106 Affordable Integrative Tele-Health for chronic Lyme

That they're pretty confident that it's hitting Babesia as well.

Really?

How is that possible? I don't know, but I'll take it. They're thinking Babesia, and then another doctor that's been doing a lot of clinical trials, he really feels that it's hitting Bartonella based on Herx's. So people who are taking it are really having like the Bartonella Herx's, but there's no research yet that it's hitting Bartonella, but there is research that is hitting the Babesia.

So what do you— what would you describe a Bartonella Herx as?

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Complex.

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Welcome guys to another episode of Lyme Voice. I am your host, Sarah Slickty Sanchez. I am excited about this episode. I wanted to talk with Elizabeth Kirk, who practices here in Colorado, because we had met at a conference about 3 years ago. She is a nurse practitioner here and she's now able to practice telehealth in all 50 states. The thing that I really like about Elizabeth Kirk and her practice, Integrative Health Colorado, is that she has had Lyme and mold issues and recovered from them while also going through graduate school. So she has a wealth of information. She's highly affordable. If you are at the point where you need a practitioner who can just keep pointing you in the right direction and keep helping you, this is fantastic episode for you to listen to. So this is an overview of life as a patient at the Integrative Health Colorado Center. But again, a lot of it is telehealth stuff. So before we get into that, I want to tell you about a couple new advertisers that we have coming on. You've already heard me talk about tickwarriors.com. That is where we get all of our safe, effective, all-natural, eco-friendly protection against ticks mosquitoes, and other insects. And if you use the source code LIMEBOYS, you will get 10% off. We have deer in our yard all the time. My kids know not to walk in tall grass, to stay on trails, but we coat all of our people, all of our pets, and our entire property in this stuff on an ongoing basis. And we really have liked it, and it brings me an incredible peace of mind because I do not want to get Lyme ever again. So, tickwarriors.com is fantastic. If you have not checked out limetv.org, they are another fantastic resource and they provide education to schools and classrooms and videos for people so that they can understand prevention, try to prevent any of you, any more people from having to listen to a podcast like Lyme Voice. And then our third sponsor is Integrative Health Colorado with Elizabeth Kirk. And again, she's a great resource. I'm so happy to have this interview with her, and I'm going to take you guys behind the scenes just a little bit of what LymeVoice does behind the scenes. So we get contacted— well, let me start with, we get downloaded anywhere between 3,000 and 7,000 times a month. So, and we're being downloaded in, at this point, every— on every continent. If you don't know this yet, Lyme can be very difficult to treat hard to diagnose. It's just a massive journey. And, and most people are on that journey with a ton of misinformation for years and years and years. So there's a gigantic learning curve. We can tell when people find our podcast because they binge, you know, our top 20, 25 podcasts over and over again as they're searching for information and trying to figure out how to proceed. So if you are on this journey and you are an expert, this is just another layer of information for you. If you're a newbie, this is a great episode for you to start with because, and I'm gonna say this, the other thing that happens in addition to downloads is I do coaching calls for people who need to sit down for a couple hours with someone who's been through the complexities of chronic illness and Lyme and kids with special needs and brainstorm how to fix as many of the problems they have going on. You know, in the self-help world, people say, look at your problems as a way to grow, an invitation from the universe to grow bigger and become a better person or a bigger person. And there's definitely truth in that, but I feel like for so many parents, um, and caregivers— about 30% of the coaching calls I do are with either a parent or a caregiver— it's very hard to make some of these decisions when 10 years of your life has been impacted or 15 years of your life has been impacted, and those decisions still have to keep coming. So As people call in, I did just last week, I did 3 coaching calls where I gave Elizabeth's name and number to people who could benefit from her practice, because it is really hard to find affordable telehealth Lyme literate physicians. And I think she's just an invaluable resource. And again, as people call in, I can tell how important an episode is going to be by how many times they share it with people in a coaching call. I hope you enjoy this episode. I have been staying off of social media as much as possible. If you want to get a hold of me, email me, sanchesssmile@gmail.com. You can definitely send me a message on Facebook and I will try to get to it. Um, but man, all this stuff going on with COVID and the election, we literally quit watching the news a couple months ago. Our lives are better for it. So I'm kind of trying to stay out of it. And figure out how I'm gonna homeschool my kids this fall because school has changed for us here in Colorado as well. So I hope you all are hanging in there. I'm sorry you are listening to this podcast. I tell people, don't go listen to my podcast. This is not the podcast you listen to for fun. This is a survival podcast. I am thankful that you all are here. I love hearing from you all. I am so sorry you're on this accidental journey, But there is hope and healing, and I've spoken to so many practitioners. When you are suffering, you don't see the needle moving, but as a nation, the needle is moving, and there is help and healing, and people are healing in a wide variety of ways. And I know I say that a lot, but it's the truth. People are healing. Sometimes that takes 10 years, and I'm sorry if that— if you are one of those, but the journey to recovery is worthwhile on every level. So stick with it. Keep getting educated, and we're going to be bringing you a ton of information here in the fall as we continue to unfold 2020. Enjoy this episode. Welcome, welcome to another episode of Lyme Voice. With me today is Elizabeth Kurt. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here with us.

Thank you for having me.

So Elizabeth is a nurse practitioner in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and not only does she have a really neat integrative program, but she's also seen significant benefits with her Lyme patients using Dysoriflam. I'm not— I'm not saying that right.

Disulfiram. Disulfiram. Close.

