Coffee on Purpose - Kathy Motlagh

simple word together. For those of you that have not been introduced to me and my work, my name is Scott Perry. I am the author of Onward! and also Chief Difference Maker at Creative on Purpose. You can learn more about me and everything I'm up to at creativeonpurpose.com. Please, if you go there, go ahead and grab your 3-step antidote to burnout. And with that, I'm going to go ahead and turn things over to my friend Cathy. Cathy, tell everyone who you are, what you're up to these days, and where people can go to learn more about about you and the difference you're making.

Hi, Scott Perry. First of all, I wanted to thank you for having me on. I wanted to acknowledge you and the important work that you do. I'm Kathy Motlag. I'm the co-founder of Think Virtues, and we work on cultivating virtues from, from people ages 4 to 104. And as of late, we've been focusing on cultivating virtues in, in organizations and corporations.

Fantastic. Well, I am thrilled to be having this conversation with you for a lot of reasons. Kathy and I met recently at a presentation I gave to a group, and she reached out and said that, hey, I'd love to talk to you. And we had a really great conversation. We share a lot in common. And one of the things that we really align on is that virtues, values, and purpose and passion— these are things that are very, very at the center of both your work and my work. And we had a lot of similarity just in the way that we approach thinking about what those are and why they're important. So I would like to actually, Kathy, begin by the way I normally do on this broadcast, which is we're talking about virtues, but maybe we should define exactly what we mean by virtues, because I think it's a term, it's a simple word that is very easy to conflate with other terms and also easy to misunderstand. So when you're talking about virtues, how do you define what virtues are?

That's such a— I'm so glad that you're beginning this conversation this way because it's such a misunderstood word. Virtues, ver means man. And really virtues meant originally that we're referring to strength in men. Strength in men, women, humans. So we define it as all of our strong character traits and all of our positive emotions. So that's how we define it.

Really, really appreciate that distinction. And also good job on the etymology. As a former Latin award winner in high school, 4 times in a row.

Yay. I love that.

I'm always big on going all the way back with these terms. Before I put in my two cents, just wanted to give a shout out to Chris Campbell, who is tuning in and is excited to be here tuning into this conversation. Virtues have been something I've been thinking a lot about ever since I started Creative on Purpose, because I really have always believed that who you are is the place to start, and who you are is very much made up of your core beliefs, your core values, your core guiding principles. And once you get those dialed in alongside your human soft skills and hard skills, the things you learned in school and on the job, then you can start to align with and for the right people, people who share your values and need your talents to enhance their lives. And as I've been thinking more and more about this and employing tools like the Virtues in Action Character Strengths survey, I've kind of teased apart, you know, values are your core beliefs, these ideas that you try to live by. But virtues are your values in action. They are the, they are values as you live them. So while values may be a conversation we are more frequently having with ourselves, virtues are, virtues are things that other people can witness. And so, you know, if you are not living in accord with your values, because it's very clear to others, if not yourself, that you are not in alignment. And so what are some of the— just what are some of the tools, or what are some, some of the principles and practices for helping people identify virtues, maybe that they already possess, but also virtues that they aspire to live into, that, that you use at thinkvirtues.com? Kathy?

Well, we focus on bringing people to their authenticity. That's, that's really where you're at the correct pH balance to really live out and recognize your purpose, your values, and your virtues. So we, in the journey to, to our authenticity, the path to, to the power of authenticity, we identify our key virtues that we value most. And so that's one of the paths to it. But really educating people on what virtues are, how you practice it, how they show up for you. And when you do that, what it does is it gives people agency. And there's 9 profound outcomes when you actually equip people with, or bring them to a place where they recognize these resources that are inside all of us that we reach in and grab when we need them. So we, you know, things like it gives people a voice, it gives people choices, you know, all the wonderful things that you're aware of because you walk really, we really do similar things in getting people in touch with their virtues. It really increases engagement. It gives people the faculty to, and also a sense of responsibility A lot of wonderful things.

