A spirited conversation among Friends while savoring Israeli Wine...

Welcome to The Kosher Teruah. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. The following is a conversation among friends. Both Kenny Friedman and Eitan G arrived back in Israel last week. Kenny, a well-known wine writer and commentator with a broad depth of wine knowledge, especially involving historical details, not to mention an exceptional and well-trained wine palate. Eitan G is a globally known Jewish rapper of shlak rock fame with a taste for wine and an unlimited curiosity for nuances in wine tastes and winemaking details. We spent Shabbat together enjoying some exceptional Israeli wines and then sat down, motzei Shabbat, Shabbat evening, for an intimate conversation about Israeli wines, some personal Jerusalem observations, and fielding some questions from Eitan, all while sipping some splendid Vitkin 2015 Riesling. If you're commuting in your car, please focus on the road and enjoy. If you're home, please choose a delicious kosher Israeli wine, sit back, and listen in on this spirited and informative discussion among friends. So the first thing I want to say is welcome to the Kosher Terroir.

Thank you.

I've got a— it's a pleasure having you both here.

Yes, it is.

Yeah, it is. It's really kind of crazy.

I'd say more for us.

I believe so.

I don't know. I don't know about that. It's definitely for me.

Who's here?

Do we have Eitan G?

Always have Eitan G in the house.

Okay, so Eitan G is here. And we also have Kenny Friedman, which is like, uh, the sommelier's sommelier.

Wow, wow. I'm gonna get hats printed up tonight.

You should.

It's great to be here, and I love both of you, and I think this is above my pay grade to be on this. Personally, I doubt this makes the cut. Honestly, it's going to end up on the cutting room floor. But I love being with Eitan, who I've grown up with my whole life, and Simon, the legend himself.

Oh God, all right, here we go. So what are we going to talk about tonight? I think we should talk about wine.

We should, because I see in front of me 3 glasses of wine. Yes, of white wine.

Yes.

Why white? Why it got to be white?

Who's conducting this interview?

No, no, no, it's fine. It's a free-for-all. Yeah.

Why? Why? I love white wine. That's why.

And I've heard that all Shabbos.

Simon, I And I both love white wine.

Kenny was interested in having a little bit of wine.

This is an interesting wine.

And I said to him, "Hey, let's go find a wine downstairs." And he picked a Wittgen Riesling from 2015.

Wow.

Happens to be a—

Special.

An absolutely beautiful bottle, and it's delicious.

It's great.

Kenny, over Shabbos, you were talking about white wines and how you love white wines. Most people, I would say the market, I don't know, people buy red wines. Why is that? Can white wines be used for holy sacrifices in the Bais Hamikdash, those kinds of things?

Well, I can't answer that. I can't answer as to that, but I can answer the first part of that.

Go ahead.

Simon can handle the more ritual questions. I'll try, but go ahead. I think that people are— I think the main thing with the preponderance of red wine is that people are comfortable with what they know. People don't like feeling stupid when they walk into a liquor store or wine store. I don't mind.

I'm always stupid.

People like asking for cab. They know cab. They know they like cab, and they feel comfortable asking for that. People are, I think, are maybe afraid of white wine. It's something new for them. Do you agree with that? Something I think about sometimes. Is that— do you think there's a truth to that, Simon?

I think there's definitely a truth to it. People are comfortable with what they seem to know, and and I think they feel that they can't do too wrong, you know, picking a Cab.

Right. It's also, it answers the question as to why people generally drink Cab. I think, and a lot of people, you know, I had this conversation recently with some people about, oh, you know, the Jews love Cab so much. I'm like, I think everyone, when they don't know so much, you go into any wine store around the world, people veer to Cab because they know that. They're afraid of pronouncing things they can't pronounce, and Cab is something they know and are comfortable with. I think that's the case, and I think that's partly for white wine also. I just— what we were also speaking about today is that I think Israel really produces some beautiful white wines, and I think they're unheralded.

So to be clear, the white wines are made by the green grapes?

By— yeah, white grapes.

And the— like a Cabernet is made by the purple grapes?

Yeah, but it's more than that. If you take a purple grape and you squeeze the juice out of it, which is how you make white wine, and then ferment the juice without the skins or the seeds or what have you, you'll end up with a white wine.

Even with purple grapes. In most cases.

In most cases.

There are purple grapes.

There are red-fleshed grapes, but most of them are— think about it, even the red grapes we eat, table grapes, have white flesh for the most part.

Maybe.

Well, I'll take your word for it. But it's the skin that gives it the color primarily.

It's the skin that gives it the color. Gotcha. So if you take a grape, the way they make red wine is they actually crush the grapes and the skins together, and then they ferment that. And that exposure is what makes the wines red.

And then the white wines, they take off the skins.

They basically squeeze the grapes seperate the skins off totally, and they just ferment the juice.

Gotcha.

Now check this out. You see the color of that?

Yeah, but the audience can't.

And I'm asking you, and we're gonna explain to the audience what's going on there. What color is that?

Like urine?

It's a— well, you shouldn't describe wine.

Well, it's that color. The audience knows what urine looks like.

It's golden. We're drinking a 9-year-old Riesling, and this is a golden color.

What is a Riesling?

Riesling is a grape.

It's a type of grape.

Very good.

And it's a grape that ages really well too. Not— that's not true for all white wine, especially with some— with how some white wines are made. Riesling has a unique ability to age well, especially the good ones like this one. But you see how it's darker? That's an indication of age.

What year is that?

It's 9 years old.

It's 2015.

Okay, and I just— whoever's listening out there, this is really beautiful wine. Wish you were here with me.

I know, in Israel. So now my questions are thus: the white wines, for people, I would say, as an idiot savant, my question is, in general, I've heard white wines go pair better with fish and light foods. It's a lighter wine than a red wine, which often is heavier. Yes, that's, that's, that's normally So if I'm not having fish, I'm having steak, having chicken, why would I go with a white wine?

You asked me the question, I would answer because you drink what you like. I drink a wine that I love with any food. I don't generally cater to that idea so much, but there is something to it in the—

There definitely is, except let me tell you though, there's of white wines, there's certain white wines that are very light and refreshing and crisp.

Like a spritzer.

Yeah, it's not like a spritzer, but it's— there's certain wines like Chenin Blanc that are just extremely light. Okay. And those are ones that you'd eat, you know, you'd have with fish actually. Some of the fancier ones, some of the crazier ones, like some of Yakovoria's orange wines, have a certain amount of acid to them. So, the acid actually works with spicy foods really well. But in this instance, in this instance, almost lost a glass of wine there. In this instance, we have—

This was my glass.

—this is a fuller-bodied white wine. So it's not— this would really go well with a lot of different foods. It's not made for just fish or chicken light and what have you.

The general idea also is that if a very powerful wine will overpower the food, and very powerful food can overpower a wine. So that's like kind of the basis of that idea of pairing. Some wines aren't gonna work as well because they just don't— they'll be overpowered, or vice versa. What is pairing? What does that mean? It just means picking a wine that's gonna best reflect what you're eating, and vice versa. Or interact—

interact with it in a way that it will be pleasant to eat. Right.

So does that mean that when you're drinking a wine, it tastes— it could taste better with a certain type of food than another?

There's certain wines that really are not meant to be drunk without food. Okay, they're really meant to interact with food, and they're, you know, that's, that's the way you really need to, to drink those wines.

I like it.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Okay, I do think it's overplayed somewhat, because if you love a wine, drink it, you know.

What wines would not go well with— well, I don't even know what it means to go well with.