Disulfiram. I've been saying that wrong all week and I knew it was wrong, but I couldn't figure it out.

That's okay. You can also call it Antabuse. Antabuse is the trade name or the brand name. That's a little bit easier to say.

Okay, so Elizabeth, take us start to finish as far as a patient walks in, they've probably had symptoms for quite some time. Take us through your initial eval, what tests you rely on, and then walk us through the basic protocols, and, and then I'll have a bunch more questions for you.

Okay, sure. Thank you. So I've actually transitioned over to telehealth, so I'm no longer doing in-office visits, or very few of them. Basically, I make the appointment with the patient, they come in, we go over signs and symptoms and decide if they're ready for— if they're the right fit for a Lyme test. And if so, if their symptoms are spot on for that, what I usually do is a Western blot. Through IgeneX, and I do the IgG-IgM test. What I've found is just that old-school Western blot still is pretty effective if it's interpreted correctly. So I interpret it fairly loosely. I don't interpret it as the CDC does. And then the other big point is to use the IgeneX lab for that. Hmm. And then based Yeah, and based on symptoms, we will go through and do some coinfection testing, and that's kind of dependent upon where the patient is and their thoughts on things. Coinfection tests are about 50/50. They're usually spot on if they're positive. The problem is oftentimes they come back negative when they are truly positive. So the patient might get this false sense of security that, oh, I don't have that co-infection. So oftentimes— yeah, that's the tough part. So oftentimes what it will do is just base it on symptoms or just treat anyway. And then another test that— it is pretty interesting. Yes. So that's, that's the tough one with co-infections.

You're actually one of the first physicians I've heard in a while who likes the Western blot through IgeneX?

You know, I found pretty good results with it. A lot of companies are coming out with other and new and other tests, and I have done them, and I've gotten some results where I just feel like the patient is really positive and they're coming back negative, and we do test and, and then, or we do treat, I'm sorry, and it turns out that they really have Lyme. They get better with the treatment. Hmm. So then another, another one that I like to look at— so Lyme or Lyme and mold exposure often go hand in hand, so I really like to look at a mycotoxin panel as well. So if the patient is open to it, I like to do a mycotoxin panel from Real-Time Labs and kind of tease that out. I also like to do a thyroid panel just to see where they're at, a CBC, CMP. I also like to look for MTHFR as well.

Okay, and why, why exactly do Lyme and mold go hand in hand?

So oftentimes what will happen is the mold exposure will really take that patient out, their functionality away from their life. So they've had Lyme, you know, a good portion of their life, but they've been able to kind of keep it under wraps, kind of be functional, maybe not feel great but feel okay enough to get to work and kind of function. And then they'll be exposed to mold, and the mold usually just puts them over the edge, takes out their immune system, and their body really can't keep up with the Lyme any longer.

And what are you seeing as far as when you treat Lyme, is it— or when you treat the mold, is it then impacting Lyme treatment? Or do you do those— do you do those in a certain order, like deal with the Lyme and then deal with the mold? Or are you able to tackle them both at the same time?

So we used to do— so I used to do mold first because you kind of had to unpeel the onion, and mold was really the best one to attack first. However, with the disulfiram treatment, we're really finding that you don't need to do the mold first. You can actually just start with the disulfiram and finish up with the mold treatment. But it really depends on the patient. If they come in and their symptoms are more based on— if I feel like mold is their more presenting problem, we'll kind of start a little bit on the mold, bring that down a little bit, then start the disulfiram. And then finish up with the mold treatment. So it really depends on the patient.

Okay. And you are now doing— so telehealth, does that include like patients don't have to come in for that first initial visit? You can do everything through telehealth, or do they need to come in for the first visit?

Correct. I'm doing everything through telehealth now.

Wow, everything. And so then you just work with your local lab to get blood drawn?

Yes, work with your local lab. Great thing about Igenex and other labs, we can send the test kit directly to your house. You can take it to a LabCorp, a Quest, your local hospital, whatever is close to you, have the blood drawn, and I get back the results, and then we meet up again telehealth.

Wow, that's— I think that's actually one of the most incredible things that's coming out of this COVID-19 fiasco is that more and more patients are going to telehealth. And we went to an appointment just last— well, we didn't have to go to an appointment and it saved us 3 hours.

Right, right. It's pretty amazing. Drive time, waiting time, all of that. It's pretty amazing. The nice thing too about Lyme patients is often they have chemical sensitivities and really can't handle going to a doctor's office. Um, my office, I would always keep as scent-free as possible, but sure enough, you know, the patient will come in and have perfume on or something like that. And then the next patient comes in and the next patient's like, I can't stay here, I have to go, I can't do this. So that's been really nice.

So what is, what is the typical cost for to start as a new patient? Because that's probably one of the questions we get over and over again is what's the ballpark of testing? And I know that's such a general question, but for the average patient walking through the door, What is a typical cost to start? And then what are you seeing like a cost, an ongoing cost as far as like supplements and treatment?

Sure. So, um, I really like to work within the patient's budget. That's kind of what we discussed right away. What is your budget? What can you afford? Because I don't want people to be left out. Everybody deserves to be treated. If we do, um, just kind of the standard Western blot, it's only $250, which is another reason why I really do still like using the Western Western blot, and then some of the other basic tests that we need really could be as low as $500 to $1,000 for testing depending on what we do decide, which is really nice.

Yeah.

