Uncovering the Secrets of Hiring Executives with Beau Billington

Well, how are things, man? Are you, uh, gearing up for the holidays? You taking any time off?

Yeah, it's, uh, you know, hold on, let me put my focus mode on. All right, good. Um, yeah, I, you know, it's when you do your own thing, kind of like you, it's, it's never off. So I don't know, I, but I'm gonna enjoy, I think, Christmas and New Year's and just kind of wind it down a little bit and relax. And enjoy the quiet period because Lord knows once 2023 hits, it's just gonna be insane. How about you? Are you guys doing anything?

Well, I mean, I'm kind of in the same boat. I was talking to my wife just yesterday and I was like, you know, it's like the entrepreneur, it's the plight of the entrepreneur. Like I'm miserable this week because I think I had 15 calls yesterday, 15 the day before and the day before. Well, today's Wednesday, but you get what you get, my drift. And I'm like, Packing everything into this week, so next week's a little bit easy. But now it's starting to bleed over into it, and I just gotta remind myself like this is what I signed up for, and you know whatever. But the the the slog is here, the crunch is here. But yeah, we're seeing the town, gonna take some some time off for sure. And then the beauty of it is I gotta rinse and repeat. You know what I mean? Like so that I'll say that. I don't know if we're gonna talk about this in the podcast, but like that's one of the things I do miss about corporate America is like. You just show up January 5th, you know, and like, I've gotta be all strategic and like hit the ground running hard and make sure, you know, come end of H1, I'm positioned well to finish the year in a better position than the year before.

Right.

But hey, whatever, man.

Yeah, that is, that is always the case. So yeah, I think it's why I think the rest period is so important, especially like over the weekend and at night. I mean, I know folks that are like, And I've fallen victim to this too, which is like the weekend is the period where you accelerate and you spend your time to, you know, get ahead and sort of beat the competition, if you will, and then get all your ducks in a row. So Monday morning, like first light, you're executing at speed. And I've found over the years that you do need to like shift your mental focus away from it a little bit and get that that downtime and just sort of let the subconscious do its own sort of work. And, and then you get the recharge and you just approach everything a little bit better. By the way, my dog's here. Like, as soon as I start talking, he runs up and—

Yeah, I got a dog too.

No worries.

I actually locked him in the kennel because I've gotten burned on a couple of, uh, a couple podcasts. Somebody comes to the door, FedEx man, and just—

it's crazy.

Well, you know, I feel the same. That's a, that's a trap as well. Like, I found myself on Sundays, like, going through my inbox You know, getting it down to 2 to 3 emails. So when I wake up Monday, it's, I'm ready to roll and that's good and helps with anxiety. Um, but also too, I need to make sure I'm present and chilling on the weekends and relaxing on the weekends. And I've, I've done the nights and weekends thing, uh, for 2 years and I'm, I'm not gonna do it again.

Yeah. Like, does it actually help? You know, it's like, and then it's the sun. I've heard someone refer to it as the Sunday scaries. Like you hit Sunday and you're like, oh, I gotta get like all this stuff done. And it's a real thing. Yeah, we used to have in a couple startups I was working with, like we would have a management exec team meeting like first thing Monday. So you would have to get all your stuff together on a Sunday and prepare it and push it. And it just ended up like destroying the weekend because it's like you had to publish things. I think maybe Apple is similar, but that's a sort of very different kind of business. Which makes sense if you're Apple, like if you're on the exec team at Apple, like you need to be Michael Jordan.

Suck it up. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's, that's kind of what it is. But no, I agree. And then everybody's scrambling to prepare and it ruins the weekend. And then we all have different styles. I do not procrastinate, but I've always worked with people who do procrastinate. And so like I'm victim to kind of their slow ways. Yeah. So yeah, for Forget about it, man.

Yeah, I found that like Wednesdays are really good days for like team meetings because you get the ramp-up period Monday, Tuesday, and then also the like execute afterwards Thursday, Friday. So it's like this nice period where you're kind of in the middle of things, and I found it works out pretty well. But anyways, like I have, I was thinking about like some stuff we could talk about, and there was like one big question that I'm curious about that I think a lot of people would be interested in, especially in the space you're in, like just working with really high quality talent, especially at like the executive level across a number of different industries. Like, I'm super curious, what are, what would you say are the things, quality attributes, whatever that separate, let's say the like really, really high performers, like top 1%, whatever that metric is from You know, sort of the middle of the road approach, like if you had a normal distribution, what's that long tail of like super excellence that you've seen over your career? Or is there anything? Is it just completely, it's unknown and you just never know?

No, that's a great question. I definitely think there's some attributes for sure. I think a lot of it, you know, boils down to soft skills and EQ. To be honest with you, as well as like energy levels and panache. And what I've found is that, you know, companies, you know, at a certain level in the executive sector, you know, I don't want to say skills are at parity, but a lot of times they are.

Yeah, right.

And so what really could be a big differentiator with bringing somebody to the table is gonna be kind of their soft skills and how they interact with the executive leadership team. Additionally too, you know, I do a lot of like CTO searches, CFO searches, You know, CRO and the, and the like, just executive sector, right?

Right.

I think what I've seen, the common theme with the folks that make it to that level is typically the energy level that they have. It's also the confidence, but candidly, it's somebody you could also go have a beer with. You know what I mean? They're not robotic. They're a person just like the masses. They just happen to maybe have a little bit of a different aptitude or different understanding in regards to their actual skill set or discipline and focus.

Yeah, that's interesting. I feel like, I feel like a lot of people wouldn't necessarily think that way. They think it's like, I mean, just some of the conversations I've had over the years with a number of different people at all levels and organizations, they would think, and I think part of it is company culture too that you grew up in. If you were one of those like very long-term people in a specific company and you've just been indoctrinated into this, Let's say culture of like really intense politics or like backstabbing or hard charging. And so the softer like EQ stuff kind of goes out the window. But you're right, I'm even like, I scroll through TikTok for R&D, right? And like some of these new video platforms.

Right.