So I'm drinking— well, you're not gonna— like Simon was mentioning, Chenin Blanc. You're not gonna have a Chenin Blanc with a steak. It just doesn't make the That's a light wine with a heavy piece of—

So what doesn't taste good with that?

It's not tasting good, it's just about that they don't work well together.

Is it the wine that won't taste good?

It will absolutely, the wine can't stand up to the steak, basically. You want a heavier, like fuller-bodied type of wine. That's why the traditional heavy red wine, Cab, is great for a piece of fatty meat because the acid and the body and the tannins all can hold up to the heavy food. That's, that's that idea. Also, as you know, in addition to what Simon was saying about working well in tandem and complementing each other, which goes to what I was asking earlier about white wines and a light—

white wines are lighter, and therefore it would pair better with lighter foods. Yes, such as cheese or fish. Well, I mean, cheese is not necessarily light, but yeah, cheese is, uh, yeah, cheese is What would go well with a grilled cheese sandwich?

This is, this is not really my topic, by the way. I'm not like— this is— relax. This— yeah, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, like, getting really upset here. You know, Eitan G and I have, um, we've done a bunch of videos together, our own little thing which goes nowhere.

On what channel was it?

My own channel, which is what? Kosher Wine Tastings. Yeah, thanks for the plug. Yeah. And, uh, and we have a good And it goes on and on, and you have to— you can tune in and out. There are good parts, there are bad parts. A roller coaster, right? Yeah, I feel like we're on the down part right now.

I think we got Simon here, it's great. I think you're doing fine.

Actually, with the grilled cheese sandwich, this would go— that's—

yeah, that's a great idea.

This would go awesome with a grilled cheese sandwich. Absolutely crazy awesome with a grilled cheese sandwich.

There's a real viscosity and body to this.

Actually, you know what, here, Eitan, I'm not giving you to drink, I'm giving you to just taste. Yeah, okay, I'm in. Okay, so where's that? Do you see it? And here you can— here you go.

Okay, don't mind if I do. Yes.

Yeah, I'm gonna do the, the swirly thing.

Yeah, you can do this.

Well, yeah, well, smell it. It's a—

here I go, I'm gonna smell.

Tell me what you smell there. I mean, I'll— what do you smell? That was very graphic. It was quite graphic. Oh, there's a very interesting— smells like a very good wine.

There's an interesting—

it's a dry wine. It is, it's nice.

But I want you to try to smell for this. You're not ready.

Yeah, you ready for this?

Yeah. Petrol. Yeah, like Vaseline.

Smell it and taste it. Oh yeah, smell that. It tastes like petrol. It's got a very It's got a very—

that's a unique nose. Yeah, it's specific to older Rieslings.

It's a big Jewish nose. Yeah, you're doing just fine. It's very good.

You're right, it smells like—

yeah, you know when you spill gasoline on your hand? Yep. Yeah, there's that. And then you're in the car and you can't get it away for 2 hours while you're driving down the turnpike. That's— it tastes great though.

Yes, I love this. So think about this with a grilled cheese sandwich. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This would go great with a grilled cheese sandwich. Okay, that's what I was saying. Okay, I love a good grilled cheese.

I, I love—

I was just talking about this today, especially with a little mustard.

Oh yes, yes, a little grilled cheese mustard on the inside and garlic powder on the outside, right? You make the grilled cheese.

You know, there's a kitchen downstairs. We're not far away from this. We could do this in a heartbeat. But okay, maybe we'll do this after. This is great. Yes. But that's as far as culture is. But you know, I'm curious about something though. You're both here in Israel, in Jerusalem. So welcome, welcome home, guys. Great to be home. Yeah. And I just wanted to ask a question that I guess everybody's going to ask, is asking is, what are you doing here? What are you doing in Israel? I'll let you take the first.

We're not here together, you understand. Yeah, no. He's here. And I'm here.

We're always explaining that we're not together, right?

And yet somehow we're always together.

Um, I, I wish I was here always, honestly. I think this is—

that doesn't answer— this is where—

well, I'm working to that. All right, I'll get right to it. Yeah, relax. Why am I here? Here I am here, here because I love you.

Thank you.

I am in Yerushalayim, where is the— I, I woke up this morning in Yerushalayim and consider myself so lucky. My daughter is in seminary here. My second daughter, thank God, is in seminary and having a wonderful year. And my wife and I came to visit. That's why we're here. But, uh, there is a long-term plan, a short-term and long-term plan, and we'll see. But it's, uh, she came from anyone hiring a guy with useless talents. I'm looking.

Is there anything useless in this country?

No. I'm saying, but I have the talents of talking about wine. I can make food.

I can cook. You can go around to wineries and interview. Well, we'll see.

I always like to do this.

I think you're a pretty good find. Thank you. I think your wife is happy.

Thank you. Yeah, we love it. And it's so great to be here. And it's obviously a difficult time, a very special in a way time to be here because I think the country, there is a real feeling of brotherhood here, and I think that is special to see, especially for someone living in the Chutz to see that. We are one people, and it is a powerful time, and let us continue to pray for all our soldiers and all our people.

And all the hostages.

And all the hostages.

Please, God. Okay, Eitan.

Yeah, I'm here. Why are you here? If you remember, Simon, the last time I was here was the very beginning of the war, and the, the country had a different energy then than it does now. There's a lot more— back then there was unknowns. People were, you know, fear of the unknown. We don't know what's going to be. The war hadn't gotten into full effect yet. There was a different energy, but miracles were still happening. It was visible, easy to see. This trip, someone said— my wife said to me, dude, you got to go to Israel. And she had just gotten back from a trip. And I said, we're saving up to go for Pesach. And she said, don't worry about that, I'll pay for this trip. It's out of her own, you know, what do you call the— her slush fund. She, uh, She said go, and I did. I picked a date where a friend of mine had a wedding, and right around there I said for 2 weeks. And the minute the ticket was booked, someone texted me that there's another wedding and that there's a bris and that there's another— there's a bar mitzvah. One thing after another. So the 2 weeks that I had— oh, what am I going to do when I get there? And it got filled up before I even got on the plane. That's how these things happen. So I'm here for those things, for the good things. Yesterday, Thursday, I was in Netivot. I went to Be'eri, Kibbutz Be'eri. I got to witness firsthand the atrocities of our enemies, and it was— it's not the kind of thing that moves me. It angers me. It angers me. I'm angry. I don't like it. You know, you have, uh, you see the mortar shells and you ask questions. How could this happen? How could it happen? How could it happen? And there are no good answers. There's no one answer. And in the end, you know, here we are, we're fighting against evil, evil animals that, that want the destruction of the Jewish people. It's not a foreign, it's not a foreign concept to me. That people want to destroy the Jewish people. It's, it's been throughout history. Uh, we've been told it. I've been told it my whole life. My parents, my grandparents from the Holocaust, uh, getting beaten up in schools, you know, growing up, antisemitism. You're used to it. KKK, you know, all these things. Uh, and then you come see it firsthand is a different, is a different thing. You have a lot of kids these days that go with their schools to Poland and things like that. To— and I, I say to them, why are you—

March of the Living.

March of the Living. But many, many different times. And they go to where all the atrocities of the Holocaust happened. And I, I'm always bothered by it. Like, why are you giving money to Poland? Why are you even have to go there? You watch a video and use the money to go to Israel where we celebrate life and elevate life. And you're with the, the, the aftermath of all that destruction. You're here in Israel. And after I went to Barry on Thursday, I thought a little bit differently. I'm still of that perspective, but I said, I thought to myself that these kids didn't grow up the way I grew up, hearing from the grandparents that had come out of— they grew up in a nice cush environment. Maybe their parents are more affluent. We're the most affluent, the Jewish people, more affluent than we've ever been in the history of the world.

