Skip the Funnels and Vanity Metrics: Build a Business That Funds the Life You Want

Well, as folks start to roll in, thank you everybody for joining us today. I'm here with Scott Perry, and if you know me, I'm Erin Gregory. Scott and I both connected here on Substack because we have some similarities in our approach, which is leveraging who you are and your life experience to build a brand and a business that better serves you instead of living a life that is kind of flat and lame and sucks. So, um, Scott, if you don't mind starting off, give us a little bit about your background and how you ended up in this work.

Well, talking about my— I'm 61 years old, so talk about my background could take the entire live. But what I will tell everyone is that the things that are most interesting about me to me are that, uh, I am married to my wife of 37 years. We have two beautiful boys and two beautiful grandsons. And, uh, that's what matters most to me, and that's what I have built my business to fund and fit. Uh, the thing that is most interesting to most other people is that I leveraged a 7-year association as a coach and head coach in Seth Godin's programs to transition from a career as a professional guitarist and guitar teacher and, uh, short-term, uh, music store owner into what I'm doing now, which is, you know, mostly distributing all the insight and inspiration that I've gleaned over the years on Substack and working with people that are navigating the intersection, uh, of work that matters and the art of living so that they can build businesses that fund and fit the life that they actually want to live.

Yeah. And for me, my journey was similar. I'm a little bit earlier on in mine, but through having my daughters, I came to the conclusion that the traditional workforce, for one, isn't really equipped for working parents, moms or dads. It's tough to work around the school schedule, the feeding schedule, you know, whatever phase of parenthood you're in. So I set on a mission Um, when I had my first daughter, I started freelancing and through experience learned that I could take those skills and build something that better suited my life. So I spent about 10 years building a business on the side while raising 3 daughters. Um, and I learned the ins and outs of the consulting world, um, the nonprofit and mission-driven marketing world, and stood up a practice that better worked for me. And that's what I write about here on Substack, is being able to leverage your life experience with your professional experience and build a brand that works for you instead of the other way around. So we're going to get into some of those topics today to hopefully provide you with some valuable insight to take your business and brand to the next level. If you have an idea or a concept, maybe you're playing around with it on Substack here or on LinkedIn and you want some tangible advice on how to take it from point A to point B, That's what we're going to be addressing here. So with that, Scott, why don't you start by taking us through a bit of a journey with a new subscriber, a new client, and they've got a great concept. What would you tell them to do next?

Oh, okay. Well, I guess if someone is at the beginning of their adventures in solopreneurship or, you know, creative project or endeavor, The first thing is, do you actually know what you're really good at? Do you actually know what unique ability you have? Do you actually have some idea of the difference only you can make in the way only you can make it? Because most of the folks that I start working with initially are jumping right into tools and tactics, like, how do I use— how do I grow on Substack? Well, what Who do you want to attract? What is it that you want to teach people or talk about? And people don't really often know what that is. And if you're going to grow on Substack and just get a bunch of random strangers that probably don't understand who you are or what you're wanting to talk about, it's, it's not going to be a very successful enterprise. So the first step— and you know, this comes from my long affection for ancient philosophy, whether it's Stoicism or the Bhagavad Gita or the Tao Te Ching, they all really start with that fundamental, you know, exhortation: know thyself. Who are you? What are you truly uniquely good at? Where do you actually belong? Those questions have to be answered first. Those are often the most difficult and challenging questions. And, um, I You know, one of the things that my friend and mentor Seth Godin says is do the hard part first. So if you don't know who you are and what you're good at and where you belong yet, that's the hard part. Do that first. Once you have some idea, like, and when I say get that right first, I don't mean like perfectly, because you, you're, you talk about the messy middle all the time. Like you're always in the messy middle, right? You know, what got you where you are won't get you where you want to be. You're always in the messy middle. That's right. So all you need is a good enough idea of where you're headed, where you're starting from, and what you're starting with, and to take daily intentional steps into possibility and your potential to become the kind of person that can get clear about, closer to the things that you actually want. And for me, that Substack is a great place to begin that journey. Once you have some, a good enough idea of who you are, what you're good at, and where you belong, you will have a good enough idea of who you should be talking to, who you should be communicating with, and the kind of things that you should be talking about, questions you should be asking of those people that you seek to serve to start to create what I call a forever offer, to start to identify the— your positioning, which I think is way more important than niching. And to start to identify and develop your brand, whether you like the idea of a personal brand or a business brand or not, it's, it's, it's a thing that you should probably embrace. And, and then, you know, every day, you know, again, to just reference your, you know, this beautiful idea of the messy middle, like every day is a day to begin and begin again. Begin where you are, show up as you are with what you have, do what you can with and for the people that are around, and you will get clearer about and closer to what you want by helping other people get clearer about and closer to what they want.

