The D&I metrics you must track w/ Notion VC Partner Itxaso del Palacio & Talent Dir Maddy Cross

Thank you for joining our session this morning. We are excited to introduce and to welcome Achaso del Palacio and Maddie Cross from Notion Capital. They're going to be talking about which D and I initiatives really work, the metrics you should be tracking. Ladies, thank you so much for joining us. Take it away.

Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for joining. As mentioned, I'm Maddie Cross. I'm talent Director at Notion Capital and I'm here with my colleague, Achaso.

Yeah, hello. Good afternoon from London. Now, I know it's a very early morning in California at the moment, but it's great to have you all here. Maybe we can start from a quick introduction about ourselves and Notion too. So I'm basically a partner at notion. I joined two years ago. I was at Microsoft running Microsoft Ventures M12 in Europe before. And prior to that, I've done anything that you can think of around tech. I'm an engineer, so I worked for Daimler, big car manufacturer. Tried to build my own company too, in the software space. And I also worked in academia because I do have a PhD in venture capital, in fact. And so I've been teaching at Imperial College and University College London here. And, Mari, do you want to introduce yourself?

Yeah, I will. So I'm also an engineer. We're the team of women engineers over at Notion Capital, and so I'm talent director. So my primary remit is really to help founders that we're invested in with anything to do with HR leadership. And obviously the diversity and inclusion topic falls kind of squarely in my remit. But one thing I should say before we start the presentation is that we are absolutely not experts in this. It's something we've been looking at over the last few months. But if anyone who's watching this has stuff to add or wants to make suggestions, please do. We are fully open to learning more. So it's been an interesting one for us to pull together as well, because we've spent quite a lot of time looking at it to get this presentation to where it is now. But very open to more information from anyone who's watching.

Absolutely, absolutely. And please join us asking questions and any comments that you have, just write them on the chat and we will try to moderate. But just as a quick introduction, as a vc, we've been paying more and more attention to this topic because I think everybody has heard before that diverse teams are more successful. Right. And we've seen a lot of numbers in the market. And so we would like to discuss here which of the initiatives really work but maybe, Marie, if we can move to the next slide. To the next one, probably. I was going to mention that we've done a couple of analyses at Notion and we basically found a really clear correlation between the diversity, diverse teams and success companies. And I think, Mari, you can comment maybe on the unicorn research that you run a couple of the numbers if you want.

Sure, I will. So I'll move on to the next slide. Actually, when I talk through the. That, Sorry, I'm having some problems with my slides. This is the next slide. So as Achaso mentioned, we've done some research into how diversity is related to outcome of early stage businesses. And the main thing to talk about here is that this is just a bit of background on it, but the main topic of this presentation will be very much which diversity and inclusion initiatives are related to high outcomes. Because I think at this point in the dialogue within the industry we, we're generally finding that there's so much research now that links high outcomes to diverse teams that the question has kind of moved on to like, okay, so we know that diversity and inclusion is really important, but how do we actually do it? So we're just going to kick off with a couple of bits around the first point, which is how high outcomes are related to diversity. And then we'll get into the main body of the presentation which is like, which things should you be doing to maximize your diversity and inclusion? So this slide is basically from some research I did last year that looked at 50 B2B SaaS, unicorns and 50 B2B SaaS,. Companies that had never been valued at more than $100 million. So still very successful companies, but not in the coveted unicorn kind of group. And within those 100 companies, one of the things that I looked at was where leaders of those companies had been to university or if they had been to university at all. And what you can see here is one of the graphs from that presentation, that research that I did. And what this shows is on the left that 100% of the unicorns in the data set, so every single one of the 50 had at least someone in a leadership position who'd been to a top 50 undergraduate university. But more importantly than that, also just under 80%. So 78% of unicorns in the group had at least someone in the leadership team who had not been to university at all. Whereas in the control group, which is in gray here and here, those numbers were a lot lower. So what we're really seeing is that unicorns, that is companies that were very Successful had a much higher proportion of people in the team that had been to a great university, but also people that hadn't been to university at all. So you might say that that was a measure of kind of socio economic background in terms of people in the leadership team and unicorns. The most successful companies had the highest level of diversity on that measure. And I'll move on to this side now. Achaso, I don't know if you want to take this one. Oh, you're on mute, I think.

