Product-Led Growth featuring Christopher Chin Fong

Buddy, what's going on?

Wait up, I need to put my thing on.

Are your— is your sound quality okay? Can you hear me?

Yeah, my sound quality is baller. I got, uh, the— what's that, the Krisp AI? It like removes all that background music or background noise. It's Beautiful.

Oh yeah, using those AI tools.

Oh yeah, I just signed up for DALL-E and Midjourney, uh, for the artist stuff, and Jared and I, we're coming with like concept art for like Ika Ninja. It's freaking brilliant, dude. It's not there just yet, but it's, it's getting close.

So are you gonna try to put the Ika Ninja stuff through the AI image processors and see what comes out the other side kind of thing?

Not As of now, because I don't think, or at least what's available to the tools that we have, they don't have, uh, the ability to take an image and then like put it into places. I know they are working on other like features to do that, uh, but right now I think we're looking more of like, you know, backgrounds because Jared hates doing that stuff. It's super detailed, time-consuming. Um, it's really, really cool stuff though, man. Like stuff that would take, I mean, the way Jared puts it, like years or, or like, you know, 40 or 50 hours, AI spits out in 50 seconds.

Yeah, yeah, I can send you a link after this to Stable Diffusion. There's a Mac app now that's an easy— it's like a stable build and you can just put it in and it'll spit it out and you just click the button and download the image. So it's super fast and easy.

Yeah, yeah, that's what the other ones are. So I'll definitely check it out. Right, you gotta try it all and see which one works the best.

Yeah, it's interesting. You should also just— I mean, I've been playing around with like some AR ideas.

And yeah, but you—

I feel like what you guys should try is if you're doing the background stuff, just take photos of like New York City or yeah, wherever, just like background photos of real world and just put Ika and all of his friends messing around on like the Empire State Building or something, you know?

Yeah, yeah, no, we were in, uh, what's that, the Caymans the other day, and we stayed by like a place where like all the starfish, uh, kind of like rest. Yeah, so I was like, man, this would be like a really fun picture to like drop that— our little starfish character with— I think I caught like 40 starfish, and you're not supposed to take them out of the water, so you gotta like swim with it all the way to like the shore and just like leave them there. And we have like a body of like awesome amount of like starfish. It was—

That's cool.

It was real cool.

Yeah, what's, what's the Instagram count up to now? You guys like 25K or something?

We're like at 21, but we haven't been posting mostly because, uh, Jared just has an overwhelming amount of work from like his day-to-day job. Yeah. Uh, and I, I totally burned him out because I think when we first started we were able to do one comic a day, um, which is like feasibly impossible for most people.

Um, yeah, with a full-time job too.

Yeah. And then I think his first thing he told me was like, I never want to be a comic artist, and I made him a comic artist for a good 2 years.

We're gonna make you face your fear and your distaste for something, and we're just gonna push you. I mean, let's just not break Jared. What do you feel? What do you think? Let's not break him. He's got, he's got the movie to make, man. Like, I'm still bullish on that which shall not be named, but we know of which we speak.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's gonna come, right? We're gonna make it, uh, come to life one day. It's it has to be done, basically.

Yeah.

We're gonna will its existence, and it's such a great story, um, that it'd be a shame not to tell the world, you know, some of the stuff that's been brewing in his brain. And we're talking about someone who, like, who has some of the best scenes in, like, the Minions movies and in Ice Age and all those great, you know, things that I think children today are really familiar with.

And a lot of the, the best moments come from Jared's brain, and then so excited to hopefully share that Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm just gonna do fundraising from Hollywood or tech or whatever and, you know, bring it all together direct from LPs, like just go around the middleman and just raise the money to do it and just do an exec producer credit or something on it. And although I think, I think it could be like, from my perspective, it's like Star Wars meets Harry Potter, that level.

Yeah.

Of like Epic Quest, Hobbit, but like the feeling where it's approachable like Disney from 2 to 200 years old kind of thing, like infinite market size and it's never gonna go away. And then you do the internet stuff with it and it's like a never-ending story, honestly. And it can creep into your real life with AR. I mean, the possibilities are just endless, honestly.

Yeah.

It's, it's gonna be fun. I mean, just wait, man. Just wait. Stuff is happening. Stuff is brewing. Like you don't even know. We haven't caught up recently.

Yeah, no, it's easy to create content now and then just everything, right? Like I, I was telling Julie the other day that I can probably build a whole company without hiring a person today. And then obviously you'll need to do like a manual check, but I mean, content creates itself now, right? I mean, you take AI and you can run a blog post through an AI and it reformats it. So there's no, there's no duplication. Obviously, you're right, you don't want to take away from that person's hard work. But when you look at that, you know, and if you understand how to market just even a slight bit, like looking at influencers, looking at, you know, Facebook ads or TikTok, you know, you can generate a lot of revenue with like no dollars, quite honestly. And then, you know, the American dream, or just now it's a world dream, like has never been even truer. You know, you can really start from nowhere With no skill sets, teach yourself something under $1,000 and become a millionaire.

Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's distribution to the entire planet which has never existed before and that's just all made possible by the internet. But yeah, it's so true, like business of one. I feel like a lot of people make the mistake of like, let's go raise a ton of money and make a huge company and then they spend all their time dealing with like organizational issues because of the complexity that happens between telephone game Between hundreds, thousands, a million different people in a company. It's like you wanna spend your entire life dealing with that when you could literally just create some content. And I think the other thing about it for me too is that, yeah, I mean, folks like us that are so skilled, been in the game for a long time, like we have the skills to run every department so you can do a business of one. But I think where a lot of the kids, like Gen Z especially, who's like, I don't wanna be an astronaut, I wanna be an influencer. Remember that whole survey? And it's like everybody just wants to be a YouTube star now. I think the real problem is there's no asset behind it. So you're just like being an influencer by going to like this new event and posting photos. Or like, I've seen people post their like manic depressive episodes online. Yeah. There's pushback now on people that are using their own family members' cancer in order to get views, which is really bad because they don't have like a different skill or asset behind their content. And so they just hurt themselves in the long term. And so I think if you have an asset, either that's like a cartoon, it's like a media piece of media, but it's like actual skill. Yeah, right, that like it can be a white paper, whatever it is where you have skill and you're using that. I think that is a big difference between all this stuff and that's, I mean, there's very few where that exists, you know. So I completely agree, man. I think you should just push the pedal to the metal.

