How to Divorce a Narcissist: Expert Strategies with Vani Kovitch

Hey everybody, this is Scott Levin. I'm Chief Peacekeeper, uh, and I am joined today by Vonnie Kovach. How are you?

Good, how are you?

I'm doing well. I could introduce you, but can you maybe— you'll do better service if you could tell the folks a little bit about your background and what you do, and then I'm going to ask you some fun and interesting questions here.

Okay, so I am a high-conflict divorce coach. Um, I also host my own podcast regarding that topic, um, Endgame: Mastering the High-Conflict Divorce. I help people who are trying to navigate divorcing their spouse who is a narcissistic personality disorder. I mean, they don't have to be diagnosed as that, but basically people trying to divorce narcissists, um, because it— that's considered high conflict. It's not going to be like a regular divorce, and they will need help, um, and guidance on how they're going to do this.

So let me ask you a question to start. How do you have the expertise? I know the answer to this, but like, your expertise And specific desire to serve in this, in this one high-conflict role, uh, where does that come from?

So it came from my own personal journey with my own very high-conflict divorce, um, and I was looking for somebody that is offering the services I'm offering when I was going through it, and I had a very hard time. I kept You know, I would find people and I would, you know, make appointments and see if they could help me. And they, they weren't telling me or helping me organize and do things, anything that I wasn't already doing myself. And I don't know, it was such an impact and so trans— you know, it was such, it was such an impact and such like a huge experience in my life that I felt that I needed to do this for other people. So then I looked into, well, how could I do that? And there are different courses in different places that offer certifications for divorce coaching, um, and then high-conflict divorce coaching. And so I looked into that and I chose the program that I wanted to do. Um, then I went through that and then, yeah, that's how it all got started. And it's very fulfilling.

I'm sure, you know, when people come to me as a mediation specialist with narcissistic, you know, concerns, I mean, first of all, I mean, that word is really thrown around a lot. When you experience narcissism, it's like, oh God, like, I just now I get it. I get when you, when you first experience it, you're like, wow, I get it now. And they're really difficult cases. to mediate because in general narcissistic personalities aren't looking to resolve anything other than defeating the other person or winning, however you want to frame it. But, um, uh, I guess let me start with, um, at what point does someone, uh, start to realize that they're not dealing with like a normal divorce conflict, uh, but something more, you know, complex and, and, and in that way?

Well, immediately, um, just by the way you're informed of the divorce, um, by how it's immediately set up so that you are almost blindsided in a way, um, even if you felt it coming, it just— the degree and the, the degree of aggression And just the whole energy around it is— it happens immediately. You are immediately frightened and panicked. It's very, very scary. I mean, you basically know immediately that this is not going to be a normal kind of thing, that this is— there's— it's intense right from jump.

And so when you're in a When you hire a divorce lawyer and you're going through the process with someone that has that personality disorder, they aren't going to react well, as we all know, to a lawyer trying to tell them what to do. Do you work with your clients and their counsel to strategize on how to interact or how to communicate? Or what to communicate, or is the lawyer kind of off to the side?

Well, so originally, ideally, I like to help my clients find the right divorce attorney for them, because what happens is most of the time people are so scared and panicked that they run out and think, let me just hire like the biggest name, most expensive that I can afford, and that'll be, that'll be the answer to all of my nightmare divorce problems. That's basically how people think, right? And they're running around town. Next, by the time they— sadly, most of the time, by the— when I get to my clients, they're already on their second attorney.

Yeah.

Or, I mean, it's, it's a nightmare. And you know, Scott, in your business, I mean, you, I— you understand perfectly. But to answer your actual question, um, I I help them deal with how they're going to, how they're going to communicate with their narcissist from here on out. There's a plan. How I've helped them to organize all sorts of evidence for their attorney. I don't, I don't in particular work right with them and their attorney, but I'm helping them align with the plan that they should have going. with their own attorney, um, because a lot of the issues that my clients will have, that's not something that they're— that's not their attorney's job, you know. And so that's how things get mucked up. And I basically say I help them to help their attorney help them.

Yeah, I love that. Um, and, you know, if they've— the, the mistakes they may have made with their first attorney, you know, is using that person as a, you know, for an emotional or psychological, like, kind of concerns, and they're not really capable of helping people with those things.

