117 Cannabis As Medicine with Pharmacist Christine Arseneau

Welcome to the Lyme Voice Network. We are chronic illness warriors, caretakers, and advocates who are overcoming illness in all of its many forms. We created this show to inspire, educate, and encourage you on your path to wellness. We're here to help you put the puzzle pieces of healing into place. Join us and our network of Lyme warriors as we discuss how fighting is a mindset, healing consists of choices, and living is the outcome.

Hello friends, today's podcast is brought to you by these sponsors. Urbane Medical. Urbane Medical is a boutique ketamine infusion center located in Scottsdale, Arizona. They provide a hospitable environment rather than a hospital environment. They're eager to accommodate your family in any way they can during your time of healing. Ketamine can promote a sense of well-being, decreases brain fog, and reduces chronic nerve pain. I interview the owner Jonathan in episode 109 for more information. I can attest what a therapeutic environment they offer at Urbane Medical. And Jonathan Evertson, the owner, makes you feel safe and comfortable and also has some really fantastic playlists available upon request. I have seen with a number of my coaching clients that ketamine is a game changer on a number of levels. So if you are in the Scottsdale area, check out Urbane Medical. Invita Medical Center, located in Scottsdale, Arizona. What defines Invita is the undeniable truth that every patient who has the courage to comes to Invita and walks through their doors discovers the incredible healing and compassionate care that can only exist in a clinic that is radically focused on patient outcomes. They provide a focused team of people with an exceptional heart for serving their patients. At Invita, they have discovered a revolutionary solution for patients to help improve their quality of life. Call to speak with one of their patient care coordinators today. Invita helped save my life back in 2013, long before this podcast existed, and they became a sponsor. They also helped stop Lyme carditis after getting reinfected a couple of years ago. I highly recommend them, and you can hear more about Invita in episode 80. Medical Bill Gurus. The experts at Medical Bill Gurus are dedicated to innovative solutions for any medical bill. Billing scenario, which we all have in this community. Oh my gosh. With empathy at the forefront of their daily mission, Medical Bill Gurus is dedicated to being in the trenches with patients and raise awareness for the daily challenges facing them. From medical billing errors to raising awareness for their diagnosis, Medical Bill Gurus takes pride in speaking with patients every day and helping them find guidance on how to navigate our broken healthcare Their patient advocates are available to help reduce medical bills and assist patients with navigating a dynamic health landscape. I also interviewed Daniel Lynch, founder of Medical Bill Gurus, in episode 111. In addition to helping you get money back from your insurance company, if you need help deciphering what health insurance provider to choose— and I have done this several times a year for years— years now, or you are looking for a clinic that is covered by insurance, they are a great resource for all things related to medical bills, figuring out which insurance provider you could or should have. They're an awesome resource. Again, I use them multiple times a year. Give them a call. All right, now on to the show. Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of Lyme Voice. With me today is Christine Arsenault. Christine— Dr. Christine Arsenault is passionate about helping people with Lyme disease thrive. She knows this journey all too well because she was able to overcome her own struggles with multiple tick-borne infections and is now in vibrant health. Christine earned her doctorate in pharmacy in 2008 and has a unique skill set due to her diverse work and entrepreneurial spirit. Her professional experience includes completing a residency, working as a clinical pharmacist in a large teaching hospital, founding a natural skincare company, corporate wellness coaching, and managing an integrative pharmacy while she worked with nutritionists, herbalists, and other practitioners to emphasize a holistic approach for patients. She's a functional medicine certified health coach, has certifications in cannabis medicine from Oxford University. I didn't even know that was a thing. America's apparently, it's America's first cannabis college. Cannot wait to hear more about that. And she's also a member of the International Society of Cannabis Pharmacists. Christine, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So tell us how you come, how you start out being a pharmacist. And then you become a cannabis pharmacist and everything in between, you know?

Yeah, well, so I went into healthcare because I'm passionate about helping people and I've always been kind of more open to holistic ways and alternative methods. I grew up mostly in Germany, which there's a little bit, alternative medicine is a little bit more accepted there. I think that's part of it. And as I went through pharmacy school and started working as a pharmacist, I realized that not everything in pharmacy school or in the pharmaceutical realm really kind of resonated with me, spoke to me. And so I've always been passionate about health and wellness, and I feel like our medical system is a little bit more of a sick care system than a healthcare system. And so we don't focus on the optimal health and having people really live their best life. We focus on when something goes wrong and the test results are bad, and now what do we do to kind of fix them? So I've just always kind of had a different outlook and I kind of got more and more natural and alternative after becoming a pharmacist and just started educating myself on some other, other modalities to stay well and just really kind of, kind of dug into what can get people healthy. And I don't think just dispensing pharmaceuticals is the answer for that.

So you actually went into this kind of with that somewhat holistic mindset.

Yeah, but it was like more so the more— like, I guess the more I saw like side effects of medications and people being on so many medications, and part of them were because of side effects of another medication, and just like seeing people, we'd patch them up, they'd go home, and then they'd be right back in the hospital. It just kind of— I just felt like there needed to be a better way. And that coupled with my own health issues and struggles and realizing like what health meant to me and how I could be in my vibrant health, that really was a big part of my journey as well.

So tell us about that. Tell us about your own journey and battling tick-borne illnesses, getting diagnosed with meningitis. Like, you've had a long, complex history and in spite of that have come out. So, so tell us a little bit about your journey.

Yeah. So I think I contracted Lyme disease when I was 9. I got bit by a tick when I was 9. I didn't think anything of it, of course, at the time. I don't even think I told an adult. I just, I remember pulling it off of me. It was like very engorged in my groin area. And I think I probably just like pulled it off with my hands, didn't tell an adult and just moved on with my life. But that's, that's where I'm thinking it started. It's hard to say. When I look back at my childhood, I always kind of thought I was healthy. But looking back, I had psoriasis and all kinds of skin issues, all kinds of gut issues. I couldn't, couldn't hold down food a lot until I cut out gluten from my diet. All these things. And so, like, looking back, I see that maybe there was something going on, but I have always kind of been healthy, like, focused on health and wellness, like I mentioned. And so I had a very healthy lifestyle and I just kind of dealt with each symptom when it came up and didn't really make any connections. And then I had a miscarriage and it was a pretty traumatic event because it developed into this rare form of cancer where the fetal cells stay in your body and start replicating and they can metastasize. And so I had to go to the cancer center for treatments and see an oncologist for that. And it was just like, I went from expecting a child to getting chemo infusions. And it was just like, that was like a big moment for me where it was like something like, it just, it was very surreal. Like I thought of myself as young and vibrant and healthy, like getting ready to become a mother. And then boom, I'm like the sick patient at the cancer center. And it just didn't feel like that, that it was real. It didn't feel like that was my life. And then I still kind of thought that was just like a one-off crazy random thing that happened to me. And then a year after that, I got meningitis and I was in the hospital. And at that point I was like, okay, maybe there's something going on, maybe some underlying immune system issue, something. I had been working professionally with a doctor who had Lyme disease and his whole family had Lyme disease and I was doing corporate wellness programs with him and we just kept running into people that had Lyme disease and he had kind of like mentioned that maybe I should get tested but I was like in denial. I didn't really think I was sick.

Let's talk about this. What was your understanding of Lyme disease at that point? That point when someone first said to you, hey, maybe, are you like, yeah, did it register?

