#65 Embracing citizen development, unlock innovation, and drive your digital transformation agenda

Hallo und willkommen zu another episode of the Process and Automation Podcast with the Automation Guys. Yeah, usually you hear just me and Arno talking about all things process and automation, but today we have a very special episode, our first roundtable, our first panel discussion here on the podcast. So the topic of today will be around embracing citizen development. Together with the expert panel, we will unpack citizen development, why it is important now, what are the key considerations for getting implementation right, and why business leaders like you should be seriously considering how it can support the delivery of business strategy and contribute to business success. So that's why I'm very excited to welcome our panelists for today's discussion. First, we have Gerald Pullen, Technology Delivery Director at Go Beyond Partners. Then we have Lee Edwards with us, co-founder and director from Smart Automation. Chris Pearce, Vice President Customer Success at Innate. And we have also, yeah, Arno, Arno, the other guy from the Automation Guys and Managing Director at Velocity IT. So yeah, welcome everyone. Really awesome to you all here. Great that you all share the same passion for process and automation as we do. So yeah, embracing citizen development is the topic. Let's dive straight in. Arno, maybe you would like to kick it off with maybe demystifying the word citizen developer, or what is a citizen developer?

Thank you, Sascha, and once again, good day to all our podcast listeners and welcome to our show. It's a very interesting topic, and you know, it describes an employee that's not part of the technology function with inside a business, or somebody that's not typically a technologist like a software engineer or a software developer. This person is a very savvy technology consumer, but again, it's not somebody that we would consider to be a technical developer. So For example, somebody that, you know, kind of writes code, techie code, C++, C#, HTML, and that sort of thing. This person typically works with inside a business operation unit. So for example, somebody in finance, sales, and marketing, the legal department, or, you know, even something like HR. And again, this person is very competent with something like Excel. You know, they'll be able to take Excel and do wonderful things with it to plug all sorts of gaps in pre-existing software that creates these shadow IT solutions that a lot of companies rely on, right? So you just have to go to their file share and you can kind of see all these wonderful Excel spreadsheets there that they use. So again, they— it's a person that you want to sort of give a technology platform to, and you want them to be able to look at better ways of working. So, you know, they'll use these technologies to create solutions that save themselves some time. So typically, you know, you give them a marketing automation platform and they'll go in and they'll start building workflows. So again, if I sort of just with the Excel analogy, if I just sort of put that aside and bring in a low and no-code platform, it actually gives these employees an opportunity to build their own software solutions. And again, it's without writing code. So we, we give them this thing called a no-code platform and then they can build, you know, things like mobile apps, you know, web applications, even things like software bots that automates repetitive tasks very quickly, things like chatbot applications. So again, the flexibility that these low and no-code platforms provide can be sort of compared to the flexibility of, say, for instance, something like Excel, but there's no obvious constraints and limitations. And it's essentially these low-code platforms is like it provides you with a drag-and-drop application development capability without having to write all of the sophisticated code. It does that in the background for you. There's this analogy again that floats around to say it's like Lego, you know, a good citizen developer looks at a business problem and solves it by configuring a solution that combines these sort of easy-to-use blocks that's within Site Alow and a no-code platform. And again, you know, because these processes that these people touch are usually operational and customer-facing processes, they're very specific to the way these solutions are very specific to the way these individuals work and think. And again, you know, they are not created by the traditional IT software developers, perhaps in the business or intervention from IT. And this actually provides us with a very, very interesting benefit because it sort of just broadens the number of resources available with inside a business to tackle problems people encounter in their day-to-day sort of business as usual work. And this is what we call this quote-unquote citizen approach to development increases what we see the pace of change with inside an organization and the level of innovation. And this citizen development paradigm really empowers those non-technical people to automate mundane routine tasks in their day-to-day jobs. And that frees them up to spend more time doing really value-added work. And there is an interesting stat that I saw that's published by 451 Research, and it tells us that At the minute, 60% of all custom applications are built outside of the technology function, you know, and from a business perspective. And of this, 30% is built by employees that, you know, hasn't got any software development or technical skills. For me, this is a very incredible insight into the way, you know, our future apps will be developed and also the big role the citizen developer will play in the future, now and in the future.

So you mentioned LEGO there earlier. So does it mean— is it nearly as simple to do that? Maybe Gerald or Ali or Chris, you'd like to comment on that one?

Gerald, I'm happy to go first.

You go for it, then.

