Your To-Die-For Life: Joy, Regret, and the Power of Mortality Awareness

We are live. Welcome to Creative on Purpose Live, a show dedicated to conversations with inspiring difference makers to provide insights to help you make a better living while making a bigger difference. I am thrilled today to have Karen with me here today. Karen, tell everyone who you are, what you're up to these days, and where can people go to learn more about you and the difference you're making?

Oh, well, thank you. And I'm excited to be here. I love everything you're doing and the mission for what you're doing. My name is Karen Salmonson. Everybody mangles my last name. They're always going, Salmonson, Salmonson. So I'm always saying, not salmon, non-salmon, 'cause it's Salmonson. Anyway, my website is not salmon. My social media is not salmon. And I am a bestselling author and writer. With, with 2 million books sold and leading behavioral change expert. I've been a columnist for Oprah, Psychology Today, and my newest book I'm especially excited and proud of, and it's called You're to Die for Life: How to Maximize Joy and Minimize Regret Before Your Time Runs Out. And it's about the benefits of mortality awareness. And yes, there are benefits and I'm happy to explain why as we talk about things.

Yeah, well, I'm thrilled to explore all of that with you. Just for everybody else's benefit, Karen and I collided in our mutual friend Jennifer Kay Hill's community. I attended one of her trainings. She is an extraordinarily successful writer, publisher, and just all-around media maven. And so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. And of course, I'm always really interested with successful people. How did you come to be doing the thing that you're doing now? I'm guessing little 9-year-old Karen wasn't assembling her stuffed animal collection so that she could teach them about the virtues of death or mortality awareness and how to become a bestselling author. So how did you arrive at what you're doing now?

Well, my— there are little, um, seeds planted in my childhood. But you know what you just said kind of reminded me that when I go to describe what I do, I wear so many different hats. And I forgot to mention that I'm a branding person, marketing person, SEO person, and I just sort of wear different hats every day, you know. But I think that's part of maybe what drives me is I get curious and passionate about something and then I follow it. And I think that's why I have so many different hats. So when I was a kid, I was particularly interested in psychology and humor. So my mom used to pick up my dad from the train station and there was a little mom-and-pop magazine shop across the street from the train station. And I would go with my mom because I love to read and I love Psychology Today magazine. And Mad Magazine, and I used to buy them. And I joke that if you took Psychology Today and Mad Magazine, put them in a blender, press frappé, you get my books. Because I love research. I'm a definite research geek. That's one of the hats that I wear. And then I love humor. And so one of my Substacks is called The Stand-Up Philosopher because I love to share the information that I find with humor. I think one of my skill sets is I can read boring, complicated, dense things and then rewrite it in a way that feels simple and funny. So, and I was doing it before ChatGPT. I was the original ChatGPT.

Well, I love that. As someone that also spent a lot of his allowance on Mad Magazine, and I guess the only other thing I was subscribed to was either Bored— was Boys' Life and Scientific American. So I think we have some shared, uh, slightly off-color humor and, uh, interest in research in our backgrounds.

Well, I was— I didn't read Boys' Life, but I was interested in boys and their life.

For me, uh, the, the, the interest in girls' life didn't come until much later. Um, so I'm, I'm intrigued by a couple things right up front. The first is when you say that you wear many hats and have had a multiplicity of interest even from a young age. It's something that really resonates with me as someone else that was always just kind of exploring my interest and, and where curiosity, uh, has pointed me. And in retrospect, looking back at all the things that I did at a young age, I can make sense of why I'm doing so many different things now. And it speaks to a question that we're exploring in in both Transcendent Solopreneurship and The Art of Encore Living right now, which is how do you navigate a life where it feels like you're constantly changing gears, changing hats, moving from role to role throughout the day? And do you have any insights or advice on how we can show up presently, fully as we are with what we have from moment to moment to moment, from role to role to role, from identity to identity to identity?

