Done With Funnels? Here's What Works Instead

Welcome to another pop-up edition of Creative on Purpose Live. My name is Scott Perry. I am the publisher of Creative on Purpose. It's a publication dedicated to where the art of living meets work that matters. And I'm thrilled to have Dr. Sherry and Edgar and Duncan and Claire and Penny and Roland and Paul and Dylan and Michelle and Diane and Tammy jumping on here early. Hope— hopefully other folks will join as well. Just to set the table a little bit, what we're going to do today is talk about funnel gymnastics and why they might not be such a good idea, and we'll talk about a viable alternative that might actually help you get clearer about closer to what you actually want with your business, your project, your Substack publication., on your terms without doing things that don't make you feel good or make you feel a little bit icky. And, uh, I am happy to hang out and answer questions as we go as well. Great to have you here, Duncan and Edgar. Thanks for chiming in. Dr. Sherry, great to have you here tuning in from planet Earth, Arizona, uh, to be more specific. Duncan is tuning in from the UK. Great to have you here. So let's start by just naming something that is truer than a lot of us maybe want to admit, and that is that funnels are a solution in search of a problem. We may believe that funnels are kind of a necessary evil, even if you consider yourself to be a purpose-driven solopreneur or creative that's trying to make a meaningful difference in the world, and all you're asking in return is that you can make enough today to do it again tomorrow. Most of us that are employing funnel gymnastics to get the word out about what we're doing and get people to learn about and purchase our product, service, or buy into our idea or cause don't usually feel great about some of the things that go along with funnel construction. And I think there's a really good reason for that. We're going to talk about that a little bit here in just a second. But the first thing that I want you to know is that funnels are a solution in search of a problem. Funnels are not a necessary evil. Digital marketing funnels have only been around for a little while, and long before they existed, plenty of us that are old enough to remember the world before the internet built successful businesses that had nothing to do with landing pages and opt-ins and lead magnets and email sequences and ideal customer avatars and power offers and, and all the things that go into funnel gymnastics. So one of the things that I think is really helpful to think about is what is a funnel really? A physical funnel is a device that you use to get liquids to flow into a container. If you are changing the oil in your car, you will put a funnel beneath the oil pan so that the oil goes into whatever kind of can or container you're using to dispense of the old oil so you can put new oil in. You'll use the funnel again when you put fresh oil into the, the, the oil valve in your engine. The problem with The metaphor when it comes to digital marketing funnels is that digital marketing funnels are built for human beings, and human beings do not act like liquid in a funnel. And therefore, in order to make a digital marketing funnel work, which, you know, most— a physical funnel works because of gravity. But since people don't behave like oil running through a funnel or a liquid running through a funnel, you have to apply something else to get them to go through the funnel. And that thing that you're actually going to use is going to be some sort of force or pressure. It may be even manipulation or tricking or hacking people to go through your funnel. The thing about digital marketing funnels is that they are incredibly leaky. They are very inefficient and very ineffective devices for connecting the right people to the product or service, idea or cause that you know will enhance their lives because people Well, I mean, at this stage in the game, most of the folks out there that are using funnels don't actually feel like they are an authentic expression of the way that they would like to promote their business. And most people that are on the receiving end of a funnel don't actually appreciate being treated like a liquid being forced through a device that's going to get them to a transaction. So funnels are incredibly ineffective and inefficient because digital marketing funnels don't operate on a basic law of the universe that other funnels do, which is gravity. They rely on pressure and force and manipulation. And when you look at the level of inefficiency, the best funnels out there will convert somewhere slightly above 2 or 3%, meaning for every 100 people that come into a funnel, 2 or 3 of them, if your funnel is good, will actually purchase the thing that you want them to purchase. An outstanding funnel will be operating somewhere between 4 and 5%. Most people that I know that are working with funnels are still trying to, to optimize funnels that are up Operating at 1 or 2%. 