What To Expect From a (Great) VP+ of Product with Auth0 Chief Product Officer Shiven Ramji

So welcome everyone. I know this is the last session for the day, there's been some amazing content throughout the day and this is the last one. So some of you maybe are in the middle of the day, some of you are probably in the end of the day. So you could be spending your time with anyone, but you're spending it with me. So I really, I really appreciate that. Before I kick off sort of the talk and sort of the workshop and conversation, I just wanted to maybe share a little bit about myself. I've been really fortunate, sort of have had experience across many sort of functional areas, worked with different company types, startups, growth stages, you know, even established companies and have had the sort of opportunity to build the product discipline a few times and really different versions of the product discipline too. Everything from product management on its own to including design, engineering, pricing, documentation, data and also competitive intelligence. And again, I'm by no means an expert. Everything I want to share here is just everything that I have observed, seen and learned through my experience and some through obviously spending time in the industry with other CPUs and heads of product and from a, you know, relevant to sort of the SaaS audience. I think two things may be important to call out sort of. Most recently, you know, I was at DigitalOcean prior to Auth0, which is sort of a product led growth company and they filed their S1 just about two weeks ago and then want zero. We're sort of, we do have both product led and sales led and you know, there was an acquisition announcement about, about a week ago also. So pretty sort of crazy times across both experiences. And I'm hoping to share some of those, some of those experiences with a few. So I'll, I'll sort of talk about why and when to get a VP or VP plus a product. I'll share a little bit about the traits and then how they can be applied to different stages of a company and really get into some of my key takeaways and, and hopefully get into lots of time into, into Q and A. So make this interactive and a two way discussion. So if you do have questions, please please go ahead and post them in the platform that Lindsey had mentioned or if you're on Zoom, go ahead and post them here so that we can have an engaging discussion at the end. Okay, so I first want to set up the scene or the context here, which is I got inspiration of this visual and chart from another product leader here in New York from Teachable and I thought this was a good way to frame sort of the conversation which is first off like the type of product person that you need really may depend on the stage of company. And you may be looking for different things at the different stages of your company. You know, very few. And again it's, this is not a common thing and it's not that people don't scale, but there is a good chance that you may not have the same product leader that takes you through all of these stages. And so what you're seeing up here is just sort of, you know, a timeline of when the company is founded and is going through massive scale. And I've also plotted sort of your, your growth in terms of ARR and also your funding. And so to the left here, which is sort of when you're in startup mode, a lot of this is driven by founder and instinct driven really execution matters. You're executing really, really fast. You know, there's a, there's a portion of of your world here where you're, you know, you're pursuing every idea and almost selling to anyone with a pulse. And it's really about value discovery. Right. So pre series A and up to leading up to series A, you're really trying to optimize for value discovery. And you know, most, most SaaS companies or most companies will bring in a VP of product ideally around series A because it's likely that founders have some product culture to take you to, to that stage. But that's not always the case. Sometimes companies go even further. So they may wait till, excuse me, till series B. I have seen all the way up to series D and even beyond, but usually you're at a very different scale there which is like more about organized growth. Right. So you're really focused on what works best. You know, failures have a high cost. So you know, research becomes kind of important skill to have and part of the organizational DNA. You know, you're building for scale and in the event, if you're doing B2B, you know, enterprise readiness really becomes a big theme here and you know, which may sort of break everything you've been doing in the past. And you're in the stage of about value extraction really. Right. And so, so these are sort of like the two. I think I wanted to sort of start with this context to paint the picture. There is this like startup mode and there is a scale up mode. I'm sure there are finer nuances, but I felt like this was a good way to set the context of what to look for and when. And then I kind of have this GIF here which is sort of a baby giraffe being born. I usually share this with my team and I've done this so many times, which is when you're scaling and especially if you're in hyper growth mode, honestly it's going to feel like this, which is like a baby giraffe being born and going through all kinds of struggles where things are breaking everywhere. And this is a very, very bumpy stage for a company, but particularly very bumpy for a head of product, a VP of product or, or a CPU if you, if you have one at a much earlier stage. So what I want to do for, for this workshop and this discussion, I'm kind of going to focus on these two stages. Not so much on pre series A, but sort of, you know, what to, what do you, what to look for post series A. And then we'll also look at post A series C and above or C and D and above so that you can sort of see the differences that, that you look out for. Now before we get into that, I just wanted to share like what are, what are the traits of product. Product leaders. And there are different versions of this. You know, some people will focus on the first three. Focusing on customers. You're the proxy for the customer, you're obsessing about customers, you're working from the customer backwards and sort of they're the representative of the customer at every conversation. Communication like I have not seen any great product leader. You know, a successful product leader is not be great communicator. So you'd be really, really good at communication. It's not just communicating internally, but it's actually communicating externally. So setting your vision, communicating your roadmaps, meeting with your customers regularly, whether it's in a QB or on escalation, you really have to be good at communication. And I think coaching is a really important skill. A lot of the times product leaders are usually mostly in an influencer role. They're not really owning a specific team or a decision other than their own domain. And so they're playing a big coaching and education role. And this coaching rule kind of evolves based on the stages and we'll talk a little bit about that. And then for later stages I think, I mean execution obviously is important regardless, but I think in the later stages strategy is also really, really important, especially C, D and above, because there's a good chance the product strategy may actually be the company strategy. So you have to be very good at setting strategy. You have to be very good at communicating strategy both internally and externally and being very Good at thinking long term. And so, you know, it's not uncommon to think about two to three years out. Some companies may even go beyond based