Yeah. So it's, it's simpler than it used to be, um, in terms of building processes and building these Lego blocks. And there is still a little bit of coding involved, but it's, it's minimal. Um, I think it's, it's in the technology is developing now to, to allow people to do it themselves and for themselves rather than relying on IT. But yeah, it's, it's definitely getting there. The analogy I use with people, it's say 10 years ago, you had to go to a web developer to build your website. Now you can do it through any number of, you know, GoDaddy and all of those guys, and it's very much a drag and drop. There is some work that needs to be done in the background, and it isn't, it isn't as simple as anybody can do in a very short space of time. You have to have a little bit of training, you have to understand the structure of how you build the processes So, but the good thing is with citizen development, you're training the people that used to do it manually to be able to do it, to automate it. So they already understand the process. What you need to do is just get them to understand the structure and the governance needs to go in there to make sure the process is robust for them. Because the last thing they want to do is build something that then keeps falling over. Yeah.

And then suddenly if everyone is building it, you end up with lots of sort of shadow IT, isn't it?

Yes.

Good old green IT.

Makes IT get very nervous. And then you're in a situation where, yeah, you don't actually— nobody actually benefits from it.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And if you look at some of the customers I've got at eN8, we've got some customers with up to 10%, would you believe, of the operational workforce now with the ability to be part of the configuration setup. So they're actually able to, you know, be involved in the configuration and change, which makes them citizen developers, as dictated by the overall operation, which is really powerful. So these people, as you say, Sascha and Arno, they've got the right mindset. They understand the tooling, but also they're within the guide rails of being able to use a toolset that allows that kind of rollout. So it's very powerful. And these people are able to get on and apply their skills accordingly.

Fantastic. So, yeah, Arno touched a little bit on that earlier, so on some of the benefits and why citizen development might be important. So, Gerald, so what do you think why citizen development is important?

Well, I think for context, Sascha, I think if we wind back the clock, not all that far. Everything before required the IT function to develop these new applications or automations. The pace of change was slow, lots of detailed procedures and red tape to follow. And actually, to make any of these advancements a reality, as Arno touched on, deep coding skills were needed, and they've never been in as plentiful supply as as the demand dictates. And if you fast forward to where we are now in 2022, coming out, or well and truly, I guess, certainly in the UK, from the other side of the pandemic, there's a real need for rapidly deployable solutions. And customers' expectations from a digital perspective have never been higher and more subject to change. So I think this is really where citizen development comes into its own in terms of using that low and no-code technology to create kind of those, those small, swift changes. And also, I think importantly, you know, those changes that might not have passed the return on investment test in the past. There's lots of potential out there from addressing those sort of changes that the citizen developers who know their business, they're close to their processes and the customer journeys they're supporting, they can see these opportunities. And in the past might have been frustrated because they either had to get it on IT's backlog and priority list and couldn't, or didn't have the ability to fix those problems themselves. Whereas now with these kind of simpler low-code, no-code, drag-and-drop software solutions, there's no need for people to sit back and wait or wait for IT to get to their improvement initiative. They can do it themselves, and thus you've kind of resolved a major source of employee frustration where they can see something so obviously that needs fixing, but, you know, now they've got the ability to do it themselves. And I guess if you look now as well, and, and the very talent-constrained market that we're in at the moment, this again is a, I think, a huge area whereby if organizations can embrace this and equip and empower their employees to become system developers, I think it's a great way for them to retain the talent they already have, but also attract new talent when they could see the sorts of things they're gonna be able to get involved in. And when you look at kind of, I think McKinsey quote from fairly recently where 60% of all occupations have at least 30% technically automated activity within it, there's a big prize to go after. So I think citizen development really unlocks that.

Yeah, and I think with everything what's going on was the pace, business have to change. I think there's not, it's not even really a, another choice, isn't it? So to, to get, get these initiatives going. And yeah, maybe Chris, Lee, you like to, Arno, you like to comment on, on a few of, on this point?

Couldn't agree more from, especially from the talent perspective. I can cite an example of recently I brought together a, a whole group of my customers at ENEAT and And they came from across all different industry verticals, from media to business process outsourcing to finance to global banks. The single most important issue they had today was talent, both talent acquisition and talent retention. And citizen development is really helping with that and getting, getting the, you know, the talent that exists, the power and the capabilities to be able to affect change and And it's also been motivational to the talent that is already within organizations. So it's a really big step forward, building among the points that Gerald is making there. Yes, sure, completely agree.

