Meredith Paige NeJame - author of Drift

We are zipping across the ether at the speed of bytes. We have successfully landed everywhere we're supposed to land. How does that happen over and over again? I don't know. Welcome to Creative on Purpose, a show about making a better living and a bigger impact by defining, developing, and delivering the difference only you can make. I'm Scott Perry, Encore Life Coach and author of The Art of Encore Living. If you're ready to play your game and live your legacy, Visit creativeonpurpose.com to get started now. Let's meet today's guest, Paige. Welcome to the broadcast. Please tell our viewers who you are, what you're up to these days, and where can people go to learn more about you and the difference you're making?

Well, thanks, Scott. Well, I wrote a book that is sort of hitting a nerve with young and old. I did not expect the old. I expected the young. And it's called Drift: How to Accidentally Create a Life You Don't Want. And I wrote the book for people my children's age. So my kids are late teens, early 20s, and I saw a lot of drift in them. I saw it in my peers as I was growing up. And what's stunning is that you make small choices at the beginning that you don't think really matter, and you end up a place that you don't want to be. And what maybe those small choices are, you come out of, you graduate, you get a job at an insurance agency because your mom tells you that's a good idea and they have a 401k plan. And that's the life you never really thought of doing when you were 10, but now you're on that path and all of a sudden you're 40 and you're the CEO of an insurance company instead of possibly being something more like an actor that you wanted to be. So I always say to my kids, your 20s are your shot. That is the time. It's such a defining decade, and I'm not sure we talk to kids about it enough.

I love it. I'm just curious about— so it sounds like you've already given us a little bit of the background, like this was a book that just you felt like you needed to write almost for your own kids, right?

You don't write— I don't think you write a book unless you are compelled to write a book because it's such a hard process. And then the publishing and all of that, you have to really want it. So I really— this came out of a book I was doing. It was a small piece of a book, another book that I was doing on initiative. And I thought to myself, huh, this piece of it is a standalone. And I just started working on the drift portion.

Yeah, well, and, uh, you were kind enough to send me a copy, and, uh, I, I love this book. And of course, um, you're familiar with, with my latest book, and so when I read through this, it was like, oh, this is basically a story that resonates with the very people I work with. These are people that, um, realize that there's something missing, broken, or needs work in their life. They can't quite put their finger on it, or how they got themselves into this situation. Um, but what I look— so for me, it's like, it's, it's a book about someone realizing that they're heading towards some sort of midlife crisis or something like that, right?

At 20, right? Yeah, they're heading there. They just don't know it. Nobody's warned them that they're heading there.

And I First things first, one of the reasons I loved it is because it aligns so, so much with the work that I do, um, and the people that I try to help. It also, I loved it because we have similar ideas about what an effective book, uh, looks like, which is it looks short, um, lots of white space on the pages. Um, and, uh, I just curious about just your process. Like how did, how did you come to dial in? This kind of very short, very, uh, lots of white space, lots of pointed questions, lots of what I call empathetic antagonism, these things that get under people's skin and now they can't unsee it. I'm just curious about how you arrived at this particular format.

Well, so not easily. So it was much longer and I thought, you know, I want this to be a book that an aunt or a mother can give their children. When they are maybe about to get married, the wedding invitations are out, and the, and the, the son or daughter is having doubts. I want— and, and if you— if I— if the mother or aunt handed a 400-page book to that person, they probably wouldn't read it. So I intentionally made sure that every word— I think there's a little over 1,000 words in the book, which is tiny.. But every word had to do sort of the work of 10 words. And so, yes, it was incredibly intentional once I realized, wait, I need people to actually read this. And that's the other reason that I'm giving it away for free on my website at pagespage.net/drift. I want the message to spread. Book sales are interesting, but not the point here. The point is for me to give back, some of my knowledge, um, at 56 that I sort of wish somebody had given me.