Yeah. When the terminology that we use at Creative on Purpose that feels like it would be authenticity in your approach, we talk about integrity, being in and of oneself and having alignment with, you know, so that who you are is, you know, in your, your core beliefs and your actions are, are integrated. That, and one of the things that really helped me as I was trying to dial in what I was going to do next and wanting very much to live my values out loud and in public and do meaningful work with and for more of the right people was to, well, you use the word agency, this idea of of seeing, stepping into, and staying in your power. And I think values and virtues really help us to do that. We, you know, we get empowerment and agency by being clear on who we are, what we stand for, what, you know, who we are not, what we do not stand for is also really, really important. So just love the, that idea that, you know, when you are paying attention to the virtues that you possess and the virtues that you're seeking to cultivate, you can start to live out loud and in public, not just, um, with purpose, but on purpose and for a purpose, uh, and that you'll naturally attract more of the right people because you are— they can see very clearly that you are living into and through and are all about your virtues.

So absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's a, it's, it's a great opportunity for people to, to, to really get on the same page when it comes to collaboration and teamwork. It really provides, you know, the, the whole notion of empowerment and, and knowing that you have these resources that you can tap into at any time is empowering, and without which you really get a sense of, you know, I don't have the confidence. Well, confidence is a virtue, you know, and there is a path to confidence, which is before that is competence, and before competence is courage. And all of these are virtues that you walk. So what you were saying, and I love what you were saying about We have our values and the focus in most organizations and people is, what are my values? But the virtues are how you walk your way and live out your values. So yeah, it's absolutely, it's an important topic to be discussing.

Well, I love those words that you just wove into the conversation around courage, competence, and confidence. And I would weave one more in that's really essential to the work that we do at Creative on Purpose, which is curiosity and maybe consideration as well. We live in an age right now that really seems to reward overconfidence, an unhealthy kind of hubris, and an unhealthy and actually untrue amount of certainty about things for which we can't Actually, no, uh, absolutely. I mean, if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that everything is actually uncertain and that almost everything is outside of our control. And the path to equanimity and a sense of thriving and flourishing while you do the impossible and difficult work of having, you know, doing meaningful work that has an impact on other people is to show up with, in the same way that you did as a child when you were trying to learn how to talk or to walk, a willingness to embrace that kind of challenging, impossible endeavor with a sense of playfulness, with a sense of curiosity, with a sense of wonder and awe, but also the rigor and the courage to do something badly until you can do it well. And I love what you were saying around, you know, this courage, competence, confidence idea, because confidence is something you earn. It's not something that you excavate. You can't like just wake up one day and say, you know what, today's the day, I'm confident, I'm gonna go do things I've never done before and do them perfectly. You do anything worthwhile poorly at first, and then you do it incompetently, or, you know, roughly, or, um, and, and eventually you step into competence and Confidence is earned every step of the way. And so one of the things that leaps to mind as a follow-up, Kathy, is how can we encourage— how do you encourage at Think Virtues? How do you encourage people to take that next smallest step into uncertainty, into it, you know, the inevitable challenges of living out loud and in public with your virtues, so that they can start to earn the competence and confidence that will help them take the next step into possibility?

By raising consciousness and awareness about the fact that they— that we actually have these resources. So raised consciousness is really the power of authenticity work is a raised— is a path to raised consciousness, raised awareness about the fact that these virtues are within all of us. We all have them. We all have access to them. It's just a matter of how we harness them. And once we come to that awareness, then that agency starts to take place. And all of the things that you said, creativity, curiosity, those are so important, so important in the process. Staying curious, not judgmental. Don't judge yourself. Don't criticize yourself. Just tune in. And see which virtues actually resonate with you. What are your virtues? What are your top virtues? And it's interesting when people take the time to go inside, the answers come out every time. But we're so focused on what's out there for me, who can help me. You know, it's, you know, we, our message is you can help yourself. And, uh, and here's how.