Well, people as a whole, I think, are more affluent.

In general, sure, but the Jewish people in particular, we, we can, you know, school, just everything. We have food. I, a meal at my house in 1976 was, you had a little meal. Now it's a whole smorgasbord and a spread and it's a whole thing. And for kids to go, I think kids do need to see where these things happen. There needs to be an emotional injection of history so you can see where these things happen. That's what Bari was for me. It was not that, oh, I'd never seen mortar shells, uh, go into houses before, or the ashes of burnt houses and, you know, that sort of thing, but rather it was a reminder. It was just to put— make it real, put it in perspective. You— the stories I heard, uh, the guy that took us around was a guy that lives there. Lived, lives, and he told us the story. Oh, in this house, you know, they tied up the people and they burnt them alive and they were only able to be identified by their teeth. Okay, it's not the first time I've heard such a thing, but the anger, the, and then you drive away and you're just, you're in a haze, in a headspace, and you see the fence between Gaza and Be'eri. That they were right next to each other and they were friends. And, you know, people wanted to have peace, they wanted to work together, they want to do that. But in the end, you know, Esav, son of Yaakov, Esav will always hate Yaakov. We've been in wars. The Torah, the stories of Amalek are going to come up soon. The Jews leaving Egypt, we read this parsha. Kenny left his shul mishpachah open when he got an aliyah, and in that aliyah Hashem says to Moshe to tell, uh, Pharaoh, listen, Pharaoh, let the people go, or I'm gonna do unbelievable wonders, and I'm gonna keep you alive so you could see those miracles and wonders, so you can witness it firsthand that I am the Lord God. Right there, he tells you straight out what's going to be. And, um, I would say that right now— and I was lying in bed last night, and I just think that now, today, is the time for God to step up his game. Yes, I'm sure there are all these little individual miracles, but I want Red Sea miracle level. I want something that just destroys every evil individual that was a part of, that speaks about, that continues the, the hatred and evil against the Jews, the individuals maybe in governments around the world that are crapping on the Jewish people for defending themselves. God should exact his revenge on all of them, and we should make a toast to the destruction of all the evil in the world. L'chaim.

L'chaim.

Wow, that took a turn.

Well, I wanted to get your opinion. The other thing I wanted to ask you, and on the streets here, you've only been here for a couple days. Couple days. But on the streets, do you notice a difference from the last time you were here?

I think very much so. Like I was touching on before, I think that, you know, listen, I don't live here. I'm living in America, and I've always, I think, been careful about lending my opinion to as to what Israel should do or what should happen here. I'm not Israeli, I'm an American. I have my own opinions, but we all know that what was happening here before, and there was a lot of, um, animosity within our own people. And, um, you, you see there's, you know, everywhere you go you see the Bring Them Home and you see the pictures of hostages and The first thing you see when you come into Ben-Gurion is they have, as you're walking down the famous, you know, where everyone takes the picture, "Welcome to Israel," and you see the hostages, which is what you should see because they should always be on our minds. And there's that feeling of, I think, togetherness is what I see, I think, among different types of people here, which is something I've noticed already in just a couple of days. I don't know if it's something— and listen, I'm also, you know, I'm picking things up in clips and videos and what we see in America. And when you see Ethiopian Jews that are soldiers and you see Hasidim that are soldiers, or even just dancing around soldiers and whatever, and you see that, that's what God wants. That's what God wants. You know, I'm not gonna judge why God does whatever he does. I'm not going to say that that's why that happened, but we know that when we're not together, bad things happen. And it's, it's, um, I think very powerful to see us coming together in a, in a time of tragedy, unfortunately, in difficult times. But it's noticeable on the streets.

Cool. I would call God out on all that because it's just ridiculous.

Well, you and God have a different relationship.

We definitely do. I'm sick and tired of all this. I should not have to wake up every day and see the names of dead soldiers. There should not be one dead soldier. That's just me.

That's just me, right? Yeah, we're hostage. I mean, one of the things that are— that's being pushed now is we're just at about 100 days, and, um, and it's like, it's 100 days that these people have been hostage, and our mindset is really an interesting mindset. We forget so quickly things. We really— our brains are made so that we forget terrible things. And that's actually a blessing that we have from God, where, you know, when you experience a terrible thing, after a fairly short period of time, it fades. And it's not actually terrible things, it's all things, so that even if you've had a good experience, that experience fades in your mind. It's something I picked up when I was much younger, and it bothered me a lot. I remember when my father died 15 years ago, I forgot his voice, and all of a sudden I heard his voice in something. About 9 months later. And I started to cry because it was only, you know, he'd been with me my whole life and all of a sudden I heard this voice and I go, you know, like, I just forgot the sound of that voice. So, we forget things. Again, it's supposed to help us, but it's, so what I do now is whenever I experience something that's really special, I point it out to myself and I say, "Suck it in. Remember everything that's going on. Remember the air you're breathing. Remember the smell in the air, the sights that you're seeing. Remember all of those things because there's going to be a time when you can't remember this experience again. And think of every little clue that's going to pull this experience back into your head." So, with the hostages, I think we all hear it, but it's really hard to keep that in your mind. I know we keep the soldiers because we see them coming home and going back. It's kind of a strange war. I don't think people outside of Israel grasp it. This is almost like a commuter war. There are people who go to the army, go into service, who are commuting less than most people commuting from New Jersey to Manhattan. Okay? You know, it's like crazy. You can get down to Gaza from here in less than your normal commute into Manhattan on a Monday morning, or you can get up to, all the way up to the, you know, to the Lebanese border. It's really close by. This is home for us. You know, we're fighting for home. This is not like sending people off to Southeast Asia or Iran or Afghanistan or what have you. So it's a different type of war and it's a different type of mentality. And people here, you know, when you see kids home with their guns, because when a soldier comes home for 48-hour leave, they have their gun with them. They're not allowed to put that gun down. They can't leave it at home and walk around. They have to have that gun with them all the time. And when you see, you know, a kid walking with his parents, it's a pretty moving— it's a pretty moving experience. And you see that a lot. You see that a lot here. Kids are getting home now from the army. And I'm calling them kids, they're young adults, men and women, carrying their weapons and coming home to see their families. And especially on Fridays and Shabbat, and actually even during the middle of the week, all of a sudden a soldier will get leave, and you see him walking with his gun and holding his kid's hand as he walks him to God. It's a special experience to watch. So we have in mind the soldiers. We certainly have to pray for them, for their safety. We really have to pray for the safety of these hostages, and we need to get them home, especially the young ones. I don't know how we're ever going to get them home, but I hope they come home, and I hope they come home in some sort of form that's reasonable and not totally damaged. So with God's help, that's something we're really pushing for. Amen. Amen. Yeah. So one of the things while you're here, I'd like you to try to do, because again, the war is impacting everybody. We brought it up the last time you were on the broadcast with me, Eitan. About buying kosher wine, buying Israeli wine at the moment. And it's an important thing. The wineries here are really suffering. They don't have the staffs that they had. And, you know, the staffs are all working. A lot of people are starting to filter back into the, into the world here, back into the economy here. Eviatar Cohen, actually, I heard he came back the middle of last week. So, he's actually going to be in the store, which is, you know— I'll look him up this week. People have been placing, you know, people have been calling, I've been calling him for suggestions, and he's been answering me from Gaza, you know, like, or wherever he is. It's like kind of crazy to call a guy and ask him for—

I need to stop in there and see him.

Yeah.

