Mastering the Art of Invitation: Secrets Revealed

Welcome everyone to a digital campfire for the Catalyst community of Substack subscribers, and indeed all Substack subscribers. Anyone that's subscribed to the Creative on Purpose, uh, Substack was invited to today's call where I am thrilled, pleased, privileged, and honored to be joined by one of our rockstar community members, Cato McNichol, who has much to say about the art of invitation. And, uh, so we're gonna talk a little bit about You know, why invitation? What does it mean to host a great conversation or a great connection or a great gathering? And Kato, I would love to have you kind of set the table and kick off the topic.

Oh yeah.

Oh, thank you, Scott Perry. One of the things that this got me thinking about is, you know, where did my sense of how to invite and make the community things happen, or you bring the people together and what is that purpose and where did that begin for me? And because I was working in theater, when I got hired by the first theater group that I worked with, we were doing original comedy about the experience of living with mental illnesses and about 80% of the troupe had some form of mental illness and we had to re— think how you would normally cast a play, gather a cast, what we were writing, what we were performing. And we started with the— it wasn't as simple as putting up a flyer and people would show up for the audition because of the people we were working with, uh, were not used to showing up or volunt— or thinking that, oh, that could be me. They were used to a world that was very different than the ones we had been in before, in, say, community theaters or college theaters or something. So we reinvented— we just turned it around, like, well, what we need to do is speak with people individually. We need to tell people why we think they'd be really good. And also, once we got there, to help take care of them through a process that they were very unfamiliar with. A lot of them had not performed. They perhaps had thought of it before but hadn't taken those steps because of the barriers that had been introduced throughout their, their lives. And we were asking them to do something scary, to be in public and performing, and what would that be like, and how to just put the process on its head and make it process-oriented, not product-oriented, create a system where we could help people get through the process, but if they needed to check out and not get to that point. We never wanted to have anyone go through the terror. If they were terrified in the moment, that we would rearrange whatever it was. We wouldn't force anyone out on stage. It wasn't about the show must go on. It's that we're all part of this show and we're going to do things together, and the audience will understand if something needs to change, even if it's at the last minute. And it was more about how we would communicate with each other and help. So that was beginning with that idea of how does the, the invitation change, the expectations around that, and also that it wasn't about some kind of end result. It was simply about finding different ways and different strategies to bring people in, and when people needed to leave or wanted to leave, to make that a simple process also. And that has become so much of how I think about invitation. So things like, oh, you know, sometimes you invite people to these kinds of rooms or whatever the event is, and people just don't show up. But it's kind of like, all right, but you continue going and you figure out, well, what's another different strategy? Or what did work and what didn't? How do we get to that place of interacting one-on-one or those small invitations and you make small progress. And what's come up for me recently is I've undergone a career change moving from theater and performing arts into writing and creating picture books, which I solidified on about 15 or 16 months ago through a course I was in called Children's Book Pro. And what I decided to do was I would just set a time and a day and I was going to have a Zoom room open for an hour. And we could have a homeroom and anybody— and these students were from different parts of the world. I knew it wasn't good for the people in Australia, but there was no way I could accommodate people in England and Australia and all the things. But sometimes I did divide up and did a different one for the people in Australia, and I got them going on their own group. But the, the rest of them, I would just set a day and a time and tell— and anyone was invited. And eventually And people were showing up, but they'd come for a bit or not stay, or— but some did, and we stuck and then wanted to keep going. And I was also very aware now that I was making this change as a playwright and a theater artist, I had accidentally over many years of working through things and doing groups created a community that was so valuable to my growth as an artist. And doing this change-up, I wanted to have a community like that, but I was going to accelerate it because I was going to do it on purpose. And I was going to begin with, who is sticking in these conversations and how will we stay together? First, I'll find out if they even want to. Maybe they don't, and that's okay too. And it was kind of about— and if it wasn't okay, then I would find people either in my local community to meet live, or what would those things be? And I started experimenting with different options. Now I'm involved with some live groups in person in my community, and I'm involved with this online group where we've called— we call ourselves the Wolf Criers. And we've just started the newsletter. And now we're trying to build a communal audience because we've become quite a group of people who've decided to stick together. The people who stuck are sticking together. But it took a bit of just casting and inviting. And always being— just continuing to invite and knowing some people would talk about how much they wanted to come but wouldn't actually show up. And that's okay too. And not about a guilt trip, it's just simply about, oh, learning that about yourself. When I was a high school drama coach, the same thing. I was like, I'm working with people at a time in their life when they don't know how much, uh, time is limited. They can't do all the things. They can't be on the track team and on the swim team and be in the play. Or I can make accommodations and figure out how to work that with them, and then we would consciously work out Well, let's really look at your schedule and let's see what you have time for. And let's talk about what is impossible and get them thinking in those ways. So for me, the invitation is always something that evolves and changes. And I have to be okay with people don't show up. That's not actually me necessarily, but I can change my tactics and strategies and what am I offering and examine, well, could this be better or might it be better if I simply just asked a couple people to really— will you, will you show up, you're a friend of mine, will you be in this room with us for a bit, will you come here and do this with us, I really love your presence— and how it can just build in those ways. So that's what was— as I was thinking about this topic, I thought I'd set the table with those kinds of stories and then we could begin a conversation about You know, where are you at with invitation? And, you know, what are— because sometimes, you know, what are those different processes and what have people found in what you've been doing and trying to make as you're working through things? And that's always one of those things I love about you, Scott Perry, too. I love how you try different things because I'd see you doing it. I was like, that's so smart, because you're really— you're very good.