1 or 2 people out of every 100 actually make it through to purchase your thing. And the question is, are they glad that they went through that process when they purchased your thing? Do they— have you alleviated all the buyer's remorse? Did they regret giving up their leverage by giving you their email address and then their credit card information so that they could get that you wanted to sell them. In many cases, even those 1 or 2 per 100 have entered and purchased with an incredible amount of cynicism and skepticism. And you're going to have to work really hard even after they've bought the thing to get them to actually engage in your product or service in a way that actually helps them feel like their lives have been enhanced by doing that. So funnel— digital marketing funnels are extremely ineffective. They require a huge volume of people going in the, the top to drip through to the bottom because they're incredibly leaky. They're going to leak between 95 and 90 or 98% of the people that come in are not going to make it through the funnel and are going to walk away even if they were an incredibly good fit for your product or service. And not— and because they require that kind of volume, they really only work when you are powering them with ads, which is incredibly expensive, also really ineffective and inefficient. And they require a ton of time, attention, money, and effort to keep them going, to keep them optimizing, to keep them just, just working at a, at a level that is barely sustainable, which is why you see so many digital marketers talking about, uh, return on investment and KPIs and optimizing, uh, and con— you know, paying attention to conversion metrics and so forth. And so why are we buying into and doing this kind of tool-based tactical thing when our past experience demonstrates that there are better ways, ways that align with our values and our boundaries and our guardrails and the way that we want to show up, the kind of person that we want to become by making a difference, doing the work that we do in the way only we can do it, serving the people that we seek to serve. Because we all— those of us that are old enough to remember— had plenty of ways of connecting with the right people and serving them and being helpful and useful to them, even when it was for pay, that didn't involve any funnel gymnastics, digital marketing BS, and tricks and hacks. So Uh, let's just look at it for a second through— before I give you the alternative, let's look at the funnel system, the digital marketing funnel through the Clarity Hierarchy. So for those of you that aren't familiar with the Clarity Hierarchy, it's something that was developed by my friend Lucas Fisher. It's something that I talk about quite a bit with the community inside Creative on Purpose, the folks that have signed up for the monthly or annual subscription as circle members. Or founding level subscribers who are part of the Inner Circle, we talk about the Clarity Hierarchy a lot. And the Clarity Hierarchy shows us that the way that most people operate their businesses or their lives or make their decisions is completely bass-ackwards because we start with the tool. Be— people will begin their business with a tool, a funnel, a funnel that is going to be less than 95% effective, that's going to require an incredibly large investment of time, attention, money, and effort to work. And they end up building a business where they spend 80 to 90% of their time on digital marketing BS and funnel gymnastics and only 10 to 20% of their time doing the work that they actually started their business for in the first place because they bought into the idea that they need to have this tool that they actually don't need to have. That funnel, that digital marketing funnel employs the tactics of pressure and force because that's the only way that a funnel can work. And strategically, they are trying to manipulate and trick people into giving up their email address so that they can force them through an email sequence and a nurture sequence that gets them to a sales page that uses a bunch of tricks and hacks and manipulation and copy, um, shenanigans to get them to purchase a thing through false urgency and false scarcity. And amplifying their pain, digging into their pain. You hear digital marketers talking about that. You have to identify the pain point and then dig into them. Uh, they, they are, uh, operating on the principle of force and manipulation, and they are based on the philosophy that the only way to have a viable business is to get the word out to as many random strangers as possible. A right that you're going to have to pay for. So the Clarity Hierarchy as it applies to digital marketing funnels starts with the, the funnel as the thing that you are optimizing for and spending the most time, attention, and money on. And you work your way down to the philosophical underpinning of a funnel, which is that you have to try to trick people out of their email address or out of their credit card information in order to get them to go through this funnel and sell the thing that you want to sell. It's not a great way for most of us that consider ourselves to be business owners that think of themselves as having integrity and empathy and want to do work that matters with people that they care about. It's not a great way to run a business or to get the word out about your or service. So what's the alternative? Well, for the last couple of weeks, we've been talking about a process that I call Be a Blessing Marketing. And we can understand Be a Blessing Marketing by actually going through the Clarity Hierarchy again. But let's start at the foundation. Let's start with the philosophy. What is it that you believe? What's the assertion that you hold to be true. The assertion, the philosophy of Be a Blessing Marketing is that you can build a business that funds and fits the life you want and build it completely on your terms and in complete alignment with your personality and