on their stage and scale. And usually when you're scaling stages, I think org design is also really, really important. And this is not just about making sure you have all the right functions or the processes, but it's also thinking about how to shape the organization, how to change it, be dynamic about it and how you should plan for as the company is growing and as your org is growing, how to design the organization, but and also avoiding pitfalls of org design or misaligned orgs and the impact that can happen. And then I think the final one, for me this could either be around trust or partnership, but this is really about grounding, about making sure that you're constantly earning trust. Very important to earn trust with your peers. You know, product teams have to do. Product leaders have to earn trust with their peers in engineering, sales, go to market, market teams such as marketing and sales. And so. But that's all the internal trust that you have to earn. Of course, trust with the founders is really, really important. But then also trust with customers such that if you are in a customer meeting and a prospect meeting, that you are genuine, you're believable and you're authentic. So let's get into maybe those two stages that I talked about. So I'm going to maybe focus on post series A where you're still sort of in startup mode now. I think the audience can download this deck, by the way, or if you want to take a screenshot for referring this for reference later, you can do that. Because I'm not going to go through all of the text here. I'll just highlight on, on a, on a, on a few things here. Usually when you post series A, you know, most important thing a great sort of VP or product can help with is really prioritization because you are really your team and your organization is really flooded with requests, right? Sales. One big feature that a prospect is asking and you kind of want to land that big logo, there's a good chance you want to do that. You're tempted to do that. Support teams will need escalations for things they can't handle because they're not equipped to do that. They may not be support tooling available. If you're dealing with, you know, enterprise readiness or security software, they may be security vulnerabilities. You know, engineers may want to really think about tech debt or solving scalability issues. And then if you have a sales team, it's all about when is a new feature coming to market. So this is a really tough spot because you kind of want to make progress on all of these fronts, but you probably won't be able. So I think at this stage, making sure that you have a VP that has a good, strong prioritization framework and somebody's really good at communicating and managing stakeholders. Because I think the context here is from a founder lens. They have been maybe up to two years or three years at the problem and so they've seen what works, which is like they're involved in every decision making process. It's all about ship, ship, ship, get value. So they know that that really works. And so when you bring in a VP of product who may introduce some prioritization, some frameworks, if you will, there is going to be a little bit of skepticism and resistance amongst not only just the founders, but probably the other key stakeholders. So I think the key role during this stage is also for a VP of product is really to make sure that they are managing stakeholders. The other important part, sort of post series is execution. So, you know, keeping the eye on getting continuous small wins because, you know, that's really, really important, which is, you know, momentum has to keep going. And then hiring sort of an experienced VP who already has an established network also really, really helps. So I'll just share from my experience, When I joined DigitalOcean, I already had a network of of PMs that I could bring in and I did very quickly. So you already have established trust and you start seeing the impact of that. Because when the right PMs and the PMs that you work with come on board, they can really be important in establishing that initial contact with sort of the engineering teams who sort of maybe up to now have been running on their own. And there is also sort of a timing aspect of this because hiring good PMs takes a lot of time. So if you bring in a VP who does not have a network, well, that's usually a flag because it's going to take you much longer to ramp. And frankly for the VP to ramp also, it's also a good time to start establishing if you are invested in the feature team or a triad design or a pod. There are different terms for how you can organize teams and people have different preferences. But in most likely scenario you will probably want a good partnership between product management, design and engineering. At the very least. There could be other roles too. Product marketing and documentation, depending on the type of product. So establishing that sort of culture of collaboration early on is also really, really important. And then obviously you have to continue to build trust and partnerships internally and external. So this sort of just gives you a little bit of an overview of what are the types of things to look for in a great vpn. And this is also already. A lot to manage. Now let's contrast this with your post series C or D or maybe beyond. If you really waited that long, One note is if you wait that long, you should be aware that you've actually accumulated a lot of debt or there's a lot of tax you're going to pay because the longer you wait to bring in a product leader, the longer your design and or engineering teams are running without that help. And so they may get set in a certain way. And so to undo that will cause a lot of friction also with, with your engineering team. So it's really important to be aware of that. So at this stage, I think, you know, on the customer front, I think the important part to call out is, you know, it's very easy for the scale and stage to lose sight of customers. And so great product leaders are always customer obsessed. And so they meet with customers at all levels, including prospects. They also attend big customer QBRs if that's relevant in the line of business. And they spend time with a manager, number of customers across all sizes, industries and geographies. Again, you kind of want to be the representative of the customer and keep your ear close to what your customers are dealing with. Different companies. Like if you're a sales led, obviously the sales channel or support channels are a good proxy. But if you're not, if you're product led, again, feedback comes through social channels, through NPS surveys, through other product surveys. And so making sure that you are constantly looking at that feedback and synthesizing it in meaningful ways, kind of important at this stage. Communication at all levels is really, really important. Repetition will be necessary and so making sure there's a constant drumbeat of the most important concepts. And I think at this stage, the product leaders have to be able to succinctly communicate the product strategy in line with the company mission, vision and strategy also. And like I said, in some cases there's a good chance, depending on the type of company, your product strategy may actually be your company strategy or maybe very closely aligned. So being able to do this very well, be able to communicate, it simply becomes really, really important. And it's not really just communicating internally, it tends to be communicating with customers, maybe analysts may even be investors or VCs that you're meeting with, you have to be able to communicate that vision very, very clearly. On the coaching front, I think there is