Post-Traumatic Growth | Veterans, Identity, and the 14 Year Journey of Sheepdog

Welcome to Miracle Academy Podcast. This is number two. I am truly honored and grateful to be here. We're going to talk about post traumatic growth. When I first heard about it, I was like, what the heck is ptg? Which was mind blowing for me as an individual.

Sheepdog is not a post traumatic stress movie. Sheepdog is a post traumatic growth movie. It takes you to those darkest places to show you that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

The trauma is a moment in time. Growth is a journey the body does not forget.

It does not.

It does not forget.

Everything you've ever dreamed is about to be taken away from you if you don't pull off this lie right now.

We don't compare our traumas. Our pain is relative. We're. It's okay to not be okay.

This is where we are as humanity right now. This is what we do inside of this Miracle Academy container so we don't have to stay in our trauma cycles anymore. So welcome to Miracle Academy Podcast. This is number two. I am truly honored and grateful to be here with some amazing individuals that flew in from different coasts of the country. One from the west coast, one from the east coast. So I've got Steven Grant with me and Matt Dallas. They have just come out. Well, it's actually been 14 years in the making a movie called Sheepdog. What we're gonna do is we're gonna talk today about not only the movie itself, but some elements of the film that I feel. And I get tingles when I think about this that are wildly transformational, not only for who the film is for, and we're gonna talk about that here in a minute, but. But just for all of humanity. We're going to talk about some topics around post traumatic growth, which was mind blowing for me as an individual when I first heard about it, because I was like, what the heck is ptg? And you're going to hear some things about this, how this has impacted the veteran community, how we can actually get this out to the world so that we can truly support individuals that have been impacted not only from the veteran side, but just any individual that has gone through traumatic cycles in their lives. So what we're going to dig into today is, is not only just the journey of how the movie was made, where it came from, the motivations behind it, certain traumatic elements that each of us have been through. If you guys. My story, if you've gotten to me, but we'll talk about what those things mean and then how we can find not only the growth edges of Them. But specifically why this is such an important film in this day and age, especially as we go one into the year of the horse, 2026, when this is going to be released, and. And what this truly means for humanity now as a starting point for something different, so we don't have to stay in our trauma cycles anymore. So, Matt, Stephen, welcome. Thank you guys for coming all this way. Thanks for having us. Yeah, yeah. This is awesome. This is awesome. So I'm truly honored you guys are here first. Let's like dig into who you are first as individuals, because if they don't know you because you are the center point of this, it's hard for them to really understand the film.

Right, right.

And why this is important, why you guys took the time on this, why is it coming to Emergence today?

Sure.

Tell me a little bit about your. Tell me about your journey and.

Yeah, because we have a collective journey, obviously, on this. But the impetus for Sheepdog was an experience I had in 2011 where my car broke down a few hours north of Los Angeles and I called the local tow truck company and. And I had a three hour drive into the city and my driver, the tow truck driver had began to open up about his life. He, you know, he began to open up about some of the marital issues he was having, the pressures and challenges of being a father of three, financial hardship, and then. And then all the medication that he was on that was tethered to his military service, to his multiple deployments overseas. And so when I got back to Los Angeles, I thanked him for getting me home safe. And I could see a look in his eyes that there was likely comfort to maybe never see me again. And why that really stuck with me was because throughout the drive into the city, he kept saying to me, I can't believe I'm telling you this. I don't even know you. I've never told this to my wife. I've never told this to a therapist. And so for me, that was like a very seminal moment and a teachable moment of, like, how folks that, you know, and I have my own childhood trauma and stuff like that. But how eye opening that was, that someone could sit there and listen without prejudice, and it was easier to never see them again, to share that personal moment with. And it was during that time, it was like that month I was shooting a Western with Matt on the Paramount Ranch, and I shared this experience with Matt and I said, I can't get this right in my head. Like, man, there's gotta be more like him. And I've been journaling about it, and I think I might go out on the road this summer and just see if anybody will speak to me in the veteran community or the mental health community and find out, are there more men and women like this tow truck driver? And that was. And I said to Matt at the time, I don't know that this is going to be a screenplay. I don't know what this is going to be. I just want to uncover the truth. But if it does become a screenplay, I think you should play my best friend. And I'll let Matt tell you why we got to that place. But I think you should play my best friend. But the caveat is, you need to see this for yourself, so you need to come with me.

I love that.

And he agreed to do it. And that was the summer of 2011.

Okay. Okay, so then you go on that. So now that's amazing. What western were you guys on together?

Oh, yeah, it was a classic. It was base. No, no, no, let's go into it. No, no, because this is funny. Hold.

Yeah, okay, go ahead.

So. Because I'll set this up for you. Okay. So it was a western about Wyatt Earp, right? It was like. At the time, it was like the last ride of Wyatt Earp. And I think they renamed it to Wyatt Earp's Revenge. But the truth is, is that all of us actors that were so keen to. To. To be in a Western, I mean, what are the odds? What are the chances of doing that? And then Val Kilmer was attached to play Wyatt Earp, right? So, you know, sometimes when you audition for something, they don't give you the full script. They only give you the sides, right? So we're. I mean, I know from my standpoint we're all thinking we're gonna work with Val Kilmer if we get the part, whatever. We were all like, yeah, we'll work for free. And so we were paid like. Like, go ahead.

It was something ridiculous. But we ended up doing the math, and we ended. We realized that it was costing us $14 a day to make this movie by the time we.

The gas. To the gas. Yeah. Branch. Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

But. But what was amazing about that, what truly was, was that we bonded, all of us. And, yes, Val Kilmer was shot up in San Francisco on a totally different location. And, you know, we never got to work with him in the end, but we got to spend a lot of, like, quality time with our horses and out in a totally different environment that we never would otherwise be in. Usually on a soundstage or, you know, but what's interesting about that was that had we not have taken that leap of faith and look, we were all cool to make -$14 a day because we just were a part of something we thought was really special. And it was. But it was during that time where Matt and I had bonded and I had shared that experience that I don't think on any other set you would have, because I wasn't. He was a stranger. So I wasn't prepared to talk about this deeply personal experience, you know, with somebody. And because it was so low budget, we were like, in a. In a eight banger honey wagon. So you literally have, like, this thin piece of, you know, divider between, you know, each room, so you can literally hear the other person breathe. Right? So you're just like, let's just open it up. So as we were hanging out, that's where that bond began, and that's where I was able to share this experience and then have a month to kind of figure out, like, what do we do with this? And, you know, and what that call to action would. Would become that summer.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah.

I love it. I love it.

Yeah.

And so Matt, on your end, when he was asking you about going on this journey, what came up for you? And then did you. Did you come from a long line of, like, different trauma elements as well, or is it.

I don't know that I come from a long line of trauma elements. I definitely know I don't also come from a military family other than my grandfather had served in the Navy and never really spoke about, other than, like, the tattoos that he carried on his arms. That way his grandkids knew they were from his time. But, you know, as we've seen, can be very common, is, like, when a lot of people are coming home from their service, they don't necessarily want to burden their family and friends with their. Whatever their trauma or their demons that they may be battling with. So we didn't. So for me, going into it, it was kind of a. A. I was excited to be a part of a project from the ground up and to be able to explore it from its inception and also just to immerse myself into this world. But it was, I guess, like, sharing the trauma like this. I guess. I don't know. It's interesting just sitting here thinking about, like, sort of the. What I'd spoken with Stephen about. So the time I was just at that stage of my career.

So are we talking about it?

I don't know. I thought that that's where.

I mean. No, I'm happy to, because, like, I'll lay it all out there. We've never talked about this publicly, but I'm. I'll follow your lead on it. So whatever you.

Yeah, I just. So we. I. Okay. So at that time in my career, I was not. I just was coming off a show called Kylix. Yeah. And it was pretty big hit for that time. Yeah. You know, and it was like. So there were a lot of things for me that I was, you know, like, in high school, growing up, I was never really closeted. I was, like, sort of always, like, very true to who I was. I grew up doing theater, and it was. I was so. I was always surrounded by a very welcoming, like, accepting, supportive community. I moved to Hollywood, and it was not that community. I mean, it was, I guess, in my social circles. But once I was on Kylix, y, you know, it was very different. I had publicists telling me, like, don't talk about your sexuality. We'll put you on a red carpet with, you know, every red carpet with a female or a girl on your arm. And then there was this experience, like, Perez Hilton at the time, like, made it his mission to out me. So I was, like, waking up every morning with, like, a penis drawn on my face, like, and some out. Or him calling out to his. Anybody ever hooked up with Matt Dallas? Message me so we can put your story up on our blog. And. But I guess I'm talking about this now because I know we're going to start to talk about post traumatic growth. And I never really thought about it, I guess, until this moment, how interesting that that experience was. For me, a true example of post, like, post traumatic growth is, like, from. Because I remember, like, for example, even wanting. There was. My publicist at the time was pushing me to go on Howard Stern, and I was like, I think that's a terrible idea. I should not. Like, I'm gonna get on there, and it's gonna become all about my sexuality. Especially after Perez Hilton had, like, made it his mission. And she was like, no, no, no, he's not gonna bring it up. He's not gonna bring it up. Well, within 30 seconds, it was, like, became the focus of the interview. And so it's like 30 minutes of me just lying through my teeth because I'm in sheer panic. And racing in my mind is like, everything you've ever dreamed is about to be taken away from you if you don't pull off this lie right now. And I remember And I know my dad is a fan of Howard Stern, so I'm like, oh, my God. My dad is listening to this right now. Like, what is happening? And so I just, like, I got off that interview and just, like, crawled into bed, hold the covers over my head, and was like, I just wanted to hide away from the world. Now, like, having dealt with that and all these years later, I've, like, realized sort of.