And I see people talking about like, you know, the difference in a candidate was we would go out to a restaurant. There was this one story, We go out to a restaurant.

How they treat the waiter? Is that where we're headed? Or putting salt on their food first without trying it?

Well, it was actually how they interacted with the waitstaff.

Yeah.

And, you know, quote unquote, people that had no ability to, quote, interact or like affect your daily life. Like, how do you interact with people like that? And it's— I've seen it before too. And it's like, are you kind? Do you even say thank you? Or is it like, get out of here kind of thing? And it's just like, To me, it comes back to the core value of just respect, like just respect, respectful communication. Like you can do so much in your life if you're just respectful to people.

I think it's super telling, to be honest with you. I mean, that's again, I feel like part of my job is to not only kind of vet people from a capability perspective, but are they going to interact well with the executive leadership team that's existing? And I think EQ is an often underappreciated indicator of future success. And I totally agree. If somebody doesn't have good manners, I mean, if I'm having— I literally have 2 conversations with executives, if not 3. And the first one literally is around quality of fit. And it's just sitting, it's having a 15-minute to 20-minute conversation with them talking about their background, their companies, what, you know, what are they trying to accomplish in the next, you know, 1, 3, 5 years? How does that map back to the company? But then also, how do they handle themselves, you know, during the course of the conversation? Are they cordial? You You know, they do— I ask how they're doing and they ask how I'm doing. We have a nice amount of small talk and I know it sounds trivial, but it's like, to me, it's super, super important also too. Like even at the executive level, are they sending a thank you note to the people that they've interviewed with and trying to kind of have an actual relationship with them or is it completely transactional? And I think those are things that companies and executives that are looking to hire leadership should really, really look for. And then go back to the point. earlier about IQ and these big companies. Soft skills are not always important to these big companies. And a lot of times when they promote from within, they do have these kind of, they've created these robots, you know, very, very reactional. And it is more around kind of IQ, but it's also around playing the political game. And I feel like people that are high EQ, sometimes they can play political game, but maybe that's something that's disinteresting to them.

Yeah.

Right. They don't want to play politics. That's why maybe they want to be an executive consultant. Right. But it is important to connect with the people that they're actually working with.

That's interesting. Do you, I mean, it sounded like when you work with a company, do you, you said this EQ with the executive team, it's almost that group dynamic like that, like the business school group project thing. But do you actually, are you able in some situations to go into the company and observe or interact with that group dynamic in like an executive team meeting and sort of get that, it's almost the unspoken thing. It's like the vibration where then when you're trying to match with the people, are you able to do that? Or is that, do companies even realize like that might be super duper helpful?

So I think that's a great point and I haven't had much success having a panel discussion per se with the executives. But if I'm hiring for an executive, be it full-time or fractional, one of the that I have is that I have to sit down with a 30-minute, you know, 30-minute discussion via video at the very least, if not face to face with the leadership team that's actually hiring. Right. And so anybody who's involved in the decision-making process, like literally I require I have to have a conversation with them. Additionally too, though, I generally suggest, and I think most companies do this anyways, but suggest that the companies who are hiring do a panel interview where literally they've got their top executives in the room. along with this person and it's kind of a conversation so they really can figure out the group dynamic because that's a big, big, big, big piece when you're talking about strategy and executives and not just kind of tactical work.

Right.

You know, it's gonna be— there's gonna be egos, there's a lot going on here. And if you don't get the right folks in the room and also too, if we don't have access to the right folks that are gonna be making the decisions, you know, we're dead from go from a search perspective. You know, if you really can't sit down with the person who's making the decision and understand you know, what attributes they're looking for and kind of what their attitude is, then there's no way we can map back somebody else's personality to the person who's hiring.

Yeah, that's really interesting. There was, I mean, one of the biggest problems that I've found, I don't know, maybe this is, I mean, sample size small, right? So it's my experience only. I don't, I'm not taking from like your sample size, but I've often found the alignment challenge. Is very difficult while you're operating like a high growth business because each leader of the department, so to speak, if you're, I don't know, whatever the org chart is, let's just say it's like a circular Apple style org chart, but you're over a certain area. And so being able to like take everything that happened in the last week, put that into some method to communicate that to the rest of the group very rapidly, get like mind meld across the entire business. And then be able to discuss that and then also have alignment on like, where are we going? Like, what's the target market? Like, what do we need to build to get there? Like, how are our operational things getting? And it's that alignment that becomes such a challenge. And then especially as that filters throughout the organization. So one of the people I had on the podcast, I was introduced by a former business school friend, great dude, and her name's Deb. And she's a PhD and is writing, almost finished with a book on collaboration. And she talks about this. And then there's another guy who worked at Google for like 10 years. I won't name his name, but it's like this headwind that you hit where, especially in larger organizations, like just that collaboration and alignment becomes almost the biggest challenge in the organization because everyone is like, the polarity is focused in different areas. And so we can't pull the full ship forward. So it becomes a super challenging thing. So it's like, yeah, your role is super difficult because it's like trying to match EQ. I mean, I almost feel like you'd be like a soothsayer. I mean, I almost feel like you would be really great as like a— we did this in one organization, but it's almost like this sit-in third party who identifies all of this like other stuff that's going on.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, like this thing over here, you need to tweak this thing. Like this person might be a better fit. And you would know within like 5 minutes, like what's going on. Have you ever done anything like that?

No, but I think that's super, super, super interesting, honestly. And going back to a point you made earlier about a panel and kind of having my organization sit in the panel and getting to know the executives all at the same time is important. What you mentioned as well, you know, I think is interesting as well because you got all these people that are operating within these silos and then their marching orders you know, kind of generally are only like, you know, in regards to their own silo. And so that's kind of what they're singularly, you know, focused on. And I think, again, not to harp on EQ and all this stuff, but also like being an effective communicator is also important at the executive sector because, you know, their job is to make sure that everybody's kind of on the same page and marching in concert towards the common goal. And I think that's difficult and it's difficult to suss out as well, to be honest with you, as to kind of who's gonna be able to to orchestrate getting all these different silos that have their own operating orders on the same page and in harmony.

