Home Inspection Tips for Northern Michigan Buyers

If you think about the things that we look for, we're going to look at the foundation, the roof, the mechanicals, and the waste system. You just brought up two really good points. The first one you said is that line, that's the responsibility of the homeowner, and they actually own that line. And if something does come up, go back to your realtor. And you just mentioned something really important that we've learned over the years. You mentioned a client is buying a very old home. A lot of people don't think about this, but if it was actually put together before 1980, it probably has asbestos in it.

Are there any other kind of red flags that buyers should be looking for? Yes, well, let's talk about the niche of waterfront homes.

There's no such thing as black mold. There are species of mold that can make you very sick.

Thank you, Tim, for joining us. We're rolling, so let's get going. Alright, thanks, Andrew.

Good to see you.

Thanks for having me come in. Look at that, lasted half a second. So yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to talk about home inspections. And you know, we've done every one of my home inspections that I've been a part of with my clients, they've been done by you.

Well, thank you.

Thank you very much. So actually, no, with the exception of one, because you guys had already done the inspection and my client wanted a different look, and I kind of told him, I said, you know, I don't know that it's worth having a second one. He insisted. Turns out that he was able— we were able to get the inspection that you did.

Okay.

He compared it to the one that he did, and the one that he got missed quite a few things. And so that's credit to you.

Good to hear.

That's good. That's one of the reasons I've heard they find too many things wrong and they can kill deals, and I'm like, well, The last thing I want is for my clients to, you know, for something to have been missed and they buy something and then they're disappointed with it, you know. So I appreciate how thorough your guys are, your company is, and its inspections. So great. Yeah, let's dive into that. First thing is, can you just start off by telling us a little bit about yourself, Traverse City Home Inspections, how long you've been doing it?— and if you've got anything else that sets your company apart other than what I just mentioned.

Sure, well, we've been doing this home inspections for a little over 13 years now, and I got in it at that time. I had actually had a friend that was getting out of the business. He was about 10 years senior to me. He'd been an inspector for many years, and we were just talking over lunch one day, and he was talking to me about it. I have a building background, and it was a good fit for us. I'm fortunate in that I have a number of gentlemen that work for me as home inspectors that have been with me for many years, almost since the beginning. So all my guys have been with me for a long time. And as far as what makes us a little different, I've always prided myself in getting people to work for me that have different backgrounds. So for example, I have an HVAC technician that works for me. He's an excellent young man, does a lot of inspections really good, has a lot of attention to detail. He's also— he does radon mitigation for us as well. And his name's Evan, and Evan is fantastic. I have another gentleman that has a really strong background in water and water quality and systems that you'd put in a home to reduce the iron content. He's just excellent, and it seems to be the longer we're in business, that comes up more and more, Sander, that water is a big, big concern for a lot of people. Maybe they didn't grow up in the Traverse City area. We take our water and our resources for granted, A lot of other people from other parts of the country, they don't. And then when they come to this area and see all this fresh water, they want to know, is it safe to drink? So that's another background that we have. And then I have another gentleman that has a strong background in roofing. He's done roofing for years and he's an inspector now. He's been with me for— since the very beginning as well, and he's just an excellent inspector. And then I inspect too. So we currently have 4 inspectors on the team. I have admin, a VA, And then that's basically our team. And we currently go from Petoskey all the way down to Ludington. That's our service area. So anything within that corridor, we'll entertain and help people out. And that's what we do. So, but we—

How far east do you go?

We stay west of I-75. Okay. So, and we'll go to Grayling, we're on the border there. We will go to Gaylord as well. A lot of activity in Gaylord, for example. Gaylord is one of the, if you pull up a map of Michigan the incidence of radon, Gaylord has some of the highest recorded levels in the state of Michigan. So it's, it's very hit and miss with radon, and that's kind of how we got into it, because there's opportunity there that a lot of people don't know exists. There's more elevated radon in our area than we ever knew about. So, so that's just a kind of a thumbnail sketch.

Yeah, I, I, I was surprised. I showed a couple of homes out in Williamsburg that already had systems systems in them, radon mitigation systems.

Right, right.

Which, as I understand it, since you're now installing those, you not only inspect for it, but you will also install the system.

Yeah, that's our newest addition to our portfolio, if you will, is radon mitigation system install, and we've always tested for radon with continuous monitors, but we didn't really understand for a long time how common it was until we just started testing a lot more, and it turns out If you look at the, the EGLE website, the Michigan website, you'll find it's in our area, it's about 10 to 24% of homes have elevated radon. So that's basically, we saw that opportunity and we got into that at the beginning of last year.

And radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer.

It is, yeah.

And what is, what is considered an elevated level?

Well, according to the EPA standard, anything 4 picocuries or higher should be mitigated.

Picocuries, that's the, that's the unit of measure?

Yes, it's the unit of measure. It's actually a liter of air, and that's what we measure with a continuous monitor device that we use. So anything higher than that— the good thing I always tell people if they're ever concerned about radon, we've never found a home that we couldn't mitigate to a safe level. It's very easy to fix, so if someone's overly concerned about it, we kind of You know, talk it down because we've never found a problem that we couldn't take care of. And it's basically a vacuum cleaner, so basically all you're doing is you're sucking this gas from underneath your concrete floor out of the home where it dissipates into the environment. So it's pretty easy to take care of.

So the reason radon is an issue is, first of all, it's a naturally occurring gas that's like an off-gassing of a particular rock or something.

It is, exactly. It's from uranium broken down over millions of years and —And for some reason it's higher in some areas than others. And the problem that we have as inspectors, people always ask, "Am I going to have a radon problem?" Well, no one knows. You just have to test for it because it's invisible and you can't smell or taste it, so you just have to test for it.

And then essentially, it's my understanding, you— so you say it's a vacuum cleaner, you basically are punching a hole in the concrete— Yep. —and then sucking the the radon so that it's not— you give it somewhere else to go, which is sucked through the system and then out. That's exactly right. And it's diluted. Yeah. Whereas if it remains in the basement, it kind of— that's where the concentrated level can kind of accumulate, right? It is.

It does. And the reason for that, it's about 7.5 times heavier than oxygen, so when it comes into your home, it's pulled into your home because the pressure's different below your home than it is inside, and it just pulls it into the house, and because it's heavier, it just lays. We hardly ever find elevated radon in a higher level of a home. It's always in the lowest livable area, and that's where we test. Okay. So, yeah.

Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. Sort of like the requirement or the code restriction of having a basement at a lower level because of gas fumes. That's right. Similar concept to get. It is. Yeah. Why is a home inspection important for a buyer? And then also, why would it be important for a seller? And I have a comment about from a seller's perspective that it worked out really well for my seller to have an inspection up front.