Okay, good question. So if I were to take it apart and dissect it, I actually do feel like I say this a lot of times to my clients that when chopping carrots, chop carrots, when chopping chicken, chop chicken, like, and this is how Chinese restaurants or whatever restaurant, you know, gets all their food done. They don't do grab a carrot, chop, grab a mushroom chop, you know? So in the morning, I will just focus on one thing. And I do that because I feel like you have to, to get into the creative brain, you have to do it for a long enough time. Like the first 20 minutes of doing something is kind of a warmup, kind of like foreplay, I guess, you know? And, or I also, I sometimes call it the microwave popcorn theory. And I see it show up in so many things, microwave popcorn theory, which is, that even with success, even with the macro of waiting for success to happen, but even in the micro of the success of creation, when you first go to do something, it's like, meh. It's like you hear pop, pop, pop, right? And you have to keep going at it until you get to the pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, that momentum. And so that's why Like in the mornings, I might do my Instagram posters, right? And I will sit there and do it for like 90 minutes and I might batch them and create them for like the week. And the first couple, I might even think the first couple are like, oh, that was good. You know, but the best ones, the best ones are when the popcorn kernels, when then that creative momentum happens. And then I've also seen that in the macro of my career where it's like, hey, that didn't work, that didn't work, that— and then it's like, oh, it's all working, you know? So you have to have the patience and you have to let that creative momentum happen. So that's, I think, part of it. Does that answer what you asked? I think it—

Yeah, no, that's really great. I love the idea of practicing patience and presence while you're kind of like one of the things I, I was a head coach in Seth Godin's workshops for a number of years. And part of that template was, or part of the, the, the, the, the process was sit down and write every single day. And I would tell students at the beginning of the workshop, the hardest part about sitting down to write is sitting down. Like sit down and write for 1 minute. And the likelihood that you'll write for 10, 20, 30 additional minutes is very high. If you say, I'm going to write for 3 hours a day, you'll find ways to never sit down to write at all because it's just too, too heavy a lift. And there's also that, you know, that kind of Zen idea of, you know, chop water or chop water, carry water, chop wood, right? Like, do the thing that you're doing right now, like, with full mindful presence and intention.

Yeah.

And I think that's really important. But there's also the integrity element. I find, and I'm just curious for your perspective on this, you know, as someone that for a period in my career would wake up in the morning and be a homeschooling father and then be a coach in Seth Godin's online programs and then have to go to my studio to teach guitar lessons all day and then somehow have enough energy to come home and be a husband and a father for the rest of the evening. Yeah, it could feel very draining to feel like I was switching gears and changing roles all day. And one day, what clicked for me was, "I'm just gonna show up as who I am, with what I have, where I am right now, and do the best I can as being the best Scott Perry I can, in pursuit of being a slightly better Scott Perry tomorrow." And by being— just showing up and being— kind of myself all day long, even though I was doing different things and had different identities that might, you know, external identities. It never felt like I was being anything other than fully, presently myself.

I love that. Well, I do think I'm a very core value person. Like, I think a lot about core values, and it's in my new book, Your Todai for Life. And one of my top core— couple of them have come up already in this conversation right now. One of them is being curious. That's one of my favorite core values. And another is being authentic. And if that's what you bring to everything that you're doing, and if you're being authentic, then the passion for it will be there. And gosh, I just have another— I'm now realizing I have a lot of food metaphors. I don't know what that says about me, but I just mentioned the popcorn theory. I have another theory called the Haagen-Dazs theory. I don't know. I have so many food theories, but the Haagen-Dazs theory on productivity. Okay? So a lot of people, because I've written at this point, God knows, over 40 different books and done so many different things, screenplays, this, that, and people say to me, sometimes they'll say, You're so disciplined. And I think to myself, I don't even know if I am because of the Haagen-Dazs theory on productivity. And here's the theory. I pick things that I love and that I'm really curious and passionate and interested in. So I love Haagen-Dazs. If somebody handed me a pint of Haagen-Dazs ice cream and they said, okay, Karen, here's a pint of ice cream. I want you to finish that in an hour. I'll be back and it better be done, right? I could finish that pint of ice cream because I'm into it. I'm really excited. So I spoon and spoon and spoon. So I pick things where it doesn't feel necessarily like discipline. It feels like excitement and passion. And it literally turns me on to write a book or to even sales pages. I like the puzzle of figuring it out. And thereby, I guess it's flow state. And it doesn't, it winds up not really feeling like discipline to me. So, and in some ways it's even can be the opposite of discipline for the following kind of humorous ironic reason. When I'm doing it, I sometimes have trouble stopping. So it's even undisciplined, like, "Mom, where's dinner?" I'm like, "I'm finishing this article," or whatever it is, you know? That's what it feels like when you're in flow. And that comes from being authentic and from being curious, I guess, you know?

