A Conversation with Jay Buchsbaum

The following is a conversation with my friend and drinking buddy, Jay Buchsbaum. Jay is Vice President of Marketing and Director of Consumer Education for Royal Wine Corporation, and is truly one of the top experts on kosher wine across the globe. I hope you enjoy. So, first of all, hey, welcome to Jerusalem, Jay.

Thank you very much.

It is really a pleasure to have you here.

Is this the inaugural podcast?

It is actually, it is probably going to be podcast number 2. Okay, because the first one's going to be explaining about what I'm trying to do here, um, but it's, it's definitely one of the first, so I wanted to say thank you.

Very excited.

Thank you for being here. Very cool. How in the world did you get started in wine?

Uh, I was one of the guys in the first graduating class of Toro College.

Cool.

In those days, just to give you a perspective of how old I am, New York City was going out of business. And before I graduated college, I got an offer to work for the City of New York in the Housing Authority as an auditor, a fiscal records analyst.

Very cool.

Was just a, just a low-level paper auditor. Anyway, I had that job for 2 years, which I hated because knowing me, yeah, you know, sitting in one place, people person.

Yeah, you're a people person, not a paper person.

And someone offered me a job working for a small winery who was then in the Lower East Side called Shapiro Wine.

Wow, I remember Shapiro. That's right.

His, his theme was, 'So thick you could cut it with a knife.' Yep, yep. Imagine trying to say that today about a bad wine, kosher good wine. Oh my gosh. Anyway, so I—

but the, uh, I remember the big barrel. It was— you went in and there's a huge barrel. Yeah, Lower East Side.

Yes, it was amazing. Rivington Street.

Yep, I remember I was there. I visited there as a— I visited there as a teenager. Yeah.

And, um, the guy who hired me— long story short— but a guy who hired me was a fellow by the name of Harry Maris, who was not Jewish but an ex-Gallow guy. Taught me a lot. And then I went from there to a non-kosher company, and then from there to a company called Jacobazzi.

Okay. Okay, sounds like a real kosher company.

Oh, let me tell you. Yeah, it was in those days, it was the, if you will, the Bartonur of its time. Okay, 2 million or 3 million cases.

Wow.

One of— I think it was the second biggest imported wine in America. And then all those years though, David Herzog would say to me, because I only drank kosher even though I sold non-kosher. Yeah, David Herzog would say to me, Jay, why don't you come and, and help us, you know, build our wine business. And one day I did, and I've been there 34 years. And that's the short story. If you have an hour, I can give you the longer version.

So in our few years together that we've been, uh, actually going around, the main, the main thing I wanted to talk to you about was the changing in tastes of people, of consumers. Because I have noticed something, and I have noticed specifically that your role, especially with Herzog, is not just to facilitate wines or to speak to people about wines, and not only do you speak to winemakers in Israel, you do not just talk about their distribution in America. You actually make suggestions about their marketing goals and what have you. And in doing so, I remember, um, you making some pretty strong statements about certain varietals. And I just, I wanted to get a feel for you if you can like kind of take us through the last 20 years or so of, um, the varietals that have been on the market kosher wines and where they're going and where you think they're going now and what your observations are.

My observation is, first of all, um, this is a marketing saying that I have: a wine isn't sold until it's, uh, to really clean it up, until it's flushed down the toilet. What that means is, is that, you know, we can come up with a great package and with a great concept and with great varieties, but unless the consumer actually warms to it, buys it, drinks it, and then comes back for it a second time— yeah, that's, that's really— our customer is the ultimate consumer. So my, my message to all of these guys is, what— let's address consumers' needs. Now, having said that, what I find so exciting is that consumers, wine consumers especially, are always looking for something better, something newer, something fresher, something more tasty, something more complex, something more interesting. And those are some of the things and reasons that I share with, with these producers. So for example, um, One of the, one of my soapboxes, as you know, is white wines.

Yep.