There's something— first of all, what you said was very powerful, and I felt that this morning when I was sitting in shul and I saw a couple— they are kids, let's be honest— and I see them sitting there with their guns, and I know they're home just for Shabbat. And I saw a young man sitting next to his father, and that was a very powerful moment for me. And I— because I was— I'm probably about the father's age, and I was thinking like, what is— what's going through his father's head? And, you know, his fears, but his pride of his son. And, uh, very powerful, very, very powerful. And that's an emotional thing, and it's a, it's a special thing. And I, again, just, yes, continue to, to look over our boys, um, and also, and girls. And, and, uh, and I, and I also like, it's, it's To get back to what you were saying before, and it's always at the top of our heads, but it's, you want to, when you talk to Israelis, they want you to, and you see Israelis are getting back to doing things that are joyful in life too. That we're not all sitting and mourning and that there is, that yes, open a bottle of Israeli wine. Yes, enjoy a bottle of Israeli wine. That's, we're not all here to just, life doesn't shut down. You know, we continue on, we do our best to cope, but yes, enjoy. And that's the feeling I get from when I speak to— because I have, I've reached out to many of the Israeli winemakers that I know, and they're like, you know, that's the way, and how can I help, and how do Americans help? Buy Israeli. Buy everything Israeli. My specific interest and my specific connection is through wine, so I promote that as much as I can, and it's not a hard thing to promote because there's great wine from— it really is spectacular.

We've had this Shabbat some remarkable wines. I mean, we've had some really interesting, remarkable—

wouldn't expect less being here.

Well, no, but it's, but it's, it's interesting.

We've had, uh, we really focused on Israeli wines, and they were kind of all over the place too in terms of, you know, what types of wines and vintages and Really, yeah. I mean, I would honestly, you can get me here anytime. You don't even need to serve wine, but I expect it and love it. And I love you.

Okay. So the feeling is very mutual. Thank you. We had, we actually had a remarkable white wine on Shabbat that was from Yakovoria. It was a 2009. Wow. Right. Yes. and it was just so fresh and crisp, and it was so beautiful in the glass. I mean, how old did that wine look?

I never would have guessed that that was a 15-year-old wine. Never.

15-year-old white wine. White wine. Which is like nuts.

That blew my mind. Yeah. It was very fresh, and really outstanding, and what a treat.

And then we also had Two of the new Tofa.

The new, new Tofas, right? The GSM. I like that GSM. And the Torsir. The Torsir. The tourister. The tourister, as Zeytan was calling it.

Yes, from the Tofa. That's Pierre's creation. Right. And that's, that was off the deep end. I thought so. We had a, what you call, we had a person who was with us. Tasting, Michael. Who lives in Paris. Who lives in Paris, and he's a big wine lover, and when we poured that and he drank it, he went, "Whoa!" His eyes lit up, he goes, "This is wine! I can drink this! This is good wine! I really like this a lot!" And we went crazy, Pierre would have been proud to hear that. And should be. He should be. It was—

those are great wines. They're unique, and they're— it's, um, he really has a special touch, Pierre, I think.

When wines are made like that, are— if you make a 2000, a wine that you're talking about, let's say, is every bottle consistent? Do they all taste the same?

It's a good question. So something I was going to bring up a little earlier is that I think also that every wine I drink in Simon's house is more special because wine is experiential. And a lot of times people are like, I had this great wine, and they think it was a great night, but the wine is made better by the experience and the people around you. So I know every wine—

it's definitely a people thing, right? If you sit home alone drinking even this bottle of wine, it wouldn't be the same as drinking it.

So I know everything I'm tasting here, I'm like, wow, this is amazing. It's better because I'm with great people, especially the Jacobs. I would include yourself. And, um, and, um, but, but wine changes and wine changes from year to year. Wine and two people could take the same wine, changes from year to year before it's made or after it's made in both ways. I'm saying a, you know, a crop may be different, weather, environment changes wine. Um, wine in a bottle changes from year to year, meaning once it's bottled, it'll change. Now, something most people don't realize with wine is that the vast majority of wines are not meant to age. They're meant to drink now. They will not get better, and they may get worse very soon. Special wines are meant to age and will improve and will change from year to year. But my point is that as something that why I kind of got interested in wine— thank you, Simon, just pouring me another spectacular glass of this Vitkin Riesling. Why I got into wine is I think there's something really unique in the stories behind wine. In the, you know, a bottle of Jack Daniel's is the same, and that's what they go for. They go for a very specific, you know, it's more corporate, right? It should taste the same as the bottle you bought 2 years ago. Correct. And it should taste the same 2 years later even, I think, right? Wine is very different in that regard. Wine is very organic.

Wait, but would you say the same Put Jack Daniel's aside because that's just a, a simple—

okay, bourbon. Okay. Or whatever it is, right?

Brown drink. But how about those fancier ones, the Glens or the—

I mean, I think they go for a certain style and they replicate that year after year after year. That's not the case with wine. It's almost impossible with wine because each vintage has its own— right, Simon?

Actually, to be honest, yeah. I know something about, um, whiskeys as well. Uh, one of the things coming up soon, the Whiskey Terroir with Simon Jekyll. Don't start, don't start. Um, but the— in, in whiskeys, there's styles over periods of time, okay? Initially, um, not initially, but say 30 years ago, whiskeys, the best whiskeys were the blended ones, okay? And the reason for the blending was to try to get consistency so that the whiskey you're drinking is the same whiskey that you bought, you know, last week, last year, last month, whatever.

As that— as kind of happens with champagne, with most champagne houses, where they blend and they blend different vintages and they try to make everything—

they try to make everything consistent, right? Okay. After a while, people didn't really like the consistency. They wanted something special. They wanted to get something special. So all of a sudden there was this outgrowth of single, uh, of single malts. And single malts are, are actually blends, to be quite honest, of a single malting. They're not, um, they're not just a single, a bottle that comes straight. So, but there people were looking for something more exciting, not the same. They, they really wanted to buy a bottle of something that had a special taste to it. So people went to these single malts whiskeys. But actually, the, the truth is that the ones that taste more consistent are the ones that are very difficult to make. And when you get wines The wines also, their blends, we're going back into a situation where there are a lot of different blends now of wines, reds and whites, but mainly reds, let's talk about. And one of the reasons for the reds—

Hold on, remind me, a blend is the combination of different types of grapes?

It can be, or even different barrels. Of wine of the same grape. Oh, okay. There's the, the amount of effort and the skill of the blenders because of, you know, tastings, being able to taste something and have in mind what you want to achieve and then blend in different components. I mean, as an example, if you go to Castel, they've got every barrel Um, when they do their blending, every barrel is represented by a small bottle that goes down this long table, and they taste every single one, and they mark them as to what, you know, what they feel the quality is and what they would add to a blend of wine. And then they decide how they're going to blend those barrels together and whether the wine is going to be in their, um, in their— what you call it— in their Grand Cru or in their Petit Castel, and they decide what they're— what the grapes are going to be used for in that. The effort and the skills, there's just— there's no words for that. They're just— these people are unbelievable. So when you get wines that are coming out of a winemaker that are consistently amazing wines, This guy isn't just— he doesn't just have the skills to put— to create this wine from the grapes. He has the skills to blend it together and get this flavor that is just awesome. And every so often they run into incredible flavors. As an example, Luis Pasco was talking about a wine that they made at Recanati, and it had this incredible mint flavor in it, smell and flavor, and it was just like unbelievable. And it was just an incredible bottle. And I, you know, if he could get back to that, he would do that in a heartbeat. But it's, you know, you get those one-off situations where you've got something exceptional. Number one is you got to recognize it, and number two is you've got to be be in a— have an opportunity to actually produce something from it that other people can try.

