Disruptive System Design with Nilima Achwal | Designing for Disruption

Hello, how are you?

I'm good, how are you?

Doing well. Let me put my, uh, let me put my focus mode on here. All right, we're good to go.

Happy New Year! Happy New Year!

How are you? Where in the world are you right now?

I'm in LA.

In LA?

Yeah, in Playa Vista. And it's literally been raining for like 2 or 3 weeks at this point. It feels like the Mumbai monsoon. I feel like I'm back in Mumbai.

I've heard that. I'm working with a couple people right now, and a couple of them are in Southern California, and it's just weird weather. Like, great to have the rain to stop the fires from happening, but then you have like a different problem. It's like this weird scale balance thing with California and the weather. So Hopefully things, uh, things are okay. We were there during the fires a couple years ago. I think it was 2019. I remember walking out the front door and it was just soot everywhere. I mean, it was wild.

Were you there for the Santa Barbara fires in 2019? Like, oh no, that was like 2017. That was a little earlier, actually.

It was a little earlier.

I was like literally like in that, like I was at my friend's place and I like walked out And literally we just saw the mountain, like, fire just coming towards us. It was so crazy.

It's really scary.

But it's like powerful to like be able to witness nature like that sometimes. Yeah, rather than just like seeing it on TV.

We, we are certainly, uh, tiny specks of dust on the surface of a very live organism, and it'll throw us off if we don't treat it right. So Hey, cheers to water, you know.

Cheers.

Also clean water.

Also, like, I, I took out my pretty glass for—

it's nice, it's got the prism effect. You got the whole rainbow going. Yeah, that's nice. So you got some rest. How's the new year starting for you so far this year?

By the way, like, is this— this is like— is this already started, or are we Starting.

Yeah, we're, we're in it.

Oh, okay.

It's just, it's as organic as it comes. I mean, it's gonna be like every other time we've talked. There's no difference.

Okay, usually people are like, okay, let's start. That's— I wasn't sure.

Yeah, we— yeah, there's no difference. There's no masks here. This is mask-off zone.

Yeah, it's just like an organic creation of life.

Yeah, like there should be no difference between work and play, you know. It's like, it's all— we're all just humans at the end of the day, and dogs, animals, machines. I don't know, I'm sure there's machines listening in at some point.

That's really funny actually, because, because like we'll just be talking about random things for a long time and then like eventually getting to the thing.

Yeah, it's just how life goes. I mean, that's, that's just cultural differences too. Like in some parts of the world it's years, months, weeks of getting to know each other, and then, you know, we might chat business. And in America, like, especially New York, it's just like, let's go. Like, what do we— how are you? Fine. All right, anyways.

Yeah, in a way it's cool because I feel like in our culture, like, things happen, you know? Like, we really— like, things just move. Because, you know, I did spend some time in other places where it takes longer to build those relationships, and it can just be like, uh, Um, but it's really cool kind of bringing that relationship building into life here because it just, it's, it makes everything so much easier and also more fun and more meaningful.

Yeah, it's so true. It's so true.

Do you want to do a grounding breath?

Yes, I do. This is like one of my favorite things that, that you do. You're the only, one of the only people that has acclimatized me to this in a, in a meeting, in a Zoom call. And I think it's so great and important. So how much better would it be to do it as part of a podcast episode too, which you don't see a lot of? So yeah, let's do it.

And you know what's so cool about a ground— so I'll like explain it. So basically, it's like, we're— it's like you're coming into your heart, right? It's like your mental chatter is quieting down. And it's like we're, we're clearing the energy from past calls or like past interactions that day. And so when I'm working with clients, Or even just like potential partners, whoever. It's like, almost like we've gone into a conference room, like at the office we work at, you know? And it's like, it's a special space. It's just like the— for that relationship to flourish. And I've been thinking about like, it would be so cool because I think about like, what does new paradigm organizations look like? And I think that if people can take a second to sit in a circle and take a breath together, like in teams. I feel like it would do a lot for team dynamics and relationships as well, because again, it's like taking off the mask and relating to each other at a more heart level. Yeah, which would be really cool, I think, in the future. I mean, it's worth organizations.

Yeah, it's worth a shot. The world's so crazy as it is, like why not try a new experiment, you know? Like Taking a breath, is that really going to hurt us? Of course not. So let's do it.

Yeah. So let's just close our eyes and just take a nice deep breath into your heart space. And whenever you feel grounded, we can open our eyes.

Takes it down a notch, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah. Um, something that I sometimes say in my mind is I'm like, let this be of like the most value to both of the people, and, uh, like in this case, and for the audience, because then there's like a centering effect of like only the things that are of value will be exchanged. And like, it's cool.

I love that. I mean, that is the essence of Business is creating value in the marketplace, and what's a bigger marketplace than the internet? So it's a great intention for professional calls, I think.

Yeah, I think so.

And beyond, and beyond. So yeah, I'd love to hear— I mean, I know you've got a couple projects going on, and I'd love to hear sort of the origin story of how you got there. And, you know, you can go back as far or skip as fast through time as you want to. But I've started doing this now and I think it's really interesting because you see the slope of the line and people's story arcs over time and how they sort of got to where they are now. And I think it just humanizes us a lot more. So I'd love to hear, I mean, I know you've shared a little bit with me in the past, but hear more about your story. And how you got to sort of the thing, the project you're working on now. I think that'd be great.

