Forget Generic Strategies. Grow on Your Authenticity!

Well, hello everyone. Everyone's jumping in. Thank you so much everyone for joining us. We're super excited to be here and talking about a really important topic, I think, especially for authors to hear about. Um, my name is Jeylan Guindiz. I am the editor-in-chief and representative for One Brilliant Arc. We are a story studio that helps marginalized authors get their voices heard. Um, and we want to give a warm welcome to Scott Perry. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, yeah, it's great to have you here and I am so excited to hear some of the wisdom that you have to share around marketing and a different way to look at it. Um, so I'll give you the floor. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your story and what kind of creative work you do.

Oh, okay. Well, first of all, it's a privilege to be asked to have this conversation with you, and I really appreciate you and the work that you do. I came across you when you were interviewing our mutual friend Claudia, and I thought you did an exceptional job as a host. So thank you for accepting my beg to have a conversation. My name is Scott Perry. My publication on Substack is called Creative on Purpose. It's a publication I started when I was just graduating from Seth Godin's altMBA in 2016. And I went on from graduating from the altMBA to become a coach and later head coach in Seth Godin's Akimbo workshops, including the marketing seminar and the creatives workshop and the freelancers workshop and bootstrappers workshop and the story skills workshop. And I use that as a bridge to Moved from a 30-year career as a professional guitarist. I played music for a living for 30 years. I raised a family while I was doing that. And now I am a full-time grandpa, part-time writer and coach at Creative on Purpose. And yeah, the things that you invited me to talk about today are very near and dear to my heart. Storytelling, authenticity, these are really important things. And how do we market our our work as, as writers and difference makers.

For sure, for sure. It seems like you're one of the rare creatives who, um, are able to master both the creative side of work and also the marketing side. I know from experience myself as a writer and a young published author, um, I had a lot of difficulty learning how to be an entrepreneur around my work. And a lot of, uh, creative people have a really hard time with self-promotion. Um, and I mean, even when I became an editor, I was freelancing. And that again is— every single creative person in this market needs to learn how to be an entrepreneur in order to get their work out there. Um, so it seems like, you know, that skill set of marketing yourself doesn't come naturally to a lot of us. Kind of, we hear marketing, it makes us feel really icky inside. Um, I'm curious for everyone who's joined us, sound out, sound off in the comments if you are a creative who hates marketing. Um, but we are here to hear from Scott Perry about a different way to look at it that feels a lot less icky. Um, I think it's so cool that, I mean, it's wild that you reached out to me because, um, you know, Seth Godin and, uh, Bernadette Jiwa and all these people that I was learning from when I was trying to learn how to market, and you've actually worked with them. So what's the biggest thing that you took away from working with those kinds of strategies and mindsets?

That's a great question. Well, yes, I mean, it's been a privilege to be a friend and have Seth as one of my heroes, a mentor in that he has been a hero of mine that turned into a mentor. And I feel really lucky to have had that happen in my life. And You know, I think in terms of the biggest takeaways, uh, one of the real gifts that both Seth and Bernadette have is to boil things down to first principles. Uh, and you know, I remember Bernadette when, for a lot of us that are creatives and writers, we still can struggle with how do I You know, how do I tell this? How do I tell this message, get this message out that I, that, that I feel is so important? And Bernadette would remind us, you know, a story is just something that has a beginning, middle, and end.

And I love that.

That would really, you know, sometimes we forget like, yeah, it is actually that simple. You know, simple is not always easy because as human beings, we're fraught with cognitive distortions and biases and false beliefs and narrative fallacies and all these kinds of things. You know, and with Seth, I actually started as a student in his marketing seminar, which was his first workshop post-Alt MBA. And like a lot of folks, I was struggling. Like marketing just felt slimy, icky, transactional, not the kind of thing that I, and I was trying to figure out how could that How could I do that while maintaining the integrity of myself and my creative endeavor? And the way that I frame what Seth has taught me about marketing is marketing is simply telling true stories to people whose lives would be enhanced if they collided with you and the truth that you stand for. And when we And, and if we disassociate marketing from all the things that we think it is, but it's not like marketing is not advertising. Marketing is not digital promotion. It's not countdown timers and landing pages and email like that. That's not marketing. Those are tools and tactics, hacks and tricks that you can use as a marketer, but they're not necessary. All you actually need to be an a marketer, a creative who employs marketing in a way that is ethical and is done with empathy is to tell true stories to people who need to hear them so that their lives can be enhanced by the difference you can help them make.