preferences, your tolerances and your talents. By simply showing up as you are with what you have and doing your thing with and for everyone, the people that are around you. And your people will find you. They will be attracted to you because the principle behind Be a Blessing Marketing is Gravity. Gravity is an actual force of nature. Gravity is what makes a physical funnel work. But because a physical funnel or a digital marketing funnel doesn't have gravity, it uses force and pressure to push three people through the funnel. But with Be A Blessing Marketing, we're going to create gravity by being the gravity. By being the best in the world at doing what you do and the way only you can do it, and having true conversations and telling true stories to people whose lives will be enhanced by colliding with the difference that only you can help them make in the way only you can help them make it. So we're going to use presence to create positioning that allows us to continue to do the work that we're meant to do, that we built our business for in the first place, to become preeminent, to become the best in the world at doing what we do in the way only we can do it. So strategically, we are going to have real conversations. We're going to have— we're going to tell true stories to people whose lives will be enhanced by colliding with us and the difference that we can help them make. And then moving to the, to tactics, we're just gonna, we're gonna use presence. We don't have to use pressure. We're going to just show up as we are with what we have and do what we can with and for whoever shows up whenever we can. And trust that through delivering real value and being truly helpful and useful, and helping people see what they need to see in a way they can't unsee it and help them take the next best step into possibility for themselves and their potential to get whatever it is that they want to achieve their aspiration or solve their problem. That's the tactic. The tactic is be useful, be helpful. And the tool that we're gonna use to do that is permission. What Seth Godin calls permission marketing. We're going to earn their enrollment in the journey that we can take them on. So Be a Blessing Marketing just totally gets rid of all of the digital marketing BS. If you are going to simply show up where the people you seek to serve already are, and you show up as you truly are and do what you truly can by making and keeping small promises for whoever happens to be around, your people will naturally decide for themselves that they would like to take a bolder step into possibility with you, that they would like to take another step into proximity and access. That they want to learn more about the information that you have that will help them achieve their aspiration or solve their problem. And over time, if you make and keep a number of small promises that demonstrates not only your expertise and ability to help them and helps them get clearer about and closer to what they want, with greater confidence, at some point they will decide for themselves that they want to catalyze that process by hiring you or buying your thing to catalyze the progress that you've already helped them make toward a destination that you help them clarify by helping them use the things that they already had. So Be a Blessing Marketing is a real serious paradigm shift. And for those of you that are bought into the marketing funnel and, you know, the usual what I call digital marketing BS, I'm here to tell you that I'm not saying it doesn't work because it can work. It does work. I have been a very successful digital marketer. I created an ideal customer avatar. And a compelling power offer and constructed a digital marketing funnel and powered it all with Facebook ads and Google ads and YouTube ads to grow a very successful business from a revenue perspective. I earned $10,000 a month for almost a year powering a business entirely on digital marketing BS. I spent 80 to 90% of my time doing all the things that have to be done to power a digital marketing funnel, which had nothing to do with the work that I actually started my business for in the first place. So I worked 8 to 10 hour days and spent 80 to 90% of that time doing things I didn't really like and didn't really want to do, just for the privilege of earning enough to keep that machine going and do a little bit of the work that I started my business for. But what I've been able to do since is after I burned myself out and blew myself up running that business is I inverted the entire process and started just showing up and doing the work that I love to do with people that I care about, that I could truly help. And by creating that presence in that positioning based on my personality, my preferences, who I really am, what I'm really great at, and where I really belong, naturally attracted more than enough of the right people to raise their hand and willingly enroll and invest in the journey I could take them on. And now, instead of working 10 hours a day, spending 8 of those hours doing things I don't like so I could spend 2 hours doing things I love, I now work 2 hours a day. I never do anything that I don't want to do in terms of running my business. It's always completely aligned with empathy and integrity and a desire to be of service and to be generous and to be helpful and useful. And I get to spend the rest of my day doing what a business should do, fitting around the life that I want to live, funding the life that I want to