No, I totally agree. I think when you're, when you're doing the work that you're meant to be doing now, which I think changes, I mean, we all go through seasons in our life. I'm not a big fan of you have one singular why that's totally dialed in by the time you're 20 and it never changes. In my experience, your purpose in life can evolve, iterate, and change over time. And I love what you're saying about flow, because when you are fully aligned with who you are, what you're good at, and where you belong, the work right in front of you does become easier to do and more absorbing, which means that either time can go by really, really fast, and sometimes it goes by more expansively and slowly because you're just so fully immersed in all of the connections that you can make about everything in life, even though you're focused on that one thing. So I think that totally makes sense. I just want to quickly shout out, we've got Alice and Penny and Jeff from the Circle community here. Got a lot of other folks here. Welcome to the broadcast. And just Jeff— Jeff is one of the— one of my clients, one of the members of the Circle community. He says, oh, wow, someone that's a bigger philosophy geek than Scott Perry. Scott Perry, this should be really interesting. And one of the things that immediately connected me with you was this idea of being a stand-up philosopher, because I have a— I've since I was a very young person been really infatuated with Alan Watts, who also sometimes referred to himself as a stand-up philosopher. He used that phrase? Alan used my phrase? Alan used the phrase spiritual entertainer and stand-up philosopher frequently.

No freaking way!

In his talk. So there you go.

I had no idea. And it makes me a little bit miffed because I like to be an innovator. Oh well. Okay.

It's pretty innovative to be bringing Alan Watts back in any way, shape, or form. And I think good ideas don't belong to any one single person. So the fact that you arrived at that differently is, I think, really exciting. And You know, it's— I'm just curious about the philosophy connection because as someone that was attracted to Stoic philosophy at a very young age, 7th grade was when I first collided with the Bhagavad Gita, Stoic philosophy, Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus, and then actually the Tao Te Ching as well. I'm just curious about where did your collision with philosophy happen and how does it inform and inspire what you do now?

Okay, I have a couple different ways to answer that, but I think I'll answer it the most humorous way. I'll say I'll answer it the stand-up philosopher way. Well, first of all, I was a voracious reader when I was a kid, and I knew very early on I love books, I want to be a writer, you know, and all of that. I just read. But one of the quirkier details about me is when I was a kid, We had the Encyclopedia Britannica. That's how old I am. You too? Did your family have that? Are you Encyclopedia Britannica generation?

Yeah, I know it's hard for everyone to believe that Karen and I are almost the same age. I just look like I could be her father.

No!

But yes, we did.

Not true.

We did have the Encyclopedia Britannica in our home, and along with Funk and Wagnalls and the World Book, and I read them all.

Okay, so this is what happened. I decided it would be fun. This is my idea of fun as a kid, although I was a fun kid, but I wanted to read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica, and then I wanted to be on TV game shows and win lots of cash and prizes. So I was doing it to be on TV game shows. Anyway, uh, so my plan did not go that well. I only read like a couple things in the A book of the Encyclopedia Britannica, but then I became a fiction writer. And my parents were moving out of their childhood home. And they said, "Come get things from the childhood home." So I was writing all kinds of fiction, and I saw the Encyclopedia Britannica, and I remembered how I only read like a few things in A. And then I thought, "Oh my gosh, this would be an interesting novel if I created a character who, like me, tried to read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica and just knew all these things beginning with the letter of A." And then I sprinkled them throughout the novel and had all these A words. And there were cool ones like ants and astronomy and Aristotle. So I took the Britannica Book of A back to my New York apartment. And when I read about Aristotle, I was like, oh my gosh, Aristotle. And then I went down the Aristotle rabbit hole. And then I developed a huge, what I jokingly call, Platonic crush, you know, like wink wink, on Aristotle. And I write about him a lot and I love him so much. I named my son Ari as a wink to Aristotle. I didn't call him Aristotle. I thought that would be like child abuse or something. You know, it's too formal of a name. So he's Ari. And that began my love and passion for Aristotle and Stoicism. And then I just read around it and near it and, you know, next to it and further from it. And, you know, So I know a lot of different areas of philosophy and the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and this and that, like quantum physics. Like, I just love reading. I just love it, you know?

