Building Revenue Engines featuring Jeff Davis

a video. How about that?

Cool.

There we go. I'm a real person. Good afternoon.

A real boy with no strings.

And I actually might keep this blurred. Yeah, whatever, because I got this light thing behind me that's really causing an issue.

Oh, is that like window?

It's a window, and we have like a— it's, it's, it's a very thin Um, curtain on it. Let me see what it looks like without it.

Yeah, boom. Mike, big mic check.

I think that's worse. Okay, I'm gonna keep it on blur, which I don't stereotypically like, but okay, cool, cool. Here we go.

What's going on, man?

Not much, trying to save the world.

Uh, that's a never-ending battle.

Please. And the funny thing is I'm trying to get this, my fucking podcast, up off the ground, and I am the limiting factor, which is I cannot blame anybody. So I'm actually gonna start, uh, doing what I need to do this weekend. So yeah, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on at the same time, but I'm not complaining at all.

Yeah, it's just time, you know. It's like you— at some point, I think people like us get so busy, it just becomes a like, what can I cut? And there's not much to cut.

No.

And yeah.

Go for it.

Go for it.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's just like cutting into bone and it's like you have these amazing things that, you know, are like viable, can work. And then it's just, I was talking to a guy the other day, it's like the opportunity space is so large, the problem space is so large and it's like your skill set, you know, after many, many decades in a career becomes large. So it's like, what's the thing that I do that can have a big impact? Yeah, it's hard. It's— you got to take time to think about it.

Well, and, and, you know, my thing is the podcast will really be the— oh wait, is this the podcast, by the way?

Yeah, this is it, man.

See, I keep it—

I like to keep it super authentic and organic.

I thought about it. I was like, I think this is the podcast.

Yeah.

Um, well, thank you for confirming that. Yeah, you've learned my secret now, which I'm okay with. But, uh, well, not really, but it's all— it's all good now. It's fine. Um, No, what I was saying was, is that like, I know that the podcast is gonna be the way for me, the, the most efficient, effective way for me to organize like the work that I do.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's just that like, I think this being my second go-round, I think my expectations are higher, which I also have to kind of like check myself. Um, because, you know, the first one I did all by myself besides the audio engineering, did everything. And, uh, but it's a lot easier because this time around we want to do video.

Yeah.

So that makes things more complicated because you have to worry about like, are your guests comfortable with camera? And like, are— is the office set up? All that sort of stuff. So yeah, it is not the same type of podcast by virtue of the video element. So that's what's kind of keeping things not moving as quickly forward as I would like to.

Yeah.

They're moving forward, you know, people like us are probably pushers.

So yeah, yeah, I found— I mean, I can tell you my experience with it. Like, I, I was pretty deliberate about the way I set my thing up. And so it was like, I want to just test different tactics in the market and my content and message through different mediums. And the message for me was just like, hey, professional services stuff, right? Like business stuff, tech stuff, like things I know, right? So I know I have some Asset there.

Yeah.

And then I tested a bunch of different channels, like all the different media formats. I tested all the different social networks, all the different distribution mechanisms. And what I found is, this is where I came to. So I'm almost, I'm 2 months in, I just broke 13,000 subscribers and I'm quadrupling every month.

Wow.

And I'm doing it in like an hour a day, 2 hours a day, and then for like a week I didn't do anything. It was all a hypothesis test. So what I found was like start with video, extract the audio from that, extract the text from that.

Yep.

Put it through a podcast distribution mechanism through all the different like podcasts like Spaces and everything else. And It really took off where other channels don't. I mean, a lot of people talk about like TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts and like Twitter. And honestly, I've found that those platforms, they might give you like a little punch or even LinkedIn, like every once in a while you'll hit something and it'll go.

Yeah.

But for some reason, like the podcast medium, if you own your own RSS feed, which I think is critical on your property and then you distribute it everywhere It really works. It really works. And so, and the gloss, I think the gloss almost takes up too much of your time and doesn't matter as much, at least in the early stage, because it's the—

Gloss. And when you say gloss, what does that mean?

Like spend 2 hours doing an intro video and like getting like really high-res like thumbnail images for the title of the video, you know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. People skim past it like no one gives a shit. Like, just get me to the meat, you know what I mean?

Yeah. I think, I think 2 things. So I think the audience is, is, is important, um, because I'm, I'm following a similar model. But I will also say to you, people have gotten much more comfortable, and I would even say have moved away from overly produced content because they assume that the quality of it is low, right? So I even— which is, which, I mean, it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. And I find myself, because I'm such an OCD perfectionist, I like to produce what I like to see. But to your point, I have to remind myself that that is not what the audience requires. They require quality content, a message that they, you know, they believe that you know about. They believe, you know, they want to see you as a subject matter expert. And so I am, you know, and I'm guilty of this, I get caught up even on the first podcast. I would say I think I It's a catch-22. I think the reason that I was able to achieve the success I did being a brand new podcaster, having no experience, not, not really having a brand and getting, you know, CMOs and CEOs on the podcast was because of my focus on the quality of the conversation and the content and being very thoughtful in really crafting, uh, something that was worth listening to versus just getting on and talking, right? Which some people just—

Right.

you know, get on and talk. And it obviously depends on your target audience, but I knew I just had to come to the game of like, okay, Jeff Davis is serious. Like, he's not just like want to get on with the CMO and try to get a job, right?

Right.

Yeah. Whereas I think now that the, the brand has matured and people know of me, and obviously we've launched RevEngine, which is extension of me, I think I ironically can— and I wouldn't say like put out shit, but I can I can really focus on the conversation and not have to have all the extra bells and whistles to try to establish credibility. So that's kind of what I've been grappling with because I, I like the overproduced and like the really slick and modern. That's just me. Um, but it's not always worth— like, what's the, what's the phrase? The juice is not always worth the squeeze, or the— yeah, these, or whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's a struggle.

Yeah. And you know, I think there's a place for that too. I mean, nobody wants to watch the rough cut of Star Wars, you know?

Yeah.

But at the same time, I think where the magic comes is like in the middle of that conversation. Like you just dropped RevEngine and the people that are listening are like, oh shit, what's that?

Join RevEngine.com.

Yeah. Now a word from our sponsor. Yeah, no, no, no sponsorships. This is just—

There are no sponsorships.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah, but please, please go to the new platform. Yeah, join growthengine.com.