All right. And what's interesting about that is, is that consumers love red wines. Oh no, no, just give me your best red.

You know, I actually want to go to that for a second before you start with white.

Sure.

And actually, it's interesting because it used to be cabs. Everything was about cabs. And maybe, maybe somebody would reach for a Merlot. But it was always about cabs. What's your cab? I want a cab. I want something that's real fruit-forward, a real cab, what have you.

Opulent. Yes.

And I remember the difficulty in actually even trying to market Syrah. It was just like you could make a great Syrah and it would sit on a shelf and people would never ask for it. And if you pushed for it, pushed it, "Eh, you know, whatever. But I really want a real wine. I want a Cab." And now the market has, I guess because of the whatever, whether there is climate warming or not, there is definitely a move across all of the wineries and winemakers towards what they call now more Mediterranean blends, more Mediterranean-style blends. And is that, you know, is— are you seeing that? Is it—

you hit it right on the head. The, uh, especially with Syrah. Syrah in Israel seems to be doing fantastically well in the vineyard, and therefore in the bottle, and therefore in the mouth. And more and more I see Syrah, even when they call it Cabernet, which is— which by law has to be over 85% of one variety in America. They, they're often adding Syrah just to kick up the flavors, and it really does. It really does.

So spices it up.

But also, Syrah is a Mediterranean origin— originates in the Mediterranean basin, uh, in Europe. So Here it really does well, and you're right. And I have to tell you, there are blends that are mostly Merlot, but if you called it Merlot, you're right, it wouldn't sell. But if you put it into a blend, it sells better. One example of a fantastic wine that's so consistent over the years is Castel. You know, he's got Cabernet Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot. He's got a —what we call a classic Bordeaux blend. But you're right.

Yeah, now with—

guys like Jesse Green—

Raziel. No, but now with Raziel— Right. He's doing Syrah. They're going to the Mediterranean blends. It's a nice way of showing— of seeing whether or not there's a customer base for it. And he's got this whole sidetrack that's going, you know, Mediterranean blend. Flam is also doing a very similar thing with its white label. It's a Mediterranean blend. They won't even tell you what's in the wine on the outside. And it's specifically so that they can start experimenting and seeing whether the people like it. And they seem, you know, the customer base seems to like it and is moving it forward. It's kind of fun.

Again, what I love about the kosher consumer And, and my father used to say this about, uh, you know, when, you know, why do— in the '50s and '60s, why do certain, um, minorities buy Cadillacs? You know why? Because they, they're not invited to all these fancy places. So if they have money, they're buying fancy cars and fancy watches, okay? And the same, I see this a lot with the ultra-religious community. You know, they're not going to Broadway shows, they're not going on fancy beach vacations. And then so what do they do instead? They're buying great wines, great whiskeys, nice cigars sometimes, beautiful, you know, cars and, and, and cigars, etc. And they're really focusing So many are focusing on, you know, really excellent wines, building cellars, and, uh, and I'm talking about age-worthy cellars. Yeah. Also, what you notice is, as much as people, you know, say, no, no, I don't want the Merlot, I want the Cabernet, if you take a look at the same community, they have no problem with great Bordeaux. Why? I mean, Bordeaux aren't Cabernets. Some of them have Cabernet, and some of them in fact emphasize Cabernet, but certainly, you know, in the Left Bank it's all Merlot. Yeah. Okay, so— oh, not all Merlot, but it's predominantly Merlot. Yet nobody has a problem with it. Why? Because the flavors are notched up in all of those. The French are very smart that way. The wines are named after the terroir. They're not named after the variety. Yeah, and that's because what grows in that terroir best is what's most important. So it's a Bordeaux, it's a Burgundy, it's a, you know, it's a Châteauneuf-du-Pape, it's, uh, whatever. And, and, and it— those wines express the taste of the place, as Alice Louboutin would, would have me say about terroir. I have an experience that I love sharing with people. There are about, I don't know, 5 or 6 wines that I can usually, not always, but usually identify blind in the portfolio that I represent and others do. And those, for example, one of them is Goose Bay Sauvignon Blanc. And, but this goes to your point, Simon, why can I identify Goose Bay Sauvignon Blanc? Well, there's 2 reasons. Number 1, it's absolutely consistent from vintage to vintage. There might be nuances that are different, you know, the lemoniness is a little bit more muted or a little bit higher, but the basic flavor profile of that wine, which consistently comes from exactly the same vineyards in exactly the same place at exactly, well, not exactly, but pretty much the same harvest time, that's what I'm tasting. I'm tasting the place it's coming from. Baron Herzog Chenin Blanc is another example. There's also one, yeah. It comes from exactly the same vineyard. It's consistently, you know, harvested at, you know, a certain brick level, certain sugar, yeah, sugar level, compound level, etc. Alexander Valley Cabernet, another example of that. Um, Castel's Castel Gran Vin is another example of that. Castel's C is another example of that. Flom's, um, um, uh, what do you call it, their middle, their entry red Classico, Classico is another example of that. So, uh, you know, I won't, I won't get it 100% of the time, but I've seen you do some miraculous things.