That's so beautiful. I know I, for one, am writing that down and keeping it in front of me on my daily work, just so that I can always remember that marketing is only telling true stories to people whose lives would be improved if they collided with yours. Um, that's very similar to what we find, uh, when we work with authors and help them kind of promote their own work, uh, here at One Brilliant Arc, is the storytelling skill set that people have. You know, story structure has been proven the most resonant, effective way to communicate a true message. Um, and a lot— again, you know, whether you are an entrepreneur first and then a storyteller second, or a storyteller first and then you have to become an entrepreneur, Um, this storytelling skill set is so integral to what we do and how we can ethically connect with people and genuinely connect with people so that we don't feel that kind of like slimy transactional, like, you know, I'm, I'm just trying to create connections to earn money. It's like, no, you're, you're creating connections by telling true stories and improving people's lives. Um, So that's, that's really helpful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I would love to also hear about, in particular, we talk a lot here on Substack in general about authenticity. We talk about those genuine connections. So have you discovered a specific way that authenticity fits into your marketing strategy or mindset?

Yeah, it's a great, well, I think it really helps to start with defining our terms, you know, and because authenticity I find is more frequently a trap than it is a force multiplier for getting your message out. So if what I most often see is people talking about, and I'd love to hear your take on this, Jolan is I see it most frequently as, uh, this is, this is what I'm feeling now. I'm just gonna, you know, I gotta be me. I gotta, you know, if I'm angry, I'm gonna be angry. If I'm frustrated, I'm gonna be frustrated. If, um, if I, and it can become performative, uh, or hearing an influencer talk about like, you have to learn how to be your true self and His recommendation was go to Starbucks and lie on the floor, you know, get in line. And then when it's your turn, lie on the floor and make everybody like step over you and wait. It's like, well, that's, how is that a practice of authenticity? That sounds like practicing being an a-hole. So, you know, I would suggest that as a creative person, And as a person that is leveraging narrative storytelling as a means of getting your message across and getting the word out and connecting with more of the right people, and hopefully also as a way of encouraging the wrong people to move along and find what they need. It's less about being authentic and more about being a professional, like If I go to the dentist to get a tooth extracted and the dentist just had an argument with his wife and is feeling really angry and frustrated and comes in and says, I'm not feeling it today. I'm not going to be able to do your tooth or worse comes in with the pliers and says, you know, is really pissed off and is just going to reach in my mouth and start yanking stuff out. Like that's, he's being authentic. But it's not very helpful. It's not very useful. Neither one of us are going to, you know, be grateful for the outcome. So I think oftentimes what we really mean is, do I know myself? Like you and I, just before we hopped on this call, we're talking about one of my favorite philosophers is Heraclitus from Ephesus. Your home country. And he and the, one of the exhortations that's on the Oracle of Delphi that everybody remembers is know thyself. Like that was something that was a daily practice for people in the ancient world, whether it was the Western world or the Eastern world, knowing yourself was really important. Who am I? What am I good at? Where do I belong? These are like, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be happy? How can I be more of both? Like, these are fundamental questions that we don't really talk about anymore in our educational institutions and certainly not very often in our day-to-day lives. But when we're talking about authenticity, I think what we're actually talking about is how do I figure out who I really am, what I'm really good at, where I really belong, and And what is the difference I was put on this earth to make and how can I do that so that I can lead a fulfilling, meaningful life of purpose and fulfillment and happiness and so forth? So I think when you, to your question, how do you employ authenticity to get your narrative across? You have to remember that Storytelling is how human beings engage with the world. It's how we make sense of ourselves and each other and our situation. It's all storytelling. Uh, you know, there's a wonderful book by Ben Zander and his, uh, and Roz Zander called The Art of Possibility. And one of his, one of his principles is it's all made up. Like it is literally all storytelling. We tell ourselves stories and that's how we make sense of what's going on. And that's how we figure out where we're going and how we're going to get there. So before you get, before you get clear on connecting your idea or the difference you seek to make with the right people, it probably really helps to figure out who am I really? What are my values? What are my guiding principles? What are my core beliefs? What are my non-negotiables? What are the things that I will do and what are the things that I won't do? And the clearer you are about that, the easier it is to align yourself with more of the right people, people who share share your values and actually need your talents to enhance their lives. Because then if you had that alignment, you can find where those people are, uh, and where they're gathered and tell the stories that you need to tell to connect them with the difference that you can help them make in a way that is empathetic and ethical and helps them voluntarily seek to engage with you at a deeper level so they can get closer to what they want with greater ease and velocity.

