Coffee on Purpose - Janis Nakano Spivack

Belt, put your tray in the upright position, because just like that, ladies and gentlemen, we've arrived simultaneously on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. My name is Scott Perry, Chief Difference Maker at Creative on Purpose, where we help people that are invested in social impact work experience a greater sense of equanimity and fulfillment while they are making the difference only they can make. I'm thrilled to be here at Coffee on Purpose: Caffeinated Conversations with Inspiring Difference Makers to be with my very dear friend, Janice, who is going to introduce herself, and then we're going to have a rich conversation about a word that matters more than any other word that I can think of. If you're a difference maker ready to really lean in and fly higher in the difference only you can make. So Janice, please introduce yourself to our viewers. Tell people who you are, what you do, and where can they connect with you to learn more?

Sure. Thank you, Scott Perry. I'm so excited to be on Kofi. On purpose with you. Thank you for inviting me. I do have a cup of coffee.

Awesome. Just out of curiosity, what are you drinking?

I drink Peet's full blast, full bore, not diluted in any way. So thank you. Yes, I'm the co-founder of Bright Catalyst, an innovation company focused on self-investment products and services. Our first service is CRUSH, a micro masterclass that helps individuals gain skills that help them clarify, trust, and have more confidence in themselves. Uh, we've been fortunate to have a highly diverse community of cultures globally, from 15 to 80 plus, across every strata of society. And I'm so happy to be here continuing our off-pod conversations. About self-worth, sense of self, and now worthiness.

Yeah. Yeah. So just want to also give a quick shout out for Janice and I connected through the Modern Elder Academy. She was one of the co-facilitators of my cohort. Booyah to all my friends that might be tuning in or tuning into the replay. And yeah, we, we connected and had some very interesting conversations while the the, the whales danced off in the sea.

Amazing.

Around us. And, uh, yeah, I couldn't be more thrilled to— it's, it's been, it's, it's been a minute, Janice, since we, we, uh, talked to each other. And you chose this word, and I have been mulling it over before, during, and since. And I think it's really helpful in these conversations to actually get some clarity on what do we mean. Like, so when you think of worthiness, what is it? How do you define that term? What are you talking about when you think about worthiness?

Well, I know that you're an architect of language, and so I actually looked up the word worthiness, and I found it really interesting that the beginnings of the word were about external, external validation of the individual. And the work that I do mostly is about internal validation and self-worth. And so I'm really excited to talk to you about this word because it has so many different sort of dimensions to it. And I was astonished to discover that it was really, um, the essence of the word is about others authenticating or judging you. And for me, um, I'm interested in how we begin to find a counterbalance to, uh, our, our overabundance of requirement that you are authenticated by others, liked, followed. Hello, social media. Versus first having confidence in, I am worthy for myself. So I'd love to hear, I'd actually love to hear from you, master of language.