Yeah, no, it takes no effort. I mean, not no effort, right? I mean, obviously there's a struggle with starting any business and I think you and I have been there multiple times, you know, down to the last dollar in your bank or or, you know, burning the midnight oil for like 5 nights in a row and then just, you know, running on 2 hours of sleep, um, just to get a thought out into the world. And, you know, obviously there's always that struggle, but you're not talking about putting your whole family's life savings, moving across another country to work in a restaurant after being a doctor. Like, that is the struggle that people will still deal with, and there's always opportunities in another land. But to not have to leave your, your home base, right, where you're, where you're comfortable with, where you have all your Once you can build a very sound fundamental business and then you even look at the US, right? Most of the work is getting outsourced. When you read people who like Dropship or any of that stuff, those types of companies really use resources from the Philippines and from different places. So companies are very remote now. And for someone who has an idea in college, you see children succeed because they just pursue it with passion. And I think that's the big thing is, can you push past your first failure when you hit your first bump? And if you can do that and you can keep your head up for, you know, just long enough, you'll succeed. You know, it's just, it's about doing it enough and not failing the same time over and over again. It's learning from your failures, reposition yourself really quickly as a product person, right? You learned that. you know, you welcome failure because when you welcome failure, you learn where your shortcomings were and you pivot for the next time. You don't make that same mistake again. And eventually you see those metrics tick up, maybe one user more each day, you know, that compounds and eventually all that learning turns into something that, you know, just, it's a boulder that just rolls down the hill. You're no longer pushing it up. And yeah, it's exciting. I think the younger generation have a lot more opportunities that weren't afforded to their parents, even us. And then I'm excited to see what they do. a lot more passionate about being eco-friendly. They're more passionate about politics than our generation was. So I'm hopeful that, that, you know, this group of, um, coming adults will, will take the, uh, the world in a better place than what we've done.

Yeah, yeah, I will say I agree with you. I think it's more balanced. Yeah, everything in balance, you know, like life, spirit, Come on in, puppy.

Coming out. Oh, puppy, the whole time you couldn't hear it because the AI.

Yeah, no, AI. Yeah, yeah, I think it's that balance, right? I mean, you see it with, yeah, everything, like sexuality, political beliefs, like not working to live or living to work, working to live, you know. It's like the quiet quitting. It's like if you're just an a-hole or a butthead, like There's a billion companies and startups. Like, I can just go across the street. Like, there's nothing holding me here. So it's just, it's real. I think it's moving more and more into how does it feel. Yeah, everything.

That's where I really like just admire the younger generation there. And we're not that old ourselves, quite honestly. But I mean, you take like my work ethic and just like working with you and, you know, Trag and all the guys that, we're so close to. I mean, the amount of days that I pulled all-nighters and skipped family events and weekends for my job, I can't even count on, like, if I had 10 hands, I wouldn't be able to count the days that I've done that. But I think, funny enough, we hired a younger generation, someone in a new generation to be at our company, and they said, hey, you know, at a certain time I'm done working and my doctor or my therapist said I need time with, you know, my family and I need to spend time on my hobbies. And, you know, I kind of scoffed at it and I laughed at it because like, well, how do you expect to succeed if you don't put in the hard work?

Mm-hmm.

But the other side is like, I've been burnt out most of my career.

Mm-hmm.

And there's something admirable about saying, hey, stop. And then just, you know, take some care for yourself. 'Cause if you do, your work tends to be a lot better. And then you look at it, you know, the, the one thing that people are talking about now is a 4-day work week. Versus a 5-day work week. And there's not much change having a 4-day work week versus a 5-day work week. That just shows, you know, self-care really goes a long way because now, you know, you feel rejuvenated at the start of each week and then you can run at full steam for full— for 4 days, right? And if you take a day off, you know, or if you, if you work an extra day, you're not really creating as much stress. And it's more like, hey, I, I'm willing to choose to do work on this day versus I'm forced to do something. And I think that's Interesting paradigm. I don't know where it's going, but it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next 10 or 20 years.

Yeah. I mean, it's ruthless out there, man. I mean, you can dedicate your 24/7 and take, put everything into a company and take them from a place they've never been to a place that they couldn't have gotten to without you. And they'll just drop you like a bad habit without even thinking about it.

Oh yeah, that's the first to go.

That is the truth. I have experienced it, you have experienced it, I have many friends that have experienced it and that's why it doesn't matter. Like the new generation, they have seen us and they have seen it and they understand it, which is why I think the companies that will win in the future are not that way. They treat talent as if that is the most precious jewel in the world and they understand that Without talent, there is no company. Without a company—

Mission statement.

I mean, it's true. I mean, I knew this from a young age without knowing it because I worked for this, it was Watson White, they're a human capital consulting firm. Like they knew this stuff for 100 years and it was just so obvious. But the rest of the organizations out in the world, especially startups, like it's just ripe for bad apples and Like some companies that are like small or mid-market that don't get beat up by the press. But like if people knew what's actually happening out there, like, I mean, you see it in the big press. I mean, big tech companies, right? They hire 1,000 people and then fire 1,000 people 30 days later. It's like, wait, I'm gonna trust you with my livelihood?

Good luck.

Good luck, man. Like no wonder—

Entire situation.

No wonder productivity in big tech has fallen off a cliff. No wonder the Engineers are like working 2 hours a week, collecting the paycheck and then going to work for a startup for the other 38 hours a week. Like, no wonder, man. I mean, you treat people like garbage. They're just going to stop trusting you. The end.

