Sean Everett talks with Jeff Ringgenberg about his work in recruitment tech, early bets on Ethereum and Bitcoin, and how media consumption shapes attention and decision-making. They discuss Disney trip logistics, Web3 projects like MFers, and why soft skills matter more than transactional networking.
Chapters
Hey, buddy, how you doing?
Good, man. Good to see you.
Yeah, I got— I got— what's that?
I was gonna say, no Chili Peppers shirt today, just the lighthouse.
The lighthouse is another one that, uh, that Lauren gave me, my wife. So gotta wear them. I like them. She gets— she gets me the stylish stuff, so I wear it. And, uh, here we are.
Nice. I love it. Yeah, is this the home office we find you— we find you in today?
This is the home office. Yep. Uh, so very fancy. Yeah, and, uh, I did, did my hair up for you today and everything. I didn't know when coming on, I thought that you'd give me a second to talk to you, you know, without going live. And all of a sudden I see the camera's on, like, oh boy, here we go. So welcome.
No, the, the live thing, I'm just testing. It's unlisted, so nobody's like tuning in live. We're just gonna do on-demand, old school, and chop it up, edit it later. So I just wanted to play around with it and see See what happens. So how it works. Yeah, man, I see the, uh, you got your MFers mug. Web3 in the building.
Cheers. It's what— it's what— it's my every— it's my daily cup. It's, uh, it's what I use now. So it's— I get disappointed when I— when it's not clean, I don't get to use it. For some reason it makes me happy. It brings me joy.
That's the go-to, huh? So the coffee cup was what, like $20? And how much was the token? I—
the, uh, yeah, right. Uh, so the coffee mug was a pre— was a gift from a fellow MF friend. Um, so he, uh, he knew that I owned it. And one day I got this box, I opened it up and see it, I'm like, how did— how did I get this? Like, I didn't— you know, it wasn't like an airdrop type of thing where it's like a free gift for getting the NFT. It was, um, It was just a friend that sent it. I'm like, did you happen to send this mug to me? And of course it was. So, uh, yeah, I can't reveal names because this is, uh, total anonymous, right?
So is that the friend that I know of?
It is the friend that you know of, yes.
Okay. Yeah, I know the name. It's in my brain. But yeah, yeah, words shall not be spoken.
Thank you. Uh, yeah, so it's, uh, yeah, it's pretty, pretty cool stuff. And, uh, I enjoy the mug. It's, uh, like I said, just brings a little bit of joy to my life. So here we are.
I love it.
I love it. Yeah. What's— tell me about the setup you got over there.
Uh, let's see. We got 4 walls, we got a roof. It's like adulting to the max. It's a house. As you know, we spent years renovating it. Um, and I'm, I'm sick of home improvement. Uh, so it's like a startup. Only in the real world instead of on the internet. So all the same sorts of stuff and fun. But yeah, we're— I know you're headed to Disney too, but headed to Disney in a couple weeks. So hyped about that. Still haven't gotten MagicBands yet. Like, had to call about them and I guess they're waiting to be picked up. So hopefully version 2.0 comes before we head out there.
Yeah.
Because I want haptic feedback on my wrist while I'm experiencing it.
The MagicBand Plus, which just came out, have like interactive stuff with it and all kinds of stuff, like goes to the beat of the music when the fireworks are playing and all kinds of stuff from what I understand. So it's pretty next level tech. So pretty cool stuff.
Yeah, I'm hyped. I want to see the 50th anniversary stuff because the gold statues and there's some interactivity with that, which should be pretty cool. And I guess you said they extended it till like March 2023 from November, so that's cool. And I want to go back over Christmas because I really want to see Disney over the Christmas time period.
You, um, you have more disposable income than I do because it's, uh, it's an expensive trip and I don't think I'll be going back for a couple years after this one. So it's, uh, it's intense and it's complicated. Like, my wife is like keeping spreadsheets of like all the rides and the height limits for each ride, so You know, we've got a 3-year-old and a 6-year-old, and so we're, you know, gotta make sure that they can go on the rides or which ones to go to, because like I don't want to be in the position of like going to a ride and all of a sudden I'm finding out that like they can't go on it because their height. So we're trying to get prepared ahead of time of what we can and cannot go on. So yeah.
Are you gonna do the thing where like you go on an adult ride and the other one stays with one of the kids or both the kids? If the line's short, are you gonna do the Genie+ thing?
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do Genie+ and, um, what's the other, uh, Lightning Pass or something like that?
I forget what it's called.
Yeah, Lightning Lanes. So like, um, we're— I'm still doing a lot of research of like, okay, so how does this work? Because this sounds extremely stressful. Uh, like, it's a lot throughout the day. Like, you know, you're on your app. Uh, it's just, it's a ton of stuff. Like, I understand that the MagicBands help with some of that stuff, like being able to get into your hotel. You don't have to think about a room key, right? Uh, stuff like that. But, um, yeah, like the Lightning Passes and the Genie Pass stuff, like that's, that's a whole nother level of like complexity to it.
Yeah, I remember last year when we got— because I hadn't— I mean, I had been what, maybe once when I was a kid? And like we had gone to Disneyland in California like once or twice just for a day, but Disney World is like extreme. And we got one of those guidebooks. It was like 500 pages, and I'm just like, what? But we're just— obviously there's no kids, so we just kind of were like, all right, we're just gonna pick a park and like a dinner or two and, and then just roam. And luckily, when we went last year, it was during August, and, um, it was right when the pandemic had sort of like kicked up again with the Delta variant.
Mm-hmm.
And so we got a booster before we went, but There was like no crowds. So it was— we— I mean, I remember the Avatar ride, like sometimes it'd be a 2-hour wait and we just walked like all the way through right up to the front, waited like 10 minutes, got on. It was amazing. Like Rise of the Resistance, we were able to go on 3 times. Like that ride, if, if there's no other thing that you do, make sure you book Rise of the Resistance and like—
You go.