That's really awesome. I love that. Just another, uh, another point of intersection. We named our second son Emerson after Ralph Waldo Emerson, you know, to, to, because he's one of my, the Transcendentalists are also, uh, an interest of mine. So I love that. Well, of course, now that we're talking about philosophy, I think it's a natural segue into something that we also connected on right away. Mortality awareness. I've written about it very recently, written about it many times in my book, The Art of Encore Living, but also just recently brought The Art of Encore Living to Substack and expanded on this idea of memento mori. Remember that you die. And I think we share a lot of, a lot of alignment around what the virtues of mortality awareness, memento mori, but I'd love to hear your take. Why should we joyfully embrace the idea that it's all going to end?

Well, I think that mortality awareness doesn't have to be morbid. It can be very motivating because it reminds you, you're here and then you're not, and it's up to you to make that here part as meaningful as possible. It creates urgency, which then sparks action. Like, I believe that if we weren't mortal, we'd probably never get anything done because we're all such, you know, great procrastinators. We'd be like, yeah, I'll write that novel in the next millennium. Oh yeah, I'll tell her I love her in a billion years from now. You know, we just keep putting it off. And so when you know life is finite, it really puts fire under your tush and it reminds you, it also changes what you fear. Like instead of fearing like, oh, I'm afraid to pursue that career, or I'm afraid to say those words, you start being afraid of getting to the end of your life and having regrets. And in fact, that was one of the things I did in my book was I looked at the top regrets of the dying and I went, ouch, that could be me. I could see myself heading there. So then I reverse engineered the top regrets of the dying And I linked them to core values that if you embrace them, then it's like you're rubbing like a regret-proof sealant on you. It's like at least preventing regret somewhat from happening. Like for example, one of the top regrets of the dying, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. And there were times in my life that I guess I was working pretty hard. So I thought, well, okay, I don't wanna, I was in beast mode and I realized I wanted to be in what I call best mode. I wanted to have enough balance. So one of my core values is actually fun. And yes, that is a core value because if you're making sure that you have fun in life, then you can swerve around that regret, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. And you make sure that you prioritize that. And so I started to think about a lot of the things that the people on their deathbed said, I wish I hadn't, and how I can prevent it now. And I help people to do that.

Yeah, I love that. So the opening chapter of The Art of Encore Living is have your deathbed conversation right now because it's the most important conversation you're going to have. And you want to arrive at that moment if you're given the privilege of actually being present and aware for that moment of looking back with fewer regrets and celebrating more of the chances that you took and the that you did on purpose, with purpose, for a purpose, with and for the people that you cared about. Um, I love it too that, you know, what I'm also hearing and what you're saying is— I mean, I think that the fact that it ends is what gives life meaning. I mean, it's the invitation, life's invitation to like, hey, this is what you have.

You—

there's a journey from womb to tomb, and any meaning it has will depend on what you do while you have something to do with doing something with it. So we use the phrase "live your legacy." In other words, instead of thinking about what's— what are, you know, if I leave behind enough money and monuments, maybe my life will be remembered. It's like, no, your life will be remembered for what you're doing with it while you have the time, the ability to do something with it. And it's also a reminder, and I'm interested in your reflections on this. It's— there's this great balancing act, I think, that we as conscious beings have, which is we're always juggling, um, our, our great feelings of personal significance and our aspirations and our desires and our dreams, and, and with the fact that in, in a cosmological sense, there's not a lot of significance. It's, you know, cosmic insignificance versus personal significance. And those things are both true And we're navigating between those, um, at the same time. And that's, I think, one of the things that the Stoics invite us to do is like knowing, you know, Marcus Aurelius talks about all the time, you will be forgotten. You know, Alexander the Great has been forgotten just like his, his donkey trainer. Um, and that doesn't matter if you do the best you can with what you have while it's yours to do something with. And so How do you feel about your, you know, how does your, the edge that you play with, with mortality awareness help you navigate this idea of I wanna be successful, but I also wanna have an impact at the same time? Yes.