There was one, there was one that you pulled and it just, it, you, people were falling out of their chairs because they, they put that bottle into the mix just to kind of fool with you and mess with you. And when you pulled it out and you pulled out not only the winery, the actual varietal, and the vintage, people turned around and said, "Whoa." That was—

I don't know if I was just stupid lucky or what.

No, I thought it was quite remarkable. Well, you know, you have—

Um, there are wineries— I'll give you an example of one here in Israel, uh, that have a style of winemaking, and that's Alexander. Yeah. Okay, Alexander's style of winemaking is extraction. Yeah, very extracted, really extracted wines, heavily, uh, spent on, um, on the skins and with the lees. Uh, so you have this real big opulence, this real big flavor bombs that come through. So, and I, I had, I had, in that case, I had tasted, I don't know, some weeks ago, his, this guy's wine. And I, it was very clear that he had a certain, certain mahalich, if you will, of how to make his wine. And it was just all there. And so I've been— it's kind of like, you know, my son Sfi always says you become an expert after 10,000 hours, you know, of doing one thing or, you know, doing this.

I don't even want to ask how many hours you've been doing this.

So, so eventually, you know, if you, if you do it enough, your palate becomes trained. I think there was a— there was some luck involved in that too. So I was very— that was really I was— that was pretty crazy.

You know, one of the things that has always impressed me about you, honestly, is that you have a palate that you've developed over many, many years, and you have a palate for some incredible wines, but you're not a snob. No. And you'll taste wines and you taste for the good that's in the wine that you're tasting at the moment. I know that goes— it should be with most marketing people who especially are in the wine business. It really isn't. Truthfully, it's been a— it's a pleasure to watch you go through that and to pick out the interesting and subtle tastes that are in wines that wouldn't have been your first choice to drink. And it's cool. It's cool to watch. And it's something that everybody needs to appreciate. Wine a little bit more.

I have a philosophy, a very simple philosophy, when I'm talking to consumers. And, and for me, everyone, anyone who would drink wine is my audience, you know. But I— and by the way, there are a few, um, I'm not— I don't consider myself a critic, but there are a few critics that agree with me, and that, that's very simple. People want to hear what they should buy and why, not what they shouldn't. Yeah. Um, you know, it's true they want to know what to avoid, but rather than give them information as to what to avoid, I'd rather give them information as to what they should experience.

What's a new experience that you could get from it?

What's it— yeah, you know, so even though— so for example, even though they want to hear about Cabernet Cabernet I want to tell them about something new and fresh and different in Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc or Semillon or whatever, or Chenin.

