The CEO's Role in Marketing How to Hustle, Build Momentum, Sell Your Company and Yourself

Please welcome stacey epstein, CEO of zynq, previously chief marketing officer at servicemax and vice president of global communications at successfactors.

Thank you. Hello, everybody. I've been really excited about this session today because I get to speak about a topic that's really close to my heart and important to me, and that's marketing. And I'm going to try to convince you guys that it should be close to your heart and important to you too. So before we move forward, let me bring out my panel. Come on out, panel. We have Kathryn Minshew from the Muse and Greg Schott from Mulesoft and Dave Kellogg from Post Analytics. Hello, panel. So I told them, instead of me trying to remember all of the great things about their background, I'm going to have them introduce themselves to you. But I want you guys to focus a little bit on marketing. Each of you has a little bit of marketing in your background. So tell us about yourself.

Okay, I'll go first. So my name is Dave Kellogg. I'm excited about the panel because I have 10 years on both sides of the marketing line. So I've been a CEO for 10 years. Six years at MarkLogic, a enterprise NoSQL company. Now four years at Host Analytics, a enterprise performance management financial apps company. So I've been 10 years as CEO looking at marketing from this side. And prior to that, I was nine years of Chief Marketing Officer at Business Objects as we grew the company from 30 million to a billion in revenue. So I like to think I can see both sides of the issue here.

Great.

Awesome. Yeah. I'm Catherine Minshew, founder and CEO of the Museum, and I came to starting my company with very little marketing background initially, but sort of dove in face first, as it were, I'd say. I feel like I learned a lot of things the hard way. We now have over 50 million people every year who use the Muse. Most of it is organic traffic. So I've spent a lot of time figuring out pr, content marketing, various forms of guerrilla marketing to help build the early stage. And then now I've got a great marketing team that takes the lead.

Great.

Thank you, Greg.

I'm Greg Schott. I'm the CEO of Mulesoft, and I was a marketing VP CMO three different times beforehand. Three startups, a couple of them went through ipo, and so I had quite a bit of marketing background coming in. And then I've been CEO at Mulesoft now for eight years. My current VP of marketing has been amazing. So it's been a great ride Working together with him. But I've got a lot of marketing background before this.

Great, thanks. So you guys heard I'm now a CEO, and you notice the panel is full of CEOs. I feel like every week I get a CEO sent to me from one of our investors or someone that I meet that says, I want to talk about marketing. It's this black box. I don't understand it. I don't really even know if I should do it and if I should do it, how do I go about it and is it really that important? And then I was in the audience earlier and I heard the Trello founder talking about how in the early days, they really just didn't have that marketing muscle and they didn't really know to focus on it, and yet they were still really pretty successful as we saw their big acquisition news. So my question to the panel, and I'll let you guys decide who wants to go first, is, is it really that important as a startup, as you're growing, should you really double down and focus on marketing or can you get away without it?

I'm happy to kick it off. I think marketing has been, I would say, critical to our success. I do think it depends on the type of company that you have. For us, we built the Muse to be a marketplace, and so we needed to have that critical mass of users. And there's a lot of companies. We did Y Combinator and a lot of companies in our batch, they'd launch on TechCrunch or on Hacker News and say, okay, good, I'm done. I finished. And we found that that was a pretty limiting way to think about marketing, especially early stage, because you only get people who are at that one part of that one community. So we used content really effectively in the early days to essentially get the message out about what we were doing. So in our case, because we have a job searching career platform, we found that publishing great career content, both on our site, but also through syndicated partners, it was a really effective way to build that early mass. And we actually had 20,000 people use the Muse the first month that we launched, 26,000 the second, 70,000 the third. And we've been off to the races ever since.

And you think that was largely because of marketing?

I do. And I think it was for us, not thinking about marketing as an appendage or something that sits outside of the core, but saying for us to have a product that resonates, we need to have a diverse set of people use it, and we need those people to find it. In the most organic and authentic ways possible. And so we built some of the concepts of marketing into the company and the product itself from day one.

Great.

