This Daily Habit Saved His Life: Shaka Senghor on Journaling, Healing & Choosing a Higher Narrative

I was arrested, charged with open murder, sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison. It's one of the moments that's obviously the most regrettable moment in my life. That singular moment never goes away. And I ended up serving a total of 19 years, with seven of those years being in solitary confinement. Solitary confinement is one of the most chaotic, barbaric, inhumane environments that we allow to exist. So I started to really think about this and I was like, what is it about joy that I have to work to lean into it? I was fighting against myself and. And that's when I began to journal. It was so scary to look at my life on a page. And it was like, if I don't write, if I don't get these words out, I'm definitely going to die in prison.

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We're about to do something that we.

Have not yet done on Whole plus plus. My next guest has been in solitary confinement, guys.

He's been in prison, but he's on.

The other side of it now as a New York Times best selling author and entrepreneur, a leader, an inspirational and motivational speaker, and I am honored to have him here on the show today. Shaka Senghor is an inspirational speaker and entrepreneur and author of the New York Times best selling books Righting My Wrongs and Letters to the Sons of Society. A sought after resilience expert and recognized soul igniter in Oprah's inaugural Super Soul 100. Senghor has captivated and transformed global audiences with his extraordinary journey from incarceration to influence through raw authenticity and profound insight. He doesn't just share his story, he equips others with the exact resilience practices that fueled his own remarkable transformation. Proving that reinvention isn't just possible, it's within everyone's reach. Please join me in welcoming Shaka to the show.

All right, Shaka.

Hey.

Welcome to the show.

I'm super excited to be here.

Well, I'm thrilled to have you here. And I am going to be 100% honest and say you're probably unlike any other guest that I've had on the show. You've had quite a journey and quite a story. I think it's an important one. I think that men today don't know how to express themselves and don't know how to communicate, and it ends up showing up in different ways across all segments of society. But you've had a really unique experience. You have been in solitary confinement, you've been in prison, and you have come a long way out of that. You've got two New York Times bestsellers. We're working on the third here. Right. So I'm just super excited to hear your story and for my listeners and viewers to understand your history and your perspective, because I think there's a lot of chatter about all things right without understanding the shoes somebody else has walked through. So tell us a little bit about how, first of all, maybe you landed in solitary confinement and then how that transposed into this incredible journey of empowerment and educating others and really having a platform.

Yeah, thank you so much for asking that question. So I grew up in the city of Detroit, you know, in a household that was Lily on the outside looking in a model for middle class America. My dad was a military mom, homemaker, and unfortunately, in our household, it was abusive. Ran away when I was about 13 to 14 years old and got seduced into the crack cocaine trade.

At 13.

At 13. And so basically what I experienced in that culture was everything. The first six months in, my childhood friend was murdered. I was robbed at gunpoint. I was beaten nearly to death. And I remained in that culture, you know, despite all the trauma and the things that I was experiencing as a kid. It was kind of like, how do you even get out? Where do you even start at?

Did you know it was, like, wrong, or is it just sort of accepted and at that level or kind of where was your brain at the time?

You know, honestly, I don't. I don't think that I even thought about right or wrong. I thought more about safe or unsafe and like, where did I feel safe at? And so despite the high levels of violence, there was still a feeling of safety within my friend group. And, you know, three. Three years into that culture, I was shot multiple times. When I was 17 years old, standing on the corner of my block and, you know, went to the hospital. My friend took me to the hospital, ambulance never came. So a friend of mine took me to the hospital, got in, they extracted two bullets, left one bullet in, patched me up, and literally I was right back in my neighborhood. Like, not a doctor, nurse, or a social worker. Like, nobody was just like, hey, you're gonna. You're gonna have a. A mental experience that you're not even going to be aware of. I was impacting you beyond the physical. Yeah. And, you know, now what I. What I know now is this ptsd. Right. You know, but back then, as a kid, you just know that your body reacts differently when you see a car. You're angry and you're upset, and you can't really kind of explain those emotions. And for me, I've started kind of creating this narrative that if I found myself in conflict, I would shoot first. And tragically, and unfortunately, about 16 months or so later, I got into that conflict and I shot and tragically caused a man's death. And, you know, it's.

How old were you at the time?

I was one month into my 19th birthday.

So you're 19 and you've essentially killed somebody.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. And so it was, you know, it's one of the moments that's the. Obviously the most regrettable moment in my life, and one that, you know, that singular moment never goes away. You know, I was arrested, charged with open murder, sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison, and I ended up serving a total of 19 years, with seven of those years being in solitary confinement.

That's a long time.

Yeah.

So 17, 19 years, seven years in solitary confinement. How did you deal with those years and deal with the trauma and deal with yourself during that time?