Cool.

Yeah, and I echo that as well from our customers, big and small, is the ability to retain staff and also to find resources. So what we've What we've been able to, to do with our customers is help them build an internal capability. So lots of organizations, um, have— well, everybody has resources, everybody has people. Do we use them to the best of, of their capabilities and their potential? A lot of times not, which is why we get high, high turnover. So what we've done, um, especially a couple of our bigger customers, is we put a training and mentoring program together that enables their people to be trained and they, they had a lot of people that come out of university but needed to get a job, and they got computer science degrees, or they got that inclination for IT but didn't really— weren't able to either get into an IT role or didn't really want to go into pure IT. And this is a good place for people to be because it, it allows them to have a potential career path. They go from manually processing activities on a day-to-day basis, which are, you know, for them is— well, for anybody is really mind-numbing. And they learned a new skill and they were able to positively impact their organization to actually move the business forward. And because they're internal resources, it meant that there was greater retention and greater staff satisfaction, as opposed to— as well as some of the other benefits you get from automation is, is customer experience, and therefore the customers staying with you for a long period. So yeah, it's definitely a, a good thing for organizations to consider, not only because of the benefits of delivering the automation, but also staff retention and customer retention as well.

Yeah, and again, I think it's, it's sort of broadly speaking the hard benefits of bringing a citizen developer program into your business where you know, you could use the good ideas that people have and you can build on top of that. And of course, that's going to bring change and optimization and cost savings. But then there's also the soft, the soft benefits of, you know, employee satisfaction, people actually empowered to solve problems themselves. And of course, with all of this, we have to remember, and Sascha and myself, we've been talking about citizen development for a while on this show. And, you know, we, we always talk about the fact that good governance should be in place, good governance frameworks, just to make sure that you provide people the freedom to express themselves, the freedom to use these, these modern tools to create these applications that's very beneficial for themselves, but without having sort of a technical debt in the future where it becomes problematic and a risk to the business. So it's, it's kind of like just holistically looking and there's a, there's a there's great minds today on the show, you know, people that deal with this and help their customers day in, day out. And we'll make a list on the show notes anyway if our listeners want to get in touch with them. But I guess the key is also just to when you start with the first step in this journey, you want to create a citizen development program in your business. It is always good to have that holistic view as well to say, well, you know, what are the pitfalls? You know, how do we navigate this and how do How do we do it right so we actually do the right thing for people so they can innovate, you know, without causing frustration? Because I don't know, perhaps we've done it the wrong way. The intent was good, but the execution wasn't that great, you know. So there are those things to consider as well. But for me, how I see the demand for rapid application development is big. It's, you know, we see it in our day-to-day with our customers. As soon as they see the speed of actually taking an idea and actually turning it into an app. And, you know, so the demand is there and it's something that just needs to be controlled when you start opening it up to the citizen development community as well. And I think when you do it right, you could really, really see transformational effects with inside your business where people, you know, will actually use these platforms to solve problems that you didn't know even exist, right? And hopefully you'll start seeing some of the spreadsheets disappear, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And it seems like with these technologies nowadays, it comes out of sort of the typical enterprise domain and now also into like the smaller businesses, which is great. So they can also then get all the benefits from automation and do it themselves. Something which wasn't possible before, first of all, was costs and obviously was the skill set. Yeah. So this is really good to see. And that brings me to my next question. Next question: How does citizen development add value to businesses? Maybe Chris, you like to share some of your insights there?

Yeah, sure. Well, it's a big thing for customers in terms of the ability to empower people to make change, and also the benefits come from that change sitting where the business knowledge is. So by having the business knowledge there, you can actually effect that change and have that actionable change in place quickly. If you think of in an old style, more IT setup, the, the number of proxies that sit within a chain from the person who's actually requesting a change right through to the implementer, that's a lot of time and effort and involvement from many departments, many people, lots of documentation. But to bring that in and give that change capability to people who have the knowledge that really dials up the ability for that to be actionable incredibly quickly, which allows, of course, your customers to keep pace with their customers. Their customer requirements are changing. They want to change in a timely manner as a result, and it allows them to effect that change quickly. I think there's a lot of other softer benefits as well to the business. So beyond the actual, you know, the ability to change in line with the business requirements, I think it's motivational to the people within the teams who have been empowered to be able to make that kind of change. It removes the frustration, which is the converse of that, in that if your business is moving forward and your customers' businesses are moving forward, but you've got, you know, lag or inertia, which is within your business, which means you can't change as quickly as you want to, that will introduce frustration within the teams. And again, as we've been saying earlier, it could give you a talent problem going forwards, but also I think what's really important is that we touched on it slightly, that the benefits come through the way in which you implement that change. Some of the other benefits to the business is that the implementation is within guide rails. You can introduce, for example, global standards and blueprints which are then subject to local variation. But all within, you know, a given set of compliances. And that really helps the business in overall terms with things like, you know, it's a solution that is secure and therefore, you know, will have been approved by the organization as a whole. You won't have support issues around that change management in the way that perhaps we would have had, you know, 20 30 years ago with what we used to call end user computing and gray IT. It definitely isn't that world. You know, this is well-governed, well-structured, compliant software that allows that empowerment of the individuals to make change where change is required. And I think the other, the other thing I see from our customers is that they They look at it as a consistency, not standardisation, which is an important distinction to make around the business benefits that exist through this approach.