So let's talk about whites. Okay. I'm sorry, because I know you love whites, and, and I'll tell you, um, there's a couple of whites that have really kind of blown me away over time. Um, one was the Sancerre from 2012. There was this kosher sancerre that was— and not that I drink anything but kosher, but that sancerre was mind-blowing to me. All of a sudden it had things like kumquats and all of these oriental fruits that were just really, really crazy and really, really good. Really wonderful and a lot of fun. Um, and it just opened my eyes. Uh, but that was, and you know, a white that was just out there, just really super.

Very simple philosophy on whites. First of all, I like whites, but it's— there's a much more simple message to, to send to everybody, and that is that, you know, the orthodox consumer is used to Shabbos meals, so they need the wine with their Shabbos meals. And what's with your Shabbos meal? A big heavy roast, a big fat cholent, you know, all this, you know, good deli, all that good stuff, you know. Um, even the chickens ordinarily are, you know, not ordinarily but often are deep fried or very flavorful, etc. So for those, you know, red wines make sense. But even, even in those you can enjoy white wines. But what are you gonna have with your pasta on Tuesday night, or your pizza on Wednesday night, or your, you know, your fried fish on Thursday night? Okay. Yeah. And the answer is that you need to have something that's compatible, and most often that's a really great white wine. So, you know, even though we're trained to think about wine only for Shabbos, Get out of that comfort zone, guys. Have— enjoy a nice rosé or a Chenin Blanc or Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc. And it doesn't take away anything from, you know, all those times that you need that big rich, rich, you know, or complex red to go with your, your red meat or your red meal wines.

Also, it gets hot. You know, it is hot during the summer here in Jerusalem. It is even, you know, it gets very hot during the summer in Israel, and having a nice light white is just awesome. People thought of whites as being only sweets, sweet wines. I mean, Moscato is a wonderful wine. It is something that really impressed me, to be quite honest. I went to the winery, It's huge. They make so much wine there. And, you know, people think that it's just like, "Oh, they just mix sugar and water and what have you." No, that's— it's real wine. They're making real wine with an incredibly consistent flavor, following all of the kosher laws and regulations.

Actually, the making of Moscato is quite complicated. And that's because unlike other still wines, yeah, Moscato has a fizz to it that is not CO2, right? I mean, it's not CO2 injected, I should say. It is CO2, but it's not CO2 injected. This stuff is naturally fermented carbon dioxide, which is yet another step and a complicated one, because if you do it wrong, your, your CO2 will be too high and your bottles will explode. If you do it too low, if you do it wrong, it could be too low and you won't get that fresh bubbly fizz. It's a complicated wine to make, especially consistently the way they do, especially when you have year after year, different vintage after different vintage with different, you know, sun and rain and, and whatever. I mean, I, I'm quite impressed with how they're making that wine.

It comes from really one of the most beautiful areas of Italy. It's actually in Asti, up in the mountains. Some of those vineyards actually grow at 45 degrees. Wow. It's crazy. And Herzog has a tasting center there that is just absolutely beautiful. I mean, wow. If you wanted to have a simcha in some place, exotic, that is the place to do it. It's crazy. Yeah, you have to bring a caterer, but it's, it's really gorgeous. Um, so I was always impressed with Moscato. Um, obviously I prefer drier wines, and now even things like Gewürztraminer, um, that are normally— people normally would just drink them sweet, There are some lovely, wonderful dry gewürzes that are being made in Israel and made elsewhere. Yeah, Schragers. Schragers Gewürze is delicious. Is awesome. Absolutely awesome. In Gush Etzion Winery. Gush Etzion Winery. It is just great. So, what other— any whites that you have tasted lately that have, you know, that have really tickled your fancy?

Um, there's a wine that— yeah, it's a really expensive white, but worth— I think worth it. And very little of it came to the United States. It's a white from France, Malartic.

The Malartic. Malartic white. Yeah, it's awesome. It actually even came to Israel. Ridiculous. I know, it came to Israel as well.