Yeah, and what you're speaking to, I believe, is the reference is the implementation gap, right? You've got this concept, this great idea, but you don't know how to get it from ideation to implementation. And The Messy Middle, for those of you who don't know, is the name of my podcast. And I started it because I was literally in that place. I had successfully left a couple of former employers who had been like part-time clients essentially. And I jumped into doing this full-time on my own. And I've been marketing other brands for 20 years. And I literally sat there and was like, what the hell am I gonna do? Like, I know who I am when it comes to serving clients, but who am I when I'm on my own? So that Messy Middle podcast is literally me thinking out loud and interviewing other folks who either were in that same spot or had effectively exited that place and found their position in the market. So, so taking that time to explore, to discover who you are, what you really want to get out of this venture that you are thinking around is really vital. And it took me a good 6 months and 14 episodes in that season to really land on, okay, here's what I want to do with this thing. And then I began to create a tier that leveraged resources for people, helped them to empower their own brand, put it in your hands and start to differentiate yourself. And what, what Scott and I both emphasize is using who you are as a really prominent piece of that brand. And Scott, you talk about the difference between performing and being, and I think that's a pretty important aspect of understanding who you are in your brand, because a lot of professionals who I work with really feel like they need to lead with their credentials. And credentials are important. They show your expertise. But there's a whole nother layer to that.

Yeah. Well, the credentials thing is an interesting one to me because, you know, I have credentials in that I have a BA, you know, in history, American studies, and education. That got me my first job as a teacher teaching history. At some pretty famous private institutions, which was all well and good. Turned out to be not the thing that I was really meant to do at that point in my life. And, you know, to your point, you're, you know, credentials can be useful and helpful for sure. They can also be— chasing credentials can also be a seductive way to hide.. And for the most part, nobody's gonna actually hire you because of your credentials unless it's to create deniability if things don't work out. One of the things that happened to me when I first started, uh, was because I was a, a coach and a head coach in Seth Godin's programs during the pandemic, because we had already been doing a lot of online meetings, communications, teaching, and so forth, I would get asked by organizations to teach them, like, how do we do what we do online now because we can't do it in person? And I would, you know, respond like, oh, I'm happy to, to organize the Zoom and, and walk you through the things that are working for, for me and working for us. And then they'd ask me for my credentials, and I'd say, I don't have any credentials. My credentials are you called me because I work for Seth Godin. And if that's not good enough, go find somebody else, because if If you want to— when you say, let me see your credentials, you're saying, I'm going to hire you because you have a piece of paper so that if things don't work out, I can say, well, we hired the guy with credentials and it didn't work out, not my fault. Um, put yourself on the hook, you know, is what I would essentially say. Like, what, what we do works, and it'll work for you if you do the work. But if you're not going to do the work, then it won't work. But that's going to be on you, not on me. So I answered a question that you didn't actually ask, but it's something that I often—

it was a good answer—

riff and rant about a little bit. Give me the original question again.

Oh gosh, we were talking about the performing and being.

Oh, thank you. OK, yes, exactly. So yeah, I think Being is at the heart of everything I talk about, and, and this idea of being and belonging and emergence, because your identity, your purpose, your vocation, your calling, uh, you're becoming— these are all emergent properties. Like, there's— I don't believe that all of this stuff is predestined or at least predestined completely. I don't believe that, you know, I don't believe in Simon Sinek's Start With Why as this— excuse me— thing that exists inside you that you have to excavate by the time you're 21 and it's fixed in forever. Um, we are evolving creatures. Excuse me. What I was supposed to do at 18 is different than what I did at 28, different than what I did at 38, and so on. So the way to become what you are meant to become, or seek to become, is to be more of what you've always been. Like, we are all born sufficient and whole, possessing everything we need to succeed in whatever we want to do. Uh, we prove this as children, you know. You didn't learn to read and write and talk and walk and all these things because you got credentials. You did it, you did it poorly until you did it well. And if you want to become the kind of person that accomplishes the kind of things that you want to accomplish, you have to start being that kind of person. And you will be it poorly before you are being it well. The performance trap is when you pretend to be something like— I'm not a big believer in fake it till you make it. Like, nobody needs— we don't need any more fakers. We got plenty of online gurus and digital marketers that are extremely good fakers, uh, and they have polluted the marketplace, and they have made it really hard for the rest of us that are trying to do really good work, uh, that, that gets real results. What we need are people that are willing to be generous and vulnerable and show up as they are, not as someone that has all the answers or that has the perfect roadmap or the dogmatic advice that you must follow, but as someone that is a fellow traveler, a guide that's on the same journey that you're on, has figured a few things out that you haven't figured out yet, and is willing to help you get clearer about closer to what you want and how you can get there. That's what, uh, that's what being is, and it's very different than performing. What are your thoughts on that, Erin?