You just asked a number of really good questions with that. So the first thing is, when you're buying a property, if you think about inflation and how it affects everything we do, all the components of a home are much more expensive than they used to be. So I always tell people, the price of our average home inspection is around $500. So if you think about what you could find in a home that would cost you $500, it doesn't take much. Um, water heaters are very commonly replaced nowadays. If you put a new 40-gallon hot water heater, which is the most common size out there, you're going to pay $1,500 to $2,000 to to have a new one put in and an old one taken out. So there, you just covered your home inspection fee. And just one example, I tell people, it's whatever you want us to do, but in a perfect world, we're going to give you information you may or may not know about your home, and you can take our information, work with your realtor, and negotiate what's best for you. In regards to a, a seller, many people will have us do a pre-listing inspection, and that's for Not everybody, but a certain client, for example, that really takes great pride in their property, they really want their property to get the best value in the market that they can have. So what we'll do is we will perform a similar inspection, we'll go through the house, we'll point out things that might need to be upgraded or repaired, and before that home actually goes to market, the home is ready for sale. And that, we've learned over the years, that will eliminate a lot of give and take from the buyer and the seller that can occur. It just makes the transaction run much smoother.

Yeah, and that's— it was actually my brother was my client in this case, and we anticipated a bidding war just because of where the market was at that time. We had you guys come in, do an inspection, and we didn't do that with the idea of really fixing anything necessarily. Certainly he would have had there been something glaring. But he really did it with the idea that when we did have multiple offers, we were able to go back to them, each one of those multiple offers, and say, here's the home inspection done by a reputable inspection company in Traverse City, you guys. Here's the inspection, now come back with an offer that is not contingent upon inspection because we've given it to you. Right. And that eliminated that, you know, it's a strategy that a lot of buyers want to use is using the results of the inspection for another bite at the apple of negotiation. It gives them a second negotiation, shot at negotiations. And in this case, it was sort of a preemptive move. You know, as a real estate agent, if I'm representing a buyer, my strategies are going to be different than when I'm representing a seller. In this case, we wanted to kind of use it as a way to avoid that second negotiation session. So the most common issues you encounter during home inspections in the areas that you cover, and, you know, have you ever found a perfect home? Um, close, close.

Really? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. You know, that's a great question. I get it often. I think if you think about the things that we look for, what are the most common things? And I always tell people there's 4 of them for the most part. So if you think about any home, and we do commercial properties too, so this would fit in that arena as well. But if you think about most properties, we're going to look at the foundation, the roof, the mechanicals, and the waste system. So those are the big 4. If those 4 components of the property are in good shape, you probably have a pretty good house. Now, there's a lot of things that cost money, as you well know— windows, appliances. You can throw a lot of things in that, that mix. But those 4 things that we really want to give a lot of attention to so that we know those are in good condition. And as far as what impacts those things the most, it's water. So you think about anything in our environment, it always comes down to water. Water moves foundation walls, water causes roof leaks. There's all kinds of things that can occur because of water, and that's the biggest concern that we have.

Do you see, speaking of water, do you see issues where there's not gutters? Installed in the home, and there really should have been because over time water is shedding off of the roof, hitting a deck, and splashing back. Absolutely. Should it be— should that be kind of a red flag for a buyer?

Absolutely. And that's something that you don't have to be a home inspector. You could be a realtor like you, you could be a home buyer. When you first go to a property, I always tell people, look at the grading around the foundation walls and look for a good drainage system around like a gutter system with downspouts. I would say the majority of homes, when we go in them, if there's a damp basement, it's because of lack of proper grading and a lack of a gutter system. And those are two pretty darn easy things to fix. So just those items alone will take care of most moisture issues in homes.

Yeah, or what I've noticed too is, you see stuff growing out of their gutter. Yeah.

'Cause they haven't cleaned the gutter for years. If you have trees and shrubs growing onto your gutter, that's a red flag. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

And speaking of your— an inspection that you did in downtown Traverse City, and I've got a separate interview when this is playing, I'll tag it, I'll have a card to take you to that clip from that video, but you guys did a sewer line inspection. This was a home that was connected to the Traverse City sewer system, so municipal sewer, but I think it's— this is something that I always want to point out to my clients, they think, well, I don't have to— I don't have any waste worries because I'm connected to a municipal sewer, and they don't really realize that to get this waste from their home to the sewer main is the homeowner's responsibility. Absolutely. And we inspected that line and found that it was a new line up about halfway to the city main, and then the rest was old clay that was deteriorating. And that was— turned out to be a— we got two quotes. One, um, one was $14,000 and the other was $9,000. And it was a little more expensive because they had to shut down a city street. Oh wow. Because the sewer main was in the middle of the, of the street, so they had to shut that down. Anyway, that cost $9,000. So to the point of the little bit of an add-on of getting that sewer line scoped, because you guys just send a little tool down there. We do.

We just put endoscopic camera down the line, and you made up— you just brought up two really good points. The first one you said is that line, that's the responsibility of the homeowner, and they actually own that line with the house. So the key date to remember is 1980 on the west side of the state, After, or before 1980, most homes have the old clay tiles, unless they've been replaced, and they've been replaced, or the new ones have PVC pipes. We hardly ever see problems with PVC pipes, but the clay, as you know, what happens is it leaks over time. So it has 3-foot sections that they used to put it down with, and those sections leak. They almost always leak. The problem is tree roots in most cases. So are those tree roots that are close by, are they gonna be attracted to that moisture they're gonna get in there, they're gonna break those tiles, and that's, that's what we're trying to avoid.

Yeah, so yeah. What should buyers expect during the home inspection process? Can you walk us through a typical inspection?

Sure, so I think one of the most important things we do, either I answer the phone or my admin answers the phone, the first question— this is probably as far as having a successful experience or a nice experience from the home inspection— is to find out what concerns a client might have. I can just tell you, 9 times out of 10, they're not a big deal. It's just probably something they had happen in a previous property they owned, and they don't want to go through that experience again. So we try to find that out. A lot of people say, "I don't have any concerns, everything look good." But if there is something, we want to make sure we address it during the inspection so we can put them at ease. And so that's the first thing, we want to get as much information from the client as we can. And then we encourage people to attend their inspection. It doesn't always work. It's always a good idea if they're out of town that they have a friend or relative come on their behalf. That's, that's helpful too. Even if they don't come, what we'll do is we'll follow it up with a phone call when we send the report out. We usually send our reports out about 1 hour after the inspection, so it's a very quick process. But we want them to have as much information as they need. If anyone ever backs out of a deal, we don't know, we don't always get that information. So we want to stay close to people and find out if we can help them along the way. And if something does come up that, that concerns them, what I always tell people is, we're just the inspectors. We report on what we find. You take that information, go back to your realtor. Your realtor is the expert. That's why you hired them. They're going to work on your behalf. And a lot of people, for some reason, forget that. But we want them to stay engaged with you so that they're helped, and then it goes from there. So that's pretty much who we are.

We do. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And then a kind of a— when you talk about that back and forth, what, what often happens, at least when I'm helping my clients, because my son's a licensed builder, my oldest, who's gonna give me my second grandchild here soon, and my younger son's a house painter. And then I've also got connections with, you know, I'll call Story Roofing, for example, if there's concerned about roofing because often, like, you guys just did a home inspection on a, on a really— I think it was built in the 1860s in Northport. It was one of the original homes. Sure. And it had a lot of stuff going on with the roof, and they wanted to know, okay, if I have to replace the roof, how much is that going to cost? Sure. So it does often lead to get that inspection report, and it often leads to work that I'm doing on behalf of my clients to ascertain getting quotes to address the various defects that you found during your inspection.

