The No Guru Guide to Building a Business on Trust, Not Tactics

Okay, I think we're live. All right, so what are we talking about today? So today, uh, well, hi, I'm Bree Willey and this is Scott Perry, and today we're going to talk about saying goodbye to guru BS. And, uh, let's see, what are some of the big promises that are often made by, you know, different coaches that um, you just, just really don't often happen. Um, so we're going to be going over some of those things. Um, I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little nervous, but, um, anyway, how are you doing, Scott Perry?

Perfect in every way. It's a beautiful day. We have snow globe snow here in southwestern Virginia. It's just swirling flakes. It feels like I'm in a snow globe. I have lots of windows in my studio, so I'm digging the, uh, thinking the winter weather and the holiday vibes right now, but always thrilled. And it's always fantastic to spend some time with you. And I like the topic. I think it's something— I think we should probably have a trigger warning because I think a lot of us that think of ourselves as coaches or coaching adjacent consultants, teachers, healers, et cetera. Um, you know, we're going to, we're going to talk about some things where people are going to think we're talking about them when I think we're actually talking about all of us.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think, you know, I'm thinking about Jake Anderson's Four Zones of Positioning that any of us can fall into the guru zone. Um, what are the other, uh, the friend zone or the confused zone? And what we want to do is build— I love his framework— walking into the trust zone. So being less guru, less friend zone, less confused, more trust. And yeah, I think any of us can fall into the guru zone. We could overpromise. But let's, you know, if we're a coach and we have overpromised in the past, let's work on it. You know, let's notice it. Or if people have been caught in some sort of program where they had these big promises. Like, what was the one I saw the other day? Not calling anyone in particular out. I can't even remember, but it was like, or I've seen books about, or well, I don't want to call any particular person or phrase out, but just like saying we can do these huge things in a short amount of time. And often it's just, it doesn't work that way. It's usually pretty slow. You know, we can, you know, we can collapse time by different strategies sometimes, but there's also time and randomness you often talk about that can impact that. So anyway, I'm going on a rant. What are your thoughts, Scott Perry?

Well, I think let's just start by saying, or I'll start by saying that, number one, I think we're all coaches. I mean, if you think of coaching as fundamentally helping people get from where they are to where they want to be, if you're a manager at a company, you help, you know, hope you are doing some coaching and getting the folks that work in your department or division or whatever to become a little bit more self-empowered and able to make decisions better and able to be a little bit more autonomous, uh, as spouses, as friends, you know, we do, we, we, because essentially I believe that most everyone is coming from a place of good intentions and that in general, people don't wake up in the morning and think, oh, how can I trick someone out of their money so that I can get them into my high-ticket program and teach them a bunch of bullshit that won't work, but it'll be too late because I've already got their credit card credentials. I think in general, anybody, whether you self-identify as a coach or feel like your business is a coaching business or coaching adjacent, your motivation is you truly believe that you can help people achieve a specific aspiration or solve a specific problem. And my guess is you probably can't because you've probably solved that problem or achieved that aspiration for yourself. So when I share some of the things that I think of as the perils of the online gurus and the digital marketers who I'm fond of picking on, I'm saying this because I've looked in the mirror and seen myself doing the same thing. I've experienced it. I've been on the, you know, the side of being a customer or client of someone selling a high-ticket program that didn't really deliver, that overpromised and underdelivered. But, you know, along the way, I have probably either unintentionally or just through ignorance been easily accused of some of the same things that I'm saying. So I say this from taking long looks in the mirror and also through long experience with working with a lot of coaches, either as a coach, helping them optimize their business, or as someone that wanted to optimize my business, working with someone that's a guru or a digital marketer. So I think one of the things to, to, and, and The reason I think that we've all fallen into this trap mostly has to do with our default human programming and conditioning. We are programmed to chase after shiny objects, tools and tactics, and to chase after more. We think that there must just be, we must, there just must be one missing piece. And if we could just find that piece and here's this guru or digital marketer with this really seductive sales page, perfectly colored button, no-brainer money-back guarantee. And so we—

upsells, downsells.