I've got a bottle downstairs, like, and believe me, this is not my my normal go-to variety. My normal go-to variety are Sauvignon Blanc and Chardonnay, but this Semillon Sauvignon blend that is rich and complex and flavorful but still well structured, it's just— and age-worthy, you know. Otherwise, that I like are— and, and there's always a good occasion to drink them no matter what you're eating— are Champagnes. Yeah, champagnes. Wow. And, and one of my favorites, and not getting the— I mean, we're selling it out, but not getting the, the attention that it should— is the stuff that Matthy Joseph Herzog is making in California. It's not a champagne because it doesn't come from Champagne, France, but it's made in exactly the same fashion, uh, and it's 100% Chardonnay. He just made a rosé which is 100% Pinot Noir. But stuff is, you know, give it— you have to, you have to let it sit in the bottle for, you know, that's the biggest thing.

You really need to let some of these whites sit in bottles for, for, for months or even a year or so, and, and it, and it makes such a huge difference.

Yeah, that amount of oxidation. Yeah, even that small amount of oxidation gives it a nuance and a kick up flavor profile, more complexity that you don't get when it's first released.

If you drink it when it's first released, it tastes almost bland. There's almost no flavor to it. Well, I was talking specifically about the Herzog one. Oh, yeah, definitely. And I know people who tasted it at the very beginning, as soon as the bottles came out, they tasted it upon, you know, when the bottles were first released, and they were, they were Negative. They were totally nonplussed. I said, this is like drinking water, wonderful, you know. Okay, great. Now they're making this.

And told him, Monty, are you kidding me? And he said, Jay, wait, wait, and give it some time. Sure enough, wow, 6 months later, this stuff was the same bottle, same vintage, same 100%. It's just different. It was just unbelievable. Yeah. So, you know, we're trying to— he's trying to, you know, stagger the release date a little later though, in the future.

Well, so there is a big deal to try to get these wines out there so that you are, you know, people can see what you are working on and developing. I, when they first brought out bottles from, kosher bottles from Greco de Tuffo, I remember getting a couple of cases and opening a bottle. I opened it as soon as I got the case. I just wanted to try it. I had never tried this wine. Beautiful wine. And it was water. Oh really? It was absolutely like drinking water. And I said, who am I going to give this to now? Like, you know, which one of my kids? No, which one of my kids am I going to pawn this off on? Because it's like, it's like water. It is, there's nothing. And I left it in the cellar and I forgot about it. I totally forgot about it. And about a year and a half later, um, My son was going through the cellar while I was in Israel. He was going through my cellar in New Jersey. He said, "Can I take some of those bottles?" I said, "Yeah, enjoy, whatever you want." He called me back in Israel and he said, "Abba, that Greco de Tuffo, that is unbelievable. It is so special." I said, 'What? What are you talking about?' Okay. And I took a bottle when I got back to New Jersey about 4 or 5 weeks later, and I opened it up and I said, 'How many bottles did you take? Wait a second, I'm not giving these bottles away. This is awesome.' And it was just the first time I saw wine that just really so developed.

You know, it's so interesting. Everybody understands that, when it comes to reds. Yeah, especially Bordeaux. Yeah, it's too young, don't even try to open it yet. Nobody has a problem with that.

But when it comes to whites, everybody's just drinking as fast as you get it. You have to drink it.

You need to know that, you know, whites also need time. Maybe not, not all 10 years. And not all whites, by the way. I don't think that Goose Bay Sauvignon Blanc, for example, needs time. Yeah, I like it when I first get it. Of course They released it— I think they wait, you know, to the proper time, but I think it's best fresh. But, but you definitely need to consider whether a white that you're drinking needs a little bit more time.

That Malartic, I, I have bottles sitting, but Sauvignon Blanc is also something that is, um, has a tendency to need to bottle age for a while before it becomes acceptable to drink.

Some of that apple burnt apple or, you know, cooked apple stuff to come out. I think that malartý could be, I don't know, 10, 12, even 20-year aging possible.

