Creative on Purpose Live - Coffee on Purpose with Sophy Yohannon

Here we go.

Hey, we're a little bit late, but you know, better late than never. Welcome everybody to another episode of Coffee on Purpose. Apologies for our late arrival. There was some digital snafu going on. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, especially when people are playing with Microsoft Edge. I'm just saying.

Technical difficulties.

That's right. But we are here now. My name is Scott Perry. I am Chief Difference Maker at Creative Our Purpose. This is an episode of Coffee on Purpose, where I get together and have a caffeinated conversation with a Difference Maker that inspires me. And we are here to just unpack a word or an idea as it might apply broadly to difference-making. I am delighted to have my friend Sophie Johannan here with me today, and we're here to talk about mentorship. So Sophie, before we dive in, just give our viewers a sense of who you are, what you're up to these days, and where people can go to learn more about you and the difference you're making.

Thank you. So my name is— my full name is Mary Sophie Ohanan. I go by my middle name, which is Sophie. So thank you for that. You know, I think that's one thing I'll start off. Identity is really important, knowing people's names and their backgrounds and being genuinely curious about what they do, what they're passionate about, what makes them tick is very important to me. And it's, I think for me, the first step towards a successful mentorship is relationships, relationship building. And it's not of, one-story building, right? There are multiple floors and it's an ongoing process. So I am currently a clinical evaluation scientist at a large medical device company called Boston Scientific. I have been in the clinical research space for over 18 years and before that in different roles and different therapeutic areas, um, cardiology and oncology and gynecology, neurology, psychiatry, and integrative medicine before that. So I— it took me a while to find my niche, I think, and I think I'm here. So why is mentorship important to me? Um, I've had so many mentors in my career along the way. I still have— I have one right now, and I'm sure I'll always have one. Um, so I think it's really important to pass on what we learn I think in past generations, you know, that has been a natural thing where from one generation to the next, wisdom and knowledge is passed on. And from one— from a senior to a junior, or to someone more— from someone more experienced to less experienced, these things are naturally passed on. But I found recently that it's not so natural anymore. It's become awkward and we've become disconnected and it becomes, we have to go searching for a mentor and we have to really scratch and claw to find someone who's willing to spend some time with us. And I think as I get older, I start thinking about this, that if we don't pass on our knowledge as we're learning, as we're becoming an expert, in something, at the end of this life, what have we done, right? You know, it's finite, you know. So if we don't pass on our knowledge, where's the value in everything that we've done? Everything is limited. So I think it's really important to pass on that knowledge, to pay it forward and give freely. And I think time, our time is probably one of the most valuable commodities. So that's something I believe in very passionately, and that's why I host a mentorship discussion forum within an audio-only social media app called Clubhouse. I started that this year, and it's very important to me.

Yeah, I love it. I love this topic because it's— I think often about, you know, like, what's the difference between mentorship, coaching, teaching, you know, and, and I also think that in any of those kind of roles, which, you know, sometimes are conflated and confused with each other, and I think they're they are different. But in any of those roles, there's kind of the formal variety, and then the informal variety. So I'm just curious, like, I mean, I'm happy to kick off, but like, when you think about like, how is mentorship different than a coaching relationship or a teaching relationship? How do you see, how do you see the difference?

For me personally, I see mentorship as more of a two-way street, whereas instruction or coaching is— it could be two-way, but very often it's one way. I'm also an instructor for a company called Clinical Research Fast Track. I'm a clinical research instructor and coach there. So that's a very different dynamic. Where I have a bunch of students, and I am lending my experience, my background knowledge of what I've been through in research to the curriculum they're learning as they're moving forward. So it's more of a one-way relationship. And sure, I get something out of that relationship. I can see them grow. I see them learn. I see them advancing. That's feeling me, but there isn't a fully two-way learning pathway that way. Whereas with mentoring, you can be the mentor or the mentee, and you can learn from each other. It doesn't have to be a one-way, you know, an instructor teaching someone. You can be trading skills, you can be trading talents, you can be filling each other's holes. And that's what I find so fascinating and valuable about mentorship. Sometimes I meet someone much younger than me who is looking for a mentor, and most of the time during my interactions with this person, I end up learning a lot more than I planned, a lot more than the mentee thinks I might learn. Because new people, especially a lot of young people entering the workforce now, come in with a very different perspective than I did, you know, when I started. A fresh perspective. And they have— technology is kind of second nature to them. They wouldn't have had this difficulty that I had getting onto the platform. So I learn a lot just from that perspective. I try to stay open and willing to receive. And that's why I think mentorship is such a rich relationship, a rich process, if you stay open.

