Gentle Productivity: Make Real Progress Without Hustle or Burnout With Patricia Espinosa

We are live. Fantastic. Welcome everyone to another episode of Creative on Purpose Live. I am thrilled to have Patricia here with me. This is a show that's dedicated, uh, to helping you navigate the collision between the art of living and work that matters. I'm thrilled to have Patricia here with me today. We're going to get into some discussion about what we call gentle productivity. But before we get started, Patricia, please tell our viewers who you are, what you're up to these days, and where can people go to learn more about you and the difference you're making?

Well, thank you so much, Scott. Thank you for having me. And, uh, my name is Patricia Espinosa and I am on Substack. My Substack is called Blissful Daily and I share simple tools to let go of concrete things that are weighing you down so that you can invite more ease and calm and joy into your life. No matter what happens.

Well, and ease and joy in life is one of the reasons why I reached out to have a conversation with you, because it's a shared interest, if not passion, of both of ours. Maybe a shared desire. I'm still trying to get there, although I feel like I'm getting closer every day. And when we went back and forth in Messenger about what to talk about, this idea of gentle productivity came up. Uh, I love the idea of gentle productivity, but before we jump into what gentle productivity is, why not just productivity? What is productivity and what are the perils of productivity that made you want to qualify and talk about gentle productivity instead?

I think to me it was a very important distinction because before I felt, I always felt inadequate about productivity. I always felt like I was really always feeling behind and like I couldn't keep up no matter what I, I was trying to do and following all these productivity tips of, of the gurus or, you know, just whoever is teaching them, was never really quite fitting to me until I discovered one of these coaches that I kind of follow is Catherine McKenzie-Smith from Cozy Business. And she talked about following your rhythms and your energy levels and let that be a marker and just really follow what is friendly to your nervous system. And ever since then, I feel like even though I, it, it would appear as in, in standard productivity terms, maybe not quite as strict to me, it's really working because I feel like I've done a lot more than I never ever did before., but at the same time, I feel I'm supporting myself instead of beating myself up. So that's really the distinction, just being gentle in your mind with yourself. That's from where it stems from. And then you can actually maybe even take on maybe more than before, but you're not just having this inner turmoil.

Yeah, I love that. One of the very first online gurus I ever followed and became a member of their mastermind or community, a paid community, was Michael Hyatt. And so Michael Hyatt comes from the publishing world. He published— oh, I can't remember his first name, but his last name is Miller. He talks a lot about story. He wrote the StoryBrand. Yes, StoryBrand. And his book, which I read, was called Blue Light Jazz. And then he moved from being an author to being kind of a StoryBrand specialist. And Michael launched his career. But Michael was a big-time productivity guru. And I remember, like, what I loved about what you were saying is how you kind of felt, like, inadequate or less than when it came to productivity.

And it—

and I felt the exact same way when I was part of Michael's community because I'm a productivity fiend. Like, nobody can produce more than I can when I get myself in the zone and start grinding it out. Like, I possess a lot of energy. I can be very focused. I can be very persistent and determined. And if you want to get into a throwdown fight about who can produce more, I will. I will die trying to beat you. And what I realized is that with that experience was that, well, number one, it was an unfair playing field because Michael Hyatt is not producing by himself. He is producing with a team. So he has social media specialists, he has platform managers, he has, you know, someone that's tracking his, his metrics and helping him with all of his video shoot. Like there's, I can't compete as a solopreneur with someone that's an entrepreneur like Michael, cuz he has administrative resources in terms of staff and in terms of revenue and all the things. As solopreneurs, we don't have that. So it took me actually a few years to realize that I wasn't gonna win when it came to competing with Michael Hyatt. But the thing that I walked away with also that I think you're speaking to, and I'd like your take on this, is, you know, the— there is— we are programmed to be productive. We are programmed to try to do more all the time. It's part of our biological evolutionary makeup, I think. But being productive for productivity's sake is a trap, and it's more helpful when you're productive on purpose, or maybe when you're productive for a specific purpose, as opposed to just being productive just to be productive. I don't know if that brings up anything for you, but I was hearing a little bit of that in your answer.

