Fusing Kosher Cuisine and Wine: A Culinary Conversation with Chef Avner Guzman

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. There are rare opportunities I get to interview truly special guests. Chef Avner Guzman provided me with one of those moments. A kosher chef who throughout his life has strived to raise the bar and dream beyond his current accomplishments, focusing on creating a future he already can envision and taste. Born in a small seaside town of Barcelona in eastern Venezuela, Chef Guzmán got his start in food preparation in his family's own restaurant but soon traveled to England to work interning in various kitchens, always observing and learning from their diverse staff. He finally decided that if he was going to truly pursue the food industry, he needed an education. So he asked, what is the best cooking school in London? The clear response was Cordon Bleu. So he went in person to enroll. While there, he saw that they had many locations in the world, and he asked what was their best location where he could receive the best education. They responded, their Paris location. So he asked for his money back and traveled to Paris to enroll. Just to point out, Chef Avener at that time spoke Spanish, some broken English, but absolutely no French. Through his strong will, incredible work ethic, and determination, he enrolled and completed his Cordon Bleu training. The following is a conversation with my friend Chef Avner Nurwin Guzman. If you're driving, please continue while listening to Focus on the Road. If you're home, relax and grab a glass of wonderful kosher wine and enjoy. Welcome to the Kosher Terroir. I'm here with a good friend, a guest, Chef Avner Guzman. Wonderful to have you in Jerusalem. It's really wonderful to have you in Jerusalem.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, it's always wonderful to be in Jerusalem, especially at this time. Kind of the year Sukkot. And thank you for the invitation.

Pleasure, really a pleasure. And also, Avner brought along a friend, Shia Stern. So it's a pleasure to have you here in the studio with me.

Thank you for having me as well. Excited to be here.

The plan was to be in the Sukkah, which we can try to go up to in a few minutes, but it was drizzling a little bit in the Sukkah, so I thought it would probably be better to be in the studio with us. Actually, we should taste this first. This is, uh, quite a special wine. It was made by Yakovoria and a group of us who participated in it, called SOB, Special Oria Blend, before people start thinking of other, other notes, meaning other meanings. This is the 2018, which happens to be a lovely blend. It's Carignan based with Petit, with a Petit Syrah, a Syrah, a Pinot Noir, and a Grenache going down in percentages. So let's just take a shot at it. Let's try it. Baruch Atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'olam Boreh P'ri Ha'Gefen.

Amen.

Baruch Atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'olam Boreh P'ri Ha'Gefen.

It's a really lovely wine. It's a, it's a good red wine that we could really use some meat with, something more solid. But it's fun to taste it.

Avner, what would you, uh, pair with this wine?

My brain is starting to work.

Good.

But I need like—

I'll give you a few minutes.

Yes, give me 2 or 3 more sips.

Okay, take your time.

So far is excellent.

So you brought up a question, Shia, you brought up a question downstairs, and as we were talking about wine, you, um, you asked a question about it. So I said, hey, let's get on the podcast and let's talk about it, because I think this is a question that a lot of people have. So what was the question again?

You were mentioning two Yakovoria orange wines that you had made, and I wanted to know the difference between a natural wine and an orange wine.

Okay, so a natural wine— or it's another term that they use for natural wines— biodynamic wine. Ah, um, so biodynamic wine is a wine that's made starting in the vineyard using natural insect repellents rather than chemical insecticides, as well as natural products within the process like natural yeasts. In a biodynamic wine, they actually harvest at a specific time, um, they put wine into fermentation tanks, they move it from fermentation tanks into barrels, and they only disturb those barrels when there is no moon. And the reason why is because what they found is that the moon creates a gravitational pull, and that gravitational pull not only moves water in the ocean, but you can actually, if you do it properly, And I'm not an expert on biodynamic wines, but if you do it properly, you don't even have to filter the wines because the sediment stays at the bottom of the barrels as you're pulling the wine off the top of it, as long as you do it at, you know, certain times. So the moon is part of it. Part of it is also that the actual process is sustainable. In some instances, they don't, they don't really like you to use pumps. In some instances, they do use pumps, and in some instances, they use just gravity feed for wines. So there's, there's a number of plays on that. One of the kosher wines that is really focused on being biodynamic is Elvie. Moses, Moses Cohen and David David Cohen. Uh, actually, Moses and David are the marketing people behind it. They're— Moses's wife is the, is the actual winemaker who's really good. And, uh, and they focus— all of their wines are biodynamic. But you also asked the difference between orange wines and biodynamic.