I think it's interesting though, because you look at, you know, people coming out of college 10 years ago versus now and, you know, the hope back then, and we've been in these conversations, is you hire young, especially, you know, coming out of an agency, you hire young talent because they're cheap. They work hard. They don't complain. Um, it's gonna be interesting because not anymore, because nowadays I have rights, right? Like, I have things that are more precious than work. And goddamn, I really, really, you know, admire that. Like, I, I hope to have that voice more and more as, as I'm getting a little bit more senior and then learning more about myself and what I want in my life. But I wish I had that at an earlier age. And I think I was lucky to have you and Trag and then Jared. You know, as mentors and as, as, you know, coworkers, friends, co-founders, whatever we were, we were just kind of everything to each other.

But having that really—

Buddies. Buddies. Yeah.

We're buddies.

Yeah. Without that, like, I don't think I would be who I am today, quite honestly. And then, you know, it's because I had leaders and mentors early in my career who have been able to push me to where I am. And then, you know, after you guys, I found an amazing lady named Julie Andrews who kind of cracked me into shape. I think you guys allowed me to be as creative, and you learned— I learned everything with you guys. I learned how to code, I learned how to design, I learned how to do product management. But she taught me structure. And you know me, I'm a clown till the day I die. But, you know, it's good to once in a while put on the business suit and to act professional. And I owe a lot to that human being. Wouldn't be who I am without her.

Yeah, yeah, that's good, man. I think, you know, I think it all just comes down to balance. I mean, here's the thing, right? Like I've always said, find your fascination. Like fascination just pulls you forward. I mean, there were periods where I've literally worked 2 weeks in a row without taking a break, including over weekends, and I didn't even feel like I was working. I mean, the balance in the life, like I would walk, I would play with my dog, I would eat. I would do some work, I would check in, I would come back out, I'd have an idea, I'd do something and it just felt like the most even keel natural approach versus another mindset which is like the whip where it's like, you know, stuff you don't like doing, forcing you to do it faster than is like organic or humanly possible and then setting an expectation that you need to grow 6x from what's ever been possible or achieved by the business before. and then like beating you up when something doesn't get hit, like unachievable growth. And I'm just like, I don't know, man, like the other way, I'm actually running circles around the other way. So it's like, I think, you know, the one that feels right, that's pulling you forward instead of the one that's like whipping you forward. I can tell you which one's gonna win long term. And, you know, I think, I think the reason a lot of people want to do entrepreneurship is because they have that aspect, like I want to have my own thing. This thing fascinates me. And then it's the problem of, I need to get paid. I want to have a big impact and yada yada. And so it's like that triangle doesn't always come to fruition. It takes time. I mean, it sometimes can take an entire career before you find it. But the other thing is like, we're not doctors. We're not curing lives or saving lives and no one's dying if we don't send that email. Like, we often say this, like, everyone just needs to calm down. Oh yeah, just calm down. It's gonna get done. Like, we're gonna get it done. It doesn't need to be done like in the next 13 minutes or else we all die. Like, this isn't a movie set. Like, Darth Vader isn't sitting behind us with his sword. I mean, in some cases they are.

Maybe, maybe. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree with that though. I think, um, When, I mean, even when we take a look at like almost a decade ago when we first started our company together like that, those 2 years felt like a wonderful dream. I think, you know, having that early in my career was almost a detriment because I've been chasing that high for a long time now. It's like, wow, like it was just so natural. I mean, every single time I like, I talked to one of you, we reminisce and like, you know, how easy it was, the ideas that just flowed, how ahead we were.

Yeah.

Um, and it didn't feel like work, quite honestly. It felt like I was putting on my, my clothes or my tie or whatever it was and just going out to clown around and then build good shit. And yeah, you know, you look at like the other places and then kind of exactly what you're saying is, is, you know, you have these brilliant ideas and the things that stop you are, you know, small little political checkpoints within a company, right? You know, you have to please this person because of how they would react and I mean, I can't tell you how many projects have failed because people were scared that, you know, someone in the C-suite would react adversely to it instead of just confronting them and saying, hey, look, I know this is gonna like tick you off, but like, let me just give you the reasons why. And, you know, as a product person, right? Like, you know, like here are the metrics on why it will succeed and here's all the research that I found on why it will succeed. But—

Yeah.

People get scared because they're scared of confrontation. And I think that's the hardest part I think is when you don't have that open transparency and honesty, like, I think it's okay to give harder deadlines once in a while, not all the time, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Put your team to do something uncomfortable for growth, but if you're not transparent about it, it seems like you're cracking that whip in a way that like you're punishing someone. But if you said, hey, look, I know you hate writing, which is the thing I hate to do, but if you can spend some time in here and I'll help you, you know, guide you through this, You'll gain a lot of skills, and I think it would be a good exercise for you to understand the other side. It's a very different approach, right? And then I think, or I strongly believe—not even I think—I believe that by doing that, you you have a different conversational point, and that respect goes a different way versus you know feeling that animosity towards your boss or your coworkers. And people hash out small shit too, right? Like, I mean, you see it all the times. Like, well, Becky said this shit about me. It's like, who cares? Like, sit on a table, like, talk it out and figure a medium ground. Because I like, at the end of the day, like, you're just trying to do good work and you know that person's trying to do good work. And where that conflict comes is that stress that, you know, you're just not talking, right? And how many times in our company have we had conflicting points, but we never got in a fight? What it was is like, hey, what, why do you believe in your idea so passionately? And let me get my piece in and then let's talk it through. And we've always found that it was like almost 90% of the time is the middle ground, right? Or 60/40. It wasn't just that one person's idea. It was, okay, I see the value in your idea, but like I also have things that I think will either, you know, help elevate yours or in combination is the perfect harmony of everything. And I don't think that happens enough. And that's what, that's kind of what's sad because I do think we can innovate a lot further and most companies, especially when you're looking at a company, Like Amazon or Tesla that have the amount of dollars that they do, right? It's almost an endless bank. You would expect there to be a little bit more innovation in some of those areas. And then yes, they're doing a lot of new things, but at the end of the day, Amazon just figured out how to ship a little bit faster and they've gotten really good data points, right? But a couple of smart data people can pull those metrics together. I'm not saying that it doesn't take an army. It does take an army to do that. But you would assume that we would almost be a little bit further some days if we push that type of environment in certain, in all companies really.