Oh, I agree completely, because when you feel like you need to be productive, I think you could even go into this tangents of busy work because you're being productive, like just doing, doing, doing and producing. But are you really producing something that moves you forward or something? In my, in my opinion, to me, the, the, the, the one metric is, is it really giving you joy? Are you, are you moving something forward? That you're aligned with fundamentally, purposefully? Is it meaningful to you? That really, to me, is the number one thing. Otherwise, you could be doing so many things. And especially in today's world that there's so much noise and there's so much even pressure to be constantly producing content and output, but are you really, is it making sense for you to, to, to produce all these things and to be keen on, on, on improving productivity for that purpose? So that, you know, it's just about always is about the relationship that you have with yourself and how are you nurturing that or maybe stressing yourself out unnecessarily. So that's, that's what I would say. Just be truthful, have a really open heart discussion with yourself as to what it is that, that you want to move forward.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think you nailed it when you said busy. Like, we, we conflate and confuse productivity with busyness. And a lot of us, and I, well, I'll just speak for myself because this was definitely true for me. Like, as someone that was often cheered or had an identity around being a productivity machine, being busy for busy's sake, like, What I, what I realized as I was burning myself out and blowing up by being busy is like busyness is not productivity. Busyness is busyness. And we wave that as a flag or wear it as a, you know, as a medal. Like, look at me, I'm so busy. And it's a, in some ways it's a really seductive way from hiding from the other thing that you're talking about. Like, what is busyness look like when you're busy or when you're productive towards something that matters is, is what I heard you saying. Like there's productivity for productivity's sake and there's productivity for something that matters. So for you, what's— because you also brought up metrics and I want to get into metrics here in just a second, but before we set that set that up. When you're thinking about being, producing on purpose or producing for a purpose, what's the purpose? What's your aim or aspiration? What's the thing that you're moving toward that productivity becomes a catalyst for?

Oh, I love that question because I just completed a training earlier this year because it was the new year and all of that with a coach that I really admire. Her name is Evelyn Weiss, and she talked about being self-guided and having your future self be that North Star and that you're working toward. And so you have a process, or I did at least, this process of really what is it that you want to walk toward in life. I mean, when like you're maybe 90 or 80, or maybe not even that far away, a year from now, what is something that, that I wish I will have accomplished or, or created for my life and for myself? And so that's what's moving me nowadays. And I feel that it's, it's gentle again, that word, because it just feels so authentic. It feels like, you know, it's not separate. Like my life is here and I have to produce this content for my work or for my project or for my endeavor, whatever it is, but rather it kind of, the two of them blend together. So that my life becomes the content kind of thing, uh, because that's what I'm striving to get at. And this is my journey from here to there. And so maybe I can document that and see, hey, I'm struggling with this, but here it is what I'm doing. And maybe produce that type of content from an authentic and heartfelt, but also something that I myself am I'm pointing at. I haven't mastered, I haven't yet figured it all out, but I'm walking along with everybody else, right? Because we're all, I guess, doing the same thing. So that's, that would be my purpose or my place from which I'm, I'm sort of walking toward and walking from at the same time. I don't know if that answered your question.

No, absolutely. I love, I love that. That's a, you, you, you used a couple of phrases and a couple of words that I think are really important. Like we are all becoming something, you know, who we, who we will be tomorrow is not going to be exactly the same as who we are today. And it's who we are today is not exactly the same as yesterday, but a lot of that emergence, a lot of that becoming is just it's happening kind of unconsciously and subconsciously, which at the same time involves a lot of just repeating today what I did yesterday, and I'll probably repeat most of it tomorrow. Because if you're not clear about where you're heading, then it's hard to come up with a plan. And so when you talked about that idea of future self, really resonated with me because I wrote a blog post years ago called Conspiring with Your Future Self. In other words, have an idea of what you actually are becoming and then have that person talk to who you are now.

Exactly.

And be like, what are the sunk costs that you need to let go of now so that you can become the person you want to become? What are the things that are missing, broken, or needs work now that you need to start working on to become that person that your future self will thank you for? I think that's a really powerful thing. But you also mentioned integrated, which is something I wrote about in my last book onward, you know, how do you, how do you move forward? How do you cultivate this emergence as a fully integrated whole, as a, as, as, you know, someone that is emerging based in and of itself, right? It's like integration is just, you are what you are. You are an integrated sufficient whole. As you continue to try to evolve or emerge into something slightly better. So those were just a couple of things that came up to me. I don't know if you have any additional reflections on that before I start hitting you up with metric questions.