Yeah.

Yes, orange wines are totally different. Orange wines can be totally non-biodynamic. What gives a wine color, the difference between a red and a white wine— a lot of people feel that a red wine is made from red grapes and a white wine is made from white grapes. That is not true, not entirely true. A red wine is a wine that is left where it's squeezed and the juice is left with the, um, with the skins. In that instance, it— that's what gives it the red color, and it also gives it the tannins and everything else that's with it. A white wine is typically squeezed, everything that isn't juice is thrown, and they just take the juice and ferment the juice. Okay, okay. So in one instance, they're fermenting it with all of the skins. The other instance, they're fermenting it without all of the skins. Now, when you're making red wine, one of the rules is that you, you've gotta absolutely— you know, like, now you're seeing wines that are clusters, full cluster wines and things like that, that are, that are focused on making sure that the skins are all together with it. And and it's not processed without that. Um, when you're making white wines and you have to throw the skins away, it's kind of almost like, wait a minute, if I'm trying to get the best expression of these grapes, don't I want to include the skins? Uh, but if I include the skins, then all of a sudden I'm making a red wine. So the difference is that if you leave it with exposure to the skins, what we call skin macerated wines, uh, then what happens is the wine will get a tinge of color, a golden or orange color in some instances. And they— the, the name that they noted for that was orange wines. Now, orange wines are different Orange wines are very different than white wines. They taste a lot more like reds. They've— because of the tannins that, that are imparted because of the skins, and also because it, um, it, it gets— it's, it's kind of a fuller, more robust flavor. But it's also a flavor that if you're an old-time wine drinker, you might not necessarily be able to deal with.

Um, why is that?

The best way it was explained to me by Yakovoria: your brain creates boxes for different flavors. So I have a flavor that I've gotten from this wine, and I know what a Grenache takes— tastes like, and I know what a Viognier tastes like, um, and a Carignan tastes like. All of a sudden, when you get a flavor like an orange wine there isn't a box to put it into.

You have, you have no reference.

There's no reference to it. And because of that lack of reference, you end up, um, it, it's like a discord in your, in your mind as to what you're tasting. So that's, um, that's, you know, it's an interesting thing. But I'll be honest, in, as the food flavors have gotten more intense, as food's gotten more Mediterranean in style, as food has gotten more, you know, really taste-driven, even meats with fat are more intense, just regular wine for me doesn't cut it. You know, having an orange wine with a spicy fish or spicy chicken wings or what have you is awesome. It's just crazy good.

Sometimes it's very difficult to pair, for example, chicken wings. So difficult, so hard to pair with wine.

With an orange wine, it's like heaven. It's like heaven. You know, sometimes people pair with chicken wings beer. As an example, because it's got a lot of, uh, yeast in it and what have you. Um, that works pretty well, but orange wines with things like chicken wings or, or spicy Spanish food or what have you are just crazy. So because of that, I think because of the palate moving towards a food that's more tasty and more robust and more expressive in the palate, Then I think orange wines have become more adopted because of that. And, you know, I could be wrong, but I think—

Do you think that orange wine is going to be just a trend, or they are here to stay longer?

Is spicy food going to be a trend, or is it here to stay longer?

No, going to stay longer.

If it's going to stay longer, then orange wines are going to stay longer too, because it's— it— they They're really built for each other.

Okay, and then you said that there is a— for people who are used to drink wine, it's like it's a new reference on your brand for orange wine, but what about the big, big, big, big community that is not yet into wine?

Okay, so as an example, you've got foods that are there for a much larger community— as an example, steaks and potatoes and what have you— I think that they meet the needs of a kind of an older, more established community. That's their taste. As you're introducing new tastes, you're picking up new customers, new younger people. Some of the older ones, like myself— I'm not a youngster— And I'm— but I'm open enough to try and like, uh, like things. Some people can't accommodate that, accommodate to that, but on the ones that can, I believe that they're— it's an introduction to a whole new population of people. In fact, I think that was one of the reasons why a lot of younger people weren't picking up wines. They were They, you know, if everything was a Cab-based or Merlot-based, uh, I want a cocktail, I want to try this, I want to try that. They want different flavors. They don't want the things that their parents drank, um, though Scotch seems to hang in there for a lot of young people too. But it's— but that said, it's, uh, I think because of the food trend and this new kind of modern Mediterranean, South American, Asian fusion that's going on. I think that orange wines are definitely there, and even some of the just the plain whites being much more robust and fuller and more acid-based. I think that there's a tremendous place for them. In fact, it even is much, much more than where the sweet wines— I kind of, I categorize wines as 3 categories: red, white, and blue. Blue is the Moscato bottles, and, uh, red and white is like red and white wine. So, um, and, and what I find is there are people in different places with it. I, I don't think spicy food lends itself to like a a Moscato, as an example, um, it, you know, a sweet Moscato. People aren't going to go there with that. They— that's why they want cocktails, or they want something with, uh, you know, tomato juice or other things mixed in with the cocktail that'll go with it.