Oh, cool. So is there anything you'd like to add, Arno? Chris? Not Chris.

That was Chris.

Yeah, Gerard.

Yeah, I'd just like to add, I'll just be brief. I think it's it's all about innovation and kind of solving quote unquote my problems, right? It's the sort of thing that I know what those problems are. I know those processes. If I have the right tools around me, I can actually on, in small kind of incremental scales sort of solve those problems. And, you know, that makes me more effective. Time as an employee or as a person to actually deal with the things that I would like to do rather than actually crunching numbers on a spreadsheet from, you know, if I have to kind of create a report and copying it into different spreadsheets. So for me, it's all kind of, if it's centered around the person and my problems, I think again that sort of just allows that innovation for myself to be able to address these issues.

Yeah, cool. So I think the question we always get asked here on the podcast is around the next topic. So from the white paper, I have taken some points and it's all about getting it right. Yeah. So, and how to get started because it can go completely the wrong direction if you if you start, yeah, wrong. So let's on a high level go through the points you put together here, and we can go into discussion, Lee. So unlocking the potential of citizen development, so you mentioned here, so it's important to link with company strategy, then look at consider business context, and then adopt the right technology. Number 4 will be like developing a center of excellence, also a topic we discuss here a lot. Define clear responsibilities and always think end-to-end. And yeah, so these are really great points to get into. Yeah, Lee, so what do you think is the key here?

Well, I think those points there are your kind of, I'd say, your high-level things. But I think to follow on from what Chris said is you need some guardrails around how the technology is used and which technology you use. And all of that comes from what is your company strategy? Where do you want to go as an organization? Where do you see yourself being? Do you want to be a leader in the market? Do you want to grow exponentially? All of those kind of things you need to consider because then that will give you a view of, well, how— what do we need to do? What, what things do we need to change? How do we need to innovate? And how we're gonna, how we're gonna do with that with the people that we, that we have. A lot of my customers talk about, I want to do more, I don't want to lose people, I want to do more with the people that I've got. And looking at the areas of inefficiency within the organization or pain points. And looking— so that's kind of where you've got your business context. What is it that is causing us a problem that means that we can't go to the next level and we can't grow the business, or we, we can't become the leader, or we can't consolidate our position? And so using— linking those two together, you then start thinking about what is the right use of the technology. Are we, as an organization, are we highly regulated? So do we need more of an enterprise solution? Do we need, or are we more flexible, and can we have remote desktop capabilities? Or is it a combination of both? So then once you've chosen the right technology for you, and it could be a combination of more than one, is then start thinking about the guide rails that Chris mentioned, and what is our operating model? How do we want to control and manage this capability? Because what the worst thing you want in the world, I think somebody mentioned earlier, is you get gray IT and then you get your security and info security guys and you get your cyber guys, right? And having great concerns that there's no control in place. So having a center of excellence and center of excellence don't need to be a huge, great big organization. And don't need to have lots of rules and regulations in there. It's about creating a framework that people can follow to make sure that you leverage the technologies and the skills and the innovation that people bring to the table in a way that allows you to be agile and nimble and deliver things quickly, but still having some structures around it. So identifying, are these the right processes to be automated? Um, or, or is there something within the existing functionality of the applications that they're working on that we just don't know about or we haven't turned on? Um, or that a system is going to be, um, sunsetted in 6 months, can be replaced by some super fantastic ERP system, no need for the automation. It's, it's making sure you choose the right processes to automate, um, when taking into consideration all the other things that are happening within the organization. And clear responsibilities, absolutely. You have to have a RACI in place. Again, it doesn't have to be anything that's overpowering and demanding on people and restrictive, but at the same time, you need to understand if, you know, we're building processes, who runs them, who maintains them, what's the structure for any change management from the applications that they're running against. All of those kind of things need to be considered and people need to understand what their roles and responsibilities are. And then the last bit is, I see this so many times where rather than thinking about the end-to-end process, people will just look at, oh, this is a little bit of automation I can do here. And it might be 10% of the process, but actually, look at— if you look at a, maybe a customer journey, um, or, or an end-to-end process within a department, then look at what can be automated. Then look at what you can optimize, um, and lean before, and standardize before you start thinking about automation. There's nothing worse than automate— either automating part of a process or a process that's either clearly or not clearly defined or is broken.