I love what you said about the idea that at 21, there's no way. I mean, at 21, I was still bar hopping with my husband who I was then dating at the time. And I couldn't imagine for one, holding down a really good responsible job. My first job outta college was retail and then it was sales like so many marketers have to do. And what I talk about in my book that's coming in a lot of my subset is that each job, treat like data and research, and it's going to teach you a bit about yourself and what you actually like to do. And I just had Earn Her Keep, who's one of my subscribers here on my podcast, and she is testing 5 income paths because she is striving to build an income stream of her own so she can be home with her kids and work and she kept referencing how her background was in, in science. She had a passion for science before, and then in product development, and, and she's writing. And she kept saying, you know, I did all these things and now I'm doing this. But everything she was saying was referencing those skills. You know, I'm researching products, I'm testing out this path. And I think people lose sight of that, the fact that everything that you've done to this point is building on itself. And that's the case your whole life. What I'm doing today, I will leverage 10 years from now better because I'm just trying it out right now, you know? And if you can have the wherewithal to take a chance on yourself, to try some things new, you know, I am a fan of Japanese psychology and Greg Creech is a practitioner. And one of the important pieces that they emphasize is taking action. So in the midst of sadness, in the midst of grief, in the midst of confusion and chaos, take the next step. And, and that's what I did with my business. And here I am 12 years later, and those steps have built a full ecosystem that is self-sustaining— not self-sustaining, you have to keep working at it, but it is sustaining. So that idea that you have to continue to become who you want to be next, I think, is, is exceptionally important. And stop looking for your answers in the workforce. Let the workforce feed the answers that you can answer for yourself.

Yeah, well, I love that. I just want to highlight what you said about data. Like, the only way to get clearer about and closer to what you want is to engage the field and have your assertions tested by reality. And so, you know, one of the things that I find pretty commonly is clients want to run things by me so that they have the perfect plan. And then when it doesn't work, they'll— they can blame me because I told them it was the perfect plan. And I always tell them, we don't know what's— we don't know if this is going to work, but it sounds plausible. It sounds like a good assertion. Let's go ahead and have 10 conversations with real people and see if this offer is attractive to them, or if this process is useful to them, or if this insight, uh, helps them get clearer about and closer to what they want. Um, you know, it's the same issue that we just talked about with credentials. Like, we are very good at staying humble and hiding and remaining stuck because humble hiding and stuck feels safe. Uh, you know, there's a, a famous child psychologist named Virginia Satir who says people prefer the certainty of misery over the misery of uncertainty. And so because of that, you know, we will resist putting ourselves on the hook and, and, and believing and stepping into our potential and into possibility. So, but data is data, right? Data doesn't mean I failed or I succeeded. Data means I got closer or I got further away. And now that I have studied the data, I will put forth my next assertion about how I can close the gap.

Yeah.

And that, that's the thing that people, you know, when people tell me they don't, they're not numbers people, I don't want to collect the data because I'm not a spreadsheet person. It's like, well, it sounds like, yeah, it sounds like you're a person that just doesn't want make any progress. It's right, because data is data. It's, it's not good or bad. It's just, it's just numbers. So use the insight. And I also love what you said about action. Like, action clarifies. An intentional action clarifies easier and faster. So the more intentionally you decide and do what needs to be done next, the better the data will be and the the more ease and velocity you'll have in closing the gap between where you are and where you want to be or what you want to become.

Yeah, and I liked that point you made about, you know, I can put together a MarCom plan for any client and if it's a brand new client, brand new path, they've never really done formalized marketing, I can't guarantee it's gonna work. And I'm always upfront with them on that. I said, this is based on experience, this is based on what I see in your niche, in your market.. But we have to, we gotta, like I said, throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. And then you go back and you track what actually worked, and then you build from there. And that's what I did with that, that first 6 months that I was on here. I took all of that data. I, I, you know, and Substack and AI are a powerful combination. If you know how to use, you know, things like Claude, take your subscribers, dump 'em in there, let Claude do an analysis on you. And, and then see what the trends are, you know. And I learned who was, who was paying attention to me, who was interested in what I was writing, and that helps me to better serve those individuals. And you can do it across channels, but you got to pay attention to what the numbers are saying, whether you like it or not.

Yeah, well, most of the folks that I work with that start off as not being numbers people or loving spreadsheets learn to love them when they they see that they're actually making progress because of them. So I like what you said about the trend because people pay attention to the snapshot and mistake the snapshot for the movie. The snapshot is just the snapshot. It's just a frozen moment in time that has already passed. It's, you know, what's the trend? What's, what's where the overall vector? Where are you heading? Are you getting closer to you actually want, or further away from what you actually want. The, the snapshot doesn't tell you that, but, uh, a series of snapshots, uh, may, may point to whether you're heading in the right direction or not. But the— it's all about the trend. As, like, again, you're always going to be in the middle.

Yeah.

