Exclusive Chat with Sanders Frye of Frye Marine Boat Buying and Selling in Traverse City

The ride is just so much different. Boston Whaler makes a great boat. Pursuit, Tierra Yachts is in that, that category as well. If you're strictly looking for something that is good for a large group of people, Tritunes are really the way to go.

So what is, what is a boat survey?

I mean, kind of like a home inspection. So there's accredited marine surveyors, and there's not very many. There's 2 in Traverse City. The buyer hires them to come in and inspect both out of water typically and on water. So it's a, you know, if it's a big boat like this, they get it pulled out on that lift. The guy does all sorts of tests and checks and figures and all sorts of stuff on the hull, you know, checking integrity, gets down when we go out on the water, they're checking everything on the engines, drives, all that stuff. And then they, you know, they get a 20-page report or whatever on all the surveyor's findings and use that to kind of determine, hey, do I want to move forward? Do we need to renegotiate price based on stuff that needs to be fixed or something? But again, that's all, you know, that's buyer side. And you'll get people that come back to me as like the listing agent or the listing broker and want same thing. Well, we need to— you need to tell your guy we're dropping at $10K. And it's like, no, your surveyor didn't find the whatever you're referring to.

We're kind of jumping into this sooner than I thought. So do you work as sellers broker on the selling side, so listing the boat for sale, and then do you also represent buyers on the buying side?

Yes. Okay. Yep. And you can do both sides, which, you know, happens sometimes. I mean, not all the time, but, you know, again, very similar to real estate. Like, some— my friend comes and they want to sell their boat, don't want to deal with the hassle, whatever it is, they list it with me. I advertise it, try to find buyers, you know, Facebook, Craigslist, YachtWorld, Boat Trader, all those things. Oftentimes there's somebody that they kind of know what they want. They don't want to spend the time like looking for it and vetting different options. So they come to me and say, hey, I want to— I want, you know, this make and model, kind of this year range. Can you find that for me? And then I go out and, you know, kind of do that vetting and act as the expert, so to speak, where, you know, I'm doing the research to say, oh, well, you don't really want this model year. You know, they had issues with this manufacturing process, that kind of thing. You know, you might want to look at something a few years newer. You know, these engines were kind of bogus for a couple years there. You don't, you don't want that. You want, you know, this other thing.

So like real estate agents, you're knowledgeable up to a point, but you can't go beyond into what a boat surveyor is doing.

Correct.

Yep.

Yeah, I, and I'm very clear about that up front. You know, I don't have the technical background to get into the nitty-gritty with like engines and, you know, service things, that kind of aspect to it.

But And that is your commission. As you know, like, one of the things that's an interesting thing about real estate is there's this assumption that the price is somehow set from some governmental agency or set from outside. It's absolutely not. It's all negotiable, but it kind of falls into a range. And in the Traverse City area, it's about 2.5% for the listing side, 2.5% for the buyer side, or somewhere of a total of 5%. Or as high as 6%. So based on, you know, is, is that something that really varies from boat to boat, or is there sort of like an industry standard on what people can expect to pay for broker to help either buy or sell a boat?

There's— depends a little bit on region even, you know. In the Great Lakes, it's typically 10% of the sale price, but you'll find, you know, 5 or 6, you know, Some, some brokers or some independent places will do 5 or 6 as a total and then do a split if there's a co-broker situation.

And I'm sure it depends on the boat. In real estate, a lot of the percentage will be different sometimes for vacant land. The lower-priced properties maybe have— would have a higher percentage versus if you're selling a multi-million dollar, you know, because that's where percentages and nominal figures start to— right, right— change the calculation a little bit. Tell us about a bit about your background and how you got into the boat sales industry.

Born and raised in northern Michigan. I have photos of when I was 2 weeks old out on my parents' boat. So I just kind of have grown up in this world and kind of lifestyle, so to speak. So when I was making a career change a handful of years ago, it just kind of seemed logical to get into something that was more fun. It's a pretty laid-back industry for the most part. I get to be out on the water a ton of time during the summer, even into the spring and fall occasionally. So it's just something that I really enjoy doing. It was not something that was on my radar, you know, I think going into, into college and even a few years after that. But once it kind of became apparent that you could, you know, make a living and enjoy your time and have fun with what you were doing, it was kind of a no-brainer.

So yeah, yeah. How long you've been doing it?

So this would be year 7 for me.

Yeah, so at that time where you're not cutting your teeth anymore and you haven't gotten old. Do you have any particular specialty or is it pretty much as the specialty sort of determined by the region.

I'd say right now, just based on kind of my setup here at the marina, trailer boats tend to be a little bit more simple because I don't have the service team and the kind of the service side behind me. And that's more of a kind of a long-term goal here. So stuff, anything that's on a trailer, you know, fishing boats, pontoons, small cruisers, that kind of thing, those are just a little easier to manage right now as a, you know, an individual broker.. But I have experience up to, you know, 45, 50 feet, you know, $1 million in that range price-wise. So, you know, I like to think that I can kind of handle anything and everything and have, you know, so far it's been interesting kind of venturing out on my own now to see the reception from both small boat owners and the larger boat owners. You know, there's always kind of this excitement over a new venture. You know, some people have been really supportive and I've had a lot of positive feedback. Um, but most of the activity so far has been kind of that sub, you know, 28 or 30 foot on trailers. So yeah, um, but again, anything— pontoons, fishing boats, center consoles, all that stuff.

Yeah, by the way, I've, uh, you know, it's been a while. It's been since my kids were younger, and of course now I'm a grandpa, by the way, as of July 1st last year. So CeCe, my granddaughter, will be 1-year-old July 1st. So we, we're thinking about boating again as a family because of having little ones. Certainly by the time she's 5, 6, it'll be time to have a boat. What has caught my eye is the— I think they're Sea-Dos, the pontoons that are kind of like modules that you can move. Have you sold any of those?

I have not. You haven't seen a ton of those in our area quite yet, and I'm not sure why that is, but Yeah, it's a, it's a great concept, you know. It kind of takes the, the versatility of pontoons but gives you a little more excitement, I'd say. You know, you've got the jet-powered engine, which is a little quicker to plane. It's just a little more exciting experience, I think, than a traditional pontoon. And then the modular factor is interesting too, because you get a little more versatility with seating arrangements and that kind of thing. So yeah, yeah, I've not been on one, but I've certainly seen that.