Yeah. So basically, I've been in the social enterprise space for like, I want to say like 13 years. So I graduated from the University of Michigan in 2009. And I almost just like went straight into the impact slash by, you know, through business space. I was a Kiva Fellow. And so that's a microlending platform and they work with low-income women entrepreneurs all over the world and give them microloans through their microfinance institutions. And so I was in Bolivia, and so I was literally like in the Andes, kind of like riding around on the backs of loan officers, like motorcycles, like going to slums and villages and interviewing like these indigenous women and in Spanish. So like my first job was like 100% in Spanish. I'm fluent in Spanish. And it was just the craziest introduction to work life. I was 21, right? That was my first job and like my first real job. And at the same time, kind of looking at the processes inside the microfinance institution and like where can that be improved? And literally just being by myself like in this foreign country and work culture and capturing these stories and putting them online for lenders to see from all over the world. And I think there was like a few things that happened there. It was like when I did my 1-week training at the Kiva office in San Francisco, I was like, wow, there's this group of like extremely intelligent, like quality, you know, like people who also have these visions to change the world and this heart to change the world. And that's something like I hadn't seen that in the NGO sector, or in the private sector. So I was like, this is a really powerful confluence. And San Francisco was the hub of the social impact space, you know, the last like 20 years. And feeling like, feeling like we can finally use our brains, our like all of our life of like overachieving and trying so hard to be have excellence in what we do, but actually use that to change the world, you know? And so, and then the other cool thing was that I was by myself in this foreign country doing this work as a 21-year-old. And so that required me to have so much huge autonomy. And it's almost like entrepreneurial skills, right?

Yeah.

It's like, how do I figure out what needs to be done? create those relationships and those bridges across my organization and their organization and build that trust in only 3 months and implement those changes, which was not easy because even there, there's like politics, there's inertia, and who is this like random American girl, like 21-year-old girl, like they've like sent from America to tell us how to do our work, right?

Trying to speak Spanish at the same time.

Yeah. And luckily, like, I had, I had done that already because I like studied abroad in Mexico and Chile in college. So I was like, I was good on that front. Um, but yeah.

So on the, on the microfinance piece, was there like an interesting takeaway? I mean, you're riding around on these scooters essentially and going, I mean, I don't, can you describe the environment that you were in? Like, what, what was it like walking up and meeting these people?

So microfinance institution is like a bank for the poor. And these bank locations are usually like, we're literally in the Andes, right? So this is an indigenous country, 80% indigenous. It's mountainous, like part of it is mountainous, part of it is rainforest. And these bank locations are in the middle of the communities that they serve.

Mm-hmm.

But the places where these borrowers live could be like super far even from the bank branches.

Mm-hmm.

So inside the office, you know, you're like looking, they're looking at loan applications, they're vetting people and stuff. But then to actually go to the borrower's site, to their homes, you know, where the women have created circles. And so they have group, groups of women that have come together to access a loan amount. So they have, they don't have, you know, they can't leave their places. So we go to them, we go to their homes. And we usually will sit like in there inside their house. They'll like offer us Coke. Coke, Coke is like really has done a good job in Bolivia, which is really sad. But it's like almost like an honor. You're a guest, so we won't give you water, we'll give you Coke. And then I had to drink it. I don't even drink pop. And but like, I don't, you know, to be respectful, I had to drink it. And I'm like, oh God, like I'm drinking so much Coke. But like. And then, you know, and then you interview them and you like, and then I would take my notes and then later I would, I would turn that into stories and put it online.

That's, yeah, Coca-Cola is a brand known throughout the world. I mean, that's why Warren Buffett invested in it. I mean, it is, it's like a fundamental infrastructure of the world. But I'm curious though, so it's indigenous people. So what, I mean, that feels like a big hurdle to be like, hey, you're gonna want this like weird money thing that we develop. And like, did they have the concept of this? Like, it seems like a lot of objections are like, why do I even care in my normal life? Or did you have to translate it into, you know, this is how we get grain or water or food or whatever? How has that translation occurred into the banking system? I mean, that's a big jump.

Microfinance started in India. Actually, it started in Bangladesh, and then it really grew in India as well. It started by Muhammad Yunus, Grameen Bank. And so there's like a lot of— there's history on this about how he experimented with the group lending model and educated them and like helped them access loans for their microbusinesses, you know, and, and then microfinance grew all around the developing world. And so when these, when these institutions went in, so the loan officers have built like personal relationships with all of the borrowers. And so There's a lot of trust built over like decades of them really working with those communities. Got it.

Yeah, a long time. So they already kind of took them on the journey of why it's needed, what you can do with it, how you use it, like what debt is and interest is and all of that sort of thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, makes sense. Cool. Well, what happened next?

Yeah, so then I was a— I came back, I was a business case writer at the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. So I was actually like high-level writing academic case studies on all various companies that, um, and like, so coordinating with business school professors and company execs to write these, like, I mean, any— I don't know, like, you know, like the B-school cases, like the Harvard-style, like, case studies. And so it's like around a specific issue the company is facing. And this allowed me to kind of gain this like high-level view of what's happening in business and how it works. And so I did that for— and so then basically I kind of reached the point where I was like, I want to be in the field working with social innovators rather than being in academia writing cases about people who are in the field doing the work. And there's like entrepreneurial challenges on the ground which aren't captured in, you know, just in like case studies.