And it's always going to— but if you're heading, you know, if you're making progress, uh, then, then you know, you're, you're going to, you're always going to end up in a slightly better place. And that's, that's the whole game right there.

Yeah, it's, it's slow growth. I mean, in Substack, for one, can be a little bit inundating because there are folks who come here and they bring their lists and they've already got a whole, you know, portfolio of work. And then there's others, you know, like me who just started and take the growth for what it is, take the learning opportunity for what it is. Use the audience. This is such a great collaborative network. You know, I see some of my tried and true followers on here. You know, Krispy writes, Brian Maxwell was just on my podcast. Hey, Brian. And he actually spoke to that performing and being piece where he was a very successful CEO, had this booming career, and throughout the course of that realized that he was really being driven by the wrong things, by this need for success. And so he took a step back. Now, you experience some clients who've had to do that, and what do you tell them to do? Yeah.

Yeah. Was there a, was there a question there?

Because, you know, yeah, some of these, some of the clients that you deal with who are kind of stuck in this place of like having to perform, and having to be this, you know, kind of high-level executive and taking a step back and realizing like you can have a successful career without slaving away 14 hours a day.

Yeah, well, I think you have to define your terms, like what is success really? Like, most people define success by, oh, I had a note go viral on Substack, I got, you know, 60 new subscribers or whatever. Like, is that really success? Because getting, you know, getting 10,000 people to subscribe to your Substack but have only 10% of them opening your mail— emails— that's— is that success? Like, that's success. Your definition of success is, is based on vanity metrics. If it's You know, is, you know, I think for the folks that I work with and for myself, it's, am I making a bigger difference today than I did yesterday? And that, and that might be harder to measure. And it may take longer to succeed. But that's, that's my measure of success. I don't, I couldn't give a damn about whether or not I have a note go viral, or if, or even things like open rates, you know, that, that's, that is an indicator of something, but it's not the only indicator. Uh, one of the things that, that I have found, and one of the reasons why I think I work with so many people that are, that are in, in a messy middle that is, you know, earlier in the journey, is when I came on Substack, I literally came in with 500 subscribers that I transferred over from my Kajabi platform. Uh, I think in my first year I might have had 10 or 20 paid subscribers. My first year on Substack, I earned my annual revenue number in 6 months, and I've earned it in less than 6 months every year since then. And it, you know, and I've kept— I've maintained my subscriber base at 1,000 total subscribers because I I am a person that will kick you off my list if you're not opening my email. Like, thank you if you're following me. Thank you if you trusted me enough to give me permission to talk to you. But if we're not communicating, if you're not opening my email, I don't want to be polluting your inbox. I don't want to waste your time and I don't want to waste my time trying to win you over. I, if I talk to, if I, if out of 1,000 subscribers, 500 of them are opening my emails consistently, I know that's all I need. That's success for me. And is it success in the, in the way that most of the growth hackers are on Substack are talking about? Absolutely not. Yeah, but again, who's, who's enrolling into these note, note masterminds and, and how to go viral with notes and how to growth hack your way to 10,000 subscribers in 3 months? Most of the people that are doing that don't have a clue about what they're actually trying to—

what value they're bringing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Chris, Chris, you're right. I know you just cleaned up your list too. You said, I'd rather have a small engaged ride-or-die audience than hollow numbers. And completely agree. And those can be a little trickier to get because you have to, again, figure out who you are. Something that I speak to with a lot of my clients is this framework of Understanding your values, what's really important to me. For me, that's having the flexibility to have a cohesive home life, not scrambling from one thing to the next, and still being able to do work that I love. Understanding what you're actually good at, your innate abilities, whether that's, you know, something you practice through education or the workforce, or you're just inherent talents, really honing in on what those things are. And then understanding what you want to learn about, what your interests are, where you want to grow, because that's really kind of what attracts people is you talk about things that fascinate you, and that brings in people who are fascinated by those things as well. So if you can work towards aligning those three elements, you'll be light years ahead. And I know that you kind of talk about this in a little bit of a different package, but there's a lot of similarity to it. So what are some of those key elements that you make sure followers focus on when they're thinking about how to develop their business business and their brand?