If I'm an architect of language, I would not live in any of the things that I'm building. Um, yeah, so worthiness is— I, I think of worthiness as an expression of value, and I love what you were sharing. Um, you know, we often are judging others based on external, what we can see, the externals. Um, and we often are judging ourselves based on what we can see and, and, you know, what we, what we create, what we do. And here's, here's something really interesting I've learned in the work that, that we're doing at Creative On Purpose. And, you know, we are helping people define, develop, and deliver the difference only they can make. It might not be their occupation, but it's something that they see as a vocation. You know, for some people, like the people that you and I collided with at the Modern Elder Academy, it's something that they're doing as they climb the second mountain of their lives. And for others, it's, it's just something, you know, that they're doing to build a stronger sense of identity and forge more meaning from their lives because they're not getting that from what they do for a living. The people that I work with are kind, compassionate, generous, grateful, and they can, and they are almost always facing out. So they are extending worthiness to others. They are extending in abundance, kindness, compassion, generosity, and all those things. And yet, when we sit down for coaching conversations, and I get to crawl in their head and listen to some of the internal conversation. The conversations around worthiness are very, very different. Yeah. And that fascinates me. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, and, and I think people are fascinating and, um, I think the person that's most fascinating to each of us is ourselves. And, you know, I know that my con— that, that what has held me back for most of my life have been conversations with myself about myself and about my worthiness. So I don't know if I answered any questions for you there, but would love to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, I think that's beautiful. So, so most of the individuals that I work with in the practice of Bright Catalyst, so one of the other components is that I am a co-founder of a new company in marketing technology, and I also do individual work and also business work around around leadership. And my passion and specialty is in first-time managers and leaders. So when someone has been given more responsibility for others, um, that's usually when I'm brought in. And that dialogue— so while you are observing that dialogue at people, in people who are farther along. I'm observing this dialogue when people are being given more, uh, responsibility and authority for the first time. And so you, you can imagine that voice of, am I worthy? How did I get here? Or the concern about authenticity or authority or anything I'm responsible, um, causes a lot of anxiety and a lot of really lovely conversation. And so there are two things that I noticed. The first one is, um, most individuals are going to external resources and pulling down quotes and other authorities And so my question is always, what does your— what, what do you think? What do you personally feel? What is your wisdom? And many of them say, I don't know, I don't know anymore, I don't know, I can't hear myself. And so listening to you talk about worthiness, right, when we are externally recognized and given authority and then internally not feeling worthy, as you said, and I am also fascinated about what does that mean, is that, you know, our society that we're in today? Have we given more credence to others for whatever reason? Money, authority, you know, uh, you know, control. I don't know, but I loved, you know, this for me is a really interesting conversation.

You've mentioned authority several times, and that is an edge I'd love to lean into because something I wrote about recently on, on the Creative On Purpose blog is authority. And, um, well, authority is something that we often, you know, bestow on others.

Yeah.

And, and if we think about who we allow to have authority, you know, we, in this country, we reward people that are, um, confident, even overconfident and certain about things that of which there is no certitude, right? But we, we, we are looking for people that have that overconfidence and that certitude, and, and we give up our own authority to people, um, that just have the, the hubris and the bombast to, to say, not only am I worthy, but I am entitled. Uh, the root word of authority is author, and we are each the authors of our own stories. And one of the things that we say very frequently at Creative On Purpose is choose your story, choose your future. And it sounds simple because it is simple, but simple is almost never easy. So we— there's a point in our lives when, you know, what I'm also hearing and what you're saying earlier is, um, brings up to me the idea of the imposter, imposter syndrome. And we give up our, our inner authority oftentimes to, to the imposter. And, um, but there was a time in our lives when we were fearless, not, not overconfident, and not certain of anything, but fearless, curious, courageous creatives. And we help, you know, we, with this love and support of people, friends and family, we turned ourselves from non-talkers into talkers and non-walkers into walkers and non-readers into readers and non-writers into writers. Think of the impossibility of all of those things. Think of all the nuance and, and higher symbolic thinking, all the things that go into the— those are impossible things to do, and yet we did them, and we did them without negotiating with our imposter. Um, one of the other meanings of worthiness is sufficiency, to be good enough. Are you, you know, worthy of this, that, or the other? And I think that there's another— one of the ways that we can return to that childlike sense of wonder and rigor is to, um, toggle back and forth between sufficiency and striving. You know, that we are fine just the way we are, we are good enough just the way we are. And yet, as human beings, we are also— many of us— people that are striving to be and do more, to be and do better. And those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. We're sufficient and worthy just as we are, and we can give ourselves permission to take small steps into our potential and possibility by owning our story, by being the author of our inner dialogue. It's not simple. I'm sorry, it's simple, but it's not easy, which is why trusted guides and fellow travelers are so important. And those are other things that you actually have some control over.