At least sat afterwards. I just sat there for a second and I was like, I suck at what I do because like you're the masters. It just blew my hair back, man. It's like the best.
I mean, I, I don't know what I'm getting myself into, um, and you know, just I don't know what to expect. It's been— I think I was maybe 13 or 16, something like that, when I went with family. And like I just don't remember a whole lot from it. Uh, I remember going to Epcot and like doing some stuff there, but I don't remember a lot of the rides. Maybe Splash Mountain, I probably vaguely remember. Um, but like, I think a lot's changed since then, so not to date myself, but, um, yeah, so we'll see. And I, I don't know how the girls are gonna do on some of these like more adult rides. Um, I think they'll be all right, but I have no idea. I think the biggest ride they've been on is like at the state fair so far, so like this is a whole new experience. That's good.
So Well, that's the cool thing about Disney. It's not like Six Flags where they're trying to flip you upside down and go 100 miles per hour. It's, yeah, it's built to be family friendly. So you'll, you'll know, like, there's a lot of rides are just like made for the kids. Like Peter Pan is awesome.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, it's super chill.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I, I'm terrified but excited, let's put it that way. Like, I'm terrified from like, again, small children, uh, huge park, like A lot of walking all day long. I'm getting in shape right now just so I can make sure I can make it through the 12 miles a day or whatever it's gonna end up being. You know, we'll see if we're close to— we're gonna stay at the Polynesian. At least that's what we're thinking of. That's probably where we end up staying. We have it booked and all that stuff, but we're trying to decide like, you know, is this worth the whatever it is, $8,000 or something like that? It's ridiculous.
Yeah.
So trying to figure out like, you know, do we wanna do that or do we wanna go to a less expensive hotel and then maybe come back again next year, right? Yeah. But the reason why we chose it is because convenience factor. Like, we could go back to the hotel midday, get a nap in with the kids, like all that kind of stuff. Um, so we're still debating. We still have a couple more months we can change it if we need to, but I think that's probably what we'll end up doing is Polynesian, bring it back for a nap, and then we can go see the fireworks and all that stuff at night.
So yeah. I think it's— I think that's honestly the best approach. I mean, do it once because I have a feeling Like, you'll go back again. At least this way you'll know, because they have the Skyliners that run right through the Polynesian and then go right to a couple parks. It makes it super convenient. Um, which, yeah, if the kids start having a, you know, breakdown, it's easier, less stressful to just go back and kick them.
Which they will have a breakdown, it's just a matter of how many.
So is this a daily thing, or is it like, like God's drop of chaos, just completely random? It's either lack of sleep or lack of food.
It's one of the two. So you don't have enough sleep, don't have enough food. Yeah, well, hangry. Hangry is a real thing, especially for kids. So yeah, we'll, uh, we'll get through it. It'll be fun. It'll be a great time. It's just, uh, the nerves are still there because I just don't know what I'm getting myself into. But it'll be, it'll be a fun time.
Yeah, you'll be all right. It'll be fun. It'll be good. Yeah, once you get there and get into the swing of things, they do the good— yeah, everything feels good. It's all super friendly. It's nice.
Yeah, it's, um, it'll be a change of pace from like— we go to Michigan every summer and like up there it's very much go at your own pace. So like we go knowing that we're gonna spend a lot of time at the pool, we might go to the beach, but like it's not like a you got to be here at X time and if you don't make it then like you're out of luck. And so like this is just— it's gonna, it's gonna be a lot more structured of a vacation versus Michigan where it's just like go to fly by the seat of our pants and that's about it. Gotta make it to a parade and that's like the only thing that we like, you know, have to plan for a little bit. But like for the most part, it's no schedule whatsoever. So this would be a little change of pace for sure.
Yeah, that's interesting. Well, just try to— I mean, you could do Disney any way you want. I mean, just try to take it that way. I mean, that's what we do. There's some people— I mean, some people get off on it like that, plan down to the second and Yeah, yeah, I'm just kind of like, let's just go where the vibe takes us and whatever, because then it's like it just takes a lot of stress away. But I get it, like it's different when you've got like kids and you buy tickets for certain things and you have to hit this time slot. Yeah.
It'll be a fun time, man. I'm, I'm excited. I love Disney, right? I know all the stuff, so it'll be a good time. I, I don't— what's sad is I, I don't know a lot of the Marvel stuff. Like, I know enough But like, I, I haven't like dove really deep into it because my kids just aren't there yet.
Right.
And so like most of the stuff that we watch is all the little kid shows, which are great, don't get me wrong. But like, you know, you think me being in my 40s and like having Marvel around for as long as I have, like I just, I didn't get into it as much as a lot of my buddies did. So I gotta start to venture over into that direction now that I'm, you know, kids are getting a little older. I'm gonna start to pull them along for the ride, all that stuff. But I mean, it's like choose your own adventure no matter when you start at this point.
So Have you, have you not seen like Avengers and the big ones?
Yeah, I, I've seen, I've seen them, but like I haven't seen— I can't remember which ones I haven't seen. Um, there's some of them that I haven't gotten into, like is it the Hornet or Wasp or something like that?
Yeah, I haven't even gone that deep.
Like there's, there's— and then like I haven't seen, uh, Wanda yet. Um, I haven't seen some of Mandalorian— well, not Mandalorian, but, um What's the, uh, the other one that's on Disney? Um, yeah, like, oh gosh, yeah, the TV shows. I haven't gotten in any of the TV shows. So like, um, what's Thor's brother's name? I forget his name, blanking right now.
The which one?
Um, Thor's brother.
Oh, uh, Loki.