Yes, sorry. Basically there's construction in the building and I didn't want to annoy everyone, so I'm muting the microphone. But basically if we look in fact at the number of women in management team, in leadership teams in companies that are valued below 100 million, those had less women than the unicorns in the leadership team. So this is just another measurement. We were talking about the university background and this one talks a little bit more about women and we see that like basically 21% of the leaders were women in the unicorns. One for the other group it was around the 12%. Right. So I think that's very interesting too.

And then this is the last one we've got on correlation of high outcome with diversity inclusion. Then we'll move into the measures of which diversity and inclusion measures you can take to have to have a positive impact on the diversity inclusion of your team. So essentially this is a look at. This is a very small look at ethnicity and the connection between ethnicity as a measure of diversity and outcome. So in Silicon Valley, the tech company average for African American employees is 3.5. But if you look at just a small selection, I did look at more companies in this, but I included three only just to kind of give you a feel for which companies are doing well at this. Flexport, GitHub and Square all have got double the average in the area at 6%. And that's from a Fortune.com report that you can see the link down there in the bottom left hand corner if you want to look at that after. It's a very interesting piece of research. So we've done that part of the talk. Now we know that DI is super important, but how do we get started with making sure that in our own companies we're doing a good enough job of it? And so this is the first piece of research that we've done. So one of the things I'm doing this year is spending quite a lot of time looking at this research and this is something I found recently. So I basically found the maternity leave policies of every B2B SAS unicorn in the US that I could find online. And then I also found the percentage of leaders in the leadership teams of those unicorns that were female. And I did that based on name recognition for anyone that's wondering and if anyone has any questions about how I did that, please do feel free to message me or ask a question at the end. But basically what you can see here is that if we look at the weeks of fully paid maternity leave along the bottom right hand corner here, and the percentage of leaders that are female, those unicorns, what we can see here is quite a clear correlation that the more weeks of fully paid maternity leave that are on offer, the higher the correlation with percentage of leaders that are female. And when I say leaders, I should say that's VP and CXO and founder as well. So if, if you're a founder of a business or you're an HR leader in a business, what I would say is there is quite clearly a correlation between length of maternity and the percentage of leaders that are female. So whilst I'm not saying that if you have a long maternity leave policy that you will immediately have more women in leadership, it may be the case that there's a connection with those two things in the sense that you might encourage more females to apply to the company or people may be more likely to stay with you and then rise through the ranks into leadership positions. And it's not just the number of women that are in leadership positions that are correlated with more weeks of maternity leave either, it's also how long they stay at the company. So this is the same set of unicorns here. And what you can see here on the, on the, the vertical axis here, the average of tenure of female leaders. So leaders, again is vp, C suite and founders. And this is number of years correlated with the weeks of fully paid maternity leave. So you can see here again, there's a positive correlation with tenure of female leaders and the weeks of maternity leave on offer. And again, it's not to say that if you offer 25 weeks of maternity leave, then the tenure of your average female leadership will be just over two years. It's more to say that there is a correlation there. So if you're wondering how you can encourage females in your organisation to stay with you, then looking at maternity leave as a policy does seem to be something that's related to higher levels of tenure there. But parental leave policies is only kind of one way that you can help out balance the gender divide. But what should you do when it comes to improving ethnic diversity and inclusivity of really all people who for whatever reason have not had the same chance as others to get ahead in their careers in tech. So the way that we're going to approach this part of the presentation is I'm just going to look at three unicorns in particular. So I've got three case studies coming up of these three unicorns that have really great D and I stats and they've got a high proportion of people from underrepresented backgrounds in their whole teams and their leadership teams. And those companies are Slack, Intercom and Appnexus. So the first one, Slack. So Slack's management team is made up of 50% women and in the US 46% of their workforce is not Caucasian. So I'm just going to go through now like a handful of the things that they've done over time to kind of give you an idea of maybe how they've got to having such a great inclusive workforce. So the first one is tools. They've been working with Textio since 2015. Textio launched in 2014. So it's like we're really quick to move on that. And what Texteo does for anyone that's not familiar with it is essentially proofreads job adverts for you to pick up any language that's used that may appeal to male or female readers of that job ad in a way that's kind of gender imbalanced. So for example, if you have a job advert and it says our culture is very aggressive, that may appeal more to a male audience. So Textio will pick that up and suggest some other words for you. So Slack have been working with them for five years. The other thing that they've done since the beginning, I believe, of when the company kind of kicked off hiring at scale blind tests and screening, by which I mean that all personal identifiers are taken out of candidates skills tests and CVs when people are applying for jobs at SAC. So any hiring manager cannot know the gender or the ethnicity or the background of anyone who's applying for a job. And then on top of that, when they do skills tests, they make sure that there is a very clear marking guide for that skills test. So that even if the person who's marking the skills test may be slightly biased because they may have figured out what the person's gender ethnicity is, they still have to justify why they're giving scores on skills tests so that that kind of contains any bias that may have crept into the system. The third thing that they've done extensively is working with external community programs. So the Early Career Accelerator program that supports black and Latin communities and then year up an internship program for underserved young adults. So 70% of the people that have interned with Slack through that program have gone on to be full time employees. And then the last one, which to me I think is the most important one, because one of the things that's come up certainly in our portfolio and when I've spoken to founders of early stage businesses about how to approach this is like when do you start thinking about it? Because it does take resource, it takes time to start thinking about your D and I policies. And the one thing that started, I think that's really important is they started doing this so early. So when they had only 75 