And you just mentioned something really important that we've learned over the years. You mentioned a client is buying a very old home, and so a lot of times when we consult with a client for the first time over the phone, we'll say— and we'll notice, we'll pull it up on MLS and we'll go through the house, the pictures that are available online— we'll often ask people Have you ever lived in an old home before? And people will say no, and I say, let me help you with that. Because when you go to an older home, chances are the floors may not be perfectly level, there might be some older windows in the house, there might be— I don't know, we'll find out— but there might not be adequate insulation by today's standards. However, all those things, they don't make it a bad home. They, they could be a beautiful home, we don't know. But just kind of let people know that this is common in older homes. This is what— and I tell people this all the time— the home you're buying that was built in 1900, it's going to be there when you and I are gone. So just keep all that in mind. So it's really important to set expectations.

Yeah, I bought— this is before I was a real estate agent— I bought a bank-owned home in the village of Northport, and the floors in it were crowned like this. Sure. And You know, it had all kinds of, it had a lot of issues and I tore the carpeting out, brought my father-in-law, this would, my son would have been long before he was, this was 20 years ago. My father-in-law is also an old crusty contractor, brought him in and he says, he actually, you know the building, the Harbor House in Leland? He actually leveled the Harbor House. He's really, his niche was really working with a lot of these old homes. Old structures. And he came in and he said, don't do a thing to it. It's— it has settled, it's solid where it's— it's settled to its final destination. If you try to jack it, you could be creating all kinds of different problems. So he's like, learn to— learn to love the sloped floor.

You know, you're talking about some really good things because just talking more about older homes, going down into that category a little bit more, if you will, A lot of times when you're doing an older home, a lot of people don't think about this, but if it was actually put together before 1980, which isn't very long ago in my life, it probably has asbestos in it. Doesn't make it a bad home. People get so freaked out about things like asbestos. We tell people it's real simple. As long as it's not friable, that means it's not going to become airborne, as long as it's not flaking down, it's not considered a health concern by the EPA. EPA. So the other thing you're going to find—

So with friable, and I ran into this a lot as a school superintendent, okay, my previous career dealing with asbestos, that friable means you start, you start cracking, you start wanting to tear it up. That's right. It's going to turn the— into particles. It's going to be powder that you can breathe, and then the asbestos, right, like makes all these little mini tears or— that's right, your lung tissue.

That's right. So, but just, it really comes down to the same thing again, setting expectations. I mean, if we went, if you and I did a walk right downtown Traverse City, most of the homes we would go next to, unless they were gutted clear down to the studs and redone, drywalled and everything, they have asbestos throughout the entire home. And it doesn't make it a bad home. It's been estimated that 50% of homes in the United States have asbestos in them. So you just, like, to your point though, if you are going to do a lot of remodeling and you're If you're gonna, you know, sand the walls, those kind of things, you're gonna make it friable, then you need to take preventative care when you do that.

But for most homes, you're gonna be perfectly fine. Is it true that asbestos can also be in like the popcorn ceiling?

There are so many building materials where asbestos is involved. Friable. Popcorn ceilings, ceiling tiles, floor tiles, ductwork. That's the more common one that a lot of people identify as that manila wrap on ductwork. Yeah. It's all asbestos wrap. The reason they used it years ago is because darn stuff lasts. It just lasts forever, and that's why— and it won't burn, and it won't burn. So it was a safe— they thought it was a safe product when they installed it, and that's— that was the mindset behind it. But nowadays we get the clients that ask the most questions about contaminants are young moms with children. They're educated, they read a lot, and they love their kids. So that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I— speaking of that, I sold a house on 7th Street to a client and there was asbestos in one of the upstairs bathrooms. And she had that mitigated— upstairs bedrooms. Did I say bathroom? Bedroom. And it was a sizable bedroom. I mean, it was as big as this room, you know. Sure. I'd say probably 10 by 15. And it cost— couple thousand dollars to have it, you know, she wanted it professionally done by a company. My dad would playfully say, it's, you know, about other things that were always frustrating, whether it was a car or whatever, he'd say, well, it's nothing that several thousand dollars won't fix, right? Or several hundred dollars.

That's the thing we have to always remember. Every client has different needs that we work with and what one client likes, it's not a big deal for somebody else. So again, it's setting expectations and doing— and we tell people this often, it really comes down to your budget and what your budget will allow you to do. Yeah. You know, everything's fixable.

Yeah. Okay, we've already kind of talked about some red flags like gutters, the lack of gutters, or gutters that trees are growing out of. Are there any other kind of red flags that buyers should be looking for prior to engaging, prior to making an offer? Oh, sure.

You know, well, I think the main one is give the house a good look. If there's any moisture in the basement, that's something that needs to be further evaluated. If there's grading, gutter issues, sloping issues around the home, that's something that's gonna affect the foundation. Those are really helpful things. And if there's no snow on the roof, I mean, anybody can look at a roof surface from the, from the ground and see if anything's curling or cupping up there, if they're asphalt shingle, and that's always helpful to know too. Sometimes we don't get information from anybody as far as how old the roof is. The current buyer, or the current seller, excuse me, may not remember when they put the roof on. That's very common. Time gets away from us, but I always tell my clients, work with your realtor closely, ask as many questions as you can. They can sometimes get information from the listing agent. Another category that you don't want to forget about is the waste system. So find out if it's a municipal system, is there any records on cleaning and maintenance of the sewer line? If it's a private septic, do you have any pumping record? When was it pumped last? So those are— and if you think about—

Why is that? So I had a septic pumper, Hodeck, up there in Leon. He told me that a properly operating septic system should never have to be pumped. But then, then, you know, that, I guess that's the key caveat— properly operating. That's right. Because a lot of what we put into our soaps and shampoos and laundry detergent, everything, work against the bacteria. That's right. Doing its job in the septic system. What it's, it's recommended, I think, once every 5 years to have it pumped.

Well, it comes down to usage. I mean, certainly if you have just 2 people living in a home, they could probably go a much longer period of time than a family of 4. Yeah. So it comes down to usage. The biggest concern when you don't pump a septic tank is there's always the possibility of solids plugging up the system. They're gonna try to get out of that tank. Some, some, if they get too full, they could be at the top and they can get into the drain field or the plumbing going to the drain field, and then you have an expensive repair. So that's really the biggest, and then it comes down to like a foundation, it comes down to tree roots. The biggest failure of a waste system is really tree roots in many cases. So you want to, when you open up the tanks to pump them, you're gonna look for tree roots. You're gonna do core samples of the drain field, that's what we do, and you just, you're gonna rule out those kind of problems. And if you have a septic system that's failed, 9 times out of 10 it's tree roots. And they've just, they've just been allowed to grow, the trees weren't cut back, the shrubs were planted too close to the system, and it causes problems.

