Asking Better Questions Changes Everything in Sales

But no, there we are. We are live. Welcome everyone to another episode of Creative on Purpose Live. This is a show dedicated to the intersection of work that matters and the art of living. I am so thrilled to be here with my new friend and a longtime neighbor, Bruce. Bruce, tell our viewers who you are, what you're up to these days, and where can people go to learn more about you and the difference you're making?

Yeah, so my name obviously is Bruce Bryan with a Y, which throws people off, and there's a lot of Bruce Bryans, so they call me whatever whatever. But my website is Bruce C. Bryan. And, and that's probably a great place to catch the, the different things I'm involved with. Probably the mix that is most interesting to you and to your viewers and listeners. I've got a radio show, which is also now a podcast, which I'm looking forward to returning the favor and having you be a guest sometime. It's called Naturally Curious, and it airs on the NPR station in Virginia. And then it's repurposed wherever you would get, you know, podcasts. And I need to get better at my Substack game, so that'll be one of my assignments. I also wrote a book, second book that was released last year late in September called Turning Tables: Everything I Needed to Know About Business I Learned as a Server. And I've been using that to talk to a lot of groups and CEOs about the power of service and these lessons that are incredible from the hospitality industry. And then my, my main job, side job, I own a marketing and advertising agency in Roanoke, Virginia called Five Points Creative, the number 5 and points with an S. We have our own little website and social medias and all those kinds of things. We've been around about 17 years, do a lot of work in Virginia. But interestingly enough, you know, the world has shrunk, as you well know, and Our latest clients have been in Cheyenne, Indiana, Tennessee, Denver. So doing work all over the country, but primarily in the Southeast. So that's a really long explanation. I've got 6 grandkids, 5 kids acquired a bunch of different ways. And man, I love where you are, Floyd. We, my wife and I sneak up there when we get a chance.

Yeah. Well, I'm super— so Bruce is an author, as you just heard, and he and I are going to be doing a collaborative, book launching event at the Book House here in Floyd, which is our newest and most favorite bookstore in the area. And, uh, I'm really looking forward to that as well. I definitely want to dive into the book. I'm curious, curious about, uh, your show and I appreciate the invitation. And also I think we could touch a little bit on, um, our shared interest in marketing, but before we dive into any of that. I'm always kind of curious with my, uh, guests, how did you come to be doing what you're, you're doing? I'm guessing little 9-year-old Bruce Bryan didn't wake up one day and say, you know what I want to be when I grow up? I want to be a podcaster and an author and a marketer. So how did— what was the journey from then to, uh, doing what you're doing now?

Yeah, so what's so crazy is my high school friends, and we're all still friends, believe it or not, we have a little text group. There's 6 of us that message each other, and we try to get together periodically. And they would say I ended up right where I started, which maybe not 9 years old, but somewhere in that age, I had a little handheld recorder, tape recorder. Back then we had tape recorders. And I was a sports play-by-play guy that I was practicing on the TV how to do it. And so I always wanted to do radio. I used to fall asleep listening to the radio. Like the— I was outside Philadelphia, so like the Phillies games or the 76ers games or whatever. And I'd wake up and I'd have nightmares at 2 in the morning because like Mystery Science Theater was on with all the UFOs and extraterrestrials. And I'd run into my parents' room. So I might have been 8 or 9 actually. And so I'd always loved radio. And I started in college doing some radio. And in a full circle kind of way, this NPR show, it gets me right back to there again. And people that know me think these things are all very desperate, Desperate, too, but despairate. But they actually do fit together in a strange way. So I spent 20-some years in the broadcasting business on the sales side, on the capitalist side, and was Director of Sales mostly in Michigan and Ohio, and then down here in Virginia. I was recruited here. And then the Great Recession got me in '07 in Toledo and '09 in Roanoke, and I started my ad agency. And so 17 years ago, we did that. And, you know, I kept throughout my whole professional career, I kept reflecting on these lessons I learned in high school and college from my time as a waiter. And I did a talk, I found it actually, it's on YouTube. I did a talk in 2015 and that outline of that, of the book, Everything I Needed to Know About Business I Learned as a Waiter Back Then is what I said, really was there and then just kept coming up in my brain over the last 10 years or so. So then a couple years ago, real quick, I'll finish this part. A couple years ago, The Bear won all those awards in 2023 and I thought, now is the time. It's the right time for me to take these lessons, take what's happening in pop culture, and mix them together in a way that hopefully resonates with audiences. And that's been the most satisfying part, I think, is hearing how these lessons and messages have people shaking their head going, "Oh my gosh, yeah, somebody should have written— I could have written them." Like, "Yeah, you could have written it." Then, you know, but it was great. It was great to tell the stories of so many other people. I interviewed a lot of people, um, for the book, and that was really cool too. Sorry for the long answer, but yeah, man.