Have you found or have you seen any tricks or tips? Is it like more writing or video or face-to-face or like one-on-one Slacks? Or have you, have you come across people who's like, you know what, I cracked the nut on this thing, like how to communicate and align individuals and this is it. And if everybody knew, The world would be a wonderful place.

No, I think it's a great question. I think there's, you know, there's books and there's, you know, courses and executive coaching and all kinds of things. People are so inclined. I do feel like some people have innate gifts, you know, as it pertains to storytelling. I mean, Steve Jobs, the perfect example of storytelling, just an innate human being and has the ability. But no, I think that's kind of part of this whole thing is, again, storytelling. But we also, that's why I think, you know, panel interviewing is Very interesting to kind of suss that out. That's why we've got a, you know, 2 to 3 prong process depending on how senior the person is, because each discussion you get, you get additional nuggets, right? And I've had conversations where the initial, you know, the initial 2 conversations were fantastic. I knew I was gonna put this person forward, and by the 3rd time I talked to them, they kind of, their mask slipped a little bit, right? And so companies having these different touchpoints in different areas to evaluate candidates is important to kind of suss that out. And sometimes depending on the role, you know, having them, you know, put together a presentation while that seems, you know, a bit academic, I think could be a really telling component as well on how they present, how they think strategically, handle, you know, objections and also communicate their ideas. Yeah.

Yeah, I've found that too. I've started doing that as like just being so focused on value creation. It's like, not even if I'm working with you yet, like I'm just gonna do part of the work and just send it to you. And like, here it is, like this is what it's like to work with me. This is how my brain works. This is work product. It's in a very simple format. You don't need to spend 8 hours trying to figure out what the heck's going on in my mind. And it's like, because at the end of the day, I found all of this stuff is just fit. It's like core values fit, technical fit, like as you say, EQ fit. And it seems like if more of us just focus truly on trying to figure out fit, especially once you get, I mean, because everyone has the skills, right? Like, especially in startup land, it's like, I've been in startups forever and like we've had exits and like we've grown stuff by X and it's like, and we manage teams and we've built things and it's like we've grown revenue and it's like, okay, at some point it's like everybody has the same.

So have I. What's next?

Yeah, right? Like what's different? Like what's new? That's compelling. So I think that's interesting.

I think what you brought up is interesting too, though, and you may be an anomaly of sorts. I've literally bumped into, I'd say it's 50/50, you know, 50% in this camp, 50% in the other camp where folks want to spend time, you know, creating value and saying, hey, here's a blueprint, right? I'm gonna put in some hours, you know, just to show you that I'm the right person I'm invested in. And the other half are like, no, I'm not gonna, that's part of my IP, you know, I'm not gonna provide you with anything and you're wasting my time. And then one other point, you know, in regards to kind of companies sussing out, you know, if the individual's right, you know, it's funny, I still have to give some coaching to the executives, but I mean, their job should be to suss out the company just as, you know, and interview them just as hard, right, as the company's interviewing them. I mean, times have changed, you know. And so if you're not doing that, that's a missed opportunity because you yourself, if you're this high caliber individual, you need to make sure the people you're working with you know, or commensurate with kind of your skill set and where you're trying to go as well. Otherwise, you know, they're gonna ask you to leave in 6 to 9 months or you're gonna want to leave in 6 to 9 months and then everybody loses.

Yeah, yeah, it's a handshake. It really is. It's a partnership. And ideally, it's like we all have different puzzle pieces and like our puzzle piece fits in with all the rest and then you make a nice beautiful painting as a result of everyone's skills and you're all focused on the same North Star or vision or goal and You just charge down the field and then it starts being fun instead of work. And I mean, that's hard. It feels like it should be easier to find like very strong culture, respect, business that makes money, and then like having fun on the job because like we all get it. We got the quiet work time, we're going like positive reaction in the market, but it's really rare. It's really rare.

Well, in my opinion, And it's because everybody's posturing. Like everybody's posturing. The companies are, oh, we're so great, we're the best, you know, you need to work with us. Meanwhile, you know, the executives themselves are selling themselves where I've got, you know, all these skill sets, etc. And I feel not to go all Silicon Valley because there's just, they've got their own situation out there with, but there are books like Radical Candor. And I think there is some truth and some interest to books like that where, you know, if we were just a little bit more transparent on, look, this is what I can do. This is where my, you know, my shortfalls are. And here's what I'm looking accomplish and the company could do that, you know, in the same token, I feel like we'd be a lot, you know, relationships would be a lot quicker and it wouldn't take that 6-9 months to really figure out where the bones are buried.

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting you say that. So my partner, she's an executive creative director, has worked in branding and advertising and creative for 15-20 years and almost all of the briefs from the tier 1 brands, sports, entertainment, beauty, consumer, you name it, anything dealing with consumers is like one word, which is authenticity. And I think that's the reason that some of the social influencers have become, have their followings have grown so quickly because you see them every day. There is no mask, like bedhead, no makeup. Like this is, there's, this is who I am. Like take it or leave it. Like if you like me and we vibe, cool. If not, no big deal. And it reminds me, I mean, this is weird. I think I'm— I can't remember, I told this to somebody recently, but 10 years ago Lil Wayne, the rapper, had a, um, he had a documentary. And in the documentary, he had gotten this face tattoo of like a lightning bolt on his forehead, which, awesome. Like, if that's your thing, do it. Like, do you, you know, probably not great.

Go for it.

Probably not great for me in a business setting, but for him, Works. But he said one thing, there was this really interesting moment, he said, I will go into an elevator and certain people will move closer to me and certain people will move further from me just by the way that I look, right? And he's like, he essentially said something, I love that because it's a self, like, it's a self-filtering system.

Yeah, you're filtering out.

Yeah. And here's my thing, like, if you're not authentic, if you're not who you actually are, Then what you're putting out there is you could get matched up with something that's gonna be a bad fit for them, for you. And so maybe you win in the short term by like faking it or putting on a mask or doing whatever, but in the long term, you're like so damaged. And here's the worst thing, like, if you lose because of who you're not, you will never know.