Yeah, okay, so since we're talking about the waste system, in Leelanau County as an example, there's, and Benzie County, there's a countywide ordinance where the health department officials are conducting a septic inspection and a well inspection, which is really more it's not really a well inspection so much as it's water testing.

It's a water test. They do a bacteria and nitrate water test in Leland and Benzie County, and that's kind of their standard or their protocol before a home is sold. That's what has to happen. Yeah, okay.

And I had a client who was— that you guys did more extensive water testing because she wasn't— she wanted to know more than just bacteria and nitrates, you said? Correct. She was looking at PFAS, I think, and— and some other things. What are some add-ons that you've done in terms of trying to make— that clients have asked you to do, or that, depending on their level of concern, that you're capable of having done for clients in terms of water testing?

So we basically, we use a number of laboratories. They're all state-certified laboratories that do the water testing for us. So we do the draw, we take the sample to the laboratory, and in a few days we get a report. But to answer your question specifically, bacteria nitrates are the most common. That's what the health departments recommend because bacteria, you're not allowed to have any bacteria in your water that you drink. It can make you sick. The main one that a lot of people identify is called E. coli. That's found in the gut of warm mammals and that can make you really, really sick. So you rule that out. And then the nitrate level is important for children's cognitive development. If you have elevated nitrate over 10 parts per million, it can affect children's ability to learn and to concentrate on those, those kind of things. In addition to that, if a client wants us to, we will do a lead test on the water, even though I'll knock on the wood here, we've never found lead in well water, but it could happen. It's, you know, just a matter of time maybe, but that's one thing that we do. A lot of VA loans require, for example, a lead test on the water. It's more of a national requirement they have,— and then we do one called a partial chemical screen for some clients if they're worried about the metals in the water that they drink, like iron, phosphorus, a whole bunch of different components, about 11 different components we can perform that test to. And then you mentioned one that we're doing more often nowadays from people from out of our area that are moving here, and that's the PFAS test. And we're doing that, I wouldn't say a lot, but we do it a couple times a month now. And it's, it's important because PFAS, they're finding now this, and I'm talking about the EPA, they're saying there could be a link to cancer and the PFAS. But the crazy thing about PFAS is it's everywhere. It's kind of a scary thing to read about because you and I right now, I can tell you right now, you have PFAS in your body, and so do I. But what do we do about it? They simply say you should reduce the amount of exposure to it as humanly possible, and that should be your goal.

Where is it coming from?

PFAS was invented, they call it a category, they call it forever chemical, which means it does not break down, maybe over thousands of years, maybe millions, we're not sure yet. DuPont was the original company that created PFAS, and then 3M is another one. Those are the top 2 producers and users of PFAS. The first product that they used was Teflon, the nonstick pans. That's where it came from originally, and then it branched out from there. So if you go to a store and you buy a coat that's water repellent, it has those kind of forever chemicals in it. And you just talk about a product, it probably has some amount of PFAS in it. They're trying to limit it in our society. They're having a really difficult time.

Yeah, ever since COVID I've been on quite a health kick myself. Myself and really have gone down into a rabbit hole of researching the gut microbiome and its effect. And sure, and you know, that led me to ditching all my Teflon pans. I've got the old cast iron, right? And it is— I think you're going to see more and more activity with water testing. I got this device that it will create hydrogenated water. Sure, it basically inserts hydrogen. Makes it a thicker water, and I, I'm told that's really supposed to be good for you. Okay. But obviously you want to make sure that your water doesn't have a lot of the stuff that—

and we just, we're getting more interest, and that's why it's a benefit that we have is, like I told you, one of my inspectors has a strong background on water quality and water softening systems and those kind of things. But as we continue to do more home inspections for people from different parts of the country or even different parts of the world, they do require or request a lot of water testing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, well, let's talk about the niche of waterfront homes. And are there specific other things that you're looking for in terms of when you inspect a waterfront property? It's kind of a unique segment. Is there something different that is— that buyers need to be aware of when looking at a waterfront home and what should be inspected?

That's a great question. We do a lot of waterfront properties, and I think the number one thing I think about is ground cover. So, you're always worried about erosion when you have waterfront property. The one question people ask us all the time that we have to punt on, and it's mainly a God question, and that is, "Do I have to worry about erosion here?" And the answer is, you certainly do. And as far as the level of that water, it's anyone's guess. It's going to go up and down. It's going to recede. Seed over time. The main thing you can do as a homeowner on a waterfront property is make sure you have good foliage, good ground cover. Um, the best thing to have is deciduous trees, uh, trees that have good root systems. Maple, beech, oak, those kind of things. If you have a good root system, it's gonna hold the soil where you want it to be. It's a little counterintuitive 'cause a lot of people when they buy a waterfront home, they wanna see the water and they don't want those big trees in front of their house and the water. But they're there to protect your investment. So keep that in mind. There's a lot of shrubs that have good root systems too. But those are kind of things we evaluate when we see a home. We want to make sure we look up at the canopy of that tree and make sure they're in good, healthy condition. This time of year, it can be a little bit more difficult because we don't have any leaves. But certainly it's an easier proposition in the summertime when you're supposed to have everything leafed out and everything. But that's kind of a really important thing. And then I would say second to that, as far as importance, would be just the, the dampness of the soil around that home. Another thing, when you look at the, the, the cert— the certain number of trees and what the, the species are, if there's a lot of cedars around there, or trees you would commonly see in areas where there's a high water table, that can be a red flag. It doesn't have to be, but it could be. So we're going to give those kind of situations importance too, and that means there could be a higher water table that could affect the foundation too. And a lot of waterfront homes, if there is a high water table, you'll see a system called a water containment system, and there's a number of companies in our area that install those, and they're basically a way that that home has a system to release the hydrostatic pressure. So the water's coming in that home and then it's, it's pushed out. It's a little counterintuitive, but the water actually comes in, then it goes out because you're reducing the hydrostatic pressure. Those can be common in a high water table area too. So there's a number of things. It always comes down to roots and water in waterfront homes. Yeah. Those are all important things.

Yeah, my brother didn't have a waterfront home, but in the village of Northport on Shaw Blossom, which is the main road leading into Northport from 22 or 22 kind of corner. There. And a lot of those homes along there have— and water, you know, he had Foundation Systems of Michigan using a system like that. Sure. To expel the water into the storm drains. Right, right.

And those companies are very— they're, they're everywhere around here. There's 3 of them that, that we see their products all the time. They're, they're pretty good systems. The things that we find from time to time where they'll be compromised is the seams of the membrane can give way and water will be allowed at that point to get inside and on top of the penetration or the covering, and then they need to be resealed. But they're pretty good systems.

Yeah, it was interesting that, you know, you could have eaten off the floor. Yeah, it was a crawl space. So clean down there. But what was interesting was that, you know, he spent a fair amount of money getting that all set, and it was funny that a number of buyers were very, very concerned by that, right?

Well, it sounds like a lot of—

it must have been a big deal for you to go to this trouble, you know. And my brother was more like, it really wasn't. I just— he's just one of these one of these guys that's gonna do it right, you know.