I love that. Why is it you think, uh, that you, you mentioned, you know, these are not conversations that many parents have with their children. And so, you know, the audience that you're speaking to in, in their 20s, early 30s, um, are maybe getting, coming to this realization a little bit earlier than the folks that I work with, but. Beyond not having these conversations, I'm just curious about why is it that we do not prepare people, young people, more for exploring their innate inherent talents, loves, desires, gifts, uh, you know, why do we Why do we put them in this position where they feel adrift in their lives at such a young age?

Yeah. So I think we bury the lead, right? Um, it's been fascinating to see who it resonates with. And there are a couple college professors that have told me that they are putting on their required reading list for their students. And I think, wow, what great teachers they are. Um, I do think that we spend a lot of time on academics, a lot of time on skills, but one of the most important things in your life is maybe who you marry. How do you choose somebody to marry? Nobody talks about that. Health class talks about, you know, all the things that go on with your bodily health, maybe not your mental health, maybe not choosing a spouse. And so, you know, I've been trying to think of how it could be incorporated. So think of an economics professor. He could use, he or she could use the sunk cost fallacy to introduce the idea of drift. And, you know, the example could be, well, you've been dating for 8 years, so you might as well get married. And you could hear the class probably go, no, no, no, you don't have to. But just introducing it throughout a person's education and even career, I think would really make a difference.

Yeah. I like to say to my clients when, you know, they come to this realization that they, you know, when they feel like they've squandered their quote unquote best years and that there's much less ahead of them in terms of living than there is behind them, you know, it comes, it's an invitation to guilt and shame. And I think guilt and shame are invitations you don't have to accept. And so what I always tell people is it's really not your fault. I mean, institutionalized education and occupation, um, have, have beaten out of you your instincts for curiosity, consideration, creativity, critical thinking, um, you know, asking questions, uh, and, and I really feel like your book is a call, uh, to these academics that are bringing into the classroom, like, to make up for some lost time. Like, you haven't been encouraged to think about life's big questions. You haven't been encouraged to think critically about who you are and what do you want. We talk a lot at Creative on Purpose about play your game on your terms without, without concessions, and that this is what your book is saying to young people. But what I'm hearing is that it's not just hitting that 20-something audience. And so what, what, what's your response or, you know, what's your reaction to the broader appeal, uh, in terms of age demographic? And what are, what are folks, uh, you know, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s? What's the lesson that they're taking from it?

Well, two things. So that's a lot to unpack, but okay. So the demographic, the older demographic doesn't want their kids to drift, don't want their kids to drift. So they're using it as a warning for their children because they felt like they've drifted and we've all drifted. I am not, I am not immune to drift. I, when I was in my 20s, I really wanted to be a copywriter at an ad agency. And I graduated and somebody told me, that's really hard to do. Why don't you try to get in through account management and, you know, get in that way and then you could always move over. Well, you couldn't always move over because it was two completely different skill sets. So there I was managing copywriters, the people I wanted to be. And so that's an example of drift in my life. So we've all done it. So I think that it resonates because it's something nobody talks about and something that nobody ever really sort of defines or names. But once you name it, you can be sort of warned about it. And then second of all, with the older demographic, right? So I'm 56. I always wanted to write a book. Well, I just did. And I kept my day job. The book is not going to pay my kids' college tuition, but there you can do those things. And I heard a, I heard a saying the other day that your 60s are your second youth. And I thought, wow, what a good way to put it. So I say, you know, we do have probably fewer years ahead of us, but make them count. And the other thing is you don't have to quit your stable job to do something, to follow a dream of yours.

I love that. I never imagined myself being an author, really. But what happened for me was after my altMBA experience, I kind of like, oh, I don't want to actually— and I was a professional musician with a very successful performing career and I had a guitar studio and I actually really loved doing both, but I was, I was feeling a pull towards something else and I couldn't put my finger on it. And the Alt MBA more than anything just kind of gave me the permission, gave my, allowed me to give myself permission to explore this thing that I didn't understand, which is what am I going to do with the rest of my life? Um, and writing a book seemed like the best way for me to make sense of it for myself. And, but the idea of writing a book was terrifying. So I wrote a 3-page book and I published it on Amazon. And whenever I talk to authors that are aspiring authors that are like, it's just too hard. It's just, it's like, actually, you could, it could be a 1-page white paper and you could sell it for 99 cents on Amazon. And and people will buy it.