So he shared that story with me on set.

Yeah. Yeah. And on the wider upset.

On the wider side.

Yeah. And. And. And it was like watching Matt relive it right where I truly saw, like, imagine a real witch hunt for you. Right. It's not on your own terms of, like, defining who you are and, you know, and someone, like, taking that from you, but worse, as Matt described, like, taking your livelihood, like, taking bread off another man's table. No. And I was so affected by that, and I was so angry and so frustrated. And I remember I turned to him as he was, like, saying it, and he was smiling through the pain, much like the tow truck driver. That's when I went home that night from set and was like. And I. I. That was sort of the beginning of, like, where I was like, I think he should play my best friend. Like, I. Because I'm not wired that way. I don't smile through the pain. I'll go off into the corner and suffer in silence and, you know, internalize and so on. So it's an. It's a. To me, it's like. It's almost like a virtue, you know? And anyway, so. But that. That, for me was where I felt like he was part of a marginalized group. And you got to remember, like, that was 2011 early. So this is like, the industry had changed a lot since then. Right. But there was a time. Well, there still is, to be fair. Like, that was career ending. And to some extent, it was for that particular job to some. And I'll say that. You won't say it, but. And so to me, going into our research and Matt's approach to it and his humanity. Right. That really came across, and it's felt in the performance. I mean, it's a stunning performance that Matt gives in it that has all those qualities that I wanted in the character of Daryl that I knew you could not dial in. Like, you couldn't just phone it in. You had to. You had to have seen it yourself and then be the vessel to carry that. Right. Which I'm. You know, which I'm so excited for. People, especially people that are a fan of Matt's work over the years, but to see such a transformational performance, you know, not just gaining the 47 pounds to play the part, but just, you know, the whole. The whole delivery and.

Just.

Yeah, I'm just. I'm just so proud of you, buddy.

Yeah. I want to ask, do you mind if I go deeper into that? Go for a second?

Yeah.

When. When you talk about it now, how does it feel today, like, and where do you feel it in your body? Somatically?

I'm going to be honest, like, I started telling that story. The adrenaline is. Because he's right. We haven't really spoken about it publicly. I feel it, I think, in my chest. Yeah. I don't know, like, the anxiety that's like that. The weight of it.

Yeah. You still feel the anxiety of it. Like, when you go back to that time.

I don't so much feel the anxiety of that. I feel like it's the residual nervousness to be talking about it openly in a space that could end up somewhere, I guess. You know, talking about it on a podcast or here in front of a camera is totally different, you know, than having a conversation, the two of us in a trailer, or you and I and, you know, over a beer or something or just. So. Yeah, I think it's the. Even though I know, like I came out in 2013 and I know that I'm publicly out, but it's like, I guess talking about it now, it just reignites the. Like is it. Which I guess also speaks to a bigger thing that, like, why, even at this, like in 2025am, I still get a little feeling of nervousness to talk about something that I should not be nervous because about.

Because it's trauma. Because that's like that to me. My. Just my perception of it is like, to me, because I remember that day is the clearest day. Like you were shaking, telling, reliving it, you know, and I'm not trying to sound over dramatic. I'm saying, like. Because I remember having that conversation with Matt and saying, like, you know, we go out there, I don't know what we're going to see. I don't know what stories we're going to be told, but we will always be judged by our humanity and what's really important to bring this full circle. When we were at the Beverly Hills Film Festival and John Savage, you know, from the Deer Hunter, came up to us after the awards ceremony, we were the only film that had won two awards. We were very blessed and just so humbled. And Matt and I, when we had always talked about the humanity of our characters, right. Because these are ordinary people that we depict that are put into extraordinary circumstances. So to get to meet John Savage and be able to tell him, like, hey, your performance in the Deer Hunter, that was like a guiding light for us of, like, if we can have the humanity that John Savage brings to his character in Deer Hunter, we're going to be all right. And that was the quality that I saw in Matt as an actor. I knew like people, you know, this is my feeling especially. And I can say this as the director, because I'm looking into your soul, whether I'm your scene partner or I'm in an editing room for months staring at the frame and, you know, making those decisions, like, to give an honest performance, I genuinely believe you have to be an honest person. I just. The eyes don't lie. They just don't. And I think that that quality that I was looking for in the character of Daryl that Matt portrays is exactly that. And to take it a step further, I would say that for the remainder of our cast, that's why you're getting those performances. It really was in the casting, like, this movie was lightning in a bottle. You could never. There's no moving out a piece to put something, and you could never recreate it. It was this moment in time that was a pressure cooker, and we had no money to throw at any problem. Right. So we were operating entirely on instinct. Right. And that's what you get. It's all instinct.

Wow. Number one, thank you for sharing and being vulnerable. And it's funny, when that was coming up for you, I could feel you feeling him, and then I was feeling it, and I could. It's kind of like these. Yeah, this tears and this relief kind of came through at the same point, but I don't. I don't know.

What were you.

What was coming up?

Yeah, I think that, like, you know, it's been some years, but, like, it was just, like. It was just frustration because I don't. I don't like bullies, and I don't, you know, And I also feel like, you know, we are so much more as people than people try to put labels on us and so on. And I think if you're an artist and you're just trying to be a part of telling stories and telling good stories and hopefully impactful stories, I think I have just, like, your private life's, like, off limits, like, to that kind of stuff. And so here we are. And again, when you talk about the way that the universe works. And first off, my car should never have broke down. It was a newer car, and it overheated. So for that tow truck driver to come in my life at that moment changed everything. Second thing is to be on the Paramount Ranch, to have become friends during that. You don't always become friends with your co stars. And. And we became buddies with our all. Like, there was five main, you know, guys in our ensemble cast, and we all became buddies, and that was really special. And so there was just, like, so many things at work that were pushing you to that place. And then that. That road trip. The very first veteran that we met with, George Rice, if George hadn't have been as vulnerable and open and trusting, I mean, it took a little bit of time that day to build that trust, but he took a giant leap of faith on us, right? And I think he saw in us what we. Our earnestness also how ideological we were of, like, you know, of trying to make a difference. If he had not taken that leap of faith, we probably would have just got back in the car and driven back to la, because he gave us, like, that. It was the wind in our sails to go like, oh, we can do this. Oh, there is more to the story. There are more people. Look at George Rice. He's telling us, go meet with this person. Meet with this person. And to some degree, he began to vouch for us in the community. And we always promised him that we would, you know, respect that responsibility, you know, of him sticking his neck out to trust us. And. And I really hope that, you know, this film for all the folks that trusted us, honors their commitment to service and sacrifice.

Okay, so now I want to go into that summer and when you guys were on the road and you were meeting these veterans and talking through these stories, like, what were, like, the three key elements that came out that were like, okay, this is when you said the wind and the sails. We can't look back anymore. We got to get this out into the world.

Yeah, I. Well, I'll tell you, first off, like, we had no. Outside of reading books, like, you have no. When someone's inviting you into this world and they're describing a scenario like a village sweep, where you're. You're basically going into a target area in the middle of the night, and. And they're extra. Extraordinarily dangerous circumstances. You can't. You can't picture. So oftentimes, you know, when you're sitting across from people, like, it's. It's Real life, it's not. It's this person sitting across from you actually went through that. Right. While their buddies are. Are back in, you know, in Kentucky or Seattle or wherever, drinking beers that summer, as you would at that age. Right. They're doing that and you're. And it's really hard as you go through it because it never gets old where you're like, wow, that's. That is so unique and the courage that that takes to do that. So that was like, one of the first things I think, in the key elements of, like, you know, I'll share just, you know, without getting off on one here. But I was very fortunate in that first year in 2011 to spend time with Brad Link, who's an army veteran. And we've all become very close. You know, I even signed Brad's marriage license when he got married years later, like, that's how close we are as his witness. But he's a brother to us and. And he took a leap of faith and he allowed me to get on a plane and fly out to Pittsburgh to spend time with him. And I thought it was just going to be a day or two, we're going to touch and go, see how it goes. And I ended up staying with his family for a month. And I think the extraordinary part for me was, like, Brad was dealing with post traumatic stress from a military operation where he lost three of his men, one of which was his best friend, Sergeant Cody Legg. And. When I met with Brad, we're only three years after that deployment, so it was very fresh and just seeing in the first week the courage he had in talking about it, because he had never talked about it before. And, I mean, my mind was blown in so many ways, just like knowing, like, I have a friend right now or like that has been through this extraordinary circumstance and the courage and like, just my admiration and my respect and, you know, all those things because, you know, in the civilian world, like, you don't have that. Right. Like, you don't. You could have somebody who went, you know, was the star player on the team or. But, I mean, we're talking about, like, that kind of raw courage.

Yeah.

