#031 How To Build A Profitable Online Business with Cliff Ravenscraft

So you guys have no idea how excited I am to have Cliff Ravenscraft on Personal Brand Breakthrough this week. Cliff is someone who I've been following for many, many years and really excited to dive into some, maybe some deeper topics today because I think Cliff is the person who can really help to set the stage for how authenticity and vulnerability can really help you in your business. Cliff, thank you so much for being here today.

Cheryl, it is my honor. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, I wanted to dive in first on the conference that you just successfully ran, Free the Dream, and you did a video on YouTube as really a complement to that, to kind of talk about the experience and kind of impact it had on you. Can you tell us about Free the Dream and what that is?

Well, Free the Dream is a conference that is kind of my vision of, of what I feel most called to do in this world, which is basically helping people reset what they believe about who they are and what they're able to achieve in this world. I believe that whatever, wherever we are in life right now, uh, we are not living up to our full potential. And I think that if we wake up and there is, uh, oxygen in our lungs, then I believe that we're here for a purpose. And quite frankly, I don't think any of us are living up to the life's for which we were created. I think that we were created for so much more than what we're currently experiencing. And so I, I want to devote my life to entertaining, educating, encouraging, and inspiring others, uh, in such a way that people are encouraged to take action, to change their beliefs about who they are, what they're able to achieve, and, and to understand why they are getting the results that they're getting in life. And how to completely change the results they're getting in life.

So— And isn't it, isn't it too, Cliff, about, you know, taking responsibility for where you are in that, you know, we're, we're aware we each individually are as a result of our own choices and our own mindset?

Well, that's exactly it. So at Free the Dream, one of my very first talks is, is a formula that will help people understand how to get whatever act or results you want in life. And, and it's called the TEAR formula. So it's either gonna— this formula will bring you tears of sadness and sorrow and shame, and/or it's tears of joy and elation and satisfaction. And it's T plus E leads to A equals R. So I'm not a math guy by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact is, is that we— whatever results that we get in life, where we are today is a result of our actions. So actions equal our results. So if you want some different result in life, for example, it— for me, I spent most of my adult life as an extremely obese human being. I was— 3 and a half years ago, I weighed 272 pounds. And I had struggled with that most of my adult life. I had the result of this big, huge, gigantic fat body on top of this bone structure. What the heck is up with this? But I always wanted to change things. But the problem was, is that my, the, the, that react, that result of that physical body was the result of all the actions. The actions were overeating consistently, uh, addiction to sugar and the action of refusing to work out. Uh, so, so every single time I put those actions into place, I'm going to have the results that I had. So what, why do we do the things that we do? And that is like, why, why this action? Why do I refuse to go to the gym? Why do I overeat? Why do I do the things that I do that are leading to these results? And it has to do with the T and the E of the formula. It's our thoughts and our emotions, our thoughts and emotions. By the way, any thought or emotion that we have repeatedly becomes what we call a conditioned belief system, right? So it is our conditioned beliefs about how the world works, what, who we are, what's expected of us, or just how life should be. We, we develop this thing called a belief system, and it's our beliefs that lead to the act, to the actions that we take, and therefore to the results that we get. So if you want different results in life, we all know that you need to change the actions. But the question is, how do you change the actions? And you cannot change the actions until you discover what beliefs you have that are leading to that. And you have to, you have to actually disassociate yourself from those beliefs, and you need to replace them with new empowering beliefs. And that's, that's what I help people do. That's what I feel most called to do in this world. And that's what Free the Dream was about.

Yeah, and I just think it's so powerful and it's something that's so needed because there are so many people who are living in mediocrity and they're not living up to their potential. Back in 2008, you decided to take some radical action of your own to— I think you had a long history or professional career as an insurance— in insurance, and then you decided to do something radically different. So you took action to get to where you are, and I want to just I want to dive in a little bit on the journey, kind of on a 30,000-foot scale here, but the journey for you was about taking action that would lead you to the place where you are now, where you can impact people at this level. But a lot of people start off and they don't really, they don't really know what to do, and they're afraid to be their authentic selves. And from my experience, having started to get to know you probably around, I want to say maybe 5 or so years ago, you have always nailed authenticity. You have always been vulnerable. You've always put your heart wear on your sleeve. Tell me about that and the importance that that's had in building the business that you have now.