So I think you have to keep your expectations low, right? So what's the purpose of the book? The purpose of the book maybe for you would be to, you know, to show some authority in your business, right? And that's not going to be— that's not going to result in a New York Times bestseller, but it will result in what you need it to result in. So I, I took an MBA also, but my real defining moment was working on the Carbon Almanac with Seth Godin. And once we were done, so I wrote a section of the Carbon Almanac called Climate Change for Rookies. And I then, when we sort of wrapped everything up and it went to the publisher, I still had some juice left in me. And so I started, a bunch of us started to write Generation Carbon, which is the kids' book that goes along with the Carbon Almanac. And so that actually taught me how to do it. And Seth said, let's make it free because it will spread far and wide. And again, the whole purpose of a book about climate change is not book sales, it's to get the message out. And I was stunned at when you give something away for free, how many downloads you get. It was remarkable. And how many countries want to— I think it's translated into 21 languages. Wow. It was a stunning thing. And then we also did publish on Amazon because I thought, well, let's just take it to the next level. Somebody wants a paperback copy, they can get one. And I just went through the whole process and those are my training wheels. And I thought, now I can do it on my own.

That's awesome. Yeah. The permission marketing model that Seth, as far as I know, he was the pioneer of give your book away for free and that will help spread the word. What's interesting is he took— with Louise Karch, who I think was also part of the conference, and is a colleague, fellow coach in Akimbo workshops from back in the day. Seth encouraged her to charge a really large amount for her book. And so it's, you know, there's so many different ways to reach your target market. I want to circle back to what you were saying earlier because it just came to me. When we are talking about the big decisions in our life, you know, what are we going to do to make a living? Who are we going to marry? Are we going to marry? Um, I read this, uh, I read this somewhere that people actually spend more, give more attention and spend more time on planning their vacation than they do on planning their career or, um, or their intimate relationships. And it's just a, it's a, it's a fascinating metaphor because I think it's actually true.

I, I, I've seen that over and over again. Right. And what's more important than, than who you spend your time with? I think that might be the most important thing is who you spend your time with. So, um, you know, there's some lines in the book that said, well, we've been dating for 8 years, we may as well get married. And you hear that, you hear that, oh well, we're living together, the next step is marriage. But no, it's not. If, if it's not the right person, um, you know, sunk cost, just walk out of the movie. Um, it's hard to start over. Yes, the dating scene is hard, but what's harder is living a life with somebody that you that may not be, you know, the one for you.

Yeah, well, uh, my friend Savio is— was listening just to this part of the conversation, so that is definitely resonating with him, and I get it. You just— you, for, for the second time, you mentioned sunk cost, which I, I'm very familiar with. It's something that Seth talks a lot about. But just for any viewers that are not familiar with that, please just share a little bit of, of what sunk cost means and why we should, should ignore them. When we're talking about these things?

Yeah, so there's a few examples, but sunk costs are— it's you never really make decisions based on what's happened in the past is sort of the economic principle. And if you wanted a real easy way to understand it, it's you go to a movie, it's not great. Do you now— you've now bought the ticket, bought the popcorn, bought the Twizzlers. Do you now spend your time in that movie or do you walk out? And sunk costs economics would say you should walk out. Yeah, right. But most people probably walk out or fall asleep. I think you can fall asleep in a movie. You get your little nap in.

Yeah, it's air conditioned in there. It might be hot outside.

Right, exactly.