I mean, so let's get into it. Like, talk to me. I mean, talk about the story. So let's give a little history about our background. So we both went to business school at Chicago Booth, classmates about a decade ago. And then you were more on, let's just call it go-to-market side. And I was more on product tech side.

Yep.

So, you know, I think we stayed, I think it was interesting puzzle pieces and we've stayed in touch over the years just sort of organically, which is super cool. So like, take me through. So I didn't even know you had this old podcast. Like, take me through like that to like RevEngine. Like, what do you wanna do with it? Like, what's your outcome? What's the North Star for you?

So, so I'll answer that in 2 ways and then I'll tell the whole backstory. So ultimately, at the end of the day, the reason that I started this work is that I was personally frustrated that sales and marketing didn't have a better relationship because in my mind, I knew that when they worked together seamlessly, that the power of that relationship, like, would, like, 10x, as everybody says, like, the growth of the company. And the reason I felt that way is because I started my career in sales.

Yeah.

And I just used to get frustrated because I came from a very top-down, like, marketing sets strategy and sales executes, ivory tower. There's no feedback loop. Like, if it doesn't work, it's really your fault, right? And I just never really understood marketing because the way in which we engage was very like hands-off and like at arm's length. And so ironically, to your point about business school, it is one of the reasons that I was motivated to go back to business school. And, you know, true testament to me being a little bit over the top, instead of just like going to the University of Phoenix, because really all I wanted to do was understand marketing and have the language to articulate what I was what I was, you know, trying to, trying to say. But instead of going to like just University of Phoenix, I go, oh, let's just go to Booth. And then, then no one have a question that I can be a marketer.

Right.

So if anybody wants the reason why I chose Booth, it was very much a, I want to prove to you that I know what I'm talking about. I'm gonna get this degree from one of the toughest business schools to get into just to make a point. Not exactly, but, but the reason I wanted to go through that rigor is I really wanted to understand marketing, marketing strategy, so that when I transitioned to that spot, I could always secretly advocate for salespeople because I just felt like they were 2 totally different worlds. And back then, you really didn't transition from sales to marketing. Like, you stayed in that career path. Getting to the other side— it's gotten better, obviously— was tough. And I will, I will tell people, even coming in with a Booth degree and having the sales success I had, I was still like, well, do you want to be a sales manager? I'm like, no, I want to, I want to transition to marketing. I didn't get this degree in marketing. just to go back to sales. Like, it's great, I did very well, but I, I'm— there is a, there's a, there's a strategy, there's a, there's a journey here, and you're not helping me get there. And it was really tough. Like, I'm telling you, interviews after interviews after interviews just to come in to be a marketing manager in the same industry that I was in. So I wasn't a career switcher, I was just a role switcher within the same industry, healthcare to healthcare. So any long story short, that really is what what the impetus of why I do the work that I do. The long-term vision with RevEngine and why I'm building it is that I— there's not really a central place for revenue leaders, as those head of sales, head of marketing, customer success, CRO, to really sit down and assess the health or the quality of the revenue engine to say like, where are we today? How dysfunctional are we? Why are things not working? And then be able to put together a really thoughtful and strategic plan to transition from where they are to this really highly aligned, high-performing revenue engine. Like, there's different disparate pieces in different places. There's different software platforms that do great, and I love what we're coming out with, and some of them are starting to coalesce and do, you know, more than one thing. But there's not that strategic lens where I can say, okay, I'm a VP of marketing. I come in. Let me assess what's wrong with, you know, this entire revenue system.

Right.

That's in my organization. And then let me think through what needs to be addressed first, like what is doing okay. Like that is really ultimately what we're trying to build with RevEngine.

Yeah, I think it's great. I think obviously everything comes back to growth, especially in the world I'm in, like high growth businesses, VC backed, even PE backed and like startups. And it's interesting because I felt the pull Even more precisely over the last couple of years, like I've traditionally been product management and just the virtue of going product-led growth is getting a lot of airtime on like the VC waves these days. And it's because of, I think, one thing we want that growth, we want that revenue, we want those sales, we want that marketing engine, all of that stuff and the product working together to decrease the customer acquisition cost. Because like just buying ads like doesn't work anymore and like you have to have some kind of human touch before that buy, especially with high-priced items.

Yeah.

I mean, specifically, I was working on products where the average price point, it's not like SaaS or e-com where it's like $30, $100 a month. I mean, we're talking 5, 6 figures that you're buying through a website online, right? Like imagine buying a car or a house in e-com, And that's where things are headed. And especially in B2B e-com, which we talked about like a little while ago, it's coming. So, and so then I think my point is I kept getting pulled into growth and just by the requirement of the market, like I've had to just get really freaking good at it. And so then it's like you've got product sales marketing and like, what's our loop? How does that equation work? What are the different conversion rates? And what are the levels, levers, and how are they changing over time? And so like that, like I almost think that triumvirate for you, like marketing, sales, product in a tech play, right? Like healthcare is a little bit different, right? But like in a tech play, those, that triangle, if that's working well, holy moly, like you will get a straight line up and down of growth.

Yeah.

It will give you— I used to— I started saying it grows so steep it'll give you a nosebleed.

I actually like that. I might steal that from you.

Yeah, use it.

Yeah, but it's interesting because like I've spent a lot of time, obviously, you know, besides running my own consultancy, in healthcare, in tech, and they are very, to your point, very unique industries. You know what I actually am passionate about, and it's not the— you know, I've always been industry agnostic, but recognizing certain certain industries kind of have a very different go-to-market strategy. So, you know, obviously healthcare with, you know, insurance and payers and that sort of thing, which is unique. Insurance itself is unique. Uh, tech, you know, tech is unique as well. But where I don't find a lot of people talking about, and then I always tried to incorporate them in my work, was what I call kind of like legacy industries. So this is industrial products, manufacturing, all of those industries, because, you know, and part of it, it probably is my bias. Like everybody wants to talk about tech and tech is hot and like all these things, but like There are things that tech is focused on, the things that tech can do that like a manufacturer can't do. But those, but those principles or those strategies are definitely applicable. And I would say in many times, because that industry is, you know, just now understanding kind of like, you know, this whole way, new way of doing things can make a significant jump in growth. By just doing simple things because their competitors are just not there, right? I feel like there's stark differences when you get into those kind of industries where you can see a company that says like, we are moving forward and we are gonna like really think outside the box versus somebody that's saying like, we're doing well, we're growing, but like we're not doing all that extra marketing stuff and all that sort of thing. It's a stark difference. Whereas some of these other industries that are forward-thinking, you know, it, you really have to do something special to break out from the pack and, and then you have to continue to do it because everybody catches up pretty quickly.