Yeah, that's a, you know, that's a very well rounded, robust question. You know, it wasn't like a singular event, you know, like, you know, I have people, they meet me at this stage of my life and they're like, what was your kind of come to Jesus moment? Or what was that one thing? And I wasn't a model, you know, inmate. Like, I got into a lot of trouble early on. I was a hurt boy like Lily in a man's body. And. But what I experienced was these kind of what I call my three miracles. And one was I met these incredible mentors. These men are some of the most brilliant philosophers, scholars, legal minds, you know, that I've ever encountered within the prison system. Within the prison system, they were actually serving life sentences. And, you know, they just saw something in me that was redeemable, that I didn't see in myself. And they. They guided me to books, and books literally changed my life. And, you know, I was really fortunate. You know, I call it my luck. We talk about how, you know, some people are born to be lucky to be born in a certain area code, or they're lucky to be born into a family of wealth, et cetera. I was lucky to be literate. Average reading grade level in prison is third grade. And, you know, I walked in with a pretty high reading level. And so I was able to embrace those books and start to explore the deeper possibilities, disabilities in my mind simultaneously. I was still getting in trouble in the system and still kind of really, what I. What I look at it now is I was fighting against myself. And I'll never forget, I worked for a guy in a recreation named Tom Scheid. He was an incredible mentor and one of the people who worked in a prison who saw our humanity. And one day he asked me this question of what else can you do with your mind? He's like, as a parent, you're a great leader. Like, you're leading these guys, you're leading them into the wrong things. But they do listen to turn the.

Leadership in a different direction.

Right. Like, they do listen to you and follow you. And I just remember that. That query stuck with me for years. And then I was in solitary.

Why'd you get moved to solitary?

I got into a fight with an officer. Yeah. And so I ended up in solitary. And I was so angry because I felt like the officer had escalated it. He instigated. It was a whole. A whole bunch of that kind of like blame, blame, blame, without accepting responsibility for my role in it. I believe in conflict. We all have a role in it, and there's really no right or wrong. And, you know, I was. I'm in solitary. And the second miracle, you know, well, no, actually it was the third miracle. But I get this letter from my son at the time. His mom had told him while I was in prison, and because I couldn't call, I couldn't talk to him directly. I didn't know the concept.

You're held at this point now.

You're 27.

27 years old.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. And so I. I just started journaling. You know, I started with an essential question. I was reading a lot of philosophy, and one of the things I read in apology was that the unexamined life isn't worth living. And that's when I began to journal. And through journaling, I Just was like, I've never accomplished anything. You know, I've lived this short, angry, traumatized life, and I have nothing to show for my time here on earth. And that's when I just began to challenge myself to like, write and write books and, you know, and then I started to set my days up as if I was at a university. I would study different subjects. I was sent over to the library and get whatever books I could.

So you're self studying while you're in solitary confinement?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. I became like a scholar in this environment because what I. What I understand about trauma at that point was that I just got to keep my mind moving forward. You know, if I keep my mind moving forward, I can come out on the other side of this. And that's what the journaling was, was. That's what the meditation, the mindfulness practices, all these things I was reading and taking in and trying. I was kind of like a. My own little experiment. You know, I remember the first time I tried to meditate and like, all the things came up and I was.

Like, whoa, too much?

Yeah, it's too much going on. Right. But over time, you know, reading and learning that other people had that same experience.

It's interesting because you came from an abusive home, so you were set up with a cycle of anger to begin with. Right. Did that make you vulnerable to entering kind of the crack and, you know, drug sort of drug lane, so to speak. You know, when you were 13 or 14, like, was that element of anger there? Or were you looking for safety at that point in any peer group that would take you in?

I think it was more safety.

Okay.

I think it evolved.

So it begins with the desire for.

Safety, you know, And I've been examining this in my own life, especially the anger part, because, like, I. It wasn't until later in my years when I really began to examine my life on a deeper level. And I was like, oh, you actually were a really angry kid. You was an angry person. And the reason I didn't think they ever think I was angry because all my friends, parents, they loved me. They was like, oh, you're the smart one. You're always mannerable, you're always thoughtful. You know, I was never the one that started the fight, but I never avoided fights. I was always, like, in it. Yeah, just wait for somebody else to start it. Then I'm in it. And so I think part of it was anger, and I think the other part of it was like this desire to just be accepted in a safe environment and like, have, you know, that that sense of, like, everything's going to be okay and like, that was removed very early on. And then within the culture, you know, the culture of the streets, like, you're never stable. You're never, you know, your sense of safety is really not proportionate to day. To day life. You know, so it's like carrying a gun, I feel safe.

Right.

Even though I've never had gun training. You know, it's just like all these just kind of irrational ways that we react to what our experiences are.

So as you're sitting in solitary confinement and now, you know, you're journaling, are you able to move past anger through these journaling techniques and writing and things like that? What's happening with your mind and with your emotions as the years kind of in solitary confinement are going by? Because. And the reason I ask this is because we talk a lot about trauma. There's a lot of conversation around trauma and ptsd. And what does that mean? I talk about it as a physician because I see it in the exam room, and it looks like inflammation, it looks like high cortisol or hormone disruption or like all these different disorders. It can lead to an autoimmune disease. Like, you know, trauma can do these things to the physical body. And I feel like we talk about trauma a lot when it comes to the emotional body. Right. How it makes you feel, how you might be reactive or angry or any of those type of things, but we don't really talk about it mentally. And you're approaching trauma. Trauma from a more mental standpoint of let's keep the mind engaged, let's keep the mind moving forward. So I'm curious to see how, you know, the cycle of anger, the cycle of sort of, you know, you know, feeling unsafe. How does that shift or change once you're journaling and reading books?

