Collaboration with Deb Mashek, PhD

Hey, Sean.

Hello. How are you? How have you been? Uh, been good.

How have you been? Oh, I'm, uh, running to the airport right after this. Like, I— can you see my little binder clip?

I can see it with the googly eyes.

Yeah, I'm gonna put this in front of me. But, um, yeah, so it just feels like a lot of travel lately, which is exciting. And this trip I get to take with my son, and he hasn't traveled since before COVID so he's super jazzed. But I'm feeling like really anxious today for some reason, and I think it's because of the travel, even though it's not that unusual.

Right. Yeah, you're just probably worried a little bit about— I mean, it's just anxiety. It's like, what, what crazy things can happen while you travel? I mean, we, uh, I'm in Seattle this week and was—

I was wondering.

Yeah, I was in Disney a couple weeks ago, so it was like home for 2 days and been gone for a month and We brought our service animal with us and day 1, no, day 2, we got in Sunday night and Monday had to take him into the ER because, yeah, has like some liver issues or something. So spent like all day in the ER with him. Luckily he's okay. He's got some medicine and stuff and resting, but it's like, damn, just crazy stuff. You know, you just can't, that's life though. You just can't plan for it.

Yeah.

How old's your son now? Isn't he like—

He is going to be 13 in 3 months.

I was going to say 12.

So technically, that's correct.

Yeah. So somewhere you told me, and it stuck in my subconscious. So that's good. My memory hasn't failed me yet, I guess.

How are you guys? I think last time we talked, you guys had just gotten into your new place.

No, we've been, we've been in our place for 2 years, pretty much like 4th of July 2020.

Okay, so you must have been like doing a renovation or something.

Oh yeah, yeah, we were doing the full renovation for like 2 years during COVID which I don't recommend. It's, uh, you know, supply chain prices, workers, COVID masks.

Yeah, layered on to all the together time of COVID plus As a renovation.

Yeah. And then running a couple startups on the side. This is like a 3rd startup. And yeah, basically got to May this year and I was like, I'm done. Like, I'm just done with everything. We're going to Disney. That's it.

I was gonna say, say more. Like, how are you serious? Done? Or was it just—

No, unfortunately not. We've still got like, you know, the master bath and exterior paint, but like a lot of the big stuff Is done. So that's cool. Yeah, but it's one step at a time, you know, like rip it open, find new stuff. I mean, we've essentially replaced everything in the house. So like down to the outlets, like the actual physical things that you plug cords into, not just the faceplates. There's like, you don't even think about it until you're going in manually because I was doing this. And it's, I think I counted like 50 or 60 different outlets and switches, and you can do maybe 2 or 3 an hour if you're really going fast. Because, you know, we painted everything white and it was like a cream or an almond before. So it's like, it looks, it looks weird. You can't just leave it. So it's like, oh man, like everything, literally everything in the house except for the wiring and some of the 2x4s.

So I don't have a television. So when I travel, I love turning on the TV and watching HGTV.

Oh, yeah.

And I was at a Little League tournament last weekend, and there was a show on. I'm not going to remember the name, but it was basically where people had tried their own renovations, screwed it up, and then they bring in the show host who's a contractor who helps, like, you know, I'll fix it for you. And that would totally be me. It's best. I mean, it's good. I'm a renter.

Oh, that's where we were. I mean, we did the same thing. We watched HGTV and it's like, oh, this is easy. We could do a full renovation in 30 minutes. Like, it's totally fine. That's what they make you think. And well, reality isn't so close. But yeah. So anyways, that's my fun stuff. What's new in your world?

Yeah.

I saw you had MIT Review got an article in there about some of your research and your work. That's pretty That's freaking cool.

Yeah, that was really cool. And it was, um, a fun, like an oddly fun process too, because Deborah Milstein is, was the editor on it and she herself is incredibly collaborative. And so just the whole submission and workshopping the article was fun. And then it got, um, I think it was in June that it went up on the print site, or sorry, the electronic site. And then I get this email saying, hey, your article was selected for our print edition, which I mean, what a, what a nice pat on the back of like, hey, this stuff actually matters and we want to share it with others. So I'm super jazzed about that. Yeah.

That's amazing. I mean, yeah, it's every single organization with an employee count greater than 1 has to collaborate. I mean, in relationships, you have to collaborate in the real world, like even ordering a coffee, you know, it's communication and collaboration and expectation. So It's, I think it's like a huge deal that people just don't spend enough time with. And I just see so many organizations. I mean, even big tech organizations don't, even product teams don't know what they're building, don't know the product they're building. Like, and I just can't help but think of you and your work. And I'm just like, this is, I mean, it's just, it's gigantic. Like the market size for what you're doing is like everything. It's just—

Now we need to figure out how to make sure people know that I exist. But so to your point though, like, I think there's this distinction between product and the people. So being able to product manage or project manage the ins and the outs and the contingencies and that this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, and the workflows, like, that's about managing the product, and that's really important. But if we— I don't know, my I feel like if we try to do that without also paying attention to the people side, i.e., the relationships, 2 things are going to happen. You're going to end up either in these really contentious, like, growly sort of relationships, or you're going to under-leverage what could have been possible had that relationship actually been invested in as well. So I have this image in my head of it's like trying to cook without salt. Like, if you want those really amazing pops, You gotta have both ingredients present.

Yeah, it makes, makes a ton of sense. I mean, what have you found is like all the work that you've done, the people you've spoken to, what do you think is like the biggest problem that they— is it an outcome thing? Like we're moving slow, like we just can't get anything done, there's too much tension. I mean, what do you see as like the catalyst Where it's like, okay, you can start unpacking all the stuff that's getting in the way and to find the nugget. Is there one thing or is it just a whole bunch of things?