Okay. Everything you're saying, yes, yes, yes. I mean, you're right up my alley. It's, I love everything you're saying. I write a lot about it. And one of the things that I have people do is I— Aristotle, I'll begin with Aristotle. Aristotle says that you don't know if you've lived a good life until you're on your deathbed. And he also says that you should begin every project with the ends in mind, everything from like baking cookies to that gigantic project called your life, and think about what you want to feel on your deathbed, think about what you want your life mission to be. And he says that, and then reverse engineer it and aim yourself at it. And then he says that all of us on this planet have the same exact end goal, whether you're from Timbuktu, Toledo, Toronto, the year 2025, or Aristotle's time, you know, and that goal is to learn lessons that help you to become your highest potential. Possible self, what he calls the education of the soul. And he says that the reason why so many people are unhappy back in his time, and it applies into 2025 and next year too, and the year after that, is that too many of us have the wrong end goals for our lives. We think it's to become the richest person on the planet, to become, the sexiest person on the planet, the person with the most subscribers on Substack, you know? And he said that those are ego-directed goals, status-directed goals, lust-directed goals, all of those things. And you really have to be growth-directed. And that's kind of the difference between what he calls, and I'm going too into the weeds now, I can hear myself, but the difference between hedonia and eudaimonia and fulfillment, anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah, to cut to the chase, is if you're clear on what your end goal is and you aim yourself at the right end goal, then you're more likely to have a legacy that you're proud of, a meaningful life while you're here, all of that. And so that's why I have people write their eulogies so they can begin with the ends in mind and really think about what they want to feel, their aspirational eulogy self. Who is aspirational eulogy you? And then reverse engineer it and create bridge habits that help you to bloom into aspirational eulogy you. And in my book, I help people to do it because a lot of people are like, write my eulogy and it sounds like all the creepy crawlies of it and everything. So I include a fill-in-the-blank template, like a Mad Libs template where you fill in the blanks.. And a little secret, which I'll tell you and anybody who's listening, a lot of the blanks are core values, 'cause that's what's gonna help you to live a life that you're proud of and to grow into your best possible self. Yeah.