Yes, I do. And I love those reflections that resonated with you, but also, there's something else. I think that the concept of the future self is so powerful as well, because we're constantly evolving. There's nobody out there, I don't think, that you're just a static person or energy. I mean, it's, we are never just to be stalling, right? So I, for example, I remember I spent 10 years of my life translating the teachings of Abraham Hicks into Spanish with their permission, of course. And eventually I started to view them, to view these teachings. It wasn't resonating as much anymore. I was starting to learn or see things from a different perspective. And I tried to pivot in my channel, and it was a huge community, almost 100,000 subscribers in my YouTube channel. And they weren't ready for a pivot. They wanted to continue to hear Abraham's translations. And I wasn't ready to continue anymore. And that's why I feel now that it's so important to always be shooting for that, your own North Star, because you're going to evolve. And if you, or like I did, was boxed, I had boxed myself into this, the Abraham voice in Spanish, that was me. I couldn't get out of it so readily and I couldn't even pivot in my channel. They weren't ready for it. So my point is, it is you who are evolving always to stick with that and it's okay and you can continue to shoot toward that and not let all the factors define you, but just your own self and your own aspirations.

Yeah, I, well, that's, uh, beautifully said. I mean, I, I, I, I'm a big believer in vocation. I think life is always speaking to us because it wants to speak through us and it, it wants us to step into our limitless potential and leverage all of our unique abilities to bring forth the difference only we can make. Um, and some, and sometimes that means you have to you have to make decisions that cut off things that have been important to you to this point. And not everybody's gonna be ready for that. Mm-hmm. You know, which is why they call it that part of the journey, you know, the wilderness. Like, you're gonna spend some time all by yourself in the wilderness wondering why you've been abandoned and forsaken by all the people that used to be around and supporting you. So I, Well, kudos to you for hearing the call of vocation, but also heeding it, even if it sounds like it might have been a little bit painful or a little bit lonely.

It was a lot of heartache. I can tell you that. But there's also something beautiful that emerged because eventually it was led to Substack and I'm loving the ability for you to create what's calling you now. And the community is incredibly supportive and it's just a lovely space that I wish it's kept that way for a long time to come.

Yeah, but we'll see. But there's always going to be another place to go. One of the beautiful things about Substack is if things change in ways that we personally are not happy with, we can take our, the community that we've created and take them, take them with us somewhere else. What you were just saying really ties beautifully into this idea of what— that you brought up earlier around metrics and something I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is false proxies. So, you know, we are creatures that are often driven by, I think, three major things: fear, uh, Fear, identity, and affiliation, or fear, status, and affiliation, right? We, we have anxieties about what's not known and about the future because it's uncertain. So oftentimes we make decisions based on our anxieties or our fears. We are status-driven creatures. We like to know if we're up or down and how we compare to other people or our our own expectations or other people's expectations. And we are driven by affiliation. You know, who are the people that believe what I believe and how do I define myself against all the people that don't believe what we believe? And so when it comes to measuring our progress, the metrics that you mentioned, I think sometimes it's really easy. Like you, you had this YouTube channel that where you had 100,000 subscribers, that's a metric. It's impressive. But you had to make a decision. Does it matter based on who I want to become now? And again, I'm just really inspired by the fact that you could say, actually, no, that doesn't matter to me right now because I want to go in this direction. And that means maybe I'm going to have to pivot or start over or say goodbye to some of these people or most of these people. But, you know, the thing about false proxies is we're, we're kind of seduced into measuring them because they're easy to measure. Like, it's, this is one of the things I worry about with folks that kind of blindly just join a Notes boosting program or chase Notes as like a growth tool, like a viral note. Is exciting and I get it, but is it really getting you closer to what you want? Or are you chasing virality for virality's sake? Are you boosting posts just for the sake of being boosted? As opposed to what we were just talking about, which is, I know, I know where I'm going now. I've defined the gap between where I am and where I want to be. And I've I made some decisions about what I, my best guesses, my best assertions for this is what I need to do now to start to get there. And if you're just chasing likes and followers and even subscribers, that might not be the best way to get where you want to go. So when you're, when you mentioned metrics and that this idea of false proxies makes sense to you, like when you made this pivot, when you changed platforms, what were the things that you were measuring to see if this new direction was resonating and if the messages that you were sending were attracting enough of the right people?