That's awesome. I really appreciate you opening up the floor to my perspective on it too. Um, I love what you said about like, it's all storytelling. Something we often say here at One Brilliant Arc is, um, story is the connective tissue of civilization and story structure is a universal language that everyone speaks. Um, and what you said about defining terms as an editor and someone who like studies words, Uh, and the English language specifically, I think there's something really interesting that happens in culture where we kind of define words based on the connotation that they give us instead of the actual definition. So when authenticity became a buzzword, from my perspective, it seemed like it was because people who were trying so hard to be professional, um, were starting to associate professionalism with performance. And kind of showing up as not themselves and not, uh, their voice, not their, um, message, and just kind of fitting into a mold that someone else had already set as their mold. So in my perspective, we've been trying to encourage, uh, authors who are looking to market their work as, you know, let's move away from professional performance. Let's still be professional, But let's start with authenticity because authenticity forces you to look at yourself and ask those questions that you mentioned of, you know, who am I? What am I here to do? What is my message? And how do I communicate that message in a way that sounds most like me and less like someone else who had a different message to communicate? So I think that those, those definitions do get really tricky because You know, we, we don't like to define words by their dictionary definition anymore. There's so much other, uh, ick that kind of goes into it of like, now we have these connotations that, uh, give us a different idea of what this means. So to your point, yes, authenticity that is damaging to others isn't good marketing because now you're not helping to improve their lives. You know, you might be going off of what you feel like, but a lot of creative work is showing up when you don't feel like it. And, you know, still doing the work anyway, still showing up as yourself with what you have to give and the message that you know is worth showing up for, even if you don't feel like it. Um, everything that you're talking about, all of these different steps, is exactly what we walked writers through in our workshop Tell It Anyway. Um, we had our pilot program just this last November. Um, we're working on launching our next cohort But it is so valuable for writers to understand that process of how to move from understanding their voice, knowing their message, knowing their why that they're going to show up through all of the ups and downs of creative life for, and then being able to tell their story in a way that can get out and reach the audience that they need. So I really appreciate that you shared that. And that kind of goes into my next question, which is going to be like Do you feel that marketing in general should be run by formulas or do you feel like it should be run by vibes? Yeah.

Well, vibe is another tricky word that probably needs some, some, like, I'm a 60-year-old jazz musician. So the vibe, vibes to me are an instrument that Lionel Hampton played in his quartet in the 1920s.

So, um, thank you for bringing us back to dictionary definitions.