Right.

And so I was like, I'm gonna book a one-way ticket. I'm gonna go to either India. I'm either gonna go to Mumbai or Nairobi was what I thought, because there was just a lot of social innovation action happening in both places. And I ended up getting a 1-year Vilgro Fellowship. So Vilgro is the biggest social enterprise incubator in India, and they're based in Chennai. And so, and it was really funny because like the timing of the fellowship was exactly when I said that I would quit my job and go. And so it just all lined up. And so I moved to India. I did my 1-year fellowship at the incubator. So I was like, and I actually ended up like literally designing and conceptualizing and launching an early-stage accelerator program for them. And so that was really cool because I built— basically built like a huge network of early-stage impact investors across India, like executives, mentors. I brought in IDEO, Stanford d.school, like GSBI from Santa Clara University. So we had people flying in from Silicon Valley. And just like basically brought together all these amazing resources to help these entrepreneurs who had solutions for the base of the pyramid. So base of the pyramid being defined as like, you know, urban or rural poor. So they had education solutions, energy solutions, agriculture, again, microfinance, healthcare, you know, and so they're creating these services and products, but they're really tailoring it In terms of affordability, in terms of distribution and product market fit for the bottom segment of the population, which has not had access to these things.

Right. Yeah, that's good. That's a lot. How did it— I mean, that's pretty crazy that you could get, I guess, the caliber, you could almost call it tier 1 caliber talent coming from sort of the dead center of technology industry in Silicon Valley. I mean, obviously, top heads everywhere. And in India, it's got its own like top-tier talent as well. And India, and then getting them all focused on this. What do you think was the primary driver of that? Was it just humanitarian goodwill? Do you think there was some capitalism in there involved as well because of the sheer scale of this and like a combination of both, or what did you feel from the group that was there?

There's like this, and you've probably, I don't know if like you notice this sometimes in pitch competitions or where there's a lot of like investors and founders and no, like everyone's investor or founder, right? There's this buzz, like this like low-level electricity where everyone's just like, what's gonna happen next? Like, how do we solve this? Like being on the edge of your seat. And that's really when I fell in love with the startup space because everyone is on, everyone is on, like all systems firing. Like, how do I help? How do we make this happen? What's up with this business model? What's going on with this customer segment? Tell me about your product, right?

Yeah.

And so they're meeting the founders where they're at, which is so exciting because founders generally don't get met where they're at, like by people who Don't have like that driver's seat mentality, you know? Right.

Yeah, that's good. I mean, that's what it takes to be a founder. You need to have buckets of energy and drive and grit. And it's like, I've often heard that, that grit is the thing that separates success from not. It's just like you keep going no matter what. Like the only way you can be stopped is if you're dead. Like, that's literally the only way that I'm stopping.

And it's like, yeah, they're literally coming from this really, really tough situation, which is like, how do we create this product to reach, to scale and reach millions of people across India who are in hard-to-reach locations and hard to educate and hard to level everything? But what's cool is like, they're coming in, like, you know, like being a founder is hard and it's stressful and Everything. But like coming into the accelerator, it's like the last thing you want is people telling you like, here's your homework for today, or like, here's what you have to do now in addition to your work, right? And so that's where I did my accelerator model a little. I studied all the accelerator models, I listened to founders, and I built something that would integrate into their immediate pressing concerns.

Yeah. Yeah.

And not treat them like children, which is what a lot of these ecosystems inadvertently do because they're based off of our school system, which is, you know, a different conversation.

So what did you find? So it sounds like you studied and went deep on all the different accelerators, their methods, their processes, etc. What did you find that was like the key point of differentiation that you were like, actually, this piece is broken? Or was it just a smattering of things across the board? that you just kind of like picked and put together?

One core KPI. Um, let's get you funded. Like, if you're going through this program, like, you should raise capital coming out of the program, right? And that seems kind of hard. Like, it doesn't feel like, you know, I'm talking about all of the soft stuff, right? Yeah. But when we centralize on the one core, and you love this because you're a product person, um, but like, when we centralize on, like, you call it the north star. But when we centralize on that, but then you actually have to create a design that supports the humans towards that, right? So then I had to create a design that created strong relation on non-hierarchical relationships between the mentors and the founders and the investors. And I had to create spaces that felt safe where they could continue.

Yeah.

And then they had to have consistency in like interacting and like all of these things and had to come into. And then I had to have an eye on like the business model development of each of the founders and their like venture stuff so that I could make sure the right people were coming in at the right time as they went through their own roadmap, you know, of like success. And so there's a lot of like systems then can, that can come in to support that goal, that holistic goal.

Yeah, we talked about this in the past, but I mean, the words you said it there, it was system design and system architecture is like really what I'm hearing from you because there's sheer, there's a lot of complexity in there and it just feels like a matrix of connections and complexity. And like, how did you, how did you go from this amorphous idea into something more tangible? Like, did you create, did you map it out on a piece of paper? Did you create a spreadsheet, or was it just go and just go and start connecting and having conversations, or a combination there of all the above?

So I think I'm like an INFJ, I want to say, like according to Myers-Briggs. So I don't know what— I think the, the one, the category that I'm in is I'm the most extroverted introvert.

Um, a woman divided cannot stand.