Yeah. So what, what's coming up for me as you're asking that is I think it depends on if we're talking about an established team or a new team. So on a new team, I think one of the problems is racing right into the the work work and skipping over some of that relationship development stuff. And it, you know, it doesn't mean like, hey, we gotta spend 6 months getting to know each other. But even, you know, at the top of the meeting, like, here, you and I haven't talked forever, right? Like, it's been a while. And I remember what we talked about. You remember what we talked about. And we just spent some time revisiting those things. And that's, that's like really basic relationship building stuff. And the number of— I mean, I'm sure you've seen it too, like the number of people who skip right over that. or who you sit down in a meeting, a Zoom meeting, for instance, and everyone's still paying invoices or sending off that one last email or checking their cell phone when really there's a moment here that we could be having and establishing the relationship, which creates this bank of trust to pull on when the project starts to go off the rails, when the timelines start to slip and things like that. And so I think skipping over that relationship building is one of the problems. with new teams. And then with established teams, I think one of the problems is getting into what Leanne Davey talks about as conflict debt, where kind of like a credit card, like if you don't pay off the debt, it just builds up and you're going to end up really paying for it in the future. Likewise, she likens that to conflict, where if we don't deal with conflict when it's happening, then it's just going to bite us in the butt later on and it's going to compound the impact of it. And so You know, not thinking, um, like when struggles start to happen in the relationships, and they always do. I mean, I study this stuff and the number of collaborations I'm still like frustrated, but, you know, figuring out a way to actually clear that, um, and talk about it and do the repair so that we have kind of a clean slate then to, to, for the next project or for this big project to continue. I mean, some of the stuff you're working on it. And it takes years, right, to actually come to fruition. But I'm curious, like, what did you know on the other side, actually boots on the ground, what are you noticing?

Yeah, it's, I mean, specific for me, I'm in it. I don't know, there's like the enterprise market, there's like the S&P market or SMB, you've got like the Fortune 10 market, you've got like startups. And so for me specifically, I've mostly been in, I'll just call it high growth startups. And that can range from like a couple people to 20, 50, even to like a couple thousand, right? If you're a big public company, but it's the same sort of thing, which is speed is everything in the face of quality, relationships doesn't matter. Like you see this in the market with the pump and dump hiring, like, oh, the market's hot, we're gonna hire 1,000 people and then, oh, like the market tanked in 2 months. All right, we're gonna fire 2,000 people, which I hate. Like it just, It tells me like you don't have control of your business and it's just bad management. But to your point, there's almost no time spent or thought spent in any of the organizations I've been in on relationship. I mean, there'll be some stuff sometimes at the bigger companies where it's like, all right, we'll schedule 30 minutes and then it's like a team workshop and we'll play a game over Zoom. And it's like, man, this is just like another meeting and it just feels like a waste of time when you've got engineers on a phone call all day and they're not even writing code. And it just becomes like these never-ending Zoom meetings. So it's like finding a way to do this is very important. I agree with you. And maybe what you said is like the secret to the whole thing. The key unlock is like, you know, the whole, it's just like the first 5 to 10 minutes of any meeting, like you just catch up with one another. But the other half of what you said, which was conflict resolution in the moment, real time in situ, I think that's very hard for people. I mean, I've struggled with that over the years and you just sort of let it build and you just like let stuff go because you're like, yeah, whatever, it's not that big of a deal. But that debt, that conflict debt you've talked about, I mean, that's just even in interpersonal relationships, it can come up too. So it's super valuable, not just in the workplace, but Yeah, you almost have to nip it in the bud as soon as it comes up. Otherwise, it's really bad. Like, you gotta schedule that next call, you gotta send the message and like, hey, we need to talk about this thing. And I, this is a weird, I'm gonna take this to a weird place for a second because this is what it reminded me of.

I love weird places. Let's go.

Yeah, it's like, I don't know where I saw this. It's some weird social media post on like Pinterest or, you know, one of these like principle things you see on the internet. And it was like kings and queens turn towards conflict and other people turn away. And it's like, if you want to be a leader, if you want to be successful, you just have to deal with that uncomfortableness and become comfortable in uncomfortableness and turn towards the problem, turn towards the conflict, turn towards the issues or whatever in good or bad situations, and then just contend with it in the moment because Yeah, I think that credit card debt analogy is really, is really spot on.

There's, um, yeah, I was just gonna say that I want to pick up on something you touched on, which is that it's true in other social relationships too. Here's my big bugaboo. Like, we are social creatures, and I think there's this assumption that we're therefore good at doing social relationships. But think about like your life, your friends' lives. How many of us were ever told how to be a good friend, how to be a good spouse, how to be a good parent. Like, most of it is learning on the fly, and we just kind of assume you either are good at it or you're bad at it. You sink or you swim. That same mythology carries forward into the workplace where, you know, like, we're not trained how to be collaborators. Like, it's just assumed you can either do it or you can't do it.

Yeah.

And the, you know, the same poor habits of heart and mind that are existing in our families and in our neighborhoods and whatnot are present in our workplace. And so then we have people who are leading projects and managing projects who they haven't learned this stuff either. So there's really nobody kind of saying like, look, there's a better way to do it. There are better things and worse things we can do to get our ship moving in a productive direction. And so everyone's kind of like, relationships hard, conflict hard, hide from it. And then, you know, these rapidly scaling companies that you're talking about, I was talking to one founder and he used this beautiful analogy of it's like trying to duct tape together a cardboard car as it's hurling down the freeway. There's no time to be like learning about someone's interest and their hopes and fears and dreams or like, hey, you looked a little, you know, or that, that barb someone threw at you at the meeting. How are you feeling? That landed kind of weird with me. You wanna talk about it? Like, who's got time for those conversations when there's a deadline and You need to, you know, demonstrate this KPI and this one right away. And so it's like we, I think, shoot ourselves in the foot by kind of sweeping that stuff under the rug, both because we're uncomfortable with it and it feels like there's no time for it.

Yeah, I, this reminded me of, I'm thinking of times in my career where there hasn't been any of these issues. And one of them was this company we had called Adam and Luna and we made StoryApp and the stories media format. And it was a core group of us and we had met in New York and we ended up connecting just on almost like philosophy, you know, and like the things that we liked about the world, the things we didn't like, why things work a certain way. Like one of the things we went to Central Park and we sat there and we looked around and we're like, you have every Man, woman, child, culture, sex, you know, I mean, it's literally the tapestry, animals, dogs, horses, right? And like, everyone's getting along. There's no conflict, everyone's happy. It's like stroll, it's calm. And you're like, what is it about that thing that engenders this? And I think there's like a deep care that was there, and this was over a decade ago, and we're still like very close friends. We did— we called them family reunions, and we would get together at a place like every year, this place in Juniors called Brooklyn— called— or no, this place in Brooklyn called Juniors.

I know what you meant.

Yeah. And, and we still— I mean, we still have a text thread, the group thread that's been going forever, and we're still very close and support each other. And it's just like I don't know. It's like this really, like these puzzle pieces, they just sort of fit together and then it's like, okay, these are my people. And I think in those situations, I almost found there was no conflict, none in 10 years, which is insane.

Were there differences of opinion?

Yes.