Well, I think a lot of it has a lot to do with my belief system about just being honest, the value of honesty and authenticity and transparency. I don't understand this world of being fake or trying to pretend. Some people say, you know, the one thing I don't like about social media is that everything you see in social media it's other people's best stories that they're telling about themselves. And I'm like, well, you know, I see that. I definitely do. And there's— I think there's— I think you can go too overboard on sharing too much. Not saying that you have to be inauthentic, but at some point, if you're experiencing some down times in your life, I think it's okay to occasionally show up and say, I'm not doing so well right now. And you know what? That's why you haven't seen me post very much in the last couple weeks. Uh, but as I've been dealing with some things, here's what I've learned as a result. And I think, I think there's that level of appropriateness there. I think I, I'm totally into transparency, totally into authenticity, but I think that some people can go too far to the extreme where quite frankly, they become a Debbie Downer and you turn people off.

Right.

So there has to be some sort of balance. You don't want to be that happy-go-lucky, my life is always awesome. You know, there's— I don't know if you ever saw the original Lego Movie. They have that theme song that says, everything is awesome.

Yes, I know which one you mean.

You know what? You know what? Everything is awesome and you can define your own meaning about what circumstances you have in life. But there are times when you are struggling and things don't go according to your expectations, and sometimes you just need to— you suck it up and you say, you know what, I'm going to trade my expectations for appreciation. What can I appreciate in this situation? What can I learn from this? And even though you may have all the techniques and strategies in the world for controlling your emotional state, you just still have some down times. And I think it's okay to be honest about those It's just, I think that you have to be cautious of how much is, how much is too much of crossing the line. I have a friend of mine that I've been watching some consistent content lately and just very vulnerable stuff. And it resonated to my core. It's like, yes. And then I found that it's like, okay, this is rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. It's like, Okay, now I was— it was resonating, but I gotta tell you, you're bringing me down, you know? And so it's like, ah, where do you draw that line? And I'm always in that situation as well. It's like, I want to make sure— I'll give you a perfect example of this.

Okay.

So I was at the gym the other day, which is— anybody who follows me know that that's not a shock.

You're always at the gym.

I spend about 10 to 15 hours a week at the gym because I'm absolutely addicted.. And I was at the, I was at Snap Fitness the other day and I was on Instagram and halfway through my workout, I had decided, you know, I'm gonna just like say something on my Instagram story. The one thing I hate about this gym. And it was gonna be my rant about the fact that they play this FM radio station so loud over the PA system. And it's very rare does this radio station ever play music.

Right.

And it's just like, this is so distracting. I mean, everybody who comes to this gym has earbuds in. We want to listen to our things. I can't hear myself think. It's like, this is why I hate coming to this gym. This is why I go to the— and so I was, I actually, believe it or not, I recorded that as a 15-second rant. And I hit publish and I'm like, I'm deleting that. I'm deleting that. It's not because I wasn't being authentic, because trust me, I authentically felt what I shared. But how is this helpful? How, how does this promote hope? How does this promote healing? This is just one man's rant and it really doesn't add value to people's lives.

So Cliff, I mean, in many ways what you're talking about is that you did it, but then you recognized, wait a minute, this is off-brand for me, in that it's going against the grain of what it is I'm trying to do in the world, which you described at the top of this interview, which is to help. So it wasn't, is that what you mean, that you didn't feel like it was really aligned with your overall big message?

And it wasn't. Yes, I think it's a little bit too fancy for me to think that I was intentionally thinking about being off-brand, but it was out of character of me. It's out of integrity. With who I am as a person. Because quite frankly, I'm a different person today than I was 10 years ago. All right? Now, unfortunately, the person I was 10 years ago was the father that fathered my 3 children for a majority of their— you know what I'm saying? And I gotta tell you, there are some things that I see in my oldest daughter, for example, and some of the personality traits that she has and I'm like, man, I wish I would have been a different father for those earlier years because I see her, it's like, ah, and I'm like, wait a second. The things that I see in her that I wish I wouldn't have been able to, I wouldn't model for her. Here I am getting ready to do something and just be negative and complaining. This adds no value to anybody's life. And I want, I just want to be rid of complaining. I mean, what did— I mean, seriously, what good is it going to do?

So, yeah, staying in integrity and staying in that place that's in character, you know, that's a character, but staying within, you know, what you believe is within my values, your behavior.

