Creative on Purpose Live - Conor McCarthy

Position, fasten your seatbelt. We are— bingo! Live once again. Against all expectations, we are live. Welcome to Creative on Purpose Live. These conversations are about flying higher and the difference only you can make. I'm your host, Scott Perry, author of Onward! and A Compass Helping Difference Makers Live Their Legacy. You can learn more at creativeonpurpose.com. This season, we're drawing insight and inspiration from guests successfully embracing uncertainty, navigating adversity, and making things better doing work that matters. Welcome Welcome to today's guest, Conor McCarthy. I cannot talk today. Conor, please tell our viewers who you are, what you're up to these days, and where can they go to connect and learn more about you and the difference you make.

Hi, Scott. Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me on. It's really exciting. I've been looking forward to this for a while now. I do a couple of things. So, I host a podcast called The First 10 Podcast. I interview people on their first 10 customers, who they were, how they found them, how they talked to them, and what difference it made to their business.. I also have my own startup called Subscription Club. So we help people put their products online as a subscription service. That's available at subscription.club. I also do some blogging. That's all over at the URL which you've put on the screen there, conormcCarthy.me. And I, for what it's worth, I used to be a software engineer. I used to run one of the biggest live events in Ireland. So checkered past, like a lot of people these days have, yourself included, Scott. But that's, that's what I'm up to right now.

Well, none's more checkered than mine. That said, there's, there's one piece of your bio that, that I'm aware of that you didn't highlight. And maybe it was on purpose, but I'm gonna peel back the curtain anyway. So Conor and I are connected through Seth Godin's Alta MBA program, but also are both coaches in, well, Conor in Alta MBA and Akimbo Workshops, and me in Akimbo Workshops. And I guess that is a way of leading us back to what you shared first, which is the First 10 podcast, which, uh, is one of my favorite ideas, concepts that Seth Godin teaches. So for those that might not be familiar with what that term means or what the implications of that term are, just what, what is, what is First 10? And just how did you come upon the brilliant idea of crafting a podcast around that?

Sure. So, the first 10 customers to me on a very literal level, it's about when you have an idea for a business and you think this could be a thing. I mean, one of the most important things you have to do is bring it out to the world. And there's even to unpack that a little bit. That can be a moment, as we both know, that is fraught with all kinds of feelings, imposter syndrome, overthinking things, you know, just to actually show your idea, maybe something that you've been thinking about for months or years, to put it in a form format to package it up and say to someone, here, I made this. I'm not actually sure if it's good or great or nothing, but I'm willing to show it to you. I'm willing to reach across the aisle and say, what do you think of it? So that's often the first customer, if you like. But the first 10 customers, I suppose, was a part of the entrepreneurial process that I think is fascinating because it's different for everyone. And even if two people are launching a product or service in the same industry or the same vertical, their journeys to get there will be totally different. And the people you meet early on in the journey have really a huge effect on what your product or service becomes, and ultimately who you become because of that. Because it's not until we bring something out into the world, into the cold light of day, and get feedback on it— and it's usually very generous feedback from those first customers— that we actually get to see what we have. You know, you and I coach people all the time. And one of the joys of coaching has been being able to highlight a blind spot that someone might have and to help them see those blind spots. And when it comes to launching our own projects and our own products and services, we often have our own blind spots that other people can help us, can reveal to us. So it's a really, I think it's a great part of the process. It's almost like, I'm not sure if there's any other part for most entrepreneurs that has such a big effect. And I think just talking to entrepreneurs about those, you get these really interesting stories as well because people, you know, people are talking to their family members or their friends, and often it's the people they're the most scared to approach. And so for that reason, there's a lot of talk about overcoming fears.

Yeah, well, I know that it was an idea that completely changed the game for me in terms of moving my enterprise from this wonderful idea that was fun to play with in my head and to blog about, broadcast about, that was also, uh, in many ways a very expensive hobby in, in terms of, of, um, time and attention and money, to becoming a sustainable enterprise that could pay for itself and actually provide profits. And the, the leap seems to be— it's one thing to connect your idea, your product, your service with 10 people that express interest. It's another to get 10 paying customers, to get 10 people to say, I am not only, um, giving you permission to and providing trust in your idea, but I'm actually enrolling and investing in the journey that you want to take me on. Um, and the idea that if you can get 10 people to do it, then you probably have something that's worth, uh, putting more of your time and, uh, attention equity into to leverage and to scale and to amplify and turn into a bigger, stronger offering.