Exactly. You know, and, and I think that once you've been burned a time or two by someone with a big, bold promise that they really underdeliver on, it's easy to get overly cynical or skeptical or jaded about it and say, well, screw it. Nobody knows what they're talking about. And you either decide to give up or you just decide that you're going to have to do what everybody else does. And So, I mean, I'm happy to go into some, some things like, I think there are some things that we can check, uh, before we, we, to, to, to, as a litmus test, you know, is, does this sound like something that's too good to be true? But I think it's also might be useful for us to talk about the alternatives to chasing after some guru or digital marketer secret formula. Perfect blueprint, you know, failsafe roadmap or whatever it is they're offering. But I'll, I'll turn it back over to you for your insights.

Yeah. Um, I was kind of brainstorming a little bit before this and thinking about, um, my own story. I think that, um, yeah, like we said, any of us can fall into any of those traps, whether it's guru, friend, or confused. Zones. Um, but many of us have fallen into the trap where we, uh, we saw a huge promise, we've collected all the worksheets. I almost got caught in this yesterday collecting more worksheets I'm never gonna read from other, you know, people. Anyway, um, there isn't really— I don't think there is a secret formula. I think it's we have to do the hard work. We have to— doesn't Nick Peterson talk about go get your own data. You talk about that too, that we need to engage the field, and that's often slow and hard, and taking the data and reapplying it and learning, and is an intelligence getting closer to where you want to be. But often there is no, you know, they don't teach a certain map, you don't teach a certain map. I may have fallen in the past in calling things maps, working on it, you know, there's no certain map. And I just went on a little tirade there. Any thoughts?

That's really good. I mean, because it's, you know, it's true. One of the things that I think we can check when we either feel ourselves being seduced by some sort of online guru or digital marketer offer, or find ourselves out of desperation, urgency, you know, a feeling of lack or want or imposter syndrome, delivering something that smells of a blueprint roadmap secret formula solution. Is, is this a dogmatic solution to a behavioral problem? Because just as you were saying, I can't give you— well, I'll pause here for a second and go back to my initial point. Most of us and most of those who are selling some sort of program to help someone, whether they're course creators or healers or teachers or coaches, optimize their business, they are selling something that they believe actually works because it worked for them in the past. The problem is that you are not them and it is no longer the past. And when people are promoting these, like, here's the LinkedIn messaging strategy that took me from $10K to $20K months, or this is the Facebook ad strategy that got me, earned me my first 6 or 7 figures. That's a, that's a roadmap. That someone crafted for themselves that worked in the past. And by the time they are selling it to you, it's probably already an oversaturated approach. Algorithms change, platforms change. Like, these, these are dogmatic solutions to behavioral problems. So if someone is selling something that sounds like this is something that worked for them in the past, and I'm not them, and it's not the past. Maybe it would be worth pausing and saying, is this something that I really need now? Because as you were saying, I—

if—

and the Purpose-Driven Prosperity model operating system that I teach meets every single person exactly where they are. So if, if you haven't yet established a client attraction system, it will help you build one from the ground up based on who you are, what you're good at, and where you belong. If you have a system, it will help you optimize that system based on the strength— testing the strength of your offer, the strength of your marketplace, and the efficacy of your client attraction system. So It's not a— it's— and it requires— and, and it— I tell people, like, people say, well, will this really work? Because I've been burned so many times by people that are saying, you know, organic content strategies or something. My strategy is nothing like that. Will it work? It depends. Are you ready to actually do the work? Are you ready to take a long look in the mirror and really dial in who you really are? What you believe, what you don't believe, what your guardrails are, what your actual talents are? Are you ready to get clear about where you actually belong and who are the people who share your values and need your talents to enhance their lives? And are you ready to do the work necessary to put yourself on the hook and make promises that you can keep and let that marketing and let that good work and let that, that demonstrated value and competence be your marketing. Because if you're willing to do the work, it will work. But that's not what most people want, right? When someone says, I can help you lose 30 pounds in 90 days, and it's only going to require a little, uh, a few changes to your diet and exercise program, people are like, I don't want that. Wait, this person has— I can give myself a shot and I can eat pizza all day and sit on the couch and do nothing and I'll still look great? That's what I want. So, mm-hmm. When you're promoting something that is authentic and it is explicit, like, this will work if you're willing to embrace the process and become the person that you want to become by doing the work. That's a lot different than selling people outrageous results that you can't possibly actually deliver because most people will not do the work. So that's, uh, that's tip number 1 for how you can afford or how you can avoid getting burned again by some sort of ridiculous online guru or digital marketer promise. If it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true. If it sounds dogmatic, then, and, and it's a behavioral change that's going to be required for you to get the result you want or solve the problem you want, then it's too good to be true, you should avoid it.