If we kind of— yeah, that's great to be able to come in and do that. If we do like the whole gamut of tests, it's more in line with like $3,500 to $4,000.

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Mm-hmm.

And then I saw on your website that you offer a discount on supplements to your patients. Tell me about that.

Yes, sure. Yes, I really like to keep my supplements as low as I can. I actually— what's really nice with telehealth is I can use a company called Fullscript. Not sure if you're familiar with it, but what happens is I go online line, and I put the patient's information in, and Fullscript emails them. They set up an account, and then I can actually pick out the product. So I can pick out the brand, I can pick out the product, shoots right directly to their email. They put in their credit card information, their shipping information, and then that company gives them a pretty good discount off the products.

Wow. Huh. I've never heard of that.

It's pretty slick and it works wonderful with telehealth.

Awesome. And as far as I understand, it covers— it actually covers a lot of brands, right? Like, not just— it's not specifically Cowden Protocol, it's not specifically— it's a mix, correct?

Correct, yes. It won't have the Cowdens not on there, Beyond Balance Byron White formulas, those wouldn't be on there. I still have to sell those directly through my company, my website, and my practice, or I'm— Cowden you can get online. But yeah, so it has all of them but those, basically.

Okay, so yeah, like Nordic Naturals, Vital Nutrients, Pure Encapsulations. I have sent them a lot of money. Yes, over the years, right?

Right. Yes, me too. Yes, it has all those good brands.

Yeah, that's awesome. And that's just so neat that you're passing that discount on to your patients. That's just an enormous benefit.

Yeah, I really try to work within people's budget because I hate when people call and they're like, well, I can't afford that, or, you know, things like that. So I try to— we work together on what labs are the most essential so they don't have to pay a ton in labs. And sometimes I do a payment plan with people just so that they can come and get better.

And what are you seeing, Elizabeth?

What—

as far as one, with kids, and two, with adults that you're treating, um, what is the average length of time? And I know that again, that's a super broad question, but recovery from neurological Lyme just seems to take multiple years, um, even after getting on top of the symptoms. So what are, what are some of the things that you're seeing?

So what I'm seeing, so with disulfiram, it's really taking only about 2 to 3 months being on the drug itself, and this is at full dose. If someone's really sick, it's gonna take them a while to get up to that full dose. And the full dose is dependent on how much they weigh. But after they're on it for about 2 to 3 months full dose, towards the end of that treatment, their symptoms have decreased. By that time, their HERCS has definitely decreased. And then once we stop the medication. It's kind of the washout period where we're getting all the dead microbes out of the body, detoxing, getting just the medication itself out of the body. And then they're really starting to feel better every day. It's still taking— you know, I ask patients for about a year or more to get better because we're still going to work on detox. A lot of people, we're still going to need to work on Bartonella, other co-infections. Mold and things like that after the disulfiram treatment. But it's— I don't know that it's actually taking less time with disulfiram, but what we're finding is people aren't relapsing.

Huh. And what is it? What's the mechanism that you think is enabling people to not relapse?

You know, researchers just don't quite know how the disulfiram is working. They just really know that it is working. My— I don't have a great hypothesis. I'm just really thankful that it's working and just so amazed. I'm just like, thank you. It's just pretty amazing. And it's such a nice treatment because you can do it at home. It's just an oral pill. It's inexpensive and it's working.

You know, the first time I heard about it was almost a year ago at the Live Lyme Summit conference. And there was a mother there and she— all 4 of her kids in Texas have Lyme, and she has not stopped talking about it in a year as far as what a big difference it's made for her entire family. And this is the medication that makes you allergic to alcohol to some extent. Does it do that with Lyme patients as well?

Yes, what it does is by design it turns off the enzyme in your body that's able to break down alcohol. So the purpose of this medication, it was created for people who were dependent on alcohol, or alcoholics we could say. And basically what happens if they're taking this medication on a regular basis, when they do take a drink, if they were to take a drink, they get the worst hangover they've ever had. So it really deters them from drinking.

That's how you feel with Lyme anyways.

I know, right? And most Lymeys don't drink anyway, so they're like, no problem, sign me up.

I remember early on in my journey before I went through treatment, like, drinking a glass of wine one night and feeling like I had a hangover for 3 days. And I'm like, what, what is happening? What is going on.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So what are you seeing as far as children? Because from everything that I'm hearing around the country, there has just been a huge spike in the number of children who are needing treatment across the country.

Sure. So the youngest I have done for a child with disulfiram is 13 years old. I have a colleague, and the youngest that he has done with disulfiram is 10 years Currently have a 13-year-old on it and he is doing great. He isn't even herxing. We're going really slow. And now that he's home from school, which is kind of nice too, so he's able to relax, sleep a little bit more, but he's just flying through the treatment and doing wonderful.

So is that treatment then, you said it's minimizing herxing?

No, it doesn't necessarily. Minimize Herxine, but we're still, Nick, we're still doing the same things that we would do with antibiotic treatment or herbals. We're still detoxing, using binders, using supplements, but I'm finding that the Herx is more cognitive and neurological than physical. So oftentimes with the herbs and the antibiotics, you have that just overall fatigue, a malaise, and you just can't even move and get out of bed.

Yeah.