That'S a very scarce sort of commodity. Right. So here we are, like, I don't know, two weeks into it, and as a policy, because I didn't want to be somebody's. I wanted to respect their story. I'd never drank with veterans. I'd always, like, we're working right now. It's, you know, so after two weeks, I say to Brad, you know, why don't we go for a beer? You know, I think we take a break or whatever. So we go out to a local watering hole in Pittsburgh, and we have a beer, and I go to the bathroom, and I come back and there was. There was a group of people standing with Brad at the bar. I didn't know if they were his friends or not. And they're like, hey, they want to get a photo with you. They recognize you from white chicks. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. You know, think nothing of it. And I looked at Brad, and I had this moment where, like, literally time stood still. Because it was very surreal where I was like, in that moment, that imposter syndrome of, like, why my photo? If they only knew what he just shared with me over the last two weeks, you would look right through me. I'm chopped liver. And that, to me, was such a. Because I remember I called you, like, that night from the parking lot, and of the parking lot of this bar, and I was like, you're not. Like, this is. It's such a. Because here's the thing. It's. It's like, Brad doesn't think he's heroic or courageous. He's just doing his job. It's like, what his commitment to service was. But if you're the person who's there with him, spending time, and you're like, he's just a guy sitting at the bar, and you would never know his story. And that, to me, that if we're talking about one of the first main things that changed everything was just that these folks, these courageous folks that have sacrificed everything and so have their families are amongst us, and many of us don't know that. And we should know that. We should know that, and they should know that we know that. Right? And I. And I had that just like, that sense of pride where I couldn't believe, like, how lucky am I that that's my buddy now?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and so that was like, kind of probably one of the main things. And then I think you could probably talk to about this, though, of, like. Of how there's certain things, like when they're shared with you, like you. You know, as the screenwriter, you never know what's going to end up in the script. The story sort of dictates itself and all the stories that you're told and everything you kind of put in your toolbox. But, you know, we went into every nook and cranny of the country, like, everywhere you could imagine. I met with anybody that Would speak to us, you know, But I. I mean, you know, if. If sharing our time in Minnesota with. With Harley and Chad and Anthony and, you know, I mean, I don't think you. Had you ever been to the gun range like that?

Not quite like that. Yeah. Where they took us.

They took us in to the gun range, like. Well, they took us in for sure.

Yeah. How was that? What was that like?

Well, I think just immersing sort of into their world was an interesting. I don't understand. Interesting isn't the right word, but it definitely was, like, a glimpse into, I mean, just their world and their reality. I don't know. I think you have to talk.

Oh, man. All right. Matt, he's just, like, struggling. He's like, you gotta come up with two more, and you can't. No, like, look, there was a group of veterans in Minnesota in that first road trip that really took us in, and we were in Granite Falls. And so you're in the middle of nowhere, and these people are just the kindest, warmest people with their. Tater. Was it tater? Tater tot, hot dish. Oh, tater tot. Hot dish. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. We were just, like, you know, doing karaoke at. At night at the American Legion, and. But look, they. They. Again, they. They were combat vets, and they trusted us, and they. They really took us in. And I think because you. You, like, look, we, like, we knew we bit off more than we could chew. Like, we knew that we were just nervous of, like, every city we went into, every town we went into, every dining table we sat at or living room we sat in. We just. We just wanted to earn the moment, you know, we wanted to earn the right to be there or the privilege to be there. Yeah, right.

And how did you earn it? Like, what would be the. Like, when you went in, Was it becoming more vulnerable? Was it, you know, standing in honor and respect? Like, what would you say? Like, how do you. How do you earn that with.

So I don't know that we have earned that, because until the movie comes out, that will be the. From for me, like, I think, on a human level, like, earn their trust. And. And I think that our commitment to this journey for so many years or 14 years has shown that level of, you know, responsibility that we take very seriously. But in terms of, like, earning the moment, you know, we've had some extraordinary experiences on the film festival circuit where you have, you know, Vietnam veterans standing up in front of a full auditorium in tears, saying, you know, you guys nailed it. Or OIF or OAF FETs saying, you know, I wish I had this movie 10 years ago to show my family and my ex wife so they could know why I am the way I am, but why they are the way they are. And so those things, you know, those are just so incredibly humbling.

But yeah, but I think they're also. When you talk about earning it, I think, you know, the reason why we were able to earn it on the two or like on those multiple cross country road trips was it was the sitting and listening without prejudice. It was the sitting and just listen. Listening authentic or just genuinely like wanting to hear their story and not judging and them being able to see that we were like putting in the work, but also that just we wanted to hear their stories and be able to help support and like and in sharing their story. And I think that that goes a long way with anybody, whether, you know, a veteran or anybody that's experienced talking about their trauma or something that's maybe requires them to be a bit more vulnerable. It's like when you can just be there. I think that that goes a long way.

Yeah, I do this. It's funny when you say that, there's something that comes up for me when I'm. So I do this thing. I have this class called Feel and Grow Rich. And in the class it's kind of leaned off of Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich. But oftentimes we forget how to feel.

Yeah.

And so especially as men, like men, we just like hide the feelings and we think we have to show up as this like version of an avatar that looks a very specific way. And then we get taught that over and over. And then we hold that generationally, you know, and then, you know, for me, you know, I was sexually abused from 9 to 14 years old. And I always thought that I had to be the stronger, bigger version. So I mean, I grew up actually really like kind of like run size. And I didn't grow till I was like 21 years old. It was really weird. I don't even understand how that worked, like from a bio perspective, but it did. And then I grew at this late stage and all I wanted to do was be. It's funny, you're on white. So I wanted to be like Terry. Like I just.

Sure, we all do. I wanted to flex the chest. We all do. Yeah, yeah.

And. And so I would work out, eat the calories and do the thing. And then I found that I never actually felt and probably until about seven or eight months ago, I didn't really remember what it was like to feel. And that, yeah, I would show up intellectually. I would do the things, tell people the patterns, the systems and everything. But I never knew how to really feel until probably, like, literally seven months ago because I had this coach came in and show me this. She was like, look, you're not feeling. Go to that space. Go to when you were being raped at nine years old and feel that feeling and that fear and that. That anger and that scare you, like, all of those things. And I'm like, oh, like. And that. Like, when I think about it now, like, it comes up for me again. Like, I. But I. It was kind of what I felt in you a minute ago. Like, you go back to that somatically, even though it happened when I was 9, and I'm 46 now, and when I was 9, I go back to that moment. The body does not forget.

It does not.

It does not forget.

It does not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, the cool thing about it is, is as we go through this inside of the class, I started to create this thing called belief loops. So now what I did is I said, okay. At that moment in time, I created this belief that for me to be close to a man in my life, that they would have to groom me because that was a good friend of mine and a family member that was older. That for me to get their respect and their honor, I would need to be groomed by the men in my life. So all through my life, I would find men to groom me. Not sexually, but to groom me in business, to groom me as a friend, to groom me in other ways. And then when that started to happen, I would always sit as this kind of, like, subordinate person that was always taken advantage of. And then I wondered why everything fell apart. Kind of crazy, right?

Sure.

So then it's like, what I see in you, I see in me. What I can see in you guys as you're sitting with those veterans is the authenticity of the elements of your trauma, being able to come out and connect with them so that they would share authentically.

Yeah, I. I definitely think that. And thank you for sharing that. And I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, look, I was. I was picked on terribly as a kid, and, you know, I was chubby. I had glasses, and, you know, it was, you know, so you. You're.

You.

You realize that you develop through your trauma that you try to please people, right? That you're. You're. You're holding yourself at a higher standard than you hold anybody else to. Right? And so it's interesting because that follows you all the way into adulthood, where it can turn into, like, ocd. Like, anybody in our team, Matt, will tell you firsthand that I'm, like, an absolute perfectionist. And, like. Like, I won't do it if it's not gonna be perfect. And I always, like, one of my biggest challenges is trying to make sure that my perfectionism isn't my paralysis, you know, But I think that, like, just speaking to our humanity and our empathy, that, like, collectively, that we had, which was just. Yeah, you know, we. When we went out there, you know, we were willing to ask the questions, we were willing to commit to the journey. Like, I remember, like, being on the road and veterans would say to us, like, you know, you still have another five weeks. Where are you guys going? What cities? And remember all the time, like, it would. It would, you know, and then we got back to la and then we went to. We were so fortunate that we were able to end that first road trip going to a Gold Star mother's house in Murrieta. Boniva. Jaquet, who's. She spoke at my wedding, and she's like a second mom to me. And. And being around others, empathy and compassion, struggle, sacrifice, all those things shape you. And they definitely did in those early years, like that first road trip. So we ended around end of September. Bineva, the Gold Star mother, invited me to go to the White House for a Gold Star. Family members, eventually. And I definitely, I can assure you, I had not earned that moment. And I had said, I don't think I should go. Let me earn this. Like, you know, and she was like, no, no, no, no. If you're writing a screenplay on this, you need to see this for yourself. And if you can imagine. So we go to D.C. for the weekend, and it's a Christmas event where you hang an ornament of your loved one on the presidential tree. So there's families in the White House that have all lost a family member in combat during conflict. And she was right. I needed to see it. And I was just barely holding it together, but seeing the humanity in the folks that had lost. Every time an image would come up on the screen of a loved one, and it's like In Memoriam, you could literally hear gasps, like the family was reliving it as much as it was a communal experience to bring us. Bring us all together under this one roof and having, like, a little girl, you know, 10 years old, come up to you with, you know, a T shirt with her brother in uniform that was KIA during a military operation, and her with a smile on her face and having that strength and courage to say, can I tell you about my brother? Yes. You know, and sitting there with her for an hour, just hearing, you know, and these folks become the caretakers of the legacy of their loved one that they lost. So I say that because in those early days, those were the things that definitely shaped me and shaped our journey of like just the level of responsibility that we had. And a testament to the fact that five of Goldstar family members and 17 military veterans worked with us throughout the production. But Beneva does appear in the film as a way to honor her son's memory and legacy.

Yeah, I think we, I mean, yeah.

Yeah, Matt's been working on it, but there's so many. There's probably 10.

Yeah, I'm sure.

But yeah, there was so things that, that, that shaped us. But I, I will say lastly that, and this is really important to share is that we didn't have an agenda going into this other than to uncover the truth. Whatever that was, we didn't know. Like, I didn't have a political background that was going to inform my angle. There was no angle. The angle was what is the plight of our veterans, the families, the mental health workers, gold star family members. Like, what was that and why didn't we know more about it? 1% of the population protecting the other 99%. And so really it was a fascination and a curiosity that developed into a responsibility.