That's what drew my attention, because I thought to myself, well, there are times when you know, we want to go out with another couple or another set of couples, and it's just about the adults, right? So you want to have seats, you know. Then there are other times I'm thinking I'd like to have just straight shots so the kids, so my grandkids can run and jump off, right, thing like a dock. Yeah. And, and then I, I saw somebody pulling out actually right across the street here at Speedway, pulling out with one of those, and I You caught my attention, so then I Googled it, kind of went down a rabbit hole. Those look pretty cool. Yeah, but back to the trailer boats versus boats that aren't trailered. The boats that aren't trailered really have to be connected with like a boatyard, is that right?

Or marina, for sure. You know, obviously it helps if those are in a slip on the water and then having proximity to either, you know, a maintenance facility or what we have here at the marina in Traverse City. A lift or a, you know, a mobile structure that hauls the boat out of the water in case you're doing some sort of inspection or survey. So it doesn't need to be tied to a specific, you know, boatyard per se, but to have proximity to, you know, a maintenance facility or a haul-out facility is certainly a plus.

So I'm not in that level of boat ownership or unlikely to be, but a boatyard is basically like the mechanic shop where the boat's going to either go to be inspected or fixed. And sometimes boat— you like Northport Bay Boatyard, they're a combination. They'll pull your boat out and store it, right? But because it's not being trailered, it's not going in and out, it's basically it goes in and at least stays until the whole season. So they need a marina to be able to store the boat in, in the water season, in the water.

Yep. Okay. And there, there are a couple places here locally that offer, you know, in-and-out service for bigger boats. A little more limited. But, you know, that's something I think our area could certainly use more of is, you know, the ability to just call up, have them launch the boat for you. Just because of the kind of the geography and the layout specifically here in Traverse City, there are not many places that have the ability to haul a boat and service it or store it directly on site. You know, typically their service yard or storage facilities are, you know, a couple of miles away. Whereas, as you mentioned, Northport Bay, they do have that all of those capabilities all in one location. It's just a real estate issue, you know. I'm sure there are more, you know, developers or folks like that that would be interested in putting in an all-encompassing boatyard that offers haul-out, service, storage, all on the water. But as you know, that gets expensive when you're looking at, you know, Lake Michigan real estate.

To try— not only expensive, but the permitting's got to be almost impossible.

Yeah.

A lot of different—

you hear of, yeah, absolutely, you know, multi-year permit processes to even get plans approved, and then, you know, a couple more years to actually get the, you know, a marina or a storage facility built.

All right, so let's talk about buying a boat.

Sure.

What are the most popular types of boats for sale in this area, in the Traverse City area?

Yeah, so Traverse City area, the last probably 10 years or so, pontoons and tritoons have just been huge. They've exploded in popularity. You're still seeing that The new boat buying has slowed a little bit the last probably 18 months. Just as costs have gone up on new boats, people seem to be kind of holding on to, you know, their used pontoon, tritune, you know, fishing boat, whatever it may be. But yeah, you see—

economy related, you think?

Yeah, probably a little bit economy related, but also just, you know, specific to the price of new boats. It's kind of that trickle down where fewer people are buying new, so they're looking for quality used, you know, 2 or 3 years old, low hours, well maintained. So, but again, the pontoon pontoon and tritoons are just everywhere. You know, you're seeing a lot more of those as manufacturers build larger tritoons on big water. You know, even here on West Grand Traverse Bay, which is still Lake Michigan, it's not an inland lake, which is a misunderstanding people have sometimes. You see a lot of pontoons and tritoons out on West Bay. So that's a, it's a popular style and it checks a lot of boxes for families, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, my cousin has a pontoon boat. Northport Bay and Omina Bay are basically where he's going, you know.

Sure.

And it's, you know, people have, you know, selling real estate, you know, you can— Sutton's Bay, Omina Bay, Northport Bay, docks, you know. There's no way on the Lake Michigan side you could have a dock. The wave action would just pummel it, right?

Yeah.

But yeah, to your point, a lot of pontoons. But they're just going to stay in the bay. They're not going to Charlotte, right?

No, no. I, I'm sure there's somebody out there that's done that, but I'm not aware of any— anybody that I'm— that I know.

I'm sure there's a daredevil.

Yeah.

So let's talk about first-time boat buyers, um, you know, first-time home buyers. You know, there's a lot of advice for them in particular because that's, that's kind of like a niche right, buyer. What advice do you have for first-time boat buyers when they're looking to purchase a boat?

Sure. Yeah, I, you know, given the amount of inventory that's out there right now, it's certainly a buyer's market specific to new stuff, and even, you know, or specific to used inventory, but also new. Manufacturing is caught up to where, you know, dealers are sitting on a new boat inventory. So take your time, pick what's going to fit best for you long term. You know, it It's tough to see people come in with one idea and then kind of get stuck into something that they aren't using as much as they thought they would, or, you know, maybe doesn't fit the needs of their family. But, you know, that's part of what my role is to kind of help people figure out, you know, what's kind of the dream boat ownership scenario versus what's the practical boat ownership scenario. You know, if somebody is coming to me and saying, hey, we're going to do, you know, overnights every weekend and we're going to go to Mackinac Island and we're going to do this and do that. You know, it's, it's can be a conversation to kind of give them a sense of the reality of that. You know, it costs a lot to fill a boat with gas and make some of those long trips. You know, we kind of recommend what's your 90% use going to be rather than your 10% use. You know, you may only end up taking one trip all summer and doing an overnight or a long weekend. So it may not make sense to go with that cruiser style boat. You may get more enjoyment out of even a pontoon or a tritoon or a smaller open bow boat. So kind of having that, like I said, reality check conversation with the buyers is part of what makes a broker important.

Yeah, that knowledgeable expert to have a conversation with, and they can help you really narrow down. You know, I find that a lot when I'm trying to buy technical equipment, whether it's computers or whatever. Having a conversation with someone that can say, well, what are you going to use it for? And go back and forth, and then you settle in on something.

Yeah.

So, yeah. So we've already kind of talked about this, but are there any specific brands or models that are particularly well suited for the Traverse City area?

