Product Marketing with Ashley Faus | Product Marketing Plan

Hey, Sean.

Hello.

How's it going?

Good. Can you hear me okay?

I can.

Great. Well, happy New Year.

I know. Happy 2023. I think this is my first podcast recording of 2023, so, so exciting.

How many do you do in a year? Like 100? No.

So it's funny, I actually, uh, I have a spreadsheet that I have yet to go through, but I think this year it's going to be less than last year, which is good. Um, I've been making intros to people, but it's It's funny because, you know, creators like the hosts slice it up into like a bunch of different assets, which is great. And then I go comment on all of it. So it's like, man, I see you in my feed all the time. Are you doing like 100 things? And I'm like, no, I think it was only like 20, you know, which is still a lot.

But— Oh man. And on like every channel too, it's like TikTok chopped up. You've got like YouTube Shorts, Instagram Reels. It's like You're everywhere. I mean, that's just good marketing though, you know, it's like everywhere you look, it's like the brand.

So I know, but what, but it's funny because like I'm not actually on TikTok. I'm lazy about Instagram. Like I post cakes on Instagram. So it's just, it's so funny because I'm like, it's, I mean, it is, it's good marketing. It's like, yeah, join, join other, what other people are building and you don't have to, you don't have to always build your own thing. Like, Go, go build your one thing that you're really good at and let that attract the right people. And then they spread your message for you. So it's, yeah, it's super interesting. But yeah, how's everything been? Like, how, like, is your calendar booked with interviews and stuff?

Well, you know, the podcast is really just like, it started off as just a labor of love. Like, it was just fun and I just love talking to people and Like hearing, yeah, I feel like you just learn so much quicker.

Yeah.

If you could go like straight to an expert in a subject and it's like instead of reading books and pouring through blog posts and at some point you get through just, I've been on the internet since forever. And so at some point you're just like, I need a new way to like get information. And then I've also, I was playing around with all the different media formats and the video thing, like video podcasts seems interesting because we're getting all of our AI data. So like in the far future, all the AI bots will just scrape our video feeds and create 3D models of ourselves. And so this might not actually be us. We might be copies of ourselves right now. We don't know.

We might be deepfakes right now.

Oh my gosh. So yeah, it's just, it's just been fun. And then, but yeah, the, the new year has been like insane already. Like I, That's my question for you. Like, did you get any rest over the break or was it straight through the holidays? And how have you found it?

Yeah, so I took, I did take 2 weeks off, which was good. I'm actually down in La Ventana, Mexico doing some kiteboarding and like doing a little bit of work remote and stuff like that. So we, and we had friends in town, so it was, it was good. But it's funny because, you know, I have all of my metrics from 2022 and I'm like kind of antsy to do a look back, but I was intentionally trying to like You know, take a break. And I'm kind of like, okay, but I actually like, you know, I set goals and I want to see if I hit them. And like, I kind of want to do a look back. Um, so it was good, but things have settled down now. So I'll probably spend some time this weekend taking a look back at kind of what worked, what didn't, what I want to double down on, what I want to kind of take a break from, those kinds of things. So yeah, so it was good.

Invest in what works. Yeah, I got— I, I forced myself to take 2 days off because I'm always in front of the computer, or 4 days off. And by the 4th day, I started getting real itchy, and I was like, I don't know if I could like quote unquote retire.

Yeah.

Because I just like, what would I do with all my time? And I just kind of love this stuff anyways. And the day goes by so quick, you're like, all right, it's 8, uh, what happened to the day? So you got to be careful with it because Yeah, like a decade. It's like the decades are short, but the days are long.

Yeah, yeah, it's— yeah, no, I'm kind of with you. That whole, um, read a book on the beach, I can only do that for like a day, and then I'm like, okay, what are we doing?

Yeah, what's next? Yeah, you start getting itchy. So anyways, like, as I mentioned in our little, our little email chat, I really have like 2 major questions I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna get your perspective on. And the first one It's just like your origin story. I want to know, like, how did you get to here? What's the background? What's the hero's journey? You know, I want to hear that. And then I want to talk a little bit, a little bit business shop, all that stuff. And yeah, yeah, cool. So yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit about like your journey.

Yeah, my journey. It's funny because, um, in the traditional hero's journey, it's like there's got to be an inciting incident and then you go through this magical world, right? And you get this mentor and in At first glance, I always laugh that I'm like the one person who actually majored in marketing and then got a job in marketing and have had a career in marketing. But if we rewind before all that happened, I did have an inciting incident that I had to go through like a whole magical world with a mentor. So I actually started college as a musical theater major. And I, you know, all through high school, and I knew like I was very focused on performance. I was you know, competing and doing all of that. But even then, I kind of realized, like, I don't really have the talent to perform for a living. Like, it's a very small percentage of people who can make their living performing. And then I went to college and I actually had my inciting incident. I got nodes on my vocal cords, which is like a medical— it's like calluses on your vocal cords.