Yeah, that's. That's a great question. You know, I remember when I first started journaling, it was so scary, like, to look at my life on a page. And the commitment I made to myself was literally right or die. And it was like, if I don't write, if I don't get these words out, I'm definitely going to die in prison. Like, I was so clear about what.

Were some of the first words that came out.

Some of the first words was acknowledging that I was really angry and that I was really sad by the sense of abandonment that I felt in that environment, the alienation from my family, the uncertainty of when the thing will end. You know, like, it was. It was I was so angry. And I think the first time I actually sat down to write was after somebody made me upset in the environment because it's chaotic. Solitary confinement is the. One of the most chaotic, barbaric, inhumane environments that we allow to exist in American society. You know, it's one of the things that, you know, I try to do in my work is talk about, because I really want people to understand what we're doing to other human beings. And I have no political agenda. I have a human agenda.

Right.

I think that what we do to human beings in that environment is literally cruel and unusual, and we can't have the expectation that we can treat people like that and they'll come out to society and play nicely. I'm really, again, I'm super lucky. Like, I'm. I'm not. I'm so clear that I'm lucky. And I came out with my own scars from that experience, scars that may or may not ever go away. So for me, when I. When I started writing, one of the things I set out to do was, like, I'm only going to write when I'm ready to get completely honest with myself, where I'm not going to run from the things that make me feel ashamed, that make me feel insecure, that make me feel uncertain about my future. I have to put it down on this paper, and then I have to come back and read it. And with the anger piece, what was really helpful was going back and reading my thoughts when I was really, really angry. And they were so irrational, so sporadic, the violent ideations that I had toward people, I was angry with the sense of disconnect I had from, you know, the emotions of, like, could I ever love my family again, who've left me behind me? So it's all these things that. That would come up and. And they were hurt. They hurt. You know, it hurt to really say, you know, I come from a family where we have such rich relationships. And then when I was in prison, everybody was gone.

Yeah.

And it was almost like I never existed and like, that family never existed. And that was devastating to write that down, because it's the one thing that I found in prison that we're all clamoring for, is this sense that somebody cares about us. You know, somebody like. Like in prison, mail call is probably the one time that the prison almost goes completely silent because everybody's waiting in anticipation and hoping that they got a letter, hoping that they got a card or postcard or something from a loved one. And so when I would write that Type of stuff down. It was so hard, you know, because I couldn't. I couldn't make the connection between why my family would abandon me.

Right.

And, like, who I. Who I am as a person. Like, I'm. I'm lovable. You know, I'm adorable. Like, in my mind, this is how I, you know, grew up. You know, the relationship I had with my family. And so it was things like that that was tough, you know, but it was like, you know, and I would be angry, but then I would go back and it. And I would be like, this is so illogical. Like, it doesn't make any sense because it's not how you really see.

It's almost like you're releasing and then you're examining. You're releasing and you're examining.

Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what I did. And. And it was so therapeutic to.

You're like your own counselor.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

So how long into that process did you feel a shift? And what was that shift?

I think it was probably about a very intense first year. Like, I still have all my journals at my home.

Yeah. I keep all of mine, too, by the way. And I'm scared that I keep them. I'm like, someone's gonna read these someday.

I was so lucky to get them out of prison. That was the one thing I was nervous. I was like, I gotta get these out of prison, you know, So I have them. And the first year was intense. It was like me against me, you know? And I think it's always our greatest fight. No. Yeah. Fight is us against. I say it's like our. Our best self against our worst self.

Yeah.

And that's what it was for me. It was like, me against me. Like, I. I'm fighting, you know, myself. But being able to go back and examine it was just, like, so profound, you know? And, you know, every. Periodically, I'll be cleaning up and reorganizing, and I'll come across my journals and I'll be like, all right, let me peek and see where it was like, who is this guy at 30?

Yeah.

You know, who was I at 28? You know, and it's so wild. You know, I have.

So you're like, so you got out of, what, 35.

You were out 38 when I got 38.

Wow. Okay.

I actually got out one day after my 38th birthday.

Wow. Well, why did you get out? Right. Because most people don't get out.

Yeah. No. So, like, in Michigan, we have a parole system. You get sentenced to a Minimum and a maximum.

Okay.

So My minimum was 17 years. My maximum was 40. So once you get to your minimum, you come up and you go to parole, and they determine if they think you're fit for society. And so I went through that process three times before they finally let me out. And so that's how I ended up being 19 years, because I ended up going back a couple of times. Yeah.

So, you know, you're doing this work, you finally get out and life is all around you now. Right. It's in some ways, when you're in solitary confinement, I would imagine that the external influences or the external pressures are maybe less. I don't know. And, you know, that would be my guess. You've evolved to a certain extent as you re. Enter society. What were your biggest challenges? What happened with your family? You know, how did you take the lessons from confinement and carry them with you in a real world?