Well, I— no, no, that's a great point. I think a lot of times people just need to be educated on what they are, how they work. Yeah. And a lot of people, they've never seen those before. If you come into a property and you see that for the first time, they're gonna say, what is this? There's something wrong here. Yeah. But as long as— the main thing to know, the systems are very resilient and they usually have a transferable warranty. So if you're buying a home with that type of system and you love the home, Just consult with your realtor, have them work on your behalf, and get that transferable warranty so you're covered, so that the new person that owns that home knows how to maintain it and take care of it.

Yeah, good point. And we did do that. There was a transferable warranty in my brother's case, and we did get that transferred to the new owner, who I just saw at the Santa Claus visiting Northport. I just saw that new owner, um, well, was not represented by me, okay, but But she's like, "You're Sander, and we bought the house through you." I'm like, "Oh, great. You just like it?" And she's like, "Oh, we love it." That's always good, even though it wasn't my client. You still want people to be happy with the home that they buy. Exactly. What about— I'm thinking about homes on Lake Michigan versus a little more sheltered, like a bay or an inland lake. A home on Lake Michigan with the wind, I would think that the siding, you know, I would think that you'd have, depending of course on its proximity, but I would think that there'd be some issues there to consider.

Well, the main thing is when you're setting a home up on the bluff, if you don't have really good insulation in those walls, if you don't have any really nicely installed windows, you're going to feel it inside, especially in the dead of winter. So the one thing that we like to use is something called the infrared camera. And so when we're in the home, and it's actually the best time to do it is when it's cold because you have a temperature differential between the inside and outside, you can scan the walls and you can check for voids of insulation in the wall cavities, and you can see if there's any air leaks around those windows. That's really important when you're up on a bluff and there's a lot of wind coming through that home. So those are something we can look at, and that's really important to to do.

Yeah, okay, so more heat loss than necessarily water. Yes. You know, like mist being thrown against the side of the house. Right.

You just, you want the home to be as tight as possible.

So absolutely. Anything else about waterfront homes? We just talked about one of my questions here, the bluff versus direct water access.

I think if you rule out the things we've talked about and include in the inspection that we do, the, the condition of the trees. Are they, are they diseased? Do they look like they're in good shape? Do they have good, appear to have good root system? There's no visible erosion next to the water. Do that, and then everything else would probably pretty much follow a normal home inspection.

Yeah. So let's talk about the scope too of the home inspection, because one of the things that I try to educate my clients on is, you know, with Traverse City Home Inspections, you're going to come in and inspect the components of the home. You're not actually inspecting the trees though for root systems. Those are things you're just saying that they should keep in mind. That's not a part of your inspection.

Well, what we do is if we see a tree between the house and the waterfront that's obviously decayed or it's got some kind of you know, unusual growth to it that doesn't look healthy, we're going to point that out in the inspection just to let people know that, that, you know, you might want to keep in mind this tree is probably going to have to be replaced in a short period of time, possibly. You're going to want to budget for some new trees or some new growth to keep that soil secure. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah, because the other thing that I try to educate my clients on is that the, the home inspector has certain things under their purview. They're not going to make a comment on what zoning allows, or what the HOA allows, or in the case of a vacant lot, you guys probably wouldn't be doing any kind of inspection, right? No. What we're running into a lot is what you talked about the, you know, I've got a lake beautiful lot listed on Lake Michigan on Gills Pier. Okay. A lot of cedars. You know, and there's a lot of questions about, well, what's the buildable envelope? What would I be able to— and some of the challenges that we're having with that is that, you know, Michigan EGLE will really only answer questions based on a specific site plan proposed by an individual. So it's sort of this catch-22 that a prospective buyer can't really know what can be done until they make a pitch. Right. And we've had a situation where you hire these consultants who for years and years and years have, you know, you hire them to come in and do a wetland assessment. And they've been surprised these last few years by the determination that's been made by Michigan EGLE. So they have built up this set of expectations that they've advised based on for decades, and there's been some kind of recent change, whether it's been a policy or something, but the determination being made by Michigan EGLE on what is allowed and not allowed based on a wetland assessment become much more strict lately, and that's frustrating a lot of waterfront vacant sales. I mean, it wouldn't apply in your situation, —right, right.

But by definition, what we do, Sander, is— and this is right out of the associations that we belong to as home inspectors— is we provide a visual property inspection on a given day and time for a fee. And that is the true definition of a home inspector. So that means it's the structure itself. We can go out of that to cover things like trees if we, if we need to for the client's benefit, but that's pretty much the lane that we have stay in. Yeah.

Okay, and so let's talk about, we've already mentioned, you can do a sewer scope, you do a drain field, you can do a drain field inspection. You can do a radon inspection. You've also, for water, different water testing. You did an indoor air quality. We can. For a client of mine.

That falls into the category of mold testing. And that's, that's another thing we're doing more than ever before because A lot of people have concerns about the air that they breathe. So we offer two different types of mold testing. One is called the surface mold. If you think back in high school biology or college, whatever you studied, you simply swab an area of growth that you visually see and then you have it taken to a laboratory. It's put in a petri dish and grown and then they isolate and tell you the genus of that mold. That's one test. We use that primarily to, to eliminate any kind of toxic molds. So, one of the misnomers that we hear every week in our business is a client will say, "I think I have black mold," and we smile because there's no such thing as black mold. Black is a color. There's no such thing as black mold, but there are species of mold that can make you very sick. They give off things called mycotoxins, and they can make an average person very sick. So, That's one thing we want to rule out with a surface mold test. The other test that we do quite often is called the air quality test that you alluded to, and that is we extract mold spores from the air, have them evaluated so you know exactly what you're breathing when you're in that property. And, and again, it's like a surface test in that we break it down, we tell you all the different mold spores that are prevalent or common in the air, and then we provide those. And what we do is we call the client because it's a scientific report, it can can be kind of confusing for people that have never read them before, so we kind of go through it. And what I tell people is, before we even do that, any of those mold tests, every home has mold in it. You and I, as we're talking, we're breathing mold, and we appear to be perfectly fine and healthy, but there are certain things we want to rule out. There's 3 that come to mind, maybe you've heard of them. One, every home in America, or at least every home that we've ever tested, has Aspergillus, Penicillium, Clostridium. Those 3 molds are everywhere in our environment, and for most people, they don't even bother us. They're part of our—

Penicillin is what penicillin is made of.

That's exactly right. Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's everywhere. But even those mold spores in some homes and some clients, if they're really elevated, they can bother you. But in most cases, you just clean the house and it takes care of it. So, yeah.

So here's a— I haven't had a client who did not get a home inspection on a townhouse in Sugarloaf. Okay. And she, you know, they basically felt like, well, it's a condo, right? Not as much to inspect, whatever. She travels for her sales job. When she'd come home, she'd be home a day or two and start to break out in hives. As soon as she left, for her sales job, she'd clear right up. Okay. End up finding out that there were, there were leaks in the roof, penicillium was growing in the walls. She found out that she was allergic, didn't know this before. Okay. Which led to a, uh, actually a claim, uh, against that, that property owner or the seller because he had not disclosed this even though there was evidence within the last year of roofing contractors trying to address the issue. Sure. But that speaks to the point of people can assume that condos, because in most condos they're paying an assessment and the roof's taken care of. Right, exactly. Other things are taken care of, but what comment would you have about the relative importance of inspecting condos?