Yeah, I love that. I love that you wove consciousness in because this is a defining characteristic of being a human being. Uh, human beings are inherently, uh, have an inherent sense of reason. We doesn't mean that we act reasonably or rationally, but, um, and yes, you know, our capacity for rationality and reason is often used to rationalize our bad behaviors and bad ideas, but You know, at the same time, we also have the capacity to think about ourselves and our situation and to craft narrative that will— well, we have a choice. At any point, we can choose our story and thereby choose our future. Oftentimes, we are spinning cycles on an inner narrative based on past regrets or past mistakes or, you know, our unfortunate circumstances from, you know, our upbringing or childhood. And we allow those to continue to inform the the narrative that we're telling ourselves about the here and now and about ourselves, but also the future. Um, sometimes we're spinning narratives about, uh, the future that are unrealistic or maybe not very healthy. And at any moment, what I was hearing you say around this idea of consciousness— you also mentioned the word awareness— is we can actually ground ourselves in the here and now, the present, and we can mindfully think about ourselves and our situation in a way that's, that is more realistic and reasonable, that does put us, ourselves, in context, uh, and, and also takes into consideration the people that we find ourselves surrounded by in any given moment. And then we can make the reasoned choice, uh, around what we are going to do next. We can choose to tell ourselves, uh, a story about possibility. We can remind ourselves about our values, and we can live into those values by expressing or staying in integrity and stepping into what happens next with our virtues. And so one of the things that, that leapt to mind in terms of this consciousness piece, this awareness piece that you brought in, is that Awareness is the step that happens before you can pay attention, and you should be very considerate about what you do pay attention to. It's a finite resource. And then once you're paying attention to something, then you start to be able to give permission to the stories that you are going to tell yourself and the stories that you're going to let go of. And then you will cultivate the trust. Uh, and so my— I have to mention my favorite Goethe trope. Quote, "As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live." When you have the capacity to trust yourself and be grateful for all the opportunities and all the, the values and virtues and skills and habits that you already possess, then you can step into an even brighter future for yourself with and for the people that you find yourself with. That was a lot of words. I don't know if any of that—

beautifully, beautifully iterated, beautifully iterated. I'm on the same page. I, I 100% agree with everything you said because it is, it is that, uh, that awareness that gives rise to so many things that we talked about. Um, yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's, it's really about, uh, you know, tapping into your own resources. You know, we have We work with over 300 virtues that bring alive the values that you want to live out, your purpose, whatever your goals and dreams are, virtues are your path to it. And so becoming familiar with them and practicing them really serves us in a lot of meaningful ways, a lot of meaningful ways. And to equip children with that is is really setting them up for life, you know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, thank you for weaving that in because one of the things about our, about institutional learning and institutional work is they, they are divested themselves of the, the, the important work about what it means to be human, what it means to be happy and how you can become more of both. We never talk about values and virtues, um, that I, at least in my experience in, in most educational situations, lower or higher. And, you know, the way our workplaces are structured, we are often invited, tempted, and sometimes even ordered to do things out of a sense of expediency or efficiency that knock us completely out of alignment with who we really are and what we really believe and our virtues and our values. So For, for viewers that are, that are tuning in and saying, yeah, this all sounds good, but actually that won't work, you know, in my relationships, in, in the work that I do, uh, you know, in the company or the organization or the institution that, that I'm employed in, uh, what are some, some first steps that people can take for starting to think about and starting to unpack the virtues that they possess, the ones that they want to cultivate, and then start to behave in alignment with those things?

Well, thank you for that. That's a very important conversation because we hear that a lot. First of all, we have Think Virtues in our communities. We have worked successfully with children, educators, parents, professionals successfully for the last 35+ years, almost 36 years. So, and as Think Virtue since 2008. So, so successful in every way imaginable, you know, successful at home, successful in raising children, successful in, in achieving, accomplishing goals, um, and really living out your values. And so the, the advice that I would have is, is to really contemplate on the virtues that make sense for you. What's important to you and why? Why is this virtue important to you? And really get— when I say contemplate, I want to say meditate, but most people are familiar with contemplation more. But I always advise people to meditate on the virtues, how they make them feel, what are some of the things associated with that virtue, therefore making it more meaningful for them. So dialoguing, journaling, those is a great place to start.

Fantastic. I think Eddie is a friend of both yours and mine through the Revenue Climber network. And so you really just kind of addressed Eddie's question, but wanted to give him a quick hello and shout out. And also just one of the things I'm I'm wondering if there are tools that are available at Think Virtues. If people go to thinkvirtues.com, are there places they can go to start exploring a little bit more how they might start to approach virtue cultivation, but also just recognition in their lives?

Yeah, so our website is for informational purposes. Only at this point, but there's a lot of good information on our website, both on the professional side as well as the home extension where you can do the virtues work with the children at home and with families. Just direct message me on LinkedIn if you would like more information on how to exactly cultivate this in home and organizations, and I'm happy to answer it. But there's a lot of good information on our website right now where they can— there's a lot of blogs, about certain virtues. But virtues, I mean, people ask like, what are virtues? Virtues are virtues, just a list of virtues. Confidence is a virtue. Creativity is a virtue. Trust is a virtue. Humility is a virtue. Compassion is a virtue. Empathy is a virtue. So, you know, so you start to, you know, everything that we are trying to assertiveness, service, you know, there's so many wonderful virtues that you have access to that, you know, it's really important how you define it, why it's important to you, and how you want to see, how do you want to see it come to life for you, how you want to show up.