live. Those of you that are here that know me know that for me, that's spending 9 hours a day with my grandsons, 5 days a week. I get to do that because I work between 5 and 7 AM doing the work I need to do with and for my clients and for my community. And I spend the rest of the day taking care of my grandsons and maybe wrap up the day with, uh, whatever things that need to be addressed at that time for my business. So entirely possible to run a business using the digital marketing funnel. It's expensive. It requires a huge investment of time, attention, money, and effort. It usually costs you quite a bit of integrity because most of the things that it requires you to do are things that are not aligned with people that identify as purpose-driven, solopreneurs or independent creatives. And instead, you could do your thing and let people watch and just trust that your people will find you and become the one and only choice for people that need the difference only you can make in the way that only you can make it, because you've demonstrated that over and over and over again by being present and positioning yourself as the person with the service or product that they need to enhance their lives. So that was a little bit of a riff that turned into a little bit of a rant. My apologies for that, but I do want to hang out for another couple of minutes here to see if anybody has any questions. I want to acknowledge that Ryan and Chris and Anna have also joined us in the meantime. Duncan says, Scott, what I noticed in the digital marketing industry is that they focus on the product rather than connecting with the people who need it. I think that's a fair read for sure, Duncan. It reminds me of one of the fundamental questions that— and one of the fundamental things that I learned from Seth Godin really early on, and for those that aren't familiar with my history, I have a— I leveraged a 7-year association with Seth Godin as an alt-MBA and a Kimbo coach and later head coach to make a transition from a very successful career as a full-time musician and guitar studio owner to the work that I'm doing now. And one of the first things that I learned from Seth that has continued to be, you know, one of the foundational fundamental questions that I ask myself about everything I do is, what's it for? Like, is your product a means to an end in terms of generating revenue? Because there's lots of ways, especially with AI, that you can create things that people will buy just to make money. Or is what you want to do to actually make a difference in people's lives, to help them get clearer about and closer to what they want with greater ease and velocity. Because if you want to do that, then Duncan, you are completely and entirely correct. It's about them. It's about what you can do for them. It's not what they can do for you by buying your product. And so there is a fundamental shift in perspective when you shift away from funnel gymnastics to this idea of be a blessing marketing, is that you become a lot less self-focused and product and service focused and less focused on all the features and benefits and the many ways that you can sell a thing to people whether or not they need it, and instead start focusing on that smallest viable audience that you need, which is all you need, is a handful of people who have a problem that you can truly solve or an aspiration you can truly help them achieve and just spend your time helping those people get clearer about and closer to what they want. At some point, they're going to decide that they want to catalyze that process by paying you to help them increase the velocity and the ease with which that they can achieve what they want to achieve. So I appreciate that, Duncan. That's a great question. We had Baz and Molly also join us. Great to have you here. Um, yeah, and wait, and it says, way to recover from the blowup. Uh, yeah, the blowup was significant. So I, I had almost a year of making really, really good money while I was working 10-hour days, uh, and spending a lot of time completely out of alignment with, you know, my integrity, my values, my principles, and, and way outside of my boundaries and guardrails. And it just, it wore me completely wore me down, uh, and I truly did spend a year in the wilderness questioning everything I had done and everything I had, uh, become. And it— everything that I shared around the Be a Blessing marketing approach is from my journey of recovering from being a very successful digital marketer, uh, who bought all the BS and, and became very skillful at employing it. Edgar has to go. Thank you, Scott. You're welcome. Molly just says, I caught the last few minutes. I love how you articulate this, really helpful. Thank you, Molly. Great to see you. Will also has joined, and Dr. Sherry. Dr. Sherry says, you articulated that so well. Why I've avoided the digital marketing path Yeah, I don't know, you know, folks, if you want to drop in the chat like where you are in the journey, like if you are at the beginning where you're just starting your Substack or just starting your business, um, that would be helpful. Uh, if you're, um, already a very successful business owner succeeding on your terms, that would be helpful to know. And if you're somewhere in that messy middle between just starting and and fully succeeding on your terms, that would also be helpful. But just based on some of these comments, and to give people another minute to add a question or two, um, I will say just a word about something