Wow. Wow. Okay, so this, this now takes me into. I remember when we first talked and you, you said ptg.

What do you.

Because I said PTSD to you and you're like, no, ptg. And you brought it back home and I, and then I, I rapidly googled it, then I rapidly chatbooted it and I'm like, oh, wow, this is a whole world. And it's very much so. What I talk about, you know, in my content, online and how I lead people in is, you know, like my trauma is my superpower. You know, it's like the spiritual bodybuilding that I've done all my life that's gotten me to the point to where I can hold the capacity of polarity that can wrap my arms around so many people. Right. And that's cool. As somebody that, you know, I've gone through a bunch of stuff and we can go through that. But when you think about one year journeys and being able to then alchemize that into a screenplay, into acting, into producing this out into the world. But then also how you took all of that in from being watching all these veterans. When you see how they grew from their trauma, where did you see it end? Where were you? Like, where were your mind blown? And you said, okay, well, I can't believe that these people got through this and how did it impact their families?

So that's a really good point to bring up because when we talk about post traumatic growth and we talk about ptg, you know, it's really important to share that many of the folks that we met with 14 years ago, we're still in contact with. So you can see for some their growth and some, for others, you know, their different journeys and their paths through all of this. You know, so, you know, it's important to share that. You know, I'll give you an example. And I gotta be careful to not be too personal because it's other people's lives and their stories. But, you know, veterans that, that when I met with, were deeply traumatized, deeply to a point of like, couldn't, couldn't hold down employment and needed care and eventually got the care and then went on to live. Like, look, the trauma's always there, right? It's, it's just how it's managed and there's no cure. There's not a way of like, oh, you're just cured and because you did treatment and you know this as a trauma survivor. And so I, I think that like. But to share with you that the majority of the folks that I know that have committed to doing the work have lived and are living. You know, Let me start this again. Sorry, sorry. Because I haven't really talked about this, like, in, in sort of depth because I'm just thinking of all the folks that we have met with and knowing their journeys. But I think when we talk about ptg, it's just, it's, it's. It's important to note that from folks that we've met with 14 years ago to today, we've been given the benefit of seeing their journey firsthand. Whether that's, you know, getting out of their current living situation, moving to a different state, marrying their childhood sweetheart, having the courage to reach out to one of their brothers they served with and seeing that. But the biggest thing across the board that I've seen is that those that commit to doing the work, whatever that looks like, whether that's therapy, whether that's being more actively involved in their community, but finding a sense of purpose, whether that's through work or hobbies or, you know, those that are participating, I feel like have, have, have grown and have found ways to live to live a better life, for lack of a better term. And that's really inspiring to me because, you know, to be fair, not every veteran was deployed and not every veteran was in combat, and certainly not every veteran has trauma. And so. And if you do have trauma, it doesn't necessarily have to come from your military service. It could come from family, it could come from, you know, anything. So I just feel like that we've been really fortunate to see that sort of firsthand, whether it's like, we know veterans that served and were in combat and came home, used the GI Bill and went on to start a law firm or small business or get into the arts even. And that's really inspiring. And so I think I won't go on about this, but from a personal space with post traumatic growth, you know, we talked about earlier with Matt's story, is that Matt is also the living embodiment of that, of taking a situation earlier in his career that was extraordinarily damaging and detrimental to both his livelihood, you know, to his personal life, and turning that around and being of service to a community that is also marginalized, that also doesn't have a voice. And that to me, like, is pretty incredible and pretty empowering. I mean, and very inspiring. You know, for me personally, you know, I was a, I was a victim of a violent robbery when I was in, when I was in college, I was bartending. And I'm not going to get into the specifics of the story because there were other survivors from it, but the point is, is that I thought it was fine, right? So you just like, you know, I went to work at the bar the following weekend, right? Because I was like, this is the safest bar to work at now because who's going to rob it twice, right? But you realize that like, well, and I was young, so you don't know and you don't have the tools to get through it. So, like, we're all like the bus boys going through the trauma in a different way. One of my other fellow bartenders who, you know, went through it with me, she's going through it in a different way. And you all kind of like, as survivors of it, you want to be together because nobody else knows your trauma. So I understand that to some degree with veterans how, like, unless you served, unless you were at my left and my right, you don't know jack. I respect that because I felt the same way. There was nothing my parents could say. There Was nothing anybody was gonna say until one morning I went to visit my parents at their house. And I was up early in the morning making toast or something. There was a loud bang at the door. And I just saw black. Like, I don't know what happened. And I was just like a flash of light. I was in my parents bedroom and I was like, they're here, they're here. I knew they were gonna find out where I lived. I'm thinking that it's the guys who robbed us, like, literally two weeks later that have come to our house, like 45 minutes away. Like, you know, my dad comes down to the front door with me. We're like, you know, ready to go kind of thing. And we looked down at the ground and it was a newspaper rolled up, and it was the paper boy who had thrown it from the street. And it hit the door so loud. And my dad turned to me and he said, son, you. You need to speak to somebody. Yeah, And I did.

Yeah.

And I did. And that was, you know, my personal experience. And. And it did help. It helped a lot. So much so that, like, when that incident happened, I was in the middle of, I think, exams, and I couldn't concentrate. Like, even the sound of silence, of being in a room, and you hear a pencil go down, like. So I had to write all my exams in private rooms in the end, because I was dealing with that, you know.

So I want to say something to that. It's interesting because when I think of the trauma is a moment in time. You know, it's kind of like that. That splinter, it's that lightning bowl. It's the thing that happens. And then the body is this interesting kind of quantum machine, if I were to call it that. Like we, you know, superposition in all possibilities, happening at all times inside of our. Inside of what we are. How we hold the story is in our memory based on context that we have from whatever we've been taught. Our limited perspective. Our parents do the best that they possibly can. Our little boys and little girls grow up. And we're like, okay, well, that's right, because this is what I need to do to survive. And then so on and so forth, and we just develop and expand that story out. So the trauma holds it right, is this moment. And then you think about growth. Growth is a journey. And most people are like, oh, I need to go do the therapy and I'm gonna get to this place.

Sure.

And when I was hearing you talk about when yourself, yourself, your journey is my journey. Never done. Right it's never, never done. And then the veterans, right? And I'd love to see how. I'd love to talk about how this actually like folds into the movie and some elements inside of this that you know, that people need to see. Okay, when you watch this scene, this is what you're going to experience, this is what you're going to feel because this is going to bring people in, right? To really understand what that post traumatic growth looks like so that they can help other people with their journey. But I say all that to say that when you get into that moment where it's. What is the expansion of that journey, when you're seeing people and you're watching the veterans and what they're going through, whether it's a small baby step or they come back from convent and they start a law firm, not one is better than another. Because to your point, everybody's on their own individual journey and we're all kind of like, when I look at my hand, the cells on my hand, if I judge the cells, I'm like, oh, well, this one's better than that one because I really like that knuckle better. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything different, right? They all have their specific purpose. And so when we can honor those, that purpose and we can see that in a way that doesn't pass judgment onto individuals just because they took the baby step and they couldn't get out the bed over and over again. But now all of a sudden they got out of the bed and they actually moved to the other room.

That's huge for somebody, 100%. I mean, there's a line in the film that Lilli Cooper says, she plays my wife in the film. Sometimes walking through the door. She's referring to the va. Sometimes walking through the door can be the longest road traveled for folks. And that's important. And the other thing too is as we share our stories, one thing we don't do is we don't compare our traumas in so much that. Your trauma, my trauma, your trauma. We say this in the film, that our pain is relative, but we don't. One thing being a greater trauma than another, we all experience it differently. And again, just like you said, there is no one perfect way. I think a big thing to also share is that. And again, we talk about this in the film in, in Sheepdog, that you have to, we have to accept and also get to a place where it's okay to not be okay. Right? It's okay to not be okay. And, and to also Understand that, like, you don't have to do it alone. And, and, and you there, There's. There's so much support there, and it was important, it was integral to the story to show that, like, it takes a family, a community to come together and we all learn from it and we all can heal from it, you know, from. From our own personal experiences. And. And that's why it's really important. Sheepdog is not a post traumatic stress movie. Sheepdog is a post traumatic growth movie. It takes you to those darkest places in our lives. To show you that there is light at the end of the tunnel. To show you that doing the work is a worthy journey and has been. We've seen it firsthand for many folks, and we hope it inspires people. And we also hope that it's a call to action for civilians. Right. To have a better understanding of what it is that our veterans and their families experience, you know?