I don't know about smart.

Well, it's quite a good strategy.

Yeah, I appreciate that very much. And I, and I love the context around how you've been thinking about this. Just to lend a little bit of my own kind of table setting to, to the conversation. I put out a, uh, blog post about the art of invitation, and it led to one of the richer discussions that we had on one of our Monday or Friday calls. And actually, Cato was a big contributor to my thinking that I needed to actually do a second post on this because Cato has like specific tactics, uh, and you know, just things that— a little trick bag of things that she does to invite people to share a little bit more about themselves. But part of the reason why I'm interested in this topic has to do with, um, the— is adjacent to the things that we've talked about. And some of you, uh, well, half of you have, um, you know, worked with me on your business, your marketing approach, and so forth, that this whole idea of be a blessing marketing, right? Because what, um, what the digital, digital world has made available in terms of getting the word out about what you do is it has, it has created a lot of tools and tactics, things that are built on pressure, that are built, and sometimes manipulation, right? So the whole idea of clickbait, right? To have hooky, catchy headlines that convince people to read the next line or to click the button or what have you. So there's, and things like countdown timers and, all the things that we see that make some of us feel uncomfortable about marketing because we think that that's the only way. And I assert that marketing is simply the art of telling true stories to people that need to hear them so their lives can be enhanced by the work that you do. And it— you can get people to connect with your work through false urgency, manipulation, false scarcity, uh, pressure tactics, and so forth. Or you can do what has always worked, even before there was digital marketing. There was still marketing That is to be authentic, sincere, generous person who is respectful of other people's time and attention and, and be more invitational as opposed to manipulative or high pressure. And so rather than leaning on pressure, You can lean— invitation is a reminder that oftentimes the best connections, the most authentic connections, the connections that endure and lead to the change that you want to make are the ones that involve presence. And so this art of invitation is something worth considering, not just in— it's worth considering just in your everyday life and your, the the everyday conversations that you have, maybe with your spouse, maybe with your friends and family and so forth. But in your business as well. And one of the things that— because I'm a complete weirdo and a complete nerd, of course, I know a little bit of the etymology of the word invitation. And it comes— our word invitation comes from the Latin invitare. And yes, it means invitation. Um, but it also means to entertain and, or to treat. And I love that idea of, because it leans into the edge that we know works really well to build authentic, meaningful connection, which is delight people. You don't have to overdeliver way more than you promised someone, but when you, when you treat them in a way that fills them with delight, that where they experience delight, where they have a delightful experience because of the way that you treat them, you have a much better chance of having a, a more rewarding, longer-term relationship. So, and I guess maybe just one, one other frame around the table setting piece is, you know, why I think think about connecting through invitation rather than, you know, power offers or calls to action or clickbait or any of the other choices that we have is another favorite topic of, of Cato's and mine is how can it be more fun, right? Invitation, because it can create delight, because it is built on a more human-to-human rather than business to customer is number one, more fun, because when you think about what do you usually get invited to, usually get invited to dinner parties, birthday parties, anniversary parties, whatever, invitations to weddings. But that the idea of, you know, invitation and its normal association with kind of fun gatherings, um, is also a way of— I can't remember if it's rule number 6 or rule number 9, whatever it is from The Art of Possibility, um, but the rule is stop taking yourself so damn seriously. And by thinking about connecting with people through invitation as opposed to all the other ways that we might witness on the internet that look like they work, that we're told that work, but don't make us feel very good, make our stomach churn a little bit. The alternative is this, not don't take yourself so damn seriously and be a little less transactional, a little bit more invitational, which tends to be a faster path to a deeper, more meaningful connection with the people that you want to talk with. So that's my, my table setting. Uh, any reflections on any of that, um, Cato? And then maybe we could get into some of the, um, kind of the tactical things, the ways that we can be a little less transactional, a little more, uh, emotional.