That would be the worst indeed. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes it's very difficult to— it's not difficult, but I guess when some people are getting excited about automation, they want to get started straight away. And these 6 points look really, really useful.

Yeah, I see that. Customers, as soon as you start, like, when can we start building? When can we start? When can you see? No, no, guys, right? You gotta have a— you gotta have an operating model that sits around it, or a framework, to make sure you choose the right things and that you automate them in the right pla— in the right way, sustainable and maintainable.

Cool, thank you very much. Any other points maybe from you, Arno, Gerald, Chris?

I think I'd just throw in, Sascha, I'd just endorse everything Lee said. And both Lee and I have got extensive experience, I guess, of implementing the models that do drive success in this space and the establishment of centers of excellence. And I can't, I guess, stress enough that the ingredients to this are very much— as much as what you automate, it's absolutely the how and having that sustainability in place to make sure— I think Chris used the phrase blueprint earlier— just making sure that you're moving forward as an organization in this area in a cohesive way, so you don't end up with kind of a Wild West situation where one of your departments is adopting a totally different approach or technology to another. This, you know, the key to this is, is very much, I think, community is, is really important so that people are talking to each other, sharing what their ideas are, sharing best practices. And then you have that kind of COE is the— not, not the one— a bad COE is one where it's kind of almost introducing the draconian things that people didn't like about old IT. A great COE is just to be an absolutely facilitate, um, and make sure that the best practice does spread around and, and the guardrails are there, but done in an absolutely the right way to enable value rather than stifle it.

Yeah, it's a fine, fine balance there.

And I'd agree completely what the guys are saying as well. And also what, just to add, what I see from our customers as well is picking up on Gerald's point about centers of excellence. We also see centers of excellence, centers of excellence, I should say, that then spawn out into smaller pods for local centers. You know, you take a global organization and they will have— again, back to my point about the blueprints— that will come from a, you know, a central global standard that is then passed out to the citizen development teams, which are pods in certain geographies around the world who are aligned to the local business and the local business needs and even cultural differences require a different approach to how they implement business. And therefore, that's, that's a really great example of seeing citizen development, you know, pass out across an organization.

Very cool. Yeah, super important. So we talked about how we do it right. And how does the future look like of citizen development? Gerald?

Yes, I think everything we've all spoken about today just points at the fact that citizen development supported by different flavors of technology solutions, and we've mentioned low and no-code, but they're not the only elements to this. But everything's pointing towards it being here to stay and becoming increasingly widespread. Organizations using this as increasingly a major lever to drive their digital transformations, uh, and the power and potential of kind of well-run and well-coordinated system development efforts. And we've really majored on the kind of the coordination piece, I think, here being, being absolutely pivotal. But the power is really quite incredible, not just in the obvious business benefits we've spoken about. But, you know, if you imagine a world where, you know, the following things are commonplace, it's really kind of no limit to what organizations can achieve. So, you know, I think if your business users are empowered and have the capability and tools to fix the problems that are frustrating them, um, organizations aren't held back by a shortage of very highly skilled and expensive developers. Organizations have a kind of a lever to really accelerate their digital transformation with, with the people that already work for them by investing in, in them and their development. And on that same point, you can retain talent by giving them new opportunities to learn and grow and make a difference. Those all sound like kind of very positive things that could all be enabled by doing citizen development in the right way. And I guess for me, the bit that is really important with citizen development is, yes, it's clearly about technology and using that to kind of drive improved experience for customers and transform, transform journeys for customers. But I don't think it can be forgotten that the real piece here, I think, is cultural. As much as anything else. You know, Lee was speaking about kind of the link back to business strategy, and I think if you don't set the right conditions for success and you don't have the cultural elements to doing citizen development right, then I don't think it can be successful. But if you get that cultural piece right, and then the guardrails we've spoken about, and those ingredients of success we've just run through there, that everyone will be able to read in a bit more depth in the white paper, those kind of 6 key ingredients to unlock the full potential of system development. The future of this is really, as I see it, exponential growth and not just in kind of big major enterprise way, more, there's no reason why local businesses couldn't use this, you know, and small businesses couldn't use this where previously there might have been kind of— it might have been a barrier to entry really because of the expense of getting underway. I really see this as something where, you know, anyone with the, you know, the right will and the right kind of knowledge to get started can really make a difference using system development.