Oh no.

And it's pretty common for singers. And especially if, you know, you sing a lot and maybe you're not using— you don't have the best vocal practices. So I had to go on vocal rest. So again, my magical world was being silent. for 4 to 6 weeks during the holidays, and I had to use a whiteboard and I couldn't talk. And that obviously gives you a lot of time to, you know, think about your life and your choices and like—

Right.

What— sorry, what am I gonna do with this degree? And what if this happens again? And so, uh, long story short, I ended up recovering. I can still sing. I didn't have to have surgery, which is great. But I realized, okay, I definitely don't— I knew I didn't really have the talent, but now I definitely know I don't and I don't want to teach. So like, what the heck am I gonna do with this degree? And so I had to go through, you know, the battle in the special world of figuring out what the heck I'm gonna do with myself. And so I started going down the path of figuring out like, what am I interested in? What do I like? What kinds of careers are possible with those things?

Yeah.

And went into basically found marketing and went into my first like marketing 101 class and I opened the book and it says marketing is about people. And I was like, Yep. Ding. This is what I'm doing now. Shut the book and I was like, I have a major. So it is funny because I don't— on the surface, I don't feel like I went through the hero's journey, but I'm like, oh man, that first semester of college, like, yep, yep, that was my hero's journey.

Yeah, that's, you know, that's— is everything okay with the voice now?

Yeah, yeah. So prior to COVID, I was doing 2 or 3 shows a year, community theater, like for free. Yeah, so I actually perform all the time. I'm in a show coming up I have rehearsals starting in March, actually. So I'm gonna be in The Producers, which I'm very excited about. So yeah, I get to perform all the time now.

Wow. I mean, you, you know, life is weird. You may end up on, on or off Broadway or adjacent to. You never know. I mean, life is weird.

I mean, on one hand, yes. On the other hand, I see the talent that I'm up against in my community theater. There's some powerhouses out there. Like, again, I'm, I'm, I am a solid performer. I do, you know, I love what I do. I'm fun to watch. I get cast as often as I want at the level that I perform at. But, uh, I'm all the way across the country from Broadway.

That's interesting.

I'm a full country across from, from Broadway.

Well, you know, there might be— I mean, you're really performing. I mean, marketing's a bit of that, and you've been running the podcast circuit. So, you know, you— we haven't broken into song yet, Like, but if, you know, the cast of Frozen pops up in the background, like, we're good to go.

We could do it just like Lin-Manuel Miranda pops in from the blur.

Yeah, yeah. But that's, you know, that inciting incident. It's one of the things I actually worry about because I think about my eyesight, not so much the voice. And I have a friend who is, he's not sighted, right? So His whole life. And so a lot of the conversation I have with him on accessibility is like computing and the content out there.

Yeah.

Like just podcasts, right? Like, I, you know, I can hear it. But if I can't see, a lot of the internet was deathly silent for a long, long time. And so if the screen readers aren't set up correctly and not having your alt tags and everything, it becomes a big deal. So I really like Apple's sort of focus and commitment down that path because I wonder like, man, if my eyesight went, it would be really hard to do what I do. Or, you know, like folks like us, like the fingers and just the ability to do your day-to-day that a lot of us take for granted. It's like, it's a big deal.

Yeah.

And speaking too, if we can't speak, I mean, everything is like Zoom calls now. So Yeah, it's— well, I'm glad you're healthy and you're safe and you still get to do some of the fun stuff. One other quick question then. Did you have a talisman?

A talisman?

Yeah. I mean, have you ever—

maybe the whiteboard. Yeah, it kind of counts as the talisman. Um, but I don't know, man. That was probably like the bag of rocks that I had to like drag along with me, right? Like, that was more— that was more the obstacle I faced.

Pushing that boulder up the hill like Sisyphus.

Yeah, like, yeah, and I'm super extroverted, which is no surprise to literally anyone who sees me do literally anything. Um, and oh man, that whiteboard situation, it was real rough. It was real rough.

I, I think I saw Lady Gaga or somebody, one of the performers, musicians, had that for a while. I was like, oh, that's rough. Yeah, because it's, it's slower too than you're used to. So did you find it kind of like took your vibration level down a little bit, or were you still as fast?

