up, it's about how you show up. Like, showing up as a headliner doesn't just mean you're in front of more people. It means that the strength of the impression is much stronger. So bigger ticket items are often actually the highest ROI thing that I've Seen rather than like the smaller ticket things and then just fourth bonus. Everyone's going to saster here. I probably. But I freaking love lanyards. Lanyard sponsorships have been like some of the high sri things I've seen. Especially if you're like a no name brand and like you're just showing up for the first time and you're like trying to like talk to people about your company and they're like, oh, who are you? I like, I haven't heard of you before. It can be like, sir, ma', am, you are wearing me around your neck. Welcome. I'm Kobe with Rupa Health. That has been like wildly effective for us. Okay.
Influencers.
So for us, influencers are really, really important. They're often very, very important. Most B2B industries. Key learning for this for us was that doctors learn from other doctors. If you are in the medical space. This is like one of the most important lessons I learned in like my time in healthcare. Medicine at a certain point turns into magic. And what I mean by this is if you look at like case studies and you like look at all the scientific literature that points to X, there will always be two sides of that story. And what I've seen is that people will just use whatever they believe to like try to push whatever. Whatever it is they want to believe. And at a certain point it's like it. I. I don't know how to properly phrase this.
It.
It. Eventually, it eventually kind of turns into like magic. Like, like, like, like you just kind of have to believe. And where, where I'm going with this is that trust in XYZ is the right thing to do. Comes from these influencer doctors. Guys, I'm so sorry. Someone is vacuuming right now. I'm going to put on my headphones really fast.
We can't hear either, Kobe. We can't hear the background noise. So you're good.
No.
Sounds worse for you.
Yeah. Sorry. This was literally. Okay.
You guys can still hear me. Okay, Taylor.
Yep, we're good. We lost your screen and share a little bit. Yep, there you go.
Love it. Back to back to doctors. Okay. So doctors learn from other doctors. People will believe a celebrity doctor with a million followers that says something more than they'll believe the actual scientific studies behind it. So because of that, this was just like an incredibly important piece of our play. Not. And this is very true too in the consumer world is you'll get a lot of medical misinformation that's being spread around and it's just like a Double edged sword. If you're trying to influence people, doing it from the point of view of an MD with millions of followers is just wildly impactful and it's just the state of the world that we live in right now. So with Hyman, I want to say spent like Hyman costs. You can do your own math. Hyman costs $5,000 per episode. We, for the last three years, sponsored almost every single episode. He publishes multiple ones a week. We're spending like a metric boatload of money with Hyman. So going back to like looking in the mirror, being like, holy cow, I spent so much money with this dude, I should just build my own influencer. So yeah, we hired Dr. Carrie Jones, who is one of the most talented ladies I've met in my life, to.
Be our head of medical education.
We built the Root Cause Medicine podcast, which is like a top 10 medical podcast. Still not as big as Hyman's, but give us a little bit more time. An interesting learning of this is Carrie had like her, her brand was already too big. Like at a certain point she, she continued to grow and grow and grow and then like she left us and we cried. So what we did the second time around is we found someone with a much smaller brand. So if you can build a brand around someone smaller, that's still like a plus credibility and A plus like content creation. You are able to own that as a company much more than if you hire in someone that's a bigger brand. Last thing about like influencers, especially podcasts, attribution tracking is really hard. Do ask users how they heard about you, and then you kind of have to make a guess in the dark. Hyman was our number one source of how people heard about us, as they put it in. The reason we were able to know that is we did it so early and he was so big that we would just see a massive increase in signups and then they would drop off. So like, we knew it was coming from Hyman, but we were only able to show attribution for about half of them. So if you were already big, this becomes really hard because it means that in order to like see that bump, you're gonna have to spend a lot of money. And in order to just like, see the total end of your like signups or leads or deals or whatever, you're gonna, you're just gonna have to spend enough money to actually see a bump in or, and then you're gonna have to make like a really strategic guess. But done effectively, it can be just like insanely. Impactful. So action items around this likely. There's a huge 8020 in your industry by simply going to, like, the biggest influencers in your space. If you're dropping major money on influencers, make sure to be building your own versions as well so you're not tied to them forever.