Right, right. And when you're dealing with that, you have a hard time regulating your system and what's going on, and you're not thinking rationally, and you sort of are spiraling. And that is not how you want to be working with your attorney. You want to be calm and able to basically tell your attorney what you think should be happening, and you should be understanding the whole strategy and not just calling them nonstop. And, you know, it's, it's a whole situation. It's very complex.

It is very complex. And my advice to anyone— so I'm a— I used to litigate cases for a lot of years. Once any lawyer that has any degree of experience knows when the case— when their relationship with their client is spiraling down the wrong hole. And when that happens, most family law attorneys just assume they're going to be off the case at some point, kind of hope they are, and they start to interact with them in a way that encourages that separation to happen sooner rather than later.

Exactly. It's very frustrating because we see this, right? And I learned very quickly in my own journey, immediately I realized, oh, I need to take a breath. I don't want to look crazy to my attorney, who I really vetted and found and knew that he was the right one. So I had to quickly calm myself and take everything in a very factual, very rational way. And in the end, we worked really well together. And to this day, we still are in contact. But yeah, it's— People don't realize, like, you're gonna drive your attorney away. You know, they have other clients. Or if, say, they're in court, obviously when you're in court that week, that takes precedence. Just as, you know, as, as if I'm your, you know, client, I would want you to do that for me if, God forbid, we have to go to court, right?

Um, if someone's listening right now that's like kind of trapped in that cycle or, or just trapped in the high-conflict divorce? Because the high-conflict divorce cases don't move quickly, typically.

Oh, no.

So, like, you're— a lot of people start to feel trapped. So, like, I get calls from people all the time, uh, they're a year in, nothing has happened, they can't get the disclosures, uh, there's no proposals for resolving anything being exchanged, and they're kind of just stuck. But, you know, again, for mediation to work with those personalities, it really requires that, that, that, that person is almost initiating the conversation with the mediator, because then there's at least some desire.

Exactly.

To be, you know, if they're dragged into the mediation, it's not going to work out. But if you have— if someone's trapped in that cycle, what would you want them to hear most from you?

The cycle of like bumping into all the attorneys that they have to keep firing and hiring.

And they're just kind of stuck. Nothing's happening. It's a year and a half in and they're just spending a lot of money.

And they're so interesting that you asked me this, Scott, because very recently I had someone come to me and they actually had filed very recently. They were very early on in the process, which is my best and favorite client to help because they haven't made major mistakes yet, right? So I'm so excited when this happens. And they've already run around and have hired and fired 2 or 3 attorneys.

Mm-hmm.

And this is like, no. I mean, I was trying to explain why it is so important to find the right one and that Nothing is going to happen in one week. And this person was hysterical that the attorney that I did hook them up with, because that's the other, you know, major service that I offer, is once I hear their situation, if I have the resources, I try and connect them with the proper resources for their situation in their case. But because that attorney was in court that week and couldn't see them immediately. I mean, could see them by the end of the week. And they were like, nope, nope, I can't go a week without counsel. And I'm like, why? Nothing's going to happen in a week. Your spouse is already in another state with, you know, a new partner. Now is the time to really take a breath. And now that you have come to me, were going to sit down, breathe, and figure this out calmly, but they were just panicked. And, you know, when people are panicked and scared and you make decisions out of fear, it's just a spiral. It just—

Yeah.

You know, and it was so frustrating and upsetting that they couldn't hold on for a week to meet with this attorney who I really felt was was gonna be for them. I mean, and on so many levels.

But, um, I mean, if there's someone that comes to an attorney having fired, you know, or separated themselves from 2 or 3 attorneys, they're gonna charge the ever-living F out of them.

Well, it's a huge red flag, right, Scott?

They're not going to take the case unless it's financially beneficial to them.

Red flags when somebody comes to you and they're, they're You know, on their third attorney. That's— and that's what I really want people to understand. You know, I know it's scary, and I know it's, it's this fear and this panic, and you want— you think everything is so urgent because you're living in this, like, spiraling. You're just not present. And that's where I would like for them to actually let me do my job and help them. I love it. Like, let me help you deal with this because first of all, I was there. I know how frightening it is. And you really think in your head like, no, no, no, this has to happen today, today, by the end of today. And no, it doesn't. And let's not be— let's really breathe and try to regulate ourselves.