Well, I think the first thing is, like, again, you have to be clear about defining your terms. Like, what is a brand really? Um, again, if you're, you know, an online guru or digital marketer, you're going to say, well, you have to, you know, you got to cultivate your brand, you got to get your colors right, you got to get your logo right, you got to get your website right. If you don't have a website, you don't have a business. You know, email's dead, email's the only way to— like, these are all branding ideas that we hear. Um, I look at it really, really simply. Like, for anybody that is hung up on the idea of a, of, of being a brand, a personal brand, or, or even creating a business brand, the simple way to think about it is your brand is not what you think you are or what you think you do. A brand is not your logo. It's not your, your font and colors and image. Your brand is a story other people tell themselves about you. And they tell themselves that story based on what you say and what you do, not what you say you want to be and want to do. They base it on their experience of you showing up in the world. So knowing, and I mean, I think it all comes down to storytelling. I'd be interested in your, your take on this too, Aaron, but like human beings are meaning-seeking creatures and we make sense of ourselves, our situation, and each other through narrative. I'm telling myself a story about myself. I'm telling myself a story about Aaron. I'm telling myself a story about the story Aaron is telling herself about me, and on and on. And The, the, the real work of branding is, can— how much overlap can there be between the story you want people to tell themselves about you and the person that you want to be, and the, and the story they're actually telling themselves? So get that right first. And when it comes to, like, defining your offer, uh, and finding your audience and all those kind of things. You've already said a lot of this, like, what are your values and what are the, you know, values of the people you seek to serve? Because if you don't work with people who share your values, it really doesn't matter if they need your talents to enhance their lives. You're not going to get along. Like, the whole point of an offer is making promises that you can keep if the people that engage with your product or service or idea or cause do the work. And, and so again, to reference what we said earlier, if you know who you are, if you know what you're good at, if you know what you're trying to become preeminent at, the being the best in the world at doing what you do in the way only you can do it, and you show up in places where the people who share your values and need your talents to enhance their life already exist, you will never struggle to have a strong brand or to create enough, attract enough of the right prospects and leads and clients. If you show up as an honest broker, not a know-it-all, not a perfection, perfect, you know, person that knows all the answers and has all the perfect roadmaps and, and blueprints and so forth. But if you show up as someone that understands that we're both in the messy middle right now—

yep—

and we're gonna figure it out, and I've got a lot of ideas that have worked in the past that I'm pretty sure will work in the future, but if they don't, we're going to continue to figure out until we figure out how to get where we want to go. And, you know, the, the final thing I'll say about all of that is whatever you call what you do— like, some of us are called ourselves coaches or client consultants or teachers or healers or whatever it is, uh, the whole point is to coach or teach yourself out of a job. Like, you— nobody is going to work for you forever. They shouldn't. If they are working for you forever, you're not very good at what you do. The whole point is to teach or coach yourself out of a job. Do that and you will have transformed people so profoundly that other people can't help but notice. And when they ask your former clients how they accomplished what they accomplished, they will not be able to do anything but sing your praises and lead more of the right people to you.

Yeah, yeah. A couple of things I'll hit on there. So values, you know, when I describe my ideal, my ICP, my ideal customer, values-led is always one of, if not the most important part, because I want folks who are pleasant to work with, who value my time, who value life outside of the office. You know, and my husband jokes with me sometimes because I'll put up photos and videos of me gardening. He's like, your clients are seeing you in the middle of the day gardening. I'm like, that's right. And they know it and they're okay with that. You know, when I, when I stood this whole thing up, it was with the intent of being completely authentic, as Chris said in the chat and leading with who I am. So there's no question. And what I found, you know, after I started putting that out there was the folks who, you know, I would shoot notes to if they were looking for a senior writer or something like that. And then we would have conversations. It was so easy because some of that initial discovery work was done because all they had to do was pop onto my channel, see what I'm writing about. They learn a bit about me plus my expertise in the process. So that was number one. And then number two, the aspect of storytelling. And I am a, I'm a career journalist and I really found my way into marketing was by understanding this intersection of storytelling with marketing and branding and how vital it is. And like you said, so many brands skip that. They want to go straight to the logo, the pretty colors and graphics, and that is the fun part. Everybody loves a good image, but what's really going to be memorable are the words. You know, you think about Nike, you know, the swoosh, but just do it. And some of those other brands that have stuck with those keywords for so long, and you associate a feeling with those brands, and that's through words and through storytelling.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll just, as a, as a quick aside, I don't love polishing my logo or, or working on my website. I like having conversations like this. Yeah, if I— and, and, uh, you know, so I'm one of those people, like, if you go to my website and, and think that a website is the only way that you're going to be— have a successful business, you will not work with me because my website is, uh, is terrible because I don't use it as the place that I'm trying to drive people, like I want people to get on my Substack and collide with my insights and my ideas and, you know, and join my community so they can start getting clear about closer to what they want. So yeah, just, just sharing for the rest of the folks out there that maybe don't love polishing their logo or their tagline. It's, it's, it's a good thing to have. It's not the only thing you need.

That's right. That's right. And it does come second. You have to figure out that foundation first. So, so we talked about leading with your values, understanding what you are inherently good at or what you've really practiced to be good at, and then what you like learning about. Anything else from folks who are kind of in that implementation gap? You know, they've got that idea and they're looking to go, you know, figure out what's next. And they've got some of that self-discovery, you know, under the hood. But But you've got a pretty cool product marketing, digital marketing background. What are some of the things that you've taken from that?