Right.

So like, better to lose for who you are But even, and then figure out what like really you are and what you want and what you wanna do. And then you can win based on who you actually are. And that's so much better. I mean, maybe I'm like the only dude on the planet that thinks this way, but like I just, and what you said with like authenticity and the mask, I just see this coming. It's like 2023, more of those vibes coming through everywhere.

Well, what's super funny is literally 5 minutes before I jumped on your podcast, I did a LinkedIn post on authenticity.

Really?

I found a video from a year and a half ago, and I used to do videos for my company, and I would spend literally an hour and a half to 2 hours just making it perfect. And of course, you know, the output is never perfect, but I found a blooper and I posted on LinkedIn. And most of the bloopers I couldn't, I couldn't post because, you know, I'm cussing because I'm frustrated. I'm 45 minutes in. I haven't found this gold yet, but I posted it. And I say everybody talks about authenticity, you know, one's authentic self. You know, yada yada yada. But, but I put it out there just to say, hey, like, you know, we're all, we're all human and I've never, you know, suggested that I'm perfect. But I will say, you know, I've had my own business for 6 years. It'll be 6 years in April of 2023. And each year I've gone through this kind of path, I have found myself being more authentic. And it is hard though. It's super hard. I didn't grow up with social media. I'll be 43 in May of 2023. Like, I didn't grow up with social media. I'm not on Facebook. The first post on LinkedIn, my very first post, I literally had to get my wife to hit the post button. I was that like anxious and I'm not, I'm not an anxious person. I'm an extrovert, but like that was a big, super big deal for me. And so yeah, we all want to be authentic, but I think a lot of times it's easier said than done. And I personally have struggled with like putting out, you know, hair not being perfect and all this jazz and like not wanting to get up, like stuff like that. It's vulnerable and it's hard for people to share. But I do agree, the more that I let people in, The more I feel it pays off. But also it's relieving because you feel like I don't need to be this, this person who I'm not. And to kind of wrap that up, the best advice I ever got from a boss, he told me once, you know, I was like, dude, I'm burned out on these meetings because they're all executive meetings over the course of 4 days. And he's like, the quicker that you're your actual self in these meetings, the people will like you more and you're gonna be at ease when you're in these discussions. And I took that to heart. That was, I think I was probably like 28 years old, 29 years old. And I've been trying to put that, you know, put that forward throughout my career and it's paid dividends. But it is tough, dude. It's tough to really be who you are, like on social and everywhere and kind of show the chinks in the armor because we all have them, but we also want to stay as buttoned up as possible.

Yeah. You know, it's, I think it's a, like, is it a bug or a feature? And I think that like, oh, you post something with a little misspelling. I think it's a feature, you know, it shows you're human. Like if you're too perfect, people are like, what's happening here? There's something that doesn't quite smell right. And I don't know, I think people are, people can sniff out BS so well these days that on some timescale, yeah, on some timescale and, you know, given enough time and touchpoints, like you'll sniff it out. I mean, it's just you can't keep up the act. I mean, although I guess there are like con men and con women who have been able to do it for decades, but like, I don't have that kind of, I don't have that kind of energy, you know? It's like I got enough to do every day than try to be like somebody I'm not. It's like, look, this is the way I type, this is the way I talk, like whatever, let the cards fall where they may. Let's go build some stuff, you know?

Dude, no, totally. I used to use Grammarly a little bit for my posts and then I was finding that Grammarly was not, actually representing the way that I speak, the way that I write. And it was almost like I use filler words and like the way that I write, the way that I speak. And, you know, maybe in college that's not a good thing, but I actually kind of enjoy the way that I communicate. And so I've since stopped using Grammarly. I'll use it for like a little bit here and there, but it really started taking away from like what I put out into the market and that's part of my brand. And so I agree, being authentic, having a misspelling, You know, T-H-E-R-E versus T-H-E-I-R, you know, as an example. That's okay from time to time. And granted, that's a pretty big mistake, but it happens, you know.

Yeah, I'm with you there. That's so funny. Well, like, what I'm also curious, like, what's your, like, 20-year vision? I mean, I'm also, what, I'm like 41 now in May, interestingly. Are we both Taurus?

I'm a Taurus, May 20th.

Yeah, I'm May— well, I'm May 8th, so we're right there. So yeah, here's the thing, right? Like, 20 years, we're, you know, what they say is like, you're quote retired. I mean, I just feel like I would probably never retire. Like, I love this stuff too much. I'm just gonna keep doing something in this space. Like, maybe not at 120%, but like, do you— I'm sure you think about this from time to time, like Where, what do you think in like 20 years? Like, where do you, what's your North Star? Do you know? Have you figured it out?

So, so great question. I think part of my retirement plan is not retiring. I'm the same way. Like, I, I just, I'm, I get up early. I'm a self-starter, always have been, always will be. You know, of course I wanna slow it down at some point, play more golf, spend time with the family, et cetera. But in an ideal scenario, I either have an exit, which is the goal of the company, to be honest with you. But if that doesn't happen, then, you know, I would love a situation where, you know, my kids maybe are out of college and I'm able to kind of hand over a family business that they can plug into and maybe have kind of a lifestyle that started earlier than mine, right? And so that's kind of what I'm all about is maximizing life and dollars are important, but so is life, you know, and I'm reaching my half-life, so to speak, at turning 43 in May, which is a bit daunting. But yeah, no, I don't really have plans to retire. But, you know, I do, I'd love to scale this business to $100 million business. And I know that's kind of pie in the sky numbers, but what's the point of having goals if they're not stretch goals? And that's kind of the, you know, the goal and the hope is that I maybe I sell off a piece at some point or my girls are able to kind of take the reins at some point in the future and keep driving the free agent into the sunset.