Sure. So I'm a big Boston Whaler fan. I, my wife and I have a small 180 Dauntless that we love. So those center consoles are something that are gaining in popularity up north. You know, a lot of people think of those as strictly fishing boats, which may be the case, you know, down south in the, you know, Florida, the Carolinas. But up here they serve really kind of a dual purpose. You get that adventure side if you want to take friends out fishing or whatever you can. But they're great for tubing. You know, they do tend to offer a better ride quality. So if you're out in a little bit of chop or, you know, catch some inclement weather, it's a more comfortable ride typically. So I really, you know, that's kind of my favorite style of boat, center consoles. Boston Whaler makes a great boat. Pursuit, Tierra Yachts is in that category as well. If you're strictly looking for something that is good for a large group of people, tri-tunes are really, you know, the way to go. They're just so much different than what you may have remembered if you grew up, you know, on a 20-foot pontoon 20 or 25 years ago.

New tri-tune means another thing in the middle, correct?

Yep. So instead of just the two, you've got that third tune in the middle. The ride is just so much different, and especially with that center tune, you can put bigger power on the back so you can really get into some of those water sports that that families like to do— tubing, skiing, wakeboarding. Even I've been out on a Tritune with friends and taken some guys wakeboarding. So, you know, that really checks a lot of boxes for people with larger families or if you think you're taking a group of, you know, 6, 8, 10 people out.

So yeah, yeah. Because as we— as I'm thinking about my next boat, I'm thinking about versatility being the number one thing, you know, being able to have when the kids or grandkids are a little jumping off, being able to also then go out with a couple of couples, just sure have some drinks on the boat. Uh, but also when the kids get a little older, then maybe trying to teach them how to water ski, right, and tube or whatever, right? Yeah. And a cabin cruiser is not the best for that, probably. Sure.

Yeah. And that's it.

But, but I'm not—

I'm also not going to Charlotte Amalie, and I try to Yeah, most likely not. And it just depends on where you're going to be using it too. You know, there's so many different styles and so many different sizes of pontoons and tritoons. If you're using a small inland lake, you're probably looking at something, you know, a pontoon might be fine. But if you are going to be on East Bay, West Bay, you know, boating at all on Lake Michigan, even like a Torch Lake, it's a bigger body of water, tritoon is definitely the way to go in my opinion.

How does the boating season in the Traverse City area affect the buying process? I mean, what do you— obviously there's an off-season, right?

Yeah, there's certainly an off-season. You know, the buying season really actually starts to heat up in, you know, call it February or March when some of those bigger, you know, statewide or regional boat shows happen. And those are specific typically to new boats, but that kind of gets people excited about the upcoming season, and that's when you see more activity on the buy side and even on the listing side. So if you know, is wanting to sell their boat, that's kind of when they're starting to look because they know they need to take advantage of kind of that pre-summer selling season. Because a lot of times if, you know, somebody has the idea to sell their boat end of June into July, buyers are looking at it like, oh, well, I only have a month left of time to use it. I'm just going to hold off until the next season. So it is important if you're, if you're entertaining the idea of selling I would suggest the earlier the better, just to take advantage of those people that are wanting to, you know, use whatever they're going to buy all summer.

What are the key considerations if someone's thinking about buying a boat and they're trying to decide, should I buy new or should I buy used?

Yeah, with new boats, I mean, there's warranty of varying lengths. So if you're, if you're, you know, somebody that's conscious about repair costs and that kind of thing, it can be an advantage to buy new. You're also not getting somebody else's mistake, so to speak. You know, it can be tricky with— given the amount of inventory out there, you might fall in love with something. Making sure you have a used boat inspected both mechanically and if need be, a marine survey is important to maybe uncover some of those things that had been overlooked from a service standpoint, you know, or even if somebody's run aground or something like that, and it may not be visibly apparent while you're conducting your buying process. To have an expert there to kind of look and notice those things is certainly important. You don't want to get caught with a boat that's got major issues that maybe aren't visible but couldn't be hidden and discovered by an inspection. So.

So you mentioned there seem to be at least two parts of an overall inspection, and that would be the inspection of the mechanical parts of the boat.. And then you said a marine survey, so I'm surmising that that means looking at the condition of the hull, looking at the, the overall boat, the structural integrity, if you will, of the overall boat, um, separate from how the engine's running.

Yep. So a mechanical inspection would be something that your local, uh, you know, dealer or boatyard should be able to conduct. You might do a compression test just to make sure that all the cylinders are firing correctly. You know, an inspection of the drive, they can do an oil test, that kind of thing, just to make sure the mechanical pieces of the boat are functioning as they should. And they will typically go through and check electrical systems as well. So, you know, if the boat has a chartplotter or a GPS unit, you know, is that functioning as it should? Whereas a marine survey is going to typically be for larger vessels for the most part. And the marine surveyor is going to come in and he's going to check the hull, check the stringers, those structural components to the boat to make sure there's no voids or things that are going to cause issues, you know, later on that, again, you might not be able to look at it with the naked eye, but a marine surveyor is going to come in and be able to find those things.

And then your role in that process is that, you know, you're— I imagine that the process would work similar to a real estate you know, that, that you go under contract either representing the buyer or the seller. There's then this, the possibility of a contingency within that contract for an inspection and a marine survey.

Yeah.

And then you decide after that's done, then the buyer has a choice within a certain number of days probably to renegotiate, accept it in its current condition, or walk away.

Yes.

And what do you see most often as a result of inspections? Sure.

You know, it's really all about setting expectations too. So both as the, you know, the listing broker or the selling broker, making sure that especially new boaters, folks that maybe are not— have not owned a boat before, really understand how the process works. So laying out that timeline, like you mentioned, hey, you're going to put a deposit down, we're going to have these contingencies, and contingencies might be a marine survey, they might be a mechanical inspection, they might be a lake test. Making sure they understand what that timeline is going to be, and then following through and communicating with both sides. You know, if you're representing the buyers, you're communicating with the listing broker. My job is also to introduce or, you know, provide contact information for surveyors if people don't bring their own to the deal. So I have that list and that, you know, ability to help them make those connections. Ultimately, the inspections and the surveyors are hired by the buyers to to represent them. So I'm really acting as a facilitator in all pieces of the potential deal.

So a lake test is similar to test driving a car, but then you take the boat out on the lake.

Yep. And that could be—

yep.