But there may be— but that's the point, is that there may be something fleeting in a certain vintage that you're— they'll never replicate. You're never going to get— and that's something unique about wine, I think.

Yeah, even, even, even the— all the Grand Crus that are coming out kosher now, coming out of, um, France, um, their vintages that are unbelievably great and some vintages that are just passable. Even though the wine is an incredible wine, it's nothing like, you know, a year ago or 2 years ago or whatever.

They say the skill of a great winemaker is making a great wine in a bad vintage when everyone else struggles.

That's true. It's true. But when you have something where everything clicks It's an incredible bottle of wine, just incredible bottle of wine. So we have some, we went through some pretty good bottles of wine over Shabbat and they were all Israeli and they were fun. They were, you know, they were fun and they were delicious.

The question I had over Shabbos, you had mentioned, I think towards the end of lunch, You were talking about the term spicy. Yeah, as it pertains to wine. Yeah. So when I hear spicy, I think, yeah, Tabasco and cayenne pepper, those sorts of things. But that's not the case with wine. What is— how would you describe what spicy is as it pertains to wine? I think of, you know, uh, Christmas time and you have apple cider, spicy cider, something like that, and it's got a burn, almost a full-bodied burn. But how can you make a wine that's spicy how I'm describing, or is there another way that when you guys say spicy it means—

okay, so one of the terms they use, especially with regard to Syrah, is spicy. Spice doesn't have to be hot. It can also be something that has a, a certain You might be better, Kenny, at describing, but—

I think that like a classic spice that you'll note, and especially with something like Syrah, is maybe like a pepper. And it's a lot of times those are the type of things. It's not a heat, more the profile of a spice is what you're thinking about with wine. Not the Tabasco, not the heat, not spicy in that way. It's, you know, English maybe doesn't have the proper words for these things. Spicy means multiple things.

Spices can be cinnamon, spices can be—

It's really all over the place.

All right, yeah, right. But I've not had a wine— that's why when I—

when you first said about the cider thing, I was like, some of the profile cider you find in wine for sure. Not, not as it pertains to, um, I don't remember what you said, heat. Yeah, but yeah, some of the other— and but spice is a—

it's a big word generally when we talk about— well, when I think of wines, I don't necessarily think of them as sweet because grapes by, you know, oh, it's a great grape, it's sweet. But we have wines that are not necessarily, you know, a dry wine, a semi-dry, but it still has kind of a, a grapey, fruity, sweeter flavor. So the term spicy, uh, threw me off. Okay. Oh, spicy. Okay.

You should have asked me this. I didn't want to.

No, I'll tell you, I didn't want to look stupid.

You weren't stupid at all. There's no stupid questions. There's no stupid questions. There are some stupid answers.

I've heard him ask actual stupid questions. I definitely have.

I've been around him for a long time. But with that, you know, the best way to taste that is to have two glasses, one with like a Syrah, one with a Cab, and taste them together. And then you'll see what people are talking about with regard to spice because it's very apparent.

Because around Halloween time, we get pumpkin spice. Yeah. Eggnog that had— oh yeah, but that's not hot.

No, no, it's not peppery, but it's got—

it's not a— it's a, a deeper—

yeah, but that's, that's the sort of spice you're getting in a Syrah. That's a sort of taste that you'll get. Sometimes you'll get bell peppers, um, you know, the taste of peppers, uh, capsicum, um, but not hot. It's not a If you're getting heat coming out of it, it's— that's not a good thing.

Well, that's the alcohol. The heat—

the alcohol is— if that's what you mean by heat.

I don't know, I think I would like a wine with some, uh, malt, like a pumpkin spice wine.

Yeah, that's how you know it's, uh, Thanksgiving is coming.

That's pumpkin spice wine, something in the air at Starbucks. Well, actually, if you have like one of Yakovoria's orange wines with a really hot spicy dish, like a Chinese or Indian dish, it's like crazy because it's— it, it plays— they play off of each other. They play— the tastes play off of each other really, really well.

I love orange wine. I love Jaco's orange wines. I love orange wines. You, you probably don't know what orange wine is. No. So orange wine looks orange, like orange juice, and it has nothing to do with the fruit orange.

Kind of this only a little more orange.

It will be orange color, and it— and it's what we were talking about earlier. It's from— it's from the skin sitting in the— in the wine itself that turn it that color. But what it also does— and it's a specific style, it's a white wine, it's a—

it's a— it's a white wine that's exposed to skins, right? And because it's exposed to skins, it gets— usually we expose red wines to skins in order to build up character and to give them the color The color also brings tannins and things that you— what's a tannin? Tannins are the— the best way to describe it to you is it's the kind of, um, prickly feeling you feel around your teeth and your gums when you're drinking a red wine.

Also, that's why we use an aerator, is that correct?

No, not exactly, but it's also what I— the way I, I describe it is the— that drying sensation on the top of your palate is caused by the tannins in a wine. And the tannins come from the skin and the seeds. Did you ever bite into grape skin, like the actual skin, and it's that real dry on your palate? Maybe.

You didn't, or you did? I don't know. No.

Well, I shove a grape in my mouth and eat it.

So grapes are not a really good example because I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. You're right, grapes are all sweet, all right, unless they're really bad, but grapes are typically all pretty sweet. And the reason why drier wines like this Riesling we're drinking is not sweet is we mix yeast with that wine, with that juice, and the yeast actually takes the sugars consumes the sugars and produces alcohol. And that's the reason why you'll end up with a dry wine rather than a sweet wine, because that sweetness is converted into alcohol. Is there yeast in this wine? There's yeast. It's probably dead. It's not probably, it's more than likely dead. After the alcohol reaches a certain level, it kills off the yeast.

Well, there's yeast on every natural product. That's why you can take a cucumber and pickle it. It's not actually pickling. What I'm saying is fermentation. You're using the natural yeast on the vegetable itself. And great winemaking is they add yeast also. They're very often— because they want to control— they want to control what happens. But you can make wine without yeast. You can just take the grapes because the grapes have their own yeast on them.

Yeah, but what does that wine taste like?

It tastes— it can taste good, but it's not— it's chancy, it's, it's risky. Instead, what they do is they typically overpower the yeast that's natural with the yeast that they want, because they want to— in wine, they're trying to control the, you know, the, the factors that create reasonable wine. They're trying to get something special at the end, so they, they're trying to control any any, uh, any of the variables they can control.

I think winemakers are conducting a symphony. That's the way I look at it. They, they— there's a lot of different parts to winemaking, and it's— it takes that expertise and a very specific level of skill to bring out the best of what the— of the grapes that they're, they're using. Does yeast change the flavor? I mean, yeast changes everything. And I don't— I'm not going to speak on the winemaking because I don't know enough, as Simon probably could, but They choose the yeast they choose for very specific reasons, to get a certain—

to get certain, um, attributes. Is there something, some ingredient that exists in the world that winemakers have not even thought of to put in wine?

Well, nothing in wine. Yes, yes, I'm sure, I'm sure.

You mean to add to wine, right?

Certain to make something new. So the wines we've described are all based on a certain premise, a certain process, and you get whatever wine it is like that, but it's all based off each other. It's like '80s music, right? They're all— it was very keyboardy and synthy during the '80s, and everybody kind of built off one another. And then came, let's say, grunge. Which you could say was built off of earlier rock and roll but had a different—

but all using the same instruments for the most part.

Okay, is there a song, a music that a winemaker can create that is different or divergent from the normal?

You like my symphony reference? It's good.

Yeah, you got me all amped up.