Oh, that's great. No, it's, it's, it's a wonderful answer. Actually just brought back this memory of mine of having one of those like lunchbox-sized Panasonic tape recorders, and I used to pretend I was the DJ for a show called, uh, WCRA's CRZY, Crazy Radio. And I used to do the, do the DJ spiel and then, you know, play, play the radio, the actual radio, uh, to capture songs. So that's really— it's, it is one of the things that's really interesting about this question and the answers it elicits is that so much of the time when people share the memories and the, the things that they did as kids, uh, or young adults and even into adulthood, how what we're doing now completely makes sense because we are just— our becoming always lies in being more of what we've always been. Um, and I guess that leads, before we get to the book, you know, to your podcast and the whole idea of curiosity. Um, I think really ties into this in that The things that we end up doing that are kind of for us, or maybe they're life calling to us because it's wanting to speak through us in a more connected creative capacity. A lot of it has to do with getting into our cure, you know, like re-igniting and re-engaging and re-embracing our natural curiosity, which often comes through things that it sounds like you're doing, which is like talking to other people about how they came to be doing what they're doing and what they do and why it matters and all that sort of thing. So I'm just kind of curious about your take on, you know, this sounds like circumstances initiated a shift, but it also provided the opportunity to connect with something that maybe was speaking to you for a while before you actually pulled the trigger and started doing something new.

Yeah, absolutely. And I hope sometime during our, our time together I get to hear your FM radio voice. So because everybody has it, right? Yeah, so maybe you'll, you'll, you'll share that with us. Yeah, I've always been interested in a mix of things, right? And so, um, around a decade ago I started a nonprofit music venue, and our ad agency's worked with probably 80 or 90 nonprofits through the, the time together. And I've always had a mix of things I've enjoyed doing. Uh, you can't quite see it, but there's a book on my shelf called Range, which I just love interesting things. And the premise of the show was really, um, people are used to talking about themselves for 30 seconds or maybe 3 minutes, but in longer form setting such as this— so this is kind of weird because this is— I'm used to being you, and now I'm the, the person being asked the questions. Um, and people have interesting stories to tell, and I just thought it would be a really fun— it would be a show I would want to listen to. And just like this was a book I would want to read. So I try to do things and make things that I would be interested in. And I wrote last month, and I do a monthly blog, done a couple hundred of them for my, my company. And I wrote recently, I went to a party and was there for a few hours and nobody asked me a single question, Scott. I was asking other people questions, but nobody asked me a question. And it got me thinking. I realized how often that's the case, that we're busy telling people things and not asking questions. And so I just wanted to hear good stories. And the best way to do that is to ask people questions. And that's true in the sales arena. It's true in the branding and the marketing arena. It was true to write this book. So it does feel like even though this radio show is my— and the podcast is my 3.0 career, it feels like in many ways it is kind of a full circle thing going back to WMUB radio in Oxford, Ohio when I'd work the overnights.

