“Bringing AI Products to Market” with Trustero’s VP Product and VP Customer Success

Okay, welcome everybody. We're going to be talking to you today about bringing AI products to market and some things that actually worked and some that didn't quite work. So we'll start with a focus on LLMs, which are, that's an abbreviation for large language models, type of AI trained on the world's written language. So some things about this that you need to know. ChatGPT, that's probably the most famous LLM out there. It's the fastest growing consumer application in history, in case you haven't heard of it before. Reached over 100 million users in its first few months. I'm sure for this crowd, you guys are familiar with that. Couple of useful ways to think about AI. Number one, they're concentrators of consensus. So that means if there's a large body of information available in written form, so things like the text on the Internet, books, other things that LLMs have been trained on, that's an area where an LLM is quite likely to provide you with useful information. A little bit of a sort of a oversimplification in terms of how they work is you can think of them as predicting the next word. And when there is consensus on that, they do a pretty good job. They will fill in accurately what that next word should be. But absent that data, they're prone to make things up. So some of you guys may have heard of hallucination problem that happens typically when absent enough data. They're very happy to give you information. It just may not be the information you're looking for.

And because of the way that LLMs learn and are trained, like Nick implied in the last slide, there are safer domains. Maybe your company is in a safer domain where everything seems to work well. It's because there's a lot of data and a lot of content for the LLM to look at and produce the correct response versus the riskier. What we're going to call risky or subjective domains are industries like law or we're in compliance, where it still heavily relies on a human expert to interpret it and tell you the correct response. So today we're going to get into a little bit of, you know, more focus on the risky domains and.

How.

To bring AI into your project, if that is your industry.

Okay, so as Jenna mentioned, risky domains, not so risky domains. So a little bit of a click into what are some safer domains? And this is an important question that you all should be thinking about in terms of your own deployment of LLM technology in your business. Is this an area where there's a huge body of knowledge and consensus. If so, things can go pretty well. So GitHub Copilot, for example, that's a tool that assists with writing code. It's been trained on billions and billions of lines of code that's out there. So if you need to write some boilerplate Java, for example, that's already a job where it's providing a ton of value. So one estimate is over 60% of new Java code is being written with the assistance of LLMs in the form of copilot. There are other domains that are like that where there's well known answers, lots and lots of training data, but that doesn't apply to every domain. And so in those circumstances, what are the risks that you're gonna face?

Yeah, so the riskiers or more subjective domains like law are the ones that produce these really catchy entertaining fails. And they're entertaining as long as you aren't the subject. So for example, the New York lawyers who decided to use strategies to write a legal brief didn't realize that ChatGPT can hallucinate and end up making up cases for his brief, which of course the judge caught and he was sanctioned. So things like that where you do absolutely still need a human expert even if you use the AI so that you don't become a subject of one of these AI fails.

So with that in mind, we at trustao, we're in the compliance business and that happens to be one of those domains where there isn't necessarily a huge body of data from which an LLM to drop. So it's prone to, in a sort of untrained mode to not be that reliable. And so as an example, ISO 27001, that's a information security compliance framework that some of you guys may be familiar with. One of the bits of ISO is a control called cabling security. And it comes down to you need to label controls and label your cables, rather physical cables in certain circumstances. And a common question is, well, does that actually apply to remote workers? Or what's the deal with this control? Essentially? And so you might think and might be tempted to go and ask an LLM.

And so we're going to walk you through how we found our Goldilocks solution to produce a response that is safe and accurate and you feel good about giving it to your customers. But it also uses LLM and all the techniques that we are going to go through, hopefully you can also apply to your business. And I think our example is pretty entertaining. We actually experienced this firsthand.

So it turns out. The correct answer on the cabling security is if you're working remotely, no, you do not have to label your power cord. For example. A human expert would tell you that answer very confidently, very succinctly, very quickly. However, human experts do not scale infinitely and they cost money. That's why you hire compliance experts, sometimes consultants, that type of thing. So human experts, great at getting you that correct answer, but what can we do with an LLM?

So then you're like, okay, well great, I'll just go and use AI. I'll type in the question, it'll give me the response, I don't have to hire a human. I don't have to deal with all that we can put into the product. It will scale great. Well, we asked the question of AI and it very confidently told us the wrong answer. Even when we asked them, wait, are you sure? We were using ChatGPT, and every time it said yes, you absolutely have to label all your cables, even for work from home employees, which is incorrect. The correct answer is no, only if you're a data center. And so even with, you know, we kept trying to prompt it like, are.