Well, on the delight end, actually, I was just reading about this in my notebook. I was going through some notes that I had for things and I came across my, my notes on delight because and enchantment, and how delight and enchantment work together, and how the things I'm trying to do right now are linked to that, especially the children's books with enchantment, and that's one of my guiding principles. But the delight aspect, I once heard— where delight kind of came into my consciousness was I was at a talk at one of the Dramnus Guild conferences a long time ago in Chicago, and David Ives, who I think He writes comedies, primarily one-act comedies, and someone had asked— he said, "One time someone asked me why I write comedies, and I said, 'Well, my wife is made of sunshine, and I write to make her smile.'" And I was like, "That's the best thing." And coincidentally, around the same time, one of my friends that I work with— we would produce each other's plays quite a bit and help each other develop our work and make it better— Mike McGuire had said that one of his customers, because he works full-time as a waiter during the big seasons and then takes time off to write and do plays in the winter, but one of his customers who was in marketing said, "Oh, I'll give you some really great advice. It's not what you do, it's how you make people feel." And I know that we've heard this before, but we decided to put this into action the next time we were doing our plays. By making sure we spoke to all the people who came to our play readings in the audience, and we would introduce ourselves and find out who they were and what got them to— inspired them to come, especially the people we didn't know. And then we would try to connect them to people in the room with other people and let them know who they were sitting near, because we did know some of the people, and then we could get them involved in this kind of community. And it started changing how people were showing up at our place in a very interesting way that was good for us. But also, and as I'm a shy person, when I'm on stage, it's not a problem. But when I'm one-on-one with people, that was difficult for me to do. And I forced myself to do it the first bunch of times and eventually became something that I just do naturally as I practice doing it, because I came up with different tactics, which is some of the things you had brought up when you were alluding to about some of these things. That's part of why I started learning those, those things to have tactics to use in order to do this thing that was incredibly uncomfortable for me to do. But I also needed to seem at ease while I was doing it. But I'm a very good actor. It no longer requires acting, like as far as creating the character who's going to come. And I created a character who was in the room being this other kind of person that would be good at that. And, but now it's something I do naturally. And also I find out the most interesting things about people, in part because I'm like, this might go this way or that way, or who knows what's going to happen, but I at least want to have a good time while I'm talking with people. And to get people talking to each other is part of what underpins that. So that's what made me think of, especially with delight, because it is delightful to start doing that, to find the delight and encourage that, stoke that, and bring that forward with people. So that sometimes people that becomes this thing that they're like, that was so, that was so fun to be in the room with them. And they, they remember that too. So, so we can open that.

Well, it reminds me a little bit of, I had a client, um, that I worked with last year or the year before, Sally, um, Her coaching is built around the idea of the art of fascination. And I— fascination is another great word, but just to build a little bit on what Cato was just saying, because one of the things that Cato opened with was this idea that by being more invitational and less transactional, you are less attached to your expectations of like, what do I want to get out of this? Um, and that idea of fascination also encourages and, and is adjacent to the idea of curiosity. Like for, for those, a lot of the folks on this call are kind of more at the beginning of, you know, this building their business and inviting their audience, you know, people from their marketplace into their ecosystem, into their world to learn more about them and what they do.. And it can be a very anxiety-ridden thing to host your first training on Zoom or to host your first community call or what have you. But when you had that posture of invitation, and speaking to what Kato was just talking about this, like, I would like, like, I'm curious, I want to learn more about you. Tell me more about you. Now, You can't be curious and anxious at the same time. So it's immediately a way of putting yourself in that mindset that will encourage the posture of— to reference the Be a Blessing approach, you know, of being generous about sharing your insights, about delivering value, about not holding anything back in the hopes that people will pay you for more. But by just, you know, being that kind of genuine, curious type of person that's fascinated by the way other people engage in, you know, their lives and in their work, you just become— it's a very easy way of attracting more of the right people into your world without having to try so hard.

I got to say, this is a quick story about curiosity and how it took me far and I had no idea because Through a magic series of circumstances, Paula Vogel took us to see mediums in Florida when I was with her, and my medium said, "You must go back to college." And I was like, "What?" And then I told Paula Vogel, I said, "How'd it go?" And I said, "Well, this weird thing was in the middle." He shouted, "You must go back to college." And she said, "Brown has a program, Return to Undergraduate Education. You must apply. I will help you." I was like, "All right." And so I applied just because Paula said to do it, and she was really intent. And I had not finished my original college thing back in the day, back when I was college age. And I was like, well, I won't get in. But I did get an interview. I was getting this interview with this dean because of the program I applied for. Only 4% get in. And they have this dean interview because they only fit 3 people to this particular program. And so I was like, well, I'm going to get to know how this man became a dean. And he was a Black man who was a dean. It's got to be a fascinating story at Brown University. And so I looked him came up, Googled him, and then we had this conversation because I'm never going to talk to him again, so I may as well find out. We'll all just have fun. And then I got in, which was not anything I thought was even possible because I was so relaxed because it was like, well, anyway, so that's where curiosity can lead sometimes. And I was like, what a cool thing. So anyway, that's when you were saying that I couldn't believe that the magic door opened because I was just like, let's find out how you did your thing.