Yeah, yeah, it's like that digital transformation thing from like legacy business to internet, like starting to access the market size that's bigger than anything else. It reminded me immediately of this site that blew up on Hacker News this week. Somebody posted it, it's called McMaster-Carr and the website is mcmaster.com, M-C-M-A-S-T-E-R.com. I'll throw it in the chat window here.

I am very familiar with the company. I didn't see the The news though, what happened?

Really? Yeah, it's just like this is the greatest usability for e-commerce parts because it, the search and the categorization and the grayscale product images lets the user find, buy, check out and buy in like the smallest amount of time possible. And it increased, it just reduced friction for the buyer and it increased their revenue substantially. So it was almost a lighthouse of usability in an industrial supply space, which was super crazy.

Yeah, but I mean, stuff like that is a perfect example of this is the kind of innovation that you can do in the industrial space, right? Yeah, it's very practical, but the impact to the business is huge.

Yeah, truly. Yeah. And then I had a friend I grew up with in the flavors space who, if you're listening, hey buddy, they just started doing B2B e-com. So after I published that first video, he reached out, he was like, hey man, what's going on? Let's catch up. Like, haven't talked in a long, long time.

Yeah.

And he's now like the president of this large like flavor manufacturing, like international, all of that stuff. And they produce different products. I mean, I can't get into it. But anyways, they were moving into like the e-com space where they would put their products up online and then you would like basically à la carte select what you need and sort of check out. And then you'd have that like video, live video chat with a salesperson. During that checkout process that follows you around to help you select and figure it out, almost like a retail space in cyberspace. And then one of my other buddies that I've worked with for like 10 years spent years building e-commerce for steel, for a steel company. So I just see all of these enterprise businesses like moving on to the internet and moving into this way. So I find it very interesting because it's almost like This motion that you've talked about, which has been like sales is in a silo and marketing is in a silo and product is in a silo. It's like they're getting smashed together where like your buyer comes to a website, they see things, marketing is getting them there, they see things and sales is getting them across that finish line into that buy moment.

Yep.

And it's like you need the product to be there organized well, you need marketing to get like the group there and then you need the one-on-one touch to like get them over the line. And that like football team, basketball team, baseball team mindset, soccer team, getting them working together, like if that's a well-oiled machine, I mean, that's exactly to your point, like RevEngine, it's the engine. So here's my question to you is like, Do you design that stuff upfront or is it like just go or a bit of both?

So stereotypically, like in an established business, right? Like, and I, and I wanna be really clear about my POV and other people can disagree with me. Every company has a revenue engine. There's a way in which you have a system that generates money, right? Right. The, what I'm really talking about when I talk about rev engine is like, how do you actually optimize that and transform that into something that is really organized and you, and is more predictable about its outcomes? And so for me, to your point, is that we have historically all operated in silos. Sales is sales, marketing is marketing, and the modern buyer, and all of it's due to digital transformation. They just have access to so much more information that, you know, and I talk about this in my keynotes and this sort of thing, it's information and quality, but in the reverse. So you think about like when you used to buy cars back in the day, like, you know, we're probably aging ourselves, right?

Yeah.

You turn 16, you get your learner's permit and you go get a used car, right? You don't know anything about used cars. And you might bring your uncle that like says he knows stuff, but he really doesn't. You were beholden at the sales, right? You know this, right?

He doesn't know anything.

He doesn't know anything. He's just talking a bunch of like drinking coffee and talking, talking smack. But, you know, the sales rep really held all the keys to the information because we just didn't have that information back in the day. So enter things like Consumer Reports. All of a sudden, I have all this information and all this data. I'm coming to you asking for something very different than what the old school used car salesmen used to do. And a lot of customers, a lot of companies are stuck in not understanding that they have to shift the way they sell in order to be more relevant to the customer, even though the product's great. You have to shift the way you sell because the modern buyer's expectations have gotten so high, a lot of it due to their B2C experiences. So think Amazon, Zappos, all these great and very easy ways to buy. That has spilled over into B2B. And we assume that buying should be easy. But we have this weird mentality that, that we think that when people come to work, all of a sudden they become robots. It is the exact same people, they want the exact same stuff. So I talked about— actually was in San Francisco a couple weeks ago, at Sales Name Soiree, and I was talking about it, there's actually 2 transformations that have to happen at the same time. That's why when I talk about sales and marketing transformation, it is difficult. And most companies either A, don't want to do it, or B, it just takes them forever to do it, because there's 2 things having to happen at the same time. So you have the functional transformation. So that sales needs to transform. So it's not the old school, always be closing, hammer the phone, call 10,000 leads like that. And if you're still doing it, God bless you, but it just doesn't work, right? And I'm not saying cold calling is dead. I think it's a part of the toolkit, but it ain't the primary part of the toolkit. So that's that. And then marketing, same thing. To your point, you talked about ads. So just spending money on ads and like blowing it out and like doing the same thing and like getting banners, like That has not proven to be successful. So you have to first and foremost make those transformations and convince those leaders in those silos that they have to evolve their approach. Then the second transformation on top of that, because, you know, that was super easy to do, is that you now have to get those silos to work across each of the functions so that they actually build out a system that tracks the buyer all the way through and gives them what they need when they need it at the time they need it and orchestrates this really easy user interaction with the company because the buyer doesn't care if it's sales or marketing. They want the information they want.

Yeah.

If I know nothing else, and sales leaders will know this, the time that sales sellers are getting is at the end of the journey and it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So if you are not connected at the hip with your marketing leader. If you're one of those old school sales leaders that says, well, I don't know nothing about marketing, and marketing, that's their thing, and, and I'm out here selling and my people got to sell, and I don't want them— I've heard this a lot— I don't want them reliant on marketing.

Oh, interesting.

I get the spirit of what that is, right? Like, they don't want sellers to be lazy and not do the work. But you as a sales leader, your, your job is to get your sales team in front of the right companies, the right targets, the right kind of comp, uh, the right kind of contacts and have the right kind of conversations. All of that is being formulated by sales— I'm sorry, by marketing and what they're doing in the marketplace prior to your salespeople even getting on the phone. So those 2 transformations are happening at the same time or need to happen at the same time. And that is why really shifting this, you know, into a really high-performing aligned revenue engine is difficult. There's not just one business transformation, it's 2.