That, I mean, that would be amazing. It's like hand down the business to your kids, you know, and have them keep going. But I don't know, I don't think it's that pie in the sky because I spent a lot of time thinking about business. Let's just call it business and growth mechanics. And like you work backwards in the machine to like, what are the actual drivers of value and growth and all of that stuff. And if you remove all the people from a business, the business ceases to exist. At the end of all of it is people and I'll just call it talent, right? And so you are in and around that talent space and you've developed, I probably, I mean, you've had to have developed a tuning fork In things that you don't even know, you know that, you know that, you know, I mean, you're right, like you do something so long, you have all these little tiny things. I hope it's subconscious. Yeah. And so it's not out of the realm of possibility. I mean, I see all of these like applicant tracking systems and I've done some like technical product diligence on this at the transaction state. But, and then like all these talent networks have come up like You know, I won't name them all off, but like, I'm familiar with all of them. And it's like, that's super interesting. But where, like, how do you get to that scale of like true real talent where they're working together, getting into like the projects together? Because it just seems like it's all like battling armies of one fighting over, you know, little things. And it doesn't feel like anyone's really cracked the nut yet. So I, I think there might be something there that you don't even realize yet that could be pretty compelling.

No. So, so listen, I totally agree. I actually didn't come from this industry and, and I, I think that's kind of my superpower, but it's also been one of my greatest weaknesses. You know, I'll round the corner of my 6th year in 2023 and like the growth has been, the growth has been, been, been, you know, 50% year over year, you know, organic. But I could have fast-tracked a lot of success had I come to the industry because I would have known, you know, what not to do. Conversely, I've also, I feel like, approached the industry from a pretty novel and different mindset, which, you know, kind of my hypothesis is that's gonna pay dividends over the long, long term, you know, 10 years, 15 years in because I'm growing, I feel like, a sustainable and good business.

Right.

But, you know, I am still trying to figure out that nugget because that's what it's all about. You gotta— it's an arms race within this industry. there's a ton of, you know, app, you know, not application tracking systems, but like marketplaces that are popping up. A lot of people leveraging AI. I feel like nobody's cracked the code, but yet tons of money is being dumped into it. And there is some idea out there and I'm not hopeful that I'll find it, but it, you know, maybe I'll uncover it. But, you know, I do feel like we have approached it in a little bit different way than some of our competitors. And that's been good, but it's also been a bit of a slow burn. Yeah.

What do you— I mean, the world is kind of in a weird, like, place right now. I mean, it's like the economy is strong. GDP grew by 3 or 4% at the end of Q3. And but then we're hearing all this stuff about inflation and recession, and there's just like fear is running rampant. I just feel like I'm just reminded of David Goggins, like, who's gonna carry the boat? And it's like, there's very few people out there that are like showing strength and resolve and leadership in this area. And it's like, I'll carry the boat. Like, let's go.

Like, let's work. Yeah, the boat, you know what I mean? Like, that, that's, that's what we think.

So here's my question to you. Like, I mean, you've got your sort of finger on the pulse Yeah. What would it— because I mean, it's like, oh, you see all the layoffs in tech, but at the same time you see just like a massive amount of job postings all over the place. Like, what is your actual feeling of like what you're seeing happen with like actual transactions in the talent space right now?

Sure. Good question. I think real quick, there could be a misnomer with all the job ads out there because companies essentially buy a seat. So they may buy like a job seat with LinkedIn for the whole year. And whether or not that job's open, they're gonna utilize that job seat to show growth, exhibit growth, or look bigger than they are, right? So there may seem to be a lot of jobs out there, maybe there are, but that's a strategy that some companies use as well where they may not have an opening, but they paid for that seat, so they're gonna let it ride.

Yeah.

In regards to your question, yeah, it's tough. I feel like, you know, the SMB space in particular is being influenced by what's going on in big tech where they're starting to kind of, you know, lay off people. They're slowing down on hiring. And so these small companies that don't, you know, have the analysts and, or the ability rather, you know, they're seeing this and it also kind of, you know, brings fear and panic and anxiety into kind of their ecosystem. And so they're stopping as well, which is tough. I think COVID could maybe be an indicator as to what we'll see because I don't know if we're in a recession or if we're headed to one. I don't think anybody knows, to be honest with you, Sean. But during COVID what I saw is the amount of kind of full-time hires decreased, you know, the amount of like executive consultants or, you know, interim or fractional consultants increased substantially. It was almost a 1-to-1 ratio, at least in my business, to be honest with you, which is interesting. But also I saw a focus around, you know, like revenue producers. So think about like the sales side of the house, but also like, you know, profit preservation. So think like operations or like finance or accounting. And I did see a pullback on kind of the more like nice to haves, which could be like product. I'm sorry, guys, or like marketing, but like areas where like the ROI is not like, you know, very, very quick to pick up.

Right.

And that's kind of what I've seen. And I think we're gonna see the same maybe in 2023 as companies pull back. Hopefully I'm wrong. But, you know, for our business, we do both full-time as well as the contract side of the house. So we did Pretty well during COVID and I think we'll do the same in 2023. But I'd be willing to bet it's gonna be around revenue growth and then again, profit preservation.

Yeah, yeah, I see the same. I mean, it's profitable growth. And so it's like I heard this thing which was really interesting. It's like expenses are like fingernails, you need to always be trimming. And which I was like, I've never heard that. Like, that's really good both in your personal and professional life. So, but that doesn't get you to where you need to go. You can only trim expenses so much and then you're like, okay, well now what? And then you're right into like, all right, we gotta go book revenue. We need to have some kind of dollar coming in. And so we need that growth and we need people that are able to like cut through all of the BS and go—

Right.

That right there, that's where the growth is gonna come from. There's the lever, there's the hypothesis test. Let's start going. Oh wow, there's ROI on that. Keep going, pour the gasoline on and then, okay, that one stopped working. Now we need to find another one because that's just business. It's the never-ending flywheel of exploration and then exploitation, which comes from this book called The Origin of Wealth, which a really impressive strategy dude put me onto and it's a dense book, but I burned through it, but that's basically it. It's exploration to find opportunity and then exploitation to capture the value of that opportunity and then do it again over and over again.

