BBC Best Bits | Ep 7 | What We Get Wrong About Leaders

We keep throwing people into leadership roles and hoping they figure it out. Unfortunately, they often don't. In this episode of BBC Best Bits, we're looking back to episodes 48 and 49. We'll hear from Jamie Heaslip about the leadership gap and how we still promote people without equipping them. And we'll hear from Zoe Routh about the craft of asking versus commanding.

It's not right for me, I should probably say, to say what exactly it is. I mean, we can talk about the 5 elements of high-performance teams, you know, trust, accountability, healthy conflict, you know, results-driven organization, you know, so on and so forth. So you can get into all them, but, you know, again, even those words mean different things to different people.

Yeah.

But I've definitely picked up I've picked up a lot being around good leaders, being around bad leaders, being around good teams, being around bad teams, being around good cultures and bad cultures. And sport is a great way of— it's like life in fast forward, you know what I mean? It's like business in fast forward because you're playing every week, week in, week out, right? So the end product, like your end of quarter results are every weekend essentially.

Yeah.

And you win, you lose, and then you got to quickly go again. You got to learn the lessons. That's where accountability comes in. That's where honesty comes in. That's where vulnerability actually comes in. Those Monday morning reviews, I tell you, I mean, you've got to set up— how do I put this? You've got to set up such a good environment that's safe and psychologically safe so that people can be honest and can try things. But then you've got to hold yourself accountable to the outcomes and values and ways that you've all agreed on. And then you have to do that throughout the season. So then as the season has its peaks and its troughs, you've got to stay at a certain standard. And that's where wellness comes in because you've got to look at the bigger picture. You can't have your foot to the floor all season because you'll just burn people out.

Yeah.

They'll break down. And you want that car to respond to you when you do put the foot down. So you've got to manage that energy and manage what you're prioritizing and what you're dialing up, what you're dialing down. depending on the seasons. And then when you zoom right out to the macro view, it's like, how do you create— how do you create a legacy? You know what I mean? Or in sporting terms, how do you create a dynasty? Like, by being successful over the— over the real long table, like over the seasons. Um, and that's really interesting. It's really, you know, that's where I find a lot of joy, bringing those kind of metaphors and lessons into, um, the business world, into the coaching world.

Because everything you've just said there, I could actually, I could take the whole past couple of minutes and I could overdub where you said sport or rugby, I could overdub that with the word business. And the same would stand absolutely true that that whole idea, you know, and it's interesting you say, you know, we're not based on quarterly or half-year results. Actually, really good leaders in business aren't based on quarterly or half-year results either. They're sitting down with their teams every week, every couple of weeks, right, lads, what have we achieved this week? We've got a shared common goal, something that we're all going after. You know, we've agreed we're going to do X, Y, and Z. We've agreed that we're gonna it like this. We're going to hold each other accountable. We're going to have open and honest conversations. We're going to try some new stuff. And you know what? If it doesn't work, we're going to try something different. And we're going to learn from our mistakes. So really good leaders are doing exactly the same stuff.

Yeah. And it's funny, like when you look at, you know, how do you be successful over that long term? It is having some sort of purpose, I suppose. I think having a really clear purpose is really important to Like having the company having a purpose, and then yourself, you know, and how you align them up, I suppose, and how that fits in. And then from that purpose, you can get your values and your guidelines, and then you can understand what your strengths are and how you dial them up. Like, a really simple exercise for teams is using the PERL model, you know what I mean? Looking at, you know, the purpose, external environment, like external kind of factors, internal factors, relationships, and then how that all comes together. You know what I mean? That's a really quick and easy and, how do you say, dirty model on how you do it. And at the center of all that is obviously your leadership and the quality and the behaviors. And you can do that on a team, then you can do that like as yourself. But I was working with someone the other day and they're— I wasn't coaching them, we're just just kind of having a catch-up and they're asking me, what are the 2021 goals? Are you starting to form them? And I was like, well, actually I have 2030 goals, 2025 goals, 2023, then '21, and then literally I break it down by quarter. So I was like, I can tell you right now what the Q4 goals are for me. You know what I mean? And I was like, that's how— I mean, you might change, that 10-year might change, but you need some sort of direction. And that's where purpose comes in, I think.

Yeah.

And really helps you be that North Star.

And again, on this podcast, we talk about North Star a lot and we talk about purpose a lot. And I love the fact that if you can get somebody behind— I was only speaking about this the other day and I still can't say the word defibrillator. I'm sure that's not right.

Just say it quick and no one notices.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, there is that. So I'm working for a client at the moment that's a plastic injection molding company and they basically make parts for defibrillators. And there I go again. And I kind of said to them, you know, it's not about putting plastic beads into a machine and pulling out a piece of plastic at the end. Actually think further on that, apply a bit of human and think about the lives that potentially have been saved because of the work you've done, or perhaps the lives that have been lost because you haven't done your job quite so well. Take on that about the people stuff getting in the way of doing the job.