So for me, it actually— I, I actually knew a lot about Lyme disease because it kept coming into my life. I kept having clients, people reaching out to me telling me about these weird symptoms, and it sounded like Lyme, or like I knew enough about it from other people. And I actually even had— there was even a presentation at the hospital I worked at about long-term Lyme disease and by one of the resident doctors. And so like, I— it kept coming up in, in these various ways. And then I knew— I worked with infectious disease doctors within the hospital, and I knew their outlook, and I knew how it was different than the ILADS perspective. And because I was a medical professional, I already kind of had this— I already saw the big picture, and I already knew like what doctors would be able to help me and which ones wouldn't, and like what Lyme disease actually means. And actually Actually, when I was growing up as well, I had my dad's secretary died suddenly from Lyme disease. Whoa. When I was like an adolescent, I remember that. So just like randomly it affected my life and enough so that I was like, I need to learn more about this. And then so that's when I flew out to ILADS as a practitioner and went to San Diego for a big ILADS conference. And I was like, I need to learn more about this. And as I sat there and I was listening to presentations and they were talking about gut issues and yeast issues and gluten and all of this, I was like, hmm, this all sounds way too familiar. Like, maybe I should get tested. It was like up until then I had just been in denial and I just kept putting one foot in front of the other and just like not realizing there was something wrong with my health. But after, after those big events and at that point point I was like starting to get really sick and my level of fatigue was extreme and I, I couldn't, I just couldn't deny it anymore. Like there was something going on and I needed to just do the testing and figure it out.

So you get tested. Yes. Does the test come back positive?

It did because it was Igenex, or it was like indeterminate. So a lot of the bands were positive, some were indeterminate. It was Igenex positive but CDC indeterminate or probably negative. But that was enough to get started. And then once I started, it was like one thing after another. Like I had so many co-infections and viruses and yeast issues and all of these things. So it was like, it felt really, really hopeless. Even though it was like I had the answer of a diagnosis and there was some comfort in that, it like all of a sudden it felt really overwhelming and hopeless because it was like, I have Bartonella and Babesia and mycoplasma and Parvo. Parvovirus and HHV-6 and like all of these things. And I was just like, how could I have so many things wrong with me? How could I have been in denial for so long? And like, yeah, I just, I have kind of that type A personality where I just keep pushing through, pushing through, pushing through. And I just like had this big realization, like actually something is really wrong and my immune system is obviously not healthy if I am like just overcome with all of these pathogens.

Yeah. So in the midst of this, you go through treatment. Okay. And what treatment? As someone who's in the pharmaceutical realm but also dipping their toes in the holistic and sounds like somewhat functional medicine, you're— you make the decision to go through treatment. How? Like, how do you do that?

So I moved. First of all, I was like, I need to change my life. So I moved from Michigan to California and I actually found one of the doctors that was at ILADS who I really enjoyed his presentations. I'm, I was like, I want him to be my doctor. So part of the reason I moved to California was I felt like there was more Lyme literate physicians here. And also I just felt like I wasn't living my true life. I didn't love Michigan. I needed a change and I knew I just needed to focus on my health and well-being. So that's what I did for about 4 years, is just like fully concentrate on my healing. I, I worked with the functional medicine practitioner, I worked with a functional neurologist, I worked, you know, with acupuncture, massage therapists, health coaches, you know, I had a team of people. I worked with different people throughout, but ultimately it came down to myself. And what could I do to heal myself? And just having that realization that I already have everything I need inside of me to heal. It's just about nourishing myself and loving myself and giving my body what it needs. And our bodies are these amazing things that can overcome disease if you just give them the right tools.

Yeah, and I know— so Christine's website is limesupport.com. And I— and she talks about this. It's a great resource. But her and I have talked about the whole mind-body connection. Yes. And I'm not kidding when I say that, like, over and over again, every practitioner that I have interviewed this fall and like for the next several weeks, I have recordings scheduled. Every practitioner is saying— and they're coming from different— some of them are chemists, Some of them are running labs, some of them are treating patients, some of them are not treating patients anymore, but they're just doing education for other practitioners. And they are all talking about the mind-body connection and the mindset, the mindfulness aspect of things, and how you cannot truly recover without it. Like, do your pharmaceuticals, do your holistic stuff, do whatever you're gonna do, your lasers or your foot baths whatever it is. But if you don't deal with the mindfulness aspect, if you don't put yourself in an environment that you love, in an environment that you can thrive in, or something that builds you up as a person, that mind-body connection, you're, you're either going to relapse or not recover or not be in that place of thriving.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think I know a single person who is fully well that didn't address the mind-body aspects, especially for somebody that's been sick for a long time. You know, maybe somebody that had the classic diagnosis and got treated right away, but for people that have been sick for a while, it's because there's things that haven't been addressed, whether it's emotional, spiritual, mental. You know, there's things that you just, you have to get through those blocks in order to truly heal.

Yeah, it's such a huge component that is widely ignored, I think, or has been widely ignored, especially as we merge into— we're, in my opinion, years into socialized medicine. I don't know if technically it's socialized medicine, but I, I was an entrepreneur. I've been self-employed for a long time, and I was an entrepreneur who bought her own health insurance before Obamacare. And like months into Obamacare, those programs ceased to exist. We we could not even purchase our good healthcare anymore outside of having a big corporation. And so as we head into now, you know, we're over a decade into what I feel like is socialized medicine, and we're really treating the body with these Newtonian switches or theologies of switch on, switch off, find something that's wrong and fix it while ignoring the fact that we're all made up of energy. Energy is a frequency. That you can control, right? Like, that's so huge. There's so many deep, deep layers to the mindset mindfulness aspect. And from what you're saying, you dove in for 4 years just to neutralize, get everything back up and running, and you spent 4 years focusing on whatever it was that you felt like you needed.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, I think you said it great, the way the Newtonian concept— it's like healthcare became just, we're physical beings and you treat with chemicals that change your chemistry. But we're more than just that, we're energy, like you said. And yeah, so during my healing, I, I really got into like Dr. Bruce Lipton and the book right here. Yeah, like The Biology of Belief. It's one of his books. Yep, exactly. And how your genes are literally turned on and off by thoughts that you have. And Dr. Joe Dispenza, another person that I really learned from, and he talks about quantum physics and how if you can heal in that, you know, out of that time-space continuum, it can be profound. Like energy and matter, E equals mc squared, right? Energy and matter are the same thing. But people try to change matter with matter, but you can also change it with energy. And just because you can't see energy doesn't mean it's not scientific. You know, there's, there's physics to back it up. It's just that we aren't that familiar. And if you're looking at mind, body, spirit and you're only looking at the body, then you're missing over 60% of the rest of it. So it doesn't matter. Like, people always ask me, like, what protocol did you do? And they want to know 'Exactly what supplements I took?' And it's like, I don't know. I took— like, I took so many, and I took different ones at various times, and I adjusted them based on how I felt. Like, I can't just give somebody a list— 'Here, take this and you're cured.' Like, it's not how it works. And if you're only focused on the physical, then you're missing all of that, the rest of the picture. So you're not gonna be able to heal with just looking at that one aspect.

It's so true, and I've said this on air a bunch of times, but In 2013 is when I officially got a diagnosis. I'd been in bed for 2 years but in excruciating pain for 7— seizures, the whole works. But, um, so I went through and dove in physically and then also implemented— I went through Invita Medical's 2-month program, but then when I came home, I implemented the Gerson protocol, which is juicing and coffee enemas, because it gave me energy, which is something I hadn't had in a lot of years. So I stuck with it, but So that was like, and I remember at that point, and I've said it so many times, realizing like my life did not look like anyone else's life for many years. It was probably, I felt like it was a 5-year window before I like was up and functioning and had energy and could be the type of mom. I'm not 100%, but I'm really close. But that's been the cycle. Well, so you dive in and do the physical stuff, right? Well, then, then for years now I'm walking out the emotional—

Oh yeah.