I really, I love that. And that, you know, one of the things that the Stoics borrow quite a bit from the academics, Aristotle and his crew, but you know, they put up Socrates as possibly one of the two possible sages that actually lived a life of complete value virtue alignment. And actually, and you bring up one of my favorite words, eudaimonia, which is this idea of human flourishing, right? And so how do we live? Because part of what Aristotle and the Stoics and most ancient philosophies, including Eastern philosophies and Indian philosophies, were wrestling with was, um, you know, for instance, in the Bhagavad Gita it says you are entitled to your labor but not the fruits of your labor, meaning that you are here to do, perform your sacred duty, to do the work that life is calling you to do. That doesn't mean that you get any of the rewards of being hardworking, virtuous, and all that, that the, the ends are kind of up to destiny, fate, what have you. And, uh, but it's the way that you approach the work that will determine your— what you were saying, your virtue, right? Which is— so your values. And as someone that loves to start people off with, let's take the Values in Action, uh, Character Strengths Survey to find out, like, what are the 5 things that are actually most important to you? Because that is— I agree with you, uh, part of the core of who you are. Like, if you could define your core values and guiding principles, your core talents and the hard skills that you learned in school and on the job that reflect those talents, then it becomes much easier to figure out where the work you're meant to do now is, because you're supposed to be doing work that you, that you love to do and are really great at with people who share your values and need your talents to enhance their lives. And so that, that idea of values is what you believe to be, you know, what your core values and beliefs are. And virtue is the way that we express those values in our daily actions. And sometimes that's harder for people to see, right? And sometimes we don't always act upon the person that we hope we are and want to become. So that idea of eudaimonia is that regardless of whether we accomplish the trappings of success as we think of it, as human beings in terms of fame and fortune. A well-lived life is a life lived in accord with virtue, and that's sufficient to live, uh, a good life. And so I, you know, I, I, I just basically just did a ramble there, but I'm curious for any, love it, any, anything that, that brings up, because, you know, a lot of the stuff from the Stoics was borrowed from the Socratics and the, and the, uh, academics and values are the source of the good life.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. So, okay. So I think I have so many different directions to go. My brain is like, go here. No, tell them this. No, tell them that. But I think this is what I'm going to say. My book obviously is about the benefits of mortality awareness and what it means to live. It's kind of a book on living a meaningful life. In some ways, it's not even a book about death. It's about life and living a meaningful one. But one of the things that I remind people of is at your funeral, nobody's going to get up there and read your LinkedIn profile. Nobody. Oh no. No, they're not going to do that. Nope. And they're not going to print out your Google Calendar and pass it around the room and say, look at that. She always made her dentist appointments. Oh, she always answered her emails, you know, whatever it is. What they're going to do is they're going to tell stories about you. And the story's going to be things like, oh, I remember he was so kind when I was sick. He brought over my favorite soup. Oh, I remember when I was struggling with my career, he generously mentored me and helped me to, you know, whatever it is. Each of the stories that they're going to tell are inspired by a core value that you lived. Kind, brave, every story is a story of core values that you lived. This is what your legacy is, not just the big ones, but the little ones, the ripples of who you are. And so you think about that. And then one of the things that I have, I help people to do, and it's all in the book. I'm giving away the book, but I'm not giving it all away. So you can still read the book and get surprises in there, um, is because I'm a behavioral change expert, I have this whole system based on taking the core values and creating what's called identity-based statements with the core values because you're more likely to do a habit if you have the core value in it. So for example, um, a while ago, my friend, uh, Danielle, used to live in Manhattan, got married, then got a place in Connecticut, and she was going to have a birthday party in Connecticut, and she invited me. I live in Manhattan. You can see even with the bad weather, that's Manhattan back there. And I don't drive a car. And I'm like a, like a kind of like a stereotypical Sex and the City. My driver's license ran out and I never got it renewed. And so when I first got her birthday invitation, I thought, Oh God, how do I get to Connecticut? I guess I won't be going to Danielle's birthday party, right? My first impulsive thought. And then because I have my eulogy, which reminds me that meaningful relationships are very important, being a loving, good friend is important. I wrote down, I'm a loving person. And so I find a way to get myself to Connecticut. And I just, I link it to a core value because if, If I link it and I don't go to Danielle's birthday party, then, oh gosh, am I not a loving person? I'm not a good friend. You know, the more you link things to core value, the more you create accountability because it creates cognitive dissonance if you don't live that way. So to live constantly aware of your core values kind of extra ensures identity is destiny. And in fact, identity is the puppet master of your habits. Who you think you are is what you wind up doing. And we're doing it now on a subconscious basis. I am, if you think I'm sloppy, you're gonna be sloppy. If you think I'm organized, you're gonna be organized. So if you change, you tweak your identity a little with an I am and so I do statement, you're more likely to do it. So that's one of my core values, Awakeners, that I, one of the many that I share in my book, You're To Die for Life.