I just say that. And I think it was— I learned this from you, Scott Perry Perry, that when you bring up curiosity in people, when you create the curiosity, that's like the first step to building trust, which fits, I think, with Kato's story that you just told. Because there's something that happens when you're being just, you know, you go in with, you had an intention, you weren't overattached to the outcome, and look what happened. I mean, that's what I'm hearing listening to you.

So any, I mean, Cato and I can riff on, you know, kind of tools and tactics to create more invitational opportunities or how to craft invitations. But any reflections from you all on, you know, how you think about invitation, how you try to cultivate that or questions that you have about, like, how, you know, elements of your business where you would like to, to try to weave in a little bit more invitational kind of approach.

Are you talking to all of us?

Yes.

Okay. I like what Penny just said. Don't be overattached to the outcome. That's key. I really like that.

That applies to everything in life, just right. It's, it's— the Buddha says that attachment is the root of all suffering, and expectations and attachments, um, can only conspire to get it, help you get in your own way and remain stuck where you are. So that, you know, one of the things about invitational, uh, type of an invitational approach is you are, you are, you are creating a moment. You're inviting someone to participate in a moment with you, which means you both have to show up, you both have to be present, which means that you can't actually be thinking too much about your expectations and attachments about what's going to happen in the future, because it's happening right now. Um, and so good advice. Uh, you know, we all think of Penny as, as being, um, the next Buddha in line of succession, so, um, she's just, uh, sharing the party line, I guess.

So I have some questions and I need some clarification, and I'm pushing back also because how is an invitation not transactional? Because you make an offer and someone accepts it or they don't. So to me, that is a transaction. And so I don't understand how you mean make an invitation but don't be transactional. So That's one question. And then my other is, which I told Scott, I don't know, last month, I think that he just bashes digital marketers. And I was a corporate digital marketer for 3 years, and I did not put out clickbait or false urgency or false scarcity. And my job really was to create awareness for our products and to educate, you know, the people who were buying it, demonstrate what we could do. And so every time I hear this conversation about these terrible digital marketers, I'm like, but that's not true. So I have a whole different perspective on digital marketers. So I don't know who the digital marketers are, that do these terrible things unless they are the digital marketers who are marketing to, you know, sole proprietors or, you know, people who are coaches or whatever that use all these tricks and, you know, nefarious tactics. But so I see digital marketing completely different.

I'm happy to go, Kato, unless you want to go first.

Me?

Okay.