Man, that's crazy. That's really elegant, man. I haven't heard it quite put that way, but It's so right. It's almost like we've reached this precipice at the end of the mobile S-curve and it's like everything is shifting yet again.

Yes.

And thank goodness, well, I'm not gonna say that, but like COVID basically like lit a fire and made it obvious like how important this like transformation is, like just that idea of like we've been talking about it for a decade. Oh man, now I feel it.

Yeah, in a weird way. And I know to your point, you don't wanna say this, it actually forced most companies to leapfrog to probably, I would, you can tell me more because you're a product guy, 10 to 15 years forward as far as like digital capabilities and building out digital.

And, you know, I think just by virtue of working and spending a lot of time with early stage startups, it's, you start from scratch. So there's none of the like existing old house infrastructure that you have to like tear down, rebuild back up, make pretty again at the same time you're running a business. It's, you can start fresh. And so that's also why I know that it's the right path to what you talked about, like these siloed transformations. Each department has to basically like go up a level of sophistication now.

Yeah.

And then The fact that they're all working together in this collaboration piece too is so huge and mission critical because I've found, I mean, I had a guest on the podcast, her name is, oh, you know her, you introduced me, Deb Mashen.

Oh, Deb, I love Deb.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All her work is in my book. Like, I love her work.

Yeah. And it's so true. It's like, it's what, it's basically like write the spec and be right, which is what do we do and make sure we're not spinning our wheels? And then how do we hand off things to each other? Like, what are the touch points? And that's it. If you can figure out how to like get the right instruction set and then work together and chop up those instructions well in a large organization while you're also like pushing the ball down the field, it's so hard. Like no one, I mean, you get on conference calls and people just look like dead every day, like haven't slept in weeks, haven't showered. There's like dishes piled up around their desk and it's like, It's hard. Like, it's, yeah, it's hard. It's hard competing at a very high level and everyone's going hard and it's hard.

And to, in, in, in a large organization, there you are fighting inertia.

Yes.

Many times. Yes. Because really trying to get alignment across different functions that have sometimes competing priorities, competing incentives. Yeah, that's a whole nother pillar of what we've talked about in my work. But doing that is not always accepted, is not always, um, accepted, or well received, is probably the way I should say it. Even though in the long run, here's what the irony of it is, it is going to make everybody's work easier and more effective.

Yeah, and everyone knows it.

Well, I don't think that that's top of mind. What's top of mind is how do I get recognition for what I'm doing and how do I check the box for my function? And if you guys, your work doesn't happen or it doesn't, I don't care. Right. And it depends on the culture of the organization, that sort of thing. But I would say for many, incentives are not always aligned to the behaviors you want people to actually demonstrate. And case in point with marketing, and I talk about this.

Mm-hmm.

a lot. Like, if you look at the traditional marketing team, they act as a cost center. Historically, marketing has always been a cost center. And I was on the— I can't think of his name right now— salesman.org, I think is his website. He has a podcast, actually pretty good podcast. And so he talks mostly like sales leaders and sellers. And when I said that, he was like, wait a second, pause, you gotta unpack this. Let me know what this means. I said, yeah, Let me, let me give you a heads up on how we get down over in marketing. Historically, we don't talk about ROI, and obviously depends on the organization and tech might be a little different, but I'm making broad macro statements. It is, did you spend budget? Did you get leads?

Yeah.

But there's not the sit down with sales leader and say like, look, let's talk about like how this actually translated into, you know, opportunities. Let's talk about like, did this move revenue? And so at the end of the day, we are, as marketers, evaluated like, did you spend your budget? You spent all of it? And if you didn't spend all of it, we're gonna take it next year. So you have less to work with.

Right.

So I'm incentivized to spend, I'm incentivized to get leads. And so when you, as a sales leader, talk to me about like, the qualities of these leads are crap.

Yeah.

I'm kind of looking at you like, I don't really care. Like, I do, but I don't, because I'm being measured on spending my budget and making sure that I get you 10,000 leads a month. And I've done that, check and check. Anything else is extra. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. So people are not necessarily, necessarily acting nefarious and want their counterparts to lose. But leadership has not really set the right incentives for people to exhibit the behaviors that, you know, are collaborative to Deb's point and the work that she talks about.

That's so true, man. Like the 3 things that came to mind were data lakes, omnichannel analytics, and buyer journey.

That is all I do all day.

Yeah, right? Because, and the incentives thing, I mean, when I was back, I did it for like 5 years designing these like comp plans, like base bonus, long-term incentives, like perquisites, benefits. And it's like, you got to figure out what the right answer is. And then you got to reinforce it with incentives because at scale, humans are computer programs. and they're gonna just do that thing like you just said. The computer program said leads, budget, and I totally hear that, like it's a takeaway if I don't spend it. So it's like you're at the end of the month, hurry up, spend the thing, or end of the year, end of the quarter, and it's like it doesn't even matter because it's gonna take away and then that affects my job. So it's like, first of all, I gotta protect my own department and people and like budget and everything, and it's like it just becomes this almost like infighting instead of us being all focused on the outcome we're trying to achieve. And it's very internal focused and like fear focused. And that whole like Goldilocks buyer's journey, what that's like and what that experience is and then like setting up systems behind that to track, measure, optimize conversion through those pieces. And then you get to, well, We've got like 100 different MarCom tools and Segment installed and like none of the systems talk to each other and it's too much data and how do I even cross-reference? And I'm in a pivot table and it's like, screw this. Like I'm just going back to the old days and you gotta build all this custom stuff and then you go talk to Accenture or like a dev shop and you're like millions of dollars, like all this time, like whatever, we're just gonna stay the course. And it's like, so here's my question to you. Like, where do you start to show incremental value in month 1? Like, where do you start with this stuff?

It's a good question. Well, I think more than anything, how I feel about like the litany of things you can do, tech is always last. Like, sorry.

Hey man, these are fighting words. No, I'm just kidding.

Well, in the sense that It's true. It's true. We try to throw tech like, oh, well, we can't do like the one thing that you find that people complaining about. Oh, okay. We'll throw a tech solution at it. But like, let's ask a deeper question of, okay, you can't do it. But why does that matter? And like, how does that connect it to the overall, like us, you know, driving revenue? So I say tech is last because I always push back when people say like, oh, I should buy a CRM or I should buy this. I'm like, Why, why are you buying it? What part of your strategy is lacking that requires you to buy this technology? And how are you— good question that a lot of people, or not enough people, are asking— how are you going to implement that into the workflow of the people that are going to use it?