And so with that in mind, like, what are the things when you have a client, it's, let's say it's the perfect situation or not. What are the things they can do, like immediately, that you try to help them do to regain that emotional stability?

Okay, so first of all, we talk about their ex, the narcissist, and what is going on because normally there's a lot of drama and la la la. And so just to like really address immediately the thing that's terrifying because all this action and drama coming, we identify well what kind of narcissist is. is your spouse. So there's 3 main ones that I like to, you know, work with that we can identify. And I made up this quiz on my website, Vonnie Divorce Coach.

Yeah.

It's which kind of narcissist are you dealing with? And you take the quiz and basically it's either going to be a grandiose narcissist, a covert narcissist, or a malignant. And depending on which type, then that will inform how you're going to deal with them and how you're going to communicate with them moving forward. And so we come up with, okay, now from now on, this is how you're going to communicate. No more phone calls. It's only going to be over a court-approved text, like, um, app, texting app, like My Family Wizard, or there are many.

Okay.

Yeah, but, or emails, but no more, no more telephone calls. We just sort of break down, we stop the cycle because they're just, they're so used to going round and round with this person, you know. Like, I have one, I had the one client who was like, oh my gosh, you know, he, he texts me like every 30 minutes, and when I hear that bell, I just Feel that. I'm like, what if you put your phone away while you're doing these 3— this activity for 3 hours? It's not gonna kill you. They're so used to reacting, you know, to the narcissist, like it never even occurred to them. No, just put— turn that off. There's nothing that can be done right now.

Do— with the 3 types of narcissists, do they overlap, or is it very common for them to for a person to fall within one of those 3?

It's very much obvious that they're one of the 3. Yeah, I mean, they're all connected in that— look, the, the ultimate definition is there's, there's no empathy. They just do not— narcissists do not have empathy. They just don't. They're— they were missing that chip. However, they do present in these 3 very Yeah.

Uh, what— at what point— okay, so let me just pause real quick and say that, uh, like when I give talks to, you know, divorce workshops and other, you know, venues, and, uh, I tell— when the narcissist— people always want to know, well, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm trying to divorce a narcissist. And I ask, well, so how many of you are divorcing a narcissist, do you think? And it's like 80% of the room raises their hands. And I usually say, maybe this is not a narcissist. This is me just being foolish, but it's usually like the reality is more like it's the people without their hands raised. That percentage is really like who's dealing with a true narcissistic case. But what I like to tell people as someone that mediates and doesn't believe in fighting in court, if at all possible, is that there's 2 imperfect processes. Okay, one is in court and one is in mediation. I would want to try to go the mediation route to see if there's progress made before I enter the court process. The last thing I would want to do is have a 3.5-year-long divorce process with a narcissist.

Yeah.

Not to say mediation is an answer, but if you can get out of it quickly, Try there.

Yeah.

Because nothing's going to happen quick when you have a lawyer that's, you know, belittling or demeaning or questioning the validity of the financial disclosures or questioning the narcissist's statements and the veracity of those statements. I mean, they don't act— they're not going to react well to that. They're going to push back and it's going to be a problem. So let me just say that. But If you can get through the divorce process, at what point do you— is there like a moment where you, like, you feel free again? Does that ever happen while the divorce is ongoing, or does that require that everything be settled and resolved, and then you, at some point in time, you can move forward and you feel like yourself?

Well, it really depends on that particular person and their particular situation, right? Because sometimes people will come to me and the divorce is already settled and they're saying it's not over. They either— either they're not honoring the settlement and that's an issue, or they just want to continue to torture this person, you know?

Like, that's got to be very common, right? Like, yeah.

Yeah, it really depends on your particular situation. I mean, I think the worst is I had this one man reach out to me and he had told— he was like, no, it's over, we've signed the settlement. He basically gave all the things because that's how the narcissist works. It's got to be their way or the highway, and it's all of their, all of their things they have to get. And this person was so worn down that He gave— he, you know, was— he acquiesced to all the things, even not seeing his children as much. Like, it was very heartbreaking, and it's over. And he's upset because now this ex-narcissist is trying to get to his girlfriend's family and destroy that relationship. And he was in tears saying, my girlfriend's about to break up with me because of this.