this concept that I've been talking about. There is a desire that if you're a VP of product or even a chief product officer that you have answers to everything. You probably will not. And so it's important to hire the right technical experts where necessary or domain expertise where necessary. In a power distributed decision making. The key word here is you have to really focus a lot of your time in early alignment. I can't share how many times, you know, I'll have teams come to me like oh my God, you know, we're just doing something for process's sake or this process is broken and a lot of the teams, at least it's a key word for me. When teams are overly upset and obsessed about processes, bad processes usually are an excretion of misalignment. And so you have to spend a lot of time early on to make sure that there is good alignment. Because if you have good alignment, smart teams know how to organize and know how to build the right process. So again, not saying process is not important because at this scale you will need that. But I think even more important it's early alignment on goals and objectives. The other thing on a strategy perspective, I think it's a given that you have to continue executing. So momentum is really, really important. But I want to touch on a lot of the times, especially if you're a VP or even it goes up to vp. It can apply to a vp but certainly applies to a Chief Product Officer which is, you know, they. There is a misconception that you have to be really good at product. Actually, I think it's the opposite. You actually have to be very good at the business and putting the business first. And it's sort of like you have a major in business in the business itself and you have a minor in product which is like for example in my case non zero. I did bring in a VP of product. And so I don't make all the product decisions. I make sure that I have the entire context of the business in mind. And then I rely on experts such as my VP or product to make a lot of the product decisions on a day to day basis. And I think that focusing on like doing two to three year financial planning is really, really critical because this is where you'll partner well with the CFO and the CEO because and in many cases even the board because you're doing much longer term horizon and planning and frankly this is what helps you architect what, what, what is coming next. And so you're not reactive but you're starting to become proactive at this stage. Also ability to map the market, look for adjacency is important because there's a good chance that you're trying to see what are the other other new products markets that you want to enter. And the final two here from Org Design, you kind of want to, you know, this is an important one especially if you're in a hyper growth company. So hyper growth usually is anywhere between anything above 44, I think 45% is considered hyper growth. But a lot of SaaS companies we've seen recently are way beyond that 70, 100 and even more so depending on what cycle you are in your triple, double, double journey here. But you know, you really want to make sure, you know, and at that growth level your company's practically changing every six months the shape of the company. And so hiring a leader to solve your six month problems and Frank or I would argue even your problems that you see on a one year horizon is not going to be good enough because hiring director and above or a VP will take two to three months, onboarding rampant will take another two to three months or four months. These are sort of best case scenarios. You're already seven to eight months in and so if you hired somebody with the idea of I'm hiring somebody for a job that they can do for the next year, you're already kind of out of luck because the job is out from them. So super important to understand work design two years out and then good VP plus leaders at this stage are very good at setting the pace and bar for middle managers. So they should be constantly up, leveling, training, coaching the senior managers, directors, directors, VPs and beyond. So I think being a bar raiser is a really good sign, is a really healthy sign for. And then I think, you know, as you grow it's really important to maintain the trust with internal stakeholders, especially sales, finance, marketing, because you really want to accelerate decision making and at this stage you really want to avoid analysis paralysis because as you're hiring and your products are maturing, you know, some places data and analysis is important and in some places it, it may not be as important. So next slide here. All right, so I'm going to wrap maybe like what are some of the other top takeaways that I've had? I shared a lot of what to look for between the different stages there and obviously it took a simplicity of just splitting into two. My other Key, you know, top takeaways are like I said I'd started with like, you know, the right vp plus the product really depends on the stage of the company. But the longer you wait, just so you know that you are going to accrue organizational tax that you will have to pay later. So you know if you can hire sooner, you should. And in fact I talk to lots of founders who always say I wish we would have hired this person earlier. Again, if it's a right hire. There have been mishires too. But if you have the right person, always hire them ahead of the curve and the challenges can have and then expect this journey from post series A to series B to D and plus and beyond to be a painful one. And I think one of the sort of advice I have for founders or CEOs looking to hire in these roles is you have to have patience. You had to give them the time and the room to show progress. And, and you will see lots will still be broken. But remember that they're balancing strategy with constant execution, which is sort of what I highlighted and it's sort of like what you also want to see. And I think the last one is you want to find out quickly if they care enough. Like are they delivering constant wins, building momentum? Do they understand your domain, understand your market, do they understand your customer? The good ones really will lap you because they will figure things out over time, much faster, much better and there's a good chance they'll be ahead of you. And that's actually a very good, that's exactly what you want in the position that you want them to be in because it frees you up to do other things and scale. And then the bonus for me, this is the last one here and then I want to switch to an interactive portion here because we can have a two way conversation. Answer your most pressing questions is at least this is mine. Hire a leader with taste. A lot of the times when I see product hiring, it's all about can they scale, can they put a process, can they hire, do they know how to prioritize, can they mentor content, community? All of that is important. All of that is good for me at least one of the things is hire a leader with a taste who cares about how the product needs to be, not just about process and people. And all of those things are important. But I do think great product leaders and great products ultimately do have a taste like they have an opinion about how good things, how what good looks like. Right. And so I think that's really, really Important, especially in a world today where there's a lot of similar experiences. Lots of products have great user experiences and onboarding and growth hacks and the like. And so to continue to stand out, I think you really need to have an opinion and frankly bring a little bit of your own taste to the table. So with that, Lindsay, I'm now going to open it up to Q and A. I was not paying attention to any.