But for— it's— I'm just wondering here, it's impressive, like 20 years ago, uh, Today we are here in a conversation about kosher wine because now we have a real industry. And like 20 years ago, it was like crazy to imagine that there were people, regular people like us, speaking and having a discussion about wine. And now we are like into a very, very specific niche of a new trend that maybe came to be longer. So, and honestly, that's what's been helping out. For me, the evolution of wine is what's been helping people like me in the industry.

Helping you with regard to food?

Yes. Right.

So that's an interesting play, and I think that that's an interesting play on both sides. I think that what you're doing with food is helping the industry in wine and in both directions.

For me, I see the wine like they're taking me at the hand and then bring me up, because when you try the complexity of the wine, when you try, when you met people that are enthusiastic and then very, very, very into this world. So I have no option but going in the same direction. So we switch from drinking very sweet wine like 20, 25 years ago, and then we are having today all kind of Grand Cru, all kind of amazing wines from all around the world. So we have every, everywhere, every place where they're producing good wine. So there is kosher wine. So I mean, this, I'm, it's been very beneficial for me, for restaurants, and for chefs around the world, having just people like you.

Wow. So let's, let's talk a little bit, let's talk a little bit about where you came from, because I brought you on and we started talking about wine right away. And actually, you're both foodies, you're both food-driven people. And talk to me a little bit about where did you start from? How did you start? Where did you start?

I started in a professional way, working in England in a non-Kosher place.

So you were born in England?

No, no, no, no, no, no. I was born in Venezuela. So my mother language is Español, Spanish.

Where in Caracas?

No, I grew up in a city, small city called Barcelona.

Okay, I know. On the, what you call it, on the East Coast.

That was very creative for the, the guy who came from Spain. He came from Barcelona. Yeah, he done there. He said, okay, there is a beach, we're gonna call this place Barcelona. Nueva Barcelona. So yes, I was born in Barcelona. Uh, when I was a kid, my father had a restaurant just in front of the Caribbean Sea. So part of my childhood was watching this kind of entropy around me, cooking and serving people and helping people. So So I was not a stranger, I was not foreign to this idea of choosing this path. I moved to England trying to learn English. So if you have any complaint about my English today, go to talk to the British people. And then from then I start to cooking to be like in professional way in England. And then I decide I have to go. I have— I embrace cooking like was natural, was like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And I remember when I make the decision and still today is one of the best things that's happened to me. So I have the same passion, I have the same strain, and I enjoy like the first time cooking. So cooking is not work, it's not a job, it's life. I went to culinary school.

You went to like a minor culinary school like nobody knows about.

Yeah, yes, yes. Yes. Tiny school that has more than 130 years old.

Yes.

Called Cordon Bleu. Yeah.

Only the best food school in the world. I don't know how you— how did you end up picking that? You just— you were in England and you said, let's go.

I was in England and I said to myself, listen, I believe in education. I think education is the best investment that you can do on yourself. So I said, I don't want to go to a place— with all the respect that every single school have, I just— but I wanted for me only the best. So I enrolled myself in— I found that Cordon Bleu was the best school in England. And then I said, okay, among all the Cordon Bleus that you have in the world, which one is the best? So in London they said me Paris. I said, okay, can you give me back my money? And right now, so same day I contact Cordon Bleu Paris and they organized, take me like 3 months to organize everything and I move, I moved to Paris, I moved to France only to go to this culinary school and was one of the best experience of my life.

So you were speaking what language?

Um, no, when I arrived to France, not, not French at all.

So you were speaking in Spanish, Spanish, and mal inglés, bad English. Okay.

And, or broken, broken English, and no French. Wow. But a lot, a lot of determination.

Must have been. Yes.

And then I, I made it. So I went to culinary school. I succeed finishing like not among the best ones, but— and then I get a job in a— I get a stage. And I don't, I don't like to talk about this because that does have to be a subject for another podcast. Michelin-starred restaurants.

Okay.