I can imagine then it might be even more difficult these days with what's going on in the market. There are vendors coming up left and right and center. Everyone is doing low-code, no-code, even no-code AI and RPA, those kind of things. So you have a huge toolset to choose from. So that, that should— yeah, I think this is a big challenge too, right? Any thoughts on that maybe from the group?

I think Gerald hits on a really good point about smaller and medium-sized enterprises as well, starting to look at this as organizations wake up to the benefits. You look at the speed of adoption of change, the speed to market, the lower total cost of ownership, and the strategic alignment that you can put in place through the measures that we've talked about already today will really be waking up CEOs, COOs, and even CTOs to the, you know, the benefits of this approach. So I can only— yeah, I can only agree that this will grow, um, definitely within large enterprise, but, uh, it will start to proliferate down to smaller businesses as they are able to adopt those benefits as well, because the, the, you know, the barriers to entry are, are coming down.

Yeah, cool.

And I've seen that even with some of my smaller customers, um, that they're, they're starting to adopt that because they see that they then have the control themselves. They have to keep going out to externals or rely on IT who should really be focused on those big ERP implementations and not dealing with some of the, the, the stuff that's at the long end of the tail of change. So yeah, definitely, I think it enables the business to take control and make the differences, which means that then they can both deliver a better service for their customers, but also achieve their own targets that they have, especially in the operations space.

There's plenty of other stuff to do, isn't it, for the high-code developers?

Yes.

Cool. So we mentioned the web, not the web, We mentioned the white paper earlier, so there is a white paper, a more in-depth insight into this topic we discussed today. So yeah, the white paper can be downloaded and we will put the link into the show notes later. And yeah, thanks a lot Gerald, Leigh, Chris for joining the panel discussion today. And thanks a lot, Arno, of course, joining me here like usual. I'm sure our listeners out there want to become a citizen developer now or want to really spread the word on it and bring that into the organizations. I hope that's the case. This is what we try to do here at the podcast, to really make everyone excited about what process and automation can do. So, so what is the best for our listeners to get in touch with, with you guys?

I think for me, Sascha, LinkedIn is always a, a good route. And with a name like Gerald Pullen, I think there's only— there's certainly only one of me working, uh, for Go Beyond Partners on there anyway, so easy enough to find.

Cool.

Yeah, I'll second that, Gerald. I think you're right, uh, LinkedIn's the— that is the right place to start, isn't it? And, um, and I am the only Chris Pearce at E-Nate, that's for sure. So, um, I look forward to hearing from people.

Yeah, absolutely.

LinkedIn is the easiest option.

Cool, that's fantastic. Yeah, so that white paper will be available to download. And yeah, it was a great discussion on the topic of citizen development. And yeah, here at The Automation Guys, indeed, we are sharing our experience and passion for process automation, as I said, and we really want everyone to become a citizen developer, want to really play around with low-code and no-code. And that's why we created as well the Automation Guys community. Where everyone can jump onto an Automation Sandbox when they join the membership. And yeah, you can get started with experimenting hands-on automation. Yeah, and maybe fiddle around with ideas and then introducing these ideas maybe internally. So that's a great thing for everyone to check out. Yeah, get started today. Automationguides.net and join the community. And as always, reach out if you have any feedback and questions to Arno, myself. And yeah, thanks a lot again, Gerald, Lee, Chris. It was a pleasure to have you on the show today. And yeah, thanks for having us.

Yes. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you, guys.

Thank you. Yeah, we will be back with another episode of the Process and Automation Podcast very soon. And until then, Let's automate it. Unfortunately, that's it again with this episode of the Process in Automation Podcast. If you like this episode, please give us a 5-star rating and don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any upcoming episode. We hope you will tune in next time, and until then, let's automate it.

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