Yeah. Yeah, there's 2 things. One is collaboration. 2 is iteration speed and process orientation. I think the first thing, collaboration, the last episode I did with a special guest, her name was Deb Maschick. She's got a PhD. She literally wrote a book on collaboration. And she has a model for this on confrontation. And it's like basically where you come out is in real time, you just need to address issues as they come up and talk through them. And then the other thing is like the first 5 minutes of calls or whatever, just have that personal time to connect with people. And then when you get into the heat of the battle, things become much easier. But the other thing which is like iteration speed and like approvals and oh, I'm scared that the boss's boss's boss is gonna Like, I think that comes from being in corporate America too long and trying to— this reminds me of Steve Jobs and Walt Disney. When Steve Jobs passed, he said, don't ask the question, what would Steve do? Just do what you think is right. And it's the same thing. It's like, just do what you think is right because if you wait for approvals, your competitors are lapping you. Like, I will literally beat you in the game of business because our mantra is We have an idea, we get that hypothesis into the market, we see if it hits or not, and then we iterate and we do it again. So while they're spending weeks, months, years talking on Zoom calls, we're already capturing the market, like game, set, match from day one because your process sucks. Like you are ancient if that's the way you run your business today, you're ancient. If you go through like 28 levels of approval, And granted, I get it, like brand, legal. I mean, you pay a tax at a big company, privacy, legal, brand, right? Like, I mean, the whole thing, compliance. You do need some level of review, but that review can be almost instantaneous. It's just a lot of organizations are like, the last thing they care about is design and handoffs between departments and it just slows down to a crawl. And it's like nobody knows what anyone's doing. Nobody knows where a project is and it just creates bloat and like I'm not here for it anymore. Like I think this is why we get attracted to earlier stage because it's like I'm sitting here yawning while you guys are on yet another like all-day Zoom call and like in the meantime, I'm working behind the scenes on a prototype and it's like I send you a link and here's a product fully built, ready to go out in the market while you guys were talking. Yeah, like, it's silly. It's silly. And do you think Gen Z is gonna wait around? No, they're eating your lunch every day. They are their own media brand. Like, they've got an audience. They're just going to build a product and put it out there and steal your revenue.

That's the hardest thing to do, right? Is like, I think where we failed was we didn't understand how to market early on, right? Like, We attempted to market, but we knew how to build shit. Like, we built beautiful products and we still do today. But I think the funniest thing, and I talk about this with everyone, it's like my biggest pet peeve is when someone goes, hey, I'm an entrepreneur. And I've come to hate the word in certain ways because people say like they're an entrepreneur for having an idea, right? It's like this idea that's been brewing in my head. You go, oh, what do you do? It's like, well, I have a concept for like a t-shirt. Store. And then I've been thinking about this for like 2 years and it's like, so why don't you publish it? Well, I'm waiting for the right temperature. The winds have to be blowing at like this precise number. It has to be on when the lunar moon hits like this certain cycle and on this date and at this exact time only can I launch. And then you meet someone who's like, like you said, like 18, even 16. You're like, yeah, I opened up a Shopify store. I went on like a t-shirt printing company and I put like a stick figure and I made like $10, right? Like that person is exponentially further along because one, they learned to set up a website, which that person hasn't done. They figured out how to source their material. And even if it was a failed product, they were able to accomplish that. And by doing that, they've already succeeded because that's just the biggest piece of the puzzle is just taking your first step forward. And then from there, it's just taking another step forward, right? You're gonna fail along the way. You're gonna spend, Sometimes maybe $1,000 you don't have learning how to market, but if you can pivot fast enough, and I think this is something where I get attracted to the Arian product and this is why I gravitated to you so much, is that agile methodology or that product mindset is like you test till it fails, right? You pull it out, if it fails, you iterate and you keep moving as fast as you can. And if you do that, you're bound to figure out some success as long as, you know, you don't make the same mistake over and over And that's where I think the younger generation excites me because, you know, when you think about people who wanna create content, create brand, you know, they're putting their content out daily most of the time. And so you're learning and instant, getting instant gratification. What posts am I getting a lot of like on? What, what's, how many comments are we getting? And that is enough for say, okay, you know, putting up a video of me making, you know, some fun family content. really does well versus me putting content up on myself. I'm gonna do more of that, right? You just naturally get that dopamine from just seeing that type of content. So they're learning how to iterate without actually having to go through that thought process. And it's really cool and interesting. And I'm hoping that, you know, that takes them further than we've ever been. And then I, I'm confident that the generation, you know, that's coming up and the next generation will be significantly better than us. And just like every other generation, we try to improve and iterate from our parents and grandparents and learn from their mistakes. And it seems like it's the formula still, you know, stays true. I'm excited.

Yeah, I think there's some subtlety though. I think it's like having that asset behind the content like we talked about already. But I think there's also this level of If you're just chasing views, I did some episodes on this, like chasing views and virality doesn't get you anything. Like you, right? Like Kim Kardashian, let's break the internet. I'm gonna post a nude photo of myself. Great. Like you got a million views or 100 million views or whatever on that one post. But did they come back tomorrow? Did they buy anything? What did it do to your brand? Do I trust you? You know what I mean? Like, And so I, and then there's also this idea and you're not gonna be Kim K, but there's also this idea of duration where you have to keep going and believe in what you're doing enough and just know it. It's not even belief, just know that it has value and give it enough time for that compounding to take effect so it can reach the right audience and word of mouth can take over. Because I think a lot of the problem, I don't think we were bad at marketing. I think where we failed is we stopped. We stopped compounding from happening. And the other thing I will say about StoryApp, for example, the media format at the end before we were like doing some other stuff, we were iterating around the media format. The reality is we had it exactly right. The market wasn't ready for it yet. And if we would have just kept going, it was fine. But although, you know, Snapchat just copied our shit because We were marketing like we were doing. I was doing a podcast every week, like we were live blogging everything on Quora, right? Do you remember this? We were doing that. We were tweeting, we were writing blog posts. I went around to parking lots with cards and put cards of StoryApp in people's doors, in their car doors with the link to download it. Like we got wooden postcards.