Yeah.

Of all the stories that you've heard on the podcast about people who either did or did not get their first 10 with their brilliant idea, are there any that really stand out as, you know, being profoundly interesting or surprising?

Early on in the first season, I interviewed a guy I met on Twitter. His name was Ryan Doyle. And he was in the middle of building, and he's still building it out, he's in the middle of building a software service called Magic Sales Bot. So it's kind of like an AI-powered sales platform. And he was on customer number 3. And we had this really interesting discussion because he was like,. And he was looking back. If you listen to it now, you'd hear it like he was, he had so much energy in him. But he was also super, super open to all the feedback that was coming his way. And by his own admission, he was getting so much stuff wrong. But he was getting a few things right. And he was able to leverage those, those things, both those things, to making the product or the service better all the time. So finding the conversations that I've only had a couple with people who are actually in their first 10. Is fascinating because by the time they reach 10 from 3 or 4, there's a very good chance that what they're doing or the way they think about it has changed an awful lot. You know, even when I look back on the first 10 customers of businesses that I've started in the past, over time, they're kind of, I suppose, the stories of those first 10 customers, they change slightly. They kind of, I suppose, they lose the the frantic energy, I want to say, of what it felt like in the moment. Because at the moment, it can be fraught. It's a feeling of this has to work. You know, this is my big idea. This is something I've had close to my heart for so long. Or, you know, this is something I've poured a lot of time and energy into. And this, you know, this has to work. So there's, yes, there's worry, but there's also hope. And it's such a great moment for people to talk about because I think it brings out the human aspect of starting a new business. And entrepreneurship and developing relationships, which is really ultimately, for me anyway, I think the relationships is what it's all about. That's, it's the kind of, I think it's the whole reason we're doing any of this.

Yeah, that's really the human element is, I'd love to just tug on that thread just a little bit more because one of the things that I know that with my clients that I'm, most of whom are engaged in some sort of freelancing entrepreneurial endeavor that's maybe just beginning or succeeding, but not succeeding quite enough is my, one of my first encouragements is who do you already know? Like rather than build this long chain of, I need to earn your awareness. I need to earn your attention. I need to earn your permission. I need to earn your trust. I need you to take an action that leads to enroll. You know, it's this long causal chain that's very prone to breaking. Many times along the way, if you can go to people that already know, like, and trust you, you've bypassed 5 or 6 of those steps and you're really just down to the enrollment investment piece. But that is, that's when things get very real and to use your word, very fraught, because now you're putting yourself, you're standing up to be seen, speaking up to be heard, putting yourself on the hook and saying, You know, to your point, I made this, I made this for you.

Yeah.

And of course, there is, there is, you know, the— well, there's two things. Some people say three things. They'll say yes, no, or maybe, but maybe means no. So it's really just yes or no. And many people will say no. So, you know, that, that, that there's a real opportunity there to practice the real skills, the human skills, the soft skills, whatever you want to call them. You know, which can be— just curious as to your thoughts, and based on your experience and your conversations. And you alluded to this a little bit already, but, you know, the clarifying power of focusing on real human beings, those first 10 who you know by name, you know, who you know, by all their demographics and most of their psychographics. How do you see that as a way of clarifying your enterprise, but also helping create a deeper level of commitment and connection?