employees, they appointed an external consultant. That's from their DNI report back in 2015. So they really hadn't got very far into their journey when they started thinking about this. And it's worth noting that the, the way that they tackled it was by bringing someone in externally. So you don't have to have a full time employee looking at this, but you could maybe contract someone a few days a week to begin looking at it for you so that it's not a huge drain on resources, but you can at least begin to think about how you approach D and I. Moving on to the next slide. So Intercom. So over their first five years after Series A, Intercom had a leadership team that was 25% FEMA and again the Silicon Valley average is about 12%. So that was quite a good number for them with a range of experience of four to 25 years there in the leadership team as well. And three bits of information that I've picked out from the number of different things they've done because I think these three are particularly interesting. The first one is leading by example. So actually the founder CEO making a statement about how they think about D and I with an Intercom. So when Donald Trump banned entry to the US for people from six majority Muslim countries in 2017, the CEO founder of Intercom wrote a blog piece that basically went into detail about how Even if the U.S. constitution, the U.S. government doesn't necessarily support people from these six companies moving to the U.S. they support their Muslim counterparts. And to support them even further, what they said was if you are from one of these six countries and you are planning to move to the US and you can no longer do that, please email us. And the CEO founder gave an email address that linked directly to him, please email us and you can use our retained legal services to help you with an application to move to Dublin instead. Because Intercom, obviously the founders of Intercom are from Ireland originally. And then they went on to say in that blog that if you are from one of those six countries and you want to move to Dublin, our lawyers will help get your work visa. We'll try and find you a job at Intercom if we can, and if we can't, we'll try and find you a job at a company that we know well. If you are successful in moving to Dublin, we will find you a buddy at Intercom to help you get set up in Dublin. So that was straight from the top, straight from the CEO founder making a public statement about how he views diversity and inclusion. The other thing that they've done a really good job of is built in product diversity. And I'll explain a bit about what I mean about that. So Jasmine Friedel, who is director of product design, says she said in an interview, when I look at design, it's about having exactly what you said, different perspectives. So the design team in the London office of Intercom has six different people in it, and each of those six different people is of a different nationality. And then Jasmine's team, which Is in the US is 50% female. So they make sure that their design and product teams are made up of people from all different backgrounds, so that when they are designing and building products, those products will appear, appeal to an array of different people, not just like one subsection of society. And then the last thing that they have done quite extensively is they have employed people with experience in organizations that specifically focus on D and I. So they've recruited people from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, from Girls in Tech, from Girls who could, and from Arbor Education, amongst others. So these are people that have built products and run events and designed policies for companies that specifically focus on inclusion. And now they work at Intercom, working on Intercom products and policies, but coming from organizations that have an amazing track record of doing that. And then the last company I'm going to talk about is AppNexus. So 50% of new hires at manager level and above at AppNexus are female. The leadership team includes people from MIT and also those with no further education at all. So going back to, to the first site I talked about where unicorns have got this high proportion of people that went to top universities and also people that didn't go to university at all. AppNexus have done a really good job of that. And I've picked out here four of the things that they do really well. The first one, setting goals. So within their company wide goal framework, AppNexus have got specific D and I goals such as working with external partners and measuring D and I within their organization. So every quarter, every six months, every year, they always are working towards something that will improve their D and I profile. And that thing is included in the goal framework as all commercial products tech goals are included too. They also appointed really early, so they appointed a Chief people officer only two years after founding the company and that person had a DNI remit as part of their job and they now have a VP of DNI who's dedicated just to looking at this community programs. So they hosted the first ever Girls who Code event back in 2012 and all they did for that was just give up their office space as far as I know, for an evening and a weekend so that girls who could could use that space so completely free of charge. So if you are an early stage founder and you're wondering how you can fit any of this into your budget, then using your office space at a time that is not being used for your staff is great way to start. They also work with Path Forward, Women in Tech New York and Ally Skills Training amongst others. And then within AppNexus they have a number of affinity groups including Black Nexus, outnexus and OI Nexus. So those groups bring together people that work at AppNexus from a similar background so they can support each other and put on events for the wider workforce to educate them on what their community is all about. And then the last thing, Create, don't take, which I think is probably something that's quite personal to me and also I'm assuming to Achaso as well, is that quite often diversity and inclusion can be angled at people that are already in their careers at age sort of 21, 22 plus. But for me, I decided I wanted to be an engineer I think when I was 12, and then I decided that I didn't want to be an engineer when I was 20 because I felt like it was maybe too male dominated, amongst other things, but by that point the engineering kind of world had already lost me and I'm sure many others. And so it can be a bit too late. So one of the things that I think is really worth pointing out here is that when AppNexus hosted girls who Code, they were reaching females as young as nine years old, because girls who Code support networks of girls not only in high school, but also a younger age. And so they were helping to create this diverse talent pool way before that diverse talent pool may ever consider coming to work for them. So they're really, rather than thinking about it just for themselves, they're thinking about the wider industry. If I was nine and I went to an event at AppNexus, it's unlikely that I'm going to be working for them at any point in the next 10 years. But at some point in the future, I might have a better chance of having a career in tech. So I thought that was a really interesting one, that if you want to diversify and you're not investing in the next generation, you're really just taking females or people from different ethnic or gender backgrounds and you're taking them from another organization and putting them into yours without really expanding that pool. So that was just the last one to end on there.