So that's why I think, you know, the use of executive consultants, not to harp on this, but I think that's why it's so interesting because, you know, you sit there in kind of your seat and your view gets very, very myopic, right? You see the same thing over and over. So, you know, why Q&A folks or sorry, why engineers rather don't test their own their own software. They need an objective observer, an outside advisor, somebody. I think that's why, you know, that's the beauty of executive consultants is you bring somebody who preferably has industry knowledge, but they can also come in and see your blind spots. And I think that's what a lot of companies suffer from. And I mean, you could have an engagement that's 2 weeks, a month, 6 months. I mean, I'd say the mean, you know, where you're really gonna render some value is somewhere between 2 to 6 months.

Yeah.

But that could be a critical component for looking for, you know, was it Blue Oceans, right? You know, to reference the book that I've actually said. But that's the beauty of these executives because they can come in objective observer. They don't really have the political game. They want to give advice and for them, they need to add value or they're not gonna find their next opportunity.

Right. Yeah, it's just, I mean, the incentives are so purely aligned that it's like you need to do ROI and you cut through all the BS and all the departments and it's like you have executive oversight and then it's just like, Here we go. Let's go to work.

The race is on.

What was the book? The Blue Ocean? What was the—

Yeah, Blue Ocean Strategy. It's a Harvard publication and basically it's like we're all, all of us spend this time in these red oceans and it's red from the blood from the sharks, obviously. And that your strategy should be to look for kind of the blue oceans where it's uncharted territory. There's not blood in the water and you go out and become kind of a market leader. grab the market share before anybody else.

Yeah, yeah, competition is for losers, says Peter Thiel.

Exactly, exactly.

So that's good, that's good. Well, what's next for you? And I mean, you're trying to wind it down here for the end of the year, but what do you think is the big thing in Q1 that you're pushing hard on? Just sort of more of the same, like you've got your playbook ready to go, or do you feel like There's like weird little, little changes that you have to do as a result of the market, or is the process similar?

No, that's a, that's a great question. I feel like we're in kind of a, we're in strange times, to be honest with you. And I've spent some time on my planning for 2023. Kind of the mantra for 2023 is noise. And I'm gonna do a post on this, but really like I wanna make more noise, especially as I round, you know, year 6 for my business. So it's all around kind of getting the name out there, the brand out there, doing more social, more digital. But also selling less. And so like literally kind of the charter for my team is to like not necessarily quit selling because I feel like, you know, you always need to have cold calling and outreach going. But literally, how can we add more value to an organization, right? Like literally, so white papers, content, content's king. How can I get my personal brand out there, but also the company's brand out there, which is critical. So that's kind of, you know, the big point of 2023. And really, I want to flip the funnel. So less outbound, more inbound, you know, how do I get customers coming to me? And here, candidly, I wanna cherry pick. I wanna work with A and B clients, not C and D. And yes, Sean, I have a matrix of A, B, C, and D and what constitutes each in which quadrant. So that's kind of one component. Also too, you know, I've got a virtual marketplace that I created 5 years ago or so. It's cost me a lot more money than I thought it would. It's taken a lot more time to roll out. And I'm gonna roll out a new MVP, a new iteration, hopefully in the next 2 to 3 weeks. And You know, my goal really is to get that just a lot of visibility in 2023 because I'm very passionate about interim executives. I feel like they can provide a tremendous amount of value to growth companies. And I really need to kind of get that message out there and have that attached to my personal brand because I'm passionate about it. I'm excited about it. And I feel like that shows through with a lot of companies. And that's the ones that are effective at that messaging are the ones that ultimately win and find the blue oceans.

Yeah. Well, yeah, when it goes live, like, let me know. I'll certainly share it out. And I'm actually really, so 2 things, I'm really curious about your 4 quadrants. I wanna know what the dimensions are on it. Can you share? And then we can talk about the whole, like, podcast, like, growth thing that we're gonna do on your show next.

Sure. So at a high level, it has to do with basically, like, price sensitivity, right? Like, which company are price sensitive, which are not, which pay on time. Also too comes the executive leadership team. So literally almost like a scoring process for companies. So executive leadership team, what industries are they in? Because not all industries are created equal. Some are really exciting, some are boring, some move quick, some move slow. Who pays quickly? I may have already said that already. And then ultimately, you know, like feedback loop, right? So like, who do we actually work with that gets back to us in a timely manner? And that's how, that's at a high level how we actually score kind of our clients, put them in different quadrants. When I first started, I think my first client was a D client. I fired them about 6 months later. And honestly, like Murphy's Law, is it Murphy's Law, the 80/20 rule? It reigns supreme here as well because you'll find that, you know, 80% of your time is spent with the clients that pay 20% of your revenues. And so that's a tough proposition why focusing on A and B Clients is really it's critical.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It just comes back to like communication, respect, pay your bills, like have budget, and do what you say you're gonna do.

But it's not though. But but it's not though. You know what I mean? Like a lot of like it's it's it's uncanny, and and a lot of people too. This goes back to the mask. A lot of people put on this front that yes, we're professional organization. Everybody loves working here. But then when we peel back the COVID a little bit, we realize that, you know, that's, that's not really the case.

Yeah. Have you found ways to—

That's part of our due diligence.

Have you found ways to suss that out? Because I actually talked about this with a friend on a different episode. Like, you would go— I mean, he experienced this. Like, he went to work for somebody and like the culture and trying to figure it all out all seemed great. And within the first couple of days, he's like, oh God, what happened and then like had to leave very quickly because it was almost a 180 from what like it appeared to be. And I know I've got another very close friend right now that's going through an interview process with a well-known brand and he's very heavily trying to figure out what some specific cultural things are and it's a complete unknown. And so, It has very large implications, especially when you have a young family that you also need to support. So have you found any, like, hacks or tricks that to, like, help people, like, suss out, like, is this a good fit for me?

So, so that's a great question. And yeah, there's some juicy nuggets, but I think this goes back to also, you know, as the candidate also interviewing, the company. And, you know, if there's some gaps, if there's some holes, I literally, you know, challenge the candidates to go ask for all the information that they need upfront, you know, in order to really suss it out. And candidly, I think, you know, savvy companies would want that from a future employee, right? They want people that are inquisitive, that want to understand how the product works. Like, for instance, if you're in a product role or a sales role or marketing role for that matter, and you haven't seen the actual product and you haven't done a demo, Yeah. I mean, honestly, I feel like that's just part of your due diligence.