Yes, and So I was, uh, my early career was as an artist. I was brought up, um, in art school, advertising, uh, and, um, created for a living. And, uh, associated with that, um, was, um, and I use the word authority probably because I was brought up in, um, the military. So my Dad was in the military. I was an Air Force brat my entire life, right? So I grew up in a structured environment, but I was also picked up and moved constantly around the world. And so what I had the, the gift, and I'm so grateful for, of seeing was the inequality and the lack of consistent support Not everyone had individuals to support them. Different cultures did not give equal support and worthiness to everyone, and so for some it is much more difficult. It is a harder road to hoe to get to self-worth. Yeah, so I think one of the trainings that I had the gift of— and, and this sounds awful and weird and hilarious— but, um, when I was in art school, and I credit this man so incredibly, still remember him, um, he would, uh, come at us, and his goal was to basically desensitize us to the idea of being critiqued. So you put up your work and basically go at you and like tear it down. And what you would have to do is essentially build the skill of holding your center when you are being asked and critiqued and criticized over and over again. Here's my best work, here's my heart, and then someone sits there and says, well, I don't like blah blah blah, and you have to figure out either you're going to be crushed, right, and collapse, or you learn to hold your center that this thing that I am showing is not me. I am something. I am worth this. These things that I'm producing, these, you know, that this person crap criticizing and asking and questioning my validity. Am I worth being in this room? Um, that's not me. This is me. And so that is really the work that I do when I sit with individuals, is to say, you being in that room and not doing well in that presentation or whatever it is, is not you. It's a moment. You are not a failure because you, you couldn't stand up and answer that authority's question. You are still worthy.

I love that you wove that in. And yes, there are definitely people in the world that do not have the benefit of being supported and loved and nurtured. We also are all born with different temperaments and tolerances, different capacities and abilities, different ways of thinking and being. Um, and yet there, there there does come a point where you do have some, uh, authority over your internal narrative, your reasoned choices for who, who, who do I, who, who, who do I connect with? Who do I not connect with?

Yeah.

Um, what, what do I allow in and what do I do my best to keep out? Uh, and this— what comes up for me is, you know, we could go off on a wild tangent around this too, but we're also talking a little bit about power dynamics when we're talking about authority and our internal wrestling with worthiness. And, and there's a fascinating book that I just finished reading called Power for All. I cannot remember the author's names. I think they are two women that are, I think they're both professors at Harvard, but it is a fascinating book. Power for All is the title. It's pretty brand new. Um, and one of the things that they talk about is how power is in part an expression of what we value, which is pointing back to our, uh, talk about defining worthiness, and that how power is not authority necessarily. Power is not evil necessarily. And that one of the, the book ends with some reflections on how it's also not scarce. And that's another thing that I think we, we continue to believe at our peril in this country, that there's a finite amount of it and you better get yours and prevent others from getting, getting any of yours. And that's, that is causing us harm and putting us in existential peril. And one of the, in this book, they, at the end, they talk about the importance of power sharing, which helps make sure that the power that you possess does not run amok and that it turns power into this abundant renewable, renewing resource that we can extend. Not, you know, that, that we can, uh, so a lot of this, I think for me, the, one of the things that I would invite our listeners and viewers to consider is what if you did worthiness from the inside out? You know, what if you, instead of being the person that's always giving, giving, giving and, and seeing. And, um, acknowledging the worthiness of others. What if you started with yourself? Would you maybe have even more power, worthiness, gratitude, generosity that could, could then be extended? One of the things that I think is the source of burnout is that burnout happens when you're giving something that you no longer possess. If you treat your time, attention, energy, and effort as, as a finite resource that you're— and you're only giving it out, uh, at some point you'll run out. And when you run out and you keep giving, that's when burnout happens. How do you create a virtuous cycle when you're surrounding yourself with and for the— and doing work with and for the right people, you know, and in a way that makes worthiness and power and all these other things continue to, to, to be part of a virtuous cycle.

Yeah, and I think, um, I— so one, um, as you're, as you're reflecting, for me, the— like, you're coming back to that author, right? The essence of that word. Um, so author, um, self-worth, and also I think the, the skill building or the reminding to ask ourselves, what do I think? We're so hyper-focused on, you know, I think this whole conversation started because we were talking about social media and that sense of belonging, right? That requirement for us to be validated through a number, a like, a thumbs up, a thing. Um, and how it is, uh, in some ways eclipsing our ability to say, what do I think? What does Scott think? Scott thinks this. Cool, that's enough. I can stop with Scott, right? I can contribute to Janice, but I, I, you know, I'm enough. I am enough. And, and yeah, so I— it is a It is an ongoing unpacking and ongoing discovery. And I just find that, you know, the other leg of that is responsibility. So while I respect myself and I'm confident in myself, I have agreed to be responsible to someone else. How do I balance that?