Third, attribution isn't real. When it comes to.
When it comes to, like, podcasts and stuff like this, you kind of have to go with your guide, like, ask people, how did you hear about us? Create discount codes, make landing pages for that specific influencer that you've, like, pushed them to. But just know that, like, the direct attribution you can see is probably at best, like 50% accurate and that the true ROI is likely going to be much higher than what you're able to see. Yeah. Okay. I believe this is my last section. So outbound sales. Okay, so. Hi, this is Toby. I'm your RUKA lab rep. Are you still interested in ordering Dutch tests? You know, it's really funny. This was the very last thing that we scaled, and this was to do for a number of reasons. First of all, if you're hiring a team of people to do sales and you fuck up, that sucks because it means you have to start firing people. People, like, if you mess up on Facebook ads or Google Ads, you just, like, turn down the budget. If you mess up with sales teams, it means you started having to have a bunch of really hard conversations that can just have a horrible impact on your organization. The second thing is that when we started doing this, at the start, it didn't work. And the reason it didn't work was, like, no one had heard about us before. Cold calling and outbound sales becomes so much more impactful once you layer in everything else. Like, the calls that we have towards, like, my. The end of my time at rupa, it went from, I'm a busy doctor, why are you calling me? Please F off to oh, my God.
I love Rupa Health.
I've seen you all over Hyman's podcast and I get all of your emails and I've watched your webinars and I love you to death. I've been thinking about you. Like, how. How can I talk to you? So, yeah, just some tactical stuff that helped us take this for what it's worth.
Worth.
So I put this into, like, bad, good and great. So I think a bad cold call pitch is super generic, right? It's like, hi, this is Kobe. Do you order lab tests? A better version of this is, hi, this is Kobe. I'M your RUPA lab rep. Do you order lab tests? The I'm your RUPA lab rep works like, two concepts behind this. The first one is that doctors are already used to having replacement reps for different things. Like, they have a supplement rep, they will have a Cyrex rep, they'll have a GI map rep. They're used to having reps for things that they use. So having a reason and a category and some kind of pattern match to call them in a way that makes sense in their brain. First, it'll help you get through more gatekeepers because it adds legitimacy to why you're calling. And then second, you're just pattern matching in a language that they understand way better. Then like, the great version of it is like, hi, this is Kobe, I'm your lab rep. Like, are you still ordering Dutch completes? And the reason for this is it's like super specific, right? It's like, it sounds like I have a reason to be calling you. It's like, oh, you're ordering the specific thing. Like, I am your lab rep. I'm pattern matching to this, like, language of product that you're like, super passionate about and like, only, you know. So like, if you call like, I get this all the time. It's like, oh, Kobe, do you want some like, lead generation on Twitter? And do you want some like, some like, lead generation on like, LinkedIn? That is so boring and generic. But like, if you're calling me and you're like, hey, Kobe, my name is so and so and I. I'm really, really good at like creating sock two leads through this very specific channel that you care about. And I did this for Vanta and Drata and Secure Frame name. And here's my case study that showed like a thousand x roi. All of a sudden that becomes way more interesting. So the, the sooner you can pattern match to like, someone's like, very specific thing that they care about, you'll just see the ROI of, of your contacts, like, drastically increase. So, yeah, why does work for us? Our audience was first used to us at this point. They, like, liked their local reps for supplements and labs. We had built a huge amount of brand love of before we started cold calling people like, it had sucked beforehand. We're able to pattern match with our users really well. Also, just a key element of this, we were selling into small businesses, so we would call them solo practitioners, but often they were doctors, which meant we could actually get the decision maker to pick up. It wasn't like we were gate kept behind like this admin person that wouldn't pass us on to the doctor.