I see a lot on Substack, um, around, you know, there's a lot of Substackers on Substack who simply Substack to other Substackers about how to Substack on Substack. Uh, it's kind of like coaches coaching coaches about coaching, uh, that happens in, in, on other platforms and, and also happens here. Um, there is nothing wrong. I have no problem with growth. I have no problem optimizing for more subscribers or, uh, for a bestseller badge or for whatever it is that you're optimizing for. You, you can optimize whatever you want for the benefit of yourself and other people, but growth for growth's sake, optimizing for, um, not the, you know, subscriber numbers for its own sake, is not necessarily, uh, something that's going to be good for you. You have to— again, the question that I learned from Seth Godin: what's it for? Like, what's the growth for? Like, people love to share how many, you know, that they have 10,000, 100,000 subscribers or whatever. Uh, that number only matters insofar as it helps you get closer to what it is that you want, and You know, if you're going to get closer to what you really want as a Substacker, it's not about the number of people that subscribe. It's how many of those people actually open your emails consistently. How many of those people engage with your articles consistently? How many of those people, uh, join your community by becoming a paid subscriber or joining some community that you built outside the platform? How many of those people have asked to work with you one-on-one or through some kind of group program or course to get clearer about and closer to what they actually want? Like, those numbers matter, and those numbers don't require huge subscriber counts. When I first came to Substack, I came here with 500 subscribers And in my first year, 500 subscribers, I ended up with, I don't know, maybe 10, 20 paid subscribers in that first year, but I hit my monthly revenue goal, the number that I need to live the life that I want. In less than 6 months with less than 500 subscribers and way less than 100 paid subscribers. So I've never really thought about growth from the, you know, I never really have, have bought into the Growth Hacker advice that you gotta, it's all about getting a viral note so that you can build your subscriber, um, subscriber count, or that, um, you should be doing anything just to get the word out to more people. I want to get the word out to the right people. And so although I have grown my Substack subscriber count to about 1,000 subscribers now, um, over, over the course of the last couple of years, I've routinely deleted people that are not opening my emails because I don't really care about having a large number of subscribers. I care about how many people are opening my emails, how many people look forward to hearing from me. If you give me your email address, you have given me permission— this is coming from Seth Godin's Permission Marketing— to, to connect with you and send anticipated personal and relevant messages to you. And if at any point you decide that you are not anticipating my messages and do not find them personal or relevant, I don't see any reason for me to clog up or clutter up your inbox. And so I routinely keep my subscriber count right around the 1,000 level. I have currently about 60 paid subscribers. That's way more than I need to, um, keep my programs full. I, I haven't had a, uh, an opening in either of my Cornerman programs, whether it's the Cornerman program, monthly program that gives you access to me one-on-one on Zoom in addition to daily on Boxer, or the Boxer Velocity, which gives you daily access to me on Boxer. I haven't had an opening in either of those programs for well over a year. I have a waiting list, and anytime somebody drops off, which is on average people stick around for 7 or 8 months, uh, there's always someone waiting to jump into that slot. 1,000 subscribers, 60 paid subscribers, that's all it takes for me, and that's enough. I don't, I don't really care about the growth hacking. I don't care about the, the— well, I would love to get a bestseller badge, but only if it's with 100 of the right people. Uh, Dr. Sherry says, I've been on Substack for 2 years on May 8th, not succeeding monetarily but enjoying the relationship I have with my readers. I think that's totally fine, Dr. Sherry. I— when I began my business, I had no idea what my business was going to be. I just started blogging and broadcasting and talking about things that mattered to me and talked with people who I found interesting. And over time, the purpose of what I was doing emerged, and the people I needed to work with or to connect with kind of also emerged. And, and the business emerged kind of organically and naturally just by showing up and doing my thing and letting people watch and trusting that my people would find me. So if, if you're— if you are getting joy, fulfillment, meaning, satisfaction from the what you're doing on Substack, I think that's completely fine. It doesn't have to become a business. Not everything should be a business. And if you decide it's going to be a business, just do it with the kind of intention and integrity that allows you to do it on your terms and get what you want by giving the, the right people what they want. Ryan says, I've been on Substack for a year this month. Awesome, Ryan. I definitely see your notes on sub— in my Substack feed. I love, love the way that you're reaching out and talking to people from that place of philosophy and