Well, it's so— it's funny because I always, I always touch in with my inner world first. I know there's a lot of entrepreneurs that just go and just like throw spaghetti at the wall. But I'm really, really, really intentional. And then I throw spaghetti at the wall. And so I use like colors. So I'll just like, I'll like put like, like whiteboard or papers, and I'll like map it visually. I'll use colors. I'll like do all that brainstorming and I'll get it to where I'm like, I call it vision crystallization when I'm talking, when I'm working with founders. It's like, is this crystallized enough? And then do I have a value statement for the actual stakeholders I'm reaching out to?

Mm-hmm.

So it's like big vision and then it's like individually for each stakeholder group, like what am I offering and then what are they getting? Yes. And then being super clear on that when I'm starting the conversations. And then the last step is then the, I call it methods, like a vision, value, method. Um, and then method is the, the logistics and just like doing the thing and like, and for, for founder, that's like product or service.

Right.

And then I actually like teach founders this now in my accelerator. Yeah.

It's so funny cuz it's the stuff you just talked about is like fundamentals. In the sports language, it's like blocking and tackling or like learning how to dribble a basketball. But what you described is like pure fundamentals. And I feel like, I feel like there's just been so many blog posts and videos and podcasts and like how to start a startup over the last 20 years. And I feel like part of that has just gotten away from just core fundamentals, like What are you building? Who buys it? From whom? Why? And for how much? And like, if you can't answer those basic questions, like people are just going crazy and trying to build product and like talking to a bunch of people. It's like, well, I don't, you just don't have the answers to the fundamental stuff. So it makes a lot of sense why just pausing, like you, the intentional take a breath, let's sit down, let's map this out. But I would love to see Like a screenshot or a picture of your, your board with all the red strings and like the colors. I would love to see that. That'd be super cool.

Oh my God, so many colors. And I felt like it's almost like I get back to like being in second grade and just like I used to like write stories and like, and, and it's like sometimes we lose that because we think we have to be really serious and like, but I think it's so key to keep, keep that lightness in our work. I have like this literally like—

Oh, do you have one? Oh yeah.

You see this? Like, this is what I use. Like—

That's— I love that. I, I worked with a designer recently in the last couple years, and she used— she would take notes, like handwritten notes, and she had different colors that meant different things. So if you looked at her notebook, I mean, it just looks like rainbow, but for her it was the system. So I completely get it if you color code that and then you can just focus on one thing. And it's really interesting.

Put joy into it. Like, if it's not fun, you don't have the energy to do it. There's no inclination to do it, you know.

So true. There should be no difference between work and play. I mean, I just, I think this stuff we do, like, I think business is like the ultimate never-ending video game. It's like an RPG for folks in the gaming space and you're, it's an infinite game and it matters how you play the game, not just the high score because your high score today may not work well for you tomorrow. So that's core values. And so you better be careful about that stuff.

So yeah, I think it's good. Because it's like there's highs and lows, right? You're going like this. And like, you need a stable foundation in your heart. Like, you need your— your system, your body needs to be so grounded and regulated. And like, no matter if it's like the highest high or the lowest low, because otherwise it's not, you know, it's, it's not gonna work.

Yeah, this too shall pass is one of my favorite Quotes like feeling excellent, this too shall pass, feeling down, this too shall pass. Yeah, you just, the journey of the entrepreneur or just the person off doing their own thing is a roller coaster. And so you're, that grounding you talked about is like tempering that wobble so you don't get seasick because it can make the best of us seasick. I mean, I've been in this game for a long, long time. And I still get seasick from time to time. So yeah, I think regular life helps. Trees helps me, nature, dogs, good people, good food, clean water, that stuff helps regulate the ups and downs.

Yeah. So with Founders, basically, I help women claim their big vision for humanity and for feminine, like, I feel like for feminine founders particularly, being so connected to why you're doing it, but, and then not feeling like you're doing, you have to get validation from the ecosystem, but just being like genuinely excited to change the world and like staying rooted in that is the grounding force for a lot of the founders I work with. And it's so hard because then, you know, you're going out into the ecosystem and you're getting 500 pieces of feedback. And so Then it's like helping them sort like what's aligned to your vision and what's not, you know.

Agreed. I mean, that sounds like that's a good segue to talk about like the niche you carved out for your fund because I think, I mean, that's the thing that really stood out to me as like a key differentiator, not just from a deal flow perspective, but in an underserved population of the market and I just can't help but think that there's a lot of value and alpha in that. So yeah, please share, like, how did you, I mean, how did you get to the niche you got into?

Yeah, so we're not yet to the spiciest part of my story, which was after the accelerators, we had a 75% success rate in them raising money, our KPI. The Rockefeller Foundation came in and put in money to scale that program. I left the accelerator and I started a sex education company.

That's the spice.

So crazy because this has not been done in thousands of years in India. And like, it's led to all of these gender issues and social issues, and it's this huge taboo and you can't talk about it. And I'm, I'm like, it's so obvious to me that if we get to the systemic root of the problem and educate um, kids about gender and sexuality in a positive, respectful, empathetic way, like, we can change their attitudes and behaviors and create new adults.

Yeah.