Yeah, I mean, the issue, the problem with it is that it's not particularly— at least in my case, it wasn't particularly painful. And so it, it really is a— it was a mental thing. Um, and I'm trained like So it wasn't— and in my case, it was quite mild. And like, you know, it's not like Julie Andrews where they basically— yeah, poor woman, she had a very severe case in it and had to have surgery and it ruined her cords.

Right.

So yeah, so it's— in my case, it was, it was mild and like the vocal rest solved it. But yeah, it's a big deal. I mean, a lot of performers, you're seeing it's much more common now, especially for like touring performers. like pop and some of that where there may be, especially if they haven't had a lot of training, which this— I mean, again, I think this dovetails a lot with marketing as well because the pacing that you speak with, the breathing, the support, like, I'm, you know, I try to sit up straight. I don't want to be sitting here like this. Like, there's so many things with it that once you kind of go through something like that, you're like, oh, it's good to have good posture when you speak and when you're on meetings and not just like You know, sitting down like this, right? So it's, you know, it's good to like have your throat relaxed. Like, don't, don't be talking like this, you know? Like, you can see it sometimes when people speak or sing and their throat is like really tight and it's just like, no, just let it go. So that's all sorts of professional lessons in there too.

No, that's, that's super interesting because I've never even thought about it. But you're so right because I'll— I mean, as you were talking, I was leaned forward on the desk here and yeah. You're so right. Like, posture is such a big deal, and having that airflow and like the attenuation and everything, it makes a difference.

Yeah, yeah. It's also interesting from a cultural perspective because, uh, in the US we speak in a very like small range of tones, um, but it's actually better for you to speak slightly higher. And so then, then where most of us are trained to speak, and then there's other issues from like a confidence perspective or a gravitas perspective that deeper voices sound more confident and more authoritative. So a lot of women are coached to kind of like lower where they speak. So I actually sing for soprano, the like really high stuff. But if you meet me, I speak lower, right?

Yeah.

So it's this interesting balance where if I start speaking very high, I sound young or I sound less confident. So it's a whole thing both from a cultural perspective and like a training perspective, obviously, I don't intend to lower my voice, but that's what I hear all around me. And so that's kind of just where I settle. So it's a, it's a super interesting thing, um, to think about that from a speaking perspective, a marketing perspective, a leadership perspective. Like, how are you showing up? How did you come to show up that way, just even from a speaking standpoint? And then if you're doing some other type of discipline, How do you bring that in to other parts of speaking and showing up and walking around, right? Like, it's, it's a very interesting thing to think about that both from a vocal standpoint and from a character standpoint. And then when you translate that to marketing and you think about audience empathy and who are they, how do they walk, how do they think, what motivates them, all of that has a lot of overlap.

Wow. Yeah, I mean, there's so much to that because it's like this inherent bias. It's like this weird social animal in us to try to like get on same similar vibration levels and even posture and everything. And I've seen some videos where— this was on TikTok. I like do my R&D now on TikTok. So I, I saw this one gentleman and he was doing different interactions. So it would be him and someone else, either a woman, another man, and it would be simple posture changes, just where I held my hands, where my shoulders were, and if I was a tiny bit in front of or behind a person, and how that was perceived in terms of power dynamics. And I was like— and then you bring up the point about just the level of your voice, an octave. And I've even found this too, because I have a naturally deeper voice, that I'll even speak up higher to be less— I don't know if combative is the right word, but just more open.

Yeah. Right.

To, to people. And so I'm not a perceived threat. So it's weird, all these little human— and you try not to have a mask, and it's like, can you ever not? And like, the ego is always there, and can you ever really kill it? And you're like, yeah, I killed the ego. And it's like, well, no, that's actually your ego talking. And it's like, right, what, what do we do? Like, do we just stay in a corner and rock ourselves to sleep?

Like, I think it's funny too because I obviously go back and like watch and listen to all of the podcast interviews and anything that's recorded where I speak, I watch it. And I noticed that I had an angry neutral face. Like if I was sitting on a panel or if I was sitting in a podcast, I looked like angry. My concentrating face was like, you know, it just looked angry. And I was like, man, I should look more pleasant while I'm listening. And so then I, the next time I did it, I was like very enthusiastically like, but then I looked dopey. It's like, okay, how do I, I need to curate a pleasant, neutral, engaged listening face so that if I'm on a panel or if I'm listening on a podcast or something like that, that I don't look like a crazy person. And so I literally, I stood in front of the mirror and I was like, Mm-hmm. And you need just enough because the other problem is, you know, talking about cues, I— if I'm too enthusiastic, then you think I want to jump in, and so you stop speaking, right? Like the amount of nodding that you just did, I'm like cautious, I'm cognizant of how much I'm talking and how much you're talking. And so if you're too enthusiastic, then I'm like, oh, I'm— I should be done speaking so he can speak. But you don't have anything to say. You're just nodding because that's what humans do. And so there's this other interaction where you almost have to curate a different cadence for a podcast conversation or an interview or a panel that you wouldn't do in real life because that's not how humans work. That's not how conversation works. But this isn't really a conversation. Like, we are— we're trying to make it a conversation, but ultimately we have a goal. We have a— we have a— timeline that we have to stop on.