Yeah. What that brings up for me is another, another edge that plays into all of this is trust. So, um, folks in my community know that I am a quote fanatic, and one of my very favorite quotes is from Goethe, and it is, as soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live. I've been chewing on that quote since I was, I, in, since I was a young teenager, and I have not extracted all the juice out of that yet. Um, and I think in some ways this conversation about worthiness from the inside out, you know, begins with, again, trust. You know, we trust the, you know, we can, we, we find ourselves able to trust other people. We find ourselves being able to trust processes. But if you you don't trust yourself enough to invest in yourself, uh, and your— and recognize your worthiness, um, you know, how can you continue to cultivate the things that we're all trying— I think that we're— we've been trying to, to, um, understand from the very beginning. I think from the very beginning of our ability to have conscious thoughts. We've been thinking, okay, so what does this mean? Like, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be happy? How do I be more of both? And I think a lot of that comes through the work that we do, whether that's the occupational or vocational work. And to remain, or to continue to toggle back and forth between sufficiency and striving and making a bigger, you know, becoming, better and doing better, uh, yeah, boils down to, you know, trusting, investing, recognizing the worthiness, uh, embracing curiosity and courage because things— these things might not work.

Yeah, I, you know, and, um, for everyone who is listening, I think that, as you said before we came on, worthiness is probably the center, the center of where we begin. Am I worth taking time? Am I worth spending you know, um, quality effort on increasing my value to myself first and foremost, my confidence in myself first and foremost, um, and investing in myself, which is why we call it self-investment. Because if we don't invest in our own well-being and who we are in our worthiness, then how do we give? How do we receive, actually, is really the question, right? How can we receive if we don't believe that we are worth whatever we are being given?

Yeah. Well, we managed to chew up a half hour and we could probably go, uh, at least another 30 minutes on this topic alone. We did go down a few rabbit holes, but I think we wove them all together in a way that, um, hopefully provided some value Janice, I just want one more time, want to remind folks where they can connect to learn more about you and the difference you're making at Bright Catalyst. That's brightcatalyst.com. It's always delightful to see folks at creativeonpurpose.com as well. Janice, if there was just one parting tip, lesson, bit of wisdom that you would extend to our viewers, that might help them cultivate and nourish a little more worthiness in themselves, what would that be?

Uh, give yourself time. We are so impatient with ourselves. You're so impatient. So impatient as we're learning. We're all in evolution and change. All these things that are happening around us. And so we don't give ourselves time, which is not valuing ourselves and not giving ourselves worth. So thank you. Yeah, um, thank you for giving me that opportunity. Thank you for inviting me. It's so exciting to see and be chatting with you again. I love it.

We have had a couple people, um, our friend Elizabeth Carmel, whose comment is not showing up in my feed for some reason, but it's on the LinkedIn page, and then my friend Natalia has been enjoying the, the conversation here. Um, just to piggyback one last thought on what you were just saying, patience is, is really, really important. And also, I think it's helpful to remind ourselves that it's usually, uh, uh, uh, small steps over an extended period of time that result in the biggest changes. Things very rarely change because we swung and hit a home run. A daily discipline of small steps into potential and possibility. You just can't even possibly know what will happen in a month, a year, or what have you. It also feels less dangerous. That's a way that you can build this discipline of cultivating worthiness. What's the next small step into potential and possibility you can take with and for yourself today? Janice, delightful to spend this time with you. And for those of you tuning in, please check out Janice at brightcatalyst.com. You can learn more about the ruckus we're making at creativeonpurpose.com, at creativeonpurpose.com. And we'll look forward to seeing some of you tomorrow when we have a conversation with Dom Mass. All right, Janice, thanks very much.

Thank you.