And so that was my system solution. And like, I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this because it was like just a crazy journey, um, but I built this whole curriculum, um, that facilitators could use to run in schools, um, and again, it had to be like really lightweight for the teachers to use because even the teachers didn't know what sex ed was and had never had it. And it was play-based, it was all game-based. It was like role plays and fun videos and just like completely game-based. And the goal was behavioral change in the students. So that was my core North Star KPI, which we were achieving. And we were seeing like entire classrooms go from being so toxic and bullying and like some schools where they have like no education on this. And they're like so much harassment. And then after the program, they're like, oh, our 8th— that class has turned into our most respectful, empathetic class of the whole school.

What?

What did you do? And we're like, we opened the box. We talked to them about the thing that nobody else is talking to them about. And that— and we taught them about consent. We taught them empathy and respect. And like, we empowered them. Like, we didn't treat them like babies. Like, same thing as Accelerators. Right?

That's— I mean, that's insane to be able to cause a human behavior change in an 8th grade class. That's like a challenge on a challenge. Like, that's insane. And that's crazy.

I'm glad you recognize this because we were literally in India trying to explain to people like what we had created, like the insane— like, we were just like, how did we do this? Almost like, this was my— this was my hypothesis. And like you, you know, like a product person, I work with hypothesis and testing. My hypothesis is that if we create an intervention that's taboo-free and safe, yeah, with good role models at this, at this particular age, and we intervene, and we, and we, and we, and we give this, uh, we create this space, then, then, uh, behavioral change will occur and it will last. And so we came— we went and we did impact, uh, assessments like months down the road, and their transformations had only gotten better over time. Like, it had just— it had sunken even deeper instead of it going away. And then they had started infecting other kids in their community and adults and like started a ripple effect.

Yeah, you— this was like the movie Inception where you dropped a perspective shift into a kid's brain at a key moment in their life and created a safe space for real talk that then had a, I don't even know, 90th percentile retention and then had an off-the-charts virality score associated with it. So like The principles that you described in an environment that's so supercharged emotionally, to be able to transition that, I mean, that, that honestly, if you want my honest opinion, that needs to be taken to Facebook and implemented across 3 billion people on the human population, because that's what's missing in social media, is that concept what you just described. So—

Sean, literally, when I had boys coming up to me and they said, I thought it was right to force a girl to say yes until until you came and talked to us. And thank you so much, Didi. They called us big sister. Thank you for teaching us about consent. I'm teaching all the boys in the school about consent, and I will never force a girl again.

Yeah.

And like, just didn't know any better. And when you were in India and you're in that context and you're seeing the rape cases just all over the news, right? And like, you weren't in this environment. It was a charged environment. So there was a highly publicized rape case that happened in 2013. millions of people flooded the streets with like grief and anger and like, and frustration. And they're like demanding— so this is where we get back to these like medieval roots. They're like demanding like harsher penalties for rapists and like, you know, like they're just like castrate them. And it's just like, no guys, no, like we have better— we can create better systems where this doesn't have to be an issue.

Yeah.

And that's where I created Ayesha Learning because I was like, first of all, and then the tech people were creating these stupid, like, sorry, like not stupid, but like they were creating just apps that were just like panic buttons that like made noise and like stuff like that, which is like good for the moment, but it's a band-aid solution.

Mm-hmm.

And so, and I didn't see anyone thinking in this way. And later on, like, so basically in my journey, like fast forward, I scaled this product to 600,000 students across the country in a partnership with the largest corporation in India, which is Tata.

Oh yeah, for sure. Like, they're gigantic.

And like, that was so validating for these like men in suits. And it took a long time. It took like conversations, conversations. And then finally they came back and you're like, you know what we did? We were in our board meeting and we were talking about you, you know, like, oh, that girl who like was you know, came in and showed us this product. And we were talking about you and we were like, how do we get a competitive edge over the other edtech, uh, you know, behemoths? Like, these are— edtech is huge in India, as you know. It's like, like, you know, huge companies. And they're like, how do we get an edge over them? And they're like, hey, why don't we, why don't we try that, you know, try the sex education? And that's so crazy because I'm talking about people who don't say the word sex. They've never talked about this before in their lives.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, by interacting with me, they're like, hey, like, you know, there's, there's something else here. And just being received in that way was, was so beautiful and heartwarming for me to see. And when people say, like, the world's not gonna change, like, people don't change, and I'm like, yes, they do.

Yeah.

People change. People, people can change so fast.

Mm-hmm. I mean, that is— I'm honestly, honestly, that's I think that's the— let me preface this. So I went to the University of Chicago, which is a pretty well-known business school. We wrote all the Harvard case study stuff, like big in finance and econ. I've been in business for 20 years. What you just described is the single most impactful and best case study I've ever come across or read, bar none, orders of magnitude beyond anything else because That change is insane. I mean, if you talk about like aggressive violent rape to all of a sudden I'm now treating everyone with respect, at the moment of change, at the point where they could divert in their path. And then I think that's the reason—

Two roads diverged in the wood. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And you gotta get there at that moment put the right sign up for people. And because I think you just don't know any better, you don't know any different. It's— I've only been exposed to yellow light. And so I don't know there's such a thing as like red light or something. I don't know, I'm using a weird analogy.

But literally, the world, the world that people live in, it's like literally being in a toxic cauldron. It's like mass media, like Bollywood/Hollywood, like porn, like, not goodwill. I mean, just like, there's no way, right?