Like, yeah, yeah, that it's staying in integrity with the values that I hold, uh, important in life.

In all the years I've been following you, Cliff, You have provided just so much amazing content. And you're not afraid to give, give, give. Like, you have a giving mentality, you have a service-minded mentality when it comes to content. And one of the things that I hear a lot from people, like, they ask me, they're like, but am I going to be giving too much away? What is your response to people who are afraid that if they provide too much, you know, value, let's say, within their content strategy that they're going to give too much away. What's your thinking on that?

I, I, I'm so glad you asked this question. I'm so glad you asked it right now because first of all, I've always had the philosophy that you just, you can't give too much away. It's not possible. Uh, there's too much within you to give that you'll never run out there. The, you, You can't outgive people. It just— there's so much of you to give. So number one, you can't do it. You give away and new stuff comes in. It's just amazing how that works. And the reality is, for especially in the field of podcasting, I hesitate to even bring up my podcasting past because I've just divorced myself from that brand. But over the years of doing podcast coaching and consulting, I would take things that people were paying me $2,000 to sign up for a 4-week course And everything those people were paying me for, I would give away for free in my weekly podcast or my YouTube videos and all this email list and all this other stuff. Giving it away, giving it away, giving away. And there are a couple things that I will tell you. Number one, when you give it away, you demonstrate your level of credibility in the space. You demonstrate your area of expertise, your level of expertise. Giving away your best work is the way for people to understand how good you are at what you do. So give— don't give away just some of your stuff, give it all away. And I know that, that— trust me, it feels weird to say the words, but it— here's what I have found. Number one, people understand how much value you have when you give— when you're giving your best. But the other thing is, is Yeah, you could go and listen to the last 200 or 300 weekly podcast episodes or watch the last 250 videos I've published to YouTube, or you could hire me for an hour and ask me the specific questions you want and not have to dig through all of the boneyard of it and piecemeal things together. See, one thing I learned a long time ago, especially as a coach, is people are never paying for an hour of my time. People are paying for 1 hour of access to all of the stuff that's up in my head from all of my years of experience on walking this earth. And so putting that content out, sure, they're going to nibble on bits and pieces, but it's— and sometimes what I've learned is that many people, you give them this stuff for free and they don't value it. But the other thing that I've learned is that so many people they'll hire you. And when they pay you money, all of a sudden they've got skin in the game and they start taking the words that you share more seriously. They want to get a bigger return on that investment that they've placed. So there's so many reasons why I never worry about giving things away for free. Now, the reason why I say that I'm glad you just recently asked me this question, because I had a friend of mine who gave me some marketing advice when it was came to Marketing Free the Dream. I was at a place where, gosh, I was on a 2.5-month run of actually publishing a vlog, a video to my YouTube channel every single day without fail.

Oh, wow.

And I was loving it. And I mean, I'm pouring my heart out. Some of these episodes are like 7 to 12 minutes. Some of them were like 37 minutes to an hour in length. But I mean, it was just like I'd get out of the gym and I had just listened to Tony Robbins for 2.5 hours. And I'm like, let me tell you what I learned today. This is so amazing. And here's a story to go along with it. And it's just incredible content, if I do say so myself. And I'm like, this is awesome. And I, so I sit there, I said to my friend, I said, I'm getting ready to market my next level, or the Free the Dream conference. And he's like, yeah, he goes, here's the thing, I want you to email your list every single day. I'm like, okay, I'm willing to do that. Even though that sounds like very—

It's a lot.

It seems like a lot. And I said, but I trust your advice and I'm willing to do it. He goes, but here's the thing, you need to change how you share your content. And I'm like, okay, I'm listening. He goes, the problem that I see is that you're telling people what the problem is and you're telling them the, you know, what they need to solve the problem, but you're also telling them how to use that tool to solve the problem. The problem is you're giving it all away for free.

Mm-hmm.

So here's what I want you to do. I want you to change the way you're creating your content. I want you to tell people what the problem is and then tell them what they need to do to solve the problem. And then you need to say, and if you come to Free the Dream, I'll teach you how.

Right.