Things. And in Dispenza's book, who I am a huge Dispenza fan, I literally have been listening all COVID year to keep my own sanity and my own mental health. Like his Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, I was listening to this morning, but I've also been listening to You Are the Placebo. And in You Are the Placebo, one of the most impactful things for me, I've just been realizing that this illness has created for me so many unconscious levels, survival emotions, right? Where I don't have enough time and energy, I'm panicked, I have to meet everyone's needs, my own needs. And then I have a kid with congenital Lyme who's kind of gone downhill. So there's this whole trigger for me of diving back into the PTSD side of things because I have a kid who needs help. And but it was amazing because in You Are the Placebo He talks about how during a meditation they could see on the brain scans that someone was judging themselves.

Hmm.

In the meditation, they knew that she was judging herself and it was blocking the energy levels. And I've just been focused on that for weeks and weeks because I'm like, for how many years have— I know we've talked about shame and guilt and all this stuff that comes up, the lack that comes up. When you're hemorrhaging money for not years, sometimes decades, and just the emotional impact of that. I thought— I've, I've been really focused in meditation for a couple years now, but really the last year, on what emotions, what negative or limiting emotions have attached to me because of these survival situations that I've been in, because I'm trying to do what I know to do. But then how do I get live there anymore in that emotional place of survival.

Yeah, I think that judgment piece of it is huge. That was a big part for me was to not judge myself. That was part of my healing. Like when I was having bad days and I couldn't do things, to just be gentle with myself, not judge myself, not put other people's expectations on me, or, you know, like you said, I would, you know, you know, you're not like anybody else. You have to concentrate on healing and you just have to do you and like not have any judgment. And yeah, becoming aware of those emotions and judgments I think is definitely powerful in itself because then you become separated from them and you realize that that's not your identity. Like thoughts or emotions are just that and you don't have to you know, let them control you.

Yeah, that's a whole thing. That's a— it's years, years of practice, right? Like figuring those things out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I, I feel like, you know, there's ways that you can do it in a quicker amount of time too. Like for me, I did, I did do a lot of like therapy and crying and just release emotions, but there's techniques and things that you can do to kind of just be an observer of things, not necessarily relive them and to be able to heal in a quicker way when you're, you know, using that, you know, the quantum physics principles.

Yeah, that's been the encouraging part for me is the quantum physics does speed up the process a lot of ways. And I've experienced it even this year as I've dove deeper in, I've experienced some pivotal points where I'm like, oh, I don't think that would have happened if I hadn't been doing what I had been doing in meditation. If I hadn't been correcting my mindsets and diving in. So one of the things that I love when people come on the air and they have their professional background and then they have their personal experience with Lyme and then they mix the two and then voilà, you have this new little baby that exists.

Yes.

One of the things that I just found really interesting about your perspective on things is obviously the pharmaceutical science side, but then your own, like you said, entrepreneurial spirit and morphing those two. So I really would like to talk about the whole cannabis, pharmaceutical cannabis aspect of things because, yeah, as we've talked about, I do coaching sessions mostly for people who are going out to Invita and going through their treatment program. But the number of people I have talked— I say on a regular basis, that I'm one of the biggest drug proponents I know, which is hilarious. Um, but it's very common for me, even with minors, to be like, hey, have you considered getting a medical cannabis card? Have you considered this? And so you and I are going to talk through some of the effects and some of the limiting factors that prevent people from using cannabis to treat themselves. But then also the pharmaceutical aspect of really looking at it like, oh, how do I learn how to utilize this plant, plant like a pharmaceutical or like a medicine to get what I need to get what I need. And especially when you're talking about neurological and seizures and all that stuff. So explain, I did not even know there was a college for cannabis.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oaksterdam University in Oakland. So I got some certifications there.

There.

I was even valedictorian for one of the courses. And that one, it was really fun and I really learned a lot because it wasn't geared toward medical professionals. So we learned a lot about the plant in general and the history and, you know, the politics and how to grow and just like so many different aspects, how to start a dispensary business. And so it was just like this really broad education. And so I really enjoyed that. And now I'm a member of the International Society of Cannabis Pharmacists, and they actually just came out with a certification. So I'll be sitting for that as well. So now there's an official cannabis certification for pharmacists, which— Wow. I think is huge because as a pharmacist, we should know about this plant, but a lot of us don't. And a lot of people in the medical field, you know, a lot of physicians don't know enough about it. And so if they don't know about it, they just advise against it. And so it's definitely important for medical professionals to get more education. And it also helps with the stigma of it as well.

Yeah, so you had emailed me as, as we were preparing for this. You said there's 4 hurdles that you feel like you see people dealing with when it comes to medical cannabis, and stigma is one of them. And so let's, let's start with the fear of THC as being the number one, the number one factor. And I know for myself, I had no understanding back in 13. I was coming from a fairly chiropractic, holistic background. My parents didn't even have Tylenol growing up. If we had a headache, they were like, lay down on the couch and drink some water, like, and go to the chiropractor. That was, that was their problem solved. I did not have an understanding that cannabis could be used to relieve pain, that it helped, like, it got through damaged nerve cells and things that today's pharmaceuticals cannot. The fear of THC And I actually found out about it because someone picked up the phone and called me and said, hey, you've been in pain for years, you've been on and off of pain meds, have you ever considered medical cannabis? And it was like this awe, like I had no comprehension of what they were saying. I'm like, what? And so for me, it wasn't the fear, it was a lack of knowledge, but then it was the stigma, you know, after that, that I had to bridge. Is the fear coming through, in your opinion, is it coming through the fact that as a society we have been told because we're being brought up by Big Pharma, are we being told this is dangerous because it's not monetizable in the way they want? Like, is that what's been going on for 40 years?

Well, yeah, so the stigma, it's, it's really tied into politics and racism and all kinds of smear campaigns that have been done throughout the years. Cannabis used to be in pharmacies everywhere. It used to be accepted. And then we had this big anti-drug movement, but a lot of it—

yeah.

So I think for some people that stigma might be part of the fear, but fear of THC, I think it's just people don't want to get high. They're afraid of it, whether it's because of what society told them or just because they don't like being out of control of their body. They just, they're afraid of getting high. And I think the stigma does play into that because it's like the, like, you are not going to be as smart if you smoke too much dope kind of propaganda that we've been given.

One of the things my husband said to me when I first started using it and I didn't know how to smoke and there was no such thing as like gluten-free gummies at that point in the journey, like they didn't exist yet. And I was gluten-free free, so I couldn't eat the edibles and stuff. And so I was trying to smoke. And I remember one time, just, and just in excruciating, like giving birth to a kid, maybe that's an 8 or a 9 pain level. I was at 12 all the time, you know. And I remember sitting there not being able to like really follow along on this movie that we were watching with the kids. And I definitely, it was like some of my first experiences and I was just crying because I was, I was I was so afraid that— and it wasn't about the cannabis, it was about everything, right? But I told my husband, like, I don't— I feel like so much of my personality is gone. Lose more. And he looks at me and I've said this so many times on air, but he looks at me and he goes, you cry all the time. I mean, I was at this phase. I could not stop the crying. There was so much suffering and it was just off the charts suffering and had gone on for years. If this stops your pain at all, it's worth it. Like, who cares? Like, your personality— he was basically saying, like, we haven't seen your personality in a while.

Mm-hmm.

Why? And so even for me, and I feel like I'm a fairly self-confident person, and I— but that was just as big of a thing for me saying I don't want to get high because I felt like I was losing so much of who I was. Already. Where does that come from?