Well, most, I have been a very successful digital marketer in the past. I mean, I created ideal customer avatars and niched my niche down to the nichiest niche and created power offers and content calendars powered by ads. Engineered funnels that got, you know, 5 to 7% conversion rates, which is exceptionally high for a funnel. And I built a business that I didn't love working with people I didn't care about, and I burned myself out and blew myself up within a year. What I, you know, in terms of digital marketing, a big part of my promise right these days is you can have life and business success without any of the digital marketing BS. And I know this from experience because I had a very successful music career, uh, opened and sold a music store, um, that, you know, without a website, without a Facebook page, without any digital advertising, without any advertising at all. So, um, the implementation gap is just the gap that you're currently experiencing in the messy middle that you're currently experiencing. Most people try to define a gap between this is where I am and this is the dream vision of the perfect world that I will live in. Well, that's not a gap that you can navigate because that is not a problem that you can solve. That's a situation that may be solvable over time, but you're going to have to solve a bunch of problems along the way, and it's better if you solve the right problems in the right order at the right time. So I think that a vision of the life that you want to be living, that the, the life that you want your business to fund and fit around, is really important. Like, you should have an idea of that. You should also hold it very loosely because it's probably not going to be exactly where you end up. Uh, at the same time, If you start with that, this is, you know, the vision of the life I want to be living and have my business funded fit around, and then walk it all the way back to like, what's, you know, what do I have to— what's life going to look like before that moment, before that moment, before that moment? At some point you will, if you're just starting off, I would encourage you to do an audit of where you're spending all your time, attention, money, and effort right now. And stop doing 80 to 90% of the things you're doing. And pay attention to the only 3 things that have ever been necessary for any successful business ever. Do you have an offer that is irresistible enough to an audience that is eager enough for that change that you can help them make, that promise that you can help them, that you will help them achieve, the problem that you'll help them solve, the aspiration that you help them achieve. And do you have a way of putting that offer in front of that audience? Every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. The more things that you're doing, the more platforms that you're trying to promote yourself on, the more, the more content that you have, the more moving parts The— that's scientifically how you create inefficiency. What are the 2 or 3 things that you need to do right?

Simplify.

And how do you do those things a little bit better tomorrow and not get distracted by digital marketer promises or online guru solutions to problems that you don't actually have? And so that, you know, You can't, you can't close a gap that you can't clearly articulate. If you can't define a specific, if you can't define success in a way that is specific and measurable, you're, you've defined a situation, not a problem. Every problem is solvable. That's the definition of a problem.

Yeah, you wrote about that in an article I read too.

Yeah, exactly. So Define the next most important solvable problem to getting a little bit clearer and closer to what you want. If you don't know what your offer is, figure that out. If you don't know who your audience is, figure that out. If you don't know how to figure that out, figure out who you are, what you're good at, and where you belong. You know, if you don't know how to do that, then start getting— having some conversations with people that can help you do that. You know, again, the, the, the reason why we talk about the implementation gap is because defining the gap feels like you've solved the gap. But defining the gap is just the first step. You have to, you have to work your way through it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Intentional action will help you get clearer about and closer to the navigation of that gap. And, you know, one of the reasons that people like you and I have businesses, Aaron, is because we have a track record and plenty of social proof in that we have helped people not only define the gap but close the gap. And, you know, doing that work with a trusted, experienced guide who has the humility to admit that they don't have all the answers, but also the strength of character to say, we're going to do this and figure it out until we get there. You know, that will help. If you want to do it on your own, cool. It definitely can be done. It's probably going to be slower. It's probably going to be a lot more lonely and painful, which means that you'll probably want to quit a lot sooner. But, you know, there's, there's no one way to do any of this work. But if you don't start thinking in terms of solvable problems and closable gaps, then you're not going to get anywhere.

Yeah. Well, and what you said, too, about clarity, getting clear on who you are, what, what you are offering your audience. And that's something that does— it can come over time as you kind of work through some of the content. A lot of us on Substack are writers and we love long form.. And the hard part is distilling that down into something that is really easily digestible for your audience. So, you know, and I'm as guilty as anybody. I love writing a good long story, you know, and if you're an AI user, you've gotta be careful about how it complicates things because your goal is to make it really easy, 6th grade reading level for your audience to understand what it is you're saying. Cuz in your head it makes complete sense, but you've also been thinking about it for, for days, months, or even years. And putting it together. So, so get clear on, on what you're offering and really make it very simple for your audience to understand what that is. And, you know, to your other point too, Scott, like, navigating change is tough for most people. And, you know, I worked for the Department of Veterans Affairs a few years ago, and that was our whole job, was communicating change. And that was where I really understood, like, wow, I can't believe this is whole sector of the marketplace because people just are resistant to change. We like things to be the way they are. It's comfortable that way. But that messy middle and, you know, building something that is meaningful to you means you're gonna get uncomfortable. So get a little bit uncomfortable. That's what I always tell my kids, you know, and why we put them in sports and drama and stuff is we want them to get used to putting themselves out there and being okay with sometimes getting hit by the ball. Because that's life. So pick yourself up again.