Cheryl, I gotta tell you, I took that advice and I went from publishing a vlog every single day without fail for like 2 and a half months, and I got to the place where I was publishing a vlog maybe 1 or 2 a week. Because that's not who I am. That's not who I am. I'm not the guy who is going to give you what you— you tell you what the problem is, tell you what you need, and say, now if you give me money and come to my event, I'll tell you how to do this.

Right.

That is— that's out of integrity with who I am. I'm not saying that that's it, that if you do this, that you don't have integrity or that you don't— you're not a person of character. I'm just saying it's out of integrity with my values, with who I am and how I've always done things. And the interesting thing is, is I took that approach and I noticed that my marketing, like, it was so much less effective. And at the conference, I said, hey guys, I want to teach you some things that I learned. I want to tell you about my belief system, about my beliefs about marketing this event, my beliefs about creating content, and you know, how I tried to shift things. And I said, here's what I want to know. Out of everyone here, how many of you made the decision to come to this event because you have been following me for however long? And you said, I know that Cliff Ravenscraft is worth spending $1,000 to $2,000 to come to this event because he's never failed to give me valuable advice without holding anything back. Right. Every, every person in the audience raised their hand.

Yeah.

And I said, now how many people are here because you heard me give you a piece of content and I told you what you need but I told you if you come to the event, I'll teach you how to do it. Not a single person raised their hand.

That is so interesting because from a marketing perspective, Cliff, I mean, again, that sounds like it was like a marketer who told you that, but from a marketing perspective, you often hear that, you know, it's like, tell them, how does it go? Give them what they want. No, yeah, give them what they want and then give them what they need once they get there.

Yeah, that's another one.

Kind of along those lines. But what you're saying is that, again, back to integrity, it was out of integrity for you to kind of hold that back in your content. So really, what you're, what you're doing is staying along the lines of giving, giving, giving, being, taking that service-minded approach and not being afraid to kind of give it all away. And that it's, it's basically a trust, right? It's a trust in that you trust that God, whatever you, you know, I think you and I both believe in God, okay? So, you know, so God will, that abundance will come back to you in spades down the line. You have to trust the process. You have to trust that if you're giving that much, it's all going to work out. The universe is going to take care of it.

And the thing is, is if I think about the people that I am most attracted to, like the teachers, the coaches, the mentors, These are people who quite frankly have added so much value to my life through their free content or their very low-cost book or whatever the case may be. And in many cases, I purchased the book, but since I've met these people, they've given me like 10 copies to give away to other people. I mean, these are the, these are the people who are most— I'm magnetically attracted to these individuals. And it's— and I don't know how on earth I lost sight of the theory of reciprocity because I've understood the value and the, the under the, the importance of reciprocity in the earliest part of my business. And for whatever reason, over the last 6 months, I just like, I tossed reciprocity out the window. And reciprocity, for those that don't know, is that whatever you give, you're going, you, you're not, you're going to get back, but you're not going to get back the same amount that you gave. You're going to get back you know, multiples over. It's kind of like if you think about this, two kids on a playground at school, and this guy comes up and he's a bully, and he goes and he punches one of the kids on the playground. That kid that just got punched, guess what he wants to do? He wants to punch the bully back. Now, whether or not he has the courage or the confidence to do it or the strength or whatever, I don't know, but the desire is there. The desire is to punch back, but I guarantee you, I promise you, if this person is honest, they do not want to punch the bully just as hard as the bully punched them. They always want to punch back harder. That's reciprocity. But it goes the other way. Have you ever known somebody who's given you a gift? It's not your birthday, it's not some kind of celebration, but all of a sudden this friend of yours just out of nowhere gives you this lavish gift and you're like, seriously? And then all of a sudden, what do you want to do? You want to return, but you don't want to go and find— it's like, I wonder exactly how much this thing costs because I'm going to go find something of equal value. No, you want to give more.

It's—

this is our human nature. And how I lost sight of that In the marketing of Free the Dream, I have no idea.

Well, and I think, I mean, I think we have to give ourselves a little bit of, I don't know, leeway, if you will, for lack of a better word. But I think because we're inundated with marketing messages and with marketing tactics and strategies, and we hear all about these marketing this and that and the other, sometimes I think we get caught up in all of that. You know, we get caught up in trying to find the perfect way to market. But really, the perfect way to market for you is by staying in integrity with yourself. The perfect way to market for me is by staying in integrity with myself and following my gut, my heart, and my head, and trusting that if it's feeling good, if it feels good to give, then that's what I ought to do.