So you felt like the THC was going to just like make you zonk out and not have a personality? Is that—

I think I thought that. And I come from a very religious background where you don't want to alter your personality and stuff, so I felt like it was inauthentic. Like if I was having fun and it wasn't— I don't know. I don't know where it came from. I got over it, uh, you know, I evaluated it and You know, sometimes it's a lack of experience, and people who take cannabis with Lyme react differently, in my view, on people who are just taking cannabis to get high. Like, the quantities they take and the impact it has, it's all totally different. You're playing a different ball game. But it was a big— I don't even understand why it was such a big deal.

Yeah, I think it's hard to pinpoint. It's probably a combination of your upbringing and society. And yeah, I can, I can understand that too, not wanting to be like dependent on a substance. Or I, I, you know, I, I feel like I kind of— I wasn't anti-cannabis at all, but I feel like I didn't really think it was okay until I had my doctor recommend it for me. And then it was like, then something just clicked, like, because it was like, well, I'm a pharmacist, I can't get high, you know, like What would people think? That's not professional. But then like when my doctor recommended it, something just clicked. Like, this is actually medicine. Like, this is actually helping people. This is actually good for your body. As far as, you know, of course we don't have all the data, all these studies yet, but compared to alcohol, in my opinion, it's very— it's so much safer. Like, I can't tell you how many people I saw in the hospital that were dying from complications of alcohol. And like how, how much it affects our society. But like, I didn't see anybody coming in— like, maybe one time somebody wanders into the ER because they're too high from cannabis, but other than that, like, there's no life-threatening things that you see. There's no— you know, it's, it's a much healthier substance. And I was just kind of like, yeah, actually, this is medicine. I don't have to feel like this is bad if I partake in this. This is medicine, and that's what it should be, and that's what we should tell people, and especially me being in the healthcare profession, it's actually my duty to tell people and to get over this stigma because it's not, it's not fair to demonize something that has medicinal benefits.

Yeah, totally true. So, okay, point number 2 being fear factors here, uh, legality and stigma.

Yeah, I think we kind of COVID the stigma and the propaganda and, and all of that, and then the legality is just just the other one that even, even if you live in a medical state, like I'm in California, it's been legal here since '96. So it's been legal here forever and pretty well accepted, but it's still not federally legal at this point. So if you have somebody that's really careful and doesn't want to ever do anything wrong, break any rules, it's still kind of a gray area and people are afraid of that.

That things will change. Do you think things will continue to be state by state?

Well, there's something being voted on now federally to make it federally legal. The thing is, now that Epidiolex is approved, that is, you know, coming from the same plant, and if that's legal, it just makes sense for it to be federally legal at this point. It's legal in some capacity in— oh, I can't remember the exact number of states now, but it's over 30 states. States. So it just, it just makes sense. It just makes sense to do something on a federal level, especially when you have, you have people that are like still in jail over cannabis offenses when it's now considered an essential service here in California. We were, you know, throughout the pandemic dispensaries were allowed to be open because it's essential. You still have people in jail because of this plant. And so I think we just need to do something on a federal level. I think that will help with some of the stigma and people being afraid to try it.

Um, that was one of the things for me. I remember thinking like, oh, okay, I'll try this. Like, oh, if this would help stop my pain, I want to do it legally, was like the next thought out of my brain. That's a fact.

And now at least like CBD is, is, you know, if it has less than 0.3% THC, it's considered hemp, so people have access to that everywhere. But it's still, yeah, it's still enough of a gray area that people are afraid of it. So I think doing something federally would be helpful.

Well, okay, you— let's go back. You said Epidiolex. Am I saying that right?

Epidiolex.

Epidiolex. What is that? I'm not familiar with it.

It's a CBD pharmaceutical, but it's plant-derived, so it comes from a plant, and it's used mostly for seizures in children.

Okay, well, that's interesting. A step in the right direction, a direction.

Yeah.

I've seen so many documentaries about parents whose kids have epilepsy and seizures and stuff, and just the battle that they have gone through to try to continually get cannabis for their kids because it stops the seizures.

Yeah, it— there's so much, like, I know we don't have all the safety data, you know, long-term trials and things, which we don't really do with pharmaceuticals either, so But it's kind of common sense at this point when something's been around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years and we haven't seen anything detrimental and a kid having seizures is going to have a lot more profound negative effects than a plant. It comes to a point where yes, we definitely want data, but we also, we have enough data to know that it's safe for the most part and it's just, risk versus benefit.

So number 3, as far as hurdles to overcome, is picking a delivery system. So inhaling, smoking, edibles, concentrate— let's talk about that.

Yeah, so I think people get overwhelmed with, um, the options and they don't know where to start, and then they don't know their dose, and It can get confusing. So, and the answer is that there's no one answer for everybody. It's not. So you kind of have to do trial and error, or you have to, you know, work with somebody that's knowledgeable in this area and kind of figure out what your goals are and what makes the most sense. And, you know, basically I work with people to kind of pick a starting dose, and then they have to kind of do their own experimentation. Um, but I can just provide some knowledge on what's out there, 'cause if you're, you know, especially afraid of the THC, you can start with like a topical. You can do orals and just start really, really low. And there's, yeah, there's not gonna be one right delivery system for everybody, but I think taking some time to do your due diligence and find your optimal dose and try different products and see what works for you. It's important that people don't give up too soon. So it's not, you have to realize that cannabis is a plant plant, so it's not like a pharmaceutical where it's just, here, everybody gets this dose, try it. You know, it's gonna be a lot, a lot more intricate than that. You're gonna have to find your optimal dose for you.

And so that's something that you— let's talk about your coaching program, because you have a full 90-day coaching program that you have, and— but then you can also do consultations for people about their cannabis needs or regimens.

Yeah, exactly. Yep. So my most popular program is my 90-Day Surviving Lyme program, and I can do cannabis coaching under that program if somebody's interested. If I have clients that aren't interested in the whole 90-day program, or maybe it's somebody that doesn't have Lyme disease, they just want some guidance with cannabis, then we can do cannabis coaching as well.

Awesome. Because that's a, that it is a huge part. That's a big concern of people at continually saying, I don't know where to start. Like, I just got my card, I don't know where to start. And, you know, I'm kind of like, okay, well, gummies are gonna impact you. For me, smoking never did anything. I would have to smoke endlessly to actually make a dent in anything. And I also wasn't a smoker, so it was this very awkward situation over and over again. Yeah, didn't actually help. And as soon as I started taking which again, edibles didn't exist. I was literally like taking butter just because it was something I could easily consume and go to sleep with at night. But it, I could feel that like wherever I was in the most pain, which was usually like shoulders or spine or something, it would almost absorb it. I could like feel it absorbing it and like it would be really, really helpful. And, but that was something I'd never experienced with, and I had been on years of pain meds and the rollercoaster coaster that I still to this day hate if I ever have to go on pain meds. This roller coaster of how you're feeling, and sometimes it's better, and then you come down. Like, to me, it was just this 4-hour cycle all the time, and cannabis changed that.

Yeah, yeah. It's like it gives you a different perspective on the pain, is how I've heard people describe it to me. It's like the pain's kind of still there, but you're further removed from it, and it's like, oh, look at that pain over there, but it's not you, it's not like your identity. It kind of gives you space from it even though it might not take it away completely and you're still aware of it. And then when you talk about pain meds, I just think it's important to bring up too that cannabis can be used with opioids. It's okay and it might actually have beneficial effects in that you can get a lower dose of your opioid and still have pain management. And we know that there's a real opioid epidemic opiate crisis in this country and that opioids have a lot of detrimental effects. And so if you're able to take less of those or even get off of them completely with other options that are, you know, less dangerous, then that's always something to consider.