No problem. We've already got a few questions in. So as a reminder for those that are in the event platform and you have a question for Shiv, please just drop it within the question portal on the right rail. And if you're with us here in the meeting itself, you can unmute yourself and ask directly or drop it in the chat. But Shim, we've got a few questions for you. Are you ready to begin? Okay, first question actually is coming from Jason. What is to junior a level of experience for a vp, a product hire?

Yeah, this is a really good question. So I've had some of my other friends or peers in the industry have reached out. They're like, hey, we're looking to hire a VP and we have a director somewhere like I think he's ready for. Can we just hire him a director? My advice on them is probably not. Again, it depends. Director where? Because obviously director at a much larger tech company comes with a different set of experiences. But if there have been a first time director somewhere, chances are they don't have that powerful of a network. So right there, if you're going to bring them in and if they can't bring three or four people with them, you're stuck. It's going to take you eight months before you can get value out of that role. So I think ideally they've had at least director or senior director for a few years and you can verify that they have a network and they have built something from scratch because especially as your first, if it's your first vp, you kind of want to understand that they can take lots of chaotic information, ambiguous environments and can put some structure in place and can ship as fast and execute on the key things that you want. So I think, but also if you know, and then if you want to scale beyond Series A, I think having some organizational planning and structure experience really helps so that they're not doing this for the first time or reading a blog or you know, going to a few talks and experimenting. I think it, you know, I think that's a really high bar to overcome.

So another question related to the experience of a VP of Product is is it important that that person, that candidate, has managed an engineer team or have coded at some point?