That's really, really a great question. So coming out, I always describe it like Fred Flintstone walking into an episode of the Jets.

Yeah.

And basically, it's like a caveman walking into this futuristic world. So there were. There were two things happening simultaneously. One, I was really, really excited because I'm a nerd. Like, I love. I'm curious about technology and machines and all the things in mind. Yeah, a lot of. And then I was anxious. I was just like, okay, how do I catch up?

Right.

Like, the Internet didn't exist when I went to prison, and so I came home to the Internet. There was no smartphones, no tablets, none of these things. And so now I'm like, okay, how do I catch up in order to just be a productive member of society? And that was. I mean, I didn't know the difference between, like, a Word document and the Internet.

Oh, my gosh.

And so I had, like, all these fears, like, if I push save, is it going to get a computer virus? Like, it was just like, all these things. Right, right. But with. With family and with my reintegration, I just made a pledge to be patient with myself and to be. And to be honest with myself and to be okay with, like, not having it all figured out and to be okay when I wasn't okay. And I had made this kind of understanding with myself through journaling, that I couldn't. I couldn't hold on to anger with my family. You know, I couldn't. I couldn't. It wasn't going to serve any of us at any point. And then I thought about the younger members of my family, and I'm Like, I got a responsibility to them, so I have to show up in a way that keeps us connected so that I can actually, you know, mentor and encourage and guide the younger members of my family.

Were they at risk as well for going down the same path?

Absolutely. Yeah. And, I mean, some of them ended up down that same path, which, you know, I actually talk about it in the new book of, like, you know, one of the chapters when I talk about grief is grieving. These things that we wish we could have done something different about or we take on the responsibility of that really, you know, those. They made those decisions. They had all the information.

Right.

And. But it still hurts. You know, it's. It's my nephew. I literally just wrote. My Two of my nephews and my niece were incarcerated this past Sunday. You know, I carved out a little time to write them and encourage them and, you know, hope that they're doing the things that they need to prepare for life after. But all of that was, you know, I attribute to being able to go back and look at that journey that I was on for it. I wrote down a lot of things that I want. I'm a big belief in manifestation. What do I want to happen in my life? You know, and so when I was journaling, that led me to write my first book because I just needed to complete something.

Right.

And then I got.

What was the first book? What was the name of the first.

It's actually the first book is called Crack, so that one has never been public mainstream, but it's a detective series.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah. So I started off writing fics, and I wrote four fiction books, a book of poetry, all in confinement, all in prison.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah. And then I wrote three books post incarceration, which all have been published mainstream. So I still have these treasures that. That are in my. In my storage at home.

Right.

But I got out initially, and I was hustling those novels, like, out of the trunk of my car. So that's what I did. I came home, and wherever people were gathered, that's where I would go sell books at. And that led to me writing my first book, which became a New York Times.

And what was the title of that first book?

Righting My Wrongs. So that was the first mainstream book.

That was the first one. And the second one was Lessons, Letters to the Sun Society, Letters to the. What were you trying to accomplish with each of those books?

So with. With righting my wrongs. That came as a result of these talks I would do when I was out selling my novel. And people would always say to me, you don't sound like someone who's been in prison. And they meant it in the sweetest and kindest way. But what I realized is that there's kind of a narrative about who people think are in prison. And because I had met so many brilliant, incredible people who just had been traumatized and had been through a lot, you know, that led them down that path, I wanted to tell the truth about the journey that led me there so people can have a full story. Right. And you know, it's kind of complex because when you, when you have, you know, done something that leads you to prison, people only want you to kind of lock into that one singular act and they don't want a framing around like your life experiences that lead you to that path. You know, I didn't wake up with, you know, the dream of going to prison. I actually dreamed of being a doctor and an artist. Like that was my little d dream from the time I was a kid. And things happened that led me to make these choices. And there's a duality there. I'm still responsible, I'm accountable, I'm remorseful. And there's a holistic reality that also shaped who I was at that time, just like it's a holistic reality that shapes who I am today.

Well, we're not one dimensional creatures, right? I mean, we have a physical body, we have a mental body, we have an emotional body. And then there's duality within all of us, right. It's been written about, it's been talked about in so many different ways. Every religious text talks about it also. Right. And it's a lot about the fight against ourselves, right. Which one's going to win at any given moment. And that shadow self doesn't always necessarily look like going down the path of drugs and violence and murder. It can also look like negative self talk and, you know, staying in wrong relationships or eating bad food, like that's your negative self. So I think we're all in different scenarios in that battle all the time. You're just in a very extreme or were in a very extreme representation of that. Right. You know, and so as you worked with, as these books have come out and you've had this journey and this, this journey of shifting from anger, having then the trauma of what happened to then really, you know, trying to elevate, right, and rise above all of that and embrace this higher, higher self. You know, what has, what have you noticed in others, you know, what have been, I know you've worked with CEOs, I know you've worked with athletes, I know you've worked with, you know, many high profile people. And some of these patterns are mirroring in what are you seeing in them? Even though we've had a whole conversation about prison and solitary confinement, what are you seeing in them? In a different culture, in a different set of circumstances? What's the parallel?