Yeah.

And send them to 100 philanthropists of like the wealthiest philanthropists in New York City. I handwrote those things. So we marketed, we had tens of thousands of users in countries all over the world the day we launched. The problem was sticking with it and we self-funded because we didn't want to raise venture capital.

We were a little cocky, rightfully so though, right? Like I quite honestly at the end of the day, I do We knew where it was heading. We had full control. But I would say like, I think we were marketing and where I would almost push back is I don't think we understood our audience enough because we didn't have an audience segment yet, right? That we knew how to get in front of that same audience and replicate that success metric, right? We were kind of shotgunning, we were almost a shotgun approach, right? We kind of tried all these different methodologies and they did bring in traffic, but at the same time, Weren't around long enough to figure out, okay, this is our key persona, right? And in this persona, this is how they like to be targeted. So we should do more of this, right? And then I think that's where, you know, in hindsight and then spending a lot of my time after, and I think when we closed down everything, I was like, okay, where's the skill set I can see myself being more useful in the next time we go out on this venture? Figuring out how to actually find that market and then hit that same market that's coming to you and using your content and then kind of blowing it up with that one particular group. And yeah, I think, you know, you're right though. You're right. It's compounding. And when you even think about some of the stuff that I've done, you know, with Eco Ninja as an example, it's like the first thing we did was just put out different, like we tried different types of content. I told Jared, Mm-hmm. Draw a single page, draw a multi-page comic, do a video, let's show sketches from your notebook. And what we did was we figured out what got a lot of engagement and figured out who that person who was engaging with our content really was.

Hmm.

And then we started to focus more narrow. And then what we did was we said, okay, we know now comics that are multi-panel work really well. Let's try a square versus like a full rectangle. And the full rectangle worked out. So then we started to go into that way. So we A/B tested every little thing and we obsessed over what got interactions, what didn't get interactions. And it worked really well until I burned Jared out, you know?

Oh, I'm so sorry, Jared. Like, oh man, I feel bad for the guy. Let's get him giggles. You saw him on Sunday though, right? Wasn't he in there?

Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. I got, I got the lucky 3, I think. Yeah, no, he's, uh, he's doing well though. And, and I think, you know, this is still like on the down low, but like we've been able, because of that compounding effect, you know, 20,000 is not a lot of users. And I, I do think if we were able to post, you know, at least 3 times a day with new content, or 3 times a week with new content, we'd be well over 100,000 users. Um, but, you know, even that small segment amount, um, was able to help us get pitches with other companies for a show. And then what's really exciting about it is, you know, where we kind of spin that metric is, yes, we only have 20K, but when we take— talk about engagement rate, our engagement metrics are at 25% a post, which is—

Insane.

5 times at minimum higher than everyone else or your average engagement. So we know what we're doing, right? And it's that testing and that iterating. I think that's where We were getting towards a story app, but we never had a chance to get there because, you know, not having funding and not monetizing our platform soon enough meant that you were paying for all of our server costs or, you know, we—

Yeah.

Yeah. Living in New York was not feasible. You're right. You and Trag had to move outside of a more expensive city. I, you know, thankfully was with my parents at that time. But Yeah, I do think like, yeah, if we had another 3 or 4 months, we would have been in a very different conversation.

I mean, Snapchat couldn't do it. They had to go raise money because they couldn't afford the bill, the AWS bill. And same, but we just didn't want to raise capital because we saw all the problems with social media. And yeah, we, I mean, we knew all of this shit that's playing out in the, over the last like 3 or 4 years and today and the next 10. In AR, like, just wait.

I have our roadmap in our notebook and I'm just checking boxes off. I like, I'm not saying we were, we were innovators in any way because, you know.

No, fuck it, man. We were, we're good at what we do. I'm done being humble anymore. We were fucking world-class at what we do and I'm done. I'm done with people like rewriting the history books and not telling what the truth is. No, we invented the Stories media format. It's used by 2 billion people. And like the end, Snapchat took that stuff and then copied us. I mean, I guarantee you, look back at the blog post, look on Wikipedia at the timeline and our timeline. I mean, it's, if I was gonna put a legal timeline together, it's very clear. And then, you know, Instagram copied that and the rest is history. So screw it. Like, but here's the thing, right?

Yeah.

Can you do it again? That's the—

Easily.

That's the true test of skill versus luck. Can we invent another media format? Can we create another social network? Can we do it in 3D instead of 2D? Can we create a movie? Can we create art? Can we do growth? Can we use every single social network with billions of users now as our distribution channel? The answer is yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Right? I would say, like, do you disagree?

No, I would say, you know, if I was, and this is always like that, that like, you know, 10 years younger and I had that, you know, that financial flexibility and then not, you know, moving and wanting to start a family as much, I think, yeah, I think we can do that in our, I wouldn't say in our sleep because that's kind of downplaying the amount of work that other people do, but I would say we have been fairly successful in our careers. We have built really good products, and we've done things that you know have changed a lot of lives. And I'm not saying we're doctors; we are no means doctors. We're no, we're not architects. We're not lawyers. We're not, we're not really helping the world in a way that's beneficial in the sense that like you know we're saving someone's life. We're helping someone you know pay off loans. Where, but we are. Giving people enjoyment by the apps that we've built. And I think we do that very well and very successfully.