It's awesome. You know, I— Yakovoria, who's one of my favorite winemakers, and it's a challenge because a lot of people don't like his orange wines because they are They are a challenge to most people's taste buds. I happen to love them, but I have some of his bottles of 2009 Samillon. Really? And they are— this is 2009, okay? Those bottles are so fresh. Really? They're awesome. They're absolutely crazy fresh. I gotta— if you haven't tasted that, We gotta take up a bottle and taste that.

It's— I have to tell you, when you talk about— you mentioned that people, you know, have a challenge with their orange, you know, orange wine taste. I often give this as an example. When I was a kid, all of us, first time we tasted mustard— yeah, oh gosh, mustard, this is terrible, right? But over time you develop I don't eat anything without, you know, that, that is mustard appropriate without mustard, okay, anymore. And I love the taste of mustard as a flavoring for whatever. So I think, and, and I'm talking to myself here because I'm not a big orange wine fan, but I need to develop that. I need to develop that. And, and I think people in general, look at the, look at the dry wine drinkers, they all started out with things like Moscato and Kiddush wine, etc. Yeah. And now they won't they will not gravitate to that at all.

So it is a development issue. I agree. It is kind of funny, the first time I tasted Yaakov's orange wines, I was very frank with him. I said, "This tastes awful." I have absolutely no desire to buy it or drink it or what have you. And he said, Simon, that is really because you are very familiar with wine. You have been drinking wine for a while. And I said, okay, so that means I know what is, you know, dreck, what is not good and what is good? He said, no, that is actually not it. Your mind categorizes and puts certain tastes and flavors into boxes. And this wine is not one that you have a box for. And you don't have to develop a box for it. I think if you do, you'll enjoy it and, and you'll find it really, uh, really wonderful in the future. But it's certainly difficult for people who really are connected to wines to enjoy. Now, if you go into, um, especially a restaurant that has spicy food, spicy flavors, fatty, spicy flavors, and you serve an orange wine with it to people who aren't normally wine drinkers, they love it. It's just absolutely delicious. And over time, it's kind of like I've gotten used to my color TV, the contrast being turned up, And that's exactly what this does. And all of a sudden, when you taste a regular white, it kind of tastes a little dulled as to why in the world doesn't it have that extra kick to it. So, it's interesting when you get used to orange wines. But I still love, like, the Gewürz, the dry Gewürz and what have you. They're still wonderful wines. Any other interesting things that you've come across recently?

There's a really— I, I didn't think they could do a good job of it, and when I tasted it, I was really floored. There's a really nice wine coming from Greece called Yamas.

Yeah, I haven't tasted it.

Delicious. Absolutely delicious. Crazy, you know, kicked my, kicked my, uh, wow factor, you know. Like, Greece, like, who would even want to bring that in, you know? Um, in fact, Greek wines in the non-kosher arena has been known for years to be really cheap, Retsina, which is a type of grape, uh, really not good wines. This one was excellent. Um, but I think, I think what you're going to see a lot of now is what's coming out of Israel, which is Dubouki, Marwawi, uh, and some of the ancient grapes Yeah, Macabeo is a white that is just really crazy.

I think that's Spanish.

I think that's more Spanish.

It is, but one of the reasons they call it Macabeo might very well be that it came originally from Israel. So, you know, it's like Chardonnay.

You know the story about that? Yeah, I know, but that's a myth that is probably not true.

I know, but it's— yeah, so what What is the story with Chardonnay?

Well, it is hard for me to say without using a Kodesh Baruch Hu's name. It refers to the gate of God, so to speak. If you divide the word up, "char ah do ne," you can understand how one could come to that. I actually heard that from a really wonderful guy and a very close friend who's a wonderful wine writer and, and a great promoter of Israeli and general wines, and that is Adam Montefiore.

I was going to say, it must be Adam.

I heard from Adam. Now that I'm here in Israel, I'm going to give him a call, hopefully, you know, before I leave.