Yeah, um, I, I—

yes, okay, it has to be. Maybe it has to be this creative people, right? Look, Orange wine, orange wine's been around for a very long time, but, but it's, it's something that Iakovoria was experimenting with and ended up with it. And it wasn't until he gave some to a person who was a, a very big wine person, um, who said, oh wow, you have an orange wine. And he said, a what? And he said, you've got a, a white wine that's skin macerated. That's called an orange wine. And he goes, I didn't know that was called an orange wine. And he created it because he came up with this idea to do that. There's always people who mix, especially what's happening now. So this, the Torsier, what did you call it? Torsier, yeah. Torsier that you called, or Torister? Torister. Torister. Ford Torister. That's a unique name. That's a unique blend. Tawiga Nacional, which is Syrah. I mean, I can't say that nobody's ever done that before, but I don't know if anybody's ever done it before.

Right, but when I've drank it, it tasted like wine. Yeah. It was— is there something that is still wine, but oh my God, this is so different?

This is— orange wines are like that.

Well, orange wines are very— I really connect orange wines, a lot of the orange wines I've had, to beer. There's something about the body and the, the, the flavor profile of it that reminds me of certain beers. Have you ever—

I see, I only drink certain beers. Yeah, I'm not a, I'm not a light beer drinker. I like it. I like Belgium, um, heavy-duty Belgium, and they're almost like cabs, right? Some of those beers. So Yeah, I— so I, I, there's something—

I have some kind of bitterness. Yeah, the hoppy bitterness, maybe.

That is right, that is definitely there.

So, but I, but I think what you're asking is what can be added that's different. And I, nothing— they're working with the same instruments, you know. You can always, like, like you said, like you do something different with the instrument, but they're, you know, what's What's amazing about wine is that it's the same simple ingredients, you know, that there's lots of different ways to connect them and the chemistry can be different, but it's the same. But yeah, you see orange wine is a good example because it's a very different profile from a white wine or a red wine. And that's something a lot of people haven't even tasted until somewhat recently. It's trending now, I think, orange wine. and it's very different, but it's made with the same ingredients, it's just handled differently, and that's where winemaker expertise and experimentation comes in.

So one of the things that you asked me last time was, you know, like, what do you put into this wine in order to get these flavors? Nobody's putting anything into the wines. The yeast that goes in is not a flavor that's added. It's, and you don't need to add yeast, but they add it because they're trying to get a certain impact. They want it to ferment It may be a different temperature. They want it to be either cold or hot or what have you. So they're trying to accomplish something different with the yeasts, but it's not like that's a flavor that they've added and now all of a sudden you're going to get out something that tastes like the yeast or different. There's no extra flavors added.

I once drank wine with a guy at a tasting and he couldn't get over the fact that there was no like strawberry flavor added to the wine. Yeah.

There's strawberry in there.

I'm like, there's, there's not. That's just the profile of the wine.

We had— I had it. I had a rosé very recently that, um, with the guys from Mosaic, uh, Mosaic Cellars, um, they made this strawberry, uh, rosé, and it wasn't just strawberry, it was like strawberries with, um, with, uh, cotton candy. And it was like, whoa, it just like, you smell this and you get this flavor profile and you go crazy.

Yeah, there are grapes that you can get at Trader Joe's. Yep. Uh, during a certain season that are cotton candy.

Those aren't winemaking grapes though. Yeah, but anything you buy in a place like that, those, those grapes are not used. But right, they do. And that's not how that comes about.

That's not how they got that.

That is not how that comes about.

This was, these were, these were regular, um, actually they were, um, yeah, what grapes were those? I'll tell you, it was, um, I'll remember. Sangiovese. Sangiovese.

By the way, I'm 3 glasses of wine in, so it didn't come right to me. Well, so I have a question.

There is a trend, at least in America, I don't know if it exists here in Israel. Yes, we are. Is the following: I see a lot of wines in cans now, like Red Bull cans, that type of shape, right? How do we feel about those? Do you like Red Bull?

No. Well, then you won't like those wines, 'cause that's the same type of thing. No, I'm kidding. I think there is a future for that type of thing. For sure. Yeah, why not? I know it's a snobby thing to look down at that, like a can of wine, but why not? It's a good way to hold something. It's portable. You could take it to the beach.

And especially a wine that you wanna chill.

Yeah, like rosé in a can, like poolside. Fantastic, why not?

Or the blue bottles. Yeah, the blue bottles.

The Pardura. Yeah, why not?

Cans. Why not? It's, it's great. And absolutely, it holds them. They're sealed. Yeah. So that they don't go bad. It's the same thing with, um, just to be honest, in a more conventional form, having screw tops on some of the wines. It actually— I, I'd like it on, on some of the wines.

Preferable for some wines.

You can close it and you can put it back in the fridge and open it again later and not have to worry about shoving a cork. These are—

those are wines that are going to be more like a drink this year type of wine. Wines that are meant to age for a long time, yeah, you're not going to be able to put that, and, and nor a can.

And does the wine change taste or something, the profile change in a can or a screw-top bottle versus the traditional, uh, glass with the cork?

The things that they put into cans and screw— screw-top bottles, they pray to God that it's not going to change. That's the bottom line. They're trying to seal it into something that is not going to allow the wine to change very much. It's certainly not going to age and get better in a can or screw cap.

So you don't take a can of wine and put it in your wine cellar and wait a few years? No, you drink it, it's good to go.

It's— it— yeah, the only reason I buy a number of cans is if I've got an event, we're all outside for barbecue or something like that, and I'd do that. Okay, so usually though The wines that are in cans, you're just drinking them because they're like, they're water. They taste reasonable to you.

It's not to— It's refreshing. I got it.

Something to get you through the day. It's not meant to spend time with and enjoy.

You don't take a can and swish it around, swirl it around.

You're not taking a can and pouring it into a glass. Oh, you could.

You could do that.

I mean, you could.

I mean, that's probably the preference to do that, to take even Moscato, pour it into a glass glass, and then drink it. Um, you know, you don't have to swirl it around in a can and drink it. It's like, it's in a can. Do you—

because you can't see in a wine bottle's glass, and you can see sometimes there's residue. What do you call the residue on the bottom? Sediment. Yeah, excellent. In a can, does it also have that sediment? What do they usually—

they don't— usually they don't can wines that have sediment, so you're not going to find that in a Moscato. As an example, you're not going to find sediment in the bottom of it. Um, it's usually filtered away. Uh, one of the reasons they leave sediment in certain bottles is because, well, in certain bottles of reds, as an example, you'll get some sediment in the bottom because they don't want to filter them fully, and the, the sediment actually impacts or interacts with the liquid and continues to do that on an ongoing basis. I like sediment.

It's like orange juice with the pulp.

I agree. I love sediment too. I like pulp too. It's a fun thing at the end of a glass and you get to chew on the sediment. It's fantastic.

Actually with this, with some of the Riesling, more acidic Rieslings, you'll get crystals and that's tartaric acid that ends up crystallizing inside the bottles.

And that will happen, not always, because a lot of winemakers will cold stabilize their wine, which then will avoid taking that chance. And some winemakers want to avoid that, some don't. That's also a winemaker decision, as many are. And the first time that ever happened to me, I couldn't figure out what was floating in my wine. And so I did that deep dive on that and found out about the tartaric acid, that it crystallizes with coldness. I had a case of wine shipped to me. The winemaker didn't cold stabilize it, meaning didn't prepare it for that. It was shipped in cold weather and all the tartaric acid crystallized, which is, which is a form of acid. So maybe what it does is that it takes some of the acid out of the wine. But it's interesting that you have that crystally thing.