Okay. So I think that's an important distinction or important point too, is like, that probably actually is conflict because you're pulling the, you know, pulling the rope, but, you know, trying to figure out the optimal placement.

Yeah.

But it wasn't experienced as anxiety-laden, which I think a lot of people assume conflict has to be. I was curious though, in that relationship, do you remember that first moment where you felt kind of that, that comfort, um, with the other person, like, where— or the other people— where maybe you said something that you weren't sure if it was okay to say here, or, you know, you shared a fail or something like kind of what, what was going on there?

Oh man, there's 2 specific instances and we still laugh about this. A couple of them actually. The first one was with a gentleman named Trag, Tragnark. Trag is his, his, his Zord communicator name. He's like a creative, like one of the most creative people I've ever met in the world. Anyways, I first met him, I was in a coworking space in New York. I slid open one of these like doors, like these barn doors and looked in. He was sitting at his computer and he looked up at me and he just had this like goofy grin on his face with his glasses and like his hat and he's like, hey man, or something crazy. And it was just like this, like I'm a ridiculous goofball anyways. So it was like instant connection and then we just started going off on these like crazy tangents like for years. like to the bowels of the internet, right? So it was like in situ connection. The other one, Jared, who's a storyteller, he makes like animated movies, he's a story artist. And the one with him and I is we met at a, I think it was just like a little happy hour or something at the end of the day in New York. And it was Trag's friend and I met him and I was like, I think for some reason I grabbed him by the shoulders and I was like, Jared, Are you ready to change the world, man? And it just like, I don't even know why I said this, but it just like hit him and he just giggled and laughed and it was funny. And then the other one, his name's Chris, his nickname's Chin. And we were on a platform. I mean, this is after we had met for a while, but the reason we got together is he was just very consistent. Like he just wanted to be involved. And we were on a subway platform in New York. And it was like, Chin, what do you want? Like, tell us, what is the one thing you want out of life? Like, figure that out and then you're golden. And he figured it out years later. But yeah, it's weird that I still remember these. It's almost like these meet-cutes, you know?

Yeah, I was gonna say, and what the through line I see, at least in the first 2 and possibly the 3rd one too, is this vulnerability plus authenticity part where like he looks up at you That is, or he looks up at you and he's goofy as opposed to like, yes, I, you know, I'm not available right now. So that openness, he was being open. You guys are both being silly and goofy and laughing, which, you know, for some people that's really hard to do in a workplace setting. But that, that realness is part of what we can, because we're humans. Like, we're, we're in the workplace. Yes. And we're still human social creatures. Like all that, all the stuff that makes sense, you know, out on, on the weekend. out in the neighborhood or at the Little League plays out here too.

That's interesting. What about you? Do you have stories like this, ones that were like good or, or bad?

You know, I dedicated the book to 3 of my— I called them my— I was like, you're the clapper greatest. And Jo, who I worked with when I was a professor out at the Claremont Colleges in California, and she and I launched this 5-college collaboration initiative to try to figure out how to get the colleges to better leverage these incredible resources that are, you know, independently operated on the 5-collar, owned and operated. And so there's all this potential literally in a square mile of property. And our job was to figure out how can we get people to know about each other, to care about each other's needs and interests, and then to come together in a way that you can actually amplify the you know, do together that which cannot be done alone. Yeah.

And then, um, it's like an education internet.

It was so, it was so cool. And she was a softball coach, so she was thinking— her mindset the whole time was thinking about what works with her players to, to create team dynamics. And plus, we were both just, you know, something I really value is, um, the responsiveness and the— we know what our tasks are and we get it done. And there's like really high accountability because like I mentioned at the top, I get anxious when I'm not sure everything's going to go okay. And so to have that steady partner who's like, I got it, and you know she actually has it. Every single time she says she'll get it done, she gets it done. That is just so— for somebody who's anxious like me, that's so helpful to reassure me. And then Michael, who was an external consultant on that project, who he's the one who I would sit down and have calls with him every week and say, like, oh, man, how do I get all of these people to start pulling in the right direction? And he had been working in library collaboration for a lot of years and helped me see, like, oh, no, there are patterns to this. And it was so encouraging of, Deb, you actually, from your background, you know a lot about this. Like, what do you know from the psychology of close relationships that might be relevant here for collaboration? And so he was just really— like kind of that he believed in me sort of thing. That sounds so cheesy, but it means a lot. And then the third one that comes to mind right away is Manal. And so she was my— when I was executive director at Heterodox Academy, she was my director of operations and the most amazing spirit. Like, if, um, you know, there'd be some twisty problem where it's like, we want to get to the top of that mountain peak over there, and she'd get so excited.

Okay.

How can we make this happen? How might we do it? And so just that, you know, never throwing up barriers. Yeah, always being realistic and always just like this big anything's possible if you organize the right, you know, get the right people on board, get the right tools in place, and just so enthusiastic. And like every time we would sit down, you know, the whiteboard would get covered, the sticky notes would be all over the place, and we both had the best time. It probably also helped that sometimes this would happen You know, like over a margarita, like we'd run down to the, you know, we were also in Manhattan. So we would leave the coworking space, go get a happy hour and then, you know, come back and start planning the world. But just that energy was so fun to be in.

That's super interesting. Like for both of us, it's like the human spirit. It's like a connection on the human spirit level and it's like this positive energy of I don't know, just like this creation energy almost, where it's like you just jazz and it one sort of amplifies the other and it just like keeps you going, you know? Because I think I found that's the thing is this concept of duration. Like one way to win is you just last longer than everybody else and you just keep going when everybody else falls away because, you know, maybe you're more passionate, like you're more into it. Like you have these, these teams or these communities, or it's almost even a stronger word. It's almost like this, like core deep human love for someone else. And you have this spirit of creation together that just keeps, you just keep going and it doesn't feel like work. It doesn't feel like, yeah, it's weird, right? It's like, right.

And I, part of that for me, and I'd be curious if you experience it similarly, is almost this dissolution of self where it becomes— it's not me and the other person doing this thing. It really is this notion of we are doing it and we are working together, even though I clearly have my own selfhood and my own roles and responsibilities in it. But there's not like this, I need the credit for this, or we sink or swim as a team. I'm not worried about tracking whose inputs or who did this, who gets the outputs. Like, it's just, no, we're in this. And there's something, yeah, very self-expansion, self-expanding and generative and focusing on the possible. Though, you know, I know other people are also very focused on, you know, the practical, and I think that's very valuable as well. So I don't mean to dismiss that, but energetically, that's what I'm feeling in those moments too.