Yeah, really, really fascinating. Well, that's, uh, yeah, I couldn't agree more about the, the— I think a lot of the time we're, we spend a lot of our time trying to be interesting, um, but people actually respond much more when, uh, much more warmly and, and, and authentically when you're interested.

I love that.

Yeah. So that's, I love that impulse. Um, I love your book. I love our, my brand, my community. A lot of what I write about is about this impulse, this basic human impulse for, um, being generous and kind and being and serving. Other people. And your book is very much about the lessons you learned of the impact and the value of service through being a server. Another thing that we— I actually have done radio ad sales in my past. I've also been a whatever we call waiters now. That, that, that was me at one point. But it doesn't sound to me like What I love about the book most is that I don't, like, I don't see how someone says, oh, I know I can write a book about all the lessons I learned about what I do now that came from this, you know, what most people would think of as a, as a bridge job or just something that I did because I had to do it at a time in my life. Like, where, where did, where did the, the epiphany, the insight, the motivation come to like like, oh, this experience that I had that it's probably kind of everyday mundane is actually the premise of a really insightful, inspiring book.

Well, first of all, thank you for calling it insightful and inspiring. And the title's a bit of a misnomer because I— when I decided I want to do this book, I had the outline, but I knew I needed to talk to other people. So my story is definitely in there, but so much of it is a mix of other people's stories. And that, I think, is really meaningful. And hearing from people, "Oh, you told my story well," has been really, I guess, empowering for me. Because I love, I do love telling stories, and they're other people's stories. And it goes back to, you were in radio sales, I was in TV sales. One year in radio sales back in the day. And I just kept running into the same things over and over again, where I realized, oh wait, this is like taking out a dessert cart "Because if I get 1 person to buy a dessert, then 2 or 3 are going to buy dessert and they'll get coffee and that'll raise the average sale." And look at what happens when you do that. Or when I would cold call somebody, which we had to do a lot in the media business, it occurred to me, I'm approaching this business, I'm in their world. And is it really— it is different than when you're a server at a restaurant because you're, walking to a table where they've come into your place and they're expecting you versus a cold call in industry where you're coming in unannounced and uninvited, but you're still interrupting as a server and you're still interrupting when you go on a quote-unquote cold call. And so more and more I kept thinking, I've done this before, I can do this. And the, the side work that you do in the restaurant business, uh, really translates to the prep work that you do in whatever kind of industry a person's involved in. So I just kept making mental notes. And then I was asked to speak again up in Ohio, maybe, like I said, 15, 10 years ago. And I realized, I think I have something here. And like a lot of things, Scott, I set it on the shelf about 7 years, kept kind of—

but it—

when something is coming to you repeatedly, you, you really have to listen to yourself. You really have to listen to yourself. And I think my marketing support person said, man, you know what I love about this story is how you had it a decade ago, but you didn't share it until the last couple of years. So cool. So it's okay, right?

Yeah. Well, that's really, that's a great insight because oftentimes the folks that, that I speak to are interested in writing a book. And they think that the book is like this means to something bigger that they want. And oftentimes the advice I give is— I get this also from musicians here in the town that I live. Like, I made a living as a professional musician for 30 years, and I have young people, retired people, all kinds of people come up to me and say, man, I'd really love to do what you do. I think I'm, you know, how do I do that? And I just say, don't. Like, it is the hardest way you can think of to make a living.

Yes.

Um, and writing a book is the hardest thing you will ever do. If, like, you shouldn't write a book because you think it's going to get you something, because what it's going to get you mostly is a lot of angst and a lot of, you know, I mean, yes, there is the, the moment of holding your first book in your hands and it's amazing, but If, if you're looking at it as the means to an end, either as a, as a platform builder or as a moneymaker, uh, you know, not so much. So I love that story because what I often tell people is before you, you know, like burn the boats and go all in on the music career or the writing the book, like, well, just put it on the shelf for 3 months. And if it's still talking to you, then it's probably something that like wants you to bring forth into the world. And if you forget about it, good. Like, you should— that's not the thing. So I think that's a really, um, I've had the same— that every, everything I've ever done is something that I let sit on the shelf for at least 3 to 6 months before I acted on it. And I only acted on it because it would not let me go.