And you can help people actually figure out dosing, like, okay, for your symptoms, your set of symptoms and where you're at, let's start with this.

Yes, but it's always trial and error, but I can guide them in how to do that. And I find that a lot of people like to do oral liquids. That's kind of a good place to start because it's so titratable and you can start with just one drop if you're sensitive. And then that gives you some room to play and find your optimal dose. And then when you have an idea of what your dose is, then you can try other things, kind of have your ballpark dose in mind.

Yeah, you know what, I think you hit it. You said it really well. You're like, it's, it's a, it's a practice. It's a trial and error. And like with any practice, anything you're implementing, or a protocol, or a therapy, or something, it's— you can't implement it one time. Yeah, you gotta walk it out. You gotta figure it out. You gotta see if it can be part of your routine, or you're, you know, managing your stuff.

Exactly. And then it gets really tricky with cannabis because there's this biphasic effect that happens where sometimes you hit your optimal dose and if you keep going up, then you actually get less of an effect from it. So if you get to a point where you're like, I thought this was helping, now it's not, sometimes if you back down on the dose a little bit, then you'll find your sweet spot and that'll be your optimal dose. And then some people find a lot of benefit with microdosing and they can just take a really small amount And then other people might need huge amounts of CBD or whatever for, you know, depending on what they're treating. So the range could be everywhere. It really depends on, you know, that person's goals and their body and how it responds.

One of the things that I talk to people pretty continually about when I'm like, hey, have you considered cannabis or is this part of your, you know, part of your thought process? How do you feel like dependency versus addiction? Something that comes up pretty consistently. And especially, I, I just have an overwhelming— right now this fall, I've just had an overwhelming amount of coaching clients who are parents who have adult kids who below the age of 30 who they are caring for and having to make decisions for and having to advocate for and all that. And so the question comes up, advocacy, uh, dependency versus addiction. And over and over again, I've heard so many parents and people say, I don't wanna get addicted to anything. And I try to just say, hey, do you know the difference, 'cause I did not, between addiction and dependency? Do you know that like your body's going through something massive right now and you may need to be dependent on something to help you get through this, but that does not mean you're going to be addicted.

Right, and so addiction, so the opposite of addiction or the antidote of addiction is connection. So it's not sobriety from the substance. It's connection. And so we become addicted to things when we have a lack of connection. And they've shown this like with studies with rats that are given cocaine and they'll just take all the cocaine and kill themselves if they're in a normal environment. But if they make like a rat heaven where they have mates and games to play, then they don't, they don't overdo it with the cocaine.

Really?

Yeah. So it's really, it's not about the substance unless if you had a substance that was causing a lot of deaths, you know, of course I would be more worried about it. But as far as I'm concerned, like you can be addicted to anything. You can be addicted to video games or sex or your emotions or negative thought patterns or social media, your phone, whatever it is, you can be addicted to anything. And so I don't think that cannabis has a higher addiction potential. I've seen numbers where they rank it about the same as anxiety meds and coffee, which I have to say, I see people— if you don't have coffee, you get a headache, you get grouchy. If you— like, I've seen people that have taken years and years to get off anxiety meds. I haven't seen the same with cannabis. I haven't seen people having issues if they stop it or have that physical withdrawal. It's— I'm not saying it's not possible, and there could be people that have addiction issues, but I think it's a pretty low-risk substance and I think we're just not addressing, you know, actual root of what's causing the addiction because it's not— it really doesn't matter about which substance you're using. It matters, you know, why are you having an addiction? What is— what are you lacking in your life?

Wow. That's interesting. Huh. I like that connection is the antidote to addiction.

Yeah.

Well, and, you know, I remember I remember hearing a study that was saying like if you have already have addiction issues in your past, you have a higher propensity to struggling with that if you're going on another substance. But that it, it was based on that individual person, not based on the substances they were taking as far as like could you become addicted going on meds or whatever for treatment.

And I think, you know, there are people that are maybe more prone to addiction, and maybe it is because there's a lack of connection or something else going on. And so you might want to be more careful in those people with them abusing a substance like this. But CBD itself actually makes you— it doesn't trigger any of the reward centers, so it doesn't give you that pleasure, that reward. So it's actually kind of like an anti-addiction for the CBD part. So I would say if you're prone to addiction and you're like, especially if you're using like very high THC, then maybe it's more of an issue and you want to be more careful. But in general, it's not a highly addictive substance and it's not a dangerous substance. It doesn't kill you. So I think the main, the main goal is addressing underlying reasons why you might have addictions.

You know, it's, it's true what you said. Like, there's a ton of people who have alcohol issues and—

oh yeah, and that's way high. Alcohol and tobacco are way higher for addiction potential than cannabis. Yet those are accepted.

They are. Yeah, that was gonna be my next— it's like socially acceptable to drink, right?

And I mean, I have to say, like, I've— I'm not anti-alcohol, but, you know, I think we know, like, for most Lyme people, it's not a good idea. If you think about alcohol, like, it's doing negative things to your gut microbiome. It's a toxin itself. Your liver has to filter it out. Like, it just doesn't really add anything. Maybe there's some antioxidants in it, maybe some evidence for like some, you know, healthy heart effects, but for the most part, it's a toxin and we're filtering it out and it's not actually doing you any good. Whereas cannabis is, and it can kill you. If you drink too much alcohol, it can kill you. Whereas with cannabis, we don't have receptors on the brainstem, so it can't stop your breathing, it can't kill you. And it just doesn't have a lot, in fact, it actually is probably good for your microbiome and the endocannabinoids in general, helps with homeostasis, so it's keeping everything in balance. It's modulating your immune system. It's antimicrobial. There's all these things that are beneficial, yet it's somehow demonized when alcohol is perfectly okay, you know, culturally, and it doesn't really have those benefits that cannabis has.

Wow. Yeah, we're just used to what we're used to, right? Like, yeah, we have these little boxes that are acceptable or not acceptable. And so let's talk about— and this was something you had written— a really important— in your viewpoint, something that's really important is how plant-based medicine opens up— opens you up to explore mind-body-spirit connection.

Yeah. So I think, you know, people are afraid of the THC, or they, they see the THC as this negative thing and the CBD is the healthy part. But I think there's a lot of benefit in an altered mind state, especially when you're sick, and just that plant medicine like cannabis and, you know, psychedelic plants and things too, they can just open you up to see things in a different way, and they can potentially open up that connection with spirit or source or however you wanna see it. And I think that can be a powerful tool. And for me, I found it was easier to like explore my emotions and let go of things when I medicated with some THC. It allowed emotions to come up, allowed me to process things. And it was, for me, it was part of the process. So I don't think it's fair to say that any psychoactive effects are bad because I think it's a really powerful part of healing.

I always wonder if like, that's just a, I mean, we kind of touched on it earlier, but like, It's— I think that people are scared on some levels of that mind-body connection.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not easy. So like, you could— it's easier to take a pharmaceutical and not deal with your life. Like, it took me 4 years of like digging into some emotions and crying my eyes out and feeling things I didn't wanna feel and realizing like what emotions I had just like shoved inside and like what situations I hadn't dealt with. And it was a lot, a lot of stuff comes up and not everybody wants to face that. Not everybody has the courage to look at that. I mean, you kind of have to see your shadow self and see the dark side of yourself. And yeah, it's not the easiest thing to do. And, but if you're able to connect with that higher self it's just, it's so powerful for healing. And I think, um, some of these substances just open us up to really kind of feel that connection with the universe or spirit or God or whatever it means to you.

Yeah, that's true. It is easier to take a pharmaceutical and not deal with life, especially when life sucks, which it does with Lyme.