So I'll answer that. I'll address, um, I'll address the— address them in reverse order. So I'm not bashing digital marketing or all digital marketers. I do digital marketing. I could be— when I'm doing digital marketing, I'm a digital marketer. What I do, um, what I do point out and what I do offer alternatives to are, and I can see from some heads nodding, like we've all experienced this, this, this, you know, the clickbait, the countdown timer, the email that comes after the course launch is over that says, oh, we had a technical glitch. And so we're going to keep it open for another month. Like, there, there are— in any domain, there are good actors and there are bad actors. And sometimes the good actors act like bad actors, and sometimes the bad actors act like good actors. So it's not— I, I make, I make fun of digital marketers, I make fun of coaches, uh, because— and I am both, or, or am both at different points in, in my day, um, but not in toto, but only, only toward— only in those moments when, when the, um, the tool and tactic and strategy is coming from a place of pressure, manipulation, tricking, hacking your way to, uh, to get a sale. So, um, I'm not going to name names. I mean, I, I think if you, if you get on Facebook or, um, YouTube or LinkedIn, you can, you can see plenty of examples. If you're on, if you're on LinkedIn, LinkedIn has been totally taken over by shitty digital marketers because just look at your inbox and you will see all sorts of messages that come from digital marketers that are leveraging this tactic, this direct marketing tactic that no longer works because everybody's sick of being— having their inbox spammed up by these, you know, hey, let's connect. Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to fill my network with more people like you, and, um, I would love to get on a call and talk to you about your SEO or your YouTube channel or whatever it is. So just to be clear, not making fun of digital marketing. Digital marketing is necessary. Marketing is necessary. Digital marketing is necessary. Traditional marketing is necessary. The invitation to get to our topic is to be one of the good ones, or to at least be one of the good ones more often than one of the bad ones. And I say all of this as someone that has, that has tried and done some crappy, hacky, tricky digital marketing things because I was convinced by one of those nefarious digital marketers, Jackie, to do something because it's the only way that it's going to work. One of the best ways to tell if the digital marketer is a scam artist or, or one of the good ones is if the language is dogmatic, run away. If they tell you that email marketing is dead, run away. If they tell you that email marketing is the only way to market, run away. You know, whenever, whenever someone says that there's only one way to to be successful at something, be assured that you are talking to one of the bad ones in terms of digital marketing. And then it ties into the other question, Jackie. There's a difference between transaction and— I, I, I am asserting that there's a difference between a transaction and being transactional. If you are I, I would say that you are correct. Like, if I invite you to something, I— that is a form of transaction. I'm saying, hey, do you want to come in here and check out what's going on? Um, I am asking you for— to invest the precious, precious gift of some of your time and attention and energy. However, transactional would be to tie into what we're just talking about is if I have a very specific agenda or outcome in mind that will benefit me, that's a, that's transactional. And the distinction between invitational and transactional in my mind, as I'm defining it, is that when I am in a, in a place of invitation, I'm not— I have no transactional outcome in mind. I am prepared to let whatever happens happen, and I trust that I will be able to figure out What's the best thing to happen? Like, what's the, the next best step? Sometimes that will lead to an invitation to jump on a call and talk about a coaching relationship if I feel that that is the best. Um, but more often, the posture of invitation If you maintain that all the way through a conversation or through an extended portion of a relationship, it's the other person that will invite you to share how you can help them rather than you inviting them to have a conversation about how you can help them. The whole point of Be a Blessing Marketing is to never have to get on a sales call. Because sales calls are obviously transactional. Um, the whole point is to show up and deliver value and be generous and be grateful for the investment of someone's time, attention, and effort, uh, so that they, through it, through inception, they realize, you know what, if I want to have, if I want to catalyze clarity about my destination, clarity about my path, earn confidence that I can get there and collapse time to target it, I should probably invite Scott to tell me a little bit more about what coaching with him might look like. I never have to be transactional. I never have to put out a countdown timer or share false scarcity around how many seats there are or have a false, a false deadline to try to get to force people to buy. Instead, I could just continue to be present, do great work and let that great work speak for itself and the right people will eventually invite me to work with them. Does that make more sense, Jackie?

Yes, thank you for the clarification.

Absolutely happy to do it.

Okay, though.

Oh, go ahead, Penny.

You could have been— I'll be quick, Kato— that you could have been describing fundraising. That is exactly fundraising, what you just described. And if we change it the way you're suggesting, where we're more of a blessing than we— and giving people options to participate or to do what they choose, like to be coached by somebody. That's totally the way. If you hear, oh, you are needed, your money is needed because these animals are going to die or starve if you don't. That's getting your guilt. That's slimy as far as I'm concerned.

Well, one of the things that, that I do want to— curious about, and the second part of invitation for me, or sometimes the— or it's, it's in an early part, and this comes down to like saying hello and meeting the people in the audience, uh, one at a time, is often these tactics that I came up with for getting people to tell me a story about a choice they made. And I usually do that through asking about either something they're wearing or if they're at a particular event, what brought them there. That's the first thing. And then asking about something in particular that was some kind of choice that, first of all, can start with just like, wow, that caught my eye. That's a really catch— is there a story with that? And getting people speaking to me about that. And it often— I just find that people sometimes, probably half the time actually, people are so flattered. Not flattered, flattered is not quite the right word. It's like that I noticed something and there is a story in it, and it's a deep, usually a deeply personal story. So some kind of jewelry or some whatever the thing is, or the choice of the shoe. Or I told a guy one time I was on the way out of a a tasting room pub thing, and he was wearing this amazing— it was very simple, simple-lined jacket, leather. I was like, this jacket is amazing. And his, I don't know if his wife or girlfriend just said, he loves this jacket. And she had this whole thing about like, because it was Italian and he had taken such care and he spent so much money on it. And I was like, that was worth every penny.

Every penny.

'Cause he just was so alive in it too. And so those kinds of things help connect. And then, and this curiosity that brought me there, like I'm asking it genuinely. And then the story is always so fun to connect with people in that way. And it, yeah, and it just helps people set at ease. And then we told each other some kind of, or they mostly tell me a thing. They assume— people assume I'm busy. I don't know why. I guess when I'm at the show and I'm director, I am kind of busy. But they always think it's a little too much to go the other way. And also, I don't have an expectation that they're going to ask me back. I hear a lot of people say, oh, I asked them really good questions and they never asked me anything. And I'm like, I'm always kind of relieved if they didn't ask me anything. And I'm more curious about— and it's not a transaction like, and now you're going to ask me something so I can tell you my interesting interesting story. It's not so I can tell you an interesting story other than right now today, but, but, uh, it— I, I'm totally happy if, if I don't get a question back, or— but I'm hoping I can help connect you or help you feel at ease in some way in this place where you've come into. And, uh, yeah, I don't know if that's helpful or not, but Jackie, I'm curious, what are you also coaching Who here's coaching? And you kind of coach and okay, I was just curious who the coaches were.