I mean, here's the test, right? And I agree with you. I agree with you. Here's my test. You and Jared for fun on weekends. Sure, there's like, yeah, we're doing this, we're serious. But nights and weekends in your free time outside of like full-time work that you're doing, you created a little thing You used a distribution channel and you're growing subscribers and have off the charts, have an off the chart engagement rate, like talking to big, big entertainment companies about making the show in your free time. In my free time in the last 2 months, I created this podcast and it's tripling subscribers every month. I'm at like 13,000 now in like what, an hour a day. And 2 of those weeks I was traveling, one like R&D trip, like wasn't in front of my computer. So like, I mean, I set up 30 distribution channels and I just let them go to work, you know, like I think as I've thought about this over the last decade, do you know what I think it is? And we said this, we said this at the end, I think it's patience. We said we'll come back together in 5 years. Well, it's been 10.

Yeah.

Whatever, but the patience to let all of this stuff play out and then look back retroactively and use that as a litmus test to see, did our hypothesis plan out? Were we, did we write the spec and were we right? And in every case we wrote, we didn't just write the spec, we built to it. And in every case we were right. Do you know how rare that is over a decade to go, we placed a bet and we were right on 100% of them to the point where other tech companies, all of them have adopted these things and now billions of humans on the planet use it. Do you know how many people in the world can say that? I don't know, but I guarantee you it's less than 50 out of 8 billion humans. I mean, that is really, really rare. And where I've come to, Chin, and I think you'll get here if you haven't already, is that you now have every right to trust your instinct.

Yeah.

If your instinct says do this and do it in this way, you have the ability and the evidence to say and believe that you are right. And when someone tells you, no, that's wrong, you walk away because they don't have the experience, the skill, or that time period of looking back on all of those bets in the thing that we've done over decades and have been right.

Yeah, no, I don't disagree.

The end.

Yeah, no, I don't disagree. Right? Like, and it's not even the work we've done, like all the bets I've taken in my career, right? It's flipping companies that have, you know, dried up in terms of what they had in spend, maybe, you know, the agency level or startup level, you know, it's been able to replicate that metric enough times and not understand, you know, Where, you know, I think the biggest thing is really the network side, right? It's where a lot of people struggle. It's like, how do I build out my network? And it's funny enough, it's like no matter how good you may be, sometimes you can't drag that along by yourself and you need a group of people to kind of hone in on that skill set. And I think that's one of the things that excites me is that, you know, being a lot older and having more connections than I had previously. There's a lot of things that I get excited about when talking to people, like maybe in real estate and being able to build a model that can predict, you know, where markets are moving and, and, and where pricing of houses are going and, and cool stuff like that. Or, you know, just take— and by the way, data is fantastically fascinating at this point in my life right now. And just figuring out how to leverage those things. And, and now that technology is catching up to where we've been kind of pushing or wishing where it would get to, I'm pretty certain that we can do very, very well, even if it was as a group or individually. I think technology has gotten to a point where we've removed a lot of our limiting factors that we had when we were in that Facebook bubble, right? When Facebook was the coolest thing in the world, Instagram was just getting popular. You're right. I think the world's changed drastically and those companies have made a large enough impact that, you know, they've attracted enough talent to want to build cool stuff to allow, you know, smaller or even single teams to build and ideate ways that weren't available to us at that time. And I think we'll continue to do that and then see really impressive technology that we say, oh, you know what we can do with this? We can do this, this, this and have it be a completely different beast than what people originally intended.

Yeah. And I, you know what I think the biggest problem is at this stage for people that may be listening in and vibing to this and have the same sort of like thought process, the same skill is There's so many problems in the world. There's so many opportunities. There's so many companies, so many startups, so many venture capitalists, so many directions to go in. What's the one that you can stick with for a decade?

Yeah.

That is the key thing. And I don't just mean stick with it like I can get up every day and I can like grit my teeth and like white knuckle it through it for a decade. I don't mean that. I mean like you jump out of bed, like you're jazzed, like this ain't a job. This is like a calling, a mission. You're just excited, you know, like excited to be around it. Like back in the StoryApp days, like it wasn't, it wasn't even a job, man. We just got up every day and we just like rapped and it was like, this is crazy. Like the stuff, I mean, it all existed in our minds. Like the stuff hasn't even come true yet. Like, Nobody even knows. But that's the thing, right? It's like, at least for me, I mean, you tell me, but it's like there's so— the skill set is large, the opportunity base is large, but what can you do that you stick with? Because duration wins and iteration speed. So it's like that iteration speed every day for a decade and you don't quit and then that turns into 2, 3, 4 decades. That's where the magic exists in like decade 4. I mean, look at Apple. Apple's still just hitting its stride and it was created 40, 50 years ago. You know, like, what?

That's crazy to say 40 or 50 years ago.

Yeah, man. Like, and Steve has been gone for a while. I remember in New York going to Fifth Avenue and me and Craig and all that stuff and you guys like I shed a tear. Of course. So that, that's my question. Like, actually, my question to you, do you know what that is? Like, if you could pick anything, because you're in a unique state right now, you have wide open field right now. You've been given that opportunity.

Yeah, no, I think it's taking the bet on myself, right? And then I have gotten to a point where I probably will continue to work For other people, I enjoy it because I get to learn a lot of new skill sets, meet a lot of new people. And I think that's probably one of my favorite things I've done in my lifetime is get to meet a lot of interesting humans. But for me, it's just taking the gamble myself and taking that first step again. It's been a little bit— I've been a little bit rusty. But yeah, for a lot of people out there, you know, it's not even waiting for that perfect idea or the perfect storm. It's just build a fucking e-com shop or make your first post on Instagram or TikTok or whatever it may be, and then bet on yourself. Because at the end of the day, all those things, even if you fail, compound into a skill set that a lot of people don't have. I mean, it's interesting because I'll have conversations about my background and people are like, well, you know, technically, do you really want to be in product? Because you have all this marketing skill sets, you've been able to do like e-com, you can You know, design fairly well and then do all these other things? And it's, well, I enjoy learning, and then being able to gather all those different skill sets allows me to have a proper conversation. So I'm not telling a developer, hey, deliver this, you know, feature in 2 weeks when feasibly it's not possible, right? It's gonna take 4 weeks. And having that empathy and understanding of how to do that really creates a good relationship, one, but two, has real roadmaps or timelines that you can bank on that you're comfortable with and know that can be true with a certain degree. So yeah, I think it's more betting on myself and then doing things that I've been passionate about. Maybe going back to e-com or going back into some more marketing stuff and growing another page. Continue to do that because I do enjoy that aspect a lot. And then just seeing where that goes. And at the end of the day, the end goal is just real estate. You know, as much real estate as I can own. It's something that my family's been lucky to get in New York early on, and we don't own anything in Manhattan. And I kicked my father for— my grandfather used to go in Alphabet City every single week, and they would give you the buildings away for fucking free because it was so dangerous. And my, my dad and his, uh, sisters were like, man, why would you do that? Like, man, if we just owned one building, we would be— I wouldn't even be on this podcast right now.