Yeah. Because, you know, again, if you're a new boater and you haven't been out on a boat in a long time or ever even, you want to take that out and make sure it's a, you know, a comfortable ride. Everything's working as it should. You know, everybody in the family is on board with that type or that style of boat. And that can be something that doesn't happen very frequently. But, you know, if you get to a lake test, typically you're probably going to follow through with the purchase unless something is totally, you know, out of whack with an engine or a drive or something. That's kind of the last step in the process almost before you close is to do that lake test.

Are you usually on the boat with them when they're doing the lake test if they're your client? Yes.

Yep. Yeah. Typically, if it's a used boat that's listed with me, you know, I'm representing this the seller if it's listed with me. So I'm going to be there throughout the process, make sure everything goes smoothly. You know, if I'm representing both sides of the deal, you know, ultimately we're trying to come to an agreement. And again, make sure everybody's on the same page, make sure all the steps in the process have been communicated. And then there is that potential to renegotiate the agreed-upon price based on the outcome of a lake test or a survey. But I'm really there, you know, again, boating is supposed to be fun, it should be a fun process. You shouldn't you know, end up with both sides being relatively happy.

So yeah. All right, so let's talk about the selling side.

Sure.

If someone's considering selling their boat, what steps do they need to take to prepare their boat for sale?

So, you know, one of the things that is really important, and I think this is not all that dissimilar to real estate where curb appeal is important, you know, if you're listing a home or selling a home, making sure your boat is visually appealing. Get it buffed and waxed, get it detail cleaned, Make sure the tires are pumped up if it's on a trailer. All of those things that, as a prospective buyer is approaching your boat, you know, it's not going to set off any alarms. If it's covered in leaves, it's got sap everywhere, it's got a flat tire, those are things that are just, you know, immediate red flags to potential buyers or, or, you know, brokers that are kind of doing a pre-inspection for you. So that curb appeal, so to speak, is really important. If you've owned the boat for a handful of years, having maintenance records Your service records can be make or break for some buyers. So, you know, typically if you're a high-use boater, you're doing 50, 60, 70 hours a summer, you know, having oil changes every year or at least every other season, lube, oil filter, all of those different things with the drives and engines is important. If you have a written record of that, that's something that a lot of buyers will ask for very early in the buying process. So to be able to provide that to you know, if it's, if it's me as the listing broker or the buyer, if you're going private sale, the private sale route, service history is very important.

Yeah, it is. I would think it was— it's a strong indicator for how well the boat was cared for previously, right?

Yeah.

Um, and if, if they don't have the service records and the boat doesn't look well kept, then it's not going to garner a premium price, right?

Yeah, exactly.

How can sellers determine the fair market value or how, how do you help the sellers? How is the fair market value determined of a used boat?

Yeah, again, not all that is similar to real estate. Um, you know, we're using online resources that for the most part are available to anyone, and, you know, it's not specific to a broker or a dealer, but YachtWorld, Boat Trader, Boats.com, even Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace. We're gathering a list of as many comps as we can find, comparable comparable boats, and it doesn't have to be that exact make and model, but a similar, you know, size, similar setup, similar make or model. Presenting that to the seller, having those conversations about what's been sold recently. You know, my experience going back 7 years now, you get a little bit of a history as far as previous sales that I may have conducted. So really it's just all about information. There are also sources out there similar to car sales, NADA, Kelley Blue Book values. Those are, or can be, a little misleading because they're not as, you know, up to speed as the current market. You know, that information may have been published in January, and now here we are in June, and the market could have changed, you know, pretty drastically for a used boat. So that's one of those things that it can be helpful to kind of find a very base price, but really you're looking at comps on the market, um, you know, at the time you're looking to list your for sale.

Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. You mentioned that about Kelley Blue Book, about that they're looking in the rearview mirror. I had an instance I had come across when I was— I represented a really good client, represented her on a few deals. She came across this for sale by owner off Little Traverse Lake, and the gal considering selling it for sale by owner, she had two lots, was gonna sell them Had it appraised by a professional appraiser, $250,000 each. She calls me and says, hey, Sander, you know, this for sale by owner gal doesn't want to deal with agents, but I want to get your opinion. I said, scoop that up for $250,000 just as quick as you possibly can. Well, at the 11th hour, the seller's sister comes in and says, nope, we're going to take it to the market. We're going to use an agent., and they used, uh, an agent that was a friend of, of theirs, and she listed it, I want to say, for $350,000 apiece, and they sold— both lots sold together for a total of $900,000. So the appraiser, similar to your Kelley Blue Book story about seeing the past, the, the appraiser's looking at comps that were 6 months to a year old, and the market had gone nuts in the meantime. And, and so, you know, that would— that's a lesson about paying. You know, people complain about the commission. They always— people in— whether they're working with both brokers or whatever, some just want to focus on what I'm paying that individual and feeling the cost of that. In this case, you know, I think they used an agent, would have cost them about $50,000, but they you know, they made $400,000 more, so they netted a total of $350,000. Is that working with an agent worth it?

You know, yeah, there is. Yeah, to, to an extent, you know, people have some success going the private sale route with boats. You know, you can put stuff on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace pretty easily yourself, but again, that, that idea of finding a value and putting it out to a broader spectrum of buyers is where a broker can come in handy. Yeah, and I, you know, I use the example a number of times where, um, you know, they may be talking to a couple different brokers or a couple different dealers, you know, they get one price from this person or that, that organization and another price from me or from a different broker. And it's one of those where it always feels good to end up at a sale price that was at or greater to the other person's listing price. So it's all about relationships trying to find the right person ultimately. But there is some additional value just with kind of the network that brokers can have.

So yeah, yeah. And I expect the people's boats, it's, it's a little bit— it's different from selling a car, although some people get attached to their automobiles too. But I would think it's more like selling a home that you can have some people— there's so many good memories on a boat that it can be kind of probably an emotional experience for some sellers.

I would say there's certainly more emotion involved because I've certainly had a number of times where people have approached me to sell their boat in tears, literally in tears, because they, you know, their kids grew up on it, they had such a great experience. Maybe it was, you know, inherited from a grandparent or something. Um, and yeah, that's— it's that emotional connection to boating and those memories are what people think about when they're getting ready to sell.