Yeah. And I also heard it's the process, like we enjoy the process. It's almost like you get a double benefit. It's like this, just this portion of creation and working together is like a win. This feels like a win in and of itself. And then if the outcome is successful, then like you win twice. And I think maybe part of it too that gets in the way of this collaboration thing, I mean, you know more than I do. I'm just sort of playing around the edges, but It's this idea like, oh, I work on things I hate to make money I need to spend on things I don't want kind of thing. So like, if you are showing up and you just don't wanna be there and you're just angry 'cause you don't like what you're doing or you're whatever, like it makes it very, very difficult to enjoy that process. And I think the collaboration becomes harder. And then I think burnout too. You know, you can love what you do, but if you do too much of it, like you can just straight up flame out and your attitude and your emotions don't work well either. Yeah.

And, you know, this idea of like we need the positive reinforcement. I mean, because some of these journeys that it takes to get to the end of the product or to get to the release or whatever, it's like, okay, yeah, it takes forever. Like if you, if the, if that's the dopamine hit you're gonna rely on for sustenance, it's not coming anytime soon, you know. And so it's like, Finding enjoyment in that really good, you know, honestly, like the really good meeting where cool ideas came up or that really good conversation or something and like letting that be a reward that sustains the journey, I think is super important.

Yeah, it's so true. I, uh, no, go ahead.

Oh, sorry. I was just thinking again about in all of our project management softwares and, you know, like we've got all these tools to, to help keep projects straight and we have all these different kinds of processes. So whether it's You know, we're using Agile, we're using Waterfall, whatever. So like, you've got processes and tools down, but where in our— like, if I'm sitting down to do a great big project plan, where am I putting the people? So we've got the people, the tools, and the processes. Like, are we investing in all of those for the health of this, this thing that we say is so important we're gonna hire the thousands of people to make it happen?

It's so true. It's like companies don't exist without people, and yet it's like the last thing on the list. It's just assumed we're all machines. Yeah, you know, it's like this gigantic assumption that we all just agreed and accepted and like signed the legal document. And it's like, well, no, like this feels bad.

Like— The whole language of human resources, it's like, oh yes, this resource we can mine. And yeah, when I, um, You mentioned the MIT Sloan article, and one of the data points from the study I conducted for the book was asking people, like, you know, how much professional development have you had in how to collaborate well? And it was something like 30% said none, and an additional bit said 7%, which is like watching a TikTok— or 7% said a few minutes, which is like watching a TikTok video.

Yeah.

You know? Yeah.

And then you go to school for years to learn hard skills, and then you take professional exams to be a CPA or an actuary or a lawyer or an accountant or whatever. And it's like, hey, do you know how to work with other people? And it's like, eh, whatever. It's just assumed. It's just a gigantic assumption across 8 billion people. Like, yeah, we'll figure it out. Whatever.

Yeah. I was talking to a business school professor who said, Yeah, you know, we assume people coming into our programs know how to work well together, and so we assign— they assign group work like crazy. Like somebody estimated it's upwards of 50% of the work in an MBA program is group-based, yet very few of the schools offer any explicit expectation setting around what that should look like. So, you know, a group is assigned a case study and They do the divide and conquer strategy, which is exactly what you don't want to happen, where it's like, oh, you go do this part, you go do this part. And then they get together the night before and try to cobble together something that looks like a coherent presentation, which doesn't meet the needs of the audience, i.e., the client, nor does it meet— it's not satisfying. You don't get that, that relational pop we were just talking about. So it's like how we're structuring. And this happened, you know, when, when my kiddo was in 3rd grade, he came home. Like, so pissed off about group work. He's like, this sucks because one girl took charge and was going off like she was gonna do the, like, my way or the highway BS. These other kids started to form their own group, but then one kid decided he wasn't gonna do anything. So they had free rider stuff in 3rd grade. So like, starting really young, it's like we just say, oh, group work good. And don't actually— and they didn't get any. training in 3rd grade and then it follows us through all the way to MBAs, I guess.

Yeah, it's so crazy. Yeah. I mean, that is the exact experience I had as well. I mean, you've got the one person who like mantles the leader, a couple of people who are like doing some work, like, yeah, whatever, I'm not gonna fight you on this. And then one person who's like, I'm not doing anything. And then, yeah, like you just come together. So it's, it seems to be hardwired into us. Where, yeah, and it doesn't, it doesn't work so well.

Yeah, and I don't think it is hardwired. This is the— or that I don't think— I mean, there's the individualism thing that's very culturally reinforced and, you know, our North American space. But also, like, if you think like way, way, way back, the groups had to work together to hunt, for example. Like, that was a coordinated activity to raise, you know, kids in the hunter-gatherer societies and You know, even like more modern history, it's like the barns didn't raise themselves, you know, like we were working together in groups.

The pyramids. Yeah.

Exactly. It's like there are examples of incredible feats of human collaboration out there. Um, and that there still are too. I mean, there's still amazing stories, but, um, it's hard in our day-to-day life to figure out how to do it well.

Yeah, that's kind of interesting because Is it maybe like the degree of how much something matters? Like the 3rd grade group project, it's like, whatever, another one of these. The MBA thing, it's kind of like, okay, I get it, another one of these. Like, it's—

Yeah.

You almost don't learn much. But then, like, raising a ship from scratch is super important because if we don't, we can't catch the fish and we all starve. So we have a little bit more ownership over it. Like, it matters more.

Yeah, I like that.

The—

I'm thinking through it. The other side of it though is I've seen people where if it really, really matters to them, they grab onto control and they can't let it go because they're so worried other people are going to fail them. Um, so, so I'm sure there, you know, are the personality variables in there too.

Yeah. Oh man. And then we're into Enneagrams and personality assessments. And yeah, it's, it's not easy. And then the learning styles too— visual, written, oral— like the number of dimensions to put a group together. And then personality, experience, our own mental health that we bring to the, to the table, which is a huge deal people don't think about. I think it's a lot of variables to contend with.

I think for collaboration, one of the most important individual differences is attachment orientation. So this comes out of the— it actually originated in the infant literature, where, you know, if there's some kids who they go to the scary playground, and there's this really steep slide and the big swings and whatnot, their instinct is to grab onto the parent's leg and not let go, which means they're not exploring their world.

Right.