It's this pretty, the They're like little pretty crystals, like salt. Salt, it looks like it, but it doesn't taste like salt at all. It does actually probably taste more like salt than sugar, what have you. I always thought it was something else crystallizing out of it, but it isn't. It's that safe to drink?

No problem.

Yeah, it's not an issue.

It's something that's always in—

what is that crystal made out of? Tartaric acid.

Which is what? That's a natural byproduct of the fermentation.

Okay. Yeah, I love nature. You do. I love it. The Lord has created unbelievable things.

Where's boxed wine nowadays? We saw a little bit of that for a while.

I have not a clue, except that I know it's certainly not as popular as it was for a very short period of time.

I think the cans make sense, actually. I think the cans make sense. The boxes don't as much.

My question is, how do we feel about the blue bottle? Everything, everybody will always say, oh, it's a— yeah, the women drink it, the girls, it's a girly drink.

Here's where I am on it. I— so I— in a lot of the people I hang out with that really know wine, you'll hear a lot of snobbery about it. Um, I, I think it's exactly what it should be. It's a well-made Moscato, and it's popular for a reason, because it tastes good. You know, it's, it's— I don't drink it because I don't I prefer that style, but I understand why people like it. It's delicious. What's not to like about it?

But is the Blue Bottle's Moscato different than, say, um, I don't want to say Moscato.

Yeah, no, Moscato is— it's not very different. No, but it is different. It is that they're— look, where they make Moscato, I actually went and visited. I went to Asti and I saw the factory and what have you. Number one is that is the number one selling kosher wine in the world. And, okay, number—

that specific bottle is number one selling Moscato, kosher or non-kosher, in the world. Okay.

Oh, it was in hip-hop videos.

That was the biggest—

because it's so consistent and so sweet and delicious. It's like Coca-Cola. Yeah, I mean, that's why people drink it. So can I say something against that? No, I think it's— I think it's brilliant. It also provides support for all of the phenomenal wines that they're making in Italy and doing, you know, other wines in France and Israel. It sells very well and it's great. And I think more power, more power to them. It's not my preference, but when people like it— I buy Moscato. I have some in the fridge now. Not the blue bottle because it's easier for me to get a Tepperberg, which is an Israeli Moscato. Rather than an Italian Moscato. And, uh, I keep it in the fridge because there's always somebody in the party, in the, in the family that likes a sweeter wine rather than having a dry wine, right? That's a preference. This is subjective.

Understood. But in the wine world, uh, I'm the— I'm not in the wine world, but I look at that blue bottle almost like, you know, when you have beers, you look at Budweiser is the bottom of the, you know, it's the cheapest, the easiest, it's good, it's fine.

That's not the case with this. It's not.

The amount of effort that they put in to get that consistent flavor, that's real wine. I mean, this is not like grape juice that they put some water into and what have you. They ferment that and make that, and in order to control that in a way that creates this consistent product in millions of bottles, you know, volume, every year is crazy. I mean, it's, it's, it's an enormous amount of effort.

So you're talking about the effort. I'm talking almost like the, the wine snobbery. And we're drinking a Cabernet. That bottle you put, you know, alongside any of the other— not in taste and fanciness, but rather in, uh, I don't—

when we have RCC wine tastings, you aren't going to find a bottle of Moscato there. Okay. But the same way that when you have a family sitting at a table drinking, not everybody drinks Coke. Some people drink Pepsi. There's certain things that are very subjective as far as taste is concerned. So I always have a bottle in the fridge. We didn't open it this Shabbat, but I always have a bottle. Actually, I opened a different sweet wine that was more of a dessert sweet wine from Yaakovoria, it's called G.

Delicious.

It's really delicious wine called G.

Of course, that should— right, that should be your house wine.

You should walk around with that because it's unbelievable wine. Um, so, but I think, I think it's—

it— the, the idea of having that in any, like, wine cellar, like, of course, because there are people that prefer that style, and it's part of the, of the wine world, and I think it's an important part of the wine world. You can't force, you know, things on people that they don't like. If that's what people like, then more power to them. And I think that that's a, you know, an example of something that's well made. And like Simon was explaining, it's consistent and well made. And I don't think that's a joke. So stop making jokes. Always with the jokes.

That's what I do. I do jokes. So, but that wine then we're saying is— It's wine. Like any other bottle of wine.

It's real wine. It's real wine. But it's not gonna— you're not gonna find it sitting in a— cellar where, you know, or at a table with a bunch of serious wine drinkers. It's not like that's going to sit on the side and say, oh, now it's our— now it's our time to try the Moscato.

It's simple and fruity and sweet and fun. That's it. And that's what it is.

And that's— and it's made for people who aren't really, you know, big wine drinkers or what have you. It's fun. It's— it's— when— if I don't have that on my table— no, if I don't have that on my table when I'm drinking wine, there are certain people who are going to be left out of the conversation, and I just as soon allow them to have some wine.

Let me throw this at you. If someone makes Kiddush on a very poor-made wine, I'm not drinking that. If someone makes Kiddush on a Barton or a Blue Bottle, I absolutely will drink that. Because it's delicious. 100%. Why wouldn't I drink that?

You're supposed to use red wine for Kiddush. Yes.

Shabbos day you can. We didn't hit that question. Also Havdalah you can. You can actually use beer.

I do it many times. Okay, so, but, so there's an issue with wine, red wine. It's with regard to, uh, the Kabbalah talks about wine being, and it talks about wine being all different colors, um, red, white. In fact, we're coming up soon on Tu B'Shvat. On Tu B'Shvat, um, on Tu B'Shvat you actually have a seder where you drink arbakosot. Yeah, okay, people don't realize that it— this is probably the biggest wine drinking, um, time and fruit and wine celebration. But, um, but what they start with— this is, this is a common— there's a difference in certain people's view of the Kabbalah. They start with a red, a deep red wine, and they move to, to a lighter red and then a pink and then a white. My interpretation of the Kabbalah basically says that you start with a white and you move to a pink and then you move to a lighter, you know.

So you go from light to dark. This is what you do for the Arba Kosos?

Yeah, for the— no, but not for Pesach. Oh, I'm talking about Tu B'Shvat. Oh, Tu B'Shvat.

Tu B'Shvat Seder. Yes, you got to follow.

Right, right, you got to follow. It is He's following, he's following.

It's okay.

I was thinking about how delicious that Riesling was for a second. I tuned out. Carry on, Simon. No, so— So, and there's a specific kabbalah to do it that way for the Tu B'Shvat seder.

Yes, absolutely. If they, if Royal or some of the other wine people realized how important that was, I mean, we wouldn't be having big Pesach sales. We'd be having Tu B'Shvat sales. I don't know why they haven't gone there yet, but— They haven't.

They could put a box together which has 4 bottles in it, you know. Absolutely. And sell it as the Tu B'Shvat package. Let's do it.

Yeah, I think it would be great. Okay. I didn't know that. So that's one. But as far as Kabbalah is concerned, there's a discussion of which wines to use to make— what's the ideal wine to make kiddush over? So, the ideal is for it to be a red wine, not a white wine, for it to be a red wine. And that's the ideal, to make Kiddush over red wine. And in the Temple, if you're talking about in the Temple itself, the wines that they were using, I believe, were red.

Did they make white wines back in the day?

They probably did. They probably did. But I think they did. But even with that, I think that the ones that are thought of as being the richest and fullest and the best are always going to be reds. And I think that that's why in the Beit HaMikdash they used red. I think, you know, I wasn't there, so—

So let me bring this topic up. This is always hotly debated.

No, it's going to come. I know what you're going to bring it up, but go ahead.