It wouldn't go away. It wouldn't go quiet. I know it's your show and I probably should let you ask the questions, but are you thinking 2 or 3 songs or 2 or 3 books ahead, or are you, are you just in the next project? Oh, that should make sense.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, every, every album I've ever recorded, by the time it was done, I was so done with it and all I wanted to do was get to the next one. But that's not the way it works. And it's been the same with books. Like, I— what I'm trying— what I'm eventually learning here is that once the book is written, you know, that's just the end of one race and it's the beginning of the next race, and they're both marathons. And it's better to spend more time getting the word out and trying to connect what you've already done with the people that need to collide with it to enhance their lives. Um, but as, you know, as creative people, we just can't wait for the next thing because that's— we get so much energy and juice and dopamine and all the things from 'Oh, it's new, it's exciting, and let's just go in.' So yeah, it's a really interesting— yeah, it's an interesting way of being.

I interviewed somebody recently and was talking to them about this very thing, and to me, Scott, if people think writing the book's hard, it almost feels to me like— and this may be— I don't know, this is out, so— but it almost feels like writing the book's the easy part sometimes. The editing part is grueling because you start to own that thing, and it takes a lot of, um, stick-to-itiveness to let things go and to change things and to get rid of things and to clean things up. And you have to go through it multiple times, and just like you said, you're kind of sick of it. And about the time it releases, you've had enough. And I see that in the TV business too. When, when we're making commercials, our clients are like, ah, Man, we need a new commercial. And I think people don't even know you're running a commercial because you've seen it. Well, first of all, you saw the storyboard, you were there at production, you saw the rough cuts and you've seen all. And as soon as you hear the first note of music, you know it's your commercial, whereas the viewer or the listener, radio or TV, haven't even really gotten it on their radar. And that's the way it's been with this book. So this was my second published book. And the first one, I didn't do any of these things, but really the editing part is kind of that phase 2, and the phase 3 is the marketing and the sharing. And I'm great at marketing other people's stuff and know exactly what they should do, but when it comes to putting yourself out there or your product or your book, it's awkward and uncomfortable and it feels self-promoting and it just doesn't feel good. And yet, um, at the time you're tired of talking about Turning Tables and thinking about the next book or the book after that is the time that people are like, wait, you've got 'What's it about? How's that work?' And you're like, 'I've told this story 100 times, but not to that person,' right? And that is a chore. And you, you're shaking your head because you know it's exactly what happens. So I can't really say which is the most difficult. They're all— I love all parts, all three parts of that, and there are probably other parts too, but, um, they're all very challenging in different ways, in my opinion.

Yeah, well One of the things that before we got on this call, I wasn't aware of the, the marketing side of, of who you are and what you do, but it doesn't surprise me at all because the, the idea— one of the things that was really challenging for me at the very beginning of my association with Seth Godin is I was hired to be a coach in the marketing seminar. Which I was first a student in the very, the, the beta. And one of the reasons why I was interested in, in doing the workshop is my relationship with marketing was incredibly fraught. Like, I, I didn't like marketing because I thought marketing was sales, and marketing is not sales. And if you're marketing in a way that is ethical and has integrity, it is actually about service. It's about empathy. It's about Yes, generosity, right? And so there is, you know, that connection between what your book, what your second book is about, and what you also do as your day job. That's really interesting to me. So I would love to, to hear a little bit about, um, just the way that you're talking about marketing already doesn't sound to me like the way I hear most marketers talk about marketing. And so I'm wondering about just how you came to think about it the way you do and how that has actually really helped inform and inspire helping yourself with promoting your own work, but also just being an engaged person, you know, out in the world.