It's such a great question. I think you, you, you, you really touched on it when you talked about how all the religious texts talk about our shadow self. We all have our hidden prisons. And I have seen it show up in so many different spaces with so many people who are amazing, who are highly accomplished, and then you get into a conversation and they're like, you know, I just won a game. But three days ago I was thinking about taking my life. You know, I just, you know, sold the company. But I'm also in the middle of a divorce. And so I. What I started to notice when I would go out and do these talks was that people would come up and they would just open up to me. And I started to realize it later in, you know, my work, that vulnerability attracts. Vulnerability.

Interesting.

It really attracts people. They're, they're ready to just open up because this is what this, Our friendships are built, right? You meet somebody is something to come, and y' all open up, y' all talk about it. And because I've been so transparent in my life, it's just kind of like this, this subconscious invitation where people will come and they're, they would talk about their children who are navigating addiction. I mean, suicidal ideation, you name it, they're talking about it. Things that are happening at work, things that are happening at home. And I realized I was like, people have these hidden prisons, you know, and it really came full circle for me during the pandemic. I had a lot of friends, you know, in LA who were, they had condos and apartments and it was really hard for them to be alone. And you know me, I'm like, oh, I get a chance to rest and relax and take a break. And I had just bought a home. And then it struck me. I was like the uncertainty piece. They don't know when this thing is going to end. And so I did two things. One, I just opened up my home. I was like, listen, you could come and work in the backyard. Just come. You don't even have to ask. Just come back there and we can, you know, we didn't know what was going on with other things so we can be socially distant, but we'll be in one place. And then I decided to write this kind of piece of, like, hey, here's, like, seven things I learned in solitary that you can apply to this moment. Because what I realized is that the uncertainty part was the biggest thing that people were struggling with. When is this thing going to end? That's what happens in solitary confinement. You never know when it's going to end.

Interesting.

And so all these life lessons that I had learned in that environment, I started to see people. I was. I mean, I was getting calls from everywhere. You know, after I wrote the piece, like, Oprah called and was like, listen, we need to help people. You know, let's hop on and talk about it. Let's talk about these things. And that's when I was like, you know, people are navigating these hidden prisons, and they really don't know how to get out of them.

What are some of the biggest hidden prisons you've seen?

Anger.

Anger.

Shame. The inability to forgive, which is a really, really tough one. That one is so hard. The shame is really interesting because I think it really undergirds anger in my experience, what I realized when I started examining my anger. But I realized that I had shame attached to an experience I had when I was a kid where a trusted neighbor attempted to molest me. And in retaliation for that, I broke into his home. And then I got in trouble, and my parents never really asked me to. You know, they never worked to get to the truth. Like, I wasn't a kid that was just, like, randomly doing things in that way. And I was really angry with my parents, and I was really angry with this man who was a trusted family friend. And then I was also ashamed because they never said, hey, we actually want to know what led you down that path. And it wasn't until one day I just was. I was sitting up, and I was like, I'm about to call my parents and ask them if they actually know why I broke into this man's house. And we had the most powerful conversation. You know, it was beautiful. And the vulnerability there was just, like, you know, amazing. And then my mother, she just started opening up about all these things, and it was, like, incredible. And I was like, oh, this is the thing. Like, the anger really is. Is a mask for the shame, and it's one.

Anger is a mask for shame.

Yeah. Yeah.

And would you say that a lot of men are walking around that way?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you know, we. We live in a very, you know, being a Man, navigating the world is a very complicated thing. It seems like it's really simple.

Yeah, you could just power your way.

Through thing and knock things down. It's hard because a lot of men don't want to be there. And that's where the shame comes in at. A lot of men don't want to be macho and don't want to be hyper masculine, but in order to survive you, they're actually put into a mold where, you know, you almost only survive by trampling over others. And it's not just women that get trampled over. Kids trump lower other men.

Right.

You know, there's a hierarchy.

Who's gonna win?

Right. And then you get into, you know, I get, I have deep, rich conversations with men about vulnerability. But I always tell people I have a cheat code. And the cheat code is I've already lived through a whole bunch of tough stuff. So men tend to trust me differently than they would trust, say, a man who hasn't lived through the tough stuff, but he's communicating the same really important messages. And, and you know, sadly and unfortunately it just works. Right. So I go in, I talk to the kids who are in these tough schools. And you know, sometimes they had these incredible teachers, these very intelligent, you know, sweet disposition men who are teachers. And they won't listen to them until someone like me comes in. And it's the kind of, you know, this, the hard exterior, even though I'm a sweetheart on the inside.

Right, right.

You know, they get them the hardcore stuff.

Right, right.