Yeah. Matt, do you have anything to add to that? No. Well, it's funny, I. I remember there was a part of my life when I lived in Washington, D.C. and I had. I never really had a affinity for veterans, even though my grandfather was in the military. And he would have these moments where he'd wake up screaming, you know, and I'd be in the other room, and I'm like, I had no idea. And I just thought it was weird. And then I got mad at the military, right? Because I'm like, why would they put him through this? This is that victim, circumstance thing, right? So I'm like, why would they put him through this? Why would they send him to. I think he was in Vietnam. Why would they send him to Vietnam? So he did this whole thing, and he was a. He was a chef, but he had saw all of the things, you know, people dying, did his thing. And I never heard all the stuff he did, but I was always angry at it. And then I remember I went to D.C. and I would. I saw. I was living in Pentagon City at the time, and did you see just like America in, like, the most pristine form? And I'm like, wow, maybe I should join the military. I was like, kind of in my, like, mid-20s at the time. Maybe I should join the military. This is actually really cool to see the other side of it. Almost like the thing of an awe and how people show up in just the suits and the uniforms and everything's every day. And like what they're saying on the subways is I was like, driving, you know, I was on the Metro, and then I Got away from it. And so it's so often that we forget about the people that help protect this country. And not to be somebody who's like, patriotic, because I'm like, probably the least. I mean, I'm not the least patriotic guy. That would be weird. But I'm probably not like the guy who like, jumps through the door and is like, you know, you know, I was like, more on the Kaepernick side in the kneeling thing than I was probably, like, doing the flag. But on, you know, when I look back on it, I can see especially, like, how we, how we defend this country in the shadows that we never see. And then we throw those people away because we're like, oh, my life is good. But we don't realize what it takes to make the life good. Right. And what the veterans like, any. It's easy on Veterans Day to say thank you for your service. It's easy to see somebody who's got the hat on and say, you know, I really appreciate everything that you did. But for somebody to feel that, to truly feel what that looks like, I feel like this movie is a catalyst in a way that people have never experienced that. You know, whether you've watched American Sniper, whether you've watched, you know, in any of these films, right, the, you know, any of them that are out there, I feel like there's something different about this that gets to the human story, the element that moves people from being a victim into a creator. And I'd love you to talk a little bit more about that, because I. If people don't hear that and around that post traumatic growth element, they're. They're not going to. You know, if that's the one thing we took from this today, I want people to hear exactly that.

Okay. Yeah. So I'll start with this. And so I think, you know, one of the greatest challenges for Matt and I from the very inception of Sheepdog was, was getting it right on behalf of those that had sacrificed all and their families. Was. Was. Was making sure that this was going to be authentically told and accurate. And so, you know, Sheepdog was made entirely outside of the Hollywood studio system, outside of Hollywood. I mean, all of the production budget was raised. The private equity here in Texas entirely, our marketing budget, everything was all through private equity, all through folks that really believed in our mission here in Texas. And why that's important is because as the writer, director, actor, I never had a studio breathing down my neck, giving me notes. I took notes from those, I trusted script notes over the years and refined the screenplay, refined the story. I mean, six months before going to camera, we had three deployments that were. You know, I spent a lot. I spent years writing those to get them so accurate and perfect and whatnot. But in the end, we didn't have the budget when we went to camera, which in so many ways was a blessing because it informed, like, all the writing and research we did informed who we were going to be on camera. So that's why in one of the scenes where I'm in a therapy session with Virginia Madsen's character, I'm able to talk about it in a way, like I've lived it. Because in. Over the years, I had met with certain guys that had experienced that particular mission. That was loosely inspiring the scene, but I could see it in my mind's eye when I talked about it. Right. And that's all to say that the work that we put into it, it was really important that it was on the screen. And so people that see Sheepdog, they can trust that they're going to get an authentic experience that's emotional, uplifting, informative, entertaining, and hopefully they leave the theater, you know, either feeling a call to action of wanting to go beyond that. Thank you for your service and saying, how are you? And understanding the veteran community, the military community, but also for veterans to feel seen and heard, to hopefully give a voice to their experience. What makes our film unique is we pick up with our main character that I play 10 years after his last deployment. That was a really interesting story to me. Right. Because we hadn't seen that for, you know, for our generation. Sheepdog is the first film that truly explores the physical and psychological repercussions of trauma with a focus on post traumatic growth.

I think there's something too, about, like. I mean, yes, to all those things that you listed, but there's also something that's relatable in a way, because so many films show, you know, the veteran is like the jacked up hawk. Let's go get the bad guys. And that comes with a certain, like, bravado that we and Sheepdog stripped away completely. And that. That was always, you know, because we'd.

Never seen it, though.

Yes.

We only put up on the screen. Yeah. What we saw, we saw, like.

And when you say it was just about the human story, like, coming down to the humanity, like, it really was. It was just. And that is what I feel. Yes. Like, you watch American Sniper or, I mean, there's so many of them, and you're like, I guess you don't connect to them in a way. Like when you're saying. Yeah. That you. We know, like, we know in our minds, like, what it takes to. To give us this sort of life of our freedom or all these things that we have as civilians. But, like, what does it really take? Or, you know, and like, what is the war when they get home? And what is like, the human aspect of it? Not just the soldier, not just the, you know, some. That it is really about these. Yeah. I mean, the human story is exactly like what you said it was like stripping all away all that stuff and just being able to an authentic story that. That any human can relate to. Anybody who's experienced sort of any trauma or just in anything.

Well, and I love that you guys are ringing the bell on the growth edge. Right. Because most people don't see the growth edge. They see what we, as we as Americans, society, humanity has always said is like, what is the disorder? What is the illness? Right. Where is the gap? Where's the darkness? Where is the shadow? Where's all the bad stuff? And we judge it. And when you look at growth and you look at gratitude and you look at whether it's the story of Yeshua in Christ, whether it's the story of redemption, whatever the story is, there's always growth through it. There's always something that comes out on the other side. And when I think about this and I feel this fully after watching it, and even as you guys sit here, it's this new version of embodied masculinity, of what it truly means to actually feel and stand in a different state. And then you did that almost in this new vibration that when people watch this film, Sheepdog, and I wanna go into the name here in a second, they watch this film, Sheepdog, they're going to feel something they've never felt before, and they're gonna have a purpose that they've never had before that's tied to this growth edge that shows people what's possible when trauma comes up instead of, oh, let's go throw these people away.

Wow, I appreciate you saying that. And again, I wrote what I saw. Like very little was invented because it would have been invented by a civilian who had never walked on a battlefield. Right. And so it was important to. In honoring the folks that trusted us to hold the mirror up as to what, you know, we collectively saw and just sort of like speaking to that masculinity. I'll be honest. Like, you know, one of the biggest things that we saw is like, you know, people that we sat in front of that had been in the most horrific situations that you could ever imagine. You're living nightmare and come back home. And though some, for some, struggle with that experience and be the most kind and loving people. Right. I remember a situation in Minnesota where a Marine veteran took me into his garage because he's like, you're the writer, right? And I said, yeah. And he shared with me a story that he'd experienced that was. I cannot put into words, nor I ever will, and I'll obviously take it to my grave, but it was really hard to sit through and. But I couldn't believe his courage to share it with me. And I could not believe, as we were at this, like, cookout in his backyard in the middle of summer on that first road trip, that here I was hearing this story and being a part of this and now being a part of his life because he shared it with me and going back out after sharing tears together and that fellowship, going back out into his backyard and him picking up his daughter and putting her on his knee and turning and having, like, to smile and be normal and functional. And I marveled at that, where I was like, I don't. Like, this is truly extraordinary, you know, and to know and. And my God, do I admire these folks. Like, I really, you know, for what they've sacrificed and, you know, what they've gone through. So I say that because our depiction in the movie again, was to share what we saw and to portray characters as what was shared with us. And I hope that that's woven into the fabric of what Sheepdog now is.

Well, it is. I mean, how many awards now are we sitting at?

15? We've been very blessed. Yeah, no, we've been very blessed. And we always say this like it's. Those awards aren't ours. They're for the people that trusted us, that we represent in the film. Because there was no performance, there was no story without those folks that took a chance on us, because they all did. Like, we, you know, we're self aware enough to know, like, if you see these two idealistic guys, you know, from Hollywood coming out to, like, get the story, you know, I wouldn't be that keen to share my story, you know, so it took years to build that trust and. And we took that responsibility very seriously.

I think, about the concept of abundance in this film. What does that look like at the end of the day? Is it a box office number? Is it impacting ex lives? What does it mean for you?

Look, we've been the reaction as I Said that we got on the film festival circuit has been profound. And I think that that in itself is a gift.

Every time we screen this film, I think it has been a true gift to be able to come out of the theater and see how it's touched and affected and maybe moved people or changed somebody in a little way or to provide hope for somebody. I think that it is like, that is, yeah, abundance. That is like a great gift and so grateful for it. So I, I think, yeah, this is like continuing forward. Like every, every time those messages are shared with us, it is.

You know, when you can come off a stage in Annapolis after you've done a Q and A and you have a group of Gold Star mothers who you greeted in the lobby of the theater before you screened it, you know, all wearing their buttons and their T shirts with their loved ones that they lost during their service. And you see just for a glimpse, the light return in their eyes after the screening. Like, like, words can't describe that. Like, we just want to be worthy of the moment, you know, when you can, you know, screen the film and have a World War II veteran that's like 102 whisper in your ears. Thank you. Yeah, you know, like, you're.

This is.