I don't think they have to have managed an engineering team or that they have to have coded first. Actually. Now it really depends on the type of product. So I'm going to caveat this answer. I have seen products, heads of products with just a purely designed background. They were not coders, they were not. They didn't manage engineering teams and they've been successful. I've seen product leaders with an economics background. I've seen product leaders with history majors. I mean, that's the one thing about product leaders. They come in different, in different backgrounds. Now if it's a technical product, and I'm speaking from my vantage point, which is DigitalOcean was very much a technical product geared after developers and certainly is the case with AD0. So I think in that case it actually helps if you have been technical and, or if you've managed technical teams before, largely because you have credibility from day one. Right. Like you're. I think as you all know, if you're not technical for a technical product, getting respect from engineering alone will be such a high bar that I think that's really hard to overcome.

Okay, let's see here. We've got another. Have you seen a remote vpp higher work, where is the VP is far away from the development team, different time zones, even offices. How does that work? What's your perspective there?

Yes, it can work. We certainly have it. I've been through that myself, by the way. I'm remote. Even prior to the pandemic I was remote. So that's a testament of the fact that it can work. But you have to put a lot of effort. But I don't think this is unique to what do you need to do to make the VP of Product successful? Although I can see because they're the center of the hub, given their, their running strategy, prioritizing and the like. I think the most important part there is just if you're going to be remote, make sure you do all the right things to make remote teams successful. So be mindful of time zones, be very good at asynchronous communication and, and if the VP is certainly going to be remote, they better be very good, a very good writer and a very good consumer of information. Right? Because I think in a remote environment your success really depends on how clearly you can articulate your thoughts and communicate. So it certainly can work. But I don't think it's just about Making the VP or product successful. If you're doing that, there's a good chance you probably have more teams that are remote and so making sure time zones. But async communication is something you have to set up right from the get go.

Great. Next question. What would you say are important wins that a VP of product at a series B or C startup need to score within the first year of a first year of hire?

Yeah, I think. Okay, there's a little bit of a hack and a trick here. So. So. Okay, so if you're reporting into assuming I'm making a few assumptions if the co founder is still around, I think the first thing is to figure out what are decisions that the co founder still wants to be involved in or co founder or CEO. Once you know that the hot zones that they want to be involved in make sure you are bringing them along and they are part of decision. Anything that's outside of that. And by the way every founder and or founding team has it. There are some things they just don't enjoy. Go rack up as many wins as you can. And so I don't have like a particular thing around meet. You know it would be fun if the answer was go meet 50 customers. And I think the urge for product leaders would be like show research, show process. Put gates around the founders, lock them in, wall them around with processes. That usually is not the answer. I think the answer is figure out what are the areas and decisions that you will need the co founder and or CEO or CTO involved and what are the decisions that lie outside there. Make sure you rack up a lot of wins. And when you do that by the way it's not just the co founder or CEO who's your champion at that point. There's a beautiful thing that happens which is other leaders on the team start vouching for you. Right. And so getting wins with especially the B2B sales, marketing and helping them or customer success. I think that's a good way that, that's a good way to sort of understand their, their effectiveness. So the, you know my, my whole thing is always about like you, you need a constant flurry of wins and momentum in, in all shapes and sizes. And once you do that momentum is usually very good. Is a positive thing for product leaders and helps them along the way.

Great, thank you. Next question shiv is can you talk about DevSecOps experience needed for today's chief product officers?

If you are a product that's, that's catering to the DevSecOps or SecOps community. I can see that's helpful but not necessary. Like I'll just give an example. I'll use myself as an example. I I manage the security engineering team today. I'm not a pro at DevSecOps but I know the right questions to ask to a get up to speed to understand if we're going to the right strategy. And I also know the right people to hire and empower. So I don't think you have to be an expert in the very specific topic. It certainly helps but. But I don't think that's a hard requirement. I think, I think good VPs of product and and chief product officers will figure that out and if it's not them, it'll be somebody else on their team. But they know enough. They will ask the right questions to make sure that they understand the customer, the industry.

Okay, we've got one or two more. And a reminder, anybody can drop in questions or turn on your audio and ask Shiv directly. Next question Shiv for you is how much time should a BP of products spend with customers in general and in with it and within their first 60 days of the job.