Yeah, I would just say I think about marketing as being about as critical as it gets. And I think if you go into a company where they're not thinking about marketing as being important, maybe marketing as a function, they may not be thinking that way, but somebody is. In a successful company, somebody is doing the marketing. And by that I mean they're doing the positioning, they're figuring out the product market fit. And so when I think about the organization of a company, I think of kind of three main pillars. One being the product leadership, one being the marketing leadership, and the other being the field and sales leadership. And everybody else, the CEO, the finance, recruiting, hr, everybody else is really in support of those three functions. I. I think about, if you think about marketing as an appendage, you're not thinking about as really at the center of everything. It's the intersection between your products and your field organization. And then if you think about the definition of what marketing is, it's really many more things than just demand gen. So if you think about it very broadly, marketing is your web presence, your analyst relations, your public relations, your digital demand gen, your event space marketing, your product marketing. I mean, it's a very broad job, very broad role for any company and really for the leader in that organization.

Yeah, I just echo the sentiment that marketing is super important. It's not something to leave to later in my mind at all. It's a competency you want to develop earlier rather than later. And I would say that with most SaaS companies, I mean, the role of marketing has really changed over the last 10 years and we are increasingly reliant in a kind of velocity sales model for marketing to fill the pipeline. So tactically, marketing is very important in that regard. And then strategically, for the reasons Greg talked about, positioning the company, thought leadership. So yeah, it's not something to put on the back burner.

So having a background As a CMO, I've worked for different kinds of CEOs that take a different role in participating in marketing. I work directly for lars Dallegard at SuccessFactors, who was a very dynamic, charismatic presence and we leveraged that a lot. And I've worked for other CEOs that are a little bit more introverted, maybe more product focused, and they play a different role. And as a marketer, you kind of have to work with that. So as a CEO, what do you think? Give some advice as A CEO. What role do you think the CEO should play in the marketing strategy and the marketing execution?

So I'll take that one. I think it's a. Unfortunately, it's an it depends kind of answer. So it really depends on what your organization needs and where. If you have somebody who's running marketing, so if you have a VP of marketing or cmo, it's what their strengths and weaknesses are. And myself and our VP of marketing, we just have this. I fill in gaps that he has and vice versa. But I think about it as something that the CEO gets involved where they need to. The one place I don't think you can abdicate to anybody in the organization is around the overall positioning of the company and how you want the company to be perceived, the direction it's going. And usually a lot of your positioning will actually drive a lot of your product direction and everything else. So there, I think you have to take full ownership of it and then work with the person in marketing to help create the messaging around that.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that, you know, and this is one of the challenges of being a CEO, especially of a startup, is that, you know, you've got a company that demands a lot of different things and has a lot of different needs, and you have to figure out where are you best equipped to fill that need and where should you find somebody to bring in. And so I do agree, though, that that positioning question is really important. And for us, it's also been interesting, something that I've been more involved in recently, you know, for different segments, we've also found that different levels of involvement is important. So as we're selling into, you know, our B2B side of the business, I have to be very involved there, go to a lot of meetings, really think about the positioning. Whereas when the consumer side of our business got to a certain point, it was easier for me to take a step back and say, we've got fantastic people who are really owning different channels, and I can kind of dip in when I'm needed but not be quite so much up to the elbows in the details.

So I come at this from two angles. One, as a marketeer, you need to kind of play the hand you're dealt in terms of your CEO. So if you've got a dynamic, charismatic CEO, get them out there, put them on stage. If you've got an introvert, work with that, but don't try and twist them into something they're not, because you'll invariably have very awkward moments. The other thing I'd say is interesting enough. I remember back when I was a CMO and I'd interview for CMO jobs, one of the patterns I noticed was some big percentage of the time I'd leave the interview going, you guys don't need a cmo, you need a CEO. Right? You're asking the CMO to position the company, determine strategy, product, market fit. I'm like, what does the CEO do here? So I think it's important to, as a marketeer, if you're looking at companies, to think about that because the CEO very much should be doing those things.

I think it's, if I can just, I think it's a great point on don't make, and I've had it happen to me before, don't try. If you're a CEO, don't have them try and make you do something that's unnatural and vice versa. If you're in marketing, don't push the CEO to go somewhere that's not natural for them. There's some CEOs that are going to be fantastic in the limelight, out in front of everybody, and there's others who are just going to be reluctant. And if you look across many companies, there's Those front facing CEOs, the Marc Benioff's of the world, and then there's a lot of great companies that are run by folks that are more back room. You just have to understand what you've got instead of trying to force square pegs into round holes.