No, this is like out of our hands now. This is like, this film is no longer ours. It's. It's theirs. It's everyone that's willing to, to. To share a piece of it, you know, in the story. And so when we talk about abundance, you know, we just, we just genuinely want to positively impact lives. We want to save lives. We want to, you know, let folks know, even the family members of veterans like that, we see you, we understand you. This is yours. The mental health workers that show up every day on the front lines that truly care about the work that they're. The important work that they're doing, you know, to make a difference in somebody's life, you know, that we see them and then the Gold Star family members to know that like, you know, that your immeasurable sacrifice is acknowledged, is acknowledged and appreciated, you know, and that to me is, is our. That what that is our mission and has been our mission in, in doing that. And then, you know, on the, on the other side, this is a film, you know, it's a two hour story that we hope is, Is. Is entertaining. There is a lot of humor in it. There's a lot of great plot twists in it that. To keep you interested and then just to speak to the performances. So the Sheepdog Stars Academy Award Nominee Virginia Madsen, who plays a trauma therapist. Virginia is a gold star family member, and she brings a lot of gravitas to this performance. I mean, she's just extraordinary in it. And if you think she was great in Sideways, which is one of my favorite movies, take a peek because, yeah, she's just like, she's breathtaking. Von D. Curtis hall, he's a living legend, and he plays a Vietnam veteran. He plays my father in law in the film. And Vondy came and he bared his soul for us all to witness. And I'm telling you, as somebody who has done multiple honor flights taking Vietnam veterans to their respective memorials in D.C. and seeing it firsthand down at the hotel lobby bar over a whiskey and hearing those stories from those veterans, Vondi was the living embodiment. He. He transcended to a place that was just stunning. And in my job as his director, but also his scene partner, I laugh because he was just, he. He literally took my breath away. And I was trying not to cry in the scene like there, you know, the scene on the front lawn where he gives the speech and. Because I don't want to mess up the scene because my character in that moment wouldn't have done that, right? But Stephen, the writer, the director, the humanitarian, if you will, standing across from him, just, you know, Lilli Cooper, she's a Tony nominee from Broadway. Her father's a Tony winner, and she gives one of the most extraordinarily devastating speeches in the film and just so dialed in. And I can't wait for folks to see her in the film. And this is her official sort of theatrical feature film foray from Broadway. And she's just extraordinary. And Dominic Famousa, where people would know him from either Nurse Jackie or Dexter, he's in the recent Dexter series, but he plays kind of my character's angel on his shoulder that's willing to show him the tough love. And I mean, he's. I mean, some of his humorous moments, I mean, he just, like, is just unbelievable. He's. He was like the big brother to my character in the film. He's like his former hockey coach, but he's just electrifying in it. And he's. He's so great. And then, of course, we've talked about Matt, but just to share a little bit more about Matt's performance, Matt transcended in such a way, we're talking about the, the weight gain that he did for the character, because in our experience, some veterans that we had met with had, had, had soothed and coped with their trauma through. Through, through eating, whether that was not eating or eating in excess. And. And we found that really interesting. And because, like, to be clear, it's not always alcohol or pills or even any kind of substance abuse. It all comes in different when you have trauma. And it was important to show that in the film. And so, you know, when Matt. When Matt finally came to set, so it was like probably a month out before you came out to Western Massachusetts, but he was moving different around a room because he was 50 pounds heavy. Heavier. And, you know, and you go through that kind of transformation that's already going to change you. The way you breathe.

Yeah. You know, everything.

Your whole relationship with your body and the way it's like. So. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. How did that feel? Like, I mean, just when you're carrying that, it's almost like you're carrying the trauma itself.

But that's a lot of it. And it's like. And it is the, like, sort of like building a sort of barrier between you and the outside world. And even so, even, like metaphorically, it was like the sort of like hiding behind the weight. But yeah. Or even just the insecurities of, like, the way you feel in your body changes everything. Right? Because, you know, your clothes fit tighter in places and, you know, you don't. You look in the mirror, you don't, you know, you feel. I don't know, you just.

Did you get a different empathy toward people that, you know, are going through that. Like, when you're. When you're seeing somebody that is in that discomfort and you see them today, do you. Is that something you carry still or are you able to connect with that differently? I'm just curious.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't.

I don't know if that's serly. I don't know. Maybe I just kind of a pathetic person in the first place, so, I.

Don'T know.

Responded differently to somebody.

But, I mean, I saw it. I saw it sitting across from and seeing. It's like I, you know, I. And again, that's just a testament to, like, we were trying to portray real people. Like, we're shot on location, there's no cgi. These are all lived in locations. We shot actually in a real paper mill in Western Massachusetts. And so it was important to be authentic to the entire experience. And that was like letting go of any vanity that you may or may not have for everybody. That was across the board for every character because these needed to look like real people, not movie stars. Right. And I think that we did a very honest portrayal of that as the storyteller, as the filmmaker, to ensure. Because if one element is out, even if one day player, who might be playing the bank manager, who, by the way, is amazing in the film, but any one person, down to the pawn shop owner, if they don't feel like they fit into the world or are authentic to the world, you are dead in the water, right? You've lost your audience. So it was really important. And I knew that to do that was not going to be on a, you know, a studio backlot or something. I had to go into a small community, like the many communities that we had visited and our. And our research to. And replicate that. Yeah, that was lived in.

It is one of, like, the greatest compliments that we get, I mean, is when people say that they feel like they were almost watching a documentary. Because it does. But that's, again, to speak to everything you're saying is that everything had to be authentic to the space or to the world that was created, that everyone felt like real people. Yes, the spaces felt like real spaces.

And was it fun to shoot?

Fun, fun, fun.

You know, I live by principles of fun. Like, it sounds like very passionate. Was it.

Fun? Look, I was terrified. I was terrified for all of us. And I think I was so laser focused on so many different aspects, being, you know, wearing many hats and then being responsible for an entire crew and cast and everything. And then, of course, the bigger picture, which is being responsible and telling the story authentically and so on. So I will tell you this. When you ask about fun, the humor that's in the movie, which there's a lot of, is so genuine. And here's why. Because it was like it came out of a pressure cooker, right? So the laughter, even nervous laughter, it's all real. Like, if you think of the. The exchange with Coach O and I, right, Like, there's a lot of tension in it. But why it's funny is because we could all feel it. Like, not because, like, I love Dominic's a brother to me, right? But, but, but, but the. But we could feel it because we all knew kind of days into. Into the actual shoot, we knew by day four, after Lily's speech, we knew we had a movie, right? It was the first thing where we're like, oh, okay, so we're. Okay, we're. We're onto something here. And then Vondie Curtis hall shows up and he just, you know, and then Virginia, you know. And so I say that because the parts that I recall with A smile on my face. Some of them I can't reveal because they're spoilers that are just such great experiences in the film. But I will share this that I've never shared publicly. On the last day of filming, it was the actual. So we shot the movie entirely out of order, as you do. It's never chronological, and you do that for scheduling reasons or for weather for. And on the. On the drive home from the last location, which is the last location in the actual movie that you see, Matt and I were in the car and in my character's pickup truck, and we were driving from that rural area where we shot. And it was just like we were both in tears and it was this, like, cathartic moment and we just started both crying. There was just silence in the car, in the truck. And I didn't realize until that moment that the weight that I had been personally carrying that I felt come off my shoulders. Not because we were in the clear, like, oh, we made the movie and we're not. That was that we've accomplished, at the very least, this leg of the journey. Because we always said when we started out, we said that we would complete the mission or die trying. And we really meant that. Like, I really mean that when I say that I was willing to die for this. It got to a point of, like, where you're so far and deep that the only way out is through it.

Yeah.

As we say in the film. And. And we were. We were committed to that, you know, and so, you know, we're in tears and we're driving and then I just remember kind of laughing like. Because this, like, weight, this thing that we had been doing and what, you know, and how nervous we were throughout the whole thing and, you know, and how grateful. How grateful we were just, you know, so full of gratitude that we. We had got to that. Finally had gotten to that place after, at that point, 12 years. So, yes, there were moments that were fun, but.

But I think there's also, like, this is certainly was the hardest project that I've ever worked on is like, to get through. And granted, like, I working on this project, you know, most projects up to this point, I was come. Would just come on as an actor, right? So you come on, you do your play your part, and you kind of like, leave the fires to be put out by the producers. But as an actor, you don't really see that. That aspect of it. So being on this side, as producer, on the project as well, there was, I guess, like, I don't know, that fun is the way to describe it because you're. But like when everybody is working so passionately and so hard and every day there's a. You wake up to a hundred more fires that need to be put out and by the end of the day there's a hundred more fires that need to be put out for tomorrow. But when you feel a part of something that you know is special and that you know is for something bigger or it's, you know, it still feels, I mean, it's like almost better than fun, maybe. I mean, yeah. So like, yes, fun and laugh and like all those things are great. But it felt good because you knew that you were working for something and you were working as a part of a team, a part of like a nebulous or a part of something that was all for something. Something really great. And so I guess in that aspect, yes, it was enjoyable, I guess, but it was hard. Especially, you know, we were shooting, you know, on a tiny budget for how big in scope our film was. We were shooting in a small amount of time. The amount of locations we had, the amount of characters, the amount of background characters, the amount of, you know, there were just so many moving parts that a budget of our size you typically would scale down to, you know, one. A few locations. A small, A small thing. But we, but the easy route was never the route for us. So I mean, like, we just made it, you know, made it work. So I guess that would be when we talk.

Yeah, well, I mean. Well, one, I love the human emotions because, I mean, you guys buried yourself in it in such a beautiful way to, you know, kind of resurrect yourself out of it. Enjoy. And now you're at this other threshold and so we're going to do something real quick where we're going to very specifically create a version of reality right here to get the outcomes that you guys know you deserve, that you've earned and that you created over the last 14 years. All right, that's two cycles of seven. Seven is a very specific seven days of creation. Like the whole thing. Time moves in sevens. And what we're going to do right now is you guys have partnered with Betix. Okay. If people don't know who vet ticks is, I'm going to say it in the camera. What they do is they do a pay it forward campaign to where they help take these tickets and the opportunity for somebody to watch this film and they support it. Hand over to veterans and veterans families. Is that correct? Am I getting that right?

Yes. So if you're a veteran or a first responder, you can sign up at Vet Tix and not only get tickets to sheepdog sporting events, concerts, that sort of thing, they are supporting our Pay it Forward campaign, which is via sheepdogthemovie.com but a hundred percent of all of the donations are tax deductible and via vet ticks.

Beautiful. Okay, so we're going to put this into three categories. Okay. The first category is we've got Vet Tix. The second category, is there a way somebody can just donate and buy out venues?

Yes. If you go to sheepdogmovie.com, there's a group sales button right at the top. And yes, you can 100% buy out a theater or buy a block of tickets.