Yeah.

And so that mirroring is a, is like a separate skill set that you don't realize you need until you hear really great podcasts or really not great podcasts or something in between, right? Like, the thing that makes it really interesting is that the host and the guests have struck that right balance.

Yeah, I feel like I need to go take acting class now. You know, I saw this I saw this other thing where it was a— it was this analysis of Brad Pitt over the years. And in the very beginning, it was like his first headshot. And he just kind of looked like this dopey teenager, like, hey guys. And then by the end, he was gravitas Brad Pitt, international man of mystery, whatever, right?

Yeah.

And it was— and then I saw the same thing with Daniel Craig, who played 007. And I wasn't like seeking this stuff out. It just— again, back to TikTok, the R&D channel. But I was like, that's super interesting. interesting. It was like teeny tiny subtle variations just on a face like you described, and, and that could make the difference. And then I saw this thing that was really interesting in this write-up about Marilyn Monroe, and a reporter had gone out on the street with her in New York back, I don't know, in the '50s, whenever it was. And she had like on the baseball hat or whatever, the coat, and you couldn't tell who she was. And she said something to him like, do you want to see it? And he was like, what? And she was like, I can turn it on. And nobody had noticed her. Nobody paid attention. It's like being in the street in New York, like nobody notices anybody, right? And then something happened. And he couldn't pinpoint what it was or what she did. And all of a sudden, she became Marilyn Monroe, and everyone came. Nothing about her appearance changed. Nothing about the way she walked changed. It was something in her vibration state that changed. And all of a sudden, everyone felt it and noticed it. And And it's like so powerful. And what is that? And like, I have friends that did Second City in Chicago, and another chap who I've known a long time who's trying to get into the improv state. And it's a whole thing that I don't have because I was like a math guy. Like, let's go into like a back room in a dark cave and like pound on the calculator. And it's like, what is all this stuff? So this is— I mean, Yeah, I feel like I need to go read some books or something now.

Yeah, the psychology piece of it, it's interesting. You know, some of the tricks, like you see it with sales, that if you say someone's name, they react to that. People like to hear their name. Mirroring, where like, okay, if you lean forward, then like I'm gonna lean forward, or if I lean back, then you lean back. So there's a formula But if you do it as a formula, people pick it up.

Yeah.

So I talk about this a lot where people, when I say like, you have to genuinely care about your audience, you have to genuinely love them as whole humans. I can't tell you how to do that. I can tell you how to write better content. I can tell you how to be a better speaker. I can tell you how to find new ideas, but I cannot tell you how to genuinely love your audience and for them to feel that from you. And so it's super interesting because yes, there's an element of training it, but I feel like it's almost training yourself as well to genuinely have that energy or those feelings or that mindset about something because I've seen it and people who are really close to me can see it where in my mind I'm like, oh, I did the same performance, right? I did the same talk, and some people are like, man, you were on today. And I'm just like, I, I didn't feel like— what did I do differently? And they can't tell me what I did differently, just that I was on. Yeah, it was great, right? So it's a really interesting thing. Sometimes I can pinpoint if something is off. Yeah, sometimes I can pinpoint, like, man, that one was really good. But that middle ground where other people feel like it was really good and I can't pinpoint why That's the piece where I'm like, how do we, how do we bottle that thing? You know, it's—

I mean, maybe that's a good segue because we're— we got like 7, 8 minutes left into— do you think that, that genuine curiosity— it's like Dale Carnegie's book How to Win Friends and Influence People, which at the core of that is just like genuine curiosity and interest, fascination, and from that everything.

Yeah.

So like the main question is like, have you found things over your career being in marketing for so long, being like, I'll just say stage-trained performer where you found something that really does allow like genuine human connection? And I guess if there is genuine human connection, have you, and it's real and it's true, have you found like if you can merge that into a product or a service or a feeling that That, that is the thing that ultimately like helps capture that engagement or that retention, or is it something else, or is it completely wildly all over the map and no one knows and that's why we have jobs?