Yeah, there you go. Well, it's, it's, I think it's like you said, like, Oftentimes it has very little to do with the dictionary definitions and what, what do we actually mean? Like, what does that, like, what does that mean to you? Cause you made a great point. I think that authenticity can often be a trap and I would prefer to try to show up more as a professional, but professional, being professional can be a trap too, just as you said, right? Like if you are performing and trying to be the authority and the authoritative professional that has all the answers and has all the formulas, or, you know, if you're trying to engineer conversations so that you're vibing with the people, like, it can become just as tricky, hacky, slimy, transactional as the things that we say that we want to avoid. So, you know, I think as creatives, we like to think that if we have embraced our creative capacity and impulse and because there are plenty of people, like I wrote one of my first books was called The Stoic Creative, where I talked about the value of Stoic philosophy as a creative person. And one of the things I tackled right at the beginning of the book is how many people, like I've seen surveys where 80% of people when asked to talk about their creative capacities say, I don't have a creative bone in my body. Like, that's tremendously sad because it's so untrue. Like, creativity is simply the act of bringing something into the world that didn't exist until you brought it in. So this conversation is an act of creative collaboration. Certainly, you know, there's different, like, you know, making a peanut butter jelly sandwich is one kind of creativity, making a 7-course French meal is a different type of creativity and talk about amateur versus professional and art versus creativity and all that too. But when, if we are creative and we are invested in our creative capacity and our craft and expressing our, that creativity and connecting it with the right people, oftentimes we can fall into the into this idea of vibe as a trap. Like, I'm gonna operate on instinct and intuition, and I'm just gonna do what I feel like doing, and I want the people to, like, you know, do you feel me? And all that kind of thing. And it's like, again, I get it and I see the value in it, and I can also see how that could become a performative kind of tricky type of enterprise as well. And so When, to your question about like formula or vibe, I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. I think in addition to reasoning from first principles, the other two core elements of my philosophy of creativity and marketing and just making a difference in general are first principles thinking, like what fundamentally needs to be true in order for something to happen. Systems reliability and system thinking, right? Like, every system is perfectly designed to get the results it's getting. If you are building a system on vibes and you're not getting what you want, well, maybe your vibe system is a little bit flawed. So fundamentally, as a storyteller, as a writer, as an author, what do you need? Well, you need to have a document, some artistic expression, you know, maybe it's oral, maybe it's, it's written down, uh, maybe it's video, maybe it's, uh, narrated, what have you, uh, maybe it's completely visual. You need an audience that is eager for, to hear that story, uh, and you need a means of putting that story in front of that audience. That's, that's fundamentally all you need. And so, thinking from a formula, you know, what, in terms of a formula, I think it's okay to start with the formula. Like, okay, so if I have an audience that is eager to hear from me and I have something that I am eager to share with them, how do I put that thing in front of that audience to see if my assertion that this would be helpful, beneficial, or enjoyable to them to see if that's true or not, and then use the data that's being collected to make adjustments to the story, to the presentation, to the audience, what have you. And so I would call— again, creatives can fall into this trap of, I'm just, I gotta be creative. I gotta do my thing. I've gotta be a free spirit. I, whatever leaps into my mind is an act of genius because it, leapt into my mind and therefore I must just go ahead and do it. You know, if you want to weave in a little bit of professionalism, like if your creative endeavor, your creative output does not connect and change the audience, then what's it really for? That feels like that's, that's kind of more of a selfish kind of indulgent exercise as opposed to art that is trying to make a difference for some someone else in the world.

It sounds like the same kind of principle of using story structure. A lot of writers have a hard time using story structure because it feels like a formula that they have to fit themselves into a box of. But all story structure really is, is helping you map out those fundamental principles of what you need in order to speak this language of story that has been proven over The Course of Civilization to resonate with people most. So what you're saying about, you know, structuring your marketing to make sure that, uh, again, it all comes down to making sure that the story that you're telling is true. As long as that is so, then you're marketing with authenticity. You just need to make sure that you are telling a true story, both in your storytelling and in your marketing. Because if you're not, then, you know, you're like you said, we're just trapped in performance and we're not being ourselves and we're ultimately not going to be helpful to other people because we're not telling them the truth. So I appreciate that you shared that. Thank you so much. Um, you know, it's kind of speaking of those of us who are more just learning how to do all of this and juggle the entrepreneurship and the storytelling, um, you know, you've been at it much longer and you've had a lot more experience. In your experience, what's some of the common pitfalls that you've seen people fall into when they put together their marketing plan? Or, um, you know, any, any common pitfalls that, uh, you want to warn some of our audience about if they're just trying to learn this mindset?