But then they crack open. And these boys, when you see me walk into these schools, the way that they hug me, it is a thing that you can tell that they're yearning for a soft space, but the world doesn't create that for them. That they have to wear the armor, they have to be tough and they have to be a leader and they have to be all these things that really are counterintuitive. What it means to be human. You know, there's a duality to us. There, there's, there's a, you know, there is a time to be a warrior. There is a time to put that armor on and go out and do what you got to do to take care of business, and then you take it off. At some point, of course, like, that should be like. The ultimate goal is to create as many spaces as possible for you to take the armor off, you know, and so, you know, I think I, you know, doing it now as a dad and as a mentor, you know, I see these I see these sweet boys. My son, we travel. We've been traveling a lot recently, and he's 13 and all while we're traveling, he like falls asleep on my shoulder and he like just, you know, nuzzles up to me and it's the most beautiful thing, you know, because what I realized in that is that I've created a level of safety within our relationship to where he doesn't have to question, you know, nurturing.

These are things that keep coming up as you're talking, like a lack of safety, creating safety. Anger, kind of conjoined with shame. Right. You know, using your mind to push, to push through that. You know, what are, are these common themes, no matter who you're talking to, that you see over and over again?

Absolutely.

Like CEO, Big athlete.

Yeah.

Inmate. Like, are these the things that are just resonating across our experience?

It's so universal.

Are there others that I'm missing?

I think it's the other side of it, you know, like what. So vulnerability. What is. What it led me to is like the deepest sense of love, really understanding about what joy is and giving myself permission to be in joy, to have dreams and aspirations that you get a chance to share and you don't have to like, hold them close to your chest. Like those things are, are, you know, there's, there's hidden prisons attached to that. Like, we kind of won't allow ourselves to open up freely. You know, we won't allow ourselves to be aspirational without kind of tempering it with some other kind of savior complex that's kind of built into our culture. It's like, oh, I want to, I want to be really successful as a artist, but I have to give away most of my earnings to be a good person. Right. Yeah. You know, so, you know, it's there, there's well intended prisons, you know, I like to call them. Right. So it's the, you know, you've been dating and then it doesn't work out, but you're like, you know what, we should just be best friends. How are you going to get to the relationship you really want if you're still kind of hanging on to this like, unending thing that kind of is like, oh, we're besties, we're lovers. We're not. We're whatever, you know, helicopter parents where they're like, their intentions are probably amazing. They want to get their kid through life safe and well. But then you don't allow the kid to build resilience. You don't allow them to problem Solve. And so these things become like these well intended prisons that really hold us back from living the best life that we can, you know, and it's the same thing, you know, you walk into a workspace and you already start with the narrative of that there's, there's ceilings and there's only so far I can go, you've already lost it, you know, and it doesn't mean that systemically these things don't exist, but you also can walk in like, you know, I think there's an escape hatch in this ceiling. So let me find that, let me figure that thing out now. You have more agency, you have more opportunity, you have more creativity, you know, you have more intentionality. And that's how I've approached my work. Like I've. The things I've done in the world like no one would have looked at 15 years ago and be like, you know, you'll be a C suite executive at a, you know, nine billion dollar company, right? Because no one would have thought that I can remove those barriers in my mind that allow me to remove barriers in society. And so, because I don't, I approach life through this lens of like, yes, there's an obstacle, yes, there's adversity, and then I'm also brilliant and I'm also capable and I'm also strategic and I'm also curious. And so all of those kind of tools that we can put in our toolbox, those are the keys that just open up life in a different way and it allows us to live a more magical, meaningful, purposeful life. But you have to give yourself the agency to do it. And the other narratives, they're real for other people. But I mean, to me it's always like, what is the narrative that I believe? You know, that's the differentiator.

You think we have a responsibility to rise into that higher narrative, like personally, individually, and then of course, as a society too.

I think responsibility is a pretty strong word because it almost seems as if I would have to. And we don't. We can choose the other.

You can choose the other way.

Yeah, you can choose the other way. Right? Because we're always choosing. You know, it's like, you know, I could choose to have a six pack or I can choose to be like, you know what, I had one before, so I'm good, I just want to eat. You're right, I did enjoy food and not work out as much as I used to. But, you know, those are. We're always choosing, right? And we get to choose our adventure. And that's the. The thing about all of this for me is like, I. I am. I find myself rekindling this kid, like, awe for life. You know, I used to get on. Put on punishment when I was a kid, and my parents, we couldn't watch TV or radio or anything, so I would read Encyclopedia Britannica or other books that. Yeah. And I was just going, like, these adventures in my mind, you know, and now I'm like. One of my hidden prisons was that I've recently kind of recognized because some of these things are recurring, was that it was hard for me to fully lean into Joy. And it was hard for me to really put. Plant my feet firmly on the ground. Like. Like literally physically, like, I'm always like, one foot is up. And I was like, what is that about? And I'm like, oh, I'm not used to being anchored because my life has been so untethered. I moved around a lot when I was in prison. I served 19 years. I was transferred 19 times to 11 different prisons. So I started to really think about this, and I was like, what is it about Joy that is so hard for me that I have to work to lean into it? Not that I won't go into it, but it just takes work for me to get there. And it hit me. Some friends of mine, they invited me on. I mean, this was the most incredible trip. You can even script the vacation better than this was. It was otherworldly, right? So they invite me on this trip. I remember thinking to myself, like, my brain went into this mode of like, eh, do I want to put the work in to get to Rome and do the thing? And blah, blah. And I was like, that reckoning of, like, what is happening inside of me, where that comes up. And I was like, oh, the inability to access joy is based on survivor's guilt. And so then it just started being like all these other different things where I started to recognize my life, where the resistance to just leaning in and letting go was attached to the shame. It's attached to the, you know, all these other things. And it was the most liberating thing for me, you know. And then I went on that trip and it was like, incredible. Oh, my God.