I think that's people's mentality when they first take on leadership roles. It's like they go from being fairly autonomous in their own world of expertise to now having to liaise with colleagues. And it's like, well, can't you just do your own thing, look after yourself? And there's kind of a bit of a shock to the system when people start knocking on their door saying, have you got a minute? And downloading whatever the issue is or asking for advice or whatever. And I see this often with new leaders that they are just bamboozled by the sheer amount and volume of interactions that they now need to contend with. And they find it distressing, annoying, and distracting because they just wanna go back to the tools. I had one leader describe it that way. He was a lawyer. He's like, ah, I just prefer just being on the tools, doing the trade or the craft of law and not having to deal with this more amorphous mass of— blobby-like people and all their blobby-like issues. So I think it's a shift in perspective that happens with people. It's like the real work, the real work of leadership is the people stuff. That's it. That's like 80% of what you should be doing is contending with what's going on for people, helping them solve their own issues, coaching them to higher levels, and helping them become leaders themselves. I mean, that should be your priority as a leader. All the other stuff is, is not necessarily leadership stuff. There's strategic thinking components, but if you don't do the people management side of things well, then it doesn't matter how good your strategy is. No one's going to stump up and deliver it the way that you want. So yeah, it's an orientation of priorities that is the biggest confrontation and realization for leaders when they first take on the mantle.

And I think that orientation of priorities is often hampered by an organization. And I think many organizations, not just individuals, but many organizations are still in a place where you get a leadership role and an insert specialty here role. You know, you're now the head of legal and you have a big team, which, which makes it hard to find that 80/20 balance, I guess.

Absolutely. Like, I'm thinking about lawyers in particular right now, because that's— you see that happen badly often, is a very successful lawyer gets put in charge of a team and meant to mentor his staff. And he's still got allocated, he or she has still been allocated a budget that they need to deliver on. So there is a real tension, a real tension that is all about delivering on your targets, because you get often, in many cases, get remunerated based on that, and the obligation to cultivate a team. And that is a real tension. That is quite challenging. And you're right, so building a specialty and then adding the layer of leadership specialty on top of it is, it's like going back to the beginning, going back to being a beginner in some ways. And just because you're smart doesn't mean you're necessarily gonna be automatically a great leader. They're a completely different set of skills than your technical expertise. And that's sobering and humbling for many people.

Yeah. Yeah, it suddenly makes— it brings you right back down to brass tacks, doesn't it? Suddenly, I'm not the expert anymore. I'm not the most senior person in the room. Yeah, it's an incredible challenge for people. And I do think that we end up throwing people into leadership roles just because they're senior, just because they've got lots of years on the tools under their belt. And they're not necessarily the best person for the job. But organizations still struggle with that whole dual career path thing, where it's okay to be an expert in a particular field, Yeah. And it's okay to also be a people leader, and you work your way up the organization. What's your job? I'm a leader of people, as opposed to a lawyer or an IT consultant.

I think that's a really astute observation, is that you're right, there's not the dual career track for that. So if you don't want to be a people leader and you do just wanna specialize, often you're stymied, like there is no room for you to progress, and your contribution gets stuck and contained. And there's no real recognition of the expertise of being a people leader and the magnificence that that brings. So you kind of need to dabble in both bits. That would be—

So how do we— sorry, go on.

I was just thinking, like, what an interesting work experiment that would be, to recraft organizations so that you could do that. You could develop expertise and have that be a genuine track that gets compensated and has high levels, and being a people leader track.

And that was gonna be my question. I wonder how you would do that.

You'd have to redesign your career orientation around that. And well, that's the technical solution, but I think it probably needs a shift in values and the larger culture change piece around it too. So I think if you're gonna do that kind of experiment, you need to assess, okay, what are our values in the organization and will they support this kind of structural change?

And then you layer on the fact that, and I do promise listeners, we will get to a point where we won't talk about COVID-19 in these podcasts, 'cause I know it's getting a little grating, but for now we will. If leadership is in crisis and then we're taking that leadership crisis and layering that on top of, let's not beat around the bush, a planet that's in crisis with this whole pandemic thing, what are some of the challenges that leaders are facing at the moment if you're talking about them being in crisis?

The crisis centers around a crisis of trust in leadership. That's what really what leaders are contending with in terms of their context. So never before has trust in leadership been so eroded. The Edelman Trust Barometer did a survey in February of this year in Australia, and I think around the world, but I was just paying attention in particular to the Australian results about which institutions do people trust in Australia, and trust being evaluated by competence, and ethics. Those are the 2 main criteria. And no institution came out as being trustworthy. So neither competent and— so no institution was deemed both competent and ethical.

Wow.

Yeah, so businesses, business, like private sector business, was deemed competent, but not necessarily perceived as ethical. And not-for-profits were perceived as ethical, but not necessarily competent. And the ones that scored neither competent nor ethical were media.

Thanks for listening. If you want to hear these interviews in full, you'll find links to each one in the show notes. And for more on Inspiring Change and the work we do, just pop along to inspiringchange.ie.