So I don't know if you were, uh, if you noticed, Kato, but I, I used your, I jiu-jitsued your, your move when, before we started recording, because when we, when it was just you and I, I asked you about your necklaces and then we got into this whole conversation about Thor's hammer and Alexander the Great and cool podcasts and so The other one was— yeah, perfect.

I didn't even tell you why I got this one though. I realized I was like, oh, I didn't complete the story. If I'd been just not talking to Scott, I would have— because, because a friend got me a mug a couple years ago that said, always be yourself unless you can be a Viking. And I was like, that's good advice. And I was like, I've always wanted one, and I found one finally.

So funny. One of my older son's girlfriends First girlfriend's— that was her saying. She'd say whenever she was about to do something strenuous or hard or difficult, she would say, "Viking blood," because she had some Viking blood inside her or whatever. It was just a way of tapping into her courage. Um, just one additional quick reflection because I was reading something Um, I've mentioned, uh, Joseph Robertson, who writes for the Guardian Academy, um, but also has his own publication called Growing Trees. And just this morning I was reading something of his about writers, and, you know, I was picking on writers a little bit, um, on yesterday's call, I think. Um, but it all speaks to the, the The Identity Trap, which is the, the Identity Trap is when you are overinvested in attaching your identity to what you do, right? And so it's like, oftentimes when I'm working with someone, they describe what they want to do and it's coaching, but they don't, they don't want to be a coach because there's so much baggage around the idea of coaching at this moment because there's so many Just like digital marketers, there's so, so many coaches and there's so many people doing it badly. You know, so many people that won't be doing coaching 5 minutes or 5 years from now. And so they, they, they spend a lot of cycles trying to come up with a, like, I'm gonna be a wayfinder, I'm gonna be a guide, I'm going to be a consultant. I'm going like, so that there's like coming up and it's like, okay, but there are people that are looking for a coach. And if you're not gonna own up to being a coach, they can't, like, they can't find you. But what Joseph was saying in this article around writing is he was basically disassociating his identity from the fact that he is a writer while he's writing. And when he's not writing, you know, he doesn't have to like cling to the writer identity. And so he doesn't, and he's a fantastic writer. I mean, he's, a very extraordinary writer, copywriter, um, and all that. Um, but he doesn't like that. He is like, he's like me. Like I, all my life I've been a father first, a husband. I'm sorry, husband first. Don't let my wife know that I let the boys slip in there ahead. Husband, father, teacher, musician was, was my identity for a number of years. And I did it on purpose. In that order to remind myself, like, you know, people say your kids have got to come first. It's like, no, they don't, because my wife came first. And after my kids are gone, it's just gonna be me and my wife. And so therefore, she remains number one all the way through. But just, you know, that to Jack's point earlier, like, when I'm, when I'm marketing, I'm a marketer. When I'm coaching, I'm a coach. When I'm talking with my wife, I'm a husband. And when I'm taking a nap, I'm a napper. I mean, it's just something that I'm doing. But the flip side for me has always been, how do I be— how do I maintain being this fully integrated person so that I don't have to be like, I wake up in the morning as Scott Perry husband, but then I go to work writing, and then I'm Scott Perry writing— writer, and then I have some coaching calls, so I'm Scott Perry coach. And then I go to the studio and teach guitar lessons, so I'm Scott Perry guitar teacher. And then I have a gig later that night, and I'm Scott Perry musician. And then when I come home, you know, I'm Scott Perry husband again. At a certain point, I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to be the best Scott Perry I can be all damn day. So when I am writing, I am the best damn Scott Perry I can be who happens to be writing. And when I'm coaching, I'm the best damn Scott Perry I can be who just happens to be coaching right now. And it's really helped me tie myself in knots around the various things that I do and, you know, how invested I am in that part of my identity. So I invite you all to, you know, just like consider like, how are you thinking about yourself and how, as you move through your day to day and doing all the things that you do and, and in the, all the relationships you're in. So anyway, I got a little riff-ranty there. Sorry about that. I do that sometimes. Scott Perry riff-ranter is probably the overarching identity.