And you know that, you know, well, that kind of a Herx. And this Herx is more neurological, unable to— like, more word searching, more fuzzy brain. Some people just kind of go— I hate to say the word, but kind of quote unquote a little bit crazy. They'll come to me and be like, I just made an appointment with 5 different psychologists. I don't know what's wrong with me. And I tell them, you know, take a deep breath, we'll get through this, this will pass, and take a break from the medication. They come back a week later and they're like, oh, I'm fine now. So it's, it's a different type of Herx is what I'm seeing.

Hmm, interesting. And so do you— it's not necessarily reducing the amount of time that you're in treatment, it's just making you feel better while you're doing it?

Um, I don't know that it's necessarily feeling better while you're doing it. It's just a different type of Herx, I think I would, I would say. Um, the length that you have to be on the disulfiram versus the length of being on antibiotics, I think, is shorter. Oftentimes you're on antibiotics, oral antibiotics, for 4 to 8 months, and this is closer to the 2 to the 3.

Okay, huh. So what brought you to the place where you wanted to use your education to treat one of the most complex illnesses in one of the most impoverished communities that exists? What brought you to that decision?

Right, well, I am a fellow Lyme. About halfway into my nurse practitioner program, I was diagnosed with Lyme disease. I always kind of struggled with fatigue fatigue and, and some other issues throughout my life, but I was fairly functional. I was getting more towards the end of not so functional, couldn't lift things because of neck pain and things like that. But had my son, 4 months later we moved into a house that had mold in it, and I was done. I didn't know my Social Security number. My dad took away my car keys. I mean, it was bad. Whoa. Um, yeah. It was bad. I went to a mainstream doctor and they told me to take Benadryl.

Really?

Because I had figured out at that point that the— yeah, Benadryl, because the house was moldy. I had a mold test done. So I took the test results in, asked for some testing on me. I was like, it has to be the mold. I've only lived in this house for 5 days. It has to be the house. There's no other way. There's nothing else that it could be. And yeah, I was told to take Benadryl. So I started just researching what it— what could possibly be going on, discovered multiple chemical sensitivities, then went to an environmental doctor hoping to get treatment for the mold. And she— it was a doctor in Minnesota where I'm from— and she was like, I think you have Lyme disease. And I didn't believe her. I thought it was a waste of money to get tested.

And so let me ask you this: what made you think it was a waste of time? Is it because you were familiar with Lyme on a different level?

I think I was so stuck on the mold diagnosis because I knew that I was— I felt like I had lived— I had a pretty functional life before that, even though it wasn't all that functional, but that was just my life. So I really thought that, you know, I lived in this house for 5 days and now I can no longer function, it has to be the mold. So I didn't— I didn't actually know anything about Lyme. That was probably other portion of it that I was like, Lyme disease, kind of like, what's that? So yes, I was just kind of stuck on the mold and my brain wasn't working. It was, it was pretty much shut off. So, so yeah, I just kind of gave all my— turned it over to her. She got me better. And then coming out of school, I finally was able to finish school and I just said, this is— these are the patients that I want to see and these are the people I want to help.

Hmm, how long did it take you to recover? How long did you go through treatment?

You know, in total, I would say that I didn't feel completely well until about 5 years after treatment.

Interesting, huh?

I was— it took a while.

I was telling someone that on a coaching call the other day. They were freaking out because they'd been out of treatment for like 3 months, and I was like I was like, um, here's the reality. I was like, uh, I did massive treatment for about 2.5, 3 years, like every day, uh, you know, 6 days a week. And I said, but it took me, I remember I had a neighbor who had had Lyme and I was like, how long is this gonna take? And she goes, 5 years. And I was like, no way, no way. Mm-hmm. And for me, right about the 5-year mark, I was off of everything and was at the point where I could exercise again.

Yes, yes, I would say that was kind of where I'm at too. I actually am 5 months pregnant right now, so I don't feel great, but I think it's the pregnancy. But prior to the pregnancy, yeah, I could finally exercise, do all of those great things. Yeah, I was back to being me. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But it did— I mean, I improved each year and I could see progress. But it took a lot of hard work and it takes time. Yeah, it does.

How do you manage expectations for clients when they come in?

How do—

because, um, I mean, it's one of the things I feel like we try to do on the podcast is manage expectations. Like, your life is probably not going to go back to normal right away. Like, this is a life-altering, trajectory-altering illness. So how do you manage expectations with your patient to say, hey, this could be a 5-year journey?

That's a great question, and it is a hard one to manage. I always ask my patients to give me at least 1 year of their time because really, in less than a year, you— it's hard to see any real good results. And actually, oftentimes you're gonna feel a little bit worse within that first year. So I'm just really upfront with them. I often tell them that it's a marathon and not a sprint, and I just really try to get get buy-in from them.

Hmm. So how has your experience after having both mold issues and Lyme— how does that implement, or how does that impact your practice?

You know, when I first started, I think I still had a little bit of brain fog going on, so I think it took me a little bit longer to do things. I think I still got it done, but it took me a little bit longer. As I've been healing, getting better, it's amazing. I'll look back on those first few months and be like, oh, I remember when I had to do this, this, and this, and had Post-it notes everywhere in my office. So it's taken me a little bit longer to do those, to get, to get to that point. But I think it's really given me a lot of empathy for my patients. I think without having the disease, I think it would— I would treat completely different. But having the disease, I know oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes what they're feeling, how they're feeling. I know the implications related to your, your spouse or your family, people who don't believe you, people who think you're making it up. I've been there, so I feel like I have a lot more empathy for my patients.