We were able to identify the phone.
Numbers and we were able to get in direct contact with decision makers. And then yeah, we layered this with email, LinkedIn and direct mail outbound as well. So it wasn't just cold calling and like these concepts also apply to all these other channels. It is email, LinkedIn, direct mail, all the above. So action items. Email is an important part, but make sure you're still cold calling. We saw a massive delta and conversion rates of our contacts between like simply automated emails and messages versus adding other cold calling separate from. I would. I almost always separate my cold calling function from my inbound function. It is so hard to manage and train people to hunt versus convert inbound leads. Like if you're like trying to convert leads that are coming to you versus like hunting for new business business. I have just always separated those and found just drastically increased successes. People get super specialized into sales motions. With Rupa, we broke out our sales teams like that. So we had separate teams for inbound lead conversion for outbound like hunting and then we actually had a completely separate team for conferences as well which is like a different motion all within itself. Third piece is outbounding doesn't live in isolation. Make sure you layer in marketing and blend the ROI, but your budget ROI. So it's not like 100% given to outbound like marketing and podcasts and everything else you do absolutely makes an impact on your outbounding. And then fourth case is outbounding sucks.
I don't know how many of you.
Guys have like cold called people before or.
But like I don't know.
My, my first door, my first job was like door to door sales and like I'm knocking someone's door and like a couple times I had like guns pointed in my face and stuff. Like even, even on like calls and stuff is like you get so many people that'll like tell you to fit off. Outbounding sucks. I don't like thinking of this as a junior role. I think that people that are truly world class at outbounding are worth their weight in gold and you should probably pay them well. Okay, so closing takeaways first. All users come from channels. All users come from channels. Solving for channel is one of the biggest moments of inflection in a company's life life post. Like building a good product slash product market fit. I think that startups usually go in stages where it's like first can this team slash founder build something that anyone is going to give a about. But once that happens, the next major inflection point is once you figure out how to scale your channels. Once you scale channels, that's when real growth starts to happen beyond just simple word of mouth mouth and you can see like a 10,000% increase in like how big a company gets. This is so important if you are an investor or if you are a marketer. If you are thinking about joining a company. I've seen so many people make a massive amount of money just around that concept. Second, start experimenting with paid to see what is effective. Don't rely on paid for the rest of your life life. Double down on organic versions of whatever is converting for you on the paid side. And then once you identify major channels, make sure to build your product and features to do around those major channels. So don't just separate marketing and sales from products. Make sure you think through like product strategy and roadmap and how that plays in with your most major channels. Cool. Okay guys.
And that is everything.
I hope something in there was useful and you will take that away and find that valuable. But yeah.
Hey Kobe, it's Jason. I know we just have a few minutes but I thought I might help with a few questions I was curious about. First of all, at the end, cold calling in 2024. So what do you mean? Do you mean cold calling be you? Who are you cold calling? You telling me doctors are thrilled in the middle of surgery or in the middle of a patient that they they're so thrilled some 21 year old SDR called them in the middle of their hectic days. What do you mean by cold calling working?
I literally mean that our people weren't surgeons for context. They, they are busy doctors. But yeah, we were absolutely able to get doctors on the phone and get them to buy our products like through cold calling. So I mean if it works for us in that situation, like I, I'd be very hard pressed to believe like it doesn't work for other people as well. Yeah it is.
I do think there's a theme in all of your. I do think that all this stuff, a lot of the stuff you talked about works if you do it really well. Some, some of it may not work if you do a mediocre job. But anyhow it's a good challenge. So you're having kids with a script that you wrote. Call them to set up an appointment so an AE will try to sell them the the process product.