So to talk about marketing, I have to go back and actually talk about sales and say to you that I think I might, I might possibly have a different perspective on sales than you do. I mean, I was in sales, but I also was a hirer and a manager of sellers for, like I said, 20 years. And the best sellers were problem solvers, and the best problem solvers were solving problems that clients didn't even know they had. And so I think I worked with a lot of sellers that had really good ideas and they had really good solutions, and I've seen how authentic sales relationships really do help clients or prospects or whomever it might be. And so I think I naturally translated that from sales to the marketing side. And it really is about problem solving. And one of the things I have learned over the last 17 years with Five Points Creative is that people have to want to work with us. And so often what happens is you're, you're helping people get solutions and you're helping them solve problems and they're fighting you on it. You hire an attorney and you do what the attorney says, and you hire a CPA and you do what the tax man says, and you hire a marketing company and you use AI and tell him how to do or tell her how to do their jobs, right? And that is the genesis. Everybody's a marketer. And there is some truth to that because so much of what we do is at the core, very basic. The example I use without going too much detail is like yard work. People— I know how to edge my lawn, I know how to cut my grass, I know how to weed or whatever, but that doesn't mean I want to do it myself, right? I'd rather do other things. And the marketing is the same thing. I think people can do a lot of what we do for our clients. There's some, there's some of the magic that they can't do, um, ideas they can't do, but a lot of what they do is very rudimentary, but they don't do it. I was just looking at a website today that we built, I think in 2020, 2021, with a client who's in in the engineering world. They haven't updated it since 2022. And I said to my friend who was looking at it, that's exactly what happens. You can do it, but you just don't get around to doing it. And so the marketing stuff is really about staying consistent and sticking with it. And— excuse me— that's a lot of what I'm learning with marketing my book. And so having yourself as a client is really difficult, but staying on the message, staying consistent, those are the things that really make a difference. And it sounds like that's been your experience in the marketing world as well. And it's really about helping people and solving problems. And they can ignore you if they want. People can ignore gravity too, but it's going to get them one way or the other. And these marketing principles are so true that I can look somebody in the eye and say, this is what you need to do. It's just, do you have the stomach to do what needs to get done?

Yeah. Well, it speaks to the importance of and this is, this is what I learned from being a student and then a coach in Seth Godin's programs, is you, you have to get clear about defining the terms. Sales and marketing are things that we all think we understand, and, but if you were asked to define them, they, they be— then we find out, oh yes, maybe I don't really. So one of the things that, you know, That's been a real journey for me and, and kind of becoming or refining and, and, and sharing my own approach to marketing, which I call Be a Blessing Marketing, because I think marketing is at its best when it is separated from sales, because those are two different skill sets and two different things. And, and just is, is thinking about marketing as the— well, I guess the way I think about it is marketing is telling true stories whose lives would— to people whose lives would be enhanced by colliding with what it is that you offer, what you do, what your product is. And the best way to earn someone's enrollment in that you are a person that has a solution to their problem, as you beautifully articulated, is to actually help them. Like, before you get into the transactional element of it, this is like what books do, right? Like, the, the book— I often say people can, can read my Substack and they'll, they'll get all the information that I have because it's all there. Um, if you're going to subscribe with a paid membership or become a client, what you're actually paying me for is curation and, uh, access and, uh, help collapsing time to target. That's what I— that's what the transaction will involve. But if you just want the inspiration or the information, please have at it, because if, if you can't find it there, go to ChatGPT and it will make it up for you.

So yeah, and I just was editing a newsletter that we're sending out. We do one twice a month for the Turning Tables group. And I was like, ooh, do I wanna put that out there? Because that's one of the main things I talk about in my sessions. And then I realized just what you just said, which is, man, it's already out there. It's hearing it and absorbing it and how you receive it. And so you're really being transparent and being open with giving information. I always say in my day job, like you were talking about, that the best branding is about branding the consumer, not about branding your business. So when I work with a client, they always want to say, "Well, we've been in business 20 years, and we are the best at this, and we do quality." And I'm like, "Nobody cares. They want to know what's in it for me." And the best brands, whether it's Nike, "Just Do It," or McDonald's, you know, "I'm loving it," has nothing to do— "Just Do It" has nothing to do with Nike. It has to do with empowering the consumer. Right? And so you, you obviously get it. You're a marketing person who's written a book, who's been in ad sales. So of course, we're, it's like looking in a mirror, except you're a little younger and better looking.