Yeah, Loki. Uh, so I haven't watched Loki yet. I think there's a lot of those. Yeah, so like, I think I've seen maybe 2 episodes, but I never like got deep into it. So, so yeah, I got some work to do. I got some homework at some point. So, I mean, you started your career in Hollywood, like, does that, that, uh, MySpace casting. Sometimes when you, uh, when you go through the motions, it's not what you expect it to be, and, uh, you kind of lose your love for it at some point. So that was part of it for me. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I definitely, you know, went through the, the whole agency stuff and learned a lot. Um, met a lot of people. It was cool from an energy standpoint, like, you know, being able to read scripts and stuff like that before they came to fruition into a film. I really enjoyed that. And just the whole moviemaking experience and process is really cool. But it's, you know, high stress, high paced. Just, you know, at that time in my life, I was so stressed all the time. And it wasn't good from a physical or mental health perspective. And I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing, right? I was 23. So, so just, you know, bad timing for me. But it was, you know, it's still a cool experience and able to always look back at some of the neat stuff that I was able to do. Um, but yeah, it's just, uh, after that I didn't watch film the same way. Um, now I, you know, I still enjoy all that, but just it's a different lens that I'm looking through it, I guess.
Is it, uh, how do you compare the speed and stress to tech, like Hollywood moviemaking versus software startups?
I mean, it's hard for me to say because I work on such a small team, so I'm not working, you know, Facebook or, you know, some of the, the big, um, companies that are out there. So like Our team is 10 people, right? So—
Magic size.
It's a nice size. And, you know, we're based in Indianapolis. We're building, you know, software that's not like, it's not consumer-facing type of stuff. So like, it's a little bit different. I guess the one side of it is, but the software itself is not like, it's more email deployments and more notification stuff that's consumer-based, like job alerts. So it's a recruitment CRM. So like, it's, It's stuff that is, uh, a little bit less out of— it's out of the spotlight as much, so it's, uh, it's not as cutthroat, I guess. Um, which, you know, again, 2 small children, it's great. Um, from a work-life balance and stuff like that, like, I'm able to spend time with the kids, and that's what's most important to me these days. So yeah, so yeah, we— you got your dog there, I can tell.
Yeah, he, uh, we'll see if he jumps on the couch later. He just rammed his head into the door and came to get his scratchies, so It's he is the he is the 100% guest on every episode. He's around here somewhere.
Which one is this Brooklyn?
Yeah, this is Brooklyn. Brooklyn, you want to come up? Oh, there we go. Can you see him? Hi, buddy. Yeah, there we go. You're famous now. Okay, buddy. Say hi to Jeff. Uncle Jeff.
Hey, Brooklyn. What's up, buddy?
Oh, there we go. All right. Yeah, buddy. Cool. So yeah, anyways, how about that Web3 stuff? Went really, really hard, really fast. I mean, you were actually kind of the person that got me a little bit back into it. I mean, I'd been, you know, sort of had my finger on the pulse since years and years ago, but it kicked up and yeah, interesting. I mean, our, our mutual friend there, Did he kind of get you into it? How did you sort of cross over the transom? Yeah.
I don't know what made me take the red pill. It was— gosh, what was it? I mean, I had been buying some Ethereum and some Bitcoin back in 2018, I think. And that, and I just, you know, bought it, held it, didn't do anything with it. Um, and then 2021 rolled around and I don't know if I just started to read some stuff about NFTs or what it was, but I remember one tweet. This is what got me kind of buying my first one. And this is what I pulled you into, which I apologize for because we just got rugged essentially. Um, but it was like, it was a tweet that I saw a guy talking about this, you know, this minting that's happening with this like Enlightened Owls.
Oh yeah.
And I'm like, these owls are— they're kind of cool designs. Like, I can get down with that. Some wisdom there. Like, it's, it's some fun stuff. So I just, you know, whatever, for whatever reason, I was like, all right, I'll figure this stuff out. Um, so just, you know, got the MetaMask set up, all that kind of stuff, and pulled the trigger on that particular project. Um, I think I bought 2 of those. and basically just got rugged. I mean, they were gone. They were around for a short bit, but they jumped out like maybe after a month, um, with that, right after saying that they had like new big plans that they're going to come out with, just kind of like went away and ghosted everyone. So like, you know, learned that, uh, on a couple different projects. But what kind of got me big into it was, um, the MFers one. So like, I, I, and I saw it on mint day and I was gonna pick it up and like these are, these are so like, they're so cool, but like there, there's not a lot to them. It's very minimalistic in terms of what it was. And then I just, and a lot of it was the content that I saw getting pushed out. Like it just made me laugh. Um, a lot of just stupid humor. Um, and it had me rolling. A lot of good GIFs, a lot of just stupid videos. And I don't know, for whatever reason, I bought it at, forget what it was at. Um, like point 0.08 or something like that. I forget what it was at, but it was fairly early on and then watched it fly up. I think it was the floor eventually got up to about 10,000 and then it just came crashing back down. I still get offers every once in a while, but it's definitely slow and a lot lower than it once was. But I got into it more so on Tezos, much more the generative art stuff.
Yeah.
That I just saw as a really just cool medium. Like, I just love the artistic side of it. Um, I love how, you know, the, the artwork could be used both physically and digitally. Like, I've got a lot of friends— I've started to explore a little bit more of just printing stuff out and then having it, you know, hanging in your room, in your room and your house, because it's like, looks cool, it's nice art.
Yeah.
So like, there's that physical aspect mixed with the digital aspect that was just kind of neat with it. Yeah, I can do that with, you know, the PFPs that I own, but like, to me, it's I just preferred some of the generative art stuff. It's just like you got in the background there, you got some abstract art. Like, it just, it spoke to me a little bit more. So I think there's some cool stuff going on on that chain. Played around on Solana a little bit, but nothing like, just, it didn't, didn't like get me as much as Ethereum and Tezos did. So, so yeah, I mean, that's just, I don't really know what I'm doing in there, right? I'm just kind of like learning here and there and immediately like fall, kind of like dropped off a little bit over the down cycle here. You can pick stuff up, but who knows what's going to happen, right? It could just continue to drop or it could come back. I think the question I have on my mind is the halving in 2024 for Bitcoin, how is that going to change things? And of course, the new Ethereum is a big deal as well. The merge.