Yeah, definitely agree. So let's stick with positioning for a second. Since you both talked about the importance of the CEO being involved in positioning. And I feel like when you run a company, and especially if you're the founder like you live and breathe what the company is all about, but sometimes translating that into assets or tactics or positioning statements or things that a marketing team needs to create the deck, the pitch, the PR stories is a little more challenging. So how have you guys been effective in taking what you know and believe your company is about and helping the marketing team with what they need to get it in the market. Create a brand, create awareness for your company.

So I mean, I think the most important element here in my opinion is to have what I call a blueprint where you sit down with marketing and you take three to five basic questions and define the answers. So if somebody says, who are we? What do we say? If somebody says, why are we different? What do we say? If somebody says, what are the benefits of using our product? What do we say? And if you just take kind of very simple questions. Because a lot of marketing people try to pretend that, you know, positioning is this black people, black art wizardry. It's not. Positioning happens in the mind of the customer. It's my favorite statement on positioning. Where does it happen? Right here in the mind of the customer. And it's usually about very simple things. Somebody bumps into somebody. Greg, what does Mulesoft do? That answer that question. That's positioning.

Yeah, I mean, I think for me too a lot of it is back to your statement about the customer. It's about that empathy that to who am I selling to and why is this valuable and important to them? And I think a lot of CEOs get so caught up in but the features are so great and I'm going to build this thing that's going to be so good. But they forget that marketing is really about communicating that in a way that the customer says, yes, I want those features, I need them. And so helping yourself answer those questions like Dave brings up, I think is a really valuable exercise.

I think it's also so critical internally as your team grows. And that was a really interesting lesson for me. We're about 135 full time employees and when we were small, we were this tight knit band. Everyone knew why we were here, who was our customer, we talked about it. You could stand up in the middle of the office, share a customer note and suddenly everybody was on the same page. And it was really interesting as we started to get bigger, actually our director of marketing and basically the first marketing hire that we ever made, he came to us when we were probably about 50 people and said, I think we need to really set out a brand book. We'll set out our Personas. And I remember my first reaction was like, we're moving too fast for that right now. We don't have time. And I was wrong. It was so unbelievably useful both externally but also for every single new person that we brought onto the team and that we continue to bring on to set everyone around the same core principles and, and really it also took some of the burden off me having to constantly, and obviously I still do stand up and talk about it, but it's nice to have it in a sort of single format that we can share with new hires, with partners and use internally as well.

I've got an anecdote I'd like to share on this one. So in between MarkLogic and Host Analytics, I spent a year at Salesforce where I was senior vice president and general manager of service cloud and if you look at a great marketing company like Salesforce is, to your point, how do you get a company that large consistent and on message? One of the hardest things I did during my year there was study for the media spokesperson certification exam. And it was like 30 pages of small print. And the test is given with live TV cameras. And if you want to know how you're on message, I mean, you write it all down, you standardize it, and you test on it. And I was very proud of that achievement.

I love that. Yeah, I love to do the elevator pitch where you want it to be short and sweet, but you gotta test it and make sure you're not just talking about the features, you're talking about the value. Right. And then you have to get everybody to do it out on all hands, have everybody get certified on the elevator pitch. And partly because, to me, everybody's a brand ambassador in the company, and partly because it helps you reinforce who you are as a company with your own people, which I think is really powerful. Okay, so last question about kind of positioning, messaging. PR, to me is another big area where CEOs often have a lot of angst. I feel like any agency, like the bottom amount you can pay is 15, 20 grand a month, which for bigger companies is a drop in the bucket. But when you're small and cash is really king, do you. How do you feel about pr? When's the right time to do pr? How involved are you in what the PR team's pitching and saying? General thoughts on pr.

So I think PR can be the least expensive way to market your company. At least expensive advertising you'll ever get. The big question comes in as to whether you're going to use do it internally or you're going to use an agency. And my own personal philosophy, as I've seen over the years, is most companies, when they bring in a marketer, will immediately want to bring an agency in. And then what I've seen, and maybe it's just been my companies and how we've done it or haven't been able to do it. But you will then proceed to churn PR agencies about every 18 months from then on out. And every single new agency will be that bright, shiny object that somehow is going to fix your pr. Gonna have the right person there, and then you'll churn them out 18 months later. Cause you're tired of them churning out people on your account. And you're paying too much money and they don't get it. So I'd be extremely careful with ramping up spend with PR agencies. And I'd think very long and hard about depending on your message and how complicated it is, how much you do internally. It's really important to do it. But that internal versus outsourced is a big decision. And I'm a fan for outsourced. Certainly for the more, I mean for insourced, certainly for the more complex stories, as you get to simpler stories, then you can hire people that can spin up quickly externally really hard when it's a complex story.