Mm-hmm. That's so good. That's so good. Let's see, what are some other things people can do to try to avoid getting stuck in another program that's not going to work? I think maybe looking at what you're saying, you know, is it more where you are doing the work? I think like I've grown Oh, I didn't know coaching would be like this. You know, I'm your— I'm one of your clients, and I feel like I've had to look at myself in the mirror and look at my struggles with follow-ups and try to work on my follow-ups. And it's been hard. But, you know, maybe looking at our own readiness too, maybe as part of it. But what is another— Strategy, not strategy, uh, something else to watch out for. What did I take some notes on? Boundary weirdness. Watch out for that. Yes, guaranteed outcomes, um, shame-based sales, uh, secrecy. If you can't see what's going on week to week, like, is the coach transparent? Are they real? Maybe are some. I don't know, any other thoughts?

Well, you pointed to two of the most important. One is your level of readiness. Like when I say it works, if you do the work, that means, are you ready to put yourself on the hook and do some things that are going to feel uncomfortable until they start to feel comfortable? And with coaching in particular, and again, even if we don't explicitly identify as coaches, if you're a teacher, a healer, a consultant, uh, and for that matter, you know, a lot of service providers, you are doing some form of coaching. When I say be aware of your readiness, like, are you actually good at what you claim you can do? Like, do you have— like, because so many times someone that decides they're going to get in the coaching game comes up with their bespoke signature framework that may or may not be just a cobbled-together collection of things they've heard from the online gurus and the digital marketers that they've been burned by. And then say that now that I have a system, I— or a process, or this approach, or this framework, or whatever, I just need a way to, to sell it. Well, if you haven't validated that what you do works and validated the packaging and the— of the offer, there's no amount of marketing and sales voodoo that's going to help you keep, uh, or build a sustainable, viable business. Because at some point you will burn through the, that small segment of the market that will buy something just because it's new. And then you won't have anybody to sell to because you won't have any proof. You haven't proved any competence, as you were saying, if it's all behind a paywall. Nobody's going to buy that. Nobody buys uncertainty. Some people have a higher threshold for novelty and uncertainty, and that 2.5% of the market is called the innovators, and they will buy because they understand enough and are infatuated with novelty, and so they will buy into the new thing. But after that, nobody's buying on uncertainty or novelty. They're buying on Information. Does this work? Do I have proof that this worked for the people that have already bought it? So readiness. Are, are you actually good at what you do? Can you actually, do you have a proven track record of delivering the results that you promise you can deliver? Most people are chasing after online guru and digital marketer solutions to their marketing and sales problem before they actually have something worth marketing and selling.

Yes. I wrote the other day, it's not build it, they will come. It's build it with them and they're much more likely to come or something like that.

Yeah. Well, and that's why, why I think you're having success with the Purpose Driven Prosperity model operating system is what I am saying. Is, oh, well, I'm going to pause there for a minute. I want to go back to another point that you made that's really important. Like you said, does it, does it align with, you said something along the lines of, does this, is this the kind of thing that I want to be doing? And again, if the approach or the process or the program or the Roadmap Formula or Blueprint doesn't resonate with your personality and preferences, there's no way that's going to succeed.

Right.

And what the digital marketers and online gurus will say is you have to do it this way because all the other things don't work anymore. Like, how many times have we heard email's dead, video marketing is the only way forward?

Really?

'Cause I don't do any video marketing right now. I rely exclusively on email marketing and I earned everything I needed to make this year in less than 6 months. It's just false because it's, it's false. So the promise of the Purpose Driven Prosperity model operating system is you can build a business without any of the digital marketing BS that you don't want to do anyways. Like, how many people that are purpose-driven, generous, kind, compassionate, empathetic people that want to help people get from where they are to where they want to be wake up in the morning and say, you know what, I can't wait to spend 80% of my day grinding out copy for Zuckerberg, tweaking my ideal customer avatar, trying to patch holes in my leaky funnel that gets less than a 2% ROI and put together yet another launch. I don't know anybody that wakes up and says, that's what I want, but that's what we all think we have to do.

No, right?