Yeah, yeah. And you have to realize, like, you'll actually do better in life. I mean, respect is one of my core values. You will— Warren Buffett says one of the things that can catapult your career is communication. And I would say yes, and respect. Respectful communication. If you treat everybody around you with respect, even those who attempt to do you damage, Watch how much faster you— your star rises in the world. And so just respect. All you're teaching is respect. And like, it's again back to this like core fundamental thing.

Like, we'd have the kids yelling like respect like so many times throughout. Like, we were like brainwashing them, and then they were just— then they were into it.

I mean, Aretha Franklin, she, she knows how to write a, you know, sing a song, write a lyric. That song, R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Okay, so anyways, more to more to go on. We've got like 15 minutes left, so we got to finish your story. This is like incredible stuff.

Time can be stretched and we can we can make it malleable. Yeah, exactly.

Time is an illusion. It's quantum. Everything's quantum.

His breath. This is this is the craziest thing. Is that we think we have to speed up in order to do it in the time, but when we breathe, we create space and we create time. Like, the time expands and then we have more of it.

All right, fill it. Fill that expanded universe. You just created a whole new dimension.

And so, like, that's the thing, because when I was a founder, I was running. I was running and running and running, burning myself out. Ah, I'm like, just breathe. Like, founders— this is the shift that I create in founders. I'm like, When I was, I was pitching in all these accelerators, all these stuffy people, like literally it was like cloud solution, like this thing, like things that are really, you know, just like masculine, whatever you want to call it. And then I'm like sharing my heart and showcasing these results about sex ed, right? And the container was not set up. For that conversation oftentimes, you know, it was like, it's limited to like your pitch deck and like your pitch. And I'm like, I'm, I'm bringing a vision through me to impact the world. And these spaces don't seem like they're set up to really support me in that. And I know how to make a pitch deck and pitch. I ran an accelerator, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so the stress, the extra work that's like not related to what you're building, and like not feeling seen and received in your vision, like that really started to take a toll on me, to be honest.

Yeah.

Especially because I'm going into a market where I am also not being received most of the times, because, you know, in business, like you're 99% rejection because you're trying to shift people's minds, right? And so when you talk about longevity, we have a responsibility as VCs and accelerators not to create more stress for founders, right?

Truth. Yeah, truth.

Um, and I was on a reality show And so I was like on this reality show called The Real Deal. So I was like pitching live to like 10 million people across India. I filmed the whole season. It was like the coolest experience of my life. They like put us up, put us up in the Westin, and then we would just be like shooting TV shows every day. And I was talking about sex ed, like, and like my aunt like saw me on TV and she was just like, what, what's going on? And I'm like, oh, I'm on a TV show. And like, but it's so crazy. It's like, you know, it's like embodying my message was cringy. Embodying my message was cringy for me. I was going through a healing journey and breaking my own taboo.

Yeah. Interesting.

And so oftentimes the things, the visions that, you know, founders are channeling are there for their own healing as well. So how can you hold that healing and also in the context of your venture trajectory?

Mm-hmm.

So I learned all these lessons. I wanted to bring all of this into the Female Founders Lab. So I started the female— came back to California, started the Female Founders Lab, and I started helping pre-seed founders raise capital. Again, I don't know why I take on the most difficult problem, like piece of the problem in like every industry. I don't know why I do that, but that's what I do. And I'm like, first of all, they're pre-seed, so there's like almost no pre-seed funds. Like, it's like mostly starts at seed. You need the metrics to get to seed, but it's going to take you a couple of years to get the metrics to get to seed. They're all going to tell you you're too early. So how do you get the capital to get there and not die in the process?

Mm-hmm.

And that was something that I saw time and again. I saw it with female founders and founders of color who were like, they didn't have like money to start with, right?

Yeah.

And so it's like, how do you get that first $500K to $1 million that allows you to validate your idea and access seed capital? And people are like, oh, there's no pipeline. Like, we need more female founders. There's no pipeline. I'm like, dude, They're all stuck at pre-seed.

Mm-hmm.

There's thousands of brilliant founders building system solutions that can transform our industries. And those are the only sorts of founders I work with, is where they have— again, where we're talking about the levers. Like, what's the lever in the healthcare system that's going to make it transparent and democratic and accessible? And, you know, what's the lever in the food system that'll make it regenerative? What's the— or What's the lever in education that'll allow us to decentralize it and inculcate like new paradigm skills? And, you know, and so these levers are the core root behavioral shift at the human level. And then at the product level, it's like that, that, that thing, that core product that just has this multi-layered effect inside the ecosystem. Systems. So they're touching multiple stakeholders, right? We're not just thinking about this as a linear model anymore where it's like, here's the widget, we're gonna scale this, we're gonna sell toasters, and we're gonna sell it like this, and we're gonna scale the widgets just by sheer force, right? This is quantum. So we're saying we have a widget, but the widget is a hexagon and it's touching 6 different people, and each of those sides can be monetized. So this is a multi-layered value creation. So if each widget is scaling like a normal unicorn would scale, we're not creating unicorns, we're creating— I think they're calling them dragons, but like— That could be nice. Yeah, we're creating multi, multi-billion dollar industry shifting enterprises. And what sort of a VC is going to understand that vision at pre-seed? None, none of them. And so these founders are retrofitting their models into what they think the VC wants to see, which is the widget, and they're compromising their vision. But what happens when they compromise their vision is that they lose all their confidence, they lose all their groundedness, they lose the anchoring in their heart of like, this is what I'm trying to do, right? And when I bring them back to that, I'm like, it's okay to talk about the system.