I actually make them full life cycle. So I, I you we hired say like 5ish outbound reps. And what we did was we gave them contacts, go hunt down these people and get them to close and buy and use our product so they're full life cycle. The other thing too is we, we gave them very targeted calls, texts so you can spend a lot of time calling people that are just a waste of weed. What we did was we, we heavily lead scored these people so we scraped our whole industry, we put them into an Excel sheet, we layered in the number of Google reviews, your domain age, your domain authority, how many social media followers you had. We then we basically took like the top 10,000 of those people and we say these are our 10,000 most valuable customers. And then we told that team to go hunt down those people through any means possible. So call them, email, show up at the door, do, do whatever it takes like get in front of these people and call them. Yeah, I'll say we had 50% contact rates like is cool call inspector.
Yeah. And a lot of them going in person too to try to get in the door.
Yeah. We would do it in whatever location the reps are in. Honestly they weren't as thrill as that piece but it was mostly cold calling and emailing. But yeah, we definitely knocked on a few actually physically knocked on a few doors still.
But it sounds like. And then just maybe one or two other different ones. It does sound like it's interesting that work. But you did, you did assist them by giving them a pretty quality list of folks to hunt for. It was qualified, it was segmented. They weren't given shitty leads, they didn't have to open the yellow pages. You gave them each a thousand names and their job was to go down this over X months. Right. And we're judged based on their connect rate to the folks, the thousand folks on the list.
Yeah, connect. Same close. Yeah.
Oh you're right. They're full stack. Okay.
Yeah, it's good.
It's a challenge. I, I do think people are anyhow I want to go out. I do. I. It's a great story. It's almost one worth digging more into like cold calling. Right. I, I think it's one of the sales skills that has degraded with the lazy sales rep rep who just randomly is calling numbers they got off Apollo or Zoom info to annoy you. So doing it right I think is maybe even more of an art than, than you let on. But that, that's good. The other one just for folks in terms. So that's lazy selling. A question on lazy marketing. All the stuff on SEO you talked about 150 articles a month. Relatively top name. I think you said something very important that it needs to break through on SEO today. And let's not even talk about AI search. It has to be the best of breed content or it's not ultimately going to work. Right. Two questions. One is, is it worth doing if you're, if you're a marketer and you have limited time and this isn't your passion area, is it worth doing a B minus effort here?
That's a good question.
Not everyone can do what you just did for a variety of reasons. And I see a lot of mediocre content marketing and people feeling like they're making progress with mediocre marketing. Where's the line? Where it's worth it and where it's not even worth it.
Yeah. I'm gonna follow that up with something else that I get asked a lot is like, should I hire an agency to do this?
Yeah.
And I think it's a very similar question is like, this isn't my core.
That's a line. That's a version of it.
Right.
I'll have an agency do it for 15 grand a month. Right?
Right. Yeah. I'm a simple man when it comes to my growth formula. It is, how good is the product and how good is your distribution? And that equals growth. So make the product better and like, distribute yourself. This is my. Oh, hello. Fireworks. That's weird. This is my philosophy. If you wouldn't hire a, like a contract, like, like a agency for your product managers to like, make all of your product decisions, I don't think you should do that for growth marketing, like for marketing and sales either. Like, if it's going to be valuable for you, you should own it. I think the, the places that I've brought in agencies is when I like need the quote, unquote, best person in the world to do something. So I, I actually, I actually almost go the other direction where, like, I'll start doing it myself and then, but I, I won't be as egotistical to believe that I am like the best human that has ever existed on the face of the planet, like Google Ads. But I will then go and try to find that person and bring that person in, like at scale to go and manage and do an even better job than me. So I, I go, usually we'll go that direction rather than the opposite of like, like cool. Like, this is my best thing. Like, how do I find someone worse to do it? I, I, I be like, cool, I'm going to make This a core competency. And then I'm going to bring in like, even better experts to come and execute here.