Yeah, yeah, this is super important. I'm really glad you brought this up because I often meet entrepreneurs and freelancers and people starting their own their own venture. And there's a feeling of, I need to start a social media account, I need a blog, I need a newsletter, I need the presence, I need to build— it's almost like build a world to describe what I'm doing before really understanding, well, who is the person who's going to land on that planet and look around and go, oh, I like it here, this is something for me. So the idea of of reaching out. And I mean that in the physical sense, like who is at arm's length that you can get in touch with? It might be your mom, it might be your brother, it might be your brother-in-law. It's the people that you can have real conversations with is the most important thing. I often recommend to people that they literally pick up their phone and they go to the phone book, which most of us don't use anymore, and just start scrolling and make a list. If you can get 10 names out of your phone book, You're on the way. You know, it can be as simple as that. Other places, obviously, people go to LinkedIn or Facebook, etc. But again, not with the intent of building a marketing machine. That comes later. I think marketing is best done when you understand who these people are, when you understand what problem that you're helping to solve for them, when you understand their needs, when you understand how they talk about their needs. Then the marketing bit comes in. So it's very much I know sales can be a dirty word, but it's very much, I suppose, the part of sales that's about serving other people. And to properly serve, you really need to have those conversations with the people who are closest to you and not be afraid about it. There's a, you know, I think I often say this to people, and I only realized it too late in life. It was like, your greatest, greatest superpower starting out with a business is that people want to help you. Like, everyone wants to help. If you were approached in the next 5 minutes by someone saying, can I just take 10 minutes of your time to discuss my new idea or something, you'd say absolutely. You know, people want to help you. The paradox, because most things in life have a paradox at their core, the paradox of that is that people won't want to lie to you. And this is maybe a separate part of the discussion which we can get into if you'd like about, you know, how do you have a conversation with someone that makes sure that they are, I suppose, being as honest as they can be. Because people might, you know, you bring your new idea to them, they kind of, they don't want to let you down. They want to break your heart. So they might say, absolutely, I would buy this. Yeah, you go away and build this and thumbs up, keep going. That sounds great.

Yeah, well, that's, I think that's why it's, I found it to be really important with, you know, the first 10, applying the first 10 principle is to You know, before I would even create the product or service, I would create the landing page with a Buy Now button and actually put a dollar figure on it. And it could be, you know, early bird pricing or beta pricing or initial launch pricing or whatever it is, but people had to purchase it. And if I got 10 purchases, then I would build the thing. And the idea is, you know, you are promising something that can be built in a day or a weekend, not, not a brick and mortar, you know, you're not building a university.

Yeah.

You know, but because I think one of the things about the First 10 is it's related to this idea of the smallest viable audience. And if you can offer the smallest viable audience a smallest viable offering and take a smallest viable step with them, you're valid. You're, it's this virtuous cycle of validation. And sustainability. And both of those things are really important. You have to validate the idea, but the idea also has to be self-sustaining. And then you can amplify the things that work and leverage the things that work, and you can tweak or toss away the things that don't work. The other— so what you're saying about the piece, you know, where people you know, people may like certain things, and— but you'll also receive like this, you know, feedback that, uh, about the things that, you know, people don't like. And what's your experience with just— or any tips or, um, advice for accepting feedback, like being open to your example earlier, to, you know, be— being a person that's open to hearing both kinds of feedback and not letting negative feedback or, you know, counter feedback that goes against, you know, what your dreams and desires are, you know, so that you don't get discouraged or dissuaded in your endeavor.

That's, you know, feedback, giving and receiving feedback are two vital soft skills, you might say. But they are, you know, they are kind of a muscle that you need to build. So in receiving feedback in the sense of the first 10, it's always about framing that as a learning experience. Because there is, if you feel yourself, I suppose, if you feel yourself getting your back up about some piece of feedback, that's worth questioning. Because in reality, you're only really learning if it, if If you tell someone your idea and it's not for them, okay, maybe there's a chance that it just wasn't for that person. It doesn't mean it's a bad idea. If you tell 10 people and they all give you the same piece of feedback, ding, ding, ding, that is, that's amazing that you've just learned something really important. So then you can kind of go, okay, maybe my main idea, and this takes a bit of humility, my main idea isn't working, but I could definitely shift it. Because there's something here that I understand, or there's something that I'm trying to put out into the world that I feel strongly enough about to go and talk to 10 people. But it isn't quite right. And ultimately, you need to know this stuff early on. And this is, again, the magic of the first 10 windows. You can learn so much in this short space of time that will pay dividends down the line. It's a compound interest thing. The things you learn early on, if you get them right, if you solidify those learnings and you're building in the right place and solving the right problem, That's the solid foundation. Then you, to your point, you kind of, you get to see what works and you get to leave off what doesn't work. So I suppose being gracious with all feedback is treating it as data. You know, it's good data ultimately. And seeing it, that's what it's for. It's not like they don't like you or they don't like your product. They just don't see where exactly it fits for them.