Well, I think we can all relate to what you're saying as creators. We obviously want that our work, uh, have some sort of reception and, and the following, ideally, of course, that it is such a wonderful feeling to, to see that maybe you're making an impact in people's lives and, and to receive those messages. I think to me, uh, when throughout my life in YouTube, receiving these messages, hey, thank you so much, this is really changing my life, or thank you for these beautiful messages that you're translating and making available for us, or whatever. That was my fuel. I have to say, that was my fuel. I lived for those moments. Of course, the message itself, when I believed in it completely, was just beautiful for me to be able to do that. But it's true. We're torn. And now, for example, here in Substack, uh, starting from zero, that, that is something that, that I feel myself sometimes wish, uh, oh, you know, it's growing too slowly. Uh, I wish it could grow faster. You know, you, I catch myself with that, but then again, as soon as I do, I, I am practicing practitioner of letting go. In fact, I am a trained facilitator for letting go, uh, in the Sedona Method, which is a beautiful method I had discovered. I've discovered in my spiritual growth, and I always tend to let that go and then center myself to what really is driving me. And is the ability to create, share from the heart, share authentically what has been working for me and what I know works or worked for a lot of my audience when I have met Spanish-speaking audience and return to that center. You know, it's, it's always a, something about this pull of, of like the ebb and the flow, you know, it's, it's the same thing. That's how I view it. Sometimes we get tempted by these metrics, but then in the end, I think we all realize those are secondary. The first thing is really, is this true to me? What I'm doing is the message that I'm creating and putting out really what I want to, that I want my legacy to be for. And that's what, again, brings me back to my center and grounds me again. And, and I guess that's the dance that sometimes we, we're taking and, and seeing all these notes that go viral. Uh, sometimes I, I write something and it has 1 or 2 likes and then some suddenly I see something so similar and it has 1,000 likes and it's like, what? But it's the same thing, you know? So you're always comparing. Oh my God. The mind is a comparing mechanism as a comparing junkie. And I think that really is the work, internal work, to just understand that the only real metric is yourself with yourself. How are you interacting with this journey? Are you really enjoying the journey? Because the destination it's a myth. Sometimes, I mean, yes, you're walking toward that North Star, but you never quite get there because by the time you, you've already walked some, maybe the North Star already moved somewhere else, right? So it's, it's a, it's moving target. So you might as well just, yes, use that as your guiding start, but enjoy the step, the little steps every single day. And that's, that's, that's really what I can tell you is when you realize you're comparing or, or feeling like you need to go viral or, or that really go back to it, let it go for just that second or just that moment. Go back to what grounds you. And then start again.

Love that. Well, that circles back to what we were saying earlier around integrity and, um, and then also the awareness of, of your actual intention, right? Like, I think for a lot of us that are purpose-driven and want to make a difference in the world, um, virality and reach and a huge number of impressions is not really required. Like we, we don't to have an impact, right? Is, is what you were saying. Having a note go viral is not an impact. It's, it's a momentary win of the lottery.

Exactly.

But after you've gone viral, like, how many of those people that saw your viral note were so profoundly changed by it that they actually made a meaningful change for the better in their lives? I would guess probably zero. And at the same time, when you are focused at what my friend and mentor Seth Godin calls the smallest viable audience, when you're really clear about These are the people I seek to serve. This is the promise I am making them. And this is the change that is on offer if they do the work, you know, that will facilitate that promise. It's probably going to start, number one, it will start with you. Then it will start with, I mean, if you get to 10 people, that's going to be, that you can have a huge impact. On a small number of people. And if you do that in a way that is remarkable, meaning it's worth making remarkable about, other people will— the people in their networks, like, it will have this ripple of influence. So in so many ways, it's the way I think about it is, um, and I think Seth Godin brings this up in his book, The Practice, when cowboys on the range are trying to get 1,000 head of cattle to move in a single direction, You can't get 1,000 head of cattle to move in a specific direction. What they do is they get— they try to influence 10 head of cattle, and those 10 head of cattle influence other heads of cattle within the herd. And by just that little tiny bit of influence, they actually enact this profound change in the entire direction of the mass, right? And so— That's beautiful. Yeah, it's, well, it's just a way, it's a way of, it's a way of thinking about it that makes you realize that you're probably having a much bigger impact than you think you're having already. It's also, in my experience, it scares a lot of people because now it's like, holy shit, now I'm on the hook because I actually am having an impact even when I don't go viral.

Right.