Yeah. Fantastic. So thank you for the three examples. I think Mari spoke a little bit from the companies perspective and I wanted to touch and we wanted to do this talk together because obviously most of you in the audience are founders and you are probably looking at me thinking, okay, great, you are now basically pointing into DNI as something that we should do, but what is the venture community doing in the space? And we know for a fact that we haven't been doing that well so far. The reality is that many funds like Notion, we are not the only one, we've started to pay much more attention to it. And so I think it is important for the companies to work together with us to be able to define what are the elements that we can start working on to basically step up on DNA activities. Right. And so if we go to the next slide, Mari, please. Thanks. So while right now, I think the previous one.

Yeah, sorry, that's the right one, my bad.

So if we look at, at the moment, in the due diligence process, in the evaluation process of the company, we are not rigorously looking at the number of diverse ethnics or gender or studies or whatever in the teams, but we are starting to look at it more and more. So at the moment we've just included a statement on our term sheets that this is an important point for us and the companies that want to take our money should be aligned in such a way that they are willing to look into it and start setting up initiatives that create opportunities for a diverse community. And we are including that from the start from the term sheet because I think it is very important for the companies to understand what is our mindset, what are we trying to do and how are we thinking about it and we should be aligned on that point. So I think that's the initial point that we are doing. We are trying and we've already executed a couple of actions in this space. We are trying to expand the network of areas or groups through which we source deals and we work on deals. So if you look at our website, for example, we started an organization called Included vc and that was over a year and a half ago. And basically we are trying to educate younger next generation of the venture capital community by giving opportunity to become VCs to people that otherwise maybe they wouldn't even think about becoming VCs. Right? And we are talking minorities, more women, refugees, people who have been in jail. And so when we took the first cohort last year with 40 people and we built a consortium of 10 VCs around Europe and so trying to help these people to become investors. And we truly believe that if we increase the diversity within the investor community, we will also contribute to increase the diversity on people who are raising money. So we are executing on that and from Notion Initiative, but we've been working on that with Point 9, with Creatum, with K Fund, with M12, and I was with them in the past. So we had a large number of investors working on that. And we are now doing the selection for the second program on that. And we are also working very closely with an organization called Diversity VC, which was founded maybe three, four years ago in London by the new generation of VCs, some of them female, some of them black. And they run a lot of educational programs for VCs in different communities in London. And I personally, I am, as I said before, I'm an academic too. So personally I do teach at this program and we contribute with our time on mentoring and helping the fellows and the people going through the program on that. And we are also tracking the diversity of our portfolio companies as a point, as an important point for us and as a way to see how our companies are taking this into account and are growing into a diverse community. Right? So we are taking this into account when we look at deal flow, we look at the valuation of the companies. And as I say that if we go to the next slide, VC is probably not the strongest community in this space. So we are still pretty much a female dominated industry, specifically at the partner level, at a senior level. And we could see here that only 30% of the VC workforce at every other level in the UK is identified as a woman and when we look at partner level, only 13% are women. Right. And if we look at in General the ethnicity, 76% of the people working in Venture in the UK are wide. While if we look at the rest of the industries or the industries or across the industries, we would say that 59% are white. So we are even more white male dominated industry than the rest of the industries in the market.