Yeah, I'm sure. You know, it's interesting when I have gotten to talk or interview people who are already in the medical field and then get diagnosed, it's been quite intriguing because they go through their own separate journey. Like, as a patient, you're like, okay, am I losing my mind, blah, blah, blah. But if you already have a medical background, and you're either being told it's all in your head, and you should take Benadryl, I have found their journeys to be very interesting, because they've had to learn to advocate for themselves in ways that most physicians don't have to do, or practitioners.

I would agree, absolutely. And go ahead.

No, I was just gonna say, did you deal with any of that coming from a medical— even a medical family? I don't know if you have a medical family, but if your family believes in Western medicine, sometimes it's hard to get them on board for treating Lyme because you have to usually use alternative and Western medicine.

Yes, that was definitely a challenge. I, um, I have a brother that's in the medical field and he definitely is mainstream medicine, doesn't really believe it. He had a a positive test come back, but he's like, nope, I'm good. So definitely that has happened.

He had a positive Lyme test?

He did. Mm-hmm. And he actually did the culture, which is the gold standard. And yeah, he just— he's just not gonna— not gonna buy it. He says he's fine. Big hunter, fisherman, and he's just in the woods all the time in Minnesota.

Oh man, so many people in Minnesota are sick.

For nearly two decades, Invita Medical Center has been leading the way with the latest in personalized treatment options designed for patients dealing with Lyme disease complex. At Invita Medical Center, they offer a team-style approach and the latest technology regarding treatment and testing. At an unmatched radical love and care environment for their patients. Call to speak to one of the patient care coordinators today to learn why hundreds of patients choose Invita Medical Center each year. You can find them online at invita.com.

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And so many people in Minnesota are sick.

I know, there's so many. It's just amazing. Yeah, my whole family basically has Lyme. My husband, my son. Yeah, it's just, it's just pretty amazing. Wow.

Huh. Do you think they got it in Minnesota?

My son, I believe, got it from me. My husband— yeah, and I wonder about my husband. He grew up in Kansas City, so I'm not sure. There's a lot of ticks there as well. He said he's had a lot of tick bites. He has no symptoms. That's, that's part of it as well. I do have him on disulfiram right right now. He's not Herxing or anything, flying through it pretty well.

So let's talk about congenital Lyme just for a few minutes. Because I have 3 biological kids and 2 of them, we've tested 2 of them who had symptoms and stuff years ago. But how would you as a practitioner treat congenital Lyme? Because it just seems to me, I'm— I have no medical background whatsoever, just from talking to hundreds of people like the congenital Lyme seems to come out like deeper in, in some instances.

So I believe that I have congenital Lyme and got it from my mother, and I, I would agree with that. The other part is, is you live with these symptoms your whole life, so you don't even realize they're symptoms. The other thing that I found is you're all sitting— you're sitting around the dinner table with your mom, your dad, your brothers and sisters talking about maybe, oh, this hurts, or that hurts, or I'm tired, or things like that, and the person sitting next to you has the exact same symptoms. So they're like, oh, you're fine, that happens to me too. So you get this kind of idea that that's just how it is in my family, that's just how we are. So I feel like that happens a lot. And I have seen with the congenital Lyme that patients do have oftentimes a more significant illness Hmm.

What do you think about, as you were saying that, like sitting around the table? This is something my husband and I have talked a lot about is when you've been sick for years, right? And especially if your mom's been sick or you have a general sense of malaise over your entire household, or you don't sign up for physical activities because half of you can't do them. And so how, how do you counteract those learned sick behaviors? When it's all you've known, or it's all you've known for the last few years?

It is— that is really interesting. I do feel as you get more well and stronger and start feeling better, some, you know, oftentimes you'll start reaching out to more people, having people over for dinner, maybe doing more sports. And I feel like you kind of slowly get back to society, but it's It's definitely interesting, especially when it's the whole family. You just kind of become this homebody type group, and that's kind of what you do.

Yeah, I know, it's weird. It's, it's so dysfunctional.

It is. And it's all you know too, and especially if you have congenital Lyme and grew up that way as well, it's just like, this is what you know.

How big of a part do you think the mental health aspect is of recovery?

I think it's a really big part. I really like Annie Hopper's DNRS program to kind of help you get through some of those issues, but I think people really— you kind of have to have a clear head, so it takes a while for you to get that clear head after treatment and then after detox, and then you really have to kind of look back, I think it's almost like losing a loved one when you go through the different stages of guilt and grief and all that, because you kind of— you've lost a part of your life. You know, you might look back and say, man, I lost 10 years of my life. I lost 20 years of my life. It's almost like losing a loved one. So you really need grief counseling, trauma counseling oftentimes, and you really have to dig into that and let it go and move on.

Do you think people are able to do that during treatment, or is that something that maybe comes later?

You know, I think it depends on the patient, but I'd say more often than not it's something that can be better dealt with later when you're clear-headed. When you try too hard when you're still Herxine and your brain is so fuzzy, I think it's hard for people.

Yeah. So what is your primary recommendations for detox?

So for detox, I really like coffee enemas, saunas, and detox baths. A really good binder. I really like Onda numbers for cellular drainage. So I focus on different organ systems and drain that organ system and then kind of move on from there. They're just homeopathic remedies. And it really kind of depends on the person. Glutathione can work for some, but for others it aggravates them. And then there's some really good IV therapies too that can be really helpful.

And do you do— do you use antibiotics on a regular basis, or what is your preferred method of treatment?