The first 60 days of the job, as much as you can honestly. Because internally you know figuring out how to use expensify not the biggest value add for you. You should be spending as much time with your customers because remember there is a customer view of the world and there is also an internal view of the world and sometimes they'll align, sometimes they won't. I personally would say always ground yourself in the customer two things because they will educate you faster because internally you'll be led with like our constraints and our issue. Like there's a lot of internal stuff that maybe you don't get the right. It may be more nuanced you don't get the right color. So in the first 60 days spend as much time as you can with customers in general. You should be meeting with your customers every week and so some way shape or form. Now this doesn't have to be like a three hour meeting with a prospect necessarily. I'll give you maybe a little view of my week, right? Like just, just this week I do have two customer calls that are prospects. I read all the NPS comments that we get every single day. I look at our support comments on at least a weekly basis and understand where our pain points are. I pay attention to socials anytime something about Hot zero is tagged. If there's a hacker news article I will go look at that and engage. So customer interaction doesn't always mean being locked up in a meeting with the sales team. There are other independent ways that you can get that insight. And so I think you should have some customer interaction every week at least to keep your ears to the closest to the customer's feedback. Sounds good.

Another question. What posture should a VP of product take when he or she is in a sales led organization as opposed to a product led organization?

Yeah, a very, very good question. First off, don't be a zealot about it's all about product. Like this is where I think my advice here is focus on the business. Be a business driven exec first. Put the business first. Both of these models are valid. It's not like one is superior over the other. And some companies actually might have a little bit of both or maybe one may be more dominant, but they do have the other. I think you will get respected even in a sales led organization if again you put the business first, you understand the decisions that are made. Even if you disagree, you're committing to the things that are being done. And sometimes you're also on a journey. You know, I've made these, these trade offs myself. Like hey, right now I understand we need to do this big sales deal. You know what, we are going to go commit to this. Yes, we're going to change things around the roadmap, especially if you're selling to enterprises. My advice is don't be confused that somehow you're going to have this beautiful product journey, beautiful roadmaps and you will always just stick to your execution. Enterprises will push you, they have different expectations and you will change your roadmap and you will have to address their needs. As long as you're not doing something too custom that other customers don't benefit from, obviously stay away from that. But I think if you're targeting enterprises, I have this rough number. It's not scientific, it's really just a rough estimate which is at least up to 20% of your roadmap may get dictated by an enterprise, you know, obviously through a salesperson or a sales deal. And so I think focus on building the right business first. And I think when you do that, you end up earning trust with other execs on the team too. So that would be sort of my approach to that. Awesome.

Well, I think we were able to tackle every question that we got, which is great. If anyone has any last minutes, send them in right away. Just wanted to also note that for any of you that are looking for the presentation that Shiv walked us through in this Session, just reload, refresh your event page and it will be appear at the bottom of your screen. So it will be available to you just do a quick refresh. But it looks like we've got, we don't have any more questions. So Shiv, thank you so much for joining us today. Today for this great session. A great Q A. Oh, Josh, do you have a question?

Yeah, just one, one question before we wrap up here. Hey Shiv, great talk. Thanks, really appreciate it. Question for you about, you know, incoming candidates coming from bigger, much bigger technology organizations. You know, where do you see the challenges for, you know, books, both of your kind of timelines here for folks who don't have, you know, series A, series B, series C experience, but they are coming from equivalent organizational sizes at a larger tech organization. Yeah, I think the thing that I test for is can they architect, can they take very, very ambiguous information? An architect, you know, whether it's a strategy or a team or organ. I think the important part that's the thing to, you know, I don't dismiss anybody that's coming from a large company. I do think, you know, they do bring relevant experience and I say so because I have made a transition like that myself personally. I have worked at bigger companies and I've been able to find success in younger companies. So at least my perspective is yes, you can actually do that. The important part is they have the ability to handle because especially series A very chaotic and in many cases you live very opinionated and command and control founders too. So you have to have really thick skin. One, I think thick skin and two is your ability architects and things. If you can prove that you can do that and if your interview is geared around sussing those out in large companies then I think that's the key ingredient because I think as a company is growing and scaling. That's what you will need is build the right processes, the right recruiting, the right hiring bar, the right culture. And if you have not architected a culture, you just executed on a culture, it's really hard to pull yourself out. So at least I've found that those are the things that really help is you, you, you tease out. Can they actually form an opinion of their own? Can they create the right culture and pace for the organization? And if an architect and if they can, then, then I think they would do well. Okay.

Well again thanks Shiv for joining us today and thank you all for on the line for joining us at Saster Build. We hope you had a great two day event with us and we'll hope to see you all soon. Thanks very much.