Merge.
Yes. So I mean, I watch it, but I'm not as active as I was in just buying a bunch of NFTs. And that was just Probably like my behavior is erratic because I'm that's just my personality. So like I I got very obsessed on it for a bit, and it was like all right let's dive right in. And then it was like well this is starting to go down maybe this isn't the best investment right now. So just kind of like pull back the reins a little bit watching it but still holding. I almost said hodling because I'm used to saying hodling instead of holding these days. But yes. I am hodling, huddling.
Um, yeah, the, the Enlightened Owls is interesting because it was a precursor to Moonbirds, which was like number 1 on OpenSea right next to Bored Ape for a long time. I think I just looked, they're back down now. Um, let's see, what are they? Uh, I lost it. They're like 25-ish or something. But yeah, I think, um, Yeah, I think it's an interesting hypothesis test and case study to look at sort of human behavior with these things. And I agree with you on the generative art. I think, you know, it's not just an image with a price point that goes up and down. I think it's just because us as humans are such visual creatures, that's the way we engage with technology. But then the people behind the scenes that are writing the code Like really understand that what's really behind here is like a computer where the only interface is just a static image. But just like the web, I mean, you could have an entire SaaS app, a complete app living inside an NFT and duplicated across computers all over the world stored on everyone's phone. Like AWS times HubSpot times Apple stock, which is super interesting because basically the way I see this is you basically have a new media format that's combining all these other formats. So all you really did was add like a new business model to media, really. So like media businesses, software startups in the future, I think SaaS apps are going to be free. You know, like maybe everything just gets distributed through, through the blockchain and, and a wallet. And it's your login, it's your payment mechanism, it's your investment platform. And it just aggregates up all of the demand and all the different media assets. And then it becomes part of your inventory bag. And that's just like your personal net worth and all that stuff. But obviously, it's so early. I mean, it's just if you delve into any of the, any of the people working in the space. It's just pure infrastructure. It's like '90s web where you're building out. It took millions of dollars to build the first e-commerce shopping cart, you know, or like hundreds of dollars for a server. We're at that stage.
Well, and, and you are far more knowledgeable and have a lot more experience than I do about, you know, especially the infrastructure and architecture side of things. I'm looking at this primarily from a consumer standpoint when it comes to a lot of this stuff is just playing with it and seeing what makes sense. The UI is awful. The experience is really pretty poor these days. So it's a convoluted mess in trying to figure out what you're supposed to be doing.
Yeah.
So I think that there's a lot of room for improvement and growth and that it's not going to hit the adoption until it starts to fix some of those problems and just belief in it. I think that's the biggest and hardest challenge is getting people to believe that like that is the direction that we're going in. Um, so I tend to believe that it is, but I could be completely wrong, right? So, um, we'll see what happens.
Yeah, I'm working on a project right now which is super interesting because we're at that place where you have to— from a product perspective, you have to account for both Web2 and Web3 users when you log in, sign up. and when you pay. And so you need to provide all of those options across the board. And that's really interesting because it's like bridge building right now between the two worlds. So, you know, I have no doubt. I mean, you don't get like a trillion-dollar industry that just shows up overnight very often. In fact, almost never.
Yeah.
And it's still around. I think really what happened is all of the hype You know, you pop the balloon and all the hype goes away and then what you're left with is like the intrinsic value of what's there.
Sure.
And so sure, hype was 50%, but there's still a ton of intrinsic value there because of the way it's being built. And guess what? Who are the people that are most engaged with it? Like engineers. And what do engineers do? Build stuff. And do they ever stop? No, because it's built into their base DNA. So just give it time, it'll be good.
Yeah, I mean, um, you know, you look back in the early days of the stock market and, I mean, automobile industry, right? I can't remember how many, uh, it was, it was some ridiculous— how many automakers there once was in the early days of that industry. Like, that very much came down to basically 3 companies at some point, right? So, um, I think that during this time we're gonna see a lot of shedding of, you know, projects and of companies and That's part of the natural progression, but there's definitely going to be the beasts that survive, right? So it'll be interesting to see what happens and shakes out over the next couple of years.
Yeah, I'm with you. So I have a question for you.
So shifting gears.
Shifting gears. Actually, I have to pay you a compliment. I want to see— I already know what your response is going to be, but I think— and I'll tell you why beforehand. I think you're actually one of the best relationship people I've ever met in business, period, bar none. And you always say, no, no, no, that's BS, like get out of here, Everett. But no, seriously, I think that because it's such a soft skill and I think a lot of people in the relationship area are just there to like grab your money. And like screw you over, and like it doesn't matter. It's just pure transactional, like gimme, gimme, gimme, pull the lever on the like cash machine, right? And I think the difference with you is that you actually give a shit about the people more than the money and the bit. I mean, the business, of course, like it has to be there. You know, you've got a business to run. You got to pay the bills. But I it just reminds me of the old book. I mean, it's not like you're doing this on purpose. Maybe you are, you tell me. But the, you know, the Dale Carnegie, the Dale Carnegie book, like How to Win Friends and Influence People, it's like the main premise of that is like genuine interest in other people and it just creates likability. So I think, you know, you've never accepted it as like one of your superpowers, but I think it, I think it really is. And I think as you like lean into that over the next whatever, 10, 20, 50, 100 years, because you never know, we might live forever. Um, yeah, I think some interesting shit could happen.