Yeah, I love that. I just, I, I, I just finally figured out how to get the chat to show up. So I apologize if folks have been—

Oh, you're okay. We're learning as we go.

Britt said something interesting that I think is worth just highlighting. This idea that the best offer people want is your time offering a one-on-one or something that is either value-added or speaks to the human element. I think, you know, offers— there are different kinds of offers for different moments. And yes, one-on-one, I love doing, like, there's a lot of folks that say, "Oh, I don't want to do one-on-one. It takes too much time." And they actually don't have any clients. And so, like, why is, how is one-on-one not taking your time? Or taking up all your time? I also love just working in my community and doing, you know, group coaching or group work. But the, the thing that people actually are paying you for is closing the gap that we just talked— like, they getting clearer about and closer to what they want. And you can do that through informational content, inspirational content. You can also, uh, you can, you can help people get— one of the things that we talk about in the Be a Blessing marketing approach that, that we use at Creative On Purpose is If you show up and do your thing for the people that are around, and it helps them get clearer about and closer to what they actually want, where they're starting and what they're starting with, and how they can get there— if you do all of that for free, most people will eagerly ask you how they can work with you to close that gap with greater ease and velocity. And you can decide if that's going to be a one-on-one thing or a course thing or a group thing, a mastermind, whatever. But pay— if you help people solve the problems that they actually have, uh, that's what people are actually paying you for. And if you can, if you can prove that you can, that by working with you or buying your thing they will achieve what they want to achieve with greater ease and velocity, they will pay you for that. And so don't, you know, there's there's no one, one kind or one type of offer. I think you said this earlier, and I'd love for you to riff on this a little bit more if you're, you're willing, Aaron. Like the whole thing about your offer and your business and the way that you run your ecosystem and the way that you promote yourself and get the word out, you can do that in a way that totally aligns with your personality and preferences. Like, if you don't like doing video, don't do video. You don't have to. If you don't like to write, don't write, because you don't have to. If you don't like one-on-one work, don't do one-on-one. Like, anything works. Everything works.

Yeah.

And everything that used to work still works. I run my business now the same way I ran a successful career as a musician and a music store. And a guitar studio before there was any digital nonsense to even worry about, never mind, you know, get, get seduced by. Uh, the things that, you know, just conversations with the right people that provide generous insight, you know, done in a way that is, uh, transparent and vulnerable and true is still the best way to create offers that, that will sustain you and create real prosperity. Um, you know, it might not land you in a mansion with two Lamborghinis in the, in the driveway. If that's what you want, definitely feel free to pursue the—

Yeah, it may not be the right conversation for you then.

You know, if you just wanna— like, when I started my music career, my wife and I had a conversation, uh, about Like, I just— I was 29 at the time, and I said, listen, all I'm asking is to give this a shot. If it doesn't work out, I'll gladly get another job. But if I make enough today to do it again tomorrow, I want to be able to do that for as long as it makes sense and is sustainable. And that's literally how I began my career as a musician. And at first, the messy middle was, can I make $100 playing on the streets? And then it was, can I make, you know, $150 playing at, at the sports bar or the Holiday Inn lounge. And then it was, can I make $250 playing at a nice club? Can I make $500 playing as a featured performer at a nice festival or event? Like, I— every step along the way was another step through a messy middle. Yeah, but intentional action is what helped me close the gap, and it looked different what I did How I did it and what I did and who I did it with and for looked a little bit different at every step along the way. But, um, you can, you can build a business that reflects who you are, what you're good at, and where you belong on your terms without any compromise. So don't listen to anybody that tells you— if someone is giving you dogmatic advice about how to succeed, remember that dogmatic advice really only works on dogs. Human beings are a different thing altogether, and you've got to decide which game you want to play. And you can't win a game you don't want to play, and you can't win a game playing someone else's game by their, their rules.