Yeah, it does. And yes, sometimes it's a way of just like numbing. And sometimes, I mean, I'm— you— I can't judge people for doing that. Sometimes it's a lot and you just like need a break from it. But I don't think— I think people think of cannabis as, as using it to numb. And sometimes you can if you're like, if you're just smoking really high THC and just like using it to escape. It could be used that way, but it also can be used intentionally to really get into that inner self and learn how to heal yourself and love yourself and connect with nature and the universe and everything. It's all about the intention that you put behind it.

Oh, I like that. It's about your intention.

Yeah, and that's— I mean, that's a big part of cannabis medicine too, the intention. Like, the set and setting is everything. So people that are afraid of the THC and having a bad experience and having paranoia, it's all about the intention that you have going in and this having a safe setting. And, you know, there's things that you can do to help have a good experience.

You know, I think the mind-body connection goes so— mind-body-spirit connection goes so deep on so many levels. But I think for me, cannabis allowed me, when I was downward spiraling for the umpteenth time because hell was breaking loose in my life, and I'm trying to raise 5 kids while feeling horrible and all that stuff. It allowed me to kind of just tilt my head a little bit higher and not view all of my life circumstances in this downward spiral.

Yep, I agree completely. It gives you space to kind of see, and it gave me that space to be gentle with myself. Like, I used a lot of strains that were energizing because I was completely fatigued. So it helps me with energy and it helps with all my gut issues as well.

So what are strains that are like, if you're buying a concentrate, can you buy a concentrate with certain strains or is that just like flour?

It, it depends. There, it's so different from state to state.

Yeah.

So it's hard for me to, to know how, what it's like everywhere, but there are, so the terpenes are what gives it kind of the smell and have certain effects as well. And so there are some people that isolate certain terpenes or make different mixtures, but I usually use like the flower. For me, like terpenes like limonene are more like citrusy, they're more upbeat, they tend to be more energizing. So like orange and citrusy kind of terpenes were what was helpful for me. So a lot of my— when I picked medicine for myself was based on smell, back when we were allowed to smell and to dispensaries. Now they— now that— yeah, now they took that away. They had a lot of changes when it went recreational. But yeah, so there's different terpenes. So the cannabis plant, you know, we know about CBD, we know about THC, but there's over 100 different cannabinoids, and there's terpenes that give it smells. And so there's all these things that are going into it, and it's all working together. So it's hard to pinpoint just like one thing. That's the other thing about man versus nature that I find interesting is we tend to find one ingredient in a plant that works, and so we're like, well, this, this one ingredient works, so more of it must be better. And we extract that one thing and increase the dose, but that's not how it works. Like, I feel like it's kind of egotistical for man to do that. I feel like nature is smarter than man, and the way that the plant comes together and all the parts and how they work together synergistically can be much more powerful. And so they've they've shown you can take a much smaller dose of a whole plant product than an extract and have the same effect. You need less of it because of the way that everything works together.

Interesting. Huh.

Yeah. So it's, you know, there's a time and place for exact dosing and like looking at one ingredient and taking out other variables, and it might make sense for like a a kid who has epilepsy and needs a certain dose of CBD. But in general, the way nature works, it's nice to see like more standardized doses of cannabis as well and using it more pharmaceutically for people when it works for them. But I want to make sure that we also are always, you know, treating it like a plant and that like just the mom-and-pop kind of places that grow the medicine and are really like making sure that it has all of the right terpenes for the medicinal benefits and all that, It's a plant and it all works together beautifully and we can't just extract one ingredient and just use that and forget that it's a plant and it's nature and nature heals us.

I forget, you had mentioned it earlier, but I forget that it was in pharmacies.

Yeah.

And just how, yeah, essentially that got taken away and demonized and transformed and now it's transforming again. I had read, gosh, I don't have the book, so it's not logging in my head, but before everything got criminalized, was it in the '60s or was it '70s that cannabis got, uh, re-regulated?

I think it was the '60s, but I'm not 100%.

Before that was happening, there was a lot of practitioners writing books and doing studies on helping people with chronic illnesses, cancer, all sorts of chronic stuff, and they were using cannabis to heal the body, to heal the brain, to heal PTSD. And then when it became— when it was criminalized, all of the research stopped. And what, what manifested was the party side, the recreational sides of ketamine, the recreational sides of cannabis, but not the research beneficial side that, and for 50+ years, that's been the message.

Well, we have only been allowed to study it for its negative effects during that whole time. So that's like, that all goes into the stigma as well. And like, it's just, it's interesting that like the US has a patent on cannabinoids and how they're neuroprotective and antioxidants yet they make it federally illegal. So it just, it doesn't line up. I think a lot of it has to do, actually, I think the main reason the whole campaign started was because of paper. The guy that was behind paper didn't want hemp. Hemp had, you can make better paper and materials and things out of it. And I, so I think that was the main newspaper guy that was in charge. I can't, His name is escaping me, but he was the one who like kind of started everything in the newspapers because he didn't, he was in the paper industry and he didn't want to see hemp succeed. So that was a part of it as well.

Well, and I think even the aspect of lobbyists in our democratic system has just radically changed things. 'Cause if you have enough money, you can lobby your agenda and that's radically transformed our political system.

And yeah, it just, it doesn't always make sense, especially we know like the pharmaceutical industry has a big hold on, on how our healthcare works, unfortunately. And so when things are plant-based, they just tend to not be taken as seriously or even demonized.

So, which is so— I mean, you've talked about this, and I know this is a big part of your coaching program, is the nutritional component. Yeah, which is widely ignored or, you know, not understood by a lot of people. And yet almost everyone I know who has healed and has recovered, nutrition is this huge, massive component. I just— I don't really know. Maybe they are out there, but I don't really know people who are recovering from Lyme without a massive nutritional component.

Yeah, I don't— I don't see it either. I mean, and they might not— you might not have to be— do something like very strict or drastic, but like You have to at least be eating real food and like organic and, you know, like the food that we have in the US, a lot of it I wouldn't call food. It's processed food-like substances maybe, but yeah, I think just getting back to the basics at the very least and eating real food is huge. But yeah, nutrition is a huge part of healing from Lyme.

What— we didn't talk about this beforehand, but what is your preference as far as what do you recommend to people? Paleo, keto, plant-based, like what's your personal preference for people?

So I don't recommend anything because I'm not a dietitian or nutritionist. I let the person figure out what's best for themselves or perhaps they have a diet that a physician wants them to follow and then I help them follow it. I don't think there's one diet that works for everybody.

Agreed.

For me personally, I kind of like a paleo keto. Like, I feel like I have more energy when I have less carbs, but I just think it's such an individualized thing. I think there's, there's some general guidelines like drink enough water, do things to detox, which means not eating pesticides and eating healthy things that are going to help your body move and help you have bowel movements. And so it's just like it comes down to common sense, like eat real foods. And eat as clean as possible, avoid sugar. For most people, like, avoiding gluten and dairy are probably beneficial. And then I don't— like, vegan versus eating meat— like, I don't, I don't think there's enough data to say that there's one diet that's right for everybody. And I think it just really depends on your goal. I don't think there's even one diet that's right forever for, like, one single person throughout their life. So it's just, it's really individualized, and you have to listen to your body, and you have to kind of see what's going on at the moment. A lot of times people with Lyme might have different nutrient deficiencies. So making sure that we're addressing those, you know, just kind of looking at the individual and avoiding anything that's going to be triggering. A lot of people tend to have allergies and different foods that trigger, you know, when they're healing.

You know, we touched on it way earlier in the interview, but you had mentioned that part of your recovery and healing process was moving to a place that you felt better about. And that again has a— is a recurring theme with the people we talk to who have recovered.