It was like, how do we help people that are in these prisons? Because as you're talking, I mean, I can think of so many different scenarios and situations. Like, you know, let's say they're listening and they recognize, okay, I'm in this prison of shame. I'm in a prison of, you know, doubt or whatever. Whatever it is, you know, how do they. How do they get themselves out of this? You had a long period of time to write and to journal and to process. Not everybody takes that path, as I'm sure, you know. Right. Being in solitary confinement. But what.

How.

How do they see themselves out in a way that's healthy and productive and can lead them to joy and love, which are ultimately, at the end of the day, like the emotions where we want to be the majority of the time, you know?

Yeah, that's a great question. And this, honestly, is one of the reasons I wrote the book. I had an experience, I think, two birthdays ago, went to this thing called, like, the Porsche driving experience.

Yeah, I think I bought that for my husband.

Yeah. Yeah. So my wife, we had to get to meet for my birthday.

We don't know what to buy you guys, Right?

No, that's the perfect buy that ever year.

I'm happy.

But I remember this moment in the car with the. With the instructor. And, you know, I was getting ready to emerge, and I got ready to look in the back mirror, and he put his hand over the mirror and he was like, listen, what matters is really what's in front of you. And I was just like, so deep. And he was like, all these crashes that happened as people are looking back because, you know, we're on that aggressive, you know, the track. So, you know, it's an aggressive track. You gotta be, you know, eyes on the road, you're driving 100 miles an hour. And I was like, that is what I want to do for people. Let me take the mirror. You stay focused on the path ahead. I want to give you these guiding principles in this book that's going to allow you to keep moving forward. And then trust me, like, it took me a long time to get to them, but once I got to them, it, like, my pathway forward was accelerated.

Wow.

Like that, that. The meditation, the mindfulness, the journaling, like, it moved me to a space of really understanding the power that my mind possessed and the opportunity to live a different life in a way that was just mind blowing. And so I really wanted to create a framework to make it accessible to people, to not overwhelm them and feel like you got to do all the things at once. So literally one step at a time, you know?

Is that in this book? Tell us about. Tell us what you're talking about in this book. And it's how to be free, how to get out of prison. There we go.

Yes. A proven guide to escape your life's Hidden Prison. And so, you know, a lot of the, a lot of self help books, which I love by the way.

Right.

I have a whole library wall full of them. But sometime I'm, I'm a little frustrated that they're not based on their own experience. This is one of those books that is like, I'm telling you what I've actually done.

Yeah.

I'm not telling you to manifest an amazing life based on somebody else experience. I'm telling you I have manifested the most incredible life possible for myself because of these guiding principles. I'm literally telling you that I found joy in a way that I did not think was possible because of these lessons in being able to go back and identify and kind of string out things. Right. You know, I talk about some of the incredible mentors I have in the book, some of the incredible mentees that I get an opportunity to be in relationship with and how I've overcome those things. And I share deep, meaningful, purposeful stories. And you know what I'm excited about is as you move through the book, you just feel yourself organically getting lighter in spirit and energy. And I get a chance to just share some fun stories, some anecdotal stories, some things that inspired me to live the life that I live. And so it's literally what I believe is my life's purpose. That's how I started writing a book. I started with this essential question, what have I been called into this world to do? And I began to really reflect on all the people in my life for the past, I want to say the past 13 years or so. I have got a message every day from someone who's read my work, who's heard one of my talks, who's listen to one of my interviews. I mean, literally every day. Thank you for opening me up to this idea of myself. Thank you for helping me talk myself off the ledge over and over. And being able to do it with everyday people, highly accomplished people, has been incredible. I mean, I have tons of friends who are entrepreneurs, CEOs of big companies.

It's a universal story.

Yeah, I work with a lot of athletes. Boxers, basketball players, football players. And one of the things that's always interesting with the football players is like when you actually see them and you're like, oh my God, this is a kid. Yeah, because they got the helmets on.

So they seem like larger than life.

And they're really like, they're like babies. They're like, they're like babies and they're trying to figure out, you know, how to solve problems. And, you know, what happens when, you know, they're not winning and they're not on the winning team and they don't get the new contract, you know, and then they're like, man, this is really tough. So, you know, having those experience, I just found that these lessons are universal. And in the early reactions to it, I feel really, really good about that. Is doing exactly what I thought it's supposed to do.

That's always such a good feeling, you know, as I. As I think about everybody out there struggling in their own ways. And like, you're saying it could be things that were like, okay, that's not a big deal. You didn't get a contract, whatever, right? But for that person, that's a really big deal, right? What is the one thing, you know, that you would tell, you know, men to do, everyone to do, to start to break free out of these perpetual prisons or out of these habitual prisons? Because sometimes I think they become, like, muscle memory. Almost like we instantly park in some of these spaces. What is the one thing we can do to start breaking free?