You sure that's correct?

Are you sure work from home employees have to label their power cables? And it kept doubling down with that incorrect response.

So super confident and super wrong. So what's the way out of that? There's a variety of techniques where you can actually put in some guardrails that will assist the LLM. So in domains where you're lacking perhaps enough support objective knowledge, or enough objective knowledge, enough sort of body of text out there to have high confidence that's going to give you correct answers, you can actually inject in the prompt some guidance. So the way we end up using it is we want to provide tailored guidance for a variety of circumstances, but augment that with the correct human answer. So we'll give general guidance and then combine that with things about the customer and you may be able to do the same in your own domain. So inject that human knowledge, that human expertise, and then let the LLM do its own thing while being sort of constrained and kept on the right path.

So our key takeaways from all this is, you know, first decide what is your industry, are you in a safer industry or, or are you in a higher risk industry? And if you are in the high risk domain, make sure to include human expertise in all your requests. Include it in your prompts to make sure that you get the answers that are correct and you feel good about giving them to your Consumers and then don't be afraid to experiment and iterate. We've been working on this for a very long time to get to a place where we feel confident and our responses and it is actually scalable to our consumers.

Yeah.

And if anybody would like any additional, like click down into this. We only had 10 minutes for the talk, but we'd be happy to talk to you about some specific techniques that you might be able to apply to actually make this work. A lot of it comes down to how do you feed the right thing into the prompt. And so there's a few things that we've learned through hard work, trial and error iterating, as Jenna mentioned.

So yeah, our booth is in the west building if you want to come say hi. Thank you very much.

Right, thank you everybody.

Research and figure out who their CFM.

Is because the issues that.

I also mentioned a little something about Churn scores and I'm like, call me.

Please welcome to the stage Kaylin Law, Manager, professional services at Churn0, and Yumon Seng, CEO at Churn0.

All right, good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon. I'm Yuman Tseng. I'm the founder and CEO of Turn Zero and with me is Kaitlyn Law, my colleague from Turn Zero. And if you don't know Turn Zero, we help your customer success team. Teams really understand your customers, onboard them correctly, make them successful and help them fight churn. So today we're gonna talk about essential metrics for your customer success teams. And these are the essential metrics that are overlooked. So why are they overlooked? Okay, so folks like myself, like your investors, your board, they're obsessed with nrr, net revenue retention, they're obsessed with nps, net promoter score. And these are super important. I'm obsessed with those as well. I mean, I think those are top line metrics. But there's a difference between what the board wants to see and what your chief customer officer is doing. So these are metrics that are overlooked but are super important to your chief customer officer, the cco. So let me hand it over to Kaylin. She will go over through some of them.

Hey, everyone.

So the first metric that I want to talk about today is your up for renewal amount or ufr. So this number is a clean representation of the dollars that you can retain. So a lot of customer success leaders don't have the tools or don't have the knowledge to accurately calculate this number. But it is really important to prioritize doing that because it's the foundation for assessing healthy revenue across all of your other Categories. So there are three things that you can do right now to help find ufr. The first is identify your source of truth. We all have a lot of systems that we enter a lot of financial data into and that shifts and changes. But you want to make sure you know exactly where to look for UFR and that everybody's looking at that same spot. The second thing is to build a culture of data cleanliness. Like I said, we keep layering on financial data, changes on contracts, things like that. We want everyone across the board to be obsessed with keeping clean data. And that comes to the third point, which is partner with your RevOps team. UFR is established in the sales cycle and it carries with that customer through and through every renewal cycle. So your RevOps team really needs to understand where sales need to put that amount and where every other team is going to look at that amount through and through.

Now, the interesting thing about UFR is look, it's an obvious metric. Everyone needs to know it. The reason why we think it's overlooked is that the majority of CS teams don't know how to calculate it. So fix that, calculate it and you'll be able to run a much smoother team.