Well, the first thing I tell everybody If you're buying a condo, great, but at a very minimum, you should get a copy of the bylaws and the minutes. And in those documentations, most of the time, if they're kept to date, they should have any kind of roofing repairs or any kind of unfunded repairs. So that's a very important term when you're buying a condo to see if there's any unfunded repairs that might— in other words, the association setting money aside for certain types of repairs, for example, that are about—

that will come later. Like, yeah, like a new roof.

Okay. And those are really important things for a buyer to know so that they can see if, hey, are those repairs going to be funded soon? So when I buy this unit, I'm not on the hook for $10,000. That doesn't happen often, but it could. So I just tell people, get as much information about the minutes of the bylaws so you know what you're responsible for and what the association takes care of. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then with that in mind, With that in hand, those documents, I tell people, we'll inspect whatever you want us to do. If you want us to get up on the roof and do the outside, we'll be happy to do that. But I do tell them, 90% of the time when we do a condo, we do what's called an interior inspection along with any decks, railings, or steps on the outside because we consider those safety issues. And I always say, is that kind of what you're looking for? And again, most people say yes. So that's what we do.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So have you run into anything surprising or unusual? This is story time for, you know, extreme things that maybe you've discovered in the inspections.

I don't know if I can think of anything extreme. It's more when I think of that question, it's more like people's needs and desires of a home they're buying. And I'll give you a story. This happened about 3 years ago. And it was a beautiful property on Lake Michigan. I think it was like in the $2.5 to $3 million price range. This couple were buying it, they were about my age, and they came to the house, very nice people, and the home was spotless. It was absolutely a beautiful home. And as we were going through the home, they made a number of comments about the home is, looks like a nice home. It had 2 gas forced air furnaces in the house. And they were right, they were the kind of clients that wanted to be right next to us as we inspected, which is fine with us. And so my inspectors took out the high-efficiency furnace filters in both units and they were absolutely filthy. They were black in color, they had, it looked like cat dander, dog hair, and they looked at us and they said, "That's it, we don't want this house." And we were like, at first I thought they were kidding, and then I looked at their faces and they were not kidding at all. And then the next thing the gentleman said to us, he goes, think about this, Tim. He said, if they don't take care of the furnaces, what is in this home that you can't see as an inspector? So I think we should stop the inspection now and go to another. Now, in contrast, this kind of stuff happens, that doesn't happen often, but we will go into another property, maybe the same day or a couple days later, and it will need a new roof, it will need a new furnace, it will need something else. Big, pretty good-sized ticket items. And the client will look at us and say, "Thank you so much. That's exactly what I needed to know. Now I know what needs to be fixed. This is my home. I love this property." So you just— it just— I always think about that because everyone— that just points to the fact that everyone has different expectations as far as what they want. And I just thought that was kind of— looking back, it was kind of funny when they stopped the inspection because of 2 dirty furnace filters.

Well, it is true that that's an indicator though. It can be. It's an indicator of neglect, right? It is. And it just, you know, I remember reading a book. It was, I want to say it was like Van Halen or it was some famous rock band. And they had a condition that you had to have a bowl of M&M's for them. Okay. And there could only be, there had to be a certain number of no more, no less. I think it was 8 red M&Ms. And it seemed to be really— that seems like a ridiculous kind of, right, pompous, or what would you say that, you know, what's the right word, um, diva thing, right? Acting like a diva. And they— they— there was a method behind that for them, is that they wanted a clear indicator for their— because they were doing pyrotechnics you know, the stages. There's a lot of complexity with setting these things up. They wanted to ensure their safety. They wanted a window or an indicator into the attention of the detail on the part of the event organizer. And that was their way of doing it. If they came in and they knew that if they paid attention to the contract enough to make sure there were 8 and only 8 red M&Ms or whatever. And I thought, that because they don't have time to go there and inspect the stage or inspect the pyrotechnics, they have to trust that the stuff is not going to kill them when they're performing on stage. So anyway, I, I, I can appreciate that client's perspective. Um, it would be hard, especially, you know, you love a house for the sake of a couple of furnace filters, right? But right, yeah, my brother-in-law, or my brother's brother-in-law, um, built a house in Pontiac and he had a condition that no smoking. He showed up and saw a contractor smoking and fired everybody immediately.

You know, it was just that one thing he asked for. Yes, they couldn't do it.

Um, all right, anything else? You've mentioned technology, you mentioned using— you have a certain code, right, that you can't do any— you're inspection can— it's not like you can start tearing walls out, or— right, like there was one inspection that, that I was having you guys do out in Bel Air, and the attic access was fastened shut, and therefore your guys weren't going to go in there because they're like, well, we can't— we may do damage trying to take those fasteners out, so therefore we can't inspect the attic. And I was— because I was there I was able to call the other realtor and they sent over a handyman and took care of that so that your guys could get up and inspect the attic because that's obviously an important thing to inspect for roof leakage. But can you talk a little bit about what, you know, what limitations you have to operate within when you're doing a home inspection?

Yeah, and this comes up quite often, Sander Scott. This is another good question. I think the answer is this: when we go into someone's home, we're We are guests in their home. My client, the buyer of the home, in most cases, they do not own that home. And we always have to remember, even though we work for them, we're contracted legally with our client before we do an inspection, they have to sign a legal document, we are also guests in a stranger's home. We often will never, never even meet the seller of the property. They're usually, they vacate the property when we're there. That's what is the best for most cases, so the buyer and the sellers don't meet each other. That works the best. But we just remember that we have to be guests and we are not allowed to do any damage to a property. And if that means we have to get in an attic that's completely sealed shut— and your question's a good one because attic accesses, if you do it strict by good building standards, they're supposed to be caulked shut. Most are not, but they should be sealed shut, and that's for airflow. You don't want air to get up in your attic and heat the attic space. In Michigan, we, we have ice damming, right? So you want to prevent that. So that— so we run into that a lot, especially in new builds. So they'll put a nice white bead of caulk around the hole inside of the home, and we are just not allowed to go in there. If you push that up, what will normally happen is you'll crack the paint around the side Worst case scenario, the homeowner comes back and said, "Who was in my attic? They cracked all the paint. They're going to come back and fix it." So, they would have a legitimate gripe. So, what we always do is we have to ask permission from our realtor friends and say, "Hey, can you get us access to this attic?" Sometimes the homeowner will just say, "Yeah, use a utility knife. I have no problem. I understand." Maybe they have a building background. They know the difficulty of getting in an attic in the first place, and if that's the case, we always have X-Acto knives and we'll cut it very carefully. We'll put a note in the inspection report, "Attic was, it was accessed using a utility knife, caution was taken." But again, real simply, we have to be very cautious in someone's home. We, to stretch that out a little bit further, we tend not to move furniture unless we absolutely have to, to see something behind it. Because we could scratch a floor. We don't go into a kitchen and start removing appliances You can scratch a kitchen floor. We've learned the hard way in many cases. We've done that before many years ago, so we just really want to be protective of people's property.