Yeah, I would agree with that. The one exception, and this was really interesting for us, was industry specific pr. So initially I did all the PR at the Muse. I thought it was really fun. And I also, I found early on that it was really almost interesting for me to talk to people who were reporters or in the media, understand what they were working on, see if I could help them. And those relationships over time grew into. Once we actually had something worth telling stories about, people coming and asking me to give quotes or to be featured, different things. But the area we could not crack without external help was hr pr. And without getting into too much of the detail, I don't know how many people in this room know a lot about the human resources industry pr. It's not something that you encounter every day. And there's a full suite of media platforms, conferences dedicated around this very specific industry. And breaking into that was incredibly hard. And we tried unsuccessfully for probably 18 months before we finally found an agency that specifically knew that world, worked with them for a finite period of time, and all of a sudden had access to keynote opportunities in front of 700 of our customers. That was really pivotal. And I think for us that was one of the biggest areas where we found it to be really useful to go external.

So building on the prior answers, PR is all about the audience first and foremost, as you're saying. And your standard PR firm is going to know really well how to talk to what I call the digiratai, right, The Silicon Valley community broadly. So if you're selling to tech, they're very useful. But the more you're picking off, like I ran a company where we sold to media and federal government. At Host analytics, we sell to the VP of financial planning and analysis like super targeted titles. The less a general purpose PR firm will actually help you in terms of generating leads. It might help you raise money by generating awareness in this community. But overall, I think a PR, like a gym membership, right, Whether or not you use it, they're going to charge you that retainer every month. So it can be the cheapest way to market your company, or it can be the most expensive if you don't drive them. And like Greg, I'm actually a believer, especially if you're at relatively small scale, to try and avoid that 15k a month retainer and instead use contractors, specialize in certain things. Case study writers, PR writers, analyst relation contractors. You can find these people and for maybe less than 10, you can kind of cobble together some specialists who will do a better job for you and work on exactly what you want to work on.

Yeah, it's a great point. I think. Pr. To start pr, you need to have customers that are willing to talk to reporters. And unless if you're too small and you don't have that yet, you're going to have a really hard time getting reporters to about talk. Take interest. Reporters get really tired of talking to CEOs that are talking about the features of their product. They want to talk to Coca Cola or it doesn't even have to be a name brand. But I feel like you're not going to get your money's worth unless you can put customers forward. The second thing for me with PR is that if you don't have somebody in your company that really understands how to manage and work with the agency, you're not going to get your money's worth unless you're willing to do it yourself. Right. Because the PR agency, they only know so much about your company. I mean, back to Greg's point about having it in house. When they're in house, they're part of like they were in that elevator pitch exercise. They know the messaging, they know what's coming in the product. And it's really hard to translate that to a PR agency without at least somebody who really understands that process. That's my feelings on pr. So let's move to content. We'll start with you, Dave, because you're a pretty active blogger and you're pretty vocal out there. And I do think, especially when you have a PR agency, a lot of times people will want to ghost write articles for you. What's your approach to that? Does everything come from you? How do you decide what you're going to write? What's the cadence? How do you prioritize that over all the other things you have to do as a CEO?

Sure. So I write a blog called kelblog K E L L Blog, and it's pretty well read in Silicon Valley. And I started it just as a passion, really. There were just a bunch of topics I wanted to share. And I do write it myself. I think some CEOs try to do ghostwritten blogs, and I wouldn't recommend that. I mean, if you want to have a corporate blog, have a corporate blog and have PR people write it and product managers write it. But if you want to have your own blog, have your own blog. And that means, in my opinion, you should write it yourself. And most of the times, personally, I just write about stuff I'm really interested in. I've done a lot of posts on SaaS churn rates, because it turns out when you're raising money, people care a lot about Churn, as they should. But, man, when you dig in the details, no two people count it the same way. And there's a lot of different ways to count it. And that just inherently interested me. So I did a deep dive on it and started writing about it partially so I could answer VCs. When they asked me, how do we calculate Churn? I'm like, go read my post. So I think for me, I don't write that much for the finance audience, and my audience is actually much more digitized than finance. One of the things I've been trying to figure out is how to actually use it to generate leads as opposed to just kind of awareness for the company. So, other thoughts?