The promise of the Purpose Driven Prosperity model operating system is you can actually just show up every, like, wake up every day, Show up as you are with what you have, where the people that you seek to serve are already gathered, and do your thing and let them watch. And enough of the right people will raise their hands and ask you if you can help them that you will never have to launch another ad on Facebook, create another YouTube video, do another podcast episode or write another piece of content. Like, just do your thing out loud and in public. Prove your competence while you're actually gaining preeminence in the way that you do what you do and the way only you can do it. Like, you're— every single one of us can make a living by just leveraging the difference that only we can make in the way that only we can make it with the people who share our values and need our talents to enhance their lives. And so, and, and when I say that, I'm not saying this is this digital marketer or online guru's solution. It's, this is how every business that has ever actually thrived was created. I live in a very small town. And for 25 years, I had a very successful career as a, as a professional guitarist and studio guitar studio owner. I never had a Yellow Pages listing. I never had an advertisement in the paper. I didn't have a website for at least half of that time.

Nice.

I just, I just showed up every day and did what I do in a way that other people could witness. And enough people came to me every single day and said, I like what you're doing. Could you— could we hire you to do that here? Or I like what you're doing. Could you teach my son, my granddaughter, my niece, whatever, to do what you do? And, and that was it. That was, that was my marketing. I'd never had to create Facebook content. I never had to tweak the copy on my sales page or my website. And I never had to make a false claim that I could help you play your favorite Django Reinhardt song in 3 hours. Like, I just, I just demonstrated that I was good at what I do, that I liked doing what I do, and I like sharing it with other people. And you can do the exact same thing in any kind of business. And the more time that you spend doing the work you love and honing your craft, the sooner you will achieve that level of preeminence that is the foundation for any sustainable, thriving business. The sooner you become the best in the world at what you do in the way only you can do it, the sooner you, you will be able to ignore all of the noise and just wake up every day and do the work that you do. For as long as you want to do it and make more than enough to afford to be able to get up and do it the next day.

Mic drop. That's, that's just so great. You know, looking at, so you built that business and you looked at the first principles of that music business and you took those principles and you realized, I can apply this to any kind of business. And you teach those first principles and you've lived it and you've applied them and you're using it in your business now. You're teaching me how to do that, how to see my own first principles in my own first business and applying that. These are timeless, these principles that you learned, you know, yes, you, you knew a lot and then you got better and better at your craft. You did it out loud and impromptu. Public, you kept getting better, you built preeminence, um, you know, through that, and you charged for implementation through all of that too. And you do that now. And I'm learning how to do that where we don't just give forever. We've gotta make some money at some point, but where do you charge? I know this isn't ex— exactly a guru kind of question, but it's a coaching question. When do you start charging, I guess, is a good question. Yeah.

Well, I think you were pointing at something interesting and fundamentally true. A lot of people that are, you know, we would identify now as online gurus or digital marketers selling dogmatic solutions to behavioral problems that probably will not work for you because you're not them and it's no longer the past when it used to work for them. The first, the first thing is I think you have to begin with the age-old philosophical question around knowing thyself. Like you have to decide, you have to be clear enough about who you are and what you're really great at and define where you belong. Who are the people that need what I have and where are they gathered? Um, would you repeat the second half of your question? I'm sorry, I lost the thread there.

Um, yeah, I was just commenting about first principles that you've learned those, you've learned how to apply them. You're teaching others how to apply them. Those are timeless. And I somehow got to— but you do charge at some point.

Oh, thank you.

Yes. For implementation. And I think some of us are, you know, we're givers, and sometimes we have trouble with the boundaries piece. Like, we could end up giving forever. Right. You know.

Well, you're absolutely right in that, especially the kind of people that are attracted to me and my work tend to be, overly generous. They give and give and give until they give out and they don't—

burn out.