Yeah. Uh, well, thank you. I'm, uh, yeah, that's a huge compliment, so I appreciate that. Um, yeah, I think, um, I'm trying to process, um, the compliment because it's like I don't, I don't believe in that, right, for myself. Uh, as much as I wish I could. Um, I, you know, I think that There's been multiple jobs and kind of my path has been very like nonlinear. And so a lot of the relationships I made, it's like, they're great people. I enjoy them. I enjoy the company, all this stuff, but then I shifted into a completely different industry and it's hard or it has been hard for me to really keep in touch with a lot of those people. So, and I, you know, I, I could probably rattle off of like ways that maybe we could reconnect and do business together or something like that, but like, It would be a far stretch. And so like, I have a hard time of like keeping in touch with people over the years. Plus I bounced around a lot of different cities too. So it's, it's harder when you move from state to state and you're not in the same location as those people that you once were. Um, but you know, I think on, on kind of agreeing with you is that like, uh, have you ever done Enneagram? I think you have. Yeah, we've talked about that in the past.
Yeah, I did once. Yeah, a friend did it.
I, I, so I'm an enthusiast. Don't get into the numbers. I need to go back and refresh my understanding and knowledge of it. But enthusiast is very much that. It's like the very charismatic and personal, friendly type of person. So, you know, I guess on that side of things, it would align with your kind of vantage point of me, I guess. I do think that I am a nice and kind individual. So I like to think of myself as, you know, kindness is definitely something that like I strive for. You know, have I failed at that many times over the years? Absolutely. But, you know, and did alcohol have anything to do with any of those times where I was unkind? Probably. So like, you know, I've learned a few lessons along the way of like, you know, what does kindness really look like and what do you need to do to really get there and to maintain it every single day? So I do see that in myself, but like the business side of it, Yeah. I don't have the same business acumen as you do, right? So that is something that I have always struggled with is my confidence in my own abilities when it comes to business and transactional dealings and stuff like that. Confrontation, I just shy away from confrontation. It's not the fight or flight, man. I'm sadly right now, I'm not a fight guy.
Yeah.
So That's, that makes some of the negotiation stuff a little challenging for me. Makes a lot of the, you know, the difficult conversations challenging for me. I've gotten better at it. Like project management, you have to have difficult conversations, right? So like, I've gotten better at it with practice, but like, it's still not something that comes naturally easy for me.
Well, let me, let me change your perspective for a second and see, see if this hits, right? Because it's hard to see yourself or know thyself. So you said you didn't have very good business acumen, but let's, let's peel this back for a second. So you've lived in a bunch of different cities, you've worked in a bunch of different cities, you've made relationships, friendships in a bunch of different cities. So different markets, check.
Yep.
All right, how many different industries have you worked in? Hollywood and entertainment, real estate, like Not residential, commercial real estate. Let's see, technology, like very early emerging tech technology, right? Like even big name startups that like back in the Daily Deals days, right? So there's 3 right there that I can just rattle off. And then let's talk about expertise, right?
So you forgot a couple, hospitality and healthcare.
Fuck. Okay. Okay, so let's say 5 different markets, more like probably 8 or 10, 5 different industries. How many different skills and roles? So like casting, um, like commercial real estate deals, which involves finance, right?
Brokerage.
Brokerage, right? Okay, so now we've got sales, um, we've got relationships, we've got project management. We've got agency owner. You've got, let's see, marketing. Let's see, you've got product management. Like, so if you say like, I actually don't believe you now, like some stranger meeting you is like, well, this guy just seems to be able to do it all. Can't believe that he does it all.
Yeah.
So I don't know. I think you maybe need to rethink. I think you need to put it down on a whiteboard and go, hmm, actually maybe Maybe I got a skill or two rattling around up there.
I, I have experiences. I think, uh, where my confidence lacks is hard skills like trades and things like that. Like, I, you know, like manufacturing of— Like, well, so, so like, you know, a hard skill to me is, um, something that you can do, you know, and make money just doing just that one thing, right? Like, so my buddy's an electrician. He can make money just from being an electrician going to, you know, his next-door neighbor or whatever. Like, he can do this skill. Yes, you need licensing and stuff like that to be able to do that, but it's a hard skill. Um, sales is not really like— I don't look at that as much as a hard skill, um, as something else. Like, yeah, I guess it probably could be, but I also don't have the stomach for it. Like, sales is hard.
Yeah.
Like, you know, you got— you gotta have a certain temperament and a certain personality type to be able to do sales. Marketing. Yes, I can do marketing. That is something that, you know, the creative side of it, especially the execution though, has changed drastically over the years. And if you have that technical acumen, you can definitely have a leg up on that. So like, I could do that, but like, it would take me some time to like figure out, you know, a certain channel or a certain technology to be able to implement some of the marketing stuff. But yeah, you're right, like relationship stuff is always gonna, you know, be there. Um, when I think about like the different industries and stuff like that I worked in, it's in the different jobs I should say that worked in, it always came down to like 3 things. It came down to, um, really the, the industry itself, so the vertical, and each vertical that you're in has different players that are in that, that particular industry. So as long as you know who the players are, You're good with that. You understand the process that is in place. And so, you know, for each industry it's a little different, but they're all— there's a lot of similarities in the process across different industries. And then 3 would be the kind of what I call the rules of engagement, because every industry is a little bit different. Some industries are all about the phones, other industries they don't touch the phone. Some, you know, industries like now, I don't touch email, right? Like I'm in Slack all day long.
Yeah.
So like, you know, it's just the rules of engagement are very different. There's very political environments or very nonpolitical environments. You know, the way that you talk to your boss in one particular— and this may be just individual jobs, but I would say industries as a whole have a certain energy about them. And there's rules of engagement that are varying based upon the industry that you're in.
Yeah.
I would not be able to do in entertainment what I do in technology now. Like, it just, it just wouldn't work because the process is different. The rules of engagement are vastly different.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that, but, uh, just some, some thoughts around the different stuff.