I would say the one thing that I would tell men specifically is you have to eject the tape. And what I mean by that is that we've been handed this. This tape, which is the playbook for life, right? Here's what you have to be. You have to be a provider. You have to be a protector. You have to pay all the things you have to. All the Whatever. Whatever that is in that playbook, right? It's pretty consistent. You gotta eject that tape. You gotta throw that one out and start over. You have to have the courage to say, you know what? I get a chance to write this movie, you know, I get a chance to say, hey, I actually want to be a nurturer. You know, I want to be the fun person, you know, I want to be a healthy, soft place, you know? So that's the thing. You got to eject that tape. And it's. It's so. Like, it's so amazing, you know, to be a nurturing dad in the narrative. Yeah, It's. It's like. It's so. It's. And I see it, like, I do see this awakening with a lot of the men in my dad's circle. And then I would also say to men, follow the. Follow the kind of models that women have laid out for us. Go have that spa day. Like, yeah, go take care of yourself.

Do that stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Me and my friends, we do this. We have this. And it's a male version of it. Right. Like, I don't think we have to. I think sometimes I think we over index and we want to go to complete opposite way of like, no, we want super soft. I'm never going to be that. I'm still going to watch ufc.

Right.

And then I can still tuck my son in and fold his little clothes and all the things. But my friend and I, we would do these spa days and it's the best because it would be like, literally, we would be like, all right, we're gonna hit the hot tub, we're gonna hit the spa, we're gonna cold plunge, and then we're gonna tread water, and then we're gonna drink a lot of tequila.

Yeah.

And it's like rinse and repeat, literally. And I mean, we would have the best day and.

But you're around men too, other men. And I think men need other men, and they're not. You guys aren't very great about reaching out and like forming that the way women do, I think. And that's something I keep hearing about over and over.

Yeah. And especially as we get older, you know, way are, you know, kind of organic social orientation. Right. So we gather around sports and, you know, things like that, gaming. And so as you get older and those things are not like your primary way of entertaining yourself, you know, that that pool kind of starts to shrink and, you know, if you're lucky, maybe you start playing golf. But, you know, as you get physically, you know, your physical well being changes and things like that. And so we have to be a little bit more intentional, you know, how do we gather around things that matter? And I do think we do it in ways that we're not always credited for.

Right, Right.

Like, you see a guy pull up at the gas station with a nice car, you'll get a crowd of guys relatively quickly. Oh, let's. What is that? Blah, blah. Right. And I think we even have to acknowledge those things as part of our social connectivity. And then we build on them in other ways in our life. And so that's what gets me excited about this book is really the conversation that I'll be having with a lot of men, especially the younger men, who are like, you know, they want to go off into the world and figure it out. But the themes of the book are very universal and, you know, the stories are very universal. And, you know, I've been so fortunate. I have four sisters. I call them my four mamas.

Yeah.

I have an incredible network of beautiful, smart, really highly accomplished women that Keep me grounded as, like, their brother. And, you know, we have rich, meaningful conversations. Which is another thing I highly encourage men to do is, like, really pursue platonic relationships with women. That. That's. That's been. It's one of the reasons that I'm, like, married now, because my women friends have really helped me understand the power of love, like, what real love looks like in a relationship and healthy love. And. And so. So I highly encourage that.

That's incredible. So the book is available September 9, right?

September 9.

Everywhere books are sold. I love it. I actually want to copy how to Be Free. I think this idea of the prisons we create, and then for men in particular, the kind of mask of anger that so many men live behind, it doesn't always have to be to the extreme violence standpoint, but many men live behind that mask and don't recognize it or are really crying out for help and just don't know how to get their way out of it. I think it's a really story. So thank you for taking time to be here today. I have to ask you my favorite question. What makes you whole?

What makes me whole, I would say, is really showing up authentically as who I am. Like, there's nothing more important than me. Yeah, be me. It's the true meaning of being free. It's like being able to show up and hold in every part of who I am is, like, the best. You know, when I was. When I worked at the company, I showed up just how I showed up today. I got cool sneakers, my hat. But I come to handle business, you know, But I'm like, that's just really important to me. It's like, to really show up authentically as myself and, you know, humor and, you know, that's the other thing that I love about this book. My other books, you know, a lot of the conversation was, like, super, super serious and super deep.

Right?

And it's. You know, these. This. This book generates a lot of deep conversations, but it's also fun. Like, I've had a lot of fun winning that life. So being able to show up as our.

What a life, what a story. And, you know, what a model for so many people, so many lessons that they can learn from you, you know, you probably have a bigger role. Just even thinking about young men today, even young men on the streets that can, like, look up to you and be like, there's a way. There's a different way, you know, I think it's incredible. Well, thank you for being here with me today. I appreciate it. What a what an incredible story. And I hope everyone gets a copy of it and hands it to somebody that they love and hopefully we can all work forward in getting to our true, authentic self and breaking free. And for everybody else watching and listening, remember I post new episodes every week and check out Shaka's new book, how to Be Free.

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