Really?

Oh yeah, absolutely. I think every author talks about that to some extent, and not everybody moves, but it's been a big part of my healing journey to be in a place that I— that was beautiful. Yeah. And we live in the mountains up in Colorado, or sitting in a ton of snow at the moment, and Where in Colorado are you? We're in Woodland Park. So, okay. Right outside central, right outside of like Colorado Springs, but up in the mountains. We're at like 8,400 feet elevation. But it's just been, we've been here for 3.5 years. It's, I would have discredited the impact of environment or like, oh, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you make it work. Like your environment is important, but not that important. Like family's more important. Important. But I feel like what you talked about, even as far as connection being the antidote to addiction or loss or PTSD— like, connection is huge. And there's connection with people, but there's connection with your environment, there's connection with the nature that you're surrounded by. All those things all have that synergy, synergistic effect to create that mind-body-spirit connection.

Absolutely. And that was, that was one of my big breakthroughs. So like, as I was healing, I felt like I was becoming a new person, and there was like kind of these distinct steps where I was like, I'm a new person today, I feel different. Like, I could just— yeah, oh, my cells were different. And so there, and there was like a few like really profound instances where I like completely let go of the sick version of myself. And in one of those like profound moments was when I had this realization that nature would heal me. And like, I just had this profound moment where I realized how disconnected I had been from nature, that I hadn't really like, I don't go outside and play in the dirt and like, I hadn't really appreciated nature since I was a child, you know? And I just like had this moment of like, where I just like grieved that and I felt bad like I hadn't, really appreciated the world around me. And I just had this, like, knowing, this message that was like, you have everything that you already need inside of yourself to heal, and nature will heal you. Like, and it was just like, oh, I just need to be in nature. I just need to touch the earth, touch trees, and like be in that silence, and I'll figure out what I need to heal. Like, it's, it's really that simple. And grounding, earthing is actually, you know, the earth has these negative electrons, this endless supply of electrons, these negative ions, and we pick them up through our body and it neutralizes our free radicals. So it's really powerful for inflammation and modulating your immune system. And so it's just like, we tend to be disconnected. We wear, you know, rubber-soled shoes. We live in high-rises. We don't walk barefoot or sleep on the ground, but like, just that profound realization that like just being on the ground is healing, being in nature.

Yeah, that's so— I love what you said about you felt like you were becoming a new person.

Absolutely. And like that, so like the nature realization was one of those profound moments. And then the— I had a profound moment where it was like this was officially me leaving the sick version of myself and becoming somebody new. And it was like very distinct moment. And that's why, to me, I can never go back to the sick version. Like, I don't, I don't use the word remission for myself. I use the word cure. Like, I'm a completely new person. It's not even possible for me to be that other person anymore. And I was able to do that by becoming aware of a subconscious belief that I was holding on to that was keeping me in that pattern of being sick. And like, once I became aware of that and dropped that It was like I was born again. I was completely new.

What was your subconscious belief like? I'm sure there's lots of them, but in that moment, what was it?

In that moment, it had to do with the relationship with my mom and how I never— I never felt loved and loved and accepted for who I was in my family. It was like you had to be a certain person. You had to do these certain goals. You had to get straight A's. You had to be in healthcare. You had— you know, I grew up, dad was in the military. My mom's German. There's just like certain expectations of how you're supposed to be. And so I realized that I was— that like the little girl inside of me wanted to be sick for my mom's attention. That I was holding on to being sick so that I could be like cared for and nurtured. And it's just like the little girl in me wanting my mommy's attention.

Wow, that's so profound. Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. Isn't it amazing? Like when you identify those limiting beliefs and we touched on Dispenza, but I'm a huge fan when— and I have felt this when you identify a limiting belief, conscious or unconscious, and then you are at a place or you've developed a practice where you can release that or acknowledge it, just honor the reality of what's going on, honor what you're feeling, not dismiss it like you said, like don't dismiss it, honor, honor what you are feeling, but then let it go and let it not define you and let it not change your day or put you in a downward spiral or, you know, bring on those limiting emotions. But those— that energy— Dispenza talks about how negative energy is stored in our bodies in lots of areas. And from a physics standpoint, like, they say that you cannot create or destroy energy. Energy exists. You can't create or destroy it. The only thing you can do is transfer or transform it. And for me, you know, me and many other people, when you are living with chronic fatigue or lack of energy, like I was constantly running this filter of like, okay, every activity takes time, energy, and money. How much time, energy, and money do I have to give to my kid's birthday party? How much time, energy, and money do I have to give to this work meeting? How much time, energy, and money, right? You're doing that plus all the decisions you're making with Lyme and trying to figure out your body because it's not functioning right, those beliefs come up. And my belief, like, in— for all of COVID as we've been locked down, and we are locked down since like February because my son Nate was really sick, so I feel like we're hitting the one-year home stretch almost. I'm like, I need people, I need to see people, like, I'm losing it here. Um, but that whole process, one of the things that I identified as a limiting belief that has been huge for me in the last few months is I have realized that I have, uh, um, one of my limiting beliefs is feeling like I'm an indentured servant to this disease. I mean, this disease has cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars, off every asset we own. We sold our house to pay for my first round of treatment. We did have some assets going into this endeavor, but I just realized I carry a sense of indentured servitude and then have created a company out of this, right? So this is a company based on trauma. How do we take that and not let it be trauma but transformation, right? That's a whole thing where you, you know, even for me, I've spent hours meditating just on not— of letting go of feeling like indentured.

Yeah, but I think it's huge. You turned it around. Like, now you're giving your life to Lyme to help others. So it's like— and the same for me, it was like, I— the Lyme community can be overwhelming. They can be negative and hopeless because people are lost and confused, and the medical society as we know it, like, doesn't have the best practices processes in place for chronic Lyme. I had to take a break after I was fully healed as well. Like, I was like, I need a break from this. Lyme disease has consumed my life for so long. I just can't. I just can't anymore. I just need to live my happy life and pretend this never happened. And just— but then it was— it wasn't long and it was like creeping back in again. And I was just like, I know too much. I can't— I can't not help people. I can't give that energy back after everything I've went through. And to to people. It's so fulfilling to talk to people and to know that I actually understand how they're feeling and what they've went through. Because if you, if you've never, if you've never had it, you just, you can't get it because it's— you can't. You look okay from the outside, you might be okay one day to the next and then have a horrible day. And it's like people just don't get it. And so I was just like, I'm in that unique position where I get it because I've been through it, but I also have all this knowledge on like plants and cannabis and pharmaceuticals and everything. Like, it's like, I can't— I have too much knowledge. I have to share. I have to do this. I have no choice.

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing your gifts. I know what it takes to advocate in this community, and I know what it takes to be an entrepreneur in this community. Yeah. Just like the reality that Lyme is a weird world, so is entrepreneurialism in the Lyme world. It's very different from— oh yeah. Real estate, which is what I was in before. And I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like, this is a weird world, like weird Lyme ecosystem.

Yeah.

But yes, thank you so much for what you were doing and giving back. Tell us about your Facebook group that you have that anyone can join.

Yes, so I have a free private Facebook group. It's called Surviving Lyme: Navigate Your Disease and Reclaim Your Health. Anybody can join. It's obviously mostly for people with Lyme disease, but there are some people that have kind of some mysterious things going on. They're not sure what it is, and so there's other people in there too. And it's just a place to kind of spread some hope because some of the Lyme groups on Facebook are quite negative, and I just want people to know that I was able to fully get well, and I know other people who are able to fully get well, and I've helped others, and there is hope. And so I just try to spread some knowledge, some education, some hope, and just share things that have worked for me or like, you know, other articles I come across that are helpful, new advancements, or, you know, anything that people might find interesting. So it's just a place to kind of share that information and help support each other. People in my group do a really good job of supporting each other and not coming from that place of negativity that people can sometimes get, you know, overcome by when they're really struggling with, with this illness.