Yeah. They burn out, they blow themselves up and they, and they never achieved that pricing level of sustainability. I think regardless of whether you use my approach or, or one of your own or somebody else's, you have, there's, there's a point at which you have to decide, I am, I, I have demonstrated competence and proficiency at, at delivering this promise that I'm making to people. And now it's time to define the line between what I do do for free and what I never do for free. So just to illustrate with an example from my operating system, again, because my model is built upon demonstrating, like, spend all day doing the work that you want to get better at and that are already good at, but want to become the best in the world at doing in the way only you can do. And what I suggest is, you know, we have this process that we've just been walking through and is now available, uh, in the, in the Inner Circle vault, but you, you define the promise that you can make and keep. That's your forever offer. It doesn't have to be a power offer. It shouldn't be a power offer. It should be, here's a promise that I can make every day and keep every day that defines my position, where I stand in the marketplace, not a niche, but a positioning. And then the Be a Blessing marketing is the second stage where you actually show up in public and you demonstrate your ability and competence and proficiency at getting— helping people accomplish the results that they want, keeping the promise that they came to you to deliver on. And so when it comes to your question about like, where is that line between the free and the paid? The way that I think about it is if I start a conversation with someone and can then get them to clearly identify for themselves, maybe for the first time ever, This is where I'm actually trying to get to, and this is where I actually am. That level of clarity, as long as they've got enough clarity to see what they're actually trying to accomplish and where they're actually starting from, they've also identified the gap between where they are and where they want to be, maybe for the first time ever. That's an incredible gift to give someone for absolutely free, but it's something I can do in just a a quick email exchange or a 5-minute conversation. Once I've done that, I move into what I call a diagnostic, but I'm not a doctor and I'm not a counselor. It's just, I'm going to help audit the system that you're currently using to try to get where you want to go, help you get rid of 80% of the things that you're doing that you don't need to do. Which immediately gives you more time, more attention, more money, and more energy in your life, creates spaciousness. So now you can actually start to enjoy your life a little bit more and maybe reinvest some of those resources into the things that will make a difference and then identify the 2 or 3 things that need to go right in order to collapse time to target. I'm going to do all of that for free because what I have done now is helped you define your direction. Where do you want to go and where are you starting? And I've given you your roadmap. Here's the 2 or 3 things that need to go right. And then I simply say, if you would like my help getting going and collapsing time to target and identifying all the obstacles and opportunities that will arise that we can't see right now, If you would like me to be your personal GPS, your fellow traveler, and accompany you on getting some traction, let me know. I'd be happy to help you. I'm now crossing the threshold. I delivered a ton of value for free.

Mm-hmm.

I gave you everything you need to do it yourself. And if you want help with the implementation, if you want help saving time while you increase velocity and do it all with as little risk as possible, you can go into some sort of low-ticket offering that I have to get some coaching by email for a couple of weeks. And I will prove that this map is working and I will get you some traction and, and, and momentum. And if I deliver, on each of those promises, I help you define your direction clearly. I help you see the path and that it's possible. And then I actually start helping you collapse time to target. Then when I say at the end of the low-ticket coaching by email exchange, if you want some more help, just let me know. Now I've set up for delivering my mid-ticket offer.

Mm-hmm.

If you've experienced, if I kept every promise I made along the way, why would you not continue? And I've demonstrated in other broadcasts, um, the conversion rate that this has compared to the typical digital marketing funnel takes 80% less time, 80% less effort, costs $0. And delivers a 10 to 40x return over your typical digital marketing funnel. And so that's it. I've defined the price gap or the, you know, the, the, the— I call it the compensation obligation equation. I will— I am committed to and obligated to help you clarify direction and see the path. I must be compensated to help you begin to collapse time to target and implement all the things that I gave you for free.

Yeah, for that.

And so whatever your offer is, just you have to define, like, here's the hard, hard stop so that you avoid the friend zone.

Yes. I was going to say that you, you're in the trust zone at that point. You're out of the guru, you're out of the confused, you're out of the friend. You're in the trust zone because you've worked with them and helped them. They've seen that it does help. They've seen the evidence. And then they have the choice and that autonomy is respected and it's individualized. It's not one cookie cutter plan. It's unique to them. You build it with them. And I love that. And I think that's what we watch for in coaches. Do they build with us or do they give us their own formula that we have to squeeze ourselves through and then build something that doesn't match who we are?