Yeah, I was going to say, I think exactly what you ended with there, which is, what's the purpose of the content? Because content can be incredibly valuable. It can be a total flop. And I think making sure that the outcomes that you're looking for are clearly stated in advance. So for us, I do a little bit of writing on behalf of the Muse. But early on we realized that one of the biggest challenges in building a marketplace is getting those early adopters on both sides. And so since we want to tackle career, which is a space in which people are looking for a lot of advice, we said, well, let's start out by creating a lot of really high quality career content and build up one side of the marketplace before we introduce jobs and companies on the other side. And so we actually started by tapping people that were interested in writing. It's actually funny, we had a little button on the site very early on that said, get involved. And when you clicked it, it said, we're seeking contributors. Do you have career expertise? Fill out a little bit about yourself, what you'd write about. And we got to a point where we had 200 people a week reaching out and saying, I want to write for the Muse, I want to contribute content. And so we were able to pick the absolute kind of top 2 to 5% and create a very steady flow of content that brought in individual users. We started experimenting to do the same thing with the B2B side, the HR user. That's been pretty interesting as well. But I think for us it was, it was not ghostwriting, but it was finding different people with points of view and then giving them a platform worth having. One of the things that I, that I saw to know that it was working is people would start putting on their LinkedIn. I'm a contributor to the museum right under their full time job title. And that was a sign for me that we were giving just as much value as we were receiving from people who were contributing content to the platform.

Yeah, for us we started, we have open source roots, so we had developers writing for developers and that was really the beginning of all of our content creation. And now we're at a scale where we have a large content marketing team inside of marketing that does a lot of our demand gen work and creates a lot of the content. For myself, I've learned the past few months that tweeting actually does something. So I'm up to 14, I think I've got 14 followers now and 12 of them are family members.

I tweeted you today.

What's that?

I tweeted you today.

There you go.

You didn't retweet it. Tweeted that 15.

I'm not sure if you have to retweet it.

Woo hoo.

So it hasn't been something. I mean I've done some contributed articles, a little bit of blogging here and there, but for the, the most part it's been the marketing team as well as both internal developers as well as a lot of our external developers that contribute to our forums.

I'll add one other quick thing which is we've had a lot of success out of figuring out when a platform is about to have an inflection point and then doing our best to be part of that. And one example I'll Give is when LinkedIn first rolled out their influencer program. I was like, this is really interesting. And essentially found I asked my network for multiple introductions to figure out who's behind it and said look, I'd love to contribute content we can write about workplace and career topics. Ended up getting tapped in the second sort of wave and within two weeks had over 100,000 followers on that platform. Now I think usually a month or two later you sort of have missed that wave. Like I missed it for Twitter. But if you can find a platform that's opening something new or starting to have an imbalance between content producers and content consumers, it's often an easy way to build an initial audience, which you can then grow sort of more linearly over time.

Interesting. All right, so we have about six minutes left. I have two more topics I really want to get to. One which I think is crucial for marketing is sales and marketing and sales alignment. So my personal philosophy is that marketing serves sales. Every. Every department in the company should be focused on driving revenue, especially marketing and marketing should be measured on revenue. And that takes sales and marketing alignment. What is. How do you guys feel about sales and marketing alignment?

Do you.

Do you force it? Do you have it? How important do you think it is?

Yeah, there's nothing more important from a marketing standpoint. You have to have. The marketing leadership has to get up in the morning thinking about how they're going to go drive revenue for your company full stop. And the biggest challenge sometimes with marketing is teams in marketing often want to. We call them internally, we call them activity fields. They want to generate activity fields. They want to talk about 10,000 leads. They want to talk about some project, some event that happened. And you have to always make sure that they're asking the question, the next kind of, why would we do that? And then, because I get 10,000 leads, and you say, well, why are those valuable leads? Well, I don't know. And then you got to find out what happens when you send those 10,000 bad leads over to the sales organization and they just kind of dump them all on the floor and think they're all useless. It's about having a marketing organization that every morning is trying to figure out how are we gonna drive more revenue. That's what we're all there for, ultimately. So, yeah, it's critical. And it's the orientation, I think, of the leadership and the marketing team that determines that.