I should do more of it. Yeah, and that's for me, that's what I, I'm back, you know, it's like, listen, I just, you know what, I almost, I can't wait to create my next series of vlog episodes where I'm literally going to teach the same content that I just taught at this event. And I mean, and I don't, I know for a fact that's not going to keep people from coming next year because there are other benefits beyond just hearing and receiving this content. The fact that you're not distracted by the fact that you're driving to work and the fact that I mean, there's so many other added values of the environment that I create at the actual event or the conference that I'm hosting. But here's what I know is that I cannot allow myself to know the strategies and the techniques for changing our beliefs about who we are and what we're able to do in this world and only hold that to a small number of people who pay me money. That's not an— that's not why I was given this message., and I just know it needs to get out to a larger audience. And so I want to give it away. And I know because of what I've learned about the theory of reciprocity, that that is going to magnetically attract people. They're going to say, you know what, Cliff Ravenscraft is a guy I know I can trust because he's— I've applied what he's taught me. And the interesting thing, Sheryl, is over the years, I've had— when I was doing Podcasting A to Z, my 4-week training program for teaching people how to podcast, I had people who actually signed up for my $2,000 course who already had a podcast and they said, Cliff, I thank you for this opportunity to finally give back because I felt guilty over all these years of all the free stuff I've siphoned from you. And it's just like, this is such a relief off my shoulders. I finally got rid of the guilt of how much I owe you.

Right.

It's like, so yeah, so to answer your question, I don't think we could ever give too much.

I love that. I think it's a perfect segue to talk about video because you just mentioned about vlogging, and I want to know what kind of impact— I mean, you started off obviously in my podcasting. I don't know how many podcasts and how many episodes you've done.

Over 3,000. 3,700 podcast episodes.

Wow, it's amazing. But video, I want to know what kind of impact you believe video has had on your audience building, marketing, your business in general. Tell me about the impact that adding video has had to building the Cliff Ravenscraft brand.

Well, video has been a key component for me as long as podcasting has. I mean, I was looking for plugins back when Facebook first got started. There was a plugin that you could do to do Facebook video, and I— I was using YouTube. I actually created my YouTube channel before Google purchased YouTube. So I have, I have just over 1,000 videos. The only thing is, is I got to tell you that video has been something. It's a good thing that I'm, I've always been a very transparent and authentic person. You go back to that, right?

Yeah.

If anybody wants to, you can go to youtube.com/cliffEOTC or youtube.com/cliffravenscraft. It'll all take you to the same place. YouTube and click on my vlog playlist, but then go all the way to the bottom of the list because you will see this 272— I mean, like the pudgiest face. And it's like, I remember there's a vlog episode where I give a career update. I was in a 90-day period of time. I was halfway through my final 90 days as an insurance agent. I had bronchitis. I couldn't breathe. I looked sick. I looked like I was about ready to die. Die. And here I am telling the world, I'm so excited, I'm getting ready to launch this, but I'm scared to death and all this other stuff. And I gotta tell you, I wish I would have done more video in the earlier days. I did plenty, but I did it in spite of my lack of confidence in my physical appearance. And you know, the thing is, is I mean, today, physically, I'm a different person altogether today than I was 10 years ago. I say that a second time now, but physically, I've lost over 100 pounds of body fat in the last 3 and a half years. And I gotta tell you, I'm totally fine with the camera now. I still have crooked teeth, by the way. Anybody that— and I feel myself, this is crazy, I feel myself in 1080p, 60 frames per second, with the camera about this far away from me. And I've got the most crooked, discolored teeth you could possibly imagine. Who the heck am I? But you know what? I do it because I'm just me. I'm, I'm not perfect. I, I never claim to be perfect. All I claim to be is somebody who is learning and growing from every experience in life. And everything that I'm learning, I think, is of value for me to share with you. And so if you can put up with my my crazy crooked teeth, discolored teeth, and all this other stuff. I mean, here I— I mean, you asked me, this wasn't supposed to— I didn't know that this was going to be video. Here I'm in a t-shirt and I didn't shave today. I don't care. My hope is that you've gotten over that within the first few minutes, and when you hear my voice and my passion and zeal for the things that are on my heart to share, that that just overwhelms. So video has been a key component for me. And what I love about video is it helps me reach an audience that I will never reach with audio. So there are people that spend hours and hours watching YouTube content, and they have never listened to a single podcast episode. And so every video I put out is somebody that I am reaching that I would have never reached otherwise had I not created the video.