Put that on a business card.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I know somewhere in one of these books where I keep— where I'm talking with you, I know it was like a couple months ago, I did write a little like word balloon coming out of my little cartoon version in my book that said, oh my God, maybe I'm a coach. As far as how I help people and do things, but Um, with, with some of this. And like, so I started thinking, when am I a coach? I guess I'm kind of being a coach, um, with some of this. One of the things I did just find in my notebook while I was trying to find that though was a little place where I wrote invite synthesis. Because right now I've been looking at like, what are the different aspects of creative choices? And also how do we make things? And how do we become the thing that is exceptional? And, or the thing like, because it's when you've taken the old things and you put you put the two things together and you make the synthesis, and that's what's extraordinary. So there are two known things, and then that's what you do and that's what you make of it. So I think that's part of like what we're talking about with some of this, especially with marketing, because you want to be able to, you know, not be that clickbaity, and you don't want to be the thing that somebody— that we recognize as marketing in some ways, right? So it's what is genuine, what is the offer, But what's that extra little zhuzh? That's you. That is the delight that you're gonna bring. In part because some of what I was thinking about as I was reflecting on what we might speak about and what I would bring to this conversation today was when I was the Director of College Relations at the National Theatre Institute, I was looking for a very specific student. I put risk, fail, risk again on the poster, and even though I had to fight for for it to get that phrase on there. And then the opening of the thing was one of the book that I made was I tried to make, I take a lot of photographs and I would try to get things of two of the students doing stuff together. And they were always, one was looking at the other, the other was doing like how they were connected. So it wasn't like we're in dialogue and we're facing each other. It was always one is like, oh, And the other one's somewhere interacting, but behind or to the side or whatever those things are and that intensity. And I was looking for a very particular student. The first thing on the first page was like somebody looking really intense and said, "Are you serious?" Because we were looking for this very particular kind of person that wanted to be in a 7-day-a-week program. You're not going to sleep much. You're only going to do the work here. We're going to create an ensemble and you're going to make work you never could have imagined. And you're going to make it with this group and how that synthesis worked. And I would collect, I would make the students come together, but I also didn't want 1,000 applicants. I didn't want everybody. And I think a lot of you are asking those same questions and how are you going to get, you know, everybody, it's easy to say, well, get better clients, which I have heard in these rooms before. But, you know, but it's easier said than done. How do you find those? And what is that? And I'm curious, like, are any of you on that journey, like that invitation of how do you find that better next?

So you're asking, how do we find— like, are we on that journey of finding the people we resonate with? Kato, is that what you're asking?

That might be it. Or, or I was thinking, you know, what is— because we're always talking about, well, how does it— how do you amp it up? What is the better next? And, and how do you invite that? How do you find that? And are there things to put together in that synthesis between you— what is marketing language, what are the tools that are available? But yeah, it could be what exactly you said too. Scott's better at doing this than I am.

You're fine. No, you're good.

Um, he's better at taking what people say and turn it into a sentence or two, and I'm like, it's good.

Um, What was I going to say? Well, I've invited people who are therapists and other helpers to my Facebook group, and I'm finding people are resonating with what I'm saying about— so I had this workshop earlier today, Diversifying Income Streams. Elizabeth came, my business partner came, and me. And, uh, but there was a lot of interest in that topic and people emailed me and want the replay and they're resonating with it and they're chatting about it and they're posting on Facebook and the Facebook group about what they offer and it's growing and people are talking to each other. And I'm finding that that group, because I have another one that people aren't talking very much in, but this one is growing. They're resonating with the topics. Yeah, it's exciting. I'm excited. So I can't wait till, you know, later today I'm going to start to edit. I'm going to get it done quick and I'm going to post it, you know, the replay. But I don't know if that answers your question, but that's what I'm doing.

That's cool. I find that exciting.

I am excited.

What Pano's question was there? Was it a question? I don't know.

I said it with a slight uplift at the end, which implied there was a question.

Okay.