Yeah. Hiring an agency before you have a basic level of core competence in the function is a recipe for losing all of your money. Just, just. You might as well just burn it. But it's a good insight. Maybe it's two of those because I think we run out of time. But I, I'd love to learn from what you said. All these channels you talked about, you talked a little bit less about referrals given. I can't. I. Whether it's DOC, especially in verticalized SaaS, like, referrals are everything and the word of mouth is everything. We can talk about marketing forever. It's all word of mouth, in my opinion. And everything you're doing is to accelerate word of mouth. Get the sales rep to accelerate word of mouth. Get the event. This is my opinion. But, but referrals, I would imagine vertical SAs, they work even better. Doctors talk, they don't compete. Right. I mean, they compete lightly. Any. Any best practices you learned to accelerate the. That referral loop.
Yeah. Okay, so two things. First of all, just context setting. In medicine, there's a lot of legal stuff around referrals. So a lot of the things.
I meant word of mouth maybe more than paid referrals, but good point. It's hard to pay. Maybe very impossible to pay people. Right. To bribe them.
I usually think of referrals as a way to accelerate word of mouth. There's some caveats to that where, like, product is important and marketing is important. When, when I'm thinking through, like, how do I incentivize, like, more referrals and like word of mouth to happen? I will usually think through. There's a really good book hooked that will talk through, like, people's like, different, like, motivating factors. Right. So you got like rewards at the time same the self. You got rewards of the tribe and you got rewards of the hunt. So rewards of the self is like self mastery. Rewards of the tribe is like, how do I look really good in front of my peers? And then rewards of the hunt is like money. And I, I think the best way to like, incentivize additional word of mouth is when you align your program with whatever reward is most relevant to your user. So like Y combinator does this really well. Like, they don't pay anyone to like refer Y combinator. There's like a leader leaderboard. You're going to be like, at the top of like the YC leaderboard and Be like I was like the number one referral person into yc. It's like, it's like very heavy system on like rewards. Rewards of the tribe. Like Robinhood will give you like Robinhood stock, you know, like, like they'll, they'll do it like very relevant to whatever the product is. So I wish what I could have done to do this would to have been like give away like lab tests. But I think that for stuff like that this, the things that I could execute on is rewards of the tribe. So I wouldn't underestimate your ability to drive additional word of mouth by making people look good in front of their peers. But then yeah, what's really interesting is if you group together like how people heard about us for like referrals and word of mouth, the chart of that is exactly the same. If you layer that on top of our paid acquisition same graph, we would drive 100 users through Google or Facebook ads and then 30 of those paid people would refer their friends. I, I think that is the other thing that people very often miss with their like demand gen efforts is they'll be like oh damn it. I. This was like break even. Like I'm. Why am I wasting my time with this? Like this is barely making money. Like, like maybe I'm even.
Break even is good.
And 20. Yeah, yeah. It's like I think it's great if you able to scale positive freaking do that all day long. But even if you're just breaking even, sometimes you're just pushing the boulder up the hill. So if you can drive demand gen like that. I've seen so many companies go into this death spiral where they're spending money on ads. Organic is good. Their attribution is a break even. And then some make fun of CFOs for a second but some CFO comes in and they're like ah, why are we spending money here? We should cut that. So then they cut that through piece and then the organic disappears with the paid. So I, I think be very careful as you reduce your spend. Like your, your attribution on is from organic is probably partially, not partially, it is influenced by the paid as well. So we built our whole strategy around that. Honestly. Like we, we look at acquisition as best we can. Channel by channel. Channel. But then we, we would only look at ROI on a blended basis. So we would be like this is the total blended roi. So we'd use that for like ROI calculations. And then channel by channel we would just look at it comparatively. So like this channel versus this channel. Like that's how they perform. But yeah, the, the, the graphs of like organic and word of mouth versus like paid is just literally clones of each other. If you like put them on top of each other. It's insane.