I actually just today posted some thoughts that I, some questions that I learned from Seth Godin in the marketing seminar. He calls it the marketing trifecta. We did a workshop about this in the Creative on Purpose community on Tuesday. I wrote about it on Monday. You can go to the post on Monday and see the 3 questions, but I mean, if I were to boil it down in one question, the first question to answer always is, what's it for? Like this thing that you're creating, what's it for? This message that you're trying to push out into the world, um, to connect, you know, to spread the word, like what's, what's it for? One of the ways that you can avoid the authenticity trap is, you see this on Substack all the time, people that are chasing the algorithm and trying to create notes, create content that goes viral, and then are frustrated when it doesn't work. Well, chasing the algorithm is not really, that's not a marketing strategy, that's playing the lottery. Someone's going to win. The viral note lottery. It's probably not going to be you, uh, and any, any real time, uh, or effort you, you invest in chasing the algorithm is time you could spend actually getting better at your craft and actually having meaningful conversations with the right people. So the design thinking question, what's it for, is really fundamental. The three marketing trifecta questions. And again, if you go to the post on Monday, I actually provide templates that make this a little bit more easy and practical to get started with. But the first question that Seth poses in the marketing seminar and is baked into his book, This Is Marketing, is what change are you trying to make? That's what art and creativity does. It changes. People. It changes the way we think. It changes the way we show up. It changes who we are becoming. That's the purpose of art, is to make a change happen. So what change are you trying to make? Like, you should be able to be specific and clear about what that change is. For people that are experiencing this, after you collide with my art, you will believe this, or you will feel this, or you will experience this. After defining the change that you're trying to make, who are you trying to change? And this is not so much about like ideal customer avatars and niching, which are things as, as a marketer, I don't, I don't believe in ideal customer avatars and I don't believe niches are necessary. I think, I think that niching and ideal customer avatars can be a real trap. What you should be more clear on is positioning. What's the worldview of the people that you are trying to communicate with? What, what do they believe? What, what, what are they experiencing? What are their aspirations? What are their problems? And what is it that they seek, aspire to change? What's the problem that they want to solve? So it's again, not demographics or even psychographics so much as it is worldview and aspiration. And then the final question is, what promise are you making? And fundamentally, what the thing that I talk, that I help people with the most at Creative On Purpose and through the Transcendent Solopreneurship Model, which is, we call it the The conver— like, you don't need any of the digital marketing hamster wheel BS. If you are trying to be everywhere all the time, all at once on social media, if you are launching a podcast or writing a book and launching a YouTube channel and creating landing pages and lead magnets and email sequences and nurture sequence, like, these are all things like, does that have anything actually to do with the change you want to make in the world? Or is it just what you believe because some digital marketer or online guru told you this is how you have to do it. Because fundamentally, none of that is necessary. Because the way I've run— I've had a successful music career as a completely unknown musician, earned enough money to buy homes and buy cars and put kids through college and the whole nine yards. Uh, and I did it before there were any digital marketing tools, period. And the way I did it was just being really clear on who I was, what I was good at, and where I belonged, and having honest conversations with audiences and venue owners about what they could expect if they put me on stage at their venue. Um, and so what promise are you making that it has— you have to, if you make enough If you make and keep enough small promises to the right people about the— and move them towards the change that you seek to make, then you never actually have to sell anything ever. If you actually help someone get clear about what they're actually trying to accomplish, where they are, what they're starting with, and help them stop doing all the things they don't need to do and just do the 3 things they need to do a little bit better, they will raise their hand and beg you for how, how can I get more of this? How can I, how can we work together so that I can do this easier and faster? So for anybody that is a creative person, a writer in particular, but a creative of any stripe, which I would say is anybody on this call, anybody in the world. Answer those Seth Godin's marketing trifecta questions. What change are you trying to make? Who are you trying to change? What promise are you making? And if you just simply get the clearer you are about those 3 answers, the easier it will be to create a business that is not just sustainable, but also incredibly fulfilling and prosperous.

And I'll link that, uh, article that you mentioned in the description of this recording once it posts so that anyone listening can go and, uh, read those questions yourself. But I got really excited when you were talking about that because again, we're talking about how marketing and storytelling connect, and that is exactly the story structure that we walk people through when they're creating their manuscript. We say, what are you trying to say? What is your message? What is the theme of your story? If you don't have that first, you're not going to create something that people want to read. And then also, who are you creating it for? Because that's going to be the why that makes it worth it to show up when you don't want to and makes it worth it to go through this lifelong journey of, you know, this is, this is what I'm doing. I'm dedicating my life to creating this change. Um, one of my favorite quotes is 'Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comforted.' I absolutely love that quote. And, uh, it's such a good, uh, litmus test for, are you creating something that will make a change? What is the worldview that you're trying to connect with to help heal? Because ultimately, that's what storytelling does. That's the improvement that we want to have on people's lives. We want the art that we create to help heal people's hearts. So I love that, you know, you're proving even more that marketing is the only thing that you need in order to market is to know storytelling. Um, that's, and the promise that you make also, like that's, that's your genre. It's what you promise to let people experience through reading your book. So I love that you shared that and it makes me so excited that, you know, we're, we're proving our philosophy that. Marketing and storytelling go hand in hand, and you don't need to have a whole different skill set in order to be a successful creative. Uh, no matter what your creative stripe is, or, you know, whether you're, uh, more marketing physical, you know, in the community that you live in, or whether you're mostly doing it all online, it's, it's the same principles. So I know you have so much wisdom to share. We could really talk forever. Um, but we'll wrap up with, um, if you could tell your younger self or anyone who is listening, who's a few steps behind where you are, uh, if you could give any piece of advice, what would that be?