Buy a block of tickets. Okay, so that's the second way. And the third way is just go see the movie and bring family and friends and loved ones.

Correct. Sheepdog opens nationwide on January 16th across the country.

Okay, so this is. We've got this trinity, okay? You guys, you guys know me. You'll learn more about my weirdness. We've got this trinity, all right? And there's three ways that we can get people into this, all right? With vet ticks, the pay it forward at the end of the year, okay? If you're getting, if you're watching this next year, then you've got new money to donate. It's about. We're just going to ask because if you don't ask and you shall receive. Right? So we're going to ask for people who are watching this. When we get this out on social, we put this out in the world to donate to vet ticks, to go in and pay it forward, period. Right. For every movie that you're going to go watch, if you're going to go watch another film, you know, everybody's going to go see Avatar, probably go and buy something, buy these as well. Right. It's the, it's the greatest gift. Not only could you give to support this country, to support post traumatic growth. Right. But specifically to just, you know, the work that you guys put into this, if there's nothing else, just to stabilize that. That's one aspect. All right? So we're going to ask that of anybody that's getting this. We're going to put that out there to the world, and you guys ask it too. Okay? All right.

We are grateful for anyone and everyone's support. This entire journey has been, you know, we're full to the brim with gratitude and extraordinarily humbled. And yes, it would be our greatest joy to ensure that all those folks that have served who've put the uniform on and taken it off, and their families and the mental health workers and the Gold Star family members and the communities that support them are able to come out and see Sheepdog in theaters and have that communal experience and that emotional experience together and then be able to talk about it, you know, join us on our socials and give us your feedback and your comments. We're very interactive and there's a beautiful growing community to be a part of and we're just honored to be a small part of that journey.

Yes. Okay, perfect, perfect. I do have anything to add to that? No, that's it. Okay. And then, you know, a lot of people, I mean, there's. If you ever look at like Angel Studios and the Chosen and how, you know, Christians came out and they supported that, which I love. Okay, now it's time. This is going to be, in my opinion, and I get Jills thinking about it. This is the Chosen for the veterans. All right. Wow. So this is. Americans now are coming out and supporting this the same way that they supported Chosen.

Well, I appreciate you saying that, especially as a Christian. There are a lot of subtle faith based undertones in this that came from my experience growing up and growing up in the church and, and also my personal experience of being distant from that. You know, as life takes over and your priorities take over and life gets in the way and I'm uplifted. When we screen at a festival and we're approached in the lobby and people come up to us and they acknowledge those subtle moments throughout the film where they know what you know. There's a line that I wrote in the film that my character says that I've had people point out that my ma used to say that the will of God won't take you or the grace of God won't protect you. And in that moment, I found myself praying to a God that I hadn't spoke to in a long time. And I feel like there's a lot of folks that can probably relate to that, as did my character, you know, in his journey. And so I think that it was important to. To show that in the film and. And not be afraid to do that, you know, again, talking about not having studio notes and being able to tell an authentic and honest story. And I thought that those elements were authentic to the world that we had created.

Yeah, yeah. It's a truth. Very big truth to that. I love it. So the Second thing we're going to ask, okay, is for companies, all right, that are out there, if you've got budgets at the end of the year, you need to move, buy out an auditorium, buy a block of tickets. Okay. If you've got some money sitting to the side and you want to donate to X, this is a great reason to do it. And it helps that whole process. Not only paying it forward, but the way that we measure success, the way that this movie starts to spread. I've been in theatrical for a while is the per screen average, which is basically the volume of tickets that get sold in every screen. The way exhibitors look at it, the bigger that number gets, the more this spreads. And it reminds me of a film I worked on. I can only imagine a long time ago. It started a little small, and then the thing took off and it went to, you know, epic numbers, which Almost, I think, $98 million box office, which is great. Which would be great for this film, because I'm sure not only does it help with the investment and everything that you guys put into this, but also I'm sure what you're going to do with that once it comes out to the world. Your. Your ability to pay it forward. What does that look like?

Our ability to pay it forward is expanding our mission at Teamhouse Studios that employs and trains veterans in front and behind the camera. And that's what I was on Sheepdog. We were honored to hire and train 17 military veterans and five Gold Star family members. And, you know, our hope is if, if this works out on this film, that we can expand the program and expand it on a myriad of projects and employ folks and give folks a sense of purpose and camaraderie that you sometimes get on a film set. You know, I've had shout out to Command Sergeant Major Dom McAllister, who will tell you firsthand that filming experience, that you would never compare it to a deployment. But the elements that are similar is coming back to your Airbnb with five other vets that are also working on the project, and you're all having chow together and having that camaraderie that you missed from your time in service and from all walks of life, whether it's an army vet, a Marine vet, just. And having that, and not as a civilian, not knowing the impact of that until somebody shares that with you to then go, oh, wow, how can we do more of this? Right? And so that would be one element and a major part of what success would look like to be able to do that, to Expand it.

Okay. And then do you feel like. Because I know we've talked a lot about this before, but of course family members going to see this. Yeah. I don't like me, my grandmother, my grandfather's passed. I don't have any veterans in my family right now that I could think of if I go down the family line. But I know a bunch, I know a bunch of people that have been impacted. And so for me, like, where I feel personal responsibility is going, almost like. But I want to. And I'm asked this question, does this film trigger somebody if they go and see it? If they are a veteran, they've gone through things, right. Number one. And then number two, I mean, I know, I know. I think I know the answer to the question in itself, but I want you to answer it. And then number two, if somebody does feel like that's the case, you know, it's like recommending the hey family go see it first and then bring somebody to see it next. It's almost like a film you'd see twice. But I know you can answer this better than me.

Sure. So I think, you know, I would never paint with a broad brush because our life experience is all unique to our own journeys. Right. So I can tell you what my hope is. My hope is is that again, having screened this on the film festival circuit for the last 15 months and seeing the response from veterans of all different walks of life, conflicts, generations, their families, mental health professionals, again, gold star family members, first responders, and then the communities that support them, the response has been extremely passionate, emotional, and overwhelmingly positive. And again, when we talk about triggers, for sure there are elements in it that, that go close to the bone. And I felt that we needed to do that. It was my responsibility to do that. If I'm going to give you, take you on a two hour journey that's authentic, that's going to explore what it looks like getting to the other side of that trauma or that journey or that challenge. And my hope was with Sheepdog was that it's an ensemble piece. You have six main characters essentially. And I wanted the audience to be able to identify in at least one of those characters. You do not have to be a veteran or, you know, active duty or have any involvement, you know, in the military or in the mental health space to relate to any of these characters. This is a human story, and this is a story that I feel like is very important and timely, especially to where we are currently, because, you know, most of our veterans now, especially the ones that are in that served in OIF or oef. You know, they're my character's age in the film. That's where they're at in their lives. And there's a lot of life lived between that last deployment and where they are today. And that's why I feel like it's important to acknowledge that. I'm hoping you get a cathartic experience out of it. I'm hoping you get an understanding if you didn't have one before, but most importantly that. That for those that can identify with each of these characters in the film that they feel seen and heard. And that's a huge first step because there isn't a film that's ever been made like this, especially for our generation. And that's key. First off, the second thing is my hope is that there's a sense of inspiration, right, That inspires people to either have a greater understanding if you're on the outside looking in, or, or if you're on the inside, that they feel inspired to take the journey, if they haven't already, to that path to healing. Because in our own experience, from the very inception of the research we did, and then staying in contact with so many veterans and mental health workers over the years, we have witnessed firsthand that journey, right. And it's a long one, but it's a worthy one, you know, and that's, that's our hope, is that if you walk out of the theater, that you feel empowered.

Yeah, I love this. All right, so the last thing that we asked. So we did, we did the first one, which is pay it forward. We did the second one, which is, hey, like, go buy blocks of tickets. And we, we want. What is it? One in 14 families has over a million dollars. That's the, that's the stat. So shame on. Yeah, it's nuts. It's like, what? Yeah, it's nuts. Like, go, Chad, GPT. Do the research. It's wild to actually see this.

So.

So the donation response, we're going to call on that. Okay. And then the last one, you may or may not have a lot sitting around, but one thing that I see, this is a pattern I see coming up when I think of. And I'm going to. I'm going to use myself as black culture. You start to see the trauma of black culture start to proliferate society, right, In a growth edge way. It's like, oh, now people are wearing, you know, the outfits, they're listening to the music. They use a little bit of the language and stuff like that. And it starts to take off and, you know, Kanye itself out, whatever, whatever you want to use, right? That maybe not the best example, but you get the point.

You know, I got the. I grew up on Fishnickens and you know, Biggie and Tupac and you know.

Then you go into, and I'm going to use this, you know, you go into, you know, you know, queer, gay, lesbian culture that is proliferated from the trauma response into society where, you know, metro men dress differently now we show up differently. Like, I mean, the way that I take care of myself wouldn't be that way if I followed my father's footsteps, right? But seeing a good looking man, right, that actually takes care of himself differently, that might be on, you know, that, that is, you know, homosexual. Like, I will pick up on that and then take that into myself and be like, okay, so I've taken whatever that version of it is that now shows up into the world and I'm bringing that in. So now let's take the last piece of it, which is now we've got the, you know, the veterans. What's the veteran culture look like? What does that community look like? What does that growth edge look like? And why haven't we brought that into society as something that we can take to me, buying a ticket for this film, watching it and putting that into the world, taking things like post traumatic growth and then taking away post traumatic stress disorder and making the new language to where Gen Z's, this younger generation are pulling into the world. They're now taking something that we've never heard of before and creating a whole counterculture tied to this movie. Being able to proliferate by just watching this film.