Yeah, there are a lot of. We can wrap up here. There are a lot of marketing death spirals that are happening. The one that I see a lot that is under discussed because it's hard to see from the outside for what it's worth to folks is the one that's happening when folks are under stress. Today what a lot of SaaS B2B people are doing is putting 100% of their marketing spend into enterprise. They're looking at their base. The SMBs churn. The sales team wants to close bigger and bigger deals. There's 120% NRR in the enterprise, there's 80% in the S and B. And I've got to make a choice in marketing. And I can list you a lot, a lot of names including multiple public companies who I've talked to their CEOs and they've cut a hundred percent of their SMB spend. And it's one of these things that on a short term spreadsheet sort of makes sense. But it also creates this death spiral if you under, if you don't invest in half your customer base. Right. And your biggest, often your biggest champions are the armies of small guys. Right. And when you cut that to zero and you only have six million dollar champions, it's tough. But I see this, this, I'd say I'd see this at 80% of even multiple public companies that have seen growth slows. Okay. My budget's cut in half. I'm putting it all on the seven figure deals.
Yeah, it's kind of like angel text too, right? Like sometimes like your best angels are just like the small little 5K checks. Yeah, I, 100% I think especially with like marketing sales because like quote unquote growth leadership roles have such hype turnover. If you don't get inserted at the start, you don't have historical context as well. So like you can get so much, so much of like how does this perform, like context in someone's head. And then if you like get put in into the middle like you, it's so hard to understand what is causing what. And then yeah, you start cutting certain things without understanding like the beginning of life cycle to end of life cycle and you can end up making like very bad decisions. And then sometimes those decisions take a long time to play out, you know, like like what you're just saying is it takes a while for like a mid tier, like a SMB to whatever mid market, like grow into enterprise. So like that, that is a decision that plays out not over like quarters like but every like years. And then you're like three to four years down the line be like, why did my enterprise growth stop? And it's like, well, you stopped investing in like Ben Market and SMBs.
Yeah. Or what did my net or you what's happening with a lot of folks that have done this a couple years down the road? Why did my net new customer count drop? I was able to push some up, but if I stopped investing at my bottom of my pyramid, there's no one to harvest two to three years out. No one grew into these bigger accounts. I see that a lot of folks now at nine figures in revenue is now we can break the numbers. The last few years look good on the top line because of high nrr but their new customer count slowed and slowed and there's a bunch of even public companies or their net new customer count is now zero. Like it's, it's NRR or nothing. And that's, that's when you don't. It's a tough one. But I love your. We could talk for. I love your. Your point is really good for founders about new marketers coming in not having the context or understanding of the life cycle. It may even be worse that immediate anyone but the best marketers also come in and only want to do what they did at their last company. I did this amazing content thing with experts or I did this amazing thing on YouTube and they don't like events and so they dump the events or they don't believe in the long tail. And I was literally talking the other day with the CMO that I've known for years. I do love her. She's. She's great. But I asked her why they were do and she just took a new role and I asked her why they were doing something that I knew was like, okay. Like, I knew it wasn't like great, but I knew it wasn't a bad idea. I said, why do you do it it? And I thought the answer would be, well, I, I want to do it better. I want to tweak it. She's like, oh, that was the person before me. We're getting rid of that. I'm like, I didn't say it was. It didn't. I didn't say it was ROI negative. I was just curious. But she's just g doesn't have the context, doesn't know why it works. It didn't believe in it. And immediately this. This initiative for two years is going to be dead in 30 days. Right?
Yeah. No, that's scary common. It's super common. Yeah. It's so, so easy to form without trapping.
Anyhow, thanks for all the time. I know we ran over. I don't know if we have anything else, but appreciate everyone and we'll. We'll edit this and put it on the pod and all of our YouTubes and all that kind of stuff and see everybody at Saster annual September 10th through 12th SF Bay Area.
Thanks, everybody, including Kobe. Kobe will be there to. We didn't get a ton of questions, so thank you, Jason, for the commentary. And Kobe will be back to talk about this at annual, so make sure that you're there so you can ask us questions for you in person too. But thanks, Kobe. We'll talk to you soon.
See everyone.
Thank you, everybody.
Thanks, Taylor. Thanks, Jason. Bye, friends.