Well, I think that is a really important point worth amplifying, is, is feedback. If you're taking feedback personally, you don't understand what feedback really is. Um, and so being able to separate yourself from your product or service or from your brilliant idea, um, and not have your worthiness invested in whether people like or don't like your idea. The other thing that came up for me is, just remembering back to the early days, is solicited feedback versus unsolicited feedback. You know, I think you can weigh those differently. And that doesn't mean to say that unsolicited feedback can't really be valuable. It's just that it can, it can be difficult to kind of see the virtue, you know, when somebody is providing you negative feedback and you haven't even asked for their opinion. But the The, the trick that I learned early on was my response to any feedback was always the same. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective with me, because that was a way of acknowledging the generosity that was just extended. This person is providing me feedback because they think that it will be helpful, and whether it is or not, their intention was good. And it allowed me to put a pause if I was feeling any anxiety around, you know, the perceived negative quality of that feedback. I could like, you know, "Thank you. I'm going to think about that for a little while." And then I could think about it for a little while. And sometimes I would see the virtue in what they were saying. And sometimes I say, "Actually, I don't think they were either not the right person or they didn't understand fully what I was trying to share." So just some additional thoughts there.

And there's so little information in a straight no. And you always have that, to your point, like to build on the kind of like, "Thank you. That's really useful for me to get this no. But the classic thing, but why do you say that? Like, why? And to do that in a, I suppose, to frame that as a, I'm not trying to re-pitch you. I'm really curious to understand why it's no. Because is it a, is it no, it's too expensive? Is it no, you don't fully understand how this would fit into your life? Is it no, because you're not the decision maker? And maybe you're not spending your money in, that could be in a B2B context. So The next step, the no plus, the plus is actually where you get some really good feedback. And to double down on what you said, I suppose it's in the first moment, in that instance, saying, it's great to know where you stand. Now, can you flesh out where you stand?

Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that. We're quickly running out of time, and we haven't even touched on your other endeavor. But it's new to me. So I would love for you to just unpack a little bit about what Subscription Club all about. Who is that for? What's the problem that you're solving through that endeavor?

Sure. Yeah. So Subscription Club was born during the pandemic when myself, my co-founder, we both had joined subscription services and had noted in passing that they weren't all they could be, let's say. There was just certain things about the subscription services we were using, the platforms, not the products themselves, the platforms that didn't lend themselves to ease of use.. And we started to talk about it. And one thing we kind of broadened out the conversation into was like, well, no one's going into shops anymore because it's a pandemic. But it's something that people that is maybe missing now in the world of e-commerce. It's kind of, it's very transactional. But how can you make it more relational? So subscriptions are one way to make e-commerce more relational. I mean, e-commerce is such a, it's such a flinty word. It's such a hard word. But behind it is a serving of needs. So what we're trying to do is help people, help online retailers to develop a better relationship with their customers. One of the ways we do that is subscriptions. We have other ways that once we get a bit of traction that we're going to introduce. But we just said to ourselves, like subscriptions is, subscriptions are kind of magic because if a customer says, I want to start a subscription, to your product, they are, they're not just raising their hand, they're putting it way in the sky. They're putting up two hands to say, I love this so much. I don't even want to have to think about ordering it. And please just take the money out of my account on a regular basis, effectively. And that's a really, they're your hardcore fans. They're your evangelists. They're your, your minimum viable audience. Again, like you can literally pick up the phone to those people. An awesome amount of things because they love you and they're willing to do whatever for you. So how can we find ways to find those customers? And I suppose to treat them in a way that shows them that they are a valued customer. So again, it's going back to that relationship thing, like this finding subscription customers is a great way to, I don't want to say segment your audience, but just to uncover more information about your audience so that you can do a better job of serving Really, really interesting.

I mean, it's, it is a way, especially in, in the current times, to bring in some, some, some sustainability that you can count on over time. You know, the idea of being able to provide some sort of monthly product or service so that you have a recurring income, as opposed to, you know, the way a lot of digital commerce goes, which is just like any freelancing endeavor, you're only making money when somebody has hired you for a specific number of hours or what have you. I love the idea. And so that was subscription.club.