Yeah.

Briefly, like I help them map the system and then bring it down to the product. And then I say, only invite people into your container or into your fundraise who, who are willing to receive that, right?

Mm-hmm.

And then they start with being like, is that even possible? That's too idealistic. But once we go through the work and they get so amped and confident in the storytelling, they're able to find the people who are willing to buy in. And so I've had founders, I've had 2 founders get into Techstars UnitedHealthcare. which has like a 1% acceptance rate and like at an earlier stage than all the other ventures in the cohort. You know, I've had founders raise— I've had a founder raise $400K in 4 weeks. I had a founder get tie-ups with Kaiser Permanente and Covered California with like 30 users in like her pipeline, right? And so I helped them quantum leap. So I kind of helped them get the story, but then the story creates the identity shift that allows them to kind of invite in all of the stakeholders and like go forward.

Yeah, I hear, I hear a couple things there. One, one of the major problems, and I've experienced this myself on both sides, is you have to take your vision of this beautiful sunset on an ocean cliff, beautiful water, 3 dimensions, every, every sense activating, and you gotta like write it down with crayons on a piece of 2-dimensional paper and go, don't you want this vision? And they go, it kind of doesn't feel so great. And it's like, well, duh, because I had to put it in a way that you could see it because I can't, I haven't invented the picture for it yet. And so it's like that one is the big problem. But the other thing that I've heard is you took a population, 2 things, you took a population that hadn't been paid attention to or taken seriously. And that could be, I don't know, pick your poison, right? A population of people from a variety of different dimensions. But the other thing I heard that you talked about was you took that nugget of learning from the behavior change of the 8th grade class at that core and then are applying that same systems and principles to this population that has been overlooked. And then The third piece that I heard was the new product, and no one's talking about this. And you're right, the new product is not a product and is not a service, it's a system. And people have only started talking about it, but they talk about it as Web3 community. Instead of me broadcasting like radio, we're gonna get a group of people and we're going to all have Discords. And it's like, That's not really what we're talking about. What I hear you talking about is the definition of what Bucky Fuller talked about when he talked about if you want to change the existing system, don't beat it up, don't talk bad about it, build a better system that makes it obsolete. And so I hear like 4 things happening simultaneously in your approach to startups, fundraising, venture capital, LPs, the whole thing, the whole community. Did I get that right? Sort of.

No, I'm just like feeling into if there was anything else. I was just—

the last piece, the last piece.

So excited to hear you reflect that. Yeah, like that. I was just like— and I was drinking it in, and now I'm reflecting on if there was any other pieces. But honestly, like, I just I'm just, I was just so excited when I met you because I was just like, oh my God, you get it, you know? And so it's just so beautiful. It's so beautiful.

I think the last piece that I left out, which was the human, the humanity of it, the human connection, which a lot of people, especially in tech, are too cerebral and like even in investing and you fall, everyone falls on this. It's like, because the entire internet is cerebral. It's here's text, here's an analysis, here's a Word doc, here's an Excel spreadsheet, here's a PDF, right? And it's like, look at all of our statistics and all of this thing. And you, and it's like, here's our requirements doc and user research study. And it's like, and here's a Figma file with all these user flows. And it's like, how does it make you feel?

You know what? So that 2D piece of paper, The way that we, the way that we like conquer that is that I teach, I teach founders how to invite people into a human relationship.

Yeah.

And it's that relationship where people can feel your vision and are open to giving you the time to explain it fully, where we can get that. We have— that's the toolkit. So if we're going beyond paper and crayons, And we're getting into the multidimensional toolkit of trust and of receiving someone's full vision and trusting them and letting them lead you into the new paradigm.

Well, I think the other thing that we're not talking about is you need to have spent the time, energy, had the experience to be a human translator for this because LPs, family offices, endowments, pension funds, They've got bigger fish to fry, right? Like I've got to hit a return threshold over the next 30 years so my pension can be funded via PBGC at 80% or above, yada, yada, yada. And I don't have the time to talk to 1,000 founders and translate vision. So I need someone who does understand all this stuff, i.e., you, that I can invest in, that I'm assured that I'm operating in this market that nobody else is going against because let's face it, bias in terms of that human population and 2, lack of understanding and 3, loss of the fact that you have a heart instead of just the brain. And if you use brain and heart in order to do analysis and connection with markets, then you unlock value creation as you described. And then you're like 100x instead of like, oh, we're returning the fund on 2 to 5x. Like the math gets silly, like the Excel spreadsheet breaks.

And do you know why we're gonna do quantum results and 100x and with the heart? Like, let me explain that actually in greater detail. Ah, everyone's like, the world is ending, right? Everyone, everyone's like, the world is ending, but no one understands Why or what? They don't have a clear vision, unlike I have the vision, right? So yes, the world is ending, but a new one is being born.

Yes, good. Hey, hear, hear on that one. Like, yeah, enjoy your fear, but anyways, we're over here. Come on over, it's funner.

Yeah, so when you use your heart, you can actually feel into the pockets where that birth is happening. And then you can use your brain and be like, let's create like sharpness, let's create the best products and services that are gonna service this emerging like shift.