Because that to be activated is so uncomfortable. So they stay really close and safe. And then there are other kids who they're like, woohoo, big swings, and they go and like, they're not— they're like being perhaps overly risk-taking and putting, you know, they're not getting activated in a way that perhaps would keep them safer, even though they get to go explore. And then there are other kids who go out, you know, try that, try the hard swing, fall off, you know, cry a little, come back to the parent, get reassured. And the parent's like, Oh, yeah, you know, that was a bit— you took a big challenge. That was great. Dust you off. And now get back out there and go explore. And those attachment orientations that we develop in childhood carry with us into our adult romantic relationships was like the next step for this research. And so, you know, there, it has a lot to do with whether or not I believe I'm lovable and worthy of care and responsiveness from somebody else. But also, And whether or not I believe that others can be trusted to love me and to respond to my needs in a timely, appropriate sort of way. That is so entrenched in who we are as individuals. And then, of course, I don't mean to equate workplace relationships with romantic relationships, but that is like we have these prototypes in our head about how relationships work. And of course, we carry that into the workplace. So if I'm someone who believes I can trust others to do their stuff, as— or if I believe that everybody else is untrustworthy, that I'm not worthy of having my needs responded to, like, of course, that sets up how we interact with other people in the workplace and beyond. So I think of all those individual difference variables, that's the one that I'm putting my money on is the big nut to crack in terms of helping teams collaborate better. Sorry, I just realized I went into professor mode. Oops.

No. So basically what you're saying is, yeah, because that's the thing. It's like, what's the answer to this whole thing? Because it's so complex and so personal. It's like personalized collaboration for the individual because it's an input-output. So it's like how I see the world versus how then I communicate and interact and how that is then received by the other person. And it's like, we have no— I mean, I hate to even say this, but I'm just gonna do it. Like, this AR thing above all of our heads, like, like, I have a real anxiety about love me, and so I need that. Or like, I have trust issues, right? Like a Drake song or something. And it's like, okay, I see where your anxieties are. I'm gonna like overstep in this area to make sure you feel comfortable. And like, and then everything's fine. Like, we're all gonna— it's all good. Like, everything's good. Like, everything's okay. The world's gonna be fine. We're gonna wake up. It's gonna keep spinning. But yeah, it's like, it seems so complex and such a big nut to crack, especially in a big organization, that I feel like people just, they give up and they throw their hands up. It's like, I mean, I'm even looking at this and I'm a relatively intelligent dude and I'm just like, I don't even know where to start.

Yeah, like what—

I mean, does your book go into this? Like how— like what— where do we start? Where— what's step one here?

Yeah, can I say also adding to the complexities you just mentioned are these issues of individuals collaborate with individuals, but then departments are collaborating with other departments and divisions with divisions and companies with companies. So like what makes sense on one level doesn't necessarily scale up to these other entities. And then it's like But still, if even if you're talking about an institution with an institution, there's still likely some people involved who are trying to collaborate with each other. And so like, it's, it's messy. But to your question of where do you start? I, in the book I put out, and you were actually one of the first people who I got to workshop this with, the, the Maastricht Matrix idea.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, the base of it is that there are these 2 dimensions we need to be worrying about first. One is interdependence, or how, how we create situations where my outcomes depend on your actions and vice versa, and whether or not that's appropriate. That's one dimension. The second dimension, which I think is the place to start, is on relationship quality. And so in the book, I go through, you know, here are 9 things we know are empirically supported strategies for increasing relationship quality.

Mm-hmm.

And some of them are incredibly simple, like what we were talking about, the whole, you know, spend a couple minutes at the top of the meeting getting to know each other. And it has to do with self-disclosure, that we like people who we actually know. And so one of the obligations I think we all have is to actually talk about ourselves. And, you know, one challenge there is you have people who only like to talk about themselves and don't like to hear anything about other people. That's not what I mean, but I mean, like—

Yeah.

Take the risk of sharing something real. If someone says, how are you? And you can answer that in less than 30 seconds, I think you should try harder, quite frankly. It's like, give people a little bit more to work with to get to know you. And there are other things in there, like make your expectations clear. So people are not mind readers. And I had this pop up in a collaboration with a client just this week where I had said, okay, I'll send you the calendar invite for a 1-hour meeting. And she said, no, I want 90 minutes. And I was like, no, these meetings are 1 hour. Did I, had I ever expressed to her that my meetings will be 1 hour to give me time to do the work? I hadn't. She called me on it and I was so grateful. I'm like, yeah, oops, you're right. You weren't inside my head when I was giving that quote, you know, knowing that I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna fit it all in. And so there's all this other stuff that is in my mind that I wasn't expressing, but it really comes down to making our expectations visible. But honestly, that takes a good deal of self-reflection, because if I don't— it never occurred to me that I had an expectation of a 1-hour meeting until I bumped up against somebody else's expectations there. So those are just like 2 of the 9, but those are the things that I think are totally easy, sometimes easy. To bring into these workplace relationships that help the collaborations go better.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's, we used to call it a safe place for real talk. And yeah, if you have 30 seconds, you're like, how are you doing? It's like, man, I feel like garbage today because I didn't get any sleep or like my son, daughter, partner, dog, whatever is having a health issue. And so I'm like, I'm not 100 right now. So sorry if I'm kind of a dick. I think it just, it's, I think it gets you into that expectation thing and like the human connection piece. I think you're 100% right. It, I mean, it sounds, it feels, it feels right. Then the other piece you said around the expectation. Yeah, I mean, I struggle with that. It's like, wait, you don't know, you didn't have all the years experience that I have and like you, this isn't obvious to you.

Well, and the one You know, you just gave where, you know, your service dog had to go into the ER and is having a liver issue. Like, to drop that as a piece of context that, you know, theoretically say that had just happened and I saw you looking at your phone during our meeting. If I know that your dog had just gone to the vet, when I see you looking at your phone, I'm much more likely to make a positive attribution for that poor meeting behavior. Like, we should not be on our phones when we're also in a meeting. Seems obvious, yet so many people do it. Um, I can say, oh gosh, I'm wondering if Sean's getting good news or bad news about the dog right now. If I don't have that, instead I get to be like, oh, Sean's being an ass.

Mm-hmm.

Um, he's not taking our meeting seriously. He doesn't actually care about this project we're working on. So that storytelling that we can go into can be softened. Well, first of all, we have to slow that down too and like acknowledge we don't actually know everything that's going on. Um, but if you've given me some more fodder to work with, it, it Softens my lens so I can read you in a more generous way that doesn't hurt the relationship piece too. Right.