Yeah.

So that's one component of it. You know, did they really give you access and insight into the company? I've got some clients where they literally will talk about the revenue, they'll talk about the profit margin, and this is to a candidate. And to me, that's appropriate, especially if you're hiring the leadership team, not necessarily you're talking kind of more of a lower-level asset. But if you really want somebody to buy into what you're selling, then you need to provide them access. And so I think that's important. So if they're, if they're not forthcoming with information, but also too, in general, this goes back to soft skills as well. Is the leader, you know, you send a thank you note, are they responsive? Did you connect on LinkedIn? You know, are they actively helping you move through the process or are there red flags along the process? And typically if there are red flags along the process, like the actual candidate experience, which I think is critical, and I've done a lot of like, you know, writing on the candidate experience, I think the way they treat the candidate, I mean, do you think they're gonna treat their customers? any different or the actual employees than the candidate? They're not, period. Show me, you know, prove me otherwise, but it's not gonna happen.

I, you know, everyone talks about customer experience or it's moving from like user experience to customer experience and what you just said, candidate experience, because talent is a leading indicator of success for the organization, both external market and internal, like maybe they're I mean, I'm sure it's something you say a lot within your sector of the industry, but there might be something productizable there with your platform is like better candidate. I mean, that is the North Star, which is like it's not gonna feel like garbage to go through an interview process. Like we self-select, we spend time on fit upfront. So when you both start and meet and have a conversation and there's like The next step on the process is like very well defined and it's like, here you go and it's 2 to 3 days, whatever, and then decision point and it's like there's no like, okay, well, what's the next step? And then like, do I follow up? Do I wait? Like, do I send something? And it just becomes this like, and then the people on the client side, like you forget and you're managing too many candidates and you're just like, I don't know who's where. It's not like ATS, it's almost like, how does it feel? You know, it's like the brand of that.

Yeah. No, I literally, I've done a lot of writing on this and I feel like, you know, a candidate experience can tarnish a brand just like a customer experience can. And if you have a bad experience, like as a candidate, you're not gonna buy the company's products, nor would you recommend your friend. You know what I mean? And so I totally agree with you too. That companies should have this, you know, like lined out. And, you know, when candidates fall into the void or black hole, or, you know, they, they're unable to get feedback on why maybe they didn't get a job, again, red flags. And I'd be reluctant to move forward if you have any questions. And I did write down, you know, the candidate experience, and maybe that could be a way we could position it. Because again, going back to A and B clients, A clients and B clients actually do give a crap about the candidate experience. And I refuse to work with companies that don't.

I mean, honestly, so I've been on both sides of this equation, hiring, being hired, and it is something that I've, because I've gone through it, I know what it's like on the other side. So one of the things that I've found, especially in like startup land and especially in a day like today and what's been happening with like tech layoffs and everything, is I made it very clear upfront, like, do we have the budget? Do we have the budget? Do we have the budget? Because I'm not even gonna post anything If you tell me we don't halfway through the process or we hire somebody and then have to let them go within some small amount of time because that makes my brand look bad.

Totally.

And here's what's happened even through all of that, didn't matter, still had to do it. And I'm just like, I had to apologize profusely and it's like, what, like, do you know how to run your business is what it comes down to. Do you know how to read a financial statement and like do your financial model where you can see like every month what your cash flow is? Can you support this? Yes or no? And if not, don't do it. And this whole like rubber band hire and fire like really quick, like it's AWS with people's lives.

Yeah.

I just don't like it. Like I am on one side of that very like dark line in my mind and So yes, I think that that thing with the right companies, because then when a candidate comes through and you're like, look, I can almost guarantee you that you're going to have a good candidate experience in here and we've validated budget and like it's fit. And if it doesn't fit, fine, good, that's great. We'll find something that does fit. But if you go through and then a month in, they're like, oh, sorry, see you later, we ran out of budget. It's like, Are you kidding me? Like, that's no, that's no bueno.

Yeah, no, or, or just another example, you know, you're going through 10, 12, 13 interviews, you know, to, to a job where there's, there's no budget, or you take the job and a month later you're laid off after you uprooted your family to move across the US. And I agree, again, I think that's indicative of company culture, like candidate experience. Going back to your friend, I mean, if there's, if there's red flags, Then he or she needs to do their due diligence and try to kind of suss those out or, you know.

Well, that's the weird thing is it's like there haven't been any and it's been like this weird—

Green lights. Well, that's another red flag.

Yeah. And so then you start like getting weird, like this might be too good to be true. And like everyone's like very thoughtful and let me hear what you think. And it's a little more relaxed and people are more casual and you get the time to think and they listen. And he's really worried about, you know, like I have to pick up my kids from school. Is that okay if I run out for 30 minutes and pick up my kids and then come back? Like that should be okay in the world we live in today in a remote culture. But some companies would say it's okay and then you leave for 30 minutes and it's like the wheels have fallen off of the wagon and like you've committed the ultimate sin. And so it's just like little stuff like that can be The difference between getting somebody who's like world-class to join your company and I don't want to be a part of it, like just that tiny little, like 30 minutes a day. And so that's what he's kind of trying to suss out right now. And yeah, I think at the end of the day, the only thing you can do is just ask point blank, like, if my kids are sick, I need to take a day off. If I need to pick them up from school, I need to just go and I'll make up the time somewhere else. It's not a big deal.

I think it's important too for people to be able to share, like, these are the things that are important to me, right? Like, money's important. Maybe that's one, maybe it's two. Like, for me, la familia, like my family and quality of life is paramount and has been for the last 10 years or so. Number 2 is money. You know, just go kind of go through the process and I'd be upfront with sharing that with the client as well because agreed. I mean, that could be a make or break. I mean, it certainly would be for me if I went back to corporate America and I was unable to Attend like soccer games, pick my kids up on time.