Mm-hmm.

Because many times it becomes more burdensome than it becomes helpful, or we already have the data internally, we just are not using it in the right way. So I went off a little bit on a tangent there. This wasn't your question. But I think it goes back to— I, and this may be the Boothie inside me, right? It goes back to strategy. Like, you have to have a sound strategy, not tactics, not like, what are we doing? How are we doing it? And reevaluating your go-to-market strategy. And I think a lot of businesses are not really willing to sit down and do that work.

Mm-hmm.

Because sometimes you'll find out, like, perfect example, This is many years ago when I was working with a company and they were trying to really understand how they could optimize their spend. And what we found in having conversations is that their largest vertical actually was not their most profitable vertical.

Interesting.

So it bought in, it brought in the most money, but they actually had another smaller vertical that actually had higher ROI. And I'm like, well, there's your opportunity. Like, you just need to reallocate dollars to this one and we have to figure out the numbers in order to, you know, actually drive growth, right? Like, that's a simple one. Politically, not gonna happen, you know, politically.

Yeah.

Like, this unit is at the top or whatever, like, it's not gonna happen, right? When clearly strategically it makes the most sense. But you go to that leader of that business unit or that function and say, I'm gonna take some of your money and give it to Dan over here, you know, like, that's not gonna go well.

Yeah.

So it's having those conversations that are uncomfortable, but like, if the strategy is right, then we can talk about like, how do we pull this through? And like, what's the technology that's gonna— so that is where I would start.

Yeah, no, it's so true. It's like, figure out what the right answer is first and then figure out how to implement it, which often comes down to people problems and like takeaways. And if you can shift the takeaway into a net plus or net positive, then I think that helps go a long way. But yeah, that's, yeah, it's super interesting. There was something I was gonna say about it as well. I know what it was. So at least in my world, to describe this in like the product management wording, it would be figure out your growth lever. And then invest in that growth lever. So for example, it was, you know, that one industry or that one division you mentioned was like, okay, maybe your North Star metric isn't revenue growth. Your North Star metric is like EBITDA or gross profit growth, right? Because it's like I can spend $100 and get $200 or and get $100, but I get nothing at the end. It's just like spinning your wheels.

Right.

But like if I can spend $100 and get $200, then you want to do that. So Perhaps the big problem is that North Star metric was tied to Division 1 when it should have been tied to Division 2 because the metric was profitable growth, not just revenue growth. It was like, it was EBITDA growth, EBIT growth, or gross profit growth was actually the North Star metric. And then what drives that? And then once you, it's almost like this pyramid where you just like write down the equation like, okay, gross profit growth, this division, what adds up to that? Okay, like here's the number of leads, here's the price per like sale or whatever, here's the conversion rates. Now which one can I move most easily with the least amount of money? And then you just build that pyramid and then you can see like which one is driving that revenue growth. And I think, I mean, that's the secret that I've used in the past is just figure out one, what can we agree on is like the North Star metric. It's like a huge debate. And then, okay, we agree on it. What's the thing that drives it? Okay, now what are the implications of that? And that's where you get into like that people problem, the reorg problem. People like get shifted around and let go and they're like thrashing the org and it's just like chaos. And you forget to mention like, look, like this is what's driving money, which then helps pay our salary.

But that, there's a, There's a— I want to say the right word would be self-awareness, but there's an awareness of the macro environment of the organization that is required in order for a person to understand and identify with that, right? Like, you have to have the ability to say, okay, this is my part of the overall business.

Mm-hmm.

How am I impacting overall revenue? Right? And you may be a smaller part of the business, right? Like, you have to own that and say, like, okay, I'm part of 3% of revenue, whatever.

Right.

And so if our, you know, 70% of revenue business unit or whatever needs something, I may not be happy about it, but like, overall, that is going to make the company more profitable or whatever that is. We all win because we all have jobs, our stock price goes up. But you have to have visibility to that, and you also have to have awareness of that for you to be able to say, okay, this makes sense. Because stereotypically, People only have visibility for what they're working on. And anything that deviates from like, you know, I'm gonna take your money or I'm gonna do something different feels like an attack on them.

Right.

When it really is, you're looking at the entire system and saying, your part of this needs to be recalibrated because we need this over here. It's not about you performing. It's the overall system needs to adjust. And most employees for various reasons, and I'm not necessarily harping on people, just don't have that ability to be able to like see things at that macro level.

Yeah, it's true. And I think part of it is because like they haven't been exposed to it. Like part of it is like pushing that message down or across or up or whatever and having the, I guess, the mental space or the time space to be able to like really help people understand the reasons and the why. And I think part of the other problem too is like just some of this pump and dump hiring and just the fear that's out there that happened with COVID and then again now it's like you hire thousands of people one month and then a month later you fire thousands of people and it's like nobody can trust anything anymore. Like people are leaving and so it's like I don't care. Like I know I'm probably not gonna be here in a year because you're gonna like dump me whenever something just doesn't go so hot because you made a bad decision.

Yep.

Or, you know, I don't know, somebody comes along and taps me on the shoulder and pays me 20% more. Like I'm outie, I've got Yeah.

And I think part of actually building, and I'm not an expert in this per se, but building a truly customer-centric organization, which is, you know, we have 6 pillars and we can get into it later, but we have 6 pillars of the high-performing revenue engine. And I actually started with culture because for long-term sustainability of a revenue engine, you've got to change the culture and it's got to be customer-centric. But in order to do that to your point, you've got to build trust with the organization that you are going to have some sort of transparency with them about what's going on. I've been in a situation as a seller where like all of a sudden the, you know, in Q3, the quote on one of my products went up and people are like, oh, this is, this is BS and I can't believe they do this, they just want to suck more money out of us. But what I realized, because I had a broader view of the organization, is that one of our other products was tanking.

Yeah.