Yep, keeping it rolling on revenue metrics. The next in is gross revenue retention or grr. So this is really important to talk about because a lot of younger customer success organizations really focus on nrr their net revenue retention as the primary goal. But GRR is really sacred because it's what you use to assess whether the customers that you originally sold to are willing to continue that same spend with you cycle over cycle. GRR can also be really informative and insightful. When you look at it next to your logo retention. Did you lose one major customer or did you lose a lot of nickel and dime customers? So looking at those next to each other is really great. So calculating grr, don't be daunted by the math formula. I'm not going to math at you right now, but there are only three data points that you really need to calculate your grr, and those are the recurring revenue in that period, the total amount of churned revenue, and the total amount of downgrades or contractions in that period. So there are three things that you can do right now in order to create a better grr. The first is ask yourself, are we spending enough on our customer success department? If you're not spending 5 to 15% of your company's revenue on your customer success department, you really need to revisit that and make an investment in your customers experience. Because our number two is being obsessed with onboarding. Onboarding, as we all know, is the make or break moment for whether or not your customer is going to be satisfied and renewed with you. So making sure you're investing in CS and CS is zoning onboarding that impacts every single account is major to making sure that your GRR stays intact. And that brings you to the third point of investing in process. You need to invest in process to maintain your grr. Because when you define your customer life cycle and you can successfully guide a customer through the lifecycle you've defined, your GRR should naturally maintain.

There's a couple things about grr. One's pretty unfair, right? So grr. If your customer shrinks with you, it hurts your grr. Turns out if your customer expands with you, you don't get credit for it. Right? So it's a limiting metric. It's often in the 80s and 90s, it can't be over 100. So it's kind of a punishing metric. But it's a really good metric. Like, you know, for most of us, we focus on nrr, net revenue retention. That includes upsells, cross sells, expansion. A good sales team, you know, can really hide the sins of a bad product. Right? So if you have a pretty good NRR, but a not so good grr, you know, you've got to be careful as a founder, as a CS team, that means that your ability to do business is very, very strong.

Strong.

And maybe your ability to service your customer is weak, maybe your product is weak. So that's where GRR is really important is, is your product and your service doing well? So focus on GRR for that.

Absolutely. So that takes us to our third metric, which is customer satisfaction score or csat. And yes, I do mean CSAT and not mps because this type of survey, it's extremely dynamic. You can meet your customer where they are in the customer life cycle. So it's giving you very intimate knowledge of their experiences with your team and with your defined process. So you can collect feedback at very specific moments, like when implementation is complete, when they close a support ticket, or if you do bespoke projects, getting feedback right on that. It's really easy to measure C CSAT on a scale of 1 to 5. Just me ask right away because there are four things that I'm going to tell you about CSAT that are going to help you use this data effectively. The first is to be timely with the ask. As soon as that activity is done, send out this survey and Then act quickly on what the survey results are. If they give you a low score, like a one out of five, talk to them. Why did that happen? What was your experience? How can we fix it if it's.

A 5 out of 5?

Also talk to them right away. Thank you so much. What were the positive experiences that you had so that we can lean into that a little bit more? The third is to go for a high response rate. We're going to throw a lot of surveys out to everybody who was involved, but we really want to see a lot of people giving us a survey response. And in order to do that, you would kind of need to be flexible with how you're going to be surveying. You can send it via email, but there are other options. You can ask live, you can send an in app pop up. You can do a lot of different things to increase your response rate and therefore validate the numbers that you're getting. The fourth is to segment by user type. While we would all love to believe that everyone's opinion is as important as the next person's, it's not true. We want to know what the executives think, we want to know what the decision makers think, we want to know what our buyers are thinking and we want to be able to pull out those folks when we are assessing that data.

So let me make a comment about NPS versus csat. Bottom line, you need to do both. You need to ask for an NPS score once or twice a year and you have to ask for a CSAT score once. Something happens, happens. Something is done. A ticket has been completed, an implementation has been done, right? So a CSAT is, are you satisfied with the service you just got? Implementation whatnot, NPS is, would you recommend, you know, my company to appear? I love nps. My CCO loves csat. I like NPS because I care about the product, I care about customers success, I care about customer support, and my CCO cares about is my team functioning well. So really two different things, but both super important. Which then really leads me to the key takeaway here of all these metrics, right? There are really two different types of metrics. One is about managing your CS team. We talked about that today. That's ufr, that's grr, that's csat. These are metrics that are underutilized and also sort of underwhelming for most executives, but super important for your cco. When I'm building, managing a company, I care about nps, I care about nrr. And then as my company gets bigger and Bigger I really, really care about. Grr. Okay, so think about all those things when you think about all your customer success metrics. Kayleigh Kaylin and are here to answer any questions you have. And you can also Visit us at Booth 241 in Hangar West. So come by and say hi. Thanks everyone.