Yeah, just, it's a great point just to circle back to what we were saying at the beginning. You know, there, this, this approach to real coaching and delivering real results and making promises that we can actually keep, uh, does require that we put ourselves on the hook and prove the competence that we can with confidence deliver the results that we promised to deliver. But again, it also, um, it also requires that the person that we're working with is willing to put themselves on the hook and do the work. And here's two, two things for consideration by those that are in that zone of I'm, I'm honing my craft and stepping into my preeminence and competence in what I do. And I want to make a living at the same time. The, it can be, you can fall into the trap of, I'm just going to, if anybody raises their hand and says, can I give you my credit card? I'll just take their money. And you have to resist that urge because again, you have to realize that If someone is not willing to actually enroll in the journey, meaning invest not just their money, but their time, attention, and effort, and trust themselves and trust your process enough to embrace and engage and do the work, they're not going to get the results. Then they're just going to think that it's all your fault. And so you have to be really— you have to have systems for Identifying who the people are that can actually benefit from what you have to offer because they're going to be willing to learn it, understand it, embrace it, and engage it. And we're not programmed for that. You know, we're in the holiday season. People are buying all sorts of things on Amazon. And if you don't like it, you can return it, no questions asked. That's learned helplessness. Like, I have no responsibility for the decisions I'm making and the actions I'm taking because Amazon will give me my money back if I'm not happy. Like, there's that— there is a mentality, you know, and people will say, well, the customer's always right. It's like, well, actually, no, customer's not always right. In fact, customer's quite frequently wrong. But we live in a culture that indulges customers' bad behavior and, you know, these, you know, money-back guarantee, no-questions-asked kind of policies. Facilitate that. And so, yes, you have to, you have to have your systems in place for making sure that you're enrolling and onboarding the right people. But if you do, again, if you do, if you use the process that I shared, they will have already demonstrated their willingness to question their assumptions and keep open loops and do the work necessary to accomplish the things that they want to accomplish. And by the time someone gets through my low-ticket coaching by email exchange, I know for a fact whether they're ready to continue to do the work or maybe this should be the end of our adventures together. The final thing I'll say is, and there's no guarantee that my process— I'm not saying that you will close at a 10x or 40x rate compared to your average digital marketing funnel. I do that because I have put in the time and effort and suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune associated with becoming the best in the world at doing what I do in the way only I can do it. And still, I'm— there's plenty of people that are dropping off at any of those stages, even though my conversion rate is exceptional. But I've— every minute and ounce of effort I've invested has just helped me get better at what I do. And I've earned all of that goodwill. Like, if I help you clarify your direction, I help you see the map, I give you confidence that you can do this, and you decide that you're not going to work with me, at least now, that's a ton of goodwill. A ton of competence that I've already demonstrated in public. And when you try to implement it yourself and it doesn't work out, the likelihood that you'll circle back and say, hey, uh, could, uh, could we revisit that, that program that you were telling me about is very, very high. So, you know, one of the things that I think you and I are interested in is I want to be able to wake up You like, we talked about looking in the mirror. When I wake up and look in the mirror, I want to like the person I'm looking at. I don't want to question my judgment, my abilities, my motivations. I want to know that I have shown up every day with integrity, delivering insights that inspire intentional action, and that I've done the best I can for every single person I've interacted with. Um, and I trust that the remuneration and maybe any reputation will come as a side effect of just showing up every day and doing good work that's fully in integrity and done ethically and with empathy and, and been a force for good in the world.

I love that. Yes. Um, I'm sorry, my brain just went blank, but that was also good. Neurodivergent. Let's see. So I think that's so helpful. I feel like this journey has been hard. It's been a lot of work, but it's been, I feel like I've grown a lot and I think, yes, the looking at ourselves, looking at, you know, trying to stay as present as possible, but also checking the rearview mirror sometimes, seeing You know, what are the mistakes and what are some of the good choices we've made and how can we navigate a little better forward? Um, you know, I've done the diehard DIYing it. I did that for a long time. That's how I built my private practice. But, uh, coaching business is a completely different thing and I needed help and I'm so glad that Um, you know, that you've helped me along this path and it's been a wonderful journey and hard, but, uh, well, let's, let's pause here for a second, Bri, because you and I have been working together for what, about a year and a half now? Mm-hmm. I think so.

Um, when you look at the rearview mirror and when you look at where you started, and who you were and what obstacles were in your way then, and you see where you are now and what you've become so far, what's the gap that you feel like you've already closed?

Oh, well, I have some things, like I've just, I can't even quantify how much I've changed, but I know myself so much better. My boundaries, what I want to do, what I don't want to do. I feel like I've gotten to know me and then how I want my business to fit around me instead of me trying to fit my way, you know, try to be a certain kind of thing for a business to be successful. Like, I've realized life's too short to work in something I don't like, and I'm not going to build a business I don't enjoy. And what I'm trying to do is teach people to how to find joy in their businesses. That's why it's called Business for Nerds, because We can be nerdy at our businesses. We can have fun. We can play games. I'm tired of, you know, being, I don't know, we just, I don't know, business needs to be fun. I don't know if I answered your question. Little side tangent.