Right.

And so if we look at the degrees, we are also not very diverse. We can see that 20% of the partners and, and the leaders in the VC industry went to Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Stanford. And those are just four universities. And so we are not taking into account any other university which is outside the UK and outside the us which is pretty incredible and sad, right? At the same time. So notion, obviously we are aware of those numbers, but we don't like to be looking at the numbers and not acting on those. So this year for the first time and led by Maddie, we started putting in place a couple of actions. One of them, I already mentioned it on the term sheet, we are starting to work with the companies and basically ensuring that we are aligned. That DI is a very important, a very important topic for both of us. But on the hiring process, we are basically using technology. We are using a software called Applied so we can go through a blind application process to hire people into notion so that we are not biased on where these people studied, where people come from, where is their ethnicity and gender, right? So that's second thing that we are doing, we are expanding our networks and as I said, we've built already some of the programs, that is just the next point. Some of the programs that incentivize people who are from underrepresented backgrounds to getting vc. But also we are using many of those networks to, to look for people who will become the next entrepreneurs, the next big or build the next big unicorns, right? And we are going through those networks and working very closely with them. So we have created a list of them and now we have a very structured program to approach them throughout our outbound activities that we do for reaching out to founders, right? So we have hired an external consultancy firm which is an expert on addressing the bias on business processes in general, not necessarily in VC but in any other decision making, management process, business process operations and so on, who are working with us and basically attending many of our meetings, internal meetings, investment committee meetings, decision making meetings, meetings with companies to address potential bias in questioning in targeting those entrepreneurs. And so we are using an external party for that so they can point to us, to things that we can improve and we think that can be pretty much an eye opener for us in terms of things that we might not be even realizing we are doing right now. Because many times you are biased and you don't even realize you are taking an approach that is not maybe unbiased completely 100%. And finally, we are working with many community groups, I mean the geek girls and women in tech and founders for the school and so on, which in fact makes me smile because they are just an amazing in bunch of communities and trying to integrate ourselves in their events and helping and mentoring many of those founders who in our opinion with a little bit of support could get much faster to raise money and to succeed. Right. They have all the things that you need to be a great founder and they just need a little push, I would say. Right. And maybe Maddie, you want to go a little bit through the summary?

Yeah, I will, Sorry, my slides are flicking around a bit, but yeah, I'll just go through the summary. So the main things that we've covered and please do feel free of course to ask questions. I can see there's a few questions in there already, which we'll get to in a moment. The first thing there is a correlation between high levels of diversity and unicorn status. So if you are a founder who's kind of thinking that that's where you want to go and you're your business up to hit a billion dollar valuation, then this is definitely something worth thinking about. It's never too early to start thinking about it. So just a small recap here. Slack brought in an external DNI consultant when they were just 75 people and Upnex has hired a chief people officer when they were two years into their journey. Your ability to raise funds right now is unlikely to be impacted by the diversity of your team, but things may not stay that way forever. As Achaso talked about, we're starting to about how we approach that. And lastly, ask your VC for help with it. As Achaso put really well, we are not good at this in the VC industry. We really aren't. And we are trying really hard to hold ourselves up to better standards of D and I. And so if you're a founder that's kind of wondering how you tackle this, ask your VC for help. They've almost certainly been thinking about it or can point you in the right direction of someone that's been helping them. And so that's it. So thank you everyone for listening. And I'll just go to the questions now. I can see we've got a few questions in there.