Yeah. That's a great insight because it is one of the great confusions, especially in the age of personal, like we all have to have a personal brand, is we think that our brand is, is how we package what we want people to think about us. But Your brand is actually not what you say you are. Your brand is what other people say you are. And your brand is actually the interpretation other people have based on what they see and hear and observe you doing. And, you know, like, if you want to be seen as a good actor and as a competent, uh, generous, you know, whatever, then you should just actually show up that way in the world and, and You know, it's— I think of it as the distinction between your, um, your reputation and your character. It's like they're two different things. Your character is who you actually are, and your reputation is what other people think you are. But if you show up in a way that, uh, reflects the reputation you want to have, there's enough overlap that you'll probably get enough of the right people in your sphere of influence, circle of connections, whatever, to make a deal.

Excuse me.

Sorry. Oh no. So we're, we're coming to the end of our time together, and I have a feeling that you and I can talk about this stuff forever, and we will have the opportunity to do so, uh, in August at the, at the bookstore when we both get a chance to talk about our, our books a little bit. Um, for the folks that are, that are here, and I just want to give a shout out to Mike, uh, we have a couple of community members, Claire and Penny., as well. And then Ryan and Duncan, who is a new reader, Molly, um, you know, these are all folks that are, that are tuning in now that I, I really appreciate the gift of your time and attention. Um, for the folks that are, that I just mentioned and all the folks that are going to hear this in the replay and on the podcast, for, you know, the, the, the people that are attracted to this show and, and to my work are folks that are purpose-driven, that do want to make a difference, that understand that life is calling them to make the difference only they can make in the way only they can make it. What is one final question you would have for them, or piece of advice, or, or quotation, or anything? What's— what can they take away from this conversation that will help them take the next step into their potential and possibility? As purpose-driven creators and difference makers?

I think it's bring value, Scott. I think it is bring value. Take wherever you go, take yourself in a way where you can deliver value. And we say this to our clients all the time. We have to put good content out, right? Not for what you get out of it. If you're involved in a nonprofit, it's never about what you get from it. But I've noticed in the different nonprofit work that I've done, boards or pro bono or even paid work, I always get more out of it than I put into it. And so put everything you can into it and don't do that so you'll get things out of it, but you will get things out of it if you're paying attention to bringing value to other people.

That is a fantastic insight for us to end on. I really appreciate that, Bruce. It has been, uh, an absolute delight to spend this time with you. I can't wait to spend a little bit more time in the very near future. And for those of you that are tuning in, you can check out Bruce and the difference he's making. Give us the website one more time, Bruce.

It's brucecbryan.com. And from there, you can also check out Five Points Creative, the number 5 points with an S, creative. And then Naturally Curious, if after you've listened to all Scott's episodes, if you want to listen to that, it's wherever you would listen to a podcast. I'd love to hear from people. And I am not just looking forward to hanging with you in August, but having you on the show as well. It'll be fun to turn the table. Oh, I really did not mean to do that, but I did it. So there we go. I, I, there you go. A little self-serving, but it will be fun to do that.

Well, be sure to check out the book, the podcast, and all the other great work that Bruce is doing. Really appreciate the gift of your time and attention and sharing your expertise and knowledge with us, Bruce. For everyone else, be sure to check Bruce out wherever he is. We'll look forward to to your adventures in Substacking in the very near future. And just thanks everyone. Uh, we'll look forward to seeing everyone where we have— wherever we see you next. And, uh, until next time, be well, do good, and have fun. Thanks, Bruce.