Right? Like, I think— yeah, you would. We'd be chopping it up.

But I'd be like an eccentric dude. Like, I'd have like these giant— yeah, I would, I would have like a, like a pink coat and then like these big glasses on. I'd just be chilling all day. Like, yeah, like I would be a completely different character. But, uh, yeah, no, I think, you know, end of the day, real estate's where I would like to be in because it's, it's something that I see my parents do and then it builds generational wealth, right? It obviously isn't life-changing because I'm still doing what I'm doing, um, but it allows me to take that and give it on to my children and say, hey, you know, hopefully you can do the same and compound so that at some point in time we've built enough wealth that, you know, if something happens, I feel comfortable that maybe my grandchild or whoever it may be, you know, has that security. And I think that's where I want to end up in. And then being able to work for a couple real estate companies and understanding that a little bit more in my career has been really fun to learn about. But I know with the skill sets that I have today that I can probably perform significantly better by staying in tech and then taking whatever money I earn and learning that in the real estate business. So I think it's a 2-part. It's really continue to compound the tech knowledge So that I can get to where I want to go within the real estate business.

Yeah, 2 things. So this last one is cash generation engine and capital allocation strategy. Earn cash in check, use the excess, invest in real estate. And that's your flywheel, which is cool, right? Like you stay in the thing you're really skilled at and then you play around the edges in the land and the buildings and then Use that asset to create more.

So I mean, you don't have to drop everything, right? You don't have to quit your job to start a business, right? Like, like you said, like Ecom Ninja, we did probably like, or, and Jared is another story. He, he did 40 hours a week. He did 40 hours or 60 hours at his normal job in order to 40 hours, you know, to, to get these drawings out. But like for myself, you know, it was like 5 or 10 hours, right?

Right.

Marketing is, is A lot of work, right? But at the end of the day, you don't have to quit your day job to get something started.

Yeah, 2 things at once or 3. That's how things happen in this world because each one feeds each other. Yeah. And then the other thing you said is like, oh, like product, like you do all these things like marketing, whatever. I've had this conversation before and there's, I have 2 answers. One, product is everything. That's the requirement. That's the expectation. But the other side of this is really, it's not about product or marketing or growth or ops or design or engineering or whatever. None of that stuff matters. What actually matters is it's only one thing. I'm driving towards a single outcome and a single result. How do I get there? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. And if I can execute against 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 19, 27, and 32, that means you don't have to hire that other person and I can have the conversation with myself and execute much faster. Which increases iteration speed, increases growth and improves the probability of success for that outcome. So the goal is develop skills 1 through 27 and then go execute against the market and your cost basis is much lower. I mean, I'm running a business with 95% margins. Is that possible? No, but I'm doing it. Why? Skills. How did that happen? Building things, taking them to market like And it's the same thing for you. It's like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the business is. You can break it apart in 5 minutes, right? Like you can, I mean, it takes a little longer than that depending, but especially in the tech or software world, like it's fundamentally put some information into a database, surface it back up and then it's like usability. Are you saving time? Are you making it fly? Like who's your market? Like how do you get to them efficiently? And then it's organic. Like if you're paying for traffic, like it ain't gonna work. You gotta figure out the organic thing and then just price it in a fair way and you're off to the races and then just don't break the law.

A lot of people have trouble with that and it's confounding how many people break the law without any remorse.

Yeah, that's laws or rules of man. The laws of the universe can't be broken. Rules of man are just based on whoever's in power and wrote down the thing into the time.

A lot of them are outdated. We gotta, we gotta do better. We gotta do better for our mothers and sisters too, for sure.

There's a lot of laws that are really, really bad. But yeah, that's why people want power and money so they can change the laws to benefit themselves and their business, which isn't about fairness. Law does not equal fair, but I'm a— I'm in the fair camp. I like fair, you know.

I like equal opportunity.

Yeah, all people, all species, that whole thing, you know, whatever. So anyways, uh, we've got 6 minutes left. How should we leave this?

Whatever you want, dude.

How was, how did it feel taking a break and a vacation for a week with, with your partner? How did that feel?

After 5 years of running, it was, it was, I'm at peace for the first time in a long time.

Is it weird? Did it take some time to come down?

Oh no, no, not, not very. I think the minute I'm off and like, I know that like no one's calling me, it's like, it's my time. And I'm not letting anyone interfere with that, especially when with, you know, someone that I love to the degree I do currently with my partner. And I would say, you know, it's easy to take that time off because you don't know when the next big project is going to come.

Yeah.

And then, you know, my— Julie's been gracious enough to allow me to work my crazy hours and wake up in the middle of night and like open up my phone and just start typing a whole textbook of ideas for a feature that to come out and how I would get it done and how I would execute it. And then, you know, I think it's important to be able to take that step back, and I have not done that well prior. So—

Same, same. Yeah, that's, that's the bad side.

Yeah, no, no, but it's, it's, you know, you obsess over all these other things, but, you know, sometimes it's, it's good to like not be obsessive. So when you come back, you're, you're really fresh. It's like that.

Yeah.