Everyone, if you peel a potato in a Michelin— and these people have to learn this, please, in the Jewish community— doesn't mean if I open oysters in a Michelin-star restaurant doesn't mean that you are a Michelin-star chef. I've been a lot of publicity all around this Michelin star. That doesn't exist. Michelin star belongs to the place, and then it's another world. We are really, really far away from that. Maybe one day, maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20 years.

There is, I'm told there's a kosher restaurant in Barcelona.

Cierto. Am I pronouncing that wrong?

Okay, that's different because it's a restaurant that is non-kosher and have a kosher facility. And then the non-kosher restaurant has one or two, one Michelin star.

I think it's one Michelin star. Put it there. You can put it there. Would you like some more?

Of course. So, uh, we cannot say that the kosher spot has one Michelin star. They are prep. Just let's imagine that I hire like Pierre Gagné and then I bring him to Jerusalem and then he's gonna cook special meal, uh, I don't know, for an charity event, right? So we can say that this Pierre Gagné, that he has— I don't know, you have to be like 3 Michelin stars because he has multiple restaurants all around the world. But that doesn't mean that the place where he came to cook, because he's—

so if he came to my house, I'm not— I don't become a Michelin star restaurant?

No, no, you don't become a Michelin star restaurant. So, so that's— but that doesn't mean that, that we, we have been improving the level of cooking, as I said, in the last 20 years. We— 20 years before, no, there's not a single fellow Jew who wanted to become chef. There were people who wanted to become doctors, lawyers. Now people are allowing themselves to dream to become a chef because There is certain respect now to the profession, to the career of being a chef. Why we end in talking about Michelin star?

Well, no, so what I was going to say was you went for a stage, for an internship to Los Moscos.

No, no, no, before Los Moscos, that's— it's not there because I don't like to talk about it.

Okay.

Was not— was a really, really hard experience. So it was a 3-year semesters. I didn't end like a long time. Was very, very, very, very tough. The only thing that you can learn there is that you're able to— when you think that you have limits, the limit that you have in your mind is not true, so you can go further. That's the only good thing I get from there. But then, now talking about good things, I went to Osmos. Osmos had the level of minimum 1 Michelin star and was until today one of the best experience of my life. I met there the chef, is Yoni Sada, a friend, became a friend.

He's only, he's only like 10 years older than you, not even 10 years older than you, I don't think, maybe 10 years.

He's very Italian, right? Very, he's kind of genius. He's been, he, he became a little bit famous, or famous, he went to, to cooking shows, he He has been writing like 2 or 3 books. He has to be, I have to have like, I don't know, 5 restaurants in Paris.

Yeah.

All successful. Non-kosher. Let's say kosher-friendly. I don't know if we are allowed to say that.

You could say it. What does it mean? Kosher-friendly? Kosher-friendly is like kosher ingredients without hashkacha.

Yeah, but it doesn't mean it's totally kosher ingredients. Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, it's to good conscience.

Okay.

And Osmose was—

Osmose was totally fully kosher. Yeah.

Osmose was totally kosher.

Fully kosher. So we had like, I can't remember, like, just imagine doing foie gras on 3 or 5 textures different, like foie gras crème brûlée, ice cream foie gras. Grill Fuego was like crazy. He is, he is, and still today I inspire myself from, from his ideas. Yoni Sade is like a, for me, it's a reference.

Wow, very cool, very cool.

So yeah, and then I work in a bunch of restaurants there, like, uh, Cavote, uh, L'Atelier de Lee. Some of them I was just consulting. Bazar, Maestro.

So these are all kosher restaurants?

All kosher restaurants. So I, I, yeah, I went after, after Osmose, I will— I went fully kosher. So just kosher. So I needed, I needed for Shabbat, for for, you know, so—

Is there somebody who turned you on in the kosher world? Is there a rabbi who turned you on?

I have to say that my process was a little bit weird. I had personal situations who drove me close to religion. So I started to ask myself, should I do this, should I do this, in order to You know, you are looking for stuff, you are dreaming having stuff or asking, praying. And then I start to ask. The first time I went to a kollel, it was like Mars for me, it was like all the world was. And then I start to— there is a guy who invite me Shabbat to his house, a kollel man. And then they are always raising money for the kollel. 'Come, come, come Shabbat.' And they said, 'I want you to help the kolel monthly. Are you able to?' I said, 'Listen, yes, but I need to, I have to have something in return.' How do you say?

In return. Yeah.