principles. If anybody has any questions, you know, attached to where they are in their Substack journey, I'm happy to hang out and keep talking about these things. Duncan says, I'm still learning more about how to grow my Substack, but I enjoy listening to your work. I appreciate that, Duncan. I've seen you— well, I saw you yesterday on the free workshop, and, um, and, and appreciate your restacking and commenting on my notes and, and posts and so forth. Molly says, I've been following you, Scott, for years, but I'm finally believing that what you're saying is possible for me too. Thank you, Molly. It's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a really generous share, Molly. And I'll just say this for everybody that's watching I actually believe that everyone on this planet is entitled to make a living on their terms, doing work they love with people they care about. I think every single one of us is here to do what we can and make the difference only we can make in the way that only we can make it with and for the people that we care about. And is it a journey sometimes to find all of those things. And yes, because we have to undo a lot of programming and conditioning that comes from evolution and biology and institutionalized education and occupation. But the first step is to wake up and realize that you've been playing a game that you didn't really— that you don't want to play, that you didn't sign up for. You know, the game of, um, you know, fit in and, uh, achieve the things that society or education tells us matter. So that you can go achieve at the next school or, uh, job, uh, and get some, some enough money to, to entertain yourself in a way that distracts you from doing anything that actually will have you come to the end of your life feeling like you really did something that was meaningful and, and fulfilling and, and, and and satisfying and significant. First step is wake up. And the second, after you become, uh, after you wake up, then the, the next step is becoming the kind of person that can become the kind of person that you want to become, doing the kind of work that you want to be doing. And those become solvable problems once you wake up to the fact that you are probably here to be and do more and better with all of the skills and talents you already have, uh, figuring out how to turn those into a viable, sustainable, um, business or project or endeavor becomes a very solvable problem very quickly, especially if you surround yourself with people that are on a similar journey, which is exactly what we try to do in the Circle and in the Inner Circle. Claire says, what about people who read the articles on the app or web and don't like to read it on the email and Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot of folks that, you know, advocate never, uh, never kind of curating your list, never deleting any of your subscribers because those people may be engaging you as, um, as followers, or, you know, maybe they are, uh, seeking out your Substack on a regular basis. I think that number is probably like really small. Like, uh, on Friday my friend Seth Workheiser is going to talk about, um, how to turn followers into subscribers, which I think is a worthwhile thing to discuss. Um, being a follower of a Substack is a very weak signal, but it is a signal that someone resonated with something that you said in a note in an article that they happen to collide with, in an article that was shared by a friend. And that is a, that's a stronger connection to try to improve upon than just reaching out through to a bunch of random strangers, you know, with a Facebook ad algorithm and paying dearly in terms of time, attention, money, and effort for the privilege of doing so. Um, this— the signal that matters most to me, Claire, is that someone has subscribed, which means that they invested their email address, which I think is a very precious commodity. It's— I don't take it lightly that people have lent me their email address so I could connect with them with anticipated personal and relevant messages. And if they are subscribed but not opening my emails, to me, that's a signal that maybe I haven't really done a great job of being the kind of person and delivering the kind of content that they are eager to hear about and open. So I do on a regular basis delete subscribers that are not opening my emails. My goal ultimately is I would like love to have 1,000 free subscribers that are opening every single email, because if I can achieve that number, then, uh, I don't think that there's any question about whether or not I'll get a number of paid subscribers, my business even more viable and sustainable. So just to be clear, we talked about this in the workshop yesterday, and if you open up tomorrow's email, you'll learn about the entire Be a Blessing Marketing web, which is the mechanism, the strategy we use for connecting with and, and having the right conversations with the right people. But if you think about it as exposure, proximity, and access. Access is what people pay for. You helping them implement whatever information process framework product or service you, you have. Proximity is something that you, which that, that I achieve through the paid subscriber count. If I, you know, if you are a monthly, annual, or founding subscriber, you are paying for proximity. You are paying so that you can get on a call with me 3 times a week, do a deep dive with me once or twice or 3 times a month. Um, and exposure is what the, the posts