Go for it. Go for it. This is a hot— I mentioned it, I think, yesterday, but maybe I didn't. But the hotly debated topic as it applies to Pesach and the idea that on a Pesach seder you're drinking red wine and the reasons you can discuss, which you just touched on. Now, I look at Pesach and I'm sitting there on a holiday and I say, "Shekhiyano," and I want to bring out special bottles for that. Is this what you thought I was going to bring up? No. Okay, now I'm interested what you thought I was going to bring out. I will, I'll just get there. But, and it's hotly debated among real wine people whether you bring out great bottles, and maybe there's an idea that you have to somewhat guzzle the wine in a certain amount of time at the Seder. So why are you using great wine? Use, use a basic wine for that because you're not really enjoying it by drinking that fast. Where do you stand on that, Simon? Do you understand the question? I understand the question perfectly. Yeah. Where do you stand on that?

I'll tell you where I stand on it. I'm not going to— I probably don't drink it as fast as rabbis say you should, or what have you, but I don't ever drink anything that way. I don't eat matzos, I don't stuff my mouth with matzo because they say to do that. I drink wine the way I drink wine, and I'm happy to drink really, really good wine. Because I normally drink a lot of really, really good wine. It's not like it's going to be something that's less. Correct.

And I, I thought that that's— it's almost like disrespectful is not the right word, but like, I'm drinking great wine regular night, why wouldn't I drink it when I'm sitting—

when it's a commandment to drink?

Exactly. Then I should drink the best one.

I'll tell you what my question is, what I thought— where I thought you were going to go.

Well, I'm glad you answered that, by the way, because that's how I feel.

I feel the same way. Great minds think alike. Fools seldom differ, but it's okay. The thing I was gonna bring up was there's a whole issue with, and it's interesting, it came off of last week's podcast with Nunzio, who is in Italy with Ralph Madebe and what have you, and he said, "I can't understand why anybody would boil their wine. It doesn't make any sense to me." to have this mevusha. What? It's— and, and I asked him point blank, so have you tasted it? Yes. Would you, you know, is it— is there a— yes, there's a difference, and I don't want to drink it. I don't even want to talk about it anymore. It's terrible. It's absolutely awful. Okay, what he doesn't understand is that's exactly what it's supposed to be, right? You're supposed to boil wine, the original intention, right? So that it's not wine, right? And, and it isn't. And that he's telling me, as a, as a, as a person who really knows wine, that no matter how we boil it or what we do, we end up with something that is not wine in his mind. Okay, great. That's exactly what I want. That's why we do it, right? And, and because it doesn't bother me when we boil it, it's a delicious wine as far as I'm concerned. And now I can use it as if it isn't wine. Right. Okay? But where I have a question is that how do I use a mevushal wine and make a bracha on it? Right. Why don't I just say shachol? Right. Why do I make a bracha on a mevushal wine, or how do I use that for Pesach?

Mevushal wine.

There are a lot of people that will not use that.

Wine that's cooked, mevushal. Yes, that's right. And that's the one that a non-Jew is allowed to touch. Good. It's the non-Mevushal wine. Yes, that a non-Jew is not allowed to touch.

100%, right.

I, I don't want to jump to it, to a different idea on the same topic, but Meushal, that process has like— I, you know, I read a lot about wine. I'm sure you do also. And the— as the climate is changing for whatever reason in Europe and in France, there are winemakers that are starting to pasteurize their wine to be able to control it better. And that's— it's an interesting thing. And maybe they're using some of the techniques that have been perfected by places like Hagafen and Covenant and places that really make—

okay, so, so I know that Ralph makes Mevushal wines, right? Okay, M&M out of Italy, right? And they use the absolute— they're not sitting there boiling these things on, on roasters or what have you, right? They're doing it in the most, the least impactful way in order to keep them as being kosher, but mevushal. So I know he's using the latest tech, I think, to make it. And that Nunzio's response was, "That's so ancient." "Why in the world would you ever use this? It's terrible." And that I don't have such an impact from it. I mean, David Raka always said, you know, like, why are we doing this? It's terrible.

I get it. Well, we know why we're doing it.

No, we're doing it so that we can drink it in restaurants. Right. And the hashgadah won't let you do that. So I get it. But, you know, and that's not true here in Israel. We can drink non-mefushel wine here.

It's America that's primarily the place that doesn't allow it anywhere.

But that said, I'm happy that there is a difference, because if it was a fake-out, and it really wasn't different, and you could go ahead and drink Mevushal wine just like non-Mevushal wine, and not have a difference, that would be a real fake-out, and maybe that is really not acceptable.

Well, I think that's just— it's funny, because I think that is where we are with a lot of Mevushal wine, is that a lot of it is as good, you know, the jury's out whether it ages the same, but a lot of it is— I mean, we know that from— you can drink a 25-year-old Alexander Valley from Herzog and it's fantastic. And I, you know, prove to me that that's not great wine in the best—

I'll tell you why. I'll tell you what's interesting. I went through this experiment. People said, "Oh, mevouchal wines don't age. They're terrible." I don't know whether they age or they don't. I can tell you that hands down, old mevushal wines taste better than anything else. That's interesting. And I think it freezes them in a point that they are when they taste very good. Interesting. And I think that, and it's an experience I've had with Jay Buchsbaum, that we've opened mevushal wines that are delicious.

I would posit the idea that you're drinking old Herzogs, which —No, it's different. Different ones.

I'm just telling you different wines that are Mevushal that have come out, though the majority are probably Herzog, because most of them weren't Mevushal before. But like, you can't get a Yarden that's Mevushal. So, that's—

That's such an interesting thing, though, that you said about the nuncio, that he said—

You know, I was sitting there thinking that people are going to sit there and go, oh God, That's awful. And I'm sitting there thinking, yay!

Hooray!

You're telling me something that makes me feel really good because guess what? It isn't the same. So I have non-Mevushal wines that I drink in certain places and I have Mevushal wines that I drink in other places. My question though then is, am I really allowed to make a bracha over these Mevushal wines? And because they're not really wines anymore. So, you know—

Well, I mean, obviously the consensus is Yes, we do. But it's a good question. Is it not the consensus?

I don't know whether anybody's really thought about it that way. You know, maybe they have, because certainly there is a consensus. There's a very strong thought that for the Four Cups on Pesach, you should use, you should absolutely not use Mevushel Blinds. Right. Okay? I don't know where that came out of left field, because The issue with that is all of these people go on Pesach programs. Right. In America and all over the place. And then the question is, you're going to use non-Mevushal wines in the time when you've got all of this activity going on. So I don't know how they play that. I don't go away for Pesach. I stay home. I love my wife's cooking. I love my mother's cooking. For good reason. Yeah, no, so I don't go away for Pesach. But, and I'm sorry if I'm not trying to kill the market here for people. But, um, but that said, well, we're marketing that, that Tu B'Shvat 4-pack.

Yeah, I like it. That's the thing I'm taking from tonight. Tu B'Shvat 4-pack. Yeah, the kosher terroir special.

I'm gonna talk to you, I'm gonna talk to Aviatar tomorrow. They should get that out. Love it. It's really fast. Okay, good. Thank you guys. We've covered a lot of ground. We did. I was all over the place.

I know, beautiful. What I expected. I asked Simon when we were coming up here, I'm like, what are we talking about? You'll see. Yeah. I got— we'll see. We'll see what happens.

It was okay.

I mean, we discussed it. I think we could do this for hours, honestly. Okay.

Thank you for being on the Kosher Terroir, guys. Really. Thank you. Great to be here. Thank you. You're welcome. This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. And whenever possible, buy and share Israeli wine. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Kosher Terroir. It was exciting and informative for me as well. Please subscribe. Via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you are new to the Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.