So I love that. One of my favorite pre-Socratic, uh, philosophers is Heraclitus, who says character is fate. And, uh, that totally resonates with what you just said. And I also love the idea— one of the things that I, I've written about, my most popular blog post of all time, is about values and virtues, which is, uh, talks a little bit about the fact, you, like, character is who we think we are, like the beliefs that we have, the values that we have, the guiding principles that we say that we adhere to. But reputation is what other people interpret based on what they see. And it doesn't mean that character and reputation are separate things. The goal is if you actually express your values through your day-to-day actions, even the most simple ones, then character and reputation can increasingly align and the Venn diagram gets, you know, there's more in the center of that Venn diagram, which makes it possible to, again, what we were saying, what you were saying before, it helps you live a life that's more fully expresses who you actually are and who you're trying to become through those values that you were talking about. Well, I know that we're taking a lot of your time here, and I do want to be respectful of that and start to wind things up. But there's one thing that you said earlier that I can't help but touch on. And it was— and, and it's actually, you express it in all of your answers. You have this, you know, your, your food metaphors and your— the way you dance with philosophy and weave that into what you do. There's this element of playfulness in the way that you approach things. And playfulness is one of my core values, and it's something that I think actually helps— can help anyone live a more meaningful and fulfilling life. Because part of playfulness is not taking yourself too damn seriously, but— and, and, and not being productive for productivity's sake, but trying to make progress towards meaningful goals, which probably involve the justice in the sense of being— of fairness and, uh, and improving the well-being of everyone that's touched by you and, and your life and your work. And so I'd love to wrap up on just your take on what role, if any, have you thought about in terms of the role of playfulness and how does it help you do what you do in a way that's more connected, human, and impactful?

Well, first of all, you're very insightful and almost clairvoyant because I gave a TED Talk called Fun is a High-Performance Fuel. The power of play at work. So you keyed in on something, you smart boy, you.

Every once in a while I get one right. What can I say?

So playfulness is extremely important. As I told you, fun is one of my top core values. And I do think I get my best ideas when I'm in a playful mood. So I I've always noticed that. And in fact, when I used to be in advertising, I would notice it so much. Like my art director and I would just make jokes, make jokes, make jokes. And then we'd be like, oops, we forgot to work. But in that mindset of playfulness, our best ideas would come. So, and I also think that, but I'm gonna give you a caveat to that, which is I use humor a lot and I think humor instructs And that's part of the reason why I like humor in a book about death, because it breaks down the barriers and it's like, okay, I'll let you talk about death to me, you know? So it does that. And it breaks down barriers, like if you're struggling and you've had like a breakup or something terrible, a little joke here and there with the right, you know, the right tone can help you to see that insight. You know, you go from like, haha to aha. You know, very quickly with that humor. Sometimes I think it's because it kind of loosens up your ego to something. It's like it removes your ego. If you're able to laugh at yourself, it means you're on your way to healing. You know, you really are. But the other thing that I wanna say is that the difference between young me and ancient me, that's why I like Aristotle. He's somebody that's older than I am, so I feel young next to Aristotle. No, but, But younger me, when I look back on her, I think I used humor as a protection skill. And I know you asked about playfulness, but I see them kind of intertwined. And so my caveat is that it has to be a mixture, a blend of playfulness but seriousness, that perfect blend, which is like a poignant blend. Where if it's just too slapstick playful, no, no, not for me. And also make sure that you're not using humor as a deflector and playfulness is like not being in your life fully. So that would be what ancient me would advise about that. I guess it's an Aristotelian thing too, that do everything in moderation, you know, that any extreme is not good.

So, yeah, the golden mean. Yeah. Yes, I love that. Yeah, well, the thing that comes up for me is it's called the game of life, and you know, you can— there's two ways to play a game: the infinite game and the finite game. And the finite game is the one where it's all about winning and competition, and you can only win if everyone else loses. And it's not very joyful or playful, uh, it— as much as it is competitive. But the finite game of life is where the object of the game is to stay in the game and to bring as many other people to play along with you. And, you know, if it's, if it's called the Game of Life, it's probably supposed to be fun. And so why not, why not make it a little more so? So as we're coming to the end here, Karen, we've got lots of folks here. Some of them are just hopping on. And I'm sorry to say that we'll be wrapping up here in just a minute, but the replay will be available. But The audience for Creative on Purpose, The Art of Encore Living, Transcendent Solopreneurship, they all share this desire to live a more prosperous, purpose-driven life, doing work that matters with people they care about. And we talked about a lot of things, and you've shared a lot of wisdom about how folks can do that. If there's just one final— could be a quote, it can be an anecdote, or just a principle or idea or practice that someone could take away from the end of this conversation and apply it immediately to what they decide and do next that would help them show up a little bit more presently, a little bit more joyfully, and maybe half a shade braver stepping into the possibility that they imagined for themselves. What would you share?