And they had to adjust, right? Like, I'm not necessarily happy about it, like I got to go out here and sell harder, But at least I know, like, like, just not like they're looking at Jeff Davis and they're like, well, you're doing pretty good on this product, so let's just 2x it and see if you can do that. Like, but people would actually feel that way. Like, oh, they're looking at my territory. And I said, well, it's not really what's going on. Like, we got to make up for this product. So yeah, you won't have to do something with this over here to make up for that. But if you don't see that, it feels very personal and it feels like you're being attacked.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like message plus context. And a lot of time we just do message or number. and don't provide the context. And even with context, it's like, we're emotional beings. It's like, wait, like, they sucked at their job. So because I'm good, like, I get— I have to do more now and like dip into my family time or my personal life, or like my stress levels go up. Like, fairness alert, fairness alert.

Yeah.

And, and so it's just like, just like damages. But to the culture thing, like, I think I think people that have been around the block for a long time understand the value of culture and they just, the longer you're in the game of business, the more it becomes like number one, like the most important part.

Totally agree.

But what is the definition of culture? Like it's so fluid and changes because it's interpersonal relationship and the way it feels to show up at work every day.

But I feel like— and again, I don't know the answer to this— but when I think about culture, yeah, I, I think about the acceptable norms of the organization and the way in which people interact with each other. So when I'm thinking about like culture of like joining organization and joining a group, joining a company, whatever that is, those are the 2 things that come to mind. And I'll give you examples. For instance, like when it comes from the, the the standpoint of like cultural norms. Is it okay to show up to meetings 20 minutes late?

Yeah, right.

Is it okay to ghost people when they have— when you have a project or a meeting? Is it okay to not finish projects? Is it okay to not actually have metrics and KPIs around like projects and programs? Like those things to me are like the acceptable norms. And then the interactions with people, you know, things like, is it okay to be nasty to people at meetings and shut them down and tell them to shut up? Like, though, like, and you're laughing, but like, I've seen all these things happen.

Yeah.

And you just observe and like, you just create this like, this mental bank of like, oh, okay, so it happened once. They might just be that person. If I keep seeing it, and like, 2 things happen. If I keep seeing it, you know, it's a pattern. It's like, that's part of the culture. Or you're ignoring it means that it's also acceptable. Like, oh, that's just, that's just how, you know, he is. But there's 5 of him here. And they've been here for a long time. So you have accepted this as part of the culture. So that's how I think about it. Again, I don't know if that's an exhaustive definition. But those are the 2 things that come to mind when I'm looking at like, you say your culture is one thing. But let me evaluate if that's what's actually showing up. Yeah, you know what I mean?

It's, I mean, you're just You're firing off BBs today. Like, you're on fire because honestly, that is 100% the truth. It's this unwritten behavior and it got me thinking about like pack animals in the wild. It's like these behavioral norms that happen that we don't write down. Like people say, what's our culture? We're friendly. Like we pay for parental leave. That's not culture. To your point, it's like, what is acceptable behavior and what is not? And we learn by observing and then it's like what gets beat up and what doesn't get beat up and like what's acceptable and what's not. And I've thought about this a lot actually over a couple of years, like in an interview situation, what's one question I could ask that helps me understand a company's culture? Because you can't ask what's your culture.

Even if you do ask it, the answer is not necessarily gonna be what—

It doesn't give you anything. So the one that I came up with And it's not great, but it touches on your stuff. The one I came up with was, how are decisions made? Walk me through how a decision is made in whatever department or organization I'm talking to. Because often as we talk through that and unpack that, it starts to surface some of the behaviors like who has the authority? What are the power dynamics?

Oh yeah.

Like what's acceptable? What do they look at to make the decision? Like, oh, Frank, you know, he's been here for 20 years and like whatever Frank says goes. Or like everything has to run through the CEO and, you know, there's like a bottleneck problem in the company.

Yeah.

Or it's like completely decentralized, like everybody at the edge makes their own decision. The problem is like mining it back in the home office or in like central databasing or whatever the case is. And so you just start to learn a lot and like that's the sharp wedge into having some of these more behavioral discussions. But it's so hard. I mean, how many times have you talked to somebody And they're like, oh yeah, seemed really amazing in the interview process. And day one, I was like, oh, cuss word. Oh, cuss word. I've been there, done that.

I was like, how did you— how did you dupe me into taking this role? And you clearly left a lot of stuff out.

Yeah, yeah.

I actually had a— and I won't get into the details, and I won't tell anybody who it is, but, uh, I, I actually had that, that conversation and— or that that instance happened to me, like, I literally was there for a week. And I was like, I don't know what I signed up for. This is definitely not what I signed up for.

Oh, man.

Totally not what I signed up for. And to your point, it's, it was just by observing. Yeah, it wasn't that anybody was, you know, treated me wrong or did anything mean to me. It just was observing behaviors that I felt were unacceptable.

Yeah.

Or were dysfunctional, probably. That's probably a better word, dysfunctional. And it was just like, and when you see them multiple times, you're like, okay, this is a cultural norm. This is this. And then you have to make a decision. Am I okay with this?

Right.

Does it affect me, you know, emotionally, spiritually, whatever? Or am I not? And I think, you know, going back to your point again, as you get older and you get more tenure in your career, it does matter. Because you can't focus on the work if you're in a culture that is counter to how you like to operate. It just makes everything exponentially harder to do. Because a lot of times people are, are not happy not because of the work, it's everything surrounded by the work that they can't get through to get to the work.

Yeah. Oh man, that's so true. Just BBs, man. Pew pew. No, like, God, it's so true. It's like, I mean, I find myself in these situations. It's like there's so much that gets in the way. of good work. And, um, it's like I'm doing all this other stuff or administrative stuff, and like I can't do the thing that I'm, quote, best in the world at.

Yeah.

And like everything suffers. I suffer. And, and I think the thing that came to my mind as you were talking about this was like the boundaries that you set. And you have to really, as an individual, spend the time and have the experience to know like, where do I thrive? What am I comfortable with? Like, what does feel good or right or balanced or whatever it is for me and then find a way to like find that fit. Yeah, fit with other people or other organizations because if that fits off, I mean, there's like values alignment, it's just like interaction protocols, right? Like approval processes, like review process, handoff, ops, like the whole thing, like payment timing, you know, just the whole thing.

But I think it just for— and also for me, some people may have found how to do this earlier in life. So, you know, I'm in my early 40s. I would just say I did not figure out what that— what those boundaries were probably into my late 30s, early 40s.

Yeah.

And I had established myself as a marketing professional or revenue, whatever you want to call me. Uh, you know, I, I had a book and I had done all these things, and it took all of that really for me to be able to say This is the, this is the way in which I operate and show up best.