So yeah, I grew up on Northport Bay. My grandpa and Grandma Nelson had waterfront property on Sutton's Bay out at Stony point. And now all those properties are out of the family, and I feel that same way. Like, man, I was a spoiled little brat as a kid. I had no idea how spoiled I was, right, until, until now that I don't have access to those properties. Took it for granted, you know. Yeah. And I, I see that with some of the— like, I just sold a house on Northport Bay. It was owned by two aunts and two nieces, and it was, it was a really semi-traumatic experience because they had just reached a point where they couldn't afford to own it. Anymore, right? You know, and one of the two— the aunts wanted to sell because they were at an age where it made sense to do it. The nieces really didn't want to, but also understood. But it was very emotional for them. We already talked about time of year impacts. Um, what, what documentation or paperwork is really a necessary part of when considering selling a boat?

So again, going back to that service history is important. If you've got that, it just kind of helps If you're going private sale, helps you kind of organize your thoughts around how to promote the boat. Providing that to the listing broker is important. You know, other than that, it's— there's a listing agreement. Typically a place is going to ask for at least a copy of the title of the boat, title of the trailer if the trailer has a title. Up-to-date registration is important in the event that I'm, you know, if I bring a buyer to the table and the boat's not registered properly, legally I shouldn't take it out on a lake test. It should be registered. You know, if I take it out, it's not registered properly and I get pulled over, I'm in trouble, you're in trouble. So yeah, yeah, you know, making sure you're up to date on all those state requirements is important.

So obviously if you're representing a seller and their boat's outside of the registration period, that would be one thing you'd be telling them is you need to get the boat registered in order to properly sell this.

Yes. Yeah. And you know, understanding even in a used boat situation, if somebody comes to me and there's a lien on the boat, having all that proper documentation documentation from the bank is important, just so I'm aware of what I'm getting myself into, if there's a payoff, that kind of thing. So being able to represent that fairly to the prospective buyers is important.

Let's talk boat maintenance and storage. What are the— what are the essential maintenance tasks that new boat owners or people that are considering buying a boat— what are the essential maintenance tasks that they need to keep up on? You kind of already mentioned service history and kinds of things. But I mean, what, what should they be ready to do from a maintenance perspective before buying a boat?

Sure. Yeah, so it depends a little bit on use. Average number of hours that Northern Michigan boaters are going to put on their boat is maybe 20 to 30, which is pretty low. Myself, my wife and I, we're in that kind of 60 to 70 range every summer, the 3 summers that we've had our boat. With that number, that higher number, you know, if you're over 50 or 60 hours, you should probably be doing oil change, lower unit lube, you know, filters, all those things on your engine seasonally. You know, if you're less than that, every other year is recommended. If you start to stretch that out a little bit— engines are meant to run, they're meant to be used. So if a boat is sitting in a barn, you know, unused with the same gas, same oil, same lubes for 2 or 3 or 4 seasons, you know, that can start to be problematic. So again, it's a little bit dependent on usage, but for the most part, every season or every other year, you should be looking at doing some of those basic things like oil changes.

So, okay. What about winterizing boats in Northern Michigan? What goes into that?

So again, that depends a little bit on kind of what you're looking to get out of your storage. There's typically 3 storage options. So you can do indoor heated, which you don't need to, from a technical standpoint, winterize your boat. But there are some, again, depending on size, depending on number of engines, that kind of thing. There are some kind of maintenance items that would go into that. If the boat's got a water system, you know, they're going to flush all the water out of that and probably will put antifreeze in just in the event that your heated storage building loses power or something. It's not going to freeze. A cold storage building, you're going to get everything winterized, you know, if it's got a water system. Again, if it's an outboard engine, typically newer outboards are going to be self-draining, so there's not a huge amount of maintenance goes into that, but they can also get fogged, and there is a process for that. Um, you know, so again, it's a little up to you as the owner, kind of, if you want to go above and beyond, you're getting it fully winterized at that time. You're probably going to get your oil changed, you're going to do the filters and lube again. Or if you're doing outdoor storage, you know, it's all of those winterization things in addition to being shrink-wrapped. And the cost of those can vary pretty wildly from dealer to dealer or from storage yard or boatyard to boatyard. So shop around, you know, try to find something that is, is licensed and insured. Obviously, you don't necessarily want to be taking it to somebody that's just doing it out of their garage unless they're a friend and you kind of know their background. But there are so many options in Northern Michigan to, to go and have those storage and end-of-season services done. You know, certainly shop around and find, you know, and that's also a value add that you can provide because, you know, so yeah, I can do a little bit of the vetting for that. I do have some kind of handshake agreements with service and storage yards around the area at the moment, but a lot of that is just having worked with them for the last 7 years, you know, getting to know the work that they do. So I can certainly make recommendations with those.

What financing options are you aware of for people considering purchasing a boat?

Yeah, if you're going new or used through a dealer, typically dealers are going to have an internal F&I person, not all that dissimilar from a car dealership. My recommendation is typically, you know, go check with your bank or credit union first. Just, you've got an existing relationship. There are places that maybe don't do boat loans, but for the most part, the banks and credit unions here locally that I'm aware of do offer those services. Get a quote, get a quote from your bank, your credit union. You can take that back to the dealer and just kind of compare notes and compare costs. Um, you know, if it's a private sale situation, same idea. You can go to your credit union and get those numbers. That's something I did when we bought our boat. You know, I financed a piece of it. I just went to Lake Michigan Credit Union where I had my mortgage at the time, car loan, and just got a little bit of a discount because I had those other things with, with Lake Michigan Credit Union.

So yeah, okay. You said F&I. Does that mean financing and insurance? Yep. An internal F&I? Yeah.

Yeah, internal F&I. And again, you can do insurance the same way, you know, if you've got your auto loan or home loan— or I'm sorry, auto insurance or home insurance with a broker or something, you know, give them a shot at giving you a good number on the, on the boat insurance as well.

That's where the big bundle comes in.

You bundle and save, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. So lifestyle and community, what are the best boating destinations in Northern Michigan?

Sure. Here locally, if you're a boater out on West Bay, Power Island is the spot. Everybody talks about Power Island. If you go out there on a Saturday or Sunday in July or August, there's, you know, 100, 200 boaters out there enjoying the sandbar out there. Torch Lake is the other one that people outside of the area kind of flock to, and I know a lot of locals will tend to avoid that at certain times of the summer, but it's a beautiful spot. One of the fun things about being in Northern Michigan and being on what I'll call the big lake, you know, being on Lake Michigan, You can go from Traverse City to Sutton's Bay to Northport over to Charlevoix, you know, again, if you've got a big enough vessel. So there's just so many options to get out and explore and see Northern Michigan from an angle that you wouldn't normally, you know, if you're just driving around the area and checking things out from the road.