Wow, this, yeah, you feel like my mind just kind of been blown. But this, right, with this whole growth edge, I don't know, like, what is it? Right? There's a. I don't know, what is it like patriotism without politics? I don't know, I don't know. Like, that is great. Like wood.

Well, I have to say, like, because I can't speak, I'm a civilian, I can't speak for the veteran community. But I will say this, it's colorful, it's loyal, it's deeply committed. You know, look, I'm somebody that is just, I'm a tourist. I'm just lucky to be invited in for this period of time into the community for these last 14 years. But I will tell you there is a vast difference between my civilian friends and veteran friends. And Matt will tell you the same thing. Like, yeah, there's and that's with love. But there is. There's a level of loyalty and a code. I think a big part of it is, like any marginalized community is. Is the word, is not exclusive, but it's protective.

Yeah.

It's protective of its own right. Which is fair.

Yeah.

You know, and I think that. I think that. And again, I do not speak for veterans, but they don't want your charity. They don't want your hollow gesture. They don't, you know, and that all said, I think that. I think, you know, they've earned your respect.

Yeah.

Right. Because that's what this is. Right? Like having the courage to sign a blank check to your country with your life, you know, you don't get to choose the conflicts you get sent into. Right.

Yeah, I guess it's kind of what I was saying, like, but, yeah, like, what does that look like?

I think I, I, Yeah, I, I think. I think what it looks like is just taking sort of a shot at it here. I think the crossover here is. We're bringing you into a world that's extremely unique in so much that when I say we haven't seen a film like this before, I'm not telling you that because it's my opinion. I'm telling you that because that's what's been shared with us over the last year and a half, and we don't take that lightly. So it's showing you that we're not saying that this is all people's experiences at all. We're saying to you that this is a very common what we experienced in our research. And so the crossover is our communities having a greater understanding of the sacrifices that are made by some for all. Right? And as you know, this with just, like, our own empathy, here's a great anecdote to tie in. My brother, who joined us at one of the film festivals, he had no experience in this community, especially as a civilian. And after one of our screenings, you know, we all went out to a restaurant, and there's my brother in the corner hanging out with, you know, a bunch of veterans that, that, that served in OIF or OEF that are, that are his age, some of them that are multiple amputees. And at the end of the night, my brother said something to me, like. And he had this look in his eyes where he was just sort of blown away because he could see himself in them. And I think his, I don't want to say judgment, but his perception of, like, of what. That. What he thought it looked like and what it actually is. And that to fellowship with these men that he could picture being in a rock band with if it was given different circumstances, because it's not G.I. joe, you know, and that humanity, that enlightenment will stay with him for the rest of his life. His perception of it, how he'll talk about it, just all from that human experience. Right. And I think that, that, that alone, if we can start the conversation there, I think that we'll all benefit from it so much more and that will impact a lot of how we treat each other and how we, how we even choose. You know, this is not a political film. Right. But information is information, good information to inform us. Right. Because I can't say this enough like, you know, Sheepdog is not a political film. We are not political people. Because that would only do get in the way of telling the truth as, as it was shared with us.

Right.

That said, when I think about my boy Brad, or I think about George Rice, or I think about Harley, or I think about, you know, Corey or any of my brothers that have served, I do think it's important to aware, to be aware and to acknowledge what could put their children into conflict or what could, you know, our communities and just being aware of what that really is. Because when somebody is talking to you and sharing with you what it's like to jump over six foot cinder block walls at 3 o' clock in the morning with night vision on and you're literally playing the ultimate extreme sport. That's what's at stake. And it's not a movie. Yeah, that's, that's real life that people do that. Right. And they do that for whatever your beliefs are to protect us and to protect our way of life. And, and that's a very extraordinary thing. And I think that, that greater understanding for our, our communities and our population I think is a very healthy thing, you know, and it also helps those that have been in those situations or not been in those situations, but that have served the families to, to feel supported, you know.

Yeah. It's interesting when you say that it's. And I'll have one more question for you. I don't even think we think we got on the list, but it's like when you think about your body and the stuff that moves your body around, like it's easy to see your leg, it's easy to think about your brain, you don't think about your white blood cells.

Right.

Those are the protectors, right. We don't think about the veterans. Those are the protectors, right. It's kind of as above, so below, as within, so that we don't. The little things that we kind of just put off to the side, we don't really honor that. And so this is an opportunity for, you know, I mean, I know that Gen Z struggles with, you know, being one part of a community, to finding authenticity in anything and then saying, okay, well, this army thing or this military thing, whatever, isn't for me. And then if you're thinking about like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen to the world if there is an impending war, we have nobody that wants to go fight, then we have to draft everybody, whatever it might be. It's what comes of that. Are they really going to put their heart and souls into it or are we just so detuned from reality? So part of a call on this is if you're a parent and you've got to Gen Z, Gen Alpha. Well, Gen Alpha's probably a little bit too young, but Gen Z, you know, this is something they should watch because they will feel the heart and soul of it when they move in authenticity. Like I've never seen.

Absolutely 100. I could not agree with you more 100%. And I also think that, like, you know, we can also talk about what it, you know, as Matt and I were of service to the story, we were of service to this community. And that can be. Should not look. Be looked at as any different of volunteering in your community. And I think you can build a lot of character, especially as you're a young person, in having a greater understanding of your environment, whether you volunteer to work at the SPCA or at a charity or whatever that is, whatever that looks like. You know, I know that it's enriched our lives, you know, and definitely made us better people. You know, it's interesting. There's something I do want to touch on that came up earlier, and I'll be remiss to not say so. Sheepdog is derived from a metaphor that Lt. Col. David Grossman had originated in his compelling book. It's just stunning on combat. And it was a story that a Vietnam veteran had shared with him. And essentially, you know, it's the sheepdog protecting the flock and confronting the wolf. In our movie, we look at it as the. We take the metaphor a step further as. As the wolf being at your door. Cause Calvin, the character I play in his military service, he was living the literal sense of that, of protecting the flock and confronting the wolf, you know, in a very different situation than his civilian life. But it was Important to show in our story what that metaphor looks like in our civilian lives, you know, and I will say we've been very blessed that David Grossman took the time a week ago to privately screen the film. And he has given his love and blessing and endorsement of the film in such a humbling way of just understanding that, you know, you don't have to sacrifice your life to be the sheepdog. Right? The sacrifice can come in being in service of and walking that sheepdog's path. And that's important for civilians to know too, that in your own communities, like protecting your flock and confronting that wolf can come in so many different variations. And that to me is the connective tissue to the military community, to the civilian community, because anybody can be that person without having to necessarily serve.

I love that. One thing I will say, and I'm not just trying to like, because I was going to ask you about the name, so thank you. Read my mind again, because I know we went to that before. There's, you know, for those of you that follow me, you know, there are movies like the Matrix that are like, oh, it's this evolution in consciousness, right? You've got, you know, Free Guy and it's things that you kind of watch. What I've started to notice is I've deepened myself into feelings, is it's all a conscious experience. But there are some that move hearts, that truly move consciousness in a way. And to the counterculture thing we were talking about before, finding that cultural insight that you'll be able to derive from this and walk from it. The concept of post traumatic growth and that becoming something that is on the tip of everybody's tongue and creates a viral movement. You know, I mean, I'm kind of like, you know, if I could command one thing, like that would be the thing that I would want to command out of this. Those are very important elements that we as humanity, we are at this. We are, we are evolving as humans. And it feels like oftentimes we haven't because we keep playing the same game over and over again. But we're evolving as humans. Now. This is a film that opens a door for consciousness, for people to evolve. No matter what your religious background is, whether you are in a family of veterans or not, you know, somebody that's been impacted. But if you live in this country or you live in a place that has to defend themselves, that people have gone through trauma, you know, think about the white blood cells in your body that you don't show gratitude for every day this is happening. All around us. Yeah. You know, and now it's time for us to pay it forward. Whether it's in buying a ticket, buying a block of tickets, I'm not trying to sell, but it's a responsibility that we have. If you're hearing this message, to be able to put that out into the world and bring somebody along so that that rhythm of what you guys created starting 14 years ago. Right. In such a beautiful way that that came together not by accident, is now able to show into the world starting on in January. January 16th. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you guys have anything else to add, but.

We'Re just really grateful to be here, honestly. And. And we sincerely appreciate your. Your. Your kind words and your compassion and your understanding and. And. And sharing your own personal story with us, you know, and. And how that relates to the characters in the film. And I know the first time you had seen the film and when I first spoke to you and your passion for it, and you really lit up, and that's similar to what we've been really fortunate to see on the film festival circuit. And so our hope is, as we go out into the world with the film officially, that we continue to see that and we continue to start conversations, you know, whether that conversation is the drive home from the theater in the car. Right. That can elicit something, or a greater understanding of our own humanity. And I don't want to sound lofty to say that, but I'm only, again, just seeing what we've experienced. It's possible, and that would be one of our greatest hopes on this journey.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Thank you for having me.

No, thank you guys for coming. Traveling all this way, it's been. This has been a great drop in. I'm glad we did it this way.

Yeah, this is great. Yeah.

All right, well, you guys know what to do. One of the actions of the Trinity. Pay it forward. Buy a ticket. Okay. Buy a block of tickets. Donate. There's so many ways to get action on this thing. Elevate your consciousness. I mean, this is where we are as humanity right now. And so it's up to you to make the choice or not. But we're going to put it out to the world. We're going to keep putting it out to the world. This is what we do inside of this Miracle Academy container is create the miracles, and it's about being seen beyond belief. All right, thank you, and I love you.