It really depends on the patient. I do feel that I, well, now with disulfiram, I'm not using any antibiotics for Lyme. I'm just using the disulfiram. Prior to using the disulfiram, it was kind of a combination of antibiotics and herbs. I do feel that antibiotics work better, but a lot of my patients in my area really are so opposed to antibiotics and really wanted to work with the herbs. Okay.

That just blew my mind. So the fact that you have been using that has eliminated the need to use other antibiotics, like the more traditional?

Correct.

Wow.

Mm-hmm. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, just disulfiram. So if someone's on antibiotics, we slowly reduce the antibiotics, get them off of the antibiotics, get them on the disulfiram, and then, then they're just on the disulfiram.

So they're not taking doxy, they're not taking— oh gosh, whatever other 6 other antibiotics I took.

Correct. So it's great. We're not 100% sure that the disulfiram doesn't mess with your gut health, but we're thinking that it doesn't. It seems to allow the gut— your gut health to remain healthy. So that's wonderful. Still doing good probiotics and things like that along the way, there's some indication that it might even kill Candida overgrowth as well.

Wow, that is fascinating.

Oh, and I forgot to mention also that they're pretty confident that it's hitting Babesia as well.

Really? How is that possible?

I don't know, but I'll take it. They're thinking Babesia. And then another doctor that's been doing a lot of clinical trials, he really feels that it's hitting Bartonella based on Herx's. So people who are taking it are really having like the Bartonella Herx, but there's no research yet that it's hitting Bartonella, but there is research that is hitting the Babesia.

So what do you do? What would you describe a Bartonella Herx as?

You know, it's when it— when it's an increase of the Bartonella symptoms. So for instance, like the, the pain on the bottom of the feet, more of the heart palpitations, some of the anxiety, some things that are more geared towards the Bartonella.

Oh, okay.

I personally— does that kind of make sense?

Yeah, I've never heard someone say like, oh, a Bartonella Herx. Like, I've heard Herxing in general, but not Specific. That makes sense, an increase of those specific symptoms.

Mm-hmm. And that's what he's seen with his patients. With my patients, what I've been doing is after we finish up the disulfiram, I move right on to treatment for Bartonella just to be safe.

Oh, okay, so double whammy.

Mm-hmm. I just feel like it can't hurt.

One of the questions that I see a lot is when people have recovered to some extent extent, but they're still taking tons of supplements and tons of herbs. When do you quit treating? And do you quit treating?

You know, it kind of depends on the patient, but once their symptoms have really reduced, they're feeling better, they're no longer herxing when they are taking the medications for a specific coinfection or the Lyme, and they can just take it like a normal person and feel fine. Is usually when I like to stop. Can also pull back for a couple weeks and see if symptoms return. Oftentimes I'll move on to like the Cowden protocol and have them do that for 6 months to 9 months, something like that, just to give them a little extra push. But it's really when that hertz resolves during the treatment and then a reduction in symptoms Okay.

So then after treatment, then you, you like the Cowden protocol as well?

You know, it depends on the patient. I usually lean a little bit more towards the Byron Wright formulas and the Beyond Balance a little bit more, but the Cowden's nice. It's a little bit less potent than the two. I've— my understanding and the way I've seen it is the Cowden and then Beyond Balance and then Byron Wright, with Byron Wright being the strongest. Strongest and the COWDEN being the least strong. So it depends on the patient. Someone who's pretty sensitive, I might have them go on the COWDEN for a while. The other thing that's nice about the COWDEN is that it's all set up for the patient so they can kind of do that on their own without needing to keep having to come in and see me. So it's something that kind of empowers them and lets them kind of do it on their own for a good 9 months, 12 months, something like that.

Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Huh.

Man, it's just crazy that that one medication is eliminating the need for other long-term antibiotics.

It is really amazing. It's— yeah, absolutely amazing. And it's amazing that it's a drug that we've had around for a long time and it wasn't even really treated. It wasn't even developed to treat like a physical condition, you know. I mean, dependency is physical, but it's not, you know, blood pressure medication or something like that, a heart medication. It's just— it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. So let me ask you this: where do you think in the next few years— okay, well, let me ask you two questions. You, in your experience and stuff, recovery is probably about a 5-year process.— for, and I know we're talking massive general— generalities here, but about a 5-year process. Where do you think we're gonna be 20 years from now in treating Lyme? Like, what are you seeing? Do you see that we're working in the right direction and quality of life is going to improve for the average patient? Or what are you seeing in your practice? Because it's so cost-prohibitive. This is just— this illness is an enormous— I mean, if you have to spend $20,000 to get a diagnosis, that prevents a lot of people even from getting a diagnosis.

I really— my hope is that we keep progressing forward and we find drugs like disulfiram that are inexpensive, you can do at home, you can move forward, you can get better. That's my hope. And honestly, with this disulfiram breakthrough, I have more faith that that's where we're going to go. I do worry about other things such as 5G and other things like that, if they're going to take a toll on our health and the increase in toxins that we consume through our food. So I have a big fear of that. Um, but with Lyme itself, I'm really hopeful that with disulfiram, we really need a disulfiram-type drug for Bartonella, some of these other co-infections. And if we can get that, I think we can really progress.

Hmm, what is your thoughts on 5G?

You know, I haven't done a lot of research on it, but I do have concern that it's going to make people a lot more ill. I've heard people who— they get it in their office building and they can no longer go to work and things like that. But I don't have a lot of, a lot of knowledge on it at this time.