I think it's a little bit of both. One thing that I've found, the— I agree that it is an element of curiosity, but there's a fine line between being curious And interrogating someone. And I think there's also a fine line between like having their best interests at heart to guide them and manipulating them.

Yeah.

And that fine line, like part of the reason that I was so interested in marketing when I first started, I was like, I just love to like dig around in people's brains and figure out what makes them tick and then use that. And my husband was like, So you want to manipulate people? And I was like, what? No, that's not what I want to do. But, but yeah, it can come across that way, that marketing is manipulative. And I've been in situations— this is something that, um, has worked well for me— of kind of like being a handler or being almost like the ghostwriter, the voice behind a person. And several people have commented, they're like, how do you do that? Like, how do you handle them? And I'm like, I mean, I listen to them and I watch them and I do that and then I do that thing. And it's the same thing, that sense of mirroring with your audience when you talk about, so I market to developers and handily I am married to a developer. So I kind of joke, I'm like, I need to write a post that's like, I married my, you know, my audience and you should too, right?

But that's amazing.

That ability to see someone who happens to be in my target audience as a whole human, When you start talking about mirroring the language or digging into someone's head, it's like it can't just be a surface-level archaeological dig, right? You can't go to the museum and understand the dinosaurs the way that the archaeologists who dug around and found the bones and pieced it all together. Or, you know, there's whole— there's a whole discipline for understanding at a deep level other civilizations or species or whatever it is, right? And I think that as marketers, we have to genuinely be in that community or with those people. We have to internalize that. It can't just be, oh, I hung out on some forums and I picked up some of the lingo. Like, people can tell if you're using the lingo because you read about it or because you actually know what the lingo is, right? So I almost think it's, it's that willingness to embody Even if it's only for a moment in a conversation, right? Like, I didn't come in here thinking we were going to talk about vocal performance and mirroring and all of these things, right? But I have enough knowledge and enough passion about that topic that I can mirror that back to you, you know, and you can mirror that back to me. Like, we're both coming to this with a willingness to be in this space. fully and together.

Yeah.

And not in like a woo-woo way, not in a like trust circle kind of way, but like, oh, we're not sharing our deepest, darkest secrets. But like, if you approach it with that openness to be in this and embody whatever it is that we're doing here, that I think does resonate. And people can feel it. People can feel if you're acting. And I, again, that's the thing that I don't know how to bottle. Like, how do you not act? I don't know. I've—

the word that comes to mind and has for a long time is method acting. It's like you have to become the user almost in order to truly understand what it's like. It's like the old writers, right? It's like you got to go live life before you can write about it and like use the pain, use the joy, like, because it's so rich, like.

Yeah.

Life is so rich, as they say.

Yeah, I think your point about becoming the user and doing that not from a marketing standpoint, because I think sometimes marketers, we drink our own Kool-Aid. We're like, our product is the best ever. We have this awesome new feature. And it's like, no, but have you tried to use the feature genuinely?

Because like, it's hard to get to.

Some features are not good, you know, and you have to, you do have to be willing to Go, go try a competitor's product and come away with, man, this experience was actually really amazing. Here's why I still think that our product is superior, but like we got a gap and we need to solve that gap. I understand why people are, you know, I coming from a software as a service, why people are churning or where they're churning to, what over there is attractive to those people. Let me genuinely go look at that as if I am You know, willing to make a switch, right? I think that, that again, that line of balancing between genuinely going and doing, you know, a teardown of your own product to improve for the users versus to make yourself feel better that you're superior as a product or a company. It's a fine line, and it bodes well for the user if you can approach it with an open mind to improve their experience.

I agree. It's the 360 view. It's a total experience. Yeah, just so happens to be behind a sheet of glass right now, but probably not for much longer.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Well, we're— I mean, this has flown by. This has been amazing. So thank you so much, Ashley, for stopping by. And, uh, I, I have work to do now. I need to go.

I know, I've assigned you homework. You have to go read some Stanislavski and, uh, go check out you know, some, some Second City improv classes.

I think it might be in my future in 2023.

I like this journey for you.

Well, beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. It's been such an honor and such a pleasure having you on today and getting to know you a little bit better. And so thank you for sharing your passion, your joy, and a bit of your background today.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

All right, well, here's to a great 2023. I think good things are in store for us all.

Indeed.

All right, great. Well, I'll, uh, I'll shoot this to you and we can, you know, have a look at whatever. And okay, we need to make edits, we can do that. And if not, no worries. And, uh, then we'll push it out there and be pretty easy.

Yeah, sounds like a good plan. Good way to kick off the new year.

There it is. All right, Ashley, thanks so much.

Thanks, Sean. Bye. Bye.