Yeah, yeah. And speaking of that, I've noticed that your guys are wearing a camera similar to like a police officer wears.

Yeah, we wear body cameras. Body cams, yeah. And that's not only to protect us, but it's to protect our realtor colleagues as well, the homeowners, everyone involved in case anything It's never happened, but if someone was to ever say, "Hey, something was different when the inspectors left. It's not the same," we can prove that what we did and didn't do, and that camera runs all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that was—

that's really a sign of the times that you gotta feel like you gotta do that.

You know, it's unfortunate. We didn't want to do that years ago, but we decided to go down that route. We've never had to use it, but it's there if we need to. Yeah.

Based on your experience, what trends are you noticing in the Traverse City market when it comes to inspections?

I think the biggest trend is, and I know you know this as a realtor, but for a lot of people that lived here their whole life, like I've lived most of my life in this part of Michigan, there's a tremendous influx of people moving here. And they have, a lot of them have significant financial resources. And they're not just looking for a home to live in, but they're looking for a home to live in for a month or two a year. And that is a large portion of our business. Every year it seems to grow. And so these people are like my age, and they're coming up here and they're spending some of their retirement and they're buying homes. And they say there's nothing like Northern Michigan that they've ever seen with all the fresh water. And that's the, that's the kind of the impetus to get them up here.

Yeah, but I'm seeing I have a client from Los Angeles. He's got two places near Hollywood, and he's got a place up on a bluff looking over, uh, Good Harbor Bay. Sure. Could not live there in the winter though, because, uh, just too cold. Well, no, the driveway is so bad, there's no way. There's so steep. Okay. Uh, there's no way he could, but he wants another place up here, and he's moving from LA because 'cause the crime's just through the roof. But to your point about resources.

It is, yeah, it's really, most people will say it's a resource thing, the water attracts them. They say another thing too, that you and I are local people, so we have seen tremendous increases in our real estate values, but a lot of people from Chicago, New York City, LA, they say Traverse City is pretty inexpensive. Yeah. You know?

If we've lived here all our life, we disagree, but. —compared to what they're coming from New York City or Chicago or in this case LA. And you just did, you mentioned before we got on camera, you just did an inspection at a $14 million home in the Traverse City area.

Yep, and it's the most expensive home in Michigan. It's funny, I have a group of home inspection owners that I talk to every Monday so we can pull from each other's book of knowledge, if you will. And they were from areas this morning from Raleigh, they were from Minneapolis-St. Paul, I had one in Chicago, just really all over the Midwest and some areas south. And they said they had never seen a home at $14 million and we had it right here at home. So that just, that gives you an idea of the resources some of our buyers have today. Yeah.

Yeah. So you mentioned one of the preventatives in terms of maybe not inspections, we could just switch, use your inspection knowledge to talk to people about just regular things to maintain the critical components of their home. And you mentioned getting the septic system pumped every 5 years. What could— another critical component is the roof. And I think I remember recommendation that you have is making sure there's no trees within 10 feet, I think it was, of the roof. Yep, that's right. What are some other things when it comes to a roof system to try to get as much life out of those shingles as possible?

So one of the easiest things you can do as a homeowner is keep the roof clean. And to your point, if you think about what happens in the environment after a rain, if you have shaded areas on your roof, it's not going to dry out very quickly. You're gonna get lichen, you're gonna get moss growth. Those two things— What's lichen? Lichen is— That's staining? No, lichen is another growth that happens very similar to mold, but it basically, if it's allowed to grow like fungus on a roof, it will get underneath the shingle and lift it. And when it's lifted, then water can come in and do its dirty deed of getting in the house and getting in the attic. So lichen, moss will grow where when a roof is shaded a lot. So the easiest thing a homeowner can do is keep the trees cut back 10 to 12 feet to avoid any shading on a roof. That's really important. We often, I tell this story often to my clients that it's not uncommon for us to go on a roof one day and it will be like a 10-year, 12-year-old roof and the roof looks terrible. And then we'll go down the same day, different roof, different home, a 30-year-old roof looks like it's brand new. And it could be shingle manufacturer to a certain point, but most of the time it's because one homeowner maintained the roof and kept it cleaner, and they just last much longer. So keeping the roof clean, keeping the tree limbs cut back, keeping the shade away from the house makes a big difference in just the longevity of a roof surface.

Do you have anything to say about those— there are certain strips, I'm trying to remember the —like zinc strips.

Yeah, yeah, those can help. They can help. I think, I think my first point is more important to keep the shade, but that would be in addition to that.

If you're— if you're— because I put those on my barn. I just did my roof on my barn about 5 years ago, put zinc strips on them, on that. And I don't— I have them in certain spots on my house, and it has helped. But I'm also keeping it clean, keeping the stuff off. But I live in a heavily wooded area, so there's more chance of kind of trapping that moisture. Absolutely.

But those are just— it sounds important because we're talking about it, but those are things people just forget about. Homeowners forget about that all the time. And so that's a very common notation in an inspection report: cut the trees back, it'll help extend the surface life of your roof. Okay.

What about other— the other critical components we've talked about, septic, roof, what are some other maintenance things?

Keep trees cut back from the foundation. You don't want tree roots pushing on your foundation walls. That's really important. When you're selling a home, to make it more attractive to the buyer, there's a lot of just really basic things that a lot of people often overlook. Things like changing light bulbs, make sure the home is very well lit when somebody— I can't tell you how many times people go in a home and it's dark and they don't like it. Yeah. And it's just, it sounds really simple because we're talking about it, but it is very common that we run into that.

Yeah. And the obsession that some, like, I've had to help some sellers overcome that, like, the amount of money from leaving the lights on. Sure. You're trying to sell your home, just turn all the lights on prior to the showing. Absolutely. And don't worry if they don't shut the lights off, right?

You'll be home soon, you can shut them off. It's It's money well spent for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then just the cleanliness of the home in general.

And then of course regular maintenance on changing those furnace filters. Furnace filters are a big one.

One of the easiest things you can do to extend the life of a gas forced air furnace is to change the darn furnace filter. Sounds really easy, and people will always want a guideline. What I tell people is this: it depends on a couple things. It's your, it's your lifestyle. If you have dogs and cats, you're gonna have to change them more often. But if you're someone that doesn't have animals, you could probably wait 6 months to change a furnace filter. You have the little skinny fiberglass furnace filters, and then you have the high-efficiency ones. The high-efficiency ones usually will last longer, but when you do replace one of those thin furnace filters, always opt out, or go to rather, the pleated filters. They have more surface area. They'll take out more impurities of the air, and they're just better for your overall health.

Pleated being kind of ribbed.

Yes. Versus— Yeah. As opposed to the ones, the little cheap ones you can see through. Yeah. Those really don't do a whole lot.

Yeah. So— Yeah, it's funny that when I was first married and didn't have— I was teaching. My wife wasn't working. I had to get the brakes replaced on my car. And I asked JP up there, JP VanRaalte at Van's Garage. I said, well, how long can I expect these brakes to last? And he said, all depends on how you drive, Stan. That's right.