Okay. Thank you for spending so much time with me. It's really a pleasure. It's really been—

you should do— if you'll ever have me back again, is get into the details of individual regions. So for example, we might want to do a podcast on just Bordeaux, or even on just Médocs. Yeah. Uh, and, or just Burgundies, or, you know, stuff like that. I think, I think that would be, uh, kind of fun and exciting. I would love— just your Dane Hills.

No, I would, I would love to. I would love to. I— one of the plans is to, um to speak to winemakers, winery owners as well, and also kind of movers and shakers within the business distribution and what have you. So I think you've had— well, you know what, I want to talk to you a little bit longer. Go ahead. Just a bit longer. Sure. One of the things is you're one of the pushers, I think, in the Israeli wine industry towards Mevushal Wines. It is not because of you, but it is because of the market. And you really feel strongly about the restaurant market in the US. And that market is really totally, totally Mevushal Wines because of the hashkachat in the United States. It is not the same in Israel. And the winemakers all know that the restaurant market in Israel is key to distribution here. It is just absolutely key. They did not feel that strongly about it in America, because it always took a back seat, because of the what you call, because of the hashkachot. But now that some of the mevushal wines, some of the wines, good wines have become mevushal, there, there's such exposure in restaurants, and it's been awesome. And I think in good part because of you. I mean, that's— you've been kind of pushing for that.

The, the subject of Mevushal is so fascinating and really deserves its own podcast, but I'll do a real quick— I'll do a real quick perspective on, on Mevushal. I sat literally 2 days ago with David Raca. David Raca is, and I say this with great affection, a complete nut job when it comes to wine. He's a crazy lover of wine and has— is so opinionated, okay? And we're sitting at— I'm not gonna get— I'm not gonna go through which wines. We're sitting tasting something like 30 wines. And some of them were mevushal. And he said, why don't they tell this winemaker to make the mevushal like Herzog does, you know? And the point that— the point that I'm trying to make with— because he didn't like that wine, okay? And it was mevushal. On the other hand, there was another wine that we tasted during that period, during that tasting, that was mevushal that was wonderful, and they gave in the '90s, whatever. So So the French are now making non-kosher wine with a process called flash détente, which is a mevushal process. That's still not kosher because they handle it to begin with before it gets to the machine, whatever. But there is a way to do mevushal correctly that according to many, not only doesn't hurt the wine, but actually brings out esters, aromas, aromatics.

And, uh, and you know, between us, between us tasting over the years—

talk about that.

I mean, yeah, no, I was going to— yeah, we— look, in the old days we used to taste wines and the people always said Mevushal wines can't age, you can't keep them, once it's Mevushal you got to drink it right away. It's, it's— to be quite honest, we've opened some really old Mevushal wines that have been wonderful. I don't know whether the Mevushal freezes them in place at that, at that wonderful stage, and they don't really age, meaning that they don't spoil, but they don't get better with age. I don't know if that's true or not, but truthfully, we've tasted some older Mevushal wines that have just been fabulous. And, and certainly totally against the idea that if you have a wine that's mevushal, it's dead, it won't— it, it, it, it's, it's going to spoil, you've got to drink it now. We've had exactly the opposite. And that some of the mevushals—

non-mevushals, excuse me— yeah, similar varieties, certainly same vintage, similar variety, not same winery.

But I think we tasted one that was both mevushal and non-mevushal. I think we tasted that. There's been some, and the mevushal was better, was certainly better, right?

You know, there are a lot of theories about that. I've spoken to Sheiky about it. Yeah, I spoke to Sheiky from Tepperberg.

Yeah, Sheiky Rauschenberg.

Yeah, who did a whole study on that at UC Davis. Yeah. And I spoke to, uh, um, uh, Joe Herleman, and may he have a recovery. He's going through some very difficult times right now.

I didn't know, physically. Wow.

Medically. There are a whole bunch of theories about that. Again, that is a whole other podcast.

Yes. I look forward. I look forward. Thank you very much for spending some time in Jerusalem with me. It is really a pleasure. Amazing. Okay. Take care. Take care. Shalom u'bracha.