Yeah.

Versus earlier in my career, which we're all taught to do— well, I would say a large number of us are taught to do— is adapt to the situation.

Yes.

And I'm, and I'm not saying— well, actually, that's not the way I want to say it. Adapting is okay. It is— what's a stronger word? Assimilate. That's the— that's what I want to say. We're taught to assimilate to the situation, especially early in your career. You have no credibility. You don't have anything to fall back on. You have no evidence of like your abilities, etc. And for a lot of people, that assimilation really is sucking their productivity and their ability to actually do the work and show up and be great at what they do. And I think as you get older, that turns into adapting to your environment, but also having clear boundaries of like, these are the things that I will deal with and that are acceptable. But if it goes into this territory, Right. I'm out. And I think it's hard to have that when you're younger. I would say this generation, like millennial and whatever the one behind that is, I think that they are, I think they have a better sense of that earlier.

Yes.

Because like, you know, there's a whole nother, we can have that conversation about like credibility and not having to go into business and you can, there's all these other avenues to make money, right? But I think for our generation and boomers and that sort of thing, it's like it takes time to be able to get there, to be like, nope, if I see these things, I'm out. Like, this, this, this is my, this is my no-go zone. And then you can say like, look, I just don't thrive in environments that, you know, exhibit these characteristics. And then you make a choice to either move to another role, move to another group, move to another company, whatever. But that, I think that takes time to figure out what that is, because early in my career, and speaking for myself, You just— I just assumed everything was acceptable.

Yeah.

And that I just had to deal with it.

Yeah, 100%. And, and same, same. I think it takes that time to become aware of it. I remember like for 3 years I was just white-knuckling and gritting teeth through really, really painful operations in a turnaround situation where I was also traveling almost nonstop. Yeah, all over the world. And And you don't realize it when you're in it, like how— and in different situations, you don't realize it until you look back on things and you're just like, man, like that really took a lot out of me. And, and I do agree with the younger generation, like I think they've seen and been exposed to it with their parents, their older siblings like us. We've talked about it, you know.

Yeah.

The internet has exposed so much. Over just the last 10 years that they've paid attention and they're like, that sucks, I don't even want to get on that train in the first place. Which is like why I think everyone— this old survey where it's like, when you grow up, do you want to be an astronaut or a YouTube influencer? And it shifted, and now it's like 0% astronaut, like 90% YouTuber, and then like 10% own your own business.

Yeah.

And, and it's just because like I want to get paid to live the lifestyle I want to live. And of course there's some that are like, I want to build the, you know, the next Microsoft, Alphabet, Amazon, whatever. And it's just, you got to figure out like what makes you happy and then like set up your life for that. But it's not easy.

It ain't easy. But I had— I, I think a lot about— and I don't, I don't know why because I'm not like the CEO of a Fortune 500 company— but I think a lot about like, what does the future of talent look like? Yeah, because it's weird. It's a little strange to me that in the economy that we're in that you have so many roles that are open and cannot be filled, or people are not willing to take the roles. And I'm not talking about like low-level, entry-level jobs. I'm talking about like real, real corporate roles. And I think also a lot about like there being like this massive shift in what is required for like the future of work.

Mm-hmm.

And so I don't know if you saw this, this, this research, uh, and I forgot who published it, but they talked about the job description for CEOs shifting from more finance and quantitative skills to actually interpersonal and people skills, and that being leveraged higher than your ability to run P&L, that sort of thing. And so I was like, what does that say about like the future of work? Because that's a big shift. And then you think about the average, you know, work in the organization. So I, I'm curious to see what 10, 15 years looks like when you have a lot of younger folks opting out of going into traditional kind of corporate roles, you know, creating wealth through real estate and YouTube and social media, that sort of thing. Because we have that, that cohort, and you need like just different skill sets. Everything is kind of transitioning to some sort of digital aptitude, no matter what function you're in. It's just gonna be very interesting. And I don't know the answer and I know, but I just, I'm like, I wanna see how this plays out.

Yeah, I've seen, I mean, I can tell you like the executive management role specifically, like myself and others I've talked to. Yeah, it's, you see the job rec and it doesn't quite capture it because you know exactly what's required in that environment, in that situation, in that company in order to execute against the goals. And maintain it, and you walk away because it's unreasonable. The expectations have become so difficult and unreasonable because the competition is so fierce that it's like, man, I don't know if I can sign up for this. Like, I could, I could— it's going to take a full hard sprint for like 9 months or a year, and I'm gonna burn out. And what am I gonna get at the end of it? Because guess what? My equity isn't gonna vest.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna be there. I'm not gonna like go exercise those options and pay cash and then wait 10 years and you might fail anyways. So for like a lower level cash salary with like maybe a bonus or maybe not performance to kill myself.

Yeah.

When the alternative is I can just go like send some emails or some notes or do my own sort of thing and like have a better lifestyle with the same amount of income. And so like as I've talked to world-class talent because I did this from a product management perspective, I was like, what do you want? Like 100th percentile talent.

Yep.

And it was 3 things. I want to be 100th percentile compensation. I want to be paid Out of the moon. I want to get paid for what I'm worth and what I'm worth is a lot. Number 2, I want to have a huge impact on the world, which is why I go to these like giant corporations and like the big tech sort of thing.

Yeah.

But number 3, and this is where the big problem develops, is I want to work on something I'm passionate about and believe in and I'm jazzed and fascinated by, which is like I jump out of bed and I'm just interested in it and I want to just see it go. And for some reason, large business, quote, corporate America, the amount of like matrix organization structures, approvals, like political stuff, you just get bogged down, the taxes you pay in order to get anything out the door, you get so bogged down that it's that third piece where it falls over. And so this is why people become entrepreneurs and quit and also why I hear a lot of engineers, for example, At big tech and why big tech is having this productivity problem is I spend 5 hours a week working on big tech products and the other time I'm spent working on an agency or my own thing during working hours and no one knows. And this quiet quitting thing is really just, I'm getting all 3 of that triangle, but I can't get it in one place.

Okay.

That's my, that's where I'm at right now from the research that I've done. I haven't seen it written down. It's a hypothesis. It's not 100% validated, but it feels right.