And you know what, Cliff, so many people I think can relate to what you just described, right? If we don't, we don't feel necessarily perfect in our appearance, do it anyway. Find the courage and understand that it's not about you. It's about sharing your message. It's about the other people. I think so often the reason why people are held back from wanting to do video is because they think it's about them.

Yes, it is. If they're afraid, it is.

About that. That's right. Yeah. If that fear is what's holding you back, then it is— you're, you're making it about you, and you have to really turn that on its head and say, it's not about me. I'm a messenger. I am the conduit. I am the catalyst. I am not— I am not it. It's all about the message. It's about sharing it. So I think a lot of people will resonate with that, and I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people going back to your YouTube vlog playlist and going back to the bottom. So I really appreciate your time today, Cliff. Honestly, this is a real pleasure for me because you have helped me through your content over the years so much. And I wanted to say thank you. You're an inspiration. Can you tell people about some of the programs that you have? I know you have Free the Dream, you're going to be making that an annual conference, but you also do live workshops as well, correct?

I do. So I have 3 main products that I focus on these days. My Free the Dream annual conference is for people who really need help with their belief system to You want different results in life. And by the way, it's not just for entrepreneurs, although there— I draw a huge entrepreneurial crowd. But a couple husbands brought their spouses, and their spouses were like, what am I doing here? And all of a sudden, it's like one of them stood up and says, you know, man, I gotta tell you, I had no idea, and I, I'm just a stay-at-home mom. And then all of a sudden, somebody starts, you are not just a stay-at-home mom. And like people were breaking down in tears. It's like, oh my gosh, this is the first time I really understand that I have something to offer the world. And so this is, this is people who have belief systems. It doesn't matter who you are. If you are not getting the results you feel called to have in life, Free the Dream is the conference. So that's what that is. Then I have, I'm going to show you on video here. So this is—

I love your studio, by the way. I mean, you know what, Cliff, I just want to say, as just a little aside, From a technological standpoint, you are a man after my own heart because I am totally, I will order stuff on Amazon just to play with it. And like, I am become a total technology hound.

I love it. Yeah. So, so I, we built this home with the idea that I wanted to teach live workshops for small groups of people. And so I have this thing, it's called, we call it the Next Level Workshop. And the one that I've been doing the most recently is called Creating an Online Business. And so for over a decade, I helped people launch podcasts successfully, over 30,000 people. And the biggest problem that I saw is so many of them, the reason why they wanted to create a podcast is so that they could build a business, so that they could leave their day job. And the problem was is that they were all starting with step 8 in 11-step formula.

Right.

So there are 11 steps that I've learned. I created an 11-step formula for building a profitable and successful online business. Step number 8 is create content. By the way, if anybody wants it, I have— get this, you could, you could come and spend the $2,000 to be in the workshop, or you could listen to the 11 steps for free at mindsetanswerman.com/formula. Mindsetanswerman.com/formula. You get all the steps for free.

Nice.

So, I, because I give it all away for free. But anyway, what I realized is people were Step number 8 is create content, which is your podcast, your website, your newsletter, your blog, all of that. That's your, your YouTube channel. That's step 8. If you are creating content and you're not making at least $5,000 to $6,000 to $10,000 a month, you have missed some vital steps. And that's what I teach people in the workshops. And then I have, um, for people who are successfully, uh, working towards building the lifestyle of their dreams with their own self-employed business I created a weekly mastermind group and it's $1,000 a month for members, but it's people who are heavily invested in living the life of their dreams. And it's the most amazing community of people who are sharing success. A mastermind group, for anybody that doesn't know, it is a small group of people where every single member of that group is committed to meeting consistently and every member is committed to the success of every other member of the group. That's— so those are the 3 things that I've got going on, and they're all available. You can get to all of them at cliffravenscraft.com.

Thank you so much, Cliff. Honestly, this has been a pleasure for me. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule from your home studio and from your home offices to share these really important tips with us today. Stay in integrity, don't get ahead of yourself, give, give, give, be a service-minded person, and you will you succeed. Thank you so much, Cliff. I really appreciate your time.

Thank you, Cheryl.