Subscription.club is where to go for that.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to check that out myself. So as we're approaching the end of our, our time together, Connor, just a couple last quick questions. One is, um, you mentioned that you have a partner in your subscription club. Endeavor. And I'm— one of the things that I know from talking to many, uh, of the, the guests is how important routines and relationships are for people that are engaged in some sort of entrepreneurial freelance endeavor. So I'm just curious about, you know, how do you go about crafting and cultivating routines, daily routines, and relationships that help keep you on track and moving forward in your various endeavors?

Yeah, this is a great question, and it's one that I've spent a lot of time thinking about and a lot of time staying on top of, because I don't think it's a one-and-done, set it and forget it thing forever, because you learn as you go and you shift things around. So staying on track, I have a couple of a couple of routines that I do that I'll share that have been really useful for me. So I think reflection and planning are two really important sides of a coin, if you like, that I spend time doing every Friday. And this takes about an hour. But what I do is I have a list of questions at the end of each week, usually on Friday afternoon, and I answer these questions. And they're things— I don't have them right in front of me— but it's things like, you know, what were my wins this week? What could I improve on? You know, who did I reach out to this week that, you know, that I had a really engaging conversation with? What were some of the highlights? That doesn't take long to do because, and it's actually nice, you kind of go, oh, actually, this week I did more than I thought I did. And then the second part is planning. Now, of course, planning is like, you should, everyone should plan. But it can be hard to imagine how to do that. So I follow a very simple framework, for want of a better word. I call it, I call it OBT because that's the, it's one big thing. It's so every day when I'm planning my next week, I say, right, every single day, there's going to be one big thing that I'm going to get done. That big thing could be 4 hours drafting a document for XYZ, or it could be a difficult phone call. Let's say there's some problems in some part of the business. And it's like, I need to deal with this and I'm putting it off. And if I get that done, that's— I'm happy that, like, if I got nothing else done in the day, that's good. If I do get the OBT done, then I have my SBT, my second big thing. So it's less of a big deal. But it's still something that's on the cards. It's like, I really want to get this done. And then guess what? After my second big thing, there's a third big thing. So I try and put down 3 things for every day in order of decreasing importance, if you like. And look, there's a to-do list, 100 miles long. But it's really about slow and steady progress. It goes back to the kind of incremental, like you just drip by drip, as we know. It's getting those things done. So reflection every Friday, planning every week, or every Friday as well, planning the following week. And look, I drift, like, Scott, you meditate, I meditate. Like most of the job of meditation is coming back to your breath. You're always coming back. And in a very similar way, when I find myself drifting during the day, when it's like, oh, it's I just come back to my list of the 3 things. Have I done my 3 things? And if I haven't, do the 3 things.

I really love that. I have a similar practice where I write down my to-do list every morning, and then I look at it and say, OK, now what's the one thing that if I got it done would move me the furthest and fastest? But I think I'm going to steal OBT because that just, that sounds, that has a ring to it. Well, I really appreciate all, all of the wisdom that you shared with us today. The last question is always around just sharing one last tip. So if there were— we have people that are tuning in now and will tune in later that either aspire to or wish to advance in an endeavor that seeks to make a difference of their own. And, you know, if, if there were one last tip, piece of advice, uh, maxim that you would you could share for anybody that wants to lean in just a little bit harder into the difference only they can make? What would you say to them?

I'm not just saying this because it's you on the call, Scott Perry, but stoicism has been a huge influence in my life and continues to be. And there are so many good passages in stoicism, and I have not memorized most of them, but the simplest, I suppose, is one from Seneca, and it's about words becoming works. I think it's incredibly easy nowadays to research, to study, to plan, to stay behind the laptop, if you like. But to actually put something into action, to look through your phone, to find someone that potentially you could call up and have a conversation with, I think that's worth 10, 100 times as much as the words that might go behind it. The words can come later. I think act first.

I love that. Excellent. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Conor and I really appreciate you lending us your valuable time and attention. We hope that today's broadcast motivates you to lean into an endeavor that matters with greater curiosity and courage. You can learn more about Conor and the difference that he's making at ConorMcCarthy.me. Of course, it's always great to see you too at CreativeOnPurpose.com. Now take the insight and inspiration from this conversation and start flying higher in the difference only you can make. Conor McCarthy, thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you so much, Scott Perry.