He said, 'Okay, if you want, you come once per week and then you go to a shiur with a rabbi. I have a rabbi who is going to fit for you perfect.' I said, okay. Tuesday morning I go to the kollel. I go to the kollel, the rabbi has big, big stuff on his finger. He cut himself cooking. Big foodie. The rabbi is a big foodie. And then he doesn't know that I— then I asked him, what's happened? He said, I was cooking big ribs. I said, you know that what they do for— what my job? No, I'm a chef. He was so excited, so excited. And then I remember clearly what was the first perek of Mesilat Yesharim. Yesod haChasidut beshores haAvoda. That expression for me was like, that's sure I remember forever. And then since that day, I start to go every single Tuesday. What's happened? One month After I started to learn with this Rabbi, the restaurant where I was working, it was a leak, water.

Yeah.

And then the ceiling, the whole ceiling fell down. Boom. They sent us home fully paid for 1 year. I was totally free with the full payment, and then I had nothing to do. I start to go to the kollel from the morning until the afternoon late with this rabbi. His name is Shmuel Levi. So, mekora beracha. It's my friend, is my rabbi. Shadia knows him.

I feel like only in Paris do you find a foodie rosh kollel. Nowhere else.

Yeah. And then that changed my life.

That's what amazes me because like to go to school in Paris for food. It's like the center of food in the world. Um, I, you know, I'm gonna get a lot of people who are gonna complain about that statement, but it's true. I mean, it's like really, that's the center of creative food.

I think it's when you write down something, you became a reference.

Yeah.

In history, we said that French people learned to cook from Italians. When the Medici moved from Italy to France, they bring a bunch of chefs and cooks. So what we said is that French people start to learn. French people actually, they pick up from— maybe you're gonna have trouble after this— they pick up from the Italians how to cook, and they picked up from the Russians how to serve. So if you see, just picture these films where in the French banquet you have all the food served. That was the French service. Everything in one spot is on the table. But the Russian service was, of course, courses. 1, 2, 3. So they take this structure from Russians. So, but guess what? The first who codified, the first who write down recipes, structures, etiquette, how to do, the law of gastronomy were the French. So even if the ideas— just imagine we are talking about food or wine. And then I take all the information you are giving to me, and tomorrow I'm gonna write down a book about orange wine, about the process of the difference between red wine and white wine, and then I'm gonna write this book. 10 years from today, people are gonna give credit to me, not to you. Even if I get the information from you, no one is gonna think about you. So the first that codifies something, or the first is the thing that's right down, something's gonna get all the— so French, they were clever enough. That's, that's why they are a reference. But I have to say today that Spain, in order of creativity, they are really, really, really, really good. Spanish.

That's interesting. Even more than the French?

For me, point of view of creativity, yes.

Cool, cool. That's good to know. This is—

so we were talking about Cordon Bleu. Cordon Bleu, I love Cordon Bleu, is the alma mater. But every year, till COVID now, I went to a place called Basque Culinary Center. Is in the Basque Country in Spain and have to be the equivalent of Harvard for chef.

Harvard.

Yes, it's crazy, crazy, crazy. What you learn there and the network you're able to make there is crazy. It's crazy. And then—

Are there any other kosher chefs who go there?

No, I don't think so. Not a single one that has this dry of curiosity.

Cool. Very cool. Very interesting. So you also cook for different families. That's one of the things that you do. You go around the world cooking for families.

Yes. If the definition of around the world in the Jigwees world is Jerusalem, Paris, New York, the Caribbean. Yes.

Hong Kong?

Not yet.

Okay.

Not yet. Yes, I have mainly today, I have two activities. It's like I own a restaurant in Paris called Etnican. That is a kosher restaurant that is a very, very interesting concept. And I have as well, Lucy, as well a company called Kosher Experience. And with Kosher Experience, I travel the world, uh, doing private kosher events for for small families or for like vacations everywhere. So last summer I went to Portofino with the family and to San Giacomo Caffè Rau. Beautiful experience, not easy, but beautiful experience. So now thanks to all this desire of people to experience good food with good wine. So I'm able to— because it's not just making a steak and just throwing some potatoes in the oven. It's just with all this knowledge, information, experience that I've been gathering all around. So we are able to give people the opportunity to experience. So, and the wine is helping me out.

So Let me ask you a question. What sort of experimentation do you do with these families? Like, what sort of things can you do that are new and different and what have you?