Yeah.

You know, and it was just So heartbreaking, Scott. And so that's the thing, is that I help them where they are at. Either if you're still in the fight before the settlement, then let's get that done so that you don't settle until you feel like this is right. Because the narcissist will keep trying to pull all the stops. They figure, I have all the money and the time in the world, and they don't like to lose. So let's keep this going, you know.

And do they— and so you're saying that like you have to get the court to make a ruling essentially before, or, or you resolve it on terms that are more in line with like what, you know, the F word, the fairness?

That, or if you know your narcissist well, let's think of leverage. What can you do?

You—

I mean, for example, for my own, it was very much looking like we were gonna have to go to to trial, which, as you and I know, you don't want that. You don't want a judge to just be, you know, to do— to be in charge of what's going to happen for the rest of your life with this situation, right? Like, that's scary. But I—

Narcissists come off well in front of judges too.

Oh, completely. And they hire narcissist attorneys.

Yes.

Like, most likely, because you normally hire the attorney that's like yourself, that's the same mindset, right? So we were very close to having to go to trial, and there was one thing that I knew he just couldn't stand to have to do, and it was in our prenup. And he was just like— I knew it was just like driving him crazy. And so towards the end, when we were heading to possible trial, I went into that element and I came up with something. And I actually went to him myself and said, what do you think if we did this instead? And honestly, that was the thing that made him finally consider coming to the table.

I like that. You know, I have 2 cases recently that, um, that I think were, you know, mediations with narcissists, and, and, uh, I was actually surprised that they went as well as they did. I mean, they still were longer than a regular mediation, but we got both done. And, um, At some point during the discussions, as it seemed more likely that we were going to get to a settlement agreement, in 2 separate cases, both were men, both said to me at some point, I promised my adult children— they had adult children— I promised my kids I would do this in a way that was respectful.

Yeah.

And I don't know, I feel like most of the time I'm dealing, their kids are almost on their side or they don't really understand what's happening. Both of them said that, and I was like, is, is that what got them to the table? Yeah, certainly. I don't think it was anything I said, you know, specifically, but, um, they were just like more, way more amenable to, to getting a deal done that wasn't dictated by them than I'm used to.

Well, were, were they the ones that were, you think, dealing with the narcissist partner, or were they the narcissists?

They were the narcissists, of course, you know.

So then I would question if they really are though, because I know they— narcissists don't— they wouldn't think that way, Scott. I know they don't care about the kids. The kids will be used as leverage and pawns. They don't ever think that.

So that's another example, is I guess so, like, I— when I, when I say how many of you think you're, you know, divorced with a narcissist, when 85% of the room raises their hands You know, I really think it's like, you know, there's— you have to distinguish between personality disorders or, or high conflict and true narcissism. They're 2 different things. When you run into it, you have no doubt that you've run into it.

That's right, exactly. It is a brick wall. I mean, because no, they don't know, they don't want it, they have no in-between. It's got to be their way. It's got to. They're bullies. Uh, unfortunately, they have the, the finances and the funds to drag this out, normally to the point where you are— have run out of money, and now you have to just agree.

Yeah, exactly. Does it impact a narcissist if they start a new relationship during the divorce? Does that alter their willingness? That's what I've experienced.

Yes, so that is a very good question, and to answer that Yes, that is what you hope to God your narcissist does. Because look, it's easier if the narcissist wants to discard you. I mean, it's— sorry, let's not say easier, less frightening. But God forbid you be the one to try and leave them. God help you. But the good thing is, yes, if the narcissist has already discarded and have found like new supply That sometimes will be the catalyst to wrap things up quickly. So yes, that most of the time that is helpful because they found new supply, they want to get on with it. So that's when you have some room, you know, now you've got a little leverage. So that— please hope and pray that they meet somebody right away.

Is part of that the fear from them that like they'll be like, um, Like that, that new person will be— will view them as less of a good person, or less, you know, they'll view them in a negative way if they feel like, oh my God, this guy's really— or this woman's really taking their spouse to the woodshed.