and the notes are for. Like, if you happen to trip over me in Substack notes or because I was recommended by another publication and that got you to follow me. That's great. But that's like, that's just a really weak signal to me. Like, I'm grateful for that. I would love to earn the privilege of getting more, earn more of your permission and attention and trust. But that's, that's going to be, that's my responsibility., and, um, I'd rather focus on the folks that are, that have given me permission to speak to them and are eager enough to hear from me that they're opening my emails. And I'm not, again, I'm not worried about the, the overall subscriber count. I don't recommend that for anybody else, like, especially if you're at the beginning stages, uh, there's no reason to curate. Your list, uh, and, and delete people that aren't opening. But if at a certain level— and I feel like I'm at that level— I really only care about talking to the people that are eager to hear from me. So I, I do, uh, do do that. Um, Claire says maybe these people should at least give you some likes sometimes so they know you are still there. Yeah. I agree. Ryan says 100%. Molly says yes, 100%, it's exactly that. Ryan says compare, compete, conform, consume. Yeah, so that's the, that's the, uh, that's the institutional model, right? That's the, the institutions that we've created— educational institutions, occupational institutions, societal institutions, systems. You know, they're all built on compliance, they're all built on coercion, they're all built built on competition, conformity, and consumerism. Uh, it's a business model that you can use if you want to use it. I prefer to engage in a, in a way that's more human. Will says that I built an audience on Instagram and feel inertia starting on a new platform. Also not sure if my audience is on SEC. I should ask them. LOL. Yeah, yeah, Instagram. So I deleted all of my legacy social media in October of last year. I haven't been on, uh, well, I should say I deactivated all my, my profiles on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter, X, whatever it's called now. So I, I can't really speak to what it's like to try to build a business there. I had in the past built a business leveraging Facebook ads, which also included Instagram ads. Uh, it was a great way to, to connect with a lot of, um, people that weren't great fit clients who sometimes bought my thing, and then, you know, we both ended up regretting it almost as soon as the transaction went through. Uh, again, just my experience. Um, But your— the fundamental piece of your question, Will, is really worth highlighting, which is like, where's your audience? Where are the people that you seek to serve? And you will be much better served going to the places where the people that you want to help already gather, rather than trying to trick them into getting on your email list, whether that's on Substack or somewhere else. If you show up and deliver real value and be helpful and useful to people where they are, and you're helping them get clearer about, closer to what they want to accomplish or the problem they're trying to solve, and you help them take small steps into possibility and get clearer about, closer to what they want, they will naturally come to wherever you are. Uh, what I found is that when I finally got around to, uh, posting on Substack, my subscriber numbers went up at an astronomical rate. Where using social media and a website was getting me, uh, 1 or 2 subscribers a week at best, uh, I would regularly, regularly get 1 or 2 subscribers a day on Substack. And then, well, you know, I, I made the mistake of trying to amplify that with Facebook ads. And what ended up happening is I started on Substack with a, a, a open rate that was over 40%, almost 50%, and I drove it down to below 30%, actually almost all the way down to 20%, uh, by getting people that were actually looking to get distracted on Facebook or Instagram to come to Substack, where they came and then never opened my emails. And so a lot of what I've been doing with keeping my list, you know, more curated is getting rid of all those people that came to me because I used ads, to get them, or shared my content organically on those platforms and got people that were looking for distraction on Facebook or to promote themselves, just wanted to promote themselves like they do on LinkedIn or argue like they do on Twitter. I don't know what people actually are trying to do on Instagram. It's a platform I never really understood, but, um, what I have found And one of the reasons why I think my subscriber, my email list has grown so exponentially on Substack is number one, Substack is masterful at leveraging the network effect, but also Substack is a place for people that are readers and readers are thinkers. People that come to Substack are, have a point of view, they have a worldview, they have interests, and they're coming here in the same way they might use a search engine like YouTube to get information, do research, find the kind of things that they, that they're, they are interested in. They'll do that on Substack. And what I find is that the quality of subscriber that comes to me through Substack is exponentially better than it's been when I was leveraging other platforms. That's me. That's my experience. Your mileage may vary. But to Will's point, like, be really thoughtful and deliberate about what platforms you're showing up on and what those platforms are optimized for or designed for