Yeah, I think that at their best, all three relationships borrow from each other. I think I've written about— I see that You know, instruction is when someone has access to information or insight and they are dripping it out to you, you know, through some sort of curriculum.

Yeah.

And in the internet age, you know, where all the information is kind of available, instruction is not as valuable as it used to be, which is maybe why so many people are deciding that they're done, kind of done with formal education. Education, especially advanced education, you know, teaching like coaching and like the way that you're describing mentorship at its best bakes in this element of, of accompaniment of being, doing the work with, with each other, with and for each other. And that there's this component of learning by doing.

Yes.

I just— last week, as I was thinking about this subject, and this conversation with you, I had an interesting exchange in LinkedIn through private message where someone, you know, roughly my age, who was really resonating with some of the things that I was sharing on LinkedIn said, hey, I would love for you to be my mentor. And I asked, like, what does that mean? And it turned out that what he really wanted was free coaching, as opposed to, you know, and that's— and I think that sometimes mentoring gets a bad rap because we— because people approach it that way. Like, I can't afford coaching, or I can't I don't have access to teaching, so I will get a trusted advisor, an elder or what have you, mentor me. And I don't think that that's a very healthy way to make progress. Like, you know, if you're going to be in— if you're going to get from where you are to where you want to be, you have to have stakes. You have to have something invested in the relationship.

Yes. Yes, exactly. And I've talked about this in my room, the discussion room, mentorship discussion room, is that it has to be a two-way street when it's mentorship. The mentor has to get something out of it as well as the mentee. It's not instruction. It's not the same as— I mean, there are some overlaps, like you said, of course, there are some overlapping, there is some imparting of knowledge that comes from the mentor to the mentee, sure. But it's more experiential, right? It's more situational. It's not textbook. It's not instructional. It's not a one-way street. So the mentee has to do the work, and we talked about this in the discussion room. The mentee has to do the work, and what's coming from the mentor is more like guidance, you know, a pathway, a steering a little bit of steering, you know. So if you have the background, if you as a mentee have the background to do what you need to do, achieve your goals, and you have the time to invest, and you have, you have the basic skills, but you need some direction, you need some steering along the way, that's what a mentor is for. Someone to kind of guide you along the way, someone to check in with maybe once a month or once a week or whatever arrangement you, you come up with, um, to see, does that make sense? Is your, is your pathway making sense? How does it align with my pathway? You know, a lot of times people choose mentors who have traveled that path before, you know, so it doesn't mean both paths have to be exactly the same. You know, but if you are veering far away from the path, you know, your mentor will be able to tell you that. So that's the value of a mentor. It's definitely not instructional. And I think a lot of mentees really forget that, that this is not instruction. And, you know, they have to value the mentor's time. And expertise, especially, you know, if this is not, um, you know, a business, we are just offering our expertise or giving our experience or advice to someone who is coming up in the same path and we're trying to share our experience. Yeah, the, the mentor's time should really be valued and considered when questions are posed or when meetings are scheduled It has to be, you know, I think the structure, the schedule, and the kind of homework should be done by the mentee.

Yeah. Well, and another thing that bubbles up for me in thinking about, you know, the best versions of this that I've experienced, whether it's men being, being a mentor or being mentored, being coached or being or coaching, being a teacher or being taught, is that it has— there's, there's, there's recognition of where someone is, recognition of where they want to be, and then unpacking together what's really in the way and holding space and actually creating like the empathetic, generous tension that helps the person seeking guidance to arrive at their own truth. So it's very— it's not very helpful, you know. So, so often I, I see coaching, mentoring, and teaching done poorly, which is, you've got a problem, I'm going to give you the solution. You're—

no, I'm going to fix you.

This is, you know, you need— you, you don't know where you're going, I'm going to give you a map. And I think at its best coaching, teaching, and mentoring is, I see, hear, and understand where you are and where you want to be. Let's build a compass and teach you how to use it so that you can find your own way through the obstacle that you probably put in your own way.

Yes.

I haven't seen it that way.

Sometimes it's just reflection. Right. A lot of times, I would say at least 50% of the time, a mentor is just a mirror. Reflecting back the goals, the obstacles, the talents, the skills, everything that the mentee has already in his or her tool bucket. And how to put those tools and those puzzle pieces together and make sure that we are on time, we're on track. It's kind of like, for anyone who has joined Weight Watchers, you know, we count calories and all those things, measure the food. It's not anything that we don't know. There isn't, you know, some new incredible knowledge that's being imparted. It's just holding you accountable and giving you a direction, a schedule, and a pathway, you know, just something to follow. So you're not on your own trying to get through the forest, right?