4-day workday versus that 5-day workday, right? You feel that refreshing, you know, calmness. And I can say with, you know, like 100% certainty that like this is the best I've felt in those 5 years. And then, you know, not being in that political space at work where you're like worrying about your job or how I'm gonna ship a feature in like 3 weeks and my dev team is gonna tell me it's taking 2 months and we don't even have any developers available. and trying to figure out a solution to get that feature out. Like, feel good right now. I feel real good and, uh, excited for the future.

It's good, man. Yeah, you're in a, you're in a blessed space right now. And the fact that you got to enjoy that in a free area, um, was— I mean, it's sort of like you just got to take that blessing space. But I'm with you. I've come after putting myself in the hospital a couple times I've come to the conclusion that your best work happens once you're in that state of boredom and like you're a Ferrari in a garage and you're like, I gotta do something, right? Because like I'm just going insane sitting on my hands. And the problem is you just get into that state where you push that gas pedal down where you're RPMing at 100% and redlining for years.

Yeah.

And you lose the forest through the trees. So that break time is almost like a way to clear out the cobwebs and the other thing—

Your oil changed.

Yeah. And the other thing that's worked really well is just exercise, like running, lifting, going for a walk, like just that break. The, it's the connectome, it's that physical, cuz your brain isn't just here, it's your whole body, right? I mean, you know this with the prone stuff. Yeah. It's— there's something magical that happens. It's like a broom that sweeps your connectome clear by doing that physical exertion.

Yeah.

And then weird, crazy connections just start happening. Yeah. And I think if you just— you're in the game long enough, like, you don't really have to worry about it because there's so many people and places and things that need help. It's really more about What do you want? All the way back to that train station moment, like, what do you want?

And then, uh, little tiny Asian guy, I mean, cursed out by you, Herbert. What do you want, Shin? I'm like, I don't know. Like, just— Greg's like, figure it out, my dude, or you're not getting on the train. You gotta figure out this stuff by yourself. You have 60 seconds.

Hotshot, go! Yeah, no, it's good. You figured it out, and you're still figuring out— we're all figuring it out. It changes every day, you know?

Yeah, the dream changes the more you learn about the world, you know, the more your energy gets pulled to different places. When we have this conversation 10 years from now, it's going to be completely different.

Um, but it's weird how fast 10 years went. Like, honestly, it seems like yesterday we were just chopping it up. Like, honestly, like, where did Where did it go? Like, it's nuts.

It went to work.

Yeah, seriously. Like, we blinked and then like all of tech changed. But not really. Yeah, I think 10 years from now will be super interesting. But I think we'll still be in the early stage of the 3D S-curve. So everything's gonna have to be rebuilt in spatial space.

So I can't wait for that.

It's gonna be fun. We can build it, man. Like, yeah, like, you, you know, I mean, you can see it. I hope you know my, uh, my secret master plan. I mean, I've actually told you guys on the group thread, so it's not like some big freaking secret over here. But we'll see. In, in the meantime, check out the Stinker Squad.

That's pretty cool.

You got 3 guys now, or gals and guys? No, that's so that's Booker Dean. He's getting up there. He's almost. Hello. Yeah, that's Nitro. He passed a couple years ago, and that's she's like seven-ish now. But yeah, I got that picture in the backyard. They were all looking up at me with, so I took it with the phone. It's like one of my favorite perfect picture.

Yeah. My favorite picture is is of your wedding still. I think it's been my background. It's all my profile photos. Wait, was it this one where you're like dabbing and super? Yeah, we were like doing some Dragon Ball Z shit, and like, it's funny because like I don't think half of that group has watched Dragon Ball Z. So, so like it was just such a weird moment, but like that picture is like the essence of our group. It's just like 4 crazy people who, you know, just are passionate about what they do, and then somehow being in different fields, you know, 2 of us being completely different fields than the other 2, you know, really have so many things in common. And that's what makes the world interesting. That's what makes New York so interesting. I'm like in the process of like trying to convince Jared to move back because I, I miss that energy. And then if it's not with one of you 4, like it just feels empty.

I know. Yeah, that's why we all gotta like just get the fam back together and just tinker. I mean, it doesn't have to be anything actually real, you know, like screw it, like just a once a month call. I mean, it's just, it was too special To let go, you know. So anyways, I, I'm gonna do a road show this fall or in the spring, and we'll start getting stuff back together. We still need to schedule a reunion. We keep saying— we've been saying it for years. Yeah, this is our year. The next 12 months, things— good things.

Next 6. 12 is too long, man. It's a long roadmap. Things don't get done in that long time.

You can't stop. You can't stop, Jared.

Let's go. Come on, more drawings, more comics.

Let's go, bro.

Yeah, don't sleep. You can sleep when you're dead, man.

Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. All right, brother. Well, this has been fun. I'm gonna— my master plan is I'm gonna get all 4 of us. I'm gonna do individuals. I'm gonna get Trag and Jared to do one-on-one with me, and then I'm gonna get all of us and we'll go Super Saiyan in a single conversation and It'll just be like, like The Fifth Element at the end of the movie where the girl's like— it'll just be like that.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, no, I'm down for anything. And then I'm looking forward to Trag's one. Trag is always a treat. I spend way too much time with Jared, so I know, I know what he's— I know him enough. But, but Trag's the, the character that always has my ears percolating.

He's, he's just nuts. He's on a different dimension.

He is. I mean, even his work, like, you talk about, like, when you talk about, like, 10 years ago, like, Treg has taken the biggest leap by far out of all of us. So I'm excited to see what he has to say and the wisdom and knowledge his wise self has, you know, gathered in the short amount of time we've been apart.

Yep, do it. Don't get addicted to the money. Get addicted to the outcome.

Just do something you love, right? That's right. Perfect example of chasing your passions versus doing it for the money.

Yep, that's it. That's all it is. All right, brother, enjoy Manhattan. Stay safe. Uh, keep that clean air, water, and food in your system. And, um, yeah, I'll see you on the text thread and we'll make something happen here.

We sure will. All right, love you, dude.

All right, brother, love you too. Have a good one.

Bye. Peace to the lose.