Yeah, man, a couple of things hit me when you were saying that. And I lost them both. I know what it was. So it's kind of like at the beginning of the meeting, you'd be like, hey, I have a hard stop at the top of the hour or in 30 minutes. You set, I mean, it's just a simple thing. You set an expectation at the start of the meeting. So You know, I feel like what's, what's an easy way to get people into this? It's just like thinking about the stuff we're already doing that's so rote and then just taking it one tiny little bit step further. And it's like, okay, what's the other expectation that I have? Well, on this project, you know, the expectation is a week and I know it's like something that should take a month and we only have a week and it's gonna have to mean like work over the weekend. And you just have to acknowledge it and it's like, damn, okay, well, Is this something you wanna sign up for? Like, we just have to talk about it. So I think as soon as you understand something that's like, oh, this might be a weird thing, I think you almost have to call it out, which is like what you said earlier about this, maybe not the expectation setting, but like just calling out the uncomfortable a little bit. You just sort of do it and you sort of see it coming. I don't know if everybody can do that, but you kind of do.

Yeah.

I mean, we all have these like, human antenna readers that say, oh, that might not feel good for me. It probably is not going to feel good for him or her or they or whatever. And yeah.

And right in there, you're, you know, there's so much great stuff in what you just said where it's the taking the risk of saying what you're actually feeling like, this isn't feeling awesome for me. I'm not excited to give up my week yet. I see why I'm going to have to given the project. How are you feeling about it? Like, And then doing that with intent, like being intentional, like what are the expectations going in here? And then also caring enough about the other person's experience of it to actually ask about it, even if you can't necessarily do anything differently. But then thinking, especially if you're in a leadership role, what's the compensatory action that I can do to make this a little bit more palatable?

Yeah.

And even if it's just recognizing, wow, you're getting— I know you said you had your kiddo's birthday party tomorrow night. Please don't miss that.

Yeah, do your thing.

We'll catch you up tomorrow. Or, you know, like, hey guys, you know, we're gonna bring in the nice food or something for the late night, or we're gonna not do this next week. We're gonna cut back hours or everyone, you know, take Friday off or whatever. Like to say, I know you're not a machine and you're giving up some of your own time for this. It's important.

Yeah, I think, and what I've experienced, I think there is, maybe it's changed over the years or just the folks I've worked with over the years, but I feel like this whole life comes first thing and work comes second. Like if you don't take care of yourself, your health, like you don't go to that doctor visit, you don't take care of your child, resentment forms, like you can't do good work anyways. And I feel like that has been recognized and is acceptable, especially in today's world. It's like, okay, take care of yourself, do what you need to do, and catch up later. I mean, especially in the remote work world too now where it's like, I mean, and working on the internet. I mean, internet time is 24/7, 365. It's like cryptocurrency trading. It's like it's never off and we're on phones and it's just gonna keep being that way. So like I've been in the situation where I just completely didn't do anything for myself and everything for the org or the business or whatever. And like, it's that debt that essentially comes due, like the bill always comes due. So it's like better to take care of it. And I found most people are very reasonable about it too, because I think if you give that sort of leeway or just human aspect to them, when you need it, it's also there for you. And it's like, It's really not a big deal. It's like, what, 2 hours a day in the infinite game of business, which will go our entire lives and far beyond. It's like, it's not even a blip.

Yeah, it's like that whole put your own oxygen mask on before trying to help others thing. Like, we're better able to do our thing and to be there for our collaborators, our colleagues, if we're feeling at least something toward whole. And then the idea that if the shock absorbers are spent, then at least for me, like, if I'm tired or hungry or stressed out, I'm so reactive. Like, I— that's when I'm going to jump down somebody's throat, you know? And I certainly have no intention of doing that, but I'm just— I don't absorb—

Yeah.

You know, stress— that, that's kind of stress very well. And so I, like, I know that about myself. So when I notice myself getting You know, growly. I, I go, I keep, you know, like over in the corner, like the bowl of fruit, the, the snack bars or whatever, so I can at least get some calories in and not be—

I hear you.

I know, not be a total jerk. Um, but it's, yeah, but it's hard because again, it takes self-awareness and it takes deciding that those signals, you know, whether it's that our body is sending us our stress levels, that those are valuable enough to pay attention to, that, you know, we're valuable enough to invest in for ourselves, for others. And it's true, I think, you know, going back to families too, it's true in families too. Like, if you're the, the parent who's always sacrificing your own social time or your own dinner preferences or your own, um, temperature that you want the room in or something like that, then that's a lot of give, give, give without really nurturing the self either.

I agree. I think it's like, how close are you to hair trigger? mode. And because like, because everyone's been there, and when that trigger goes off, it's not good for you or anybody else. So you just got to find a way to pull yourself back from that hair trigger. And like, you, yeah, I mean, it's like burnout. You know it. You, you know it when you feel it. Like, it's there. And, uh, yeah, like, if you haven't laughed in like a week, like, you're close to hair trigger mode. Like, it's Yeah, yeah.

So it sounds like a good listicle. If you haven't laughed and— yeah, you're close. Like, if you've got, you know, more than 4 dishes piled up on your desk, you're close to hair trigger mode.

God, yeah, that's so real. It's like coffee cups and dishes. Like, if you look around and it's just like mayhem in your workspace, it's like, okay, time to step away. So yeah, the one thing, I mean, I don't know if you're comfortable with this, but like afterwards when I like put the show together or whatever, I'll like include an image or whatever. But the one thing that stuck with me that you showed me the last time we talked about just a specific sort of situation we were contending with at a company I was working with. But I remember this one image, it was like a one-pager you had and it was like the brick wall. And like the circular and you can't go backwards. Like, if there's one I can include in the show notes or one that you feel very strongly about, that would be amazing. And then we can like link out to your book as well. Because for me, that was like such an epiphany. I don't know if you, if you can talk about it very quickly, but like, it was a one-way door. And once you go through that door, you can't just turn around and walk back through it the other way. You have to come— all the way around again. And so, and that's like this collaboration piece and like if you mess it up in that moment, like you are on this long loop which like slows down speed, it impacts your ability to execute the business and in the market and like that's like such a critical thing. And I feel like these, I feel like this is the problem with like human capital and the soft and the touchy-feely stuff is like The only way to make people understand it is like you gotta hit them through the eyeballs with like, this is impacting your ability to execute a project and this is costing you millions of dollars because the minute this happens, you're done. Like you're done and the best people are lapping you in these moments and they're lapping you because they figured it out and meanwhile, you're just like stuck in quicksand.

Yeah.