Yeah. Well, there's a term. So back in 2019, right before the pandemic, you know, hit here in the United States, my wife and I participated in Chip Conley's Modern Elder Academy. And one of the things that they talk about there is the concept of mentorship. And so what— and I don't think it's necessarily Chip's terminology, but he certainly, um, has been a, an exponent of it. It's this idea of combining mentor-mentee relationships with the idea of being an intern, someone that is, you know, again, learning by doing. And I really love that kind of framing because it it clarifies that, um, that idea of accompaniment and doing, and that work is going to be done. Not just, not just wisdom imparted, not just advice being imparted, but, um, that you're, you're, you're solving an interesting problem together.

Yes.

It requires that you both put forth some time, attention, and effort into doing that.

Yeah, absolutely. Most internships even in the old-fashioned or original traditional definition of the term, when you are an intern, usually you don't know everything there is to know to do that job, right? So you're learning along the way. How are you learning? Somebody has to mentor you, right? Somebody with more experience, more knowledge, more seniority has to guide you along the way. And then you do it. And as you do it, you learn more and you get more proficient and more confident. And so there's sometimes mentoring happening without people knowing about it, right? So I like the idea of a mentee taking the initiative, right? If a mentee reaches out to you and says, I would love for you to be my mentor, that's a good first because the mentee took the initiation. Okay, what is a mentor to you? What do you want to get out of this? What is your schedule? What is your goal? And what can you put into it? What can you invest? What are you bringing to the table? And then what kind of time and skills can you invest into it? You know, is my question whenever someone asks me to be their mentor. Because it should— the initiation and the drive should come from the mentee. You know, and I fill in where I have some experience or I have some knowledge that I can impart. Or if I see them going off a little bit in the wrong direction, I might guide them, but I'm not going to force them. I can tell them what I think, and then that person has to decide, yes, I'm going to move back to this direction, or no, I'm going to continue along this path. That's still up to them, right?

So just a couple quick, uh, we have some folks tuning in on the various channels. So we're appearing on YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn simultaneously. So Ankit is appreciating what he's hearing, uh, over there on YouTube. And I think Meredith is a mutual friend, um, who is a big supporter of the work that we're doing here. We— Meredith and I had a really interesting conversation on a Monday about improvisation. She's a genius expert at bringing, weaving that into the work that you're doing. I love what I love about that idea of mentorship is that level of, of investment and accountability.

Accountability. Yes.

And so it's just For me, that, that's an even more powerful framing. And just to give people some, you know, pragmatic advice, practical advice for like, if they're, they're listening to this conversation, and they're thinking, oh, you know, I, I am actually a person that would probably benefit from seeking a mentor, or I am someone that feels that I might be able to invest some time in being a mentor. What's— what would you say are pragmatic kind of first steps? How does someone that seeks a mentor go about finding the— a mentor, the best mentor, or at least an all right mentor for right now? And if someone on the other side has time and a willingness to invest, how can they present themselves to more of the right people that, that might be looking for the kind of mentorship they they can provide?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good question. I think the best place to start is your place of employment or your school or university or college, because that's where you already have relationships, right? And I, that's what I said in the beginning, relationships are the most important first step, that relationship building. So reaching out to your If you're at a company, a corporate environment, reaching out to your ERGs, your employee resource groups, is one good way to look for a mentor. If you're at a college or university or school, you know, they have guidance for that and probably multiple branches where you can, where you can look. The other, we talked about formal versus informal, right? So the other place you can look is, you know, within your own context. Sometimes you have mentors that you've been talking to and interacting with on a daily basis and you don't even know it. But if you find someone who seems to have that knowledge or experience or wisdom that you wish you had, approach that person. Just like someone approached you, Scott Perry, and asked you, I would like you to be my mentor. That's another good way. If you looked in my LinkedIn profile, you'll see a lot of posts after my mentorship room. After every mentorship room, I post all the learning that we gather together, and I've structured the room very similar to how I consider mentorship to be a two-way street. And it's, it's a gathering of of people sharing their knowledge. It's not one person, it's not one direction, it's back and forth. And so all the learning that we've gathered, accumulated in that room is posted on LinkedIn in my profile. We have a lot of links there to mentorship opportunities. I am a mentor for the National Junior Humanities and Science Symposium. So that is run by the US military for gifted high school students who are interested in STEM careers and looking for people in STEM who are already in STEM careers, professionals, to kind of mentor them through that symposium process. And I didn't search for this, you know, someone reached out to me and said, you look like you would be someone good for this this role? Would you be interested? You know, sometimes once you start and you, you reach out for a role, if you're interested in being a mentor, you have some time to give. Once you reach out for one or volunteer your time for one, it kind of makes connections to other avenues and becomes like a spider web of opportunity. So I would say just get started.