Thanks for taking care.

Please welcome to the stage Randy Wooten, CEO at Maxeo and Chelsea Stoner, general partner at Battery Ventures.

Hello everybody. Welcome. Well, we are just super excited to be here and to build on you Man's talk about what are the right metrics for customer success. We're going to talk about what are the metrics that investors care about. And with me is Chelsea Stoner, the general partner at Battery, one of the top investment firms out there, top quartile consistently. She's been investing in the space for about 17 years behind like Avalara Intact and other companies that are focused on the office of the CFO. And she's the idea behind bringing SaaS optics and charge of Fire together, which became Maxio. So Maxio is a billing and subscription management financial operations platform and I'm CEO, been there about a year. So the state of B2B subscription growth, a couple of things. One, everyone's been talking about the world has changed. Valuations are going down. If you look at the trends in the public companies, 220, 2023, significantly lower at 5x. You all who've been around for a while know it used to be crazy high 20, 30x. I mean I've been in the space for about 23 years and watched it pop and drop over that whole time. This is a 75% decline from the average valuation seen in 2021. So if you take the public company, you can track that. At Maxio, we have 2300 companies. We are the system of record for billing and invoicing. That means we know what's really going on. Jason Lemkin actually shared this at his keynote earlier. That bottom line is what we've seen across our private company growth. And this is thanks to a good friend of ours, David Smith, who put this together for us. And then in the Maxio Institute report, which are gonna be copies in the back if you want, which gets into the next level of detail. We outline what the growth trends have been in private companies. Private companies, about a million bucks to maybe 50, 60 million dollars. Again, the N is 2 2000. What you've seen is in Q1, 2022, it was the heady days, 30% year over year growth in Q1 of this year it dropped to 15 across the entire segment. And what we're talking about is, hey, Q2, 20, 23, you see a little bit of. A little bit of a turn. Has it bottomed out? I don't know. But stand by Q3. We'll come out with another report and we'll tell you what's happening.

I think so.

We think it's.

Yeah. What are you seeing?

Yeah, that's exactly what we're seeing. We're seeing kind of the moderation now. It decelerated very quickly, as we all know, and we are seeing flattening out throughout the.

Cool.

So one of the ways we split the data is we look at it by size of company and stage of company. And so, Chelsea, when we look at this and we see the decreasing growth rate in the smaller companies between sort of 1 and 2 million, and then you see really 0 to 1 million. As an investor, what strikes you with that?

Yeah, I mean, look at anything kind of less than 2 million. We always are wondering if they've found product market fit.

Right.

And so this kind of suggests that this is on average. Right. But a number of these companies probably are having a hard time with product market.

And what we were talking about earlier IS battery sees 5,000 pitches a year. They only invest in 20 or 25 a year. So you get a lot of exposure to the broad set of customers. And when we showed this split by pre series A and series A, and you're seeing growth rates at 20%, like, is everybody having that issue?

No.

I mean, that's a good question. So the question is, for folks familiar with T2D3, my partner Neera Jagger, walking the phrase many years ago, eight years ago. Now, what we see is that some of the most successful Companies follow the T2D3 path, which is Triple.

Triple.

Once you hit 2 million of revenue, you found the product market fit and you're scaling, you're tripling to 6 to 18 and then doubling after that. During the period of free money that we just came out of the last few years, what we were seeing was actually 5x instead of just a triple. The best companies were actually 5Xing because they were spending for growth.

Right.

We are seeing T2D3. We are funding those companies. So it still does exist even though we don't have free money for growth. So it's still a pretty good model.

Yeah. And for those companies in that Series A, when we were chatting a little bit earlier, you're like, well, if they're really not tracking on that T2D3, they're not going to get past your initial screen. And some of your advice for them about like, take a deep, hard look at your product market fit.

That was my, my big question mark. Looking at the serious Series A here. And again, this is an average across 2,000 companies. So it's kind of hard to pull out. I'm sure there's some really great ones and some that maybe are struggling a bit. But this is quarterly growth. So if you're on that T2D3 path, we should see kind of north of 30% right. On quarterly growth. And it's, I think it's 11% if you look at the actual numbers. And so that's a sign that there's some product market market fit issues.