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Like all you're really talking about is a tuning fork that you're pointing out into the market and you're just Your vibe— you— the vibration of the tuning fork is different than everybody else in order to get on the same wavelength and connect. And that's how you're able to connect. And then you can start to rationalize it. And that's a differentiator because you can see things that other people can't see because you're using different types of lenses on your glasses, for lack of a better analogy. And so you can see in infrared where everyone else is just seeing like color and you just flip them and no, the AR, the Apple AR glasses aren't gonna let you see this any better, nor is ChatGPT, I think. But I don't know, maybe.

Yeah.

So this is, so this is fascinating. Okay, so we're about out of time and I gotta run because I got some other stuff going. But here's, here's the thing I want to ask you in like, let's say the last 5 minutes is At the end of all of this, where is your mindset right now? Like, what is the— I don't know how I say this. I don't want to quite put it as like, what is the primary challenge that you're facing? But like, what is the output after struggling through all of these things over and over again? What is maybe the key unlock? that you're thinking about? Or do you know where I'm headed with this? Like, what's the output of all these inputs that you're getting? Where, where are you pointed right now? What are you feeling?

Yeah, so basically, um, we create the design for the new industries. I have a clear design for a holistic, preventative, decentralized healthcare system, education system, system, food systems, media, entertainment, and social media and news systems, circular economy and sustainability solutions. And I created, I created this design based on all of my wisdom, experience, life experience. I, when I— that was my hypothesis for Female Founders Lab. Are there founders who will fit into this design? And there were. And okay, are these founders good enough to be multi-unicorn ventures, and they are. And that's what I've validated over the last, like, 3 years. And that's why I'm so confident raising, raising the New Earth Fund, right? But the thing is, like, in order to create a new industry, in order to say, like, we're gonna birth new industries, right? That's, like, no joke. So that, that will require billions of dollars.

Right.

So how exciting would it be to start with a venture fund, but then like, what does a true multi-stakeholder capital and resourcing ecosystem look like to create, to bring these industries to life? And I think that's going to be super fun to chew on as I go through this venture capital journey.

Yeah, it sounded like what you did first was you created your thesis for each of the industries and how that's gonna evolve over time. And then you actually found founders already working on these things that just plugged into those really neatly. And then you're like, oh well, there's actually a there there. And then it's just starting to allocate capital across the board. And so just get the engine starting at the core, most basic level on each one of these. And then The other thing is how they all connect together and then having some of that value creation captured by the LPs and all the participants in the network itself.

Correct. And then question 2 over the long run is how do we unlock trillions of dollars for system change in every country around the world? And that would require unlocking capital flow from retail investors at Scale in a way where the capital is no longer locked up with just in these pension funds and QLP groups. But that would be a crazy thing to take on. I'm not taking that on right now.

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, it makes sense. It's like, if I'm paying a healthcare premium every month, and it's ridiculously expensive, why doesn't that give me some piece of ownership in the thing that I'm putting money into? Like, duh. Like this, This isn't rocket science. Like, hey, paying your healthcare premium, you do it with us instead of GEICO or whomever. Like, now you own a piece. It's like, well, which one am I gonna choose? Well, probably the one where I own a piece and I'm gonna tell my friends about it.

Like, that's very direct. I like that.

It's just, it's human behavior. It's like, wait, I get 1 plus 1 is 2? Okay. Like, it's a cost turned into like a return.

Like, and you see this quantum shifts in the industry, like crowdfunding legislation passed Obama, like 2018. I want to say it's like 4 years, 4 years in with crowdfunding. I mean, equity crowdfunding. So you're seeing massive shifts, like in the capital landscape and the industry landscape and with founders. And I'm here for that. I'm here for the intersection of those shifts.

I love it. That's a great, that's a great way to end it. So where I mean, I'll include things in the show notes and everybody, but like, where should they go to talk to you? Like LinkedIn or like your website? Where should people go?

Yeah, I mean, so you can go to my LinkedIn is where I do more content. Otherwise, you can email me at nilima@thefemalefounderslab.com if you want to email me as well.

Okay, so thefemelfounderslab.com?

Yes.

Okay, cool. And then I'll include links to both your LinkedIn and that in the show notes. So People can get in touch and, you know, we'd go save the world a little bit, like make it a better place. Michael Jackson had it right, let's just heal the world a little bit and yeah, make it a better place. I love it.

Yeah, you know what I actually believe is that we're not going to heal the world a little bit. I actually believe that all of these systems and structures are all going to collapse like Babylon, and what will be left is the grounded new designs that we've been working on for 20 years. Or however long it takes for the structure to collapse. And we'll already have been here doing it all the time, and it'll just— everyone will just turn to that.

Yeah, just shift over. Yeah, the major market shift.

So the whole thing can get healed.

Yeah, just, yeah, be ready for it. Build to where the puck is going to be, and that's where it's going to be. So it might just— the duration is a little bit longer, but pensions are 30 years anyways, so that's well within the the standard time frame. Cool. All right, well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for the time. And yeah, I learned a ton of new stuff today, even after us talking for a while. So this has been fascinating. Thank you so much.

I enjoyed this so much. Thanks so much, Sean.

All right, well, I'll, uh, I'll shoot you a link. You can see if anything you want to chop out or edit. Um, I haven't really had any problems with it. And then we can just publish it and we'll be off to the races.

Yep, sounds good.

All right, cool. All right, have a great day and great rest of your week. Happy 2023.

Happy 2023. Okay, all right, we'll talk to you later.

Bye.