Well, I mean, gosh, I did say so many things. So to ask yourself, would this matter to deathbed you? Would be like a quick shorthand for it. And you're mortal, quit dawdling, like to just remind yourself of the finite nature of life. But a tool, gosh, I have so many, I'm trying to think. I mean, one of them is a little bit longer. If I start to tell it, it's a big story. So should I do that or not? I don't know.

I think, I mean, there are folks that are just literally hopping on. I'm sure they would love to hear.

Do you know what I can do? I can dip into it, but it's one of my articles on Substack that kind of went a little bit like it did very like, I don't know, it had like 200 likes and all of that. So you can read the rest of it if you're curious. But one of the things I did a couple of years ago was, and sounds a little morbid, but it's actually playful. You see, there's that blending. I, I counted how many months I have left to live. If I live to 100, 'cause I promised my son I'd live to 100. He asked me to live to 200, but I, I bargained him down and he accepted my counteroffer. So I found out, and I forgot now because I did this so long ago, I think it was like 437 months left to live. And so I went on Amazon and I bought, I bought 437 marbles, or actually I wound up buying 500 marbles. And it was kind of depressing because when the 500 marbles came, the first thing I had to do was like remove like 78 marbles or whatever it was, you know? I'm like, well, I guess I don't get to live those months, you know, whatever. And then I bought 2 tall glass container tower type things and I put the marbles in one and then one started off empty. And every month at the beginning of the month, I remove a marble. And I hold it in my hand and I think, this is a piece of my life. That was last month. What did I do last month? How did I use this tiny piece of my life? And the first time I did it was a little bit depressing because I couldn't really remember. I was like, ah, I had a dental implant. Like, I was like, oh, I remember like something very not even that great. And I'm like, okay, I got to do better. You know, it reminds you to live intentionally and the marble jars work as sort of as accountability buddies and And they actually, I keep them in the kitchen. They even help me stay on my diet 'cause I'm thinking I have to live to 100. Do I really want more ice cream? So they have many benefits. And every month I, at the be— and then it also gets me thinking about the future. Sometimes I'll look in the marble jar, I'm like, what am I gonna do for next month? And then when something shows up or you plan things extra, like I'm gonna visit my mother, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to a play with my friend Robin who loves plays. I'm gonna, you know, but somebody was visiting from out of town and I remember thinking because I err on the side of being, you know, in beast mode, I wanna live in best mode. Hey Karen, I'm in town, can you meet me? And I'm like, oh, so busy. But then I'm like, oh, the marble jar. This is good for the marble jar. You know, I mean like I don't think of it like that, but I sort of do. I kinda do. Okay, I'm gonna meet you. And it just gets you to step up a little. And it's a visual tool. You can literally see your time slip through your fingers as you dip your hand into the marbles. And I write about it more on my Substack if you're interested. That's the quickest version I could tell.

That's really fantastic. Well, it gives a whole new meaning to losing your marbles and playing for all the marbles. I'll say that. So that's a fantastic exercise and a perfect place for us to put, to wrap a bow on this conversation. Karen, it's been an absolute privilege and pleasure to chat with you, uh, about death and, uh, how it inspires more joyful living and all the other things that we talked about today. For the folks that, um, have arrived late or didn't catch it at the beginning, give us the name of your Substack one more time.

Oh, sure. Uh, The Standup Philosopher, and my name is Karen Salmonson, and my book is Your To Die For Life. How to Maximum— Maximize Joy and Minimize Regret Before Your Time Runs Out.

Beautiful. So check out Karen and all the places that she lives and where she delivers all of her wisdom. And for those of you that arrived late, sorry that you're catching the end, but the replay will be available. And it's always a privilege and a pleasure to have you visit us at Creative On Purpose on Substack as well. And we'll look forward to catching up and keeping up with you, Karen, on Substack. I hope we can do this again. And thanks so much for the benefit of your time. Experience and wisdom.

I had so much fun talking to you. Thank you. And you are definitely living by the core value of playful, because this was a very playful conversation. Thank you so much. All right.

Thank you, Karen. Goodbye, everybody.

Bye.