I think I've just come to realize that I think the name for it is just product management because honestly, like you spit your coffee out, but literally I read. So here's an example, like across my desk, I get probably depending on how hot the market is, 2 to 3 to 10 to 15 product management opportunities every day. And I skim through the title, I read through like a little bit of the description and I've obviously worked in this space for a long, long time actually executing on these things. And like I did an episode on this for like 2 minutes because the answer is like, what is product management? It's everything. It's freaking everything. Like the expectation and the requirement from the market is, oh yeah, just, yeah, add that. And it's basically like, you've gotta be excellent at everything all the time, which is like ridiculous. Like name another, other than a business owner, name another role where you have to pull on all of these skills. I mean, I can almost guarantee you that over the last year you've pulled on probably every skill that you have at some point or another. Maybe not in your interest time, like even Web3. I mean, like in your interest, like your free time, you're just like messing around with Web3. Like what?
Yeah. I also would say with product management that the role is very ambiguous. And so it's like, it's hard to really know like what is exactly what you need to do each and every day changes by second. So like, you know, whether or not you're supposed to be helping by, you know, aligning the Product marketing with the product that you're building, making sure that, you know, the sales team has updates on things, making sure that you've got all their ticket management and stuff in order so that developers actually know what they're supposed to be doing each week, making sure that it's, it's understood by the development team, like, what those tickets actually mean. So, like, articulating the right way so they understand what needs to be built. I mean, there's just so many different things that go into the role that it makes it hard to really know what to prioritize some days, right? That, at least for me, that's definitely been a challenge is like what needs to come first. And I think, you know, I look at just building the product the way it needs to be built. So understanding the roadmap is the top priority to me.
Mm-hmm.
You know, sales, for instance, like sales team, I want them to know we gotta sell this thing, right? We gotta make revenue on this. So like, you know, that's top priority is making sure that, You're monetizing it and getting that willingness to pay. But like giving the updates to the sales team to me right now is not priority because it's, we got to get a couple of features in before we can increase the value of the product to the consumers and to its users. I mean, so like, you know, it's just, you got to prioritize some of these things. It's hard some days.
Yeah. It's like, it's like playing Jenga a little bit. Like you got to keep building, but you need to, it's just like this constant Like, keep everything in balance is really how it is. It's just like, ultimately, the longer I've done it, the more it just comes down to feel. Like, you've trained all the little, like, nuanced prioritization mechanics, and it's ultimately at the end of all of this, it just comes down to, like, pure tuning fork.
Hmm.
Like, I, I think that's, like, beyond master level into, like, magician level. It's just pure tuning fork. Because you can get rid of everything. And if you drop something out into the market, do people like, like clamor around it? You know, it's like, it's like basically the day— or, uh, what is it? It's like the Thanksgiving Day sale back in the day when people used to rush into Walmart to get an HDTV for like $200 or something. It's like that kind of thing. Like, and everything else is just in service of that.
Yeah.
And that's it. And it's just different in different markets, of course, and not every, every release is gonna be Thanksgiving Day. But, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's— business is a weird, wild, woolly sport, and it just— everything changes all the time, forever and ever.
Well, I, I, you know, I think you made me think of, uh, a way that I can, um, kind of pay you a compliment, which is, um, You are a master at 2 things. One is the analogies, like making far analogies between things that just don't seem like they connect. I don't know how you do it, but you're like, oh yeah, well, that's because this over here is doing this and this over here is doing that. So they obviously work together. I'm like, I don't see that as being obvious at all, but it makes sense. It's not obvious.
That's one.
And then 2, your ability to multitask. I don't know how you multitask, but like you are always juggling like 1,000 different things at once and somehow just like magically make it work and work really well. And I just don't, I don't know how you do that. Cause I can't, I've got too much ADD going on. I can't, can't keep focused on any of that stuff.
You know what the secret is?
What?
It's Command+Tab. Or on the, on the Windows machine, it'd be Alt+Tab.
But it's—
but that's true. Like, this is actually something I'm trying to work on as I get older, because you find you get into this very— especially in product, it becomes very difficult because you have so many things coming in and pulling at you from so many different areas and departments that you get into this constant, like, cycle, Command+Tab between apps and people and things and priorities and tasks. that you can literally lose the forest through the trees and your focus, and you become like manic. Like you're just constantly shifting because you need to be responsive, you need to answer questions. And I've gotten to the point where I'll just start blocking out time or like put on do not disturb so I can get out of that mindset, because focus, deep focus, is so important to like invention and creation that you need that time to get lost in the flow state. And there's nothing if not notification bells and whistles that will interrupt your flow state. And I think I saw recently it takes like 15 or 20 minutes for you to get into it. So, you know, I mean, that basically means nobody in America at least is in any kind of flow state ever. Like the whole country is just like manic. We're just like caffeine and like vibrating at the surface level.
It's a problem. I mean, so my wife and I don't really like the show Not Lulu Kids, but with Cocomelon. So like, have you ever watched Cocomelon? You can see that they change the frame every 3 seconds. So like the kids, they're not focused on one screen for very long at all because it's constantly shifting and changing. So I, you know, as a parent, I start to wonder like, how's that gonna affect their like attention span long-term?
Yeah.
Or even like, I think about decision fatigue with Netflix. There's so many things that they have to choose from. They'll sit there and just look through everything for 10 minutes before they find something that they will actually want to watch right then and there. So like, I think about what is the long-term effects of decision fatigue for them? Like, it's just, there's a lot of stuff with the way that media is created and distributed right now that like makes me question the health, like mental and emotional health that it's going to have on our kids. I never, never thought about this stuff when I was growing up, but like now as a parent, starting to think about it.
Yeah. It's so true. I mean, it is a direct result of the media. I mean, even like YouTube, Instagram going into the short-form video content.
Yeah.