Are there any boating clubs or organizations locally?

Yeah, you'll find there's kind of some informal cruising clubs. You know, there's a group of friends here at the marina just north of us. You identify them because they've all got burgees with their club logo on them, but they'll go out and do a couple cruises every summer. It's not— I don't know that it's exclusive necessarily, other than, you know, it's just folks from that marina for the most part. So there are those informal groups or organizations. I'm not really aware of any dealer— a lot of dealers used to put on a cruise typically late summer where the dealership would organize that. That's kind of gone by the wayside a little bit since all the, you know, COVID the last couple years. Um, but yeah, you know, there's nothing stopping you from getting a group of friends together and planning a cruise or planning an anchorage for a day.

Yeah. Are there any events or festivals that really are must-go-to in a boat? I know a lot of people like to go out in their boat and watch the fireworks. Yeah, fireworks, that kind of thing.

Yeah, fireworks. I, I have done this in the past, but during Cherry Festival here in Traverse City, it can be fun to go anchor off the open space. You can't really see the concerts necessarily, but you can listen to the concerts and just kind of hang out there for the afternoon. Um, you know, there are local boat shows. The Bay Harbor Boat Show is coming up in mid-June. That's a fun one just to kind of go and experience. On-water boat shows are a little more fun than, you know, visiting a convention center. Yeah, sure, sure.

So that's in Petoskey.

Yeah, it's Father's Day weekend, I think, so it's a a good opportunity.

There's a boat show just in that marina there.

Yeah, Bay Harbor Lake Marina. There's probably a dozen or so dealers that bring new boat inventory. There might be some used boats up there too, but kind of— it's a beautiful setting, obviously, and there's a lot of fun stuff.

Um, yeah, cool.

In the water.

Okay, legal and regulatory questions. What are the key boating laws and regulations in Michigan that both buyers and sellers need to be aware of?

Sure, I think the big one is kind of circling back to that idea of having the boat properly registered. There are folks that want to try to take advantage of registering their boat in a different state or something where, you know, maybe there's a tax advantage to that. But in the state of Michigan, if the boat's going to live here, it needs to be registered in the in-state. You need to pay your state registration fees. It needs to have your MC number on the side of the boat. You can also— and this kind of more specific to larger vessels, but get what's called a Coast Guard registration, which is a little more intensive of a process. But that's one way to register your boat without having to go through the state of Michigan. You— those boats don't have those MC numbers on the side. They're typically going to have their Coast Guard registration number somewhere on the inside of the interior of the vessel. But yeah, the big one I would say is making sure your registration's up to date. You've got the correct year stickers on your boat.

Boat.

If it's a trailer boat, making sure you've got the trailer plate. I know a lot of folks try to take advantage of not registering their trailer just because they may only use it 1 or 2 times this summer, but they just hope they don't get caught. Yeah, hoping they don't get pulled over, you know, from their barn to the lake to launch the boat or whatever. So, you know, it's a relatively nominal fee, you might as well just do it. And then, you know, yeah, right, right, take the risk.

Maybe that's their little piece of adventure in their lives. Yeah, see if you feel like they can get away with it, right?

Yeah, you're going a mile and a half to the launch, So they're taking their chances.

Yeah. Trends and future of boating. What are— do you see any current trends in the boating industry?

Yeah, I, you know, we've kind of— we've slowed down on the sales side for sure. People are, like I said earlier, kind of hanging on to their current boats a little longer, possibly. New boats have just gotten so expensive. You know, there's a lot of new inventory sitting around. But as far as trends, you do see a little bit of a trend towards electric boats. Elk Rapids Marina here locally has a couple electric boat lines.

Really?

I don't have any experience taking those boats out, but you know, you do see a little bit more of that. It can be a little bit of a hassle right now because there's not the same infrastructure for charging and that kind of thing. So that's one of those considerations you'd have to make if you are looking at an electric version of the Minn-Krämer model you're looking at.

So yeah, I heard— I think it was on AM580— them talking about electric vehicles that are on, let's say, a ferry, you know, like the, the Badger going over to Wisconsin. And that when these electric cars start on fire, like, they can just randomly start on fire because they're parked, and you can't put that fire out.

Yeah.

And, uh, and that they were talking about that, and my mind went to the Badger because I, I had taken that a couple different times last summer and thinking to myself, man, if an electric car bursts into flames on the Badger, what are they going to do? Sure. And I wonder if the same thing— I mean, obviously if you're out in the boat, maybe you just need to jump overboard, right, or something. But yeah, you're probably not going to burn down with it.

But no, I— and I don't know, you know, I should probably do a little more research on the electric boat side of things, but I, I just don't know. I've not read or heard of any, you know, experiences people have had locally with battery fires or anything. But, um, you know, most newer boats are going to come with automated fire extinguisher systems too, so I would imagine there might be something similar for electric boats. But again, I know what you're referring to where those, I think, lithium-ion batteries are, yeah, you know, near impossible to put out. Most folks are going to have available to them for fire extinguishing.

Yeah, yeah. But what advancements in boat technology have you seen lately?

Yeah, so the, the electric boat side is one for sure. There's actually some systems out there now for self-docking. So if you've automotive, the automotive industry, parallel parking, but for boats, same, same idea. You can really, you know, there's— it's a combination of kind of GPS control if you're, if your boat's got a bow thruster, or the IPS systems, which are pods which operate independently of each other. You can hit the essentially a park button and it'll, it'll sideways dock itself. So a lot of the newer bigger boats have the joystick systems on them. You're starting to see those a little more on you know, like sub-30-foot vessels down to you. Rather than a wheel, it will still have the steering wheel, but it also has just a literal joystick where you can, you know, you twist it and the boat shifts sideways or it spins in place. So there's all sorts of cool systems, um, you know, Garmin is kind of the big one that I think most people are familiar with, but Volvo engine systems are kind of at the forefront of those self-docking, self-piloting Let's go back to first-time boat buyers.

What are some common mistakes that first-time boat buyers make?