So, so yeah, well, I definitely strongly encourage folks to visit the thinkvirtues.com site. There are some fantastic articles in the blog and lots of information throughout the website. If you're interested in accessing tools where you can start to unpack your values and virtues at creativeonpurpose.com. When you opt in for the 3-Step Antidote to Burnout, you will also get an invitation to get a free copy of the Creative on Purpose Handbook, which has specific tools and exercises where you can start to think about your values and virtues. One, one last thing that I want to highlight based on what you just said, Kathy, that people can take with them without having to go to either website is, you know, When you're thinking about virtues, oftentimes I find— and I'll be curious to hear your experience— you know, if we're left to our own devices and we just think about virtues on our own, we always see ourselves much more virtuously than maybe we actually behave out in the world. And so this, these kind of conversations, this kind of work can really be enhanced by, you know, getting together with friends, fellow travelers, family members, you know, who are invested in your journey and encouraging and supporting, you know, each other around this kind of work. Other tips for folks that, you know, might want to get, get started with this, but might want to avoid some of the pitfalls of getting started on your own with virtues assessment?

Yeah, I mean, that's why we have the tools that we have. I mean, the Mentorship Toolkit really gives— people do need the ideas, the different ideas. From various books. I've been studying virtues for 20 years, and I continue to learn every day from people like yourself. I mean, I learned a lot from the conversation that we had one-on-one. And so I think it's a very important point that you bring up. The first place I started was reading Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, and I really encourage people to read those, the texts of the past because they're filled with wisdom and knowledge on contemplation, correct contemplation, and really stay away from judgment. This work is not about judgment. It's not about who's more virtuous than other because we all have the same virtues. We all have access to the same. And so really staying away from self-judgment and really being curious, to your point, and really doing more and more reading and, and, and understanding what, what these are.

Yeah, I totally agree that going back to ancient philosophical and spiritual traditions where these are— all these ideas were kind of simultaneously being explored all over the globe without any real, you know, connection to each other. So, you know, the Axial Age when Greece and Rome, uh, you know, was philosophers were wrestling with these ideas, but spiritual traditions like Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism and Muslimism and all these, you know, they were all wrestling with the same question. What does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be happy? How do I become more both? And it is surprising to read how much alignment and intersection there is as to where each tradition arrived. And so for me, Marcus Aurelius' Stoic philosophy, his meditations, which is contemplations, notes to himself, reminding him to keep himself in context and to keep himself on track and in alignment with his virtues and human characteristics is another great place to start. Well, Cathy, it has been really— I had high expectations for this conversation. You have certainly delivered and even overdelivered. We could talk about virtues, I'm guessing, for hours on end, but we want to be mindful of our time and everyone else's time. If you just had one final tip, if someone is tuned into this conversation, either live or in replay, and is starting to think, yes, this is, this is an area of my life that I could really stand to use some more development, what is one final question or practice or principle, one nugget of wisdom that you would share for them to help them get started?

Yeah, that's a very— that's, that's very important right now, particularly post-pandemic. And as we're living through this, this journey that we're all going through, I think the most important virtue to practice is actually a couple of them is self-love, self-unconditional love, and self-empathy. Because we've all been through a lot. And, you know, just standing in our own judgment and criticism doesn't serve us. Being kind to ourselves allows us, fills us up enough to show up that way for others. So I really encourage people to practice unconditional self-love.

I love that. To which I'll just add, all of these virtues that we've mentioned, and when Kathy talks about empathy and compassion and these things, these are things that you live from the inside out. And when you do that, they become a virtuous cycle. You are putting out the abundance and the excess and doing— sharing this with and for other people. You will get back far more than you give. So it's a very renewable and virtuous cycle of applying these ideas to your lives. Kathy, thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom today. For those of you that are watching in replay or, um, or or live now. Please remember to check out Cathy's work at thinkvirtues.com. It's always great to see you as well at creativeonpurpose.com. Now take the insight and inspiration from this conversation and fly a little bit higher in the difference only you can make. Cathy, thanks so much for your time.

Thank you, Scott Perry. It's a pleasure to be with you always.