The job of private chef has two parts. The first part is you're cooking, and the second part, you're a therapist. You have to understand the psychology of people in order to give them what they want. Not what they say they want, what they— you have to read the thinking, the behavior, the way how they act then, because sometimes they say, I don't like this, but saying I don't like this ingredient is They are saying to you, I had a very bad experience with this flavor, with this ranch flavor, and then I don't want to have it again. But what if you take the same ingredient and then you don't force them, you convince them. Listen, you know where to find, where to find the food you like it. Yes, I promise you, you don't like it, they're gonna prep every single day what you like. Just please give, give, give to this ingredient a new opportunity. So to try to erase this bad souvenir that you had with this, and then happens like in 80% or 90% of cases, people became close. They are not— maybe they are not becoming the best fan of this, the bigger fan of this product, but they're going to try to enjoy and to eat step by step, little by little.

Give me an example. What's an example of that?

Okay, someone who said they hate raw fish. I tried raw fish, I want to I hate, I cannot say it. And that's happened, you know, that's one especially for American people. They cannot stand the smell of fish. And then you go, you say some words, and then you use some techniques, of course, to improve or to change. You have to know what's happened. Okay. And then people go try it, and then they said, okay, maybe I'm gonna give a second option. Uh, there is something, beet. I had a client said, beetroots give me headache. I said, why? When he was a child, their aunt forced him to drink beet juice because he was sick. He was, I don't know, anemia, something like this. But this souvenir of being forced to do something put him away from this. So in a gentleman manner, so you go, you make like a carpaccio. Beet needs acidity. Beet needs texture. Like, just imagine a nice carpaccio, but don't boil your your beetroot. Just roast in the oven. When it's done, you're gonna keep all the flavor. Make a nice carpaccio, then a nice drop of acidity, let's say some, uh, pressed lemon, and then a touch, a very, very tiny touch of honey, a drizzle, some lemon zest, and some nuts, any nuts that you like. That is enough. Because you're gonna have all the range. Jakob said you have— we have boxes on the mind, and those boxes that you have, the reference of the flavor, are linked to an experience. If the range of the flavor, the box of bit, is linked to a trauma, for sure you're not going to want to try. So I don't want to say when people came to me because it sounds like a therapist, but when I try to give people one experience, it's not just cooking. It's not just cooking. It's trying to get into the human being. So the definition of a souvenir, you have— I repeat this all the time— you need two things. You need information, knowledge, and emotion. How many times you were sitting down in the university and people were saying words, words, words, and nothing happened there, and then you don't remember. But when— just imagine the same t-shirt is giving you information, and then something happened, an explosion, or something drops, someone drops something, and then you're gonna remember. They— you're gonna make a link between what's happened and the information you have, and then you're gonna build up a souvenir. So cooking is about that. Cooking is— 2 days ago at the place where I'm cooking here in Jerusalem, at the end of the dinner, everyone started to speak about childhood. Why? Because I came out, and that's part of the experience. I don't want to say show, but experience. I came out with a Shanti bomb and they start to serve people on their dishes. It's nothing. It's literally nothing. It's not 3 Michelin star experience. But then he said, I remember when I was a kid, I came into the— I open and then I take the chantilly, I put in my mouth. And then the Balabhai said, can you please put some chantilly on me? Give me chantilly. So this kind—

Tell me what that is again.

Chantilly.

Whipped cream.

Whipped cream.

Ah, whipped cream. Okay.

Thank you, Shaia.

You're welcome.

No, no problem.

Chantilly, whipped cream.

Whipped cream.

Sorry, I was—

No, no, you're allowed.

I thought that chantilly was universal.

No, it's not. It's okay. But I wanted to clear it up. That's all. So now I understand what you're saying because I can see that very clearly.

So, so, is, is Cooking food, wine goes deep into the spirit of people. So that's what we do is so, so important. I mean, I don't know if it's so important, but for me it's very important.

Okay, so I have a question for you. I know you've worked with a lot of different wineries and wine people and what have you. Is there somebody in particular that you've worked with over the years that's been just really amazing to deal with? Any winemakers that you've spoken to? If you haven't, then I gotta introduce you to a bunch of people.

But I, I, I've been dealing with basically in Paris, uh, okay, I have, I have to give name because they're gonna be mad at me. Yeah, if I don't say names.

No, say good names. I don't have a problem with that.

So, so of course I'm not— I'm— I don't call myself an expert on wine because it's not true, but I love wine. I don't know if you, you see what I mean. I, I see. I drink wine, I don't know, almost every day, and, and I just drink your wine. I was I ask, I tell you, I need more time to come