Like what is, I mean, you can only get so short, like one frame is essentially just an image, just literally image, image, image, image, image, one after another. And TikTok is the new, it's 1,000 channels with nothing on and the clicker instead of the remote is just a swipe on your phone, like your phone's become a remote. Like instead of tapping, I'm now just swiping and that's it. So what's the endgame? Here's my question. Does the pendulum swing back the other way to like books? Because I agree with you, I've read these studies, um, where just the attention span of like younger generations just can't sit through an entire 2-hour movie. Even like people our age anymore, it becomes difficult because of like 24/7, you're always on, you're on the internet, you just get used to this like dopamine drip over and over. And so I don't know, because at some point you reach the cognitive limit. And like I was talking with this other guy in the last episode, Shannon limit, how many bits you can take into your brain, it's like 41 bits a second or something, which isn't very much. So, so much is just bouncing off. So here's the question, does the pendulum swing back the other way? Or does it just stay in this like super high vibration state for years, forever?
I, I think it could go 2 ways. So like something that like I've gotten better at but still struggle with is my own addiction to my own phone and watching like that play out with my kids, especially my 6-year-old who has said like, you know, Daddy, um, I wish that you'd play with me instead of be on your phone. Like I've heard her say it before, right? And so like, you know, does that make her as she gets older, you know, have this like distaste for phones?
Yeah.
And like not wanting anything to do with the technology because it, you know, disrupted her childhood? Or is she gonna, you know, pick up a phone one day and just get just as addicted as I am and everyone else? Um, so I think you go both ways. Now that is something like, um, I have— I, I say that I've got an addiction to my phone, but it's probably gotten a little bit better over the years. Like I used to be like constantly on my phone, constantly checking the notifications, all that kind of stuff. Now I turn off the notifications, don't really pay attention to that. Don't have an Apple Watch anymore because I was getting notifications all the time on that. And yeah, you could turn it off, but that's part of the reason why you want it. Now I will say my wife wants me to get it so that she can actually get in touch with me any time of the day because half the time it's in my phone and my phone is in my pocket.
Yeah.
And I don't see it. I don't know that something's going on. And so I see there's also value in some of these things. So it's like, What's the— what's the balance? What's the balance between it? But I, I definitely see, like, you know, and I— this is not something that is, uh, age-specific. Like, I see, you know, parents, grandparents, like, not engaging with kids because they're on their phones all the time. Like, it's, it's, it's a problem, and I don't know the best way to handle it. It's just, I think individually people have to realize that, like, life is more than just being in your phone all the time.
Yeah, yeah, it's the healthy balance, what works for you. And, uh, you just have to have the awareness of it too. I mean, maybe, maybe they just need to make like a bat phone. It's just, it's like the wife phone or the husband phone or the partner phone, you know. Um, and it's only, it's family member only. But yeah, I think, I don't know, I just feel like it's never gonna quite go away. It's sort of like when newspapers were invented, like they didn't go away because a new media format or distribution method was invented. Still got radio, still got newspapers, still got books, still going strong, still got TV, like still using email, which is ancient in the web, but people still have email.
I'll use it. Yep.
Yep.
I mean, I don't think it's gonna go anywhere. I don't think it's gonna go anywhere. It may continue to morph, but like You know, there's, uh, there's— I made a prediction a couple years ago that was so far off and so far wrong, which is that we were— that the pendulum was gonna swing and that mobile phones were gonna be like, people are gonna use them less and less and that we're gonna have like this fatigue with it and it's gonna go away. Like, I was so wrong, right? Um, so this is like maybe a year and a half ago that, um, I said like within the next 18 months, uh, it's gonna start to dwindle. Like, here we are 18 months later and it's, you know, mobile is going high. Um, so like, it's not gonna— I think it's gonna be around for a long time. I think the way that we use it is gonna be changing, and that's based upon individual preferences though. And like you said, awareness, but I think it goes beyond awareness. I think it's also like, do you wanna change that, those behaviors? Uh, so like kind of a willingness to change.
Yeah. So no, that's interesting. I mean, you just maybe have the wrong time period. on your prediction, because I, I think these things like habits that are so well ingrained, it's sort of like the whole social networking thing and the backlash against Facebook and all of that. I mean, there was years of it and it hasn't necessarily slowed it down, but I think it brings more awareness to it. So perhaps it's really— it doesn't go away, but the balance becomes healthier over time. Like, to your point. But how— what's that?
So how, how do you change those, those behaviors to be more healthy?
I think it's just— I've been thinking a lot. Okay, I'm gonna tell you something here. So we'll get it— we get into the mental health thing in a minute. We got like 10 minutes. I don't know if you have to go. We can go a little over.
I've got, I've got a 2:30, so I'm good for a little bit.
Okay. Um, actually, I do have to go in 10.
Okay.
Um, So subconscious, I think as I've been going heavier into the media stuff again and testing everything, what I'm kind of sort of surfacing is that you have to be very careful about the content that you engage with, the messaging that you engage with, because it does impact your subconscious. And it's like what you see So for example, you see someone drinking a glass of wine on a show on TV at night, it might trigger something that engages you to be like, oh, maybe I want a glass of wine right now, when you weren't thinking about it before. The content, the type of stuff that you watch, the messaging that gets repeated—
Sure.
Like, say TikTok, you go down one of those algorithm holes and it just keeps getting repeated and reinforced. So those grooves in your mind get reinforced. And so I think there is a sense where you, like, I came with this phrase, like, safe for your subconscious, like content that's safe for your subconscious where you can filter, sort, select, and decide what is okay for you. So maybe that's where this stuff heads in the future. And then same thing with, like, time, right? Like Apple built some of these features into the phone, for example. So I don't know. I wonder if it just becomes a little bit more control than the way we access it and what we deem is acceptable and not acceptable for ourselves and our children and our family. Your thoughts?