Uh, I, it's a great question. Um, the honest to God truth is if I could talk to my younger self, my younger self would say, shut up, old man, and not listen to me. So I think what I have learned is that the best way, you know, human beings are by nature aiming aspirational creatures. We like to set goals. We like to set points on the horizon. We like to go after them. We're also creatures that are fraught with false beliefs and narrative fallacies and cognitive biases and distortions that keep us humble and hiding for far too long and sometimes for all of our lives, which, you know, will lead to regret. And so with, with so much of anyone's creative journey,, you kind of have to go through whatever it is that you have to go through. Like, you know, when you were talking about storytelling structures and forms, like the hero's journey, the heroine's journey, that's a story structure that's been around forever. Is it a formula? Is it formulaic to follow the hero's journey? Well, I mean, maybe, but it also like really works. Uh, you know, whether it's The Wizard of Earthsea or, uh, The Story of Gilgamesh or the Lord of the Ringdings or whatever it is. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's an archetype that works because it's kind of embedded in our DNA and yep.

It's that universal language.

Yes. Steven Pressfield and Sean Coyne. Sean Coyne is, you know, has helped Steven Pressfield structure books through a very, uh, very detailed structured approach to laying out books that he has proven work over and over and over again and all sorts of movies and novels and what sort, nonfiction work for that matter. So there are processes that are worth trusting. And so one of the, again, one of the things that Seth Godin frequently says is trust the process. And to that I would add my favorite Goethe quote, which is, as soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live. Until you trust yourself, you can't trust the process. And the process ends up being the shortcut. But just to circle it back to the beginning of our conversation, until you know yourself, it really, you will not get anywhere. And so What I have learned is that wherever I am and wherever I've been in my journey, I'm always seeking to become something better and to do more and better with what I have to offer. So I think if I were to give anybody any advice, and again, my younger self would not listen to this if it was coming from me, my, you know, their older self, but show up as you are. With what you have, do what you can with the people that are around. And if you pay attention, and if you do that with consideration and empathy and a genuine desire to serve and to help and to provide solace and encouragement and affiliation and belonging and all the things that we crave, then your success is guaranteed. It may not be success in the way that you're imagining around fame and fortune, but it, it, you will lead a life that is well-lived and it will be lived in accordance with who you really are and who you seek to be. And according to the Stoics and a lot of other ancient philosophical disciplines and spiritual disciplines for that matter, the only thing that matters in the end is virtue? Did you show up truly as who you are? And did you do your best to make the difference that only you can make in the way only you can make? And if you, if you lean into that, um, it'll be a lot easier just to navigate all that time in the wilderness that we're all going to spend as creative people.

Yes. Wow. What a powerful way to end this conversation. Thank you again so much, Scott Perry, for sharing your wisdom. Um, for anyone listening, if you happen to be a creative of the stripe of fiction writing, uh, One Brilliant Arc is here to support fiction writers in building their story and connecting with people more authentically, um, and making a more powerful story that can make the kind of difference in the world that Scott is talking about. And we are offering free story audits, um, so if you want a free editing session for your first 10 to 15 pages Send us a message because we would love to offer that to you and help you strengthen your story according to this universal language of story structure. And Scott, where can people learn more from you? Because again, like, there's so much wisdom that you have, we could really talk for hours.

Just go to creativeonpurpose.substack.com. That's really my primary home. I'm not on social media. My website is just a link to the Substack. And I'm actually launching a book, in the midst of launching a book right now called Intrepid: Dare to Make a Difference. And the exhortation or the question delivered with empathetic antagonism is, do you care enough to commit? And it's a series of 27 questions that will help you get clear about what you're trying to accomplish and how you can get there. So I'd love for folks to learn more about that.

I'm super excited to read that. That sounds like an amazing book and a very much needed one as well. So thank you so much for sharing. Thank you everyone who joined us. It was amazing to have this conversation with all of you. Um, and I can't wait to have more conversations in the future, Scott, about how we can keep encouraging creatives to make a difference.

Appreciate it. I love, love the difference that you're making and really appreciate the work that you're doing. Uh, both in the world, but also here at A Brilliant Arc. And it's been a privilege to spend this time with you. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a great day, everyone.