There you go, some good advice from Andrea that for small business owners starting with a small development, small business development center. That's a great suggestion. The thing that I guess I would say is start where you are with what you have and who you already know. So, you know, I think oftentimes when people are thinking about like, oh, I, I'm ready to level up in whatever enterprise or endeavor you want to level up in, and I have to find the right mentor, the right coach, the right teacher. And, you know, it prevents us from getting started by just going ahead and getting going with an all right mentor.

Exactly right now.

So, you know, these, these relationships are not marriages. Like, one of the things I love to say to my clients is, you know, I'm thrilled to be your coach for now. I certainly don't want to be your coach forever because that would be evidence that I'm not very good at my job. My job is to get as far as I can help you get, and then it will be time for you to find, find your next coach. And I've developed that mostly, um, during my years as a guitar teacher, where I would see over time, like, students just continuing to take lessons because we had, like, this personal relationship, but it wasn't really moving the needle in terms of their performing anymore, or their technique or training. And I would say, oh, you know, I think, I think we're done. Like, I think I've taken you as far as I can take you, and I can refer you to this person, that person, or maybe it's just time for you to take what you know and have, have fun. Um, or maybe even try your hand at teaching what, what you've already been taught. So I just, yeah, I think there's, there's value in that. The other is to not, um, to, to, to— some of my greatest mentors are people I have never met, people that are, um, historical figures whose, you know, journal, diary, biography I've, I've, I've read, or people that I really only know through their content that they put out digitally. But I, I am able to use that and leverage that as if they were a mentor. I just call them my virtual mentors. And another way to think about that is like, who are your heroes? You can, you can learn a lot from just paying attention to how the people that you seek to be more like engaged with the, their challenges and their path in terms of making progress in their endeavor.

Absolutely. I think I did something very similar with someone in the, in the clinical research space. When I was certified in 2011, I started following this person and she was a leader in our local chapter. So I used to follow her work and her recommendations and she, she put out some podcasts and some recordings from her seminars and I would watch and then I met her in between but very briefly, and then in 2019 I finally had a chance to work with her, and I told her, by the way, you've been my mentor since 2011, unbeknownst to you, because I've been following your work and your recommendations and your advice, and thank you so much, you know, for all— everything that you share. And after that, of course, our relationship changed a bit, the dynamic deep end, probably a little bit. But yeah, I can absolutely see how that's valuable. And some of us do it without even realizing it.

Well, as our half hour together is coming to an end, Sophie, I'm— if someone has been listening to this conversation and recognizes that in their desire to fly a little bit higher and the difference only they could make, they could actually use, you know, some sort of mentor, coach, teacher, some relationship that will help them step into their potential and deliver on their promise. What would, what would your advice be in terms of like, what's, what's the next step that they can take after, after this conversation ends?

I would encourage you to come join my mentorship room in Clubhouse because we have people from multiple different professions in there and it's been amazing how people meet each other just by listening. The great thing about Clubhouse, um, that I like to say, it's, it's the great leveler because you can only hear, you can't see each other. So we can't judge each other based on what we're wearing or what we look like, or we can only judge each other based on the passion in our voices, what we're, you know, concerned with, what we're talking about, and you can tell if someone is an expert in their field by the way they're speaking, right? So I find it so helpful, and from there people have branched off and found mentors even within their own institution where they work they hadn't thought of before, you know. So I would start with, you know, where you are, come to the mentorship room, look at my posts in LinkedIn. And there are also multiple government websites depending on what field you're in to look for a mentor, intern, mentorship. That was great. So yeah, I would start with what you know, start with where you're connected, but really know what you want. Know who you are, know what you want, where you're going, and how you think you're going to get there. And that pathway might change, but have a plan first before you, before you approach a mentor, because the initiation should start from the mentee.

That's really, really good advice. I love this conversation, Sophie, and really appreciate the work that you're doing in this space. I highly recommend joining Sophie's Clubhouse room. I understand that there's going to be someone that looks a lot like me in conversation.

Make sure you join on December 2nd. We are having a whole star lineup on December 2nd, including you, Scott Perry. It's going to be fun.

It is going to be really fun. I love these kind of conversations. I love the kind of— this, I call this empathetic antagonism. These conversations that get under your skin in a good way, that make you scratch an itch that maybe you hadn't realized you needed to scratch. If you have an inkling that you're capable of being and doing more and better with more of the right people, I would say that that is true. And mentorship is one of many levers that you can start to tug on that will help you ratchet your forward progress. So really appreciate this conversation, Mary Sophie. Check her out on LinkedIn. It's always great to see you as well at Creative on Purpose. And, uh, yeah, thanks so much. We'll see you very, very soon.

Thank you.