Yeah. And that was really— that was what I learned when I kind of exited the traditional workforce structure and was like, oh, I don't need this, you know, because we are, we are kind of fed this mentality that you have to operate a certain way. You're supposed to follow the path and lead the structure. You don't, you know, you can, at 18 years old, you can leave high school, start a landscaping business and grow plants in your backyard and be successful doing it if that's what you really wanna do. You gotta figure out where your audience is. So that's the only kind of caveat that I would add there. If you're building a business where your audience is 99% online, you're likely gonna need to have an online presence. But what that presence is, is entirely up to you. You do have to be vulnerable to an extent. You know, you putting yourself out there with a guitar on the street, like that is not easy to do. And I'm sure it had some humbling, humbling nights afterwards. You know, and imposter syndrome is a common affliction we all deal with. You know, when I first started really posting about my business online and I was thinking about all of my corporate employers who are out there likely judging me for what I was putting out there, I had to put it all away. And at the end of the day, you know, again, what I tell my kids is nobody really cares. If you ever watch Schitt's Creek, my favorite episode is when David's sitting in the car with Alexa and he's all stressed about his driver's test because the instructor is going to be all judgy and cares. And she said, no, he does not care. Nobody really cares except for the people who follow you. Those are the people you want to care because they're who you're communicating with. And then the other one I'll add is that find your community outside of the internet. Even if your business is online, having that face-to-face interaction, getting outside of your, your, you know, little square office, whether it's through volunteerism, whether it's through, you know, fitness. I call it a third space, somewhere that is not specifically work associated, is maybe not family associated because that does take up a lot of our space and time, but somewhere that is just for you that allows time for collaborating and just talking and doing something good for yourself helps to open up those creative channels and ground you in a different way. Yes, find your why, Chris.

Like it. Yeah, well said.

So while we've got just a few minutes left, so if there's any questions, I see lots of comments on the chat. Thanks for everybody. I learned something last night about the concept of niche is not about finding but becoming your niche instead. Instead? Any thoughts on that, Scott? That's from Duncan the Sage.

Yeah, well, Duncan's been, uh, Duncan's been a, a, a frequent, uh, offender when it comes to showing up on these lives recently, so it's good to see you, Duncan. And yes, um, I would recommend nobody start with a niche because most of the time, uh, you don't know enough about yourself or what you can offer other people to actually, uh, start niching right away. Niching emerges from positioning. And positioning— niching is how you fit into a marketplace. It's a way of differentiating based on demographics and psychographics and the features and benefits of your offer. But if you're trying to fit in, you are signing up for a lot of heartache and competition. Positioning is how you stand up in the marketplace. And that's to your point, Aaron, like, what are your values? What are your talents? What are your guiding principles? What are your boundaries and guardrails? Who do you work with and who do you not work with? Like, stand up and let people experience your values in action, your virtue, the way that you actually show up in the world. If you, if you establish your positioning, you may never need a niche. I've, I've niched a few times over the course of my career as a, as a online coach, uh, consultant, teacher. Um, I've always ended up going back to, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna talk about the things that I want to talk about in the way that only I can talk about them. And more than enough people have, have sought me out to help them get clear about and closer to the things they want. And oftentimes I'm working with people across a wide variety of niches, dreams, aspirations, desires, and problems. I just don't worry about the niching thing too much. And again, if you don't want to be— if you don't want to find a niche, don't find a niche. You don't have to.

Yeah, just be consistent with the content that you're putting out there. And to your point, a niche doesn't allow you to really grow and evolve, which we spoke to earlier. Where you are today is likely not where you're going to be 2, 3, 5 years from now. And you have to be open to that journey and take your audience with you. So being consistent with what you write about but allow yourself room to grow too, um, you know, and that's okay.

So yeah, I think it's okay to let people come and go. I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna grow and change. The people that needed you when you were this person are not going to be the people that need you now when you're that person, and, and that's okay. Like, I think it's, it's always okay, uh, just like the answer to any real question is it depends. Like, people are like, hey, what do I do now? It It depends. Like, what do you want? Where are you? What are you trying to accomplish? You know, what are the boundaries? And like, it all depends. It's all contextual. Um, so don't, you know, we're, we live in a world that is made up of nothing but uncertainty, and we are certainty-craving creatures. And, um, that's why digital marketers make such a good living. They promise false certainty and things that where there is absolutely no certainty. And when it doesn't work out, you're the one to blame because you didn't have the right mindset or you didn't do all your homework or, you know, you skipped steps 2 and 3. You can— again, it all comes back to the knowing yourself, knowing who you are, what you're good at, where you belong, and just becoming the next best version of that day to day, wherever you're showing up and whatever conversation you're in.

Yep. Be open to change. Be open to understanding who you are, figuring yourself out. That is the greatest time investment from my perspective you can make your whole life is continue to learn about yourself and who you are and what drives you. You know, even as parents, your kids need to see you doing things for yourself. You know, there is from, from my perspective, there is no pride in sacrificing who you are for the sake of your kids because then they learn to do that when they get older and that would be a shame. You know, they should always devote themselves to figuring themselves out. You're a happy, more fulfilled person for it, and you can align your work with who that person is, you know, which is what we talked through today. So thank you for joining me, Scott. This was such a fun conversation. For everybody in the chat, for your feedback, feel free to check out— I'll put the stories that we alluded to in the chat or the conversation follow-up after this so that you guys can check those out. And then feel free to ping either of us for any questions about your brand and your business evolution. You know, I do open chats for any of my subscribers on Wednesdays. So over there to answer any questions from my business marketing background. And hope you all have a great rest of your Tuesday and build something that works better for you.

Awesome. Thanks, Erin.

Bye.