And so when you and your team, your investment team is looking at these different investments, we talked about there being really, there's so many operating metrics and SaaS metrics, you get overwhelmed with it. But at the end of the day, in this situation where there's a recession in the tech, like what are the three things that you're looking at and how do you think about the priority?

Yeah, so the beauty of SaaS of the model is that there are so many metrics, as you said, that you can compare, used to compare and compare, contrast across companies. It's really hard to pick just three. But we're looking as investors at all of these metrics as signals. Right. First for product market fit, partnered with all of our market research and qualitative analysis that we do. And then finally, as once we know that product market fit is there, you know, do they, do you have the metrics for scale to become a sizable, profitable company? We look at unit economics. So it's hard to boil everything that we look at down to three core ones. But I'd say these are kind of fundamentally, I've been doing this for 17 years, like Randy said, and these are the ones that persist and really are predictor of long term success. You know, I think everybody knows that the. Oh, we have all of them as.

Ones, but all of them are all ranked equally important.

You know, in this period, period of free money that we're just coming out of air. Our growth rate was by far the biggest, the one that everybody really focused on, the one that valuations were being based on. I would put that as three. That's still a very big metric that we focus on. It's the number one predictor of product market fit in the early stages. As long as you have good unit economics.

Right.

And you're not just giving your product away, which a lot of companies were actually doing interestingly. So that's still a really big one that we focus on. The next, I'd say the burn rate efficiency. I love this metric because it encapsulates not just your growth, what you're spending on growth, but actually your full unit economics. Right. You're going to have different burn rate efficiencies based on your scale. And so you would, you know, smaller companies companies because you have more fixed costs early on, you're going to have a higher burn rate. We like to see generally something less than 1.5. The best that I've ever seen is a vertical SaaS company that built $120 million ARR business on just $2 million of cash. Awesome company. But that gives you a sense it can be done efficiently. And then finally, and we just heard from the return zero folks, gross retention rate. This is probably the best predictor of a successful long term business over time and really the highest correlation for valuation. If you look at the public markets as well, that's true. So we focus a lot of time on gross retention rate. It helps us determine if you have a need to have versus just a nice to have product. We generally kind of good here would be 90% plus great would be 95% plus. That's really for mission critical applications, ERP type products. But anything less than 90%, it doesn't mean that, you know, that's not something that's investable. It just really makes us kind of peel back the onion and understand what's going on there. Like you know what Churn zero was saying, do you have customer success issues or is it a product issue? And so we're going to spend a lot of time because less than 90% you start to get that leaky bucket when you scale. That really doesn't help you grow.

Yeah, just building on that, at our last board meeting we were sitting around, we were talking about potential partners that we might want to get closer to. And Chelsea and the other chairman of the board said, Randy, if they're less than 92% I've got a red flag. And you got to prove why this is a great company to be looking at. It's like 92. I thought we were talking about 90. And he said no, no, no, because you're going to dig in and you're going to find some stuff. So I think really what's interesting both in terms of acquisition but also for funding in this environment that 92%, if you don't have it. You got to go look at the product market fit. You got to look how you take care of your customers like Yuman and team talked about. The other metric I would just offer is on this burn rate efficiency. This was new to me. The last company I ran and sold it was VC backed top syndicate and it was all about growth. And burn was like, I don't know, go spend more money, right? Working with battery, they brought this discipline of look, if you're not going to be profitable, like what is your metric here? How are you doing on your burn? And I thought it was a really great way to net it out in terms of what are you spending and what are you getting for it. So again, in this day and age.

Of efficient growth, that's where it's at.

The things have changed. So I would say from the winners, the winners at Battery in Chelsea C there are really three things to think about. One is prove you have product market fit. This is a focus on net ARR growth rate. Are people willing to buy what you've got, you're actually paying money for it and it works on a unit cost economic basis. Number two is embrace discipline growth on the way to weather the downturn. And this is all about burn rate efficiency growth at all costs, discipline growth. And the third thing is understand retaining customers is the ultimate mark of a sustainable business. You heard churn0 talk about it, you hear us talk about it, everybody out there is going to talk about gross retention. And so that's it, that's our 10 minutes. We've got, we got the Maxio Institute growth report people in this really cool blue shirt can hand out to you and then written about Investor metrics on LinkedIn. If you wanted to connect neck with me and read more about how battery approaches their investments and how they manage people like me. Thank you all. Have a great day.

Foreign.

Please welcome to the stage carol howley, cmo at exclaimer.