That's interesting because I look at like the quiet quitting thing as, and I'm not looking at it purely from a tech standpoint, but like people reevaluating what is important to them. And I don't know if work-life balance is the right way to talk about it, but I think it's reevaluating your values and people saying, maybe I should value my family more, maybe I should value entrepreneurship more, maybe I should value learning more, and then acting accordingly and not necessarily subscribing to this kind of you know, traditional, like your worth is tied to your title. I think that is, that is dying a very— I don't know if it's a slow death or fast. It's dying. I don't know how fast it's dying, but I just— maybe a slow death, but because I think there's a good contingent of people that, that still attribute their worth to their, to their title. But I think more and more people are just like, yeah, so, but okay, whatever.

Yeah.

Especially if you come from startup world where you know, I've already been a VP, or I've been whatever. And just, you find that the title doesn't really mean anything. Now, when you're in a large matrix organization, it's very different because that signals to the folks around you, to some degree, your worth in the organization, not as far as like worth as an individual, but like how you are valued in the organization, your worth to the system, so to say.

Yeah.

But, you know, when you come from startups and you've done, you've been in small organizations, you realize titles are just Yeah, it's—

I've found the whole title thing, it's like, who do I go to for what is really the answer to the problem. And the title is like functional, like what function are you in, right? Like product growth, sales, marketing, customer success, you know, support, whatever. That's important. So I know who to go to for what sort of problem.

Yeah.

And then it's like leveling a little bit, like Do I go to the person on the front lines? Do I go to like the boss's boss's boss? You know, like, yeah, and there's such title bloat anyways in every organization is like crazy and it doesn't matter. And startups are like, I'm the, I mean, like Chief Metaverse Officer now. I saw this article, it's like getting million-dollar salaries and like CAA is representing these people and it's like you can just come up with a combination of words and then put it under your signature in an email and it's like, I'm Chief Orange Juice Officer today, right? Bringing in the OJ. Like, I think—

but I feel like that only works in tech. Like, that, that doesn't translate to like any other industry. Like, I see some crazy stuff like, you know, Chief, uh, Chief Happiness Officer. I'm assuming that's maybe HR, uh, but like, you can't get away with that with like most organizations outside of tech.

Yeah, no. And the big ones, it doesn't fly.

It does not fly.

Yeah, it's a hierarchical structure and it's, yeah, very rote in terms of how everything— reporting relationships, compensation bands, all that. Yeah, yeah. So, well, cool, man. We're, uh, that was quick. We went an hour.

Wow.

Um, yeah, like, uh, yeah, we're over time. So like, any final words? Like, what, what are you thinking about these days? Like, where you want to head? What's your Like RevEngine is the next big thing and like getting that podcast going is like what's next for you?

Yeah. So I'm continuing on this road of, you know, aligning sales and marketing and developing a way for revenue leaders to really assess the health or the quality of that. And so RevEngine is my passion project and what I've been working on. So right now the podcast is the immediate focus and just making sure that, you know, and I think one of the things that that I got feedback on, and I know we're over, but, um, the, the Alignment Podcast was you are able to talk across different functions about the same subject matter. And it's nice because I get to hear it from a VP of marketing, uh, uh, VP of sales, a CEO. And I'm like, that is the intent. Like, I think that is why we're doing something different, is that I have a very niche topic that we focus on. It is you know, the entryway to building out a really high-performing revenue engine is sales and marketing alignment. And I wanna help people get there, right? And so I think the only way to get there is to be able to develop something where we can have a holistic view of what it takes. And I think so many times we get focused on, this is a marketing podcast, this is a sales podcast, it's a da-da-da podcast. And I'm just like, those are great and they're needed. They really truly are. But that's not what this is. This is one thing of like, there is a problem between these 2 functions.

Yeah.

And I look like they're the 2 biggest kids on the playground because there's other functions we need to align with customer success and finance and all sorts of stuff. I feel like if you get the 2 big bullies, sales and marketing, to get along and really become friends, everything else becomes infinitely easier. So I say all that to say is that is why we're building out RevEngine. Join revengine.com. The podcast will be next. And then, you know, depending on— I really just wanna listen. So depending on what leaders want, if that's masterminds, if that's events, I'm gonna let, you know, and this is not exactly product-led growth, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, maybe it's called insights-led growth. I'm gonna let those conversations and the feedback I get determine what we develop next because ultimately I'm serving revenue leaders and helping them do it differently and do it better.

So yeah. That's just good customer development. That's just good product management is listening, listen to your customers and then do what they want.

And ironically, it makes your job a lot easier. Yeah, because you're like, we built this because you asked us to, not like we built this because we felt like you needed it.

Yeah.

So that's what I'm working on, besides just, you know, just enjoying life. And I think if nothing— I think if COVID— not to go back to make it a COVID thing, but I think if COVID has taught me nothing else, it's about like really just finding things you're passionate about, enjoying life, and just putting things in perspective and I've done a lot of work around meditation and manifestation and law of attraction and all those things that I think I probably started before COVID but I think they were accelerated during. And I think it has created such a sense of calm that I think that we all need, especially right now with everything that's going on. It is something people really need to be investing time in. So that's my plug for like, you can call it mental health or whatever, um, because I think it's only gonna get worse, to be honest with you.

Yeah, Debbie Downer, but put, put your own oxygen mask on first and then, and then get to work once you can breathe. Yeah.

Hashtag facts.

Love it. Yeah, let's end on that one. That's a good, that's a good note, man.

Yeah.

Well, super cool, dude. Like, uh, I'm super glad you're doing this stuff and I'm excited to see it come off and count me in as a subscriber to the pod. So yeah, shoot it over once you've got it. And definitely will. Yeah, we'll make it happen. It's gonna happen. I mean, it's just too big a problem. You know, it's an inevitability. So you— it may as well be you.

Hey, it's gonna happen. I spoke, I spoke it out to the universe. So it's happening whether I wanted to or not. It's happening.

So there you go. It's out there.

Yeah, we're excited about it.

So I love it, man.

I appreciate the support.

Love it, Jeff. Cool. And, uh, let's catch up on, uh, Christmas again if we don't talk before then, like we did last year. That was fun.

Yeah, we'll, we'll do a better job of staying, staying connected, but I'm glad this week you use this excuse to actually connect and catch up.

Yeah, that's the point. We just got to put time on the calendar. Otherwise life moves too fast.

I agree with you.

All right, my friend.

All right, brother.

Have a great weekend and, uh, love your partner, your family, all of that. And, um, Yeah, thank you. Kicking butt.

All right, thank you, sir. We'll stay connected.

Alrighty, take care.

All right, bye.