You want to hang out. I appreciate that. And what we had, my friend and current mentor Dan Nicholson was on who wrote a book called Rigging the Game. And he has this thing called the investor's frame where he talks about You know, one way to deal with sunk costs, like I've invested, I've invested in this thing that I actually don't want to be in, but I've invested so much. I can't, I don't feel like I can get out. He, he has this question that he tells his clients to pose to themselves, which is given, given all I know now, would I invest in this today? And if the answer is no, then ignore sunk costs. And walk away because, and the other part of it is what you don't realize is that the, you know, the, the only, it would have been better if you hadn't gotten into that, you know, relationship that's not working 10 years ago. Um, but the only thing that would be worse is to continue it for another day, another year, what have you. But you're also, you have to, I think part of, part of the reason why sunk costs are so hard to ignore is that we don't trust— well, sometimes it's a worthiness issue. We don't, like, have enough— we don't embrace our worthiness or, you know, feel that we deserve more and better. But there's also this— we don't realize that we should— we can trust ourselves to recapture and reallocate our resources and that we can invest, you know, get out of this thing that's not working and invest that time, attention, um, relationship capital, what have you, into, into the next one with the wisdom and experience, you know, that we've, that we've learned from the relationship we're just, you know, exiting or the, the job that's not filling our soul and, uh, you know, that sort of thing. So I, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that, but I, yeah, I have two thoughts.

So one thing I notice is people think that other people know more than them and therefore would be, oh, well, that's why they've made it. Nobody knows more than you. They just started, right? So taking the tiniest step towards whatever it is, usually the next step sort of reveals itself. So nobody, I don't think you, um, I don't think you build a company or build a life knowing what the end looks like, but you take tiny steps along the way to, to get that, um, to get that clearer for you. So that's the first thing. People don't know more than you do. You know everything you need to know. Um, and then I think also, um, what's sort of stunning— so look at me as an example. I own a house painting company. In Boston, and my skills translated to helping to write the Carbon Almanac and then the kids' book and now Drift. Your skills translate. So you, you end up 56 years old with like so much life experience that if you wanted to switch careers at this point or try something that was part of your dream, don't worry, you know how to do it based on all the mistakes you've made up to this point.

Yeah, I love, I really appreciate those two reflections. One is kind of a reframe around Dunning-Kruger. We, people think with a very little amount of experience, intelligence, knowledge of something, vastly overestimate their abilities. And, and so when, and we were actually, again, institutionalized schooling teaches us that we're in competition with everyone, and we're always measuring ourselves against external expectations or rewards. And so we look at someone, uh, that appears to be doing very well, and we're not. So, you know, and sometimes that person's an idiot. You can't figure out how did that guy or that gal get that, and me, intelligent, talented, etc., can't get there. So that that feeds a narrative that's not going to be very helpful. But the, the way out, I think, is in what else you reflected. At Creative on Purpose, we call it smallest viable step. What's the smallest step that you can take with the least amount of risk, the least amount of effort, and the most amount of optionality going forward? Because ultimately, oftentimes progress is not these big, bold, audacious leaps into the abyss, hoping that the net will appear. But these small, deliberate, thoughtful microsteps that allow you to stay in the game. And every time you take the smallest viable step, all you're doing is putting yourself into the position to make the next best decision that you're capable of making, knowing what you know now. And I think that for anybody that's listening, um, this, you know, what you just articulated is kind of the way out. Well, the Robert Frost quote is, "The way out is through." But you can't get— start to get through until you step into. So smallest viable step is a way of taking that small step. So, you know, what's the step before the step? What's, you know, what's the outcome you want? And then thinking all the way back, what's the step before the step? And when you can't come up with a step before the step, take that step.

Yeah. And I think— so you hear it all the time. People want— they take these like big. They're gonna train for the marathon, and then the first day they run 18 miles, and the next day they can't run, right? It was just too much. They didn't start by just a slow jog down the driveway. Um, the slow jog down the driveway done every day equals so much more than the big intention that just fizzles out because it was almost too big. I think that's why New Year's resolutions maybe don't work.

Oh, that's absolutely why they don't work. And part of it is the announcing of your intention to the world, right? Feels like it. You just, you're, you're neurologically, it feels like you just accomplished the thing.

And so, oh yes, I didn't think of that. Yeah, you're, yeah, I would think that it was that if you announced it to the world, you're sort of on the hook now. People are watching. But yeah, I see what you mean, that that's like, I'm done.