Sure, you know, really the big one is I go back to that idea of, you know, you should be looking to buy the boat that fits your 90% use case rather than your 10% use case. You know, you get people who come in and they have this, this grand idea, and I'll speak to a recent example where customer comes in they have this dream of doing the Great Loop. You know, they've never owned a boat, they've never, you know, even been on any sort of overnight boating trip, and yet they want to go from the Great Lakes down to Florida and back up through the Mississippi River. Probably not the best thing for a first-time boat buyer to try to, you know, take on themselves. So buy something a little smaller, buy something that's going to fit that use where you're, you know, you're out on West Bay a handful of times a year, just out for the day with your family, that's your 90% use. Your 10% or even less in this instance is that, that idea of doing that big, you know, multi-month long boat trip. So that's kind of an extreme example, but yeah, pick something that's gonna check all those boxes or more boxes for your family.

Yeah. What are some tips for negotiating the best price or for getting a boat at the best price?

Yeah, so like I mentioned, right now the, the new boat market is slowed Uh, you know, the dealers are sitting on a lot of inventory. A lot more rebates are happening on the back side, so manufacturers are offering rebates to new boat dealers and buyers.

So that's right there, knowing the market.

Knowing the market.

In this case, right now, probably it's a better market for buyers to look at new than used because people are hanging on to their used.

Yeah, you know, I would say the, the new boat market is still so, you know, kind of out of whack just because prices have risen so much in the last 4 years. You're still looking at a very hefty price tag even with some of those rebates and incentives coming from manufacturers. But, you know, yeah, if it's not a price point issue, absolutely. Maybe you're thinking used, look new right now because there are a lot of dealers that are looking to, you know, offload inventory and place their orders for the next model year. Used stuff, you know, just take your time and find what's what's going to fit your use. There's a lot of inventory out there, private sale, you know, a lot of stuff listed with brokers. So it is certainly a buyer's market right now. Take your time, find what's gonna be the best use for your family.

So when someone's thinking about buying, the focus is going to be on the purchase price. You've already mentioned several times the different things that you recommend in terms of a maintenance schedule. So from a budgeting perspective What should a first-time boat buyer have in mind about what maintenance and other costs are going to do other than just what the boat's price tag is?

Yeah, so, you know, again, it depends a little bit on, you know, where your mind is at as far as what type of storage or what type of off-season maintenance program you're going to implement. But on a very basic level, typically storage is going to be on a square foot basis, you know. So if it's indoor heated storage, it's going to be X amount of dollars multiplied by the width and length of your boat. If there's a trailer involved, that's typically added on there as well. Same for cold storage, you know, that's going to be a little less than heated storage, obviously. And then again, it's same thing for most outdoor storage facilities too. They're charging based on square footage of your boat. You know, they've got a finite amount of space on their lot, so they're trying to maximize the amount of you know, revenue they're generating. But again, shop around. You know, you can find places that are maybe a little priced a little more competitively for all three of those type of storage options. And same with the maintenance side of things too. You know, some of them are going to wrap that into storage where it's just a flat rate for winterization and storage. Some of them are going to have it as an à la carte service where they're pricing each individual service option and storage as separate piece. So, you know, gather all that information, ask those questions— what's included, what's not included— make sure you're, you know, well informed before you go and sign those storage contracts.

Okay, so environmental sustainability and kind of just environmental impact of boating type questions, um, what, what do boat owners need to be aware of in terms of, just being a good steward of the environment while they use their boat?

Yeah, I mean, the big one is making sure, you know, from time to time you might have a leak, whether that's from your drive or, you know, you spill a little gas at the fuel dock. Being really conscientious about getting those cleaned up and being, you know, a good steward of the environment is important. You know, a couple seasons ago I noticed there was a slight sheen on the water behind my boat. Come to find out I needed to have some work done on the trim assembly, you know, doing that in a timely manner so you're not polluting the, you know, the marina or the lake environment is important. But typically, I mean, it's pretty visible, you know, if you see fuel on the water, it's going to expand and expand quickly. So identifying that source or that cause is important to do sooner than later. Yeah.

And then what about, I mean, I know, you know, it's been a while since I have been boating, but, you know, wasn't as much of a thing back, you know, 20, 25 years ago when I was boating. But now I'm seeing wash stations at different places. What are those invasive species? What are we trying to avoid by washing the boat before you— after you take it out, before you put it back in a different place?

Yeah, there's been a big push on a lot of inland lake associations, um, to have those wash stations implemented. For that reason. So you're not going from, you know, you may pick up some invasive species on one lake, you know, you're headed to a different lake the next day. That association obviously doesn't want those invasive species in their, their body of water, so they've implemented those wash stations so that you can really thoroughly clean the bottom of your boat, clean your engine off, you know, if it's a PWC, same thing, hose those off good, get them cleaned up before they dump in that next lake.

So PWC is personal watercraft.

Yep. Yeah, Sea-Doo, Yamaha, jet skis.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Do you happen to know— I know I'm putting you on the spot— do you happen to know what some of those invasive species are?

Yeah, milfoil is the one that kind of popped into my brain because I think they had a little bit of an issue on Lake Leelanau with that here locally.

Yeah.

And the, you know, they've come up with some pretty creative solutions where they're putting tarps of some description over big sections of the lake to block sunlight to then kill those, you know, invasive species at the bottom of the lake. So I think, you know, unfortunately once those things are in the body of water, it's hard to fully eliminate them. But a lot of those places, and the DNR is included in that, are taking steps to, you know, remedy or fix that.

So is there anything I didn't ask that you'd like to share with the viewers?

You know, really, we're here, uh, so my office is here at Center Point Marina in Traverse City. I'm happy to chat, talk boating if you want to stop by. There's a handful of other dealers and brokers in the building, so it's a, it's a great, you know, boating community here. You've got the 3 marinas right in a row, um, Harbor West, Center Point, and then Elmwood Township Marina.

Yeah, so let's talk about that. So Harbor West, I sold a dock in Harbor West, um, about a year ago. Okay. Went for $140,000. And so that's a private marina?

Private marina, yep. Those are condo slips essentially with, you know, kind of the marina equivalent of an HOA. So there's monthly dues, there's assessments potentially if they're looking to make improvements throughout the entire marina. So yeah, Harbor West is a privately—

and is Center Point also—

Center Point is private, but there's a parent company that owns the office building that we're sitting in right now and the marina itself. So all of the slips that you see here at Center Point are leased, so they're, they're not owned by individuals, they're owned by the parent company we have this office complex, and then those individuals are leasing them from the—

okay, that company. And then you have Elmwood Township.