You can't get out of the loop.

So This is where— so collaboration is absolutely a competitive advantage because it means that when your team's working together well, everything from your timelines to your bottom lines are going in a favorable direction.

Right.

Plus, you're not going to have all of the rehiring costs because when people are in shitty collaborations, they're super stressed out and they're carrying it home. So my data showed that people who have these high-quality collaborative relationships Their mental health is better. Their job satisfaction is better, which means they're not a flight risk. And they want to collaborate more. They want to do more of this stuff than the people who are in the crappy collaborative relationship. So super important. But the matrix you're talking about, so we started to talk about it, but I wasn't sure if I should go into the whole system. Happy to send you because that's what the book is all about. But I can send you that image from the book. It's not a— there's no brick wall, but I left it like a thick black line. I'll describe it so people— should I describe it as though they're actually looking at it right now?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, because here's why. Because I think accessibility is very important to me, which is why I do image, video, audio, text.

Excellent.

There's some people who can see, some people who can hear, some people who can't. We all learn differently. So yeah, for those who aren't able to see the image, please describe it as if Awesome.

I love that. So imagine on the horizontal axis, we have interdependence, which is the extent to which our outcomes are mutually dependent on each other's behaviors. So whether I like it or not, my wagon is hitched to your horse and vice versa. So, you know, if you screw up, I get consequences, that sort of thing. So that's interdependence. And then on the vertical axis, we have relationship quality. It very simply just goes from low to high. And this sounds like the most simplistic definition, but if you think your relationship is going well, you've got high relationship quality. It's totally a subjective evaluation. So you've got these 2 dimensions, and like every business model, imagine it's a 2 by 2 space. So if you have— imagine the top right-hand quadrant where you have really high interdependence and really high relationship quality. This is where magic happens. This is where you get, you know, the glitter, encrusted unicorns flying through the sky where you get to work with somebody who you trust, who you know they know their stuff. You know that when they touch something, they, you know, they do good things with it. They follow through on what they say they're going to do. The quality of the work is great. So you have this high quality, high interdependence magic in the quadrant over to the left of that. So now we're talking about the top left quadrant. So we have low interdependence, high relationship quality. These relations, these collaborative relationships are— I call them high potential, where you've got the right ingredients to add that amplifier of interdependence. But right now, it's just kind of fun. We like hanging out together. We have fun when we're together. But the work isn't necessarily as complex or as interrelated as it could be. And the group is probably ready for it. In the bottom left corner now— so I'm working around— in the bottom left corner now, you've got low interdependence, Low relationship quality. So this might be like the person who you see once a week for that one meeting project. You don't know them, you don't care about them, they don't know you. They, you know, it's like whether, whether they go and put that in Times New Roman font or Calibri font, you don't— it doesn't really matter to you there. It doesn't have any bearing on the stuff that you're doing. So that's just kind of like, meh, like who cares? It's not really much of a relationship at all, actually. But the really interesting one to my mind is in the bottom right corner. So you have really high interdependence and the relationship quality is in the gutter. So here is somebody like, I don't like you, I don't trust you, I think you're a bossy boss, you know, like you're a jerk and everything you do hits me. So like, if you don't do your stuff, I'm the one taking the heat for it. If you do a crappy job, I'm the one who has to go tell the client and like try to cover your ass even though you did a shitty And so it's like, this is the area of collaborate where it's miserable to be in these relationships. These are the ones we're taking home with us that we're venting to our spouse about at dinner that we are losing sleep over. These are horrible. These are costing companies a crazy amount of money, both in terms of innovation, execution, turnover costs, how people experience you and your company. It's all tanking right here. Okay.

Well, we've all been there. We all have that experience. It's like hits us right between the eyes when you describe that one, I think. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And so your question about, so where's the brick wall? Here's the thing. If you're in that bottom right quadrant of collaborate, getting up to collaborate in that top right quadrant, it's not a matter of just like, oh, we got to improve our relationship quality. Let's go do some trust falls. You know what would be really helpful here? Let's go have A team happy hour, that's gonna be great.

Yeah.

There's a brick wall there. Like, you can't go straight from collaborate to collaborate. Instead, what you need to do is decrease interdependence. So you have to let go of some of those shared outcomes, which is hard in a lot of hyperstructured business spaces where all the workflows, all the project flows are already predetermined. So you have to figure out how can we release some of those interdependencies, then you can work on the relationship quality, um, and improve that. Then you can increase the interdependence again. So you have to go through the model from the bottom right corner, circle around clockwise to get back to that top right, um, that top right quadrant.

Mm-hmm.

And it's kind of, yeah, I know I've been talking relationship or romantic relationship parallels all, all hour, so I'll add another one here. It's kind of like if you're in a marriage that's on the cusp of divorce and it's a space of collaborate, like we're really freaking miserable.

Yeah.

If you go to a therapist and the therapist is like, oh, you know what you should do is like you should go have a romantic dinner out. That's going to fix it. Bullshit. That's not— no therapist would tell you that. That's not what you need. This is where if the couple has the resources to do it, typically, there's a separation, like they physically move out or like one person moves to the basement and the other person stays up on the first floor with the kids or something like that, i.e., they're separating a little bit. They're reducing the interdependency. Then they're working on the relationship quality, the better understanding each other's expectations and assumptions and needs and wants and hopes and fears and all those sorts of things, getting solid there on relationship quality and then bringing the couple or the family back together again under You know, literally one space. So there's a parallel in terms of how we repair relationships in the, you know, the non-work world that can be really useful when we think about how we repair and build our collaborations.

Yeah, I mean, that's so real too. I mean, that's about as real as it comes. And yeah, I feel like a lot of us have been in those relationship styles. I feel like in a work setting, that same separation thing, I feel like what actually happens is you leave the organization. You leave, they leave, something else happens— conflict and like terminations, whatever— like very bad outcomes and feelings. And it's like sometimes those relationships can never be repaired.

Mm-hmm.

Like the trust, the trust is so destroyed on so many levels that they can't be, and you just can't do it. So I think probably what— there's some, there's some degree upon which it can happen still in an organization. Have you delved deeply into this where, like, on that continuum, let's say, of like how, how poor that relationship is, like where that line might be where it's like this ain't never gonna work? Or there's hope. Like, do you have any sense of where that, where that is? Yeah.