And do you attribute that— that's not a chemical sensitivity, it's Um, what is that?

What type of sense? Electromagnetic. I mean, just more of like an electromagnetic sensitivity. And oftentimes, once we do treat patients for Lyme and treat them from multiple chemical sensitivities and things like that, that sensitivity to it will decrease. So it's kind of a cumulative sensitivity. But, um, I don't know, I just worry about things like that and the next the next thing that we come out with that we think is going to solve the world's problems but makes us sick.

Hmm. So how big, how big of a piece is diet in your opinion in the recovery process?

You know, when I was getting treated, it was a really big piece, but I think it was almost too much emphasis on it. I try to make the diet doable for the patient, because if I give them a crazy diet and they don't follow it, then there's no good of the diet. So I try not to go too nuts with it. I ask my patients to do sugar-free, dairy-free, gluten-free, which is pretty intense itself, but I'm not gonna lie. But, and I try to meet the patient halfway. I really do like the GAPS diet along the way too, if the patient's patient is on board, but it really depends on the patient and their willingness to put the effort forth. Some patients just really fight the diet piece, and, and I don't choose to fight it with them. I choose to figure out something that works for everybody. But definitely Candida— Candida and fungal overgrowth and stuff like that is definitely a big thing that needs to be treated with diet.

Hmm, interesting. You know, it's fascinating just getting to hear so many different physician opinions, author opinions, patient opinions, and like trying to dig through all of it and be like, okay, what works? What is working?

I know, it's so hard. It's so hard. My biggest thing with the patients is really to have them switch over to organic, organic foods, whole foods, filtering their water. A big one with me, with my local patients in Steamboat, is the filtering water because we, we live up in the mountains and we actually have pretty good water, but it's not as good as people think because they're putting chlorine in it, fluoride in it, things like that. So that's always kind of a struggle with patients to be like, what do you mean, we have great water? Um, so that's a big one, but I really try not to overemphasize the food. I've had patients coming from other providers and they're on the strictest diets, they've lost so much weight and they're so obsessed with the food aspect that they just can't move on. And I don't want my, my patients to become just completely obsessed with the food, so I try not to go there.

Hmm, that's very understanding of you.

And, and I try to build it up as we go also. So once they kind of— what happens is they'll usually be kind of on board. They're like, you know what, gluten-free really wasn't that bad. I, I can do this. And I'm like, great, let's try dairy-free now. Well, let's progress. Um, when I was doing it, um, I was sugar-free, dairy-free, gluten-free, and fat-free. Um, my provider— yes, my provider thought, um, and I don't know if she's still— if this is still working for her in her practice or not, but, um, to knock down the, um, the biofilms, the fat-free is really helpful, is what her thoughts were. But I got down to close to 100 pounds. I was completely obsessed with what I was eating. It was easier just not to eat at all than to follow this diet. So I just didn't eat. And I think that's where, where I kind of come from, like, let's not go crazy on the diet. Let's do what we can and meet in the middle.

Hmm. Sounds very logical. I, and I'm thinking, I'm just thinking like for me it was pretty easy to make those diet changes, but I have a teenager who, you know, doesn't want to eat gluten-free and he's my kiddo, right? Congenital Lyme. So I'm always like, oh my gosh, which battle do I fight?

Yes. Well, that's just it. Which one do you fight? Yeah. I kind of look at it like that. I have a 5-year-old and he does not eat that great. Same thing. So it's kind of, I look at it with my patients too. Like, let's— we'll get there. Let's, you know, it might take a little bit longer because we're not eating exactly how we should. But if you're eating whole foods, you're eating organic, you're filtering your water, you're not eating sugar— I mean, no gluten, that's pretty good. No dairy, that's pretty good.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Huh.

So what do you see as being— what do you see as being the difference between people who are getting better and people who aren't?

Have you figured out a question? Oftentimes it's mold in the house or the workplace, or maybe even the car. So unidentified mold, and they may be resistant to it. It might— they might even know it's there. A lot of times, once I start really asking questions, we find out they're like, well, we did have that pipe that burst 5 years ago, or something like that, but kind of in denial. Or the spouse is in denial and they're like, my spouse refuses to do anything about it. But it's often that mold is a big one.

Hmm. I went out to Invita Medical out in Scottsdale back in 2013 when I was totally dying, and We started the podcast not too long after that. So I started hearing from people who had gone out there as well. And I mean, it still took me years to recover, but the people who I was following who did not get better, all of them, which was like a total of 5, all of them went home to houses that had mold and found out with it happens.

Yeah.

I found out within 6 to 18 months that that's what they were dealing with, remediated it, and then just started improving so much.

Isn't it amazing?

What do you think statistically how many homes are dealing with mold?

So for my personal experience, we tried to— we were looking for a new home and it took us 3 years to actually find a house that— well, A, we needed like a garage that wasn't attached to the house because of all the toxins and stuff like that. But based on mold, it took us 3 years to find a house to move into.

I believe that.

Yes. So I feel like it's very, very prevalent. I would say 90% of the houses have some degree of mold, and it just depends what, what your body's able to handle, your sensitivity level. Wow.