Like, they don't want that. Yeah, that's one of the things. That's one of the things, because they always want to come across looking amazing and never in any way that could be spun that there's something you know, dark underneath. But there's that. But also mostly it's that they have found this new supply. It's like being a vampire and you've sucked the blood out of this one victim, there's hardly any left, there's a few drops, but oh my God, you just found this new amazing victim with a ton of blood. And you know, like, yeah, it's about moving on to the new supply. Like, they just— it's a whole cycle for them. So if that could happen, that's actually great because now you have more of a chance, right, to survive.

I like that. That's great. So, um, well, we can't cover every potential topic in the world about this issue, but, um, I— when I went to, uh, Bonnie's website, bonnie, uh, divorcecoach.com, you know, and I saw that the, um, You know, that was not the test. What's called the, uh, the quiz. Quiz. Yeah, quiz. Sorry.

Which kind of narcissist are you dealing with?

Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh my God, like, I've read all these books and all the— like, I never really— it never— I've never seen anyone break it down as simply as that. And sometimes, like, you know, simplicity— like, when I write these legal agreements, I'm trying to write them for a 4th grader. I'm not trying to— yeah, I'm not trying to impress other lawyers with how fancy I can write, especially with AI these days. Most lawyers aren't even writing anything. I'm trying to write this document so that in 7 years or 13 years or whatever down the road, if somebody has to look at this, what does it mean? What does it say?

Yeah.

And I just never had— I've never seen someone break it down in that way so simply. And I was just really impressed, uh, with, uh, your site and all the information. So I want people to go to your site. You work all over the United States, or I guess anywhere, as long as, you know, in the world necessarily, right?

Yes, I do. But it is so funny, my first few clients were from UK, actually. Um, and they have completely different laws and custody issues, you know, completely different.

Yeah.

But even within the States, every single state has their own, you know, matrimonial laws, right? I mean, right now we're in California, and that's the whole community property thing. Community property is different here, and it's so important to understand the matrimonial laws in your state.

Absolutely. Everything's different. Yeah. Lawyers, family law attorneys rarely are licensed. Like, when I was practicing civil litigation, I was licensed in Washington, DC, in Texas, Wyoming. But when I focus on family law, very rare to have family law attorneys licensed in multiple states because of that issue.

Exactly.

But I just want people to go find you, to talk with you. Do you do a consult?

You have a calendar, or how do people get So they can go to my website, Vonnie Divorce Coach, or DM me, um, on my Instagram @vonniekovich. But basically, I— the first is a consult. It's a free consult. And, uh, so I want to make sure that I can actually help this person. If I don't think I can help you, then no, you know, I don't want to waste your time and money and energy and all the things. But if I think I can be helpful, then yes, then we will move forward if you would like to. Um, and then, you know, I'll send a proposal. And yeah, it's very individualized. It really depends on the person and what exactly they're dealing with and which kind of narcissist are they trying to divorce. Yeah. In which state is their custody?

With these podcasts, like, just so people know, like, you know, You know, most people I talk to, like, we, we talk for the first time on the podcast and we record the podcast. Like, Ronnie is just like a really thoughtful, considerate person. Like, we met a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to feel me out a little bit, like, make sure it was a fit for her. Now she's probably regretting it, but he's just really, like, uniquely thoughtful. And I just don't see a lot of that. I see a lot of rushing ahead in family law and in this universe.

Yeah.

Like, got this next thing next? Like, this is it. Like, oh, okay, let's record this 20-minute thing that no one's gonna, you know, ever tell me about. But like, it's just like really rare and refreshing, and I really just appreciated that about you.

Thank you, Scott. Thank you. And I appreciate you, you know, being receptive to that because you were like, wait, well, we could do it now, but, but I like to make sure again, right? Like, can I be of service to this? Is this right? Because if it's not, Then maybe not. But yeah, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, everybody.

Of course. And hopefully, maybe we'll come back and do another one and we can narrow— we can do another one down the road. But appreciate everyone listening. Hopefully it was helpful. These conversations are supposed to be introductions from here. Contact Bonnie, contact me, however I can help. You know how to reach me. But until next time, thank you so much, Bonnie, and look forward to talking To you soon.

Yes, thanks, Scott.