I think it's, I think it's interesting. I mean, I, um, you know, TikTok is one of those very— the use case there is fascinating because of the algorithm, right? Um, so like the For You stuff, it just— you, you hit the nail on the head. You can go down this rabbit hole from the algorithm Thankfully right now my algorithm is sending me all kinds of like workout stuff. So like, you know, these are all the exercises that you can be doing. Yeah. So like it makes me like, you know, go down to the basement and my dark hole and get my, my workout on. So like, that's a healthier one. Yeah. But like I haven't had, always had healthier ones. Right. So like, I can definitely see that playing a role like that gets me like pumped and jazzed. The other thing is like, you know, smoking meats. So like, you know.
Yeah.
I get a bunch of stuff about, you know, just food. And like, that's both good and bad because like it does make me hungry. But you know, it's kind of like I'm living vicariously through the videos rather than like diving into some chocolate cake. I'll just watch them make something and kind of savor the taste digitally and never physically. That's interesting. That's a fascinating perspective on the subconscious. Um, I'm sure that there's science out there to back that up too, but I don't know it.
Yeah, just— it's just triggers. So I think to your point, how do you deal with things? The old BJ Fogg model, it's, uh, to creating habits. It was, uh, trigger, action, reward. 1, 2, 3. But so the way you change a habit is same trigger, different action, better reward. So I don't know, let's say, I don't know, I mean, it's like chocolate cake. You use the chocolate cake example, same trigger, you think about chocolate cake, different action. Instead of eating it, you watch the video, different reward. I don't know, like you, you said you savored it digitally and you imagine yourself having that satiation and then you don't have the impact.
Yeah.
I actually saw this one video. This is fascinating. This was from like when I was really deep in TikTok back in early 2019 and trying to figure it out before it blew up in the States. I saw this guy who was hacking his own brain. So he had a bottle of Coca-Cola, he had a plate of chicken wings, and then he had like celery and water. So he would sniff the Coca-Cola, sniff the chicken wing, and then he'd eat celery and drink water.
Interesting.
So he programmed like the smell into the healthier alternative, and then he got full with the healthier alternative. And I was like, that's exactly it.
That's just—
you have it.
Yeah.
So I don't know, maybe we just have apps that help us program, um, ourselves through media based on what we want. So I want to like lose weight, I want to get a little healthier, I want to like lower my blood pressure, I want to like get some more sunshine, you know, I want to be more engaging with my family. Um, here's a bunch of like content that just pounds it into your brain until you just like start doing it and you don't realize you started doing it until afterwards. I don't know, it's, it's worth a shot.
Let me know when you build that, Sean. Yeah, um, we'll see. Yeah, yeah, who knows. Um, oh yeah, I got, I got 5 minutes, so what should we outro?
What should we outro to? We'll do a round 2 because I want to like go deep on mental health stuff because I'm— yeah, I started working on a project and yeah, it's— I think it's super interesting. I think it's the next— it is the ultimate journey into yourself.
Yeah, well, I mean, it's not much of an outro, but like, you know, as you know, like mental health advocacy is important to me. Um, you know, I've been through a lot of stuff, uh, over the years, and so like I've done a lot of hard work in that space, um, just personally, right, from a personal standpoint. Um, and, uh, it's something that, you know, is not going anywhere, you know, especially with COVID We already— sadly, like it took a global pandemic for us to take mental and emotional health seriously. And, you know, we're gonna have a lot of people that have some trauma from that and, you know, still have a lot of trauma from it. But it's, you know, COVID's not really going away. It's still here. May not be, you know, I think we all have fatigue from a mask standpoint and from like, you know, just in general, the pandemic, right?
Yeah.
So I think that mental health is gonna play a huge role in our future. It's just a matter of like, how we can make it a healthier lifestyle, right? And really like take it seriously individually and as a whole. Um, so yeah, I'd love to chat more about that stuff.
Yeah, we'll do, uh, yeah, let's schedule another one and then we'll go deep in that area. Because I was talking to a psychologist who said 2 words to me. She had a guild, and, um, right when the pandemic hit, she's like, okay, we need to protect ourselves. as well, because we're going to be bombarded. They knew it was coming, right? The mental health stuff. And the one thing she told me was 2 words: learned helplessness. Which is interesting. I'm still trying to unpack that, and I need to talk to her again about it. But it was basically like, such big things impact us that we feel we have no control over, like elections, the climate, a global pandemic. That then civil unrest. Yeah, it's basically like, well, I just throw my hands up and I just stop caring or trying, and I don't take control of my own life. It's learned helplessness because of these things. And so it's like, maybe the big, the big unlock is we have to figure out a way to take back control for our own personal lives in a healthy way, in a positive way. Um, anyways, we've Leave us with that, I guess.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for putting up with my hair today, Sean.
It's pretty subdued compared to that picture I saw that one day. That was awesome. It's like Yu-Gi-Oh!
It's my wife continues to try and help me with like, you got to style it a different way because like I had like the, you know, the nice way of like putting it backwards or whatever. And she's like, You gotta, you know, style like Harry Styles, or like, who else is she— who else is she throwing out there that I'm like, uh, keep the magic alive, man. Is it James Patterson or Patterson? Um, yeah, there's a bunch of people that she's throwing in my direction, like, see how he does his hair? You got to do your hair like that. Yeah, this is how it landed. So thank you for putting up with it today. I could have worn a hat.
No, it's good because like it's hard to tell because you have the little like black background right there, the shadows. Yeah, sorry, better light. I need better light. I got the window off the left. There you go. You are— let's—
I'm ready to party.
It's Monday party time. That's right, 1 PM, 2 PM Eastern.
All right, buddy. Well, let's enjoy. I enjoyed this conversation and look forward to the next one. Thanks for having me on.
Sounds good, dude. Appreciate it, brother. Have a great day and love your family.
All right, will do, man. Talk to you later.