I mean, I think just looking at the most recent situation where you had, uh, you know, experienced a loss and you had to kind of sit in the space, the healing space of not, not just grinding your way forward, but processing grief. Uh, but the way that you have done that with what appears to me to be a great deal of alacrity, like you didn't sit in grief too long, you, you It was almost like you just, you sat there just long enough to do the processing you needed to process, and then you were like, I'm ready to get back on the horse and let's go. And I don't know if a year and a half, that, that would have been, that would have happened as quickly. I'm not sure that it would have happened necessarily at all. And so when I look at the amount of clarity that you have about who you are and what you're here to do and who it's for and who it's not for and how you do it and how you don't do it. I don't necessarily recognize that person other than she was always a good-hearted, kind, generous, thoughtful, committed to making a difference person. But your ability to actually do that work now is, I don't know, it's not 10x, it's maybe not quite 100x, but it's somewhere in that range. And thank you. Your point about it's supposed to be fun, like, that is such a profound point. And I think the one that I would want to finish up on, like, it's called the game of life. Games are supposed to be fun, and all games don't have to be competitive, winner take all, loser loses all. Propositions. Like if you play the infinite game of life, it's something that you play for the joy of playing it. And in a way that allows other people to play along with you and bring more and more people into the game with you, because there is an abundance. Like we, we don't have to be competitive.

Yes.

Because there's plenty for all, because each— your game of life is different than my game of life. And funding the freedom that we want in life to do the things that really matter to us and spend the time that we want with the people that matter does, does not have to take 80% of our lives. And it doesn't require us to do anything that we don't want to do. And I agree, it should be fun. Like your business, your, your work is one of the ways that we build identity and forge meaning in our lives. If you're building a business around someone else's identity and someone else— what would give someone else meaning, you're not playing your game. You're playing a game you can't win because you're playing someone else's game by someone else's rules. So just, I think, you know, what you're saying is in a way related to my concept of the zespirometer. Like, if you feel like you're out of alignment, if the work that you do or the way that you do the work that you do is out of alignment with who you really are and who you want to become, and you feel kind of a little depleted or exhausted every day, that's a signal that you're either doing the wrong thing or doing the thing wrong. And you're rarely doing the wrong thing.

Right.

As entrepreneurs, we'll often just blow up a business and start a new one. Which could not be more exhausting.

Yes.

But the other thing is your life has been speaking to you all along, and you're getting more and more attuned to hearing what it's asking of you. Yes. And you're going to be headed in the right direction. It's just that if you're a degree or two off, it will feel like you're completely on the wrong path. But mostly, it's not that you're doing the wrong thing. It's that you're doing the thing wrong. And if you recognize that and bring what you're doing into more alignment with who you are, what you're good at, and where you belong, it will naturally start to correct itself. You will experience more joy, less exhaustion, more excitement. And all the remuneration and reputation that so many people are chasing will come as just a naturally occurring side effect of doing the work that you're meant to do now.

That's, you know, I think you put that into a great summary. That's what I'm meaning, like alignment. Has happened. And I know I'm on the— I know things are growing and changing as we speak. And just thank you for that. And going back to, um, what we started this about is avoid, you know, avoiding guru BS. This is it. Will the coach help you find alignment with who you are?

So Love it.

Yeah.

Well, before we go, let's just give a shout out. We've got Sesshu, Alice, Seth.

Hi, everyone.

I don't know who else. Emma. These are all people that are in the Circle or Inner Circle community at Creative on Purpose. And I could not do what I do if I didn't have this community of difference makers to hang out with and spend time with and to be my guinea pigs and play in the sandbox with me. So just a real humongous thank you to all of you. And of course, I have to get ready for our community, our Friday On Purpose call here in a few minutes. But you're such a brilliant— you need to give yourself more credit and have more confidence in your ability to do these lives. You always say, oh, I'm so nervous. I hope I don't freeze. And then you end up being just absolutely stunning and brilliant and insightful and inspiring. So Give yourself a pat on the back, have yourself a bite of chocolate, and, uh, will do. I'll look forward to seeing her wherever I see you next.

Thank you so much. Thank you everyone. Take care. Have a fabulous day.