And what tests do you recommend? That's just my Well, that's valid. No, it's important too, because even I've— I just recently, my husband's health has gone downhill, and I'm like, huh, I wonder if we have mold. But it's also been really stressful. Um, but he, he was like, well, what if we think about moving this summer? And I was like, I am scared to death to move because of mold. Like, I just know so many people. You're not the only one. I know so many people who have spent way too long either buying land and trying to build so that they know that they're gonna move into a home that doesn't have mold. But it's a huge thing, and I find that it usually takes years to resolve or remediate or find a new home.

It does. And building isn't always the answer either, because then you have the off-gassing. Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's difficult. Yeah, so it takes about 10 years for a house to off-gas So the ideal house, in my opinion, is a house that's about 10 years old that hasn't had any water damage. And it's not easy to find one of those houses depending where you live.

Wow, 10 years to off-gas?

Mm-hmm, that's what studies show, about 10 years.

Wow, that's a long time.

It is a long time. We were— after looking for 3 years, we kind of threw our hands up and said said, "Let's build," and started looking into, you know, green ways to build a house and things like that. And it actually doubles the cost. After talking to contractors enough, it basically doubles the cost per square foot to build like a completely green, non-toxic house. And still, there's the risk that you might move in and somebody used the wrong kind of glue or something, and you're so sensitive that you just can't handle it.

Man, life should not be this complicated.

I know.

I just want to go on the record.

Not be this complicated.

Like, are you kidding me?

Like, my husband would agree with you.

Like, you overcome Lyme, you deal with co-infections, you have to find a new house, or like— oh my gosh, it's nuts.

It is pretty amazing.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time and your energy, and I love your heart and your spirit. We got to meet a few years back. I think it was like 3 years ago, wasn't it?

I think so too, at one of the Live Lime conferences.

I think it was. Um, and I just love what you're doing for your patients and just your heart for them and willingness to work with budgets. So I'm really excited to bring your information on air.

Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This has been a great opportunity.

How do people get in touch with you?

So they can go to my website, which is integrativehealthcolorado.com, or reach me by phone at 720-470-9124.

And you can do telehealth in both New Mexico, Colorado, and Idaho, correct?

And Wisconsin. Oh, so— and Arizona. So Arizona, New Mexico, Idaho, Wisconsin, and Minnesota— I'm sorry, Colorado, not Minnesota. But actually, right now I can do telehealth in all 50 states. We're— they've opened that all up to providers to be able to do that. Because of COVID and some people are saying they might just keep that open after all this ends. So I'm really hopeful that I might be able to practice in all 50 states going forward.

That would be so huge. I was gonna ask you that. Do you think it's gonna continue?

You know, I don't know, but I've talked to a lot of key players with some telehealth platforms, and they really do think that this is gonna continue. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't continue at least for a couple years.

Man, that would be so huge. Even to be able, you know, I've— my doctors that I've known and trusted have been in Arizona, but just having being in Colorado and my people being out there in Arizona, there's prescriptions I can't get filled. It's a, it's a huge hassle.

Right, right, absolutely. Yeah, so I feel like this just opens it up, and I'm really excited to be able to do this. And I really, at first At first, I kind of hesitated to treat Lyme via telehealth, but now that I'm doing it, I feel like it's almost better because these patients are more relaxed. They're in an environment that's safe. They're able to really communicate via telehealth, and it's working really well. I never would have believed that it was a good way to practice with Lyme disease because I always felt such a need to have that physical exam. But it's easy to work around it with the web and seeing them on video. You can have them walk, you can have them show you like the Bartonella lines on their forearms, things like that. And it's, it's really working great.

Wow, that's awesome. I remember so many years like going to appointments and especially like a pain appointment or something and you're like, yes, I'm miserable. I see you every week. Like it would have been really nice to have telehealth back then.

Right? Yeah, I— my doctor was in Minnesota and I traveled all the way from Colorado. It took me 3 hours to drive to the airport in Denver, then an airplane flight, and then from Minneapolis I had to drive another 3 hours to get there. It took like 2 days. Oh my, it was horrible. Yeah, I don't even know how I did it. But yeah, telehealth would have been amazing back then.

Well, we can all thank COVID-19 for giving us telehealth. If nothing else. If nothing else, exactly. Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time.

Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate your time as well.

Hi guys, I want to let you know about a book I wrote called Little Bite, Big Trouble, and I'm gonna read a review that recently came in. This is from Carolyn, and she said Thank you so much for writing your book. It has become the means by which I have explained Lyme to my 4-year-olds. They ask for it to be read as a bedtime story over and over again and love that the mama birdie does yoga and juicing like their mommy. I can't thank you enough for writing this book. It has helped my family so much. You can find it today at amazon.com, Little Bite, Big Trouble. Disease is contrary to life. Therefore, wherever disease exists, life must also fight to exist.

Good job fighting, Lyme fighters!

Keep it up.

We'll see you next time.

LymeVoice contains general information about medical conditions and treatments. The information is not advice and should not be treated as such. Okay, Lincoln?

Okay.

The medical information on LionVoice is provided as is without any representations, warranties, expressed or implied.

Okay?

Okay. LionVoice makes no representations or warranties in relation to the medical information on this podcast. You must not rely on the information on this podcast as an alternative to medical advice from your doctor or other professional healthcare provider. If you have any Any specific questions about your medical matter, you should consult your doctor or other professional healthcare provider. And for you, you consult your parents, okay?

Okay.

If you think you may be suffering from any medical condition, you should seek immediate medical attention. You should never delay seeking medical advice, disregard medical advice, or discontinue medical treatment because of information on this podcast. Got it, Lincoln?

Got it.