And there's also, you know, different ways of dealing with it. So you can, you can adjust it, like move that around by adjusting how frequently people are interacting together, how strong those, those outcome associations are, like to what extent you have an influence on me, but also the diversity of ways So maybe your bad behaviors is going to cost me money because we're on some sort of bonus program where team performance equals money or something like that. So you can adjust both frequency, diversity, and strength. But in terms of where's that tipping point, it's going to depend on the individual's tolerance. It's going to depend, I think, also on leadership's ability. There are some bad apples. There are some people who don't get along with anybody. Every single team they're on, they're tanking that team. And the leadership has to make the hard decision of getting them out. Like, it's in no— it's not in the organization's interest. So you've got fiduciary responsibility, you know, to advance the company's bottom line. And if you're allowing somebody to stay there who cannot play well with others, that's— to me, that's unethical. It's like you've got to figure out a way to get them to get those people transitioned out and, you know, do it in a humane, supportive way. But it's— if it's tanking everybody else, you know, coming in with some interventions, some kumbaya is not going to help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like the cancer. You have to remove the cancer from the organization. I'm sure many of us have come across those folks. And I've also seen that especially difficult is when those people are incredibly high performers. And producing like significant results that impact the business in a positive way, then what do you do? I mean, a lot of— Yeah, I saw a lot of this written about in startup land like maybe 5, 10 years ago. And I think the outcome of all of it is you just have to let them go because it's the amount of negative that's created as a result of that far outweighs and the ripple effect far outweighs this, the single person's results. And then the other piece of this, as I've talked to some other folks, is like the superhero syndrome where like some people feel like they need to be the superhero, fly in, like be the magic fixer, fix everything and then fly out. Like it maybe works once or twice, but in larger organizations, it just ends up like it's untenable. You gotta fix the problem at the root instead of like Trying to rely on superhero antics because that just doesn't work either. So I think you're right in both situations. Like, you just have to— yeah, the cancer has to be removed. You just have to be careful of making sure you know what that is.

Yeah. And I think, you know, in this situation of the golden child, um, like the superstar, um—

Eddie Murphy shout out. I love it.

If they're open to intensive coaching, like they see that they're a problem and want to do something about it. I think that's a door to try, but it's not necessarily a guarantee. And then on the— just a quick story before we hang up here. The super or the come in and fix it. One of the people I interviewed for this book works at one of the big tech, huge tech firms and has the story of a collaborator who they'd been working together for something like 16 months, and they were getting ready to go do some rollout. And then all of a sudden, this collaborator comes in with a PowerPoint deck of the 14 unmitigated risks that she had not taken care of. And it's like, for the love of God, you were literally here for the past number of months. Why did you bring this up? And it was like the assessment was it was somebody who wanted to come in and be the the savior and get credit for being so smart and having been able to see all the, all the things that, like, why would you not have just shared that at a time when people could have actually done something really important with your feedback? That's such a jerk move.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think that sort of thing— is this the person that I know as well? No.

Oh, no. Okay.

I think the reason for that, because I've also experienced this, is Some poor organizations will take your value and then as soon as all of that value has been taken from their perspective, see you later. And I see this happen with people I care about as well and it happens far too often. And so the incentive that gets developed as a culture in the business world and I see this in every organization, healthcare, tech, whatever, doesn't matter. Like if I'm not irreplaceable, then you can replace me. And it just goes back to this organizational trust of like this pump and dump, hire and fire, and like we're all at will at any time, you know. And I think something's lost there a little bit. But this is, I think, the one thing that I will state about this because I do have a lot of international folks that listen to this, especially in Europe. And I think America is so hard charging and almost like to an extreme level of productivity and everything that many of friends and colleagues I've worked with over the years in Europe aren't quite as crazy as us Americans.

Thank God.

The other thing is like even in France, like sometimes, and this is similar in Japan, like the journeyman is like the tech, the term in Japan, but You're hired and you work for a company for your entire life and like in France, you can't get fired kind of situation which creates other sort of incentive problems, of course, and like performance problems. But I feel like there's got to be some kind of happy medium because in the United States, the incentive now is everyone's going to move to 1099 and freelance because what's the point of putting all my time, effort, and energy into your company and then you just leave me up shit's creek one day. When, and this is the key point, no business would rely on one customer for the entirety of their revenue, but every single employee in the United States relies on one customer for 100% of their livelihood, which is like the dumbest thing you can do. So it's like you're forced into 1099 and freelance and forced to work for multiple companies in order to protect your family and survive. And so it feels to me back to like Bucky Fuller's principle, which I am aligned with, is like we need a better system that protects employees, protects companies, allows us to do good work, not get damaged for it and collaborate. And so I often wonder this whole Web3 thing and like independent together, decentralization, DAOs, If what you're talking about and the real unlock for you and your business is how do you figure out a collaboration approach, like maybe it's software like Asana, Jira, whatever project management software, but it's collaboration software such that people from all around the world at a moment's notice can jump into a project, get things going, establish rapport and relationships on like from a standing start and then execute against a goal and then can do that you know, all over the place because you wake up to money and here's like 5 opportunities in my inbox every morning. And guess which one I'm gonna choose? The one that pays me relatively the same, but the one that feels better. And the one that feels better is the one where I can collaborate with people in a nice way.

That sounds fun.

Your thoughts?

No, I think that's— I have to get off to the airport. So I think that might be the good one to end on. But super interesting, the idea of It's like a collaborative or a micro collaboration platform, which I know we have versions of that, but how to make it worth people's time and effort. Love it. Yeah.

Let's tinker on it a little bit and I'll send you a follow-up because I need a high-res photo for like Apple Podcasts and stuff. I've started doing that now, so they'll give me a pretty little up there.

Is it okay if I do that next week?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. It's not a huge deal. I'll send you a note later. I know you gotta get to the airport and all that stuff.

So And I'm leaving my computer behind.

Oh my God.

I know. Maybe that's why I'm feeling anxious now that I say it out loud. I'm like, Nike's.

Yeah. There you go. That's— I've— more power to you, man. That's courage, Deb.

Well, we'll see if it goes okay.

I mean, I— You'll be fine. You got a phone, right?

I got my phone. I've got my away message, and I've got a book, so I think I'll be okay.

Right. Well, if you need anything, give me a shout, and I can try to computer it for you if you're like in an emergency.

That's very kind. Thank you. This was so fun to, to get to see you and to have this conversation. I found it really useful.

Yeah, this is great. Let's do it again like next year or something and let's see where we are and tinker on some software in the meantime.

I love it. Yeah, we'll build, we'll build something out. I'll talk to you soon.

All right. Bye, Deb. Thank you. Have a good one.