Elmwood Township Marina is a publicly owned marina owned by Elmwood Township here on, you know, that kind of northwest side of Traverse City. And those are similar in that they're leased season to season from the township. So that government entity owns Elmwood Township Marina. And typically you as an individual, you know, if you— if your name comes up on the waitlist or whatever, that's your slip until you decline it, or then you go to the bottom of the list. Then you go to the bottom.

My brother's been on the list for a slip in the Northport Marina for 20 years. Okay.

Yeah, you know, some of the public marinas will actually publish their lists if you go on the website, and you can see exactly where you would be at if you were to sign up to get on the waitlist. And for the most part, yes, they're multi-year, you know, probably a minimum of 4 or 5 years.

Sort of like the Chinese proverb, the best time to have planted a tree, or in this case to have signed up to get on the boat slip, was 20 years ago. Yes. The second best time is today. Today. Yeah.

And I, you know, here at Center Point, we can help with that process. But, you know, if you're interested in getting on at Elmwood or even Clinch Harbor Marina down in Traverse City, do it today.

Yep, yep, yep, yep, for sure. Even if, you know, you like— when the one that I sold, I sold it to a guy I've known for a lot of years, and he didn't have a boat, you know, yet, but he want— you know, he's one of those guys, he's gonna buy the sled before he buys the boat.

Make sure you got a spot.

Yeah, make sure you have a spot for sure. Yeah, so basically, if anyone's considering either selling a boat that they've had or they're looking to buy a boat and they want some expert guidance through that process, reach out to you.

Yeah, and I, you know, I'm happy to chat if you end up wanting to go private sale. Totally understand that. But I do think there's an advantage of having somebody who has some experience in the industry. And so right now, kind of my focus for the most part is on brokerage listings and sales, but I do right now have a partnership in, in process for a brand of new pontoons, a new pontoon line here complete. And then I, I have a kind of the same handshake agreement right now in place with a company that sells a big center console line.

So, so you're also kind of a dealer in those types of lines?

Yeah, it's not that formal quite yet, but I do have access to a brand of new pontoons, a new pontoon line, which I can talk about, you know, if you want to give me a call. And then same for center consoles, so 28 to about 41 feet if you're interested in a big center console.

So it's not something you can really talk about on public YouTube, but if, if people want to find out more, they need to just chat with you individually.

Yeah, they're kind of handshake agreements at this point. I'm working on—

you don't want to jeopardize that.

Yeah, but potentially millions of viewers that I have on my YouTube right now. It's exciting. And then hopefully for calendar year 2025, we'll have something a little more formal and concrete in place. But I do have access to a couple lines of new votes as well.

So, yeah, awesome. Well, Sanders, I appreciate it. Actually, we should— I should put this in there. But, you know, you and I used to work together at Traverse City Area Public Schools. I was an elementary principal. You were in charge of early childcare. And, you know, if you still— I think maybe now since I have moved out of education and I'm in real estate, and there's been enough activity there. It used to be you Googled my name and Westwoods, and that violation that we had came up with a kid who escaped, right? You know, and oh gosh, that, uh, was so scary.

Uh, it all turned out well, you know, but, um, well, and I have a quick story too, just with the name similarity. So my now wife, uh, Claire, her uncle Ron emailed us the week before we got married to congratulate Sander Scott and Claire because he's, you know, he's getting up there in age and knew your name because he's a local gentleman, but mixed up our names. And actually, I probably still have the email, said congrats to Sander Scott for marrying his niece Claire. So there's that, that tie-in and confusion. Out there as well.

Yeah, yeah, you know, because my last name is Scott, people often call me Sanders because when I introduce myself, I— so now I've gotten to the point where I really put an extra long pause in them. I say, yeah, what's your name? It's Sander. And if I'm, if I'm feeling, you know, if I'm going in to buy something or whatever, sure, Sander. And Sander is my first name.

Yeah.

And then Scott. But, you know, if I say Sander Scott, they hear Sanders as the That's the first name.

But, and I do, I, for, it's probably 50/50, but I also go by Sandy as well. That's how, you know, if my mom calls me Sandy, my brother calls me Sanders, and, you know, everywhere in between. But it's probably about 50/50, so I get either or is fine. It's both are on my business card, so.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. But I bet you people don't call you Fry.

No, typically not. No, typically.

Yeah, see, everybody calls me Scott. Yeah, I'll say my name, hi Scott, you And, you know, my brother said to me one time— my brother's name is Steve, Stephen— and, um, he says, you know, I understand why people do that to you because you've got, you know, what, what most people would consider probably more of a traditional last name, which was Sander. He said, but I can't figure out why they do it to me, right? You know, and Scott is just such a name that people hang on to as a first name. Right, but he'll introduce himself as Steve Scott and they'll say, nice to meet you, Scott. You know, sorry. Anyway, there are two other Sander— they don't have an S at their name, they share my name. One of them is the Sander Van Ocker.

Okay.

Or no, I'm sorry, that's a TV personality. Sander Waxtein. Dr. Sander Waxtein, who's a child psychiatrist. I think he prescribed— no, maybe psychologist. I can't remember if he prescribes medicine or not, but, and then there was a medical doctor that practiced for a short time up in Northport, Dr. Sander or something. And when I went in with my son, I made note of that and he said, well, actually, and I said, there's only one other Sander that I know of in the area, and that's Dr. Sander Westin. And he says, well, that's my son-in-law. Interesting. Yeah. Tight little circle there. But anyway, yeah, boats, boats. Give you a call, right?

Stop by Center Point and let's talk boats.

Yeah. And so that's one thing— this always appeared, by the way, Center Point is the building with the seagulls on it.

Yes.

You know, that for, for years and years I drive by this building, I never knew what to call it, you know. But it's the big seagull building that is up against the marinas.

And I think the full name is Center Point Marina and Office complex. Okay. So yeah, there's a big— the office complex here, there's a bunch of CPAs, attorneys, there's a handful of both, you know, dealers and brokers.

You have an awesome view.

Yeah, it's a great, great spot to be in the summer for sure.

Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, thanks a lot.

Yeah, appreciate it. All right.