Hi everyone. Thank you very much. My name is Carol Howley, I'm with a company called Exclaimer. We're an email signature software solution and I'm here today to talk to you about demand generation strategies that we've been employing to help us scale our business. So what I'm going to go through is why demand generation is a really great investment for your business. What you really should prioritize based on the stage of business that you're actually at and what you could do more of right now. So I'm just going to go through what works for us. We're at a business exclaim is just about to hit about 50 million ARR. Over the last year, we had hit product market fit, but we had a huge amount of investment to do on a marketing perspective to get ourselves in a position where we're able to scale the business. We didn't have a lot of marketing channels, we had some very basic levels, but we weren't able to scale, so. So we really had to invest a huge amount and put a lot of effort in to make sure that we could scale at pace so that we're able to keep going. So first I want to go through a couple of trends that I've found that have really influenced my strategy and my thinking that I've taken to the team. First of all, the B2B buying journey is getting more and more complex every single day. A lot of that journey has also been done within the arenas where you can't necessarily track or actually. So all of that journey's happening. And we had a recent amazing webinar with Chili Piper where we went through the dark social and how many touch points you'll actually see a buyer go through before they even come into your arena and you can track and see them. So it's getting increasingly complex for us as a marketer to be able to track all these touch points. We've also seen an amazingly challenging year in terms of tech layoffs in our industries, but also within investment on portfolio portfolios, looking for companies that have sustainable, durable pipeline growth, so companies that are able to prove time after time they're able to grow businesses. So at the back of that, I said to my team this year and for our marketing campaign, we need to focus on the need to work smarter, not necessarily harder. So it's not necessarily about investing more and doing more, it's about making sure your investments really pay off and that everything links together. Because a lot of people, especially when we're talking, talking to marketers, have less budget, they have less people, and they've got the huge challenge of doing more with less. So that's why we've really focused everything around this. So within that, I wanted to place our bets as a team. And there were four key strategic bets that I was really keen on us focusing on. First of all, we wanted to amplify the demand we already had. We had a bit of content, we had a reasonable engine, but not anything that could scale. We had some PPC and some paid capabilities, capabilities in search, but nothing beyond that. So we needed to accelerate. I wanted to build a lot of Trust because brand for us is a massive opportunity to scale the business and I wanted us to focus finally on conversion. So I'll just quickly, as I've only got 10 minutes, go through a few of these. In terms of amplifying demand, we wanted to evolve our content strategy which was at a very basic level beyond the table stakes areas that we were in. So we're really fortunate to be the of part part of Insight Partners portfolio. And within that we get access to some amazing research they've been doing. This research is taken from a recent demand gen report that they've just published. So within this you're able to see that actually as you're a smaller stage company, you'll start investing off in things that really drive SEO. As you're wanting to grow the business, you want to make sure that you're hitting at every opportunity. But as you get higher up the stages you've actually that's kind of table stakes. Everyone's doing that, everyone's in invested. So you need to start thinking about the other opportunities you can take as a business and how you start to really amplify that demand. So the best companies that are out there at our size are publishing their thought leadership consistently, all the time. They're not wavering, they're always publishing, they're always on. They're also looking at other opportunities, things like visual trials, demos, tutorials, APIs. So you need to be on top of this. It's about surrounding everyone within your portfolio, everyone within your, your audience with consistent messaging at every single touch point where they're searching for you. So you have to amplify as you go upscale the next part. As I mentioned, we were really invested within paid search, but we weren't able to do anything else. We weren't invested in paid social, any of the other areas opportunity. So what we started to do was to make sure we publish consistent, relevant messaging across every single. So if we're doing a paid campaign, it's represented within social, it's in our pr, it's through our emails and it lands on our website. Everything looks consistent on brand and it has the same messaging to the ICP relevant to what they're searching for. So it's all linked together. You're really surrounding people across every channel to make sure that you're really hitting home with your messaging. We've also started working recently with intent and purchased 6Sense, which means that we're doing a very version of ABM. So I think for ABM it's different in every single company. And every single team. But for us we're doing ABM light, I would say, which means we're a very high average, high volume but low average selling price. So we don't want to go on massive enterprise scale. But what I want to do, because my TAM is actually everybody, I want to target the companies that are actually in market right now. And that means I can save my money for other opportunities, but it also means I can be really targeted, really focused and create campaigns to specific verticals but also specific Personas. So I really focus. And a really top tip if you are starting out with six Sense is to