Yeah. Oh, I think there's actually a lot. Simon Sinek has talked about this and in his research around neurochemistry and that sort of thing, that announcing a goal feels like accomplishment. And you're in your neurochemistry, it's feeding you this idea that you've already done it. You know, and that Nick Peterson talks about, like, why do we celebrate the people that, you know, keep— that, that are the yo-yo dieters, or, you know, the addicts that keep going back to using. You know, we reward them when they climb themselves back out of the hole that they dug for themselves, and then we congratulate them the second, third time. Why do we not congratulate the people that never got into trouble in the first place?

Yeah, and with your kids too, right? You have to make sure that the one child that doesn't cause any trouble gets just as much attention as the child causing trouble. Yeah, and that's really tricky to get. You know, it's really easy to say, well, that's my easy kid. I'm, I'm, I'm done.

Well, our time is coming to an end and I want to, I have one, one final question that I ask all my guests, but before there's just one more thing I'd love to, to, to ask you about. Um, and this is, you talked about this idea of, um, you know, the time that we have left, like when you realize when you wake up. To the fact that you've been drifting and you want to get a little bit more intentional, what I call the second half of life. It feels like we have limited time. And I'm just curious about your experience. What I have noticed is that by investing fully in, in, in defining and developing and delivering the, the difference only I can make and turning that into a, you know, it doesn't have to be a, a money-making enterprise. I mean, I'm grateful that I can fund my retirement doing work that's, um, that I generate, that, that comes from me, but you could, it could just as easily be a cause or creating a community or whatever it is that's going to fuel you. But one of the things that I've noticed is that time has expanded, that even though chronologically I still have the same 24 hours everyone else has. You're— I'm just much more often in flow and it feels like there's— the time has expanded, like there's more time. It's just chronologically it's happening at the same time. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, it makes complete sense. I was just going to say we have plenty of time, especially when your children get older. Right. So if you're a parent and you've been in sort of the rush hour of life where your career and your kids are all sort of converging at once, you don't have time. You probably cannot even take that tiny step. But the minute that they get a little bit older, time does free up. And I know a lot of parents that I tell this to, they don't even believe me because I don't think I would have believed anybody either. But you can get in flow because you, you don't, you don't have children around your ankles all day. Um, and so you can, um, do something that, that maybe is more, um, part of your dreams than it would have been when you were in the rush hour of life. So I do say that we, we have plenty of time. And if you If you don't think you have time, then look at how much time you spend on the internet or watching TV and then just use that time.

Yeah, exactly. Well, you've already delivered a ton of little nuggets of wisdom and really appreciate you and the work that you're doing. Drift is just a fantastic book. For those that are watching, they are people that aspire to or want to advance in delivering the difference only they can make. And if there was just one final piece of advice or some sort of inspirational quote or something that, an exercise, anything that you have that would encourage them to step into possibility just half a shade braver than they've been showing up, what would, what would you share?

I would say, so in the children's book, The Carbon Almanac: Generation Carbon, there is one page that just says, 'Just Start.' That is the, um, that is the headline, and it talks about how the Earth with climate change doesn't need us to be perfect. We don't have to drive an EV, we can maybe drive a hybrid. Um, we, we don't have to worry that we have to take a plane trip to a funeral if that's the only way to get there, but we do have to start. And so do not let perfect be the enemy of the good, just start. And it really does start to snowball.

I love it. Every, every day is a chance to begin and begin again. I want to thank everyone for tuning in. Paige and I really appreciate the gift of your time and attention. We hope today's conversation motivates you to take a bolder step into possibility for yourself, to keep go, go, going, defining, developing, and delivering the difference only you can make. Please visit Creative On Purpose. And if you're watching on social media or YouTube, please drop a comment with your biggest takeaway, a question. It really helps more people collide with this content. And if you're listening on a podcast, please rate and review this, this podcast. It really helps more of the right people collide with the content and the wisdom being shared by our guests. And now take the insight and inspiration from this conversation and please go and buy Hire and the Difference Only You Can Make. Paige, thanks so much for the gift of your time and attention and sharing your wisdom and experience with us today.

Thank you, Scott Perry.