Yeah, I know. I go into the Lyme groups very— a specific number of times each month, and I go in for a couple hours and I post and I try to answer questions, and then I get out for my own mental well-being. But there's— it's, it's such a conundrum, like all of life with Lyme, because there's valuable information. And I have interacted with people who then you set up a coaching call, or they're like, oh my gosh, no one gets this, or no one has understood, or I have haven't known which direction to go, their life is on a new path and transformed. And it is so fulfilling. It is. Sometimes you have to go through so many people and you're having those conversations of like, they're, you know, in the simplistic, in the simplest form, which I remember feeling this, it's like, tell me what you did to get better. Why would you go on that news interview and not say what you did to get better? Like, tell us what you did to get better. And I'm like, it's is so freaking complicated. You cannot sum it up for anyone in a 10-minute conversation.

It is, yeah. I feel like I could literally talk to like 20 different people and tell 20 different versions of how I got better because it's not just one thing. It's not, it's about healing your entire life. Like that's how you get better. Especially if you've had this for years and you've had like, it just wreaks havoc on your system. It's gonna, you're gonna have all kinds of imbalances. And you're going to have to heal your body and you're going to have to heal your entire life in order to do that.

Hmm. I hadn't thought about it that way. I use the word wholeness a lot. Like, I've found that I'm now having lost so much, now having gone through so much. I mean, I've lost my 30s essentially. I didn't lose them because I learned stuff and I, you know, but I lost, I lost a lot. And so I call it wholeness. It's like, and I also say that, you know, through this whole experience, you come to identify what your strengths and weaknesses are, right? And a friend of mine, Jordan Peterson, is a psychologist, and he has— he's talked a lot about this term thrownness, to be thrown, thrownness. And it's based on a German philosopher. And but when it talks about when you go through very extreme situations— illness, military service, the death of someone— when you're exposed to these things that you cannot control and you wouldn't normally want them in your life or choose for them to be around, but you can't get out of them, it creates— you become from, in a sense, you become familiar and comfortable with the uncomfortable comfortability of death. You become familiar with instability, right? You become comfortable being uncomfortable because you have to, to survive and adapt. But I have said that, like, for me, I have felt like I have been rebuilding and I'm 42, so I'm in my 40s. So that's like, you know, kind of a midlife crisis type phase. But for me, it's— maybe it's a midlife crisis, but It's a midlife— I have lost the thing that I know. I know myself well. I know what works for me, what energizes me, what drains me. Like, I can read my body. What scares me the most, hands down, more than death, is not thriving in areas and just existing. Because I feel like with Lyme, you have to exist in so many ways. Whether it's like, okay, I'm going to commit for 5 years to do an enema 6 days a week, or to juice, or to do this detox bath, or to— right? Like, people do that. You're not living a normal life. Your life is consumed with fighting, and you should, you should be fighting. Like, if you need— those of you listening, if you need permission to fight for yourself, you have it. Like, it's okay if your life doesn't look like anyone else's. But as you go into that, and then hopefully you're coming out the other side, it's this— it's not just about midlife crisis, it's about recovery, it's about midlife, but it's also like, who do I want to be now? Because I, like you said, like you want a new version of yourself because you then you understand on some— even though so much has been stripped away, you understand like you're capable of stuff you never knew.

Absolutely. I have people all the time that are like, how do I get back to the old version of myself? How do I get back to the healthy version? And it's like, no, you're not going back. You can only go forward. But what— like, what you're gonna find is gonna be even better than that other version of you. But don't, don't yearn to go backwards. Like, think about everything that you can learn through this journey and apply to your life so that when you are well, which you have to believe you can get well, that's the the first step in healing, yeah, then once you are well, you'll be able to incorporate all these things. You're gonna be this amazing person that you just wouldn't have been before if you hadn't had this journey and the struggle.

Yeah, that's a hard concept. I mean, everything you're saying right there is like deep into self-discovery, and I mean, it's true. I totally agree with you. I see it, I read it, I hear it from people all the time. Like, there is— it is that as aspect of finding that new version of yourself. And it— the old you doesn't exist. Yeah, it doesn't. You can't go back. Like, for me, my kids are 10 years older. My kids don't, you know, remember me being healthy because I haven't been healthy in their life in a lot of, in a lot of aspects. Or, um, and yet, and yet that's okay because of the intentionality, where we're trying to go, who we're trying to be, trying to figure out all those lessons and the silver lining so we can, you know, a lot of people say, oh yeah, I want to put it behind me and move on. And I don't want to go back and think about those emotions. I don't want to go back and like experience that stuff again. And yet there is value in that because you do kind of come to this place where you're like, okay, who's 2.0? What, what is Christine Christine 2.0 look like? What does Sarah 2.0 look like? Yeah, you're never going to get there if you're focused on Sarah 1.0. There's how many limiting beliefs and things were we carrying that pushed us towards being sick?

Yeah, well, it's in some ways it's more comfortable to be sick than to be a new version of yourself and go into the unknown. It's more accepted to have symptoms and hide behind them. There's, there's always something to gain from being sick. And so people don't like that question. People can feel offended with that question. But like, what, what are you— how are you benefiting from being sick? There's always something to gain.

That's interesting. I actually heard Dr. Phil say that like 20-something years ago. Like, what do you gain from this? He wasn't talking about being sick. He was talking about patterns of behavior. What gain from this? And I have asked myself that question probably thousands of times after getting sick. Like, am I gaining something from this? I feel like I'm losing. Like, I don't feel like I'm really gaining. Like, everything's getting stripped away. I'm perpetually broke. Like, my social life sucks. I don't think I'm gaining something, but it's those un— or subconscious aspects.

Yeah, on a subconscious level, there's something. There's something that you're gaining.

All right, we've gone way over our time limit because you're a wealth of information. Okay, people can find you at limesupport.com.

Yes, limesupport.com, or my Facebook group, or, you know, I'm on all— I'm on social media too, but limesupport.com is a good place to start.

Okay, awesome. If you guys are interested in a cannabis consult, give her a call. Her 90-day coaching program looks fantastic. Thank you again for being here and bringing your expertise to this community.

Yes, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

As we end, where are you getting your most current source of inspiration?

Most current source of inspiration? I think it's from within. I mean, really, from silence, from sitting in silence and seeing what comes to me. I think the answer is always within.

Awesome, well said.

All right, well, really nice chatting with you.

Yeah, you too. Disease is contrary to life. Therefore, wherever disease exists, life must also fight to exist.

Good job fighting, Lyme fighters.

Keep it up.

We'll see you next time. LymeVoice contains general information about medical conditions and treatments. The information is not advice and should not be treated as such. Okay, Lincoln? Okay. The medical information on LymeVoice is provided as is without any representations warranties, expressed or implied.

Okay?

Okay. LionVoice makes no representations or warranties in relation to the medical information on this podcast. You must not rely on the information on this podcast as an alternative to medical advice from your doctor or other professional healthcare provider. If you have any specific questions about your medical matter, you should consult your doctor or other professional healthcare provider. And for you, you consult your parents.

Okay?

Okay. If you think you may be suffering from any medical condition, you should seek immediate medical attention. You should never delay seeking medical advice, disregard medical advice, or discontinue medical treatment because of information on this podcast. Got it, Lincoln? Got it.