Right.

Not the right fit.

Yeah, it's just a non-starter. Like, like don't mess with my family. Like, no, hands off. Yeah, hands up. Here come the claws. Yeah.

Cool.

Well, we're— this has been awesome. We're almost out of time, maybe 5 minutes left. I mean, anything else that's on your mind that you've been thinking about? Anything really? Because I mean, I feel like that's super valuable if it's on your mind. I know people would be like, interesting. Is there anything you've been noodling on these days or is it more just like trying to finish the year strong so I can rest with my family?

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a combination. So trying to finish the year strong, trying to get some rest and respite in. I mean, we talked about it at the beginning of the call. That's super critical, especially in You know, entrepreneurial world where the lines between, you know, home life and work are so blurred can be a bit difficult. So yeah, rest is important, but also planning for 2023. And again, you know, I've said this for probably 3 years, but like, how do I literally effectively flip the funnel? Like, I'm really trying to figure out how to drive inbound, but like the right kind of inbound, the A and B clients. And I haven't figured that out, but that's really what's top of mind for me is like, how do you effectively get your name, your brand, your company, you know, in front of the right people at the right time? Because Right. What I do, it's strategic, but it's also very transactional. You know, you need me when you need me and you don't need me when you don't need me. And so how do I show up at the appropriate times with the appropriate message?

Yeah.

And, you know, done a decent job about that, but we can always do better. And I feel like that could be the difference with my company 10xing next year versus, you know, doing 50% better again.

Yeah. Well, I, we kind of talked about this over email and offline and I know we're gonna cover it in your session and I haven't gotten around to recording it. For my thing, but I did, I spent like 2 months testing every media format, text, image, audio, video, even talent, and then also testing different distribution channels, like every social channel, email, everything else. And I've found the one that sort of works in a professional services area, like which shouldn't have. I feel like, but maybe it's just, you know, product market fit with the target and then the messaging and then the content, those lined up. And then I mean, like I told you, it went from like 0 to 15,000 subscribers in 60 days, which is crazy. So it was like that hypothesis testing mindset across everything. And then the one that works is like, it's almost duh when it shows up. So. Yeah, I'll, we'll talk about it on your thing and I'll do my thing and I'll share it with you and whatever. And I mean, I, it can't hurt. You just gotta be out there really. And I think be out there and authentic and like, here's the actual stuff I'm seeing. And I think that just resonates. It just does. It's like, it's not bullshit. It's like, I'm a real human being and like, here's what I actually think. Like, take it or leave it. I'm operating in this industry. Like, There's some truth here. There's some truth here.

Yeah, no, I mean, these are the things I like and like entrepreneurs suck sometimes, you know, entrepreneurs suck sometimes. Other times it's great, you know what I mean? Like that's also too what I'm trying to put out there as well is focus more on kind of like I've got a podcast, you know, find that next gear and it's all about the plight of the entrepreneur and really kind of shining a light onto what it's really like because all you read about is, you know, exits and, you know, yachts and all this BS and It does happen, but not often.

I'll leave you with one final video I saw. I think it was the founder of FedEx who sold his business for like $1 billion after 35 years or something like this. I could have the name wrong. And he's like, the interviewer asked, well, what did you feel? Did it feel different? And he was like, oh yeah, it was like I felt like I could finally breathe. And you saw him take this thousand-yard stare for a second. And you could see in his mind, he was seeing and feeling all of those experiences over the 3 decades of being an entrepreneur. And what he said was like, I wish there was less uncertainty. And it just, it kind of hit this octave where he was like, just a lot of uncertainty. And I think that's what it is in entrepreneurship and startups and even just big business. It's just so much uncertainty that You just have to be agile and like, I show up every day and we're gonna figure it out and that's it. And we got a team and we're all like trying to figure it out and that's it. That's all you can do. We're just humans, you know, we can only do what we can do.

No, agreed. I've embraced that I wake up at 3 AM every day, every morning, you know, that's, I go back to sleep, but I wake up just thinking, thinking, thinking. I've learned how to embrace that. But I agree, it's perseverance and embracing uncertainty because the uncertainty I feel like is what makes or breaks folks because you can sit there and wonder, is it gonna work? Is it not? But if you persevere through that, hopefully it'll be okay.

Yeah, you just, you realize that is the normal state of affairs and then you go, all right, well, let's just get to work.

Yeah, exactly.

That's it.

Awesome. Embrace the suck.

Embrace the suck and just keep punching.

Yeah.

Well, dude, this has been phenomenal. Like, I learned some stuff. This is fun to do right before, um, the end of the year. And, uh, I just— I'm grateful for you and our friendship, and this has been awesome. So looking forward to keeping this stuff going. And, um, yeah, here's to a bright 2023. I, I honestly am bullish on it. I think there's just— the fear has pervaded everything And I think the state of the world is in a much better state than everyone feels right now. It's in a much better state. The economy is strong. Like, we're fine. Everything's fine.

I love the optimism. You know, a lot of folks in my industry are not necessarily as optimistic. I'm somewhere in between, to be honest with you. The uncertainty is a bit much to deal with currently, but I'm somewhat bullish on 2024. '23, just because I know I've got some different things that I can do. But no, man, it's been a pleasure. Appreciate you having me on. Love the discussion. Love the thought-provoking questions. And yeah, love to keep it going and look forward to having you on my podcast and, you know, probably have you on the entrepreneurial one too if you're open to it. I think we could get pretty deep and fun in that discussion. Yeah, it'd be fun.

Let's— I'm here for all the above. So let's do it.

Awesome.

Cool, man. Alright. Well, love to the family and hope the end of the year gets some rest and super chill and recharge and get ready for Awesome, man.

I appreciate it. Hey, tag me when you, when you, you know, go live with this and I'll, I'll be sure to kind of share it on my social media. And thanks again for having me on and, and happy holidays. Cheers.

For sure.

And let's, we'll talk soon.

Sounds great, man. We'll do it. I'll catch you offline. All right, brother. See you. Take care.

Bye.

Yep. Bye.