And now I'm responsible for that. And now I am responsible for— now that I see that, I can't unsee it. Like, now I'm kind of responsible for repeating this until I make the change in the world I want to make. And that could be— that, that I think in some ways that's more frightening than thinking that you're never going to have an impact at all, because there is that level of responsibility. That, you know, that comes into it. And that's a whole nother set of issues to navigate. Well, I wanna— we've successfully avoided talking specifically by name this idea of gentle productivity, although I think everything we've said speaks to the idea of gentle productivity. But I want to begin and wrap up with that part of the conversation. What is gentle productivity and what does it require and what impact has it had on the way that you think about the difference that you're making in the world?

To me, gentle productivity is being able to respect my own rhythms, my own fluctuating levels of energy without forcing myself. To work with me, not against my body and my patterns of energy, like I said, but above all, not to be hard or punish myself, to be gentle with my own nervous system. It's about really not breaking you, not breaking you inside. When you punish yourself, you didn't get enough to do checked in your checklist today or your to-do list. Not going through the busyness, but rather the meaningful. That, to me, is gentle, respecting that. And so I think there was a second part to your question. I— no?

Well, no, that's beautiful. Because again, it seems like we keep circling around this idea of integrity. Like, gentle productivity allows you to maintain the wholeness, the sufficiency of who you are, as you are pursuing who you are becoming through the difference that you want to make. And you do it without punishing yourself, breaking yourself, overextending yourself, burning yourself out, blowing yourself up. And it's a beautiful message and a beautiful idea because we are of no use to ourselves or anyone else if we destroy ourselves. In the name of productivity or busyness or trying to achieve impossible things. But if, if we do what we can with what we have, where we are, with the people that are around us, then we're always in, in this place where we can maintain the integrity of our assets, our, our energy, our attention, our time, et cetera. And we are, we are making a meaningful change for the better. It might not be dramatic. It might not appear heroic, but over time it compounds. And we do find ourselves making a huge difference and having a huge impact over time through the compounding effort of gentle productivity, as opposed to what most people see, which is like, holy cow, look what Patricia did yesterday. It's like, well, she didn't do it yesterday. She did it over the last 10 years. You just happened to notice it yesterday, right?

You're so right with that. And I think even if you don't have those large numbers, because I really, to me, there's less about those numbers and more about showing yourself authentically. Because if you do, no matter what, you are impacting somebody. You may not even know it. But just alone that you're being gentle and true to you, that alone is a lot because otherwise what good does it do if you're tormented inside, if you're always pushing yourself, you're always dissatisfied with what you're doing. It makes no sense at all to me. And, um, never underestimate the power that you might have coming from that position of, of, of really wanting to serve yourself and others. I remember when I had my YouTube channel, I didn't have that many, excuse me, that many subscribers when a young man from Cuba wrote to me an email saying that he had been contemplating suicide. And ever since he discovered my channel and my translations, because I would dub them, he started to listen and now he was actually finding joy in life again. And this was one person, uh, you know, to me, that was already extremely worthwhile knowing that one person now is joyful and is not contemplating on ending his life. So you never know. I mean, I'm lucky that he actually took the time to write to me, but I may not, I wouldn't have ever known yet the result was there. And maybe we're impacting people that way. We don't know. So, so the, the numbers, they're nice. Yes. But they're so irrelevant really, because when you know you've done your best, when you know you've done something that is lighting your heart and, and that is actually offering good in the world. Then that's the reward itself. And it may sound a little bit too woo-woo and Pollyanna, but you cannot control anything in any way. There is no way to control whatever, how people will react to you ever. You hope and maybe you're fortunate to get the feedback, but, uh, that may never come. So all you have is how you are relating with yourself in the process.