There was an implied question. Other than that. And also what you were just saying, Bree, it's like, here, here's what I think is the most, the greatest invitation of all is to become the person that you wish to become. And that can only happen— like, becoming is an action. Becoming is an emergent activity. You can't— and Jackie, I'm not bashing people that meditate or Buddhists or anything, but I mean, this whole idea that you, you're going to like get your mindset right so that you can become the per— like, the mindset, mindset does nothing if there's not an action. I would argue that proceed— like, I am on record many times saying posture informs mindset, not the other way around. If you want to become the kind of person that thinks a way that gets you closer to the things that you want in life, start acting like that person. I don't mean fake it till you make it, but be the kind of person that microsteps their way into their potential. Because without getting like full-blown woo-woo on all this stuff, I mean, we are limitless creatures because it is a limitless universe, and we are just expressions of the cosmos. It's limit— limitless, and, uh, and have all the potential that everything else in the cosmos has. And but you won't realize that until you start to explore the edges of your understanding and ability. And as you do that, you become the kind of person that shows up and the case that Bree was just sharing, you know, half a shade braver, half a shade more experienced, half a shade more confidence that they can figure it out then as they go. And your, your becoming is going to result from and will emerge from this, these little, the series of small steps that you take into possibility and potential. And to tie it back to the Invitational part of it, why, why is it more attractive to us to listen to a digital marketer who tells us that if we use red call-to-action buttons, we'll get a 5% better click rate and get more people to our thing. Like, why are we pursuing more at all? After our existential needs are met, what's most important? Belonging and safety. And we find safety in belonging. And so therefore, one of the things that we're most afraid of is rejection. And that's just primal. Because if back in the good old days, if you got rejected from the tribe, that you were done. You know, Cato's thing is the Wolf Criers, uh, society club, whatever it is. This idea of about the lone wolf— lone wolves die. Lone wolves all alone in the wilderness cannot survive. That's why they run in packs, because packs are safer. Packs create the belonging and safety that wolves need to succeed out in the howling wilderness. And so going back to also the idea that we were talking about earlier around non-attachment to outcomes and expectations and so forth. If we can make our invitation, invitations without attaching our identity as successful solopreneurs or whatever to how many people show up or how many people we're coaching, we will eventually actually just simply start to attract more than enough people to sustain our businesses or to create thriving communities. Because your mindset is kind of like, that's how you think about yourself. But your actions are an expression of who you really are. It's the difference between values and virtue. You can say, oh, I value honesty and justice and truth and all that kind of thing. But if, you know, you're out there acting like one of those nefarious digital marketers, then, and people see that, are you trustworthy and honest and just? Well, that's why the Be a Blessing process I would argue works so well because it's so different from what everybody is seeing right now. And so, yeah, it takes time for people to trust me enough to actually subscribe or join a call or whatever, cuz they're used to— they think I'm just showing up like the typical digital marketer trying to trick someone into paying me $9 a month or whatever. But over— if you show up at a frequency and commit to a frequency and a way of being in the world over time, that activity compounds. And so that whole idea of a you know, emergence and how invitation works and all that. It just, everything becomes a naturally occurring side effect or effect of just showing up, being the best person you can be, being generous, being grateful, doing your best to delight the people that you're with. Yeah. The flywheel. Exactly right. Any, any last questions?

Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you.

Well, because you used the word woo-woo, Scott Perry, that made me think earlier, but as I was Thinking about invitation is, and I think I had shown you 'cause I was upstairs one time on my little computer, my larger room, the living room, is like, it's called, what is it called? Lion's mane yellow, but it's really kind of this sienna orangey color. And while I was doing it, I was conscious 'cause I had just read Big Magic. So I was like inviting the genius to come live in the wall with this color 'cause I knew that the genie would not be able to ignore this color. And what— because if you've read that book about how the genius is something, an entity that moves through you, and it can come live in your walls, and if it feels happy there, it stays. And the whole genie thing and genius— and I was evoking as I was putting the paint on, you're invited in, you're invited here. And when I'm doing my deeper thinking or I'm reading and putting things together, I do it in that room when the light is coming in in a certain way because it's so bright and beautiful in there. And anyway, see, even that, everything's an invitation. And it's just whether we're picking up the shiny thing and asking and seeing each other in it. Because that's the— and Seth Godin talks about that, that seeing and the inviting the other to speak and to exchange. What is that? And it is an exchange of sometimes information, sometimes it's transaction. A different kind of transaction, or that other— the ideas from the book The Gift about the gift economies and how those things function. But that everything's an invit— everything can be an invitation. The color on the wall, the things we choose, how we move through the world invites something. So anyway, and thank you all for being here. I very much appreciate it on such a lovely day.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just to, to, to that idea of receptivity that Kaito was talking about. That's the first of the three rules that, that I, uh, put in the middle of the, uh, stepping into possibility or the start with who post receptivity, restraint, and responsibility. But when Kaito is painting her wall that color, that color is a reflection of who she is. So the, the invitation is to is, is for genius to come into Cato's room because this is a reflection of who Cato is. This, this says something about, um, who she is, and inspiration can therefore, um, better discern that Cato is the best vehicle for inspiration to be expressed because, you know, the— all these things are Signals. Signals are really important. So I love that. Love that. All right, gang, this was really, really— I, I knew it would be, so I'm not surprised, but, um, still I am delighted, uh, by this conversation. Cato, thanks so much for being, uh, co-hosting this, uh, thing, this little adventure with me. And Jackie and Bri and Penny and Elizabeth, great to have you all here. Uh, hope to see you all on Monday, but most of all, I invite you all to have an extraordinary