do a number of different tests on a really broad area but also narrow down onto different verticals. But what we've really focused on is the consideration through to purchase stage, which means I use my organic content to bring people into the market. I can then track them because I've got tracking across all the areas and I can see when they're in market and really start to target the Personas that are relevant to me and bring them through with different messaging to take them through the funnel that's matched with the sales team and also BDR outreach as well. The final area where we've really seen a massive impact and I think a lot of people don't always focus on. So obviously your brand has to lead the way. You have to really rely on it. It has to be consistent across every channel and really stand out. But what we decided last leveraging is review sites. So for us, we're not really big enough to have an analyst relationship. We're not an enterprise company. But we found huge success in leveraging G2, Capterra and Trustpilot as a number of review sites. So as you can see here from a year's worth of investment with G2, we encourage all our customers to give us reviews. We respond to all the reviews, we talk about them, we really, really engage with our customers to make sure they feel valued, that we're really reaching them all the time. And we've gone up to the top stage of the G2 results. But the best thing about this is you can also plug this into all your intent engines so that then you can do tracking when people are searching for you, you can have alerts and all of that feeds into your demand gen engine. So you're really starting to layer it on. So as well as there, you're on sort of review sites, you're on searches. It gives you that amazing opportunity. And also people trust other people. They don't necessarily trust you. I know that most people don't want to talk to me or necessarily our sales team, but if they see other people saying, hey, this product's amazing, it's actually really good, it genuinely works, then they're more likely to look at that and start searching as well and come into our arena and want to talk to us. The final thing is, and you may say conversion is a sales problem, but unfortunately, as revenue marketers, I think we all have to focus on conversion. Everything I do is completely pointless if the sales team, if we can't convert on our site, if we can't convert through the funnel. So the real big thing that we always say is no leads ever left behind, we need to focus on conversion at every single point of the funnel. We need to constantly look for the red and the problems and make sure we focus. So for me, this is almost the biggest and most important thing. You can do everything else, but if you can't convert, you're completely stuck. We've had five key areas that we wanted to focus on in conversion and I was really inspired by Jalal Rezaia's quote, where there is so much money that's wasted if you don't focus on converting your marketing efforts. So we've really invested in on site personalization and conversion rate optimization on our site. So when people come, they can get different experiences depending who they are. We've done obviously abm, which is probably, as I said, a bit more ABM light because of the way we're doing it. That suits our journey. At this time, we've got an amazing visual trial, so we've built our own trial that takes people through just a visual encounter of what our product's like if they're not quite ready for a demo, which has shown really amazing conversion. We've got a fantastic email nurture that we're building, testing, refining every single day. It also ties into our customer success, our sales team, our outreach, our BDR cadences. So we're able to really see improvements across every area and also sales enablement, sales team of people, they've always got things they can learn, they need to know about the new content. You need to educate them, help them work together with everyone else. So we've got a massive sales enablement program that's really starting to show amazing results for us that we're really pleased with. And working really in conjunction with our sales and CS team enables us to kind of have that full experience, because ultimately a buyer comes into your audience and they don't care that you're a marketing team or the sales team, they care that they have an amazing experience that's completely seamless across every touch point. And then finally, which I think I'm just going to hit my timeline in terms of key takeaways, the things that we're really finding working out is to amplify that demand through your really engaging content. That content engine is like the baseline of all pipeline generation. You then need to lay your paid digital to accelerate traction. You start off with paid search. It's the best investment initially but really start start to layer on all the different opportunities such as paid social and all the other areas you could invest in. Make sure you think of opportunities to really focus on that brand consistent messaging. Every single touch point looks the same and really kind of stands out to people leveraging trust through review sites. A really great tip for me. There was also a number of other those content areas where you could start to invest a bit more that weren't quite invested in yet and focus on your conversion. If you can't convert what comes in then you're wasting your time with everything else. And also I think it's really important to remember this works necessarily for us, but it might not work for the next company or the next stage or a different product or a different area. So no one playbook ever kind of scales to another company. But it's really. Well, I find it really exciting to learn from other people and apply different things as you go. But I think there's a great quote from Jason Lemkin obviously as it's Esther, but if you need need to play to your strengths, if it doesn't work you need to pivot, test and explore. So they're my tips for kind of leveraging demand gen. And thank you everyone for your time. Just hit on the nose. Sam sa.