Yeah. That's a really important point. What, one of the things that I've come to understand just by virtue of the number of paid subscribers I have who who continue to renew or reinvest in that subscription month after month, year after year, who I never hear from. I never hear from them in the comments or the replies. They never show up for the call. Like, one-third of the people that pay for being a member of the Circle or Inner Circle community are people that I actually would recognize because they've shown up for a call or they're regularly participating in conversations. And it made— it was something that really bothered me for a while until I— but then one of my subscribers said, listen, I don't want to come to your calls and I don't want to comment on your things. I read it because it means something to me. It helps me. And that's why I keep like— and it was so it was like coming to terms with what I see is the value in what I do. Doesn't really matter. What matters is the value that other people are deriving from the content. And so what you're talking to reminds me of like most of the people that we have an impact on, we will never, we will never hear from, and we will never see the impact. And yet it exists. And, and like, your, your viewer from Cuba. Like, every once in a while you get a little, a little picture that, holy shit, this is working. And that has to actually be enough because that one person was speaking for probably tens or hundreds of other people that you, you'll never hear from. Um, it's, it's a really, it's a really powerful, uh, it's just a powerful thing to contemplate. And what I guess what I'd love to wrap up with, Patricia, is with that insight that you just kind of arrived at or just shared, you know, knowing that we probably will never fully see, and we certainly are not in control of the impact that we're going to have and are not going to bear witness to the full extent of the impact we have. What are the things or what is the thing that helps you persist? Like knowing that we're never going to fully see it to its full realization, at least the one that we have in our head, knowing that we're not going to see fully the impact it's having on a much broader community of people than are actually letting us know. How do you persist in the difference that you want to make, um, without all of that? Without all the metrics speaking to you and cheering you on? What's the thing that keeps you going?

To me, the one thing over the years I think has changed, but lately I feel that the one thing that really calls me is this inner sense that I want to express what I have inside, what I've learned through the years. What has been working for me in order to live with more ease and calm and all, you know, I used to, for instance, become very upset at things when things didn't work out the way I thought they were supposed to. And it would spiral me down into this frustration and anger and sadness or a lot of emotions. And through the years, I've been able to overcome that. And now, all I honestly can say, what's in front of me, it doesn't bother me either way or the other. I just take it as feedback and just continue to go anyway because I have this need or this calling to express or share what is doing me good, and hopefully it will do good to others as well. So that is to me something that's calling me constantly, the ability to maybe be of service, or at least the hope that I can be of service. And I also think maybe when I'm gone, my grandchildren, I don't have grandchildren yet, but hopefully I will someday. And they will get to read a little bit about their grandmother and say, you know, oh, this is what she was or believed. And that's something, of course, more personal, but that's, it's a neat thing for me to be able to think that they can probably learn about me through that. And really in the end, it's just about creating something like this, this, this north start calling me. So I'm shooting to, to, to get there someday and sort of documenting the journey and the process. So that's, that is, that is in a way, it's a kind of a selfish aspiration, but it isn't really because it really feels me to be able to, to have a sense of community and a sense of, you know, we're synergistically here, all helping each other and making ourselves, maybe just life, maybe just a little bit brighter. So, Yeah, that's really what caused me a lot. I, I, I try not to let the numbers be the driving factor. And when they are, I try to let go and, and just align again with what's important. And yeah, of course, the more people will see you, the more impact you can have. That's obviously true, but, um, you don't need to have a lot of people to make an impact. And, um, whatever is there at the moment, you can embrace and then go from there. And, and like you said yourself, everything is compounding. And by the time a year has gone by or 2 or more or 10 years, like I did with my YouTube channel, it went by anyway. And, and you continue to do your, your thing that you had to do that was calling you all along. So that's, that would be my answer. Just do what's, what's in your heart to do.

I love that. Well, we've been talking this whole conversation. The thread that I've heard is integrity, like the integrity of the work is the integrity, like the work is the work and the work matters because the work matters. And it, the metrics that other people might use to measure whether the, the extent of the impact matters less than the fact that you, uh, decided and dedicated yourself to making a difference that, that does matter regardless of the number of people. Like one of the things I write frequently about is legacy, like you were Just sharing about your desire that, you know, you'll be remembered by your grandchildren. You know, we're kind of trained to think that legacy is the money and monuments we leave behind, but it's actually legacy is the difference you made while you had a chance to make a difference. Oh, nice. And we don't know what the ripples of influence or impact are going to be going forward in the future. It might feel like not much in the moment we're in, but we don't know, even while we're still walking the earth, the extent of the impact. And we certainly don't know what happens after we're gone. So, yeah, that was a beautiful way to wrap it up. I really appreciate your time, Patricia. I appreciate you and your work. For those of you that are watching, be sure to click on Patricia's, uh, little Substack tag and check out her Substack and all the things that she's up to. She's doing amazing work. I really appreciate the gift of your wisdom and experience and what you've shared with us here today, Patricia. And for everyone that has arrived late or watching in replay, please drop a comment or let us know what takeaways, lessons, ahas you're going to move forward from this conversation. If you have questions, drop them in there as well. Thank you very much, Patricia. Enjoy the rest of your day.

I love Timmy being here today. Thank you.

All right, bye-bye.