and how you're actually showing up. And, and not just how you're doing the showing up, but what you're doing. When you, when you show up and what, what are you optimizing for on those platforms? What's it for? Like for me, when I asked what's Facebook for, what's Instagram for, what's LinkedIn for, what's Twitter for, uh, what they are designed for and what they are for did not align at all with, uh, the purposes of the difference I'm trying to make. And so I just deactivated all of them. And that was well over 6 months ago, and my business has only grown and gotten better, and the quality of the people I'm working with, uh, has only gotten better over time. Duncan says, I think recommendations is a great way to get started on building an audience. I agree. Um, I don't actually do any kind of— I have no strategy around getting recommended. I regularly get updates from Substack that different various publications are recommending me, and I'm always grateful for that. I don't automatically recommend them back. Um, in general, I make sure that I am recommending the publications of all of my clients and community members because I want to follow them and keep up with what they're up to and, and make sure I I'm aware of what they're trying to accomplish and what they're doing, and I want to support and encourage their endeavors here on Substack. Above and beyond my community members and clients, I actually recommend very, very few publications, and the ones that I do recommend are just ones that I really, really, really find value in and, and feel really good about supporting. And, you know, I get lots of recommendations, people asking me, hey, if you, you recommend me, I'll recommend you. I don't— I just don't see the point. It's not— does you no good to get recommended by a publication that doesn't have the kind of people that you want to connect with, um, subscribe to it. Will says, I work in entertainment, by the way, uh, theater, where follower counts are definitely an asset, and my word is very much locked in on Instagram and Twitter. I guess that's Twitter, or TikTok. I'm sorry, TikTok. But I should do more digging here. Yeah, yeah, I think, um, I see quite a few people that are in the entertainment world here. I, uh, I follow a couple of comedians on Substack that I used to follow, uh, on Instagram or Facebook. Um, there are, you know, plenty of actors and writers and celebrities here, so, uh, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to find some of the people that you want to connect with. Dr. Sherry says, thanks, Scott, I always learn something from you, and here's something I needed to hear. That's great. We're almost at an hour, and that is very hard for me to believe. Uh, so I appreciate anyone that is still here listening to my riffing and ranting. But these are topics that I, that I love to talk about, and they're things I really care about. Fundamentally, I would just end with an assertion that every single person here now and listening in replay is entitled to build a business on your terms that funds and fits the life that you want. And Substack is a great way to build that business. Excuse me. It's been very— it's been the most successful platform that I've ever used. It's helped me get rid of a lot of platforms that I never really felt aligned with anyways. But regardless of platform, you have to be thoughtful and deliberate about how you are getting the word out about what it is that you can do for the people you seek to serve with your product, service, idea, or cause. And if you're going to play the funnel game, you will probably find, like most people do, that it becomes a trap. You'll spend 80 to 90% of your time on funnel gymnastics, acting like a digital marketer, doing digital marketer things, employing all the tricks, the hacks, the tools, the tactics, the strategies. If you want to spend 80% of your time becoming a digital marketer, no judgment. Most of us, at least most of the people that are attracted to me and my work, considers themselves to be purpose-driven. They consider themselves to be difference makers. They want to do work that matters with people they care about and do fulfilling work that is meaningful and significant to them and impactful to the people they want to, to help. And you can do that kind of work without, without any digital marketing BS. There's no funnel required, no ideal customer avatars, no power offers, no email sequences or opt-ins or landing pages or sales pages. YouTube channels, Instagram channels, and none of that is required. You can build a very successful business and reach more than enough of the right people by simply showing up where they are with empathy, with integrity, and doing what you can with what you have for whoever is around, and just being clear about the promises that you are making and making sure you keep them. And if you make enough small promises and keep them, more than enough people will raise their hand to invest in the solution that you have to their problem or the, the process or framework that you have to help them achieve their aspiration. So Be a Blessing Marketing is all about the alternative, the more aligned, the more ethical, approach that has more integrity over the digital marketing funnel. So if that all sounds interesting, check out the article tomorrow. And, uh, yeah, I appreciate the gift of everyone's time and attention. I appreciate the, the, the questions and the interaction here. And, uh, until next time, be well, do good, have fun.