Maybe you can start from this one, Maddie, based on the analysis that you are working on, there's a question around the benchmarks. So is there any benchmarks that we are working towards? And if. Yes, what are those benchmarks and how can we find them? And maybe you can respond to that one.

Benchmarks in terms of our portfolio, I'm assuming. So whoever's asked the question, if you don't mean the portfolio, if you mean the fund, please feel free to jump in now and say that that's what you mean. Yes. So with the portfolio at the moment, we're actually in the process of figuring out what the benchmark should be. So we've just undergone an assessment that was run by Diverse TVC here in Europe. And the assessment is called the standard. And that looks at a number of different things we do. So we're going through the standard at the moment, and part of the standard is looking at how we set benchmarks for the portfolio. The first stage of that is that we gather data on who's in the portfolio at the moment from an ethnic and gender background. So right now that survey is live with all of our portfolio companies. I think I've had about 200 responses out of what we expect would be about seven or 800 leaders. We're only focusing on heads of director, level VP and C suite for the moment in the portfolio. But once we've pulled all that together, we're likely to publish it towards the end of the year. So if you follow notion on LinkedIn or me orchaso, you'll be able to see when that's published, but it will hopefully come out this year. And we are. It's something that I'm personally spending a lot of time on.

Yeah, absolutely. So I can take the next question, which is about the opportunities available at Notion to work with. I mean, if we are working with communities and if we have any plans to expand the diversity program to the us. So the first question about the opportunities available to Notion for communities to work with us. So I have to say that yes, there are opportunities, definitely. And as I said, right now we have a blind process for the application, so we are welcoming those. Not only that, we are marketing actively to the different organizations and team groups that we just mentioned because we think it's very important, but we have a blind screening process. We had an example of one of the interns who started with us, Joshua, who is basically he moved to the UK from Africa when he was really basically a child. But he's African originally and he came, he joined us as an intern and he's still with us now. He has another year contract at least and working very actively with Maddie on the research and with us with some of the deals too. So that is a good example of somebody from a different background and related to diversity VC and expanding to the us. In fact we've been talking about it already. We are right now in yearly conversation with a couple of partners but we would love to have you as a partner if you are interested. So please drop us a line to any of us. My email in fact is Ichasootion VC very easy but if you are interested on that we are absolutely open to open it to the US and to look for partners there. Yeah, absolutely.

Thanks Acheso. And then there's one at the top there. This is awesome and I couldn't agree more. Our company is working to help companies automatically track their dni. Do leverage us. Thank you Chuka. We will. I'll take a look at that and obviously for anyone else who's watching also please take a look at that. And then one from Maggie here. Have you seen the same returns on women led companies that you see with their counterparts? I think the answer to this is that it's too early to say but Achaso, maybe that's one you want to talk to.

Yeah, not adnotion. I think there are diverse studies which have been done around this. I'm not sure if they are related to returns specifically, but definitely to capital efficiency indexes or financial management of the companies. And some of those indexes have shown that having women in management has shown very good capital efficiency. I can't really give you the numbers because I don't have them in the top of my mind. They were not specifically linked to returns, so I haven't seen those. But yeah, definitely there are a couple of them on financial management and capital efficiency that I would recommend you take a look at. Those ones definitely.

Thanks Achaso. And then the last question is just do you have an Entrepreneur in Residence program? We actually, we don't. But whenever we have a role open at Notion, we always publish it on LinkedIn and a number of other jobs boards. So please do follow us there because as Achaso mentioned, we're really keen to avoid just recruiting people into Notion immediately from our network. And so we're making sure that every role that's open at Notion is publicly available to everyone so that we can really start to expand who comes to work with us and for us. So do follow us there and if we do open up any positions like that, you will be able to see them on our LinkedIn profile. And I think that I would add.

To that that everyone within Notion has an entrepreneurial background. So everyone within Notion has at least started a company or worked for startups before. So that's definitely a good background to have when you are applying to any role that we have open.

So if there's no more questions I think we will tie it up here. But thanks so much everyone for listening and if you do have any suggestions for how we can do better at this or for how our portfolio companies might do better at this, Achaso already told you her email and mine is mcrossotion VC and I'm also on LinkedIn a lot so feel free to message me there as well and I will pick it up. So thanks so much everyone for your time and I hope you enjoy the rest of Sester. Thank you.

Thank you everybody. Enjoy.