Are you gonna push on the brakes?

All depends on how you drive, you know. That's right. And it took me a while, like, well, there has to be like a general rule. And he's like, actually, you know, there's really not. If you're riding your brakes, you're going to go through them.

It's really important, and we've learned this over the years, and I'm an animal lover, but I can tell you from experience, if people have cats or dogs that shed a lot, at a very minimum, clean your home to get rid of all that evidence before someone. Because a lot of people don't like animals. A lot of people have never had a cat or a dog, and you don't want to turn them off from buying a home just because you have cat dander or dog hair on the floor. And we've seen it happen before, and we just shake our heads because, yeah, you know, it's not a big deal. You clean it, take care of it. But a lot of people, that turns them them off.

Well, a horror story that I have from— this was back before I was an agent. I was looking at buying kind of distressed properties or property, and this, this one, literally, uh, the linoleum squished under my feet with pet urine. Okay. It was that, and my wife couldn't— wouldn't walk in. Sure. It was that. Of course, I had morbid curiosity. I kept looking, but it so bad, the squishiness, saturated with pet urine. And then actually one of my former students, her husband and she bought the place. Okay. And I went back to him afterward and I said, what on earth did you do? How? Because I drive by and I see all the windows open, you know, and he said, well, I had to tear it down to the floor joists. Yeah. And then I kills on the floor joists.

He says, "Now you can't smell a thing." Yeah, it's a lot of work to clean up after a cat house. It really, it can be, it can be. Yeah, and we don't have to belabor this issue, but we were talking about mold testing and air quality testing. Often we will find that a home is perfectly fine for mold, but I start quizzing people on their animals and A lot of times they'll have a cat in the house that they never told us about, and that cat is bothering them, and they didn't even think about the cat dander. Cat dander bothers a lot of people, makes them really sick.

Yeah, so do you need to worry about, like, let's say in this Kills example, or is that something you can test for in your air quality? What do they call that, VOCs, or the volatile organic compounds? Yeah, so, or what about inorganic? Compounds?

Oh yeah, so we don't have the ability to test for those in the air. What our air quality test does is we look for mold spores, mildew spores, and smut, which is something that comes from the outside. So those 3 things we can test for, okay? But as far as— we can do volatile organic compounds in drinking water, we test for that quite often. So that's kind of the, the boundaries of what we do.

Yeah, I'm just thinking about like if there's been serious chemical treatments or something, right, right, how, you know, there could be some more and more health concerns coming up, could be some concerns about those. Is there, is there a test that's available for people?

There is, um, but I'm not schooled in it. I'm not knowledgeable about it.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Is there anything that you, that I haven't asked you that is really worth sharing for a prospective buyer?

I think you asked some very good questions. A lot of them are very common questions we get, and that's an indication of their importance from clients. They ask us those all the time. But I think when you're booking an inspection, when you're going through a house and you're a buyer, take a pad of paper and a pen with you and write down anything in that home that doesn't look quite right to you. You. And again, it could be something you experienced in your previous property that you're aware of that you don't want to go through again with a new property. And just make notes and then share those notes with your Realtor and the home inspector and let them know these are possible concerns. You might not have any, but it's always helpful for us to address them during the inspection process so we can kind of set you at ease and expand on that a little bit.

One thing I will add, one last thing relative to scheduling that I think is important is that oftentimes, and you've been great in this regard, is that if I'm anticipating, but even before a house actually goes under contract, I'm communicating with you about when can you get in there. Sure. Because let's say there's a— first of all, we want to make the offer as attractive as it can be. You want to try to keep limit the inspection period as much as is as practical, right? Because a seller is not going to want to take their house off the market for 14 days, right? But it's also important that we try to get you guys in there as quickly as possible in case there's further— in case you come back and your, your inspector says, hey, you might, you need to check this out. Sure. Or in the case, like, you guys do, you guys don't really do chimney inspections, right?

That's something we'll do a kind of a cursory where we do the, the, the, the, the flashing, we'll do the chimney cover, the cap, the chase, and then we'll get up inside into the smoke chamber. But that area, which is quite extensive from the upper limits of the smoke chamber to the upper units of that chimney, we can't inspect. So that would be a chimney sweep kind of thing.

So anyway, my message to buyers, I guess, is just that, you know, let's say there's a 7-day inspection window. We want to try to not make on the 6th day, you know, because the report may come back and you're, you know, there's something to be concerned about in there that it's better not to have to ask for an extension. It's better if that were done on day 2, then that leaves us 5 more days to call in an electrician if there's something in the panel that's called out.

So, Sander, as you well know, in the business we're in, everything needs to be done right away. So, so the question that we ask people, and we always smile when we say it because we kind of know the answer, is, ma'am or sir, when you need this done by? And they always say, as soon as possible. So, so with that in mind, we try to get people on right away, um, as soon as possible. And then, like I said earlier, we get the report to them within the hour. Now, if there's an occasion where we can't get it on for like 2 or 3 days. And if they want a septic evaluation and a water test and a radon test, we can do those tests early so that the results are done the day of the inspection.

To help them. Yeah, one last thing is that when this was— when we were in the crazy, crazy market that we were in, when there was multiple offers on every property, bidding wars, going for well above asking, you got to the point where you were offering kind of a scaled-back inspection, right? Where you would show up to the first showing sometimes? Yes, yes. Just, yeah, so we, we, you kind of, you're not doing that as much anymore. No, market has stabilized. But talk about when you were, what does that look like?

We call it a mini inspection or a walkthrough inspection. And we didn't make it up, it was just kind of the market required it at the time. So what we did in that case, the real— we work closely with a realtor. So this home is not under contract yet. So the realtor would set up a showing, and then we would have a specified period of time during that showing, which was 30 minutes to an hour, and we basically will inspect as much in that home as we possibly can with the idea that we're going to do the most important thing. So again, foundation, roof, mechanicals, we're going to do those 3 things at a minimum, and then whatever time allows, we'll do more. So then again, it comes into consulting with a realtor and the buyer and say, hey, What— do you have any concerns? And so after we knock out those big 3 components, if they have a concern about kitchen appliances, we'll make sure we go to that next. And again, we just do it depending on how much time we have in the home. The realtors have to give us access because, you know, it's not listed. We don't have permission to go in that home yet, but they have to coordinate that and we'll go do that. And it's usually a reduced—

you say it's not listed, you meant to say it's not yet under contract. That's right, it's not under contract. —And this was a strategy buyers were using, and buyers' agents were using, because they would have clients that were missing out on a lot of homes because they were making offers contingent upon inspections. This was a strategy to at least partially satisfy that they're not buying a lemon that's going to have a major expense. They could deal with little knick-knacky things, but then they could make an offer that was not contingent upon inspections.

The nice thing about it, it just made the buyer feel more relaxed with their offer. Yeah. That they knew enough about the home to make a good decision. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right.

I think that does it. I know you've got to get on the road. Yeah, I do. Thanks, man. Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Good job, man. Appreciate it.