You know, the number one cause of death for a chief marketing officer is the chief revenue officer. Right? So you have to make sure those two people are aligned and they get along. And, you know, I started my career in technology on the tech side, but I moved in marketing pretty early. And when I was a young product manager, we had a cmo, and he came in and he said, marketing exists to make sales easier. That's why we're here. And it kind of stuck with me. And this is like more than two decades ago, and just I went from product manager to CMO with that. That is my kind of north star. Like, why Are we here? We're here to make sales easier. And we can do that by providing leads or generating opportunities. We can do that by positioning the product. We can do that with competitive tools. There's a lot of different ways we can do that, but everything we do is about making sales easier.

Yeah.

I think for me, one of the ways I kind of force that into the thinking of the company is by having a demand gen model. I mean, back to your point about what are the leads for? The model starts with the bookings target. And then from the bookings target, you work down the spreadsheet on, well, how much pipeline do I need to hit that bookings target? Well, how many leads do I need to create that much pipeline? And you look at conversion rates. And that is a process that's done with sales and marketing together. And it's a way to force through the organization, the marketing organization. We're here to generate bookings, not leads, not even pipeline, but bookings. And that forces it into the minds of the marketers. I also, I always judged my team partially as a CMO based on is the sales team coming to me and telling me that Katherine's doing an awesome job for them? Because that's what I want to know. I don't want to know that she threw a great event or she did a great campaign. I want to know that she helped someone close a deal. So I agree. It's a philosophy in the organization.

That tool is just such a powerful tool to build and drive alignment in the organization. Because if you leave marketing alone to make it by themself, they might come back. For example, this happened at my company. They came back with a model that just said, deal size times ASP equals number of deals needed. You go, okay. Then you work through the funnel. You go, wait a minute. How many sales forces do we have? Well, we have corporate, mid market enterprise. Well, what are the ASPs? Well, they're all different. Well, wait a minute. Shouldn't the model model those different ASPs because they have different number of deals? Right. And then you kind of. Oh, and you get to drive alignment through creating that. A big believer in the model.

I have so many more questions, but I'll try to close with this last one. Jason Lemkin and I were joking backstage that he said, how do you spell marketing backwards? It's a money pit.

Right.

And then he said, oh, I'm being facetious, when I told him I was going to repeat it on stage. But I do think a lot of CEOs think, well, God, I'm just throwing money at this department and I'm not even sure what I'm getting for it. How do you guys decide how much money to allocate to a marketing team who's always asking for more money? Hard question.

I think, yeah, I can start. I think that for me at the views we differentiate between things that we should see short term results and long term bets. And so within the short term results, we're constantly testing and refining what does a lead cost us across a variety of different channels. What's the quality? When we're looking at users, it's what's the action they're taking. And again, over a couple of weeks, a couple of months, how quality is that individual? We also dedicate some money to long term bets and these are things that we may not be able to track or measure immediately, but we are very clear about what money is in the short term payoff and what money and what budget is in the long term. And it's a reasonable amount. Where you say I believe that this may succeed, but I don't necessarily need to see the results in 30 days.

Great.

I would say I think so much of it depends on who's leading marketing for you. If you have the right kind of person in that chair. They are not coming saying I need more to be effective. They're looking at the ROI of everything that they do, which is what we have. We have somebody who thinks that way and they're thinking about the ROI and they're making trade offs every time and they may come and say, hey, if I get two more million dollars next year, I think I can deliver this much more for the organization. Let's talk about that. But you need that kind of an orientation for the leader. And I know I keep getting back to that, but I do think it makes it so much easier than having somebody who's just give me more and I'll do more. It has to be with X amount or more. I can give you Y amount in revenue off the back of that. And frankly, I mean we've had somebody who I actually have had to kind of push to spend more money in certain areas. We put up billboards on 101, which was not something that had a real clear ROI. But for candidate marketing and for partner marketing and other things, which hard to really show the near term ROI on it, it was something that made sense, but it wasn't something that he was naturally gravitating toward.

Just agree with all the panelists. The last thing I'd add is just industry benchmarks are really useful. Right. Just to see what other people are spending as a percent of revenue and a percent of ARR more importantly. And then finally, that demand gen model we talked about is a great way to generate the demand gen budget.

Yep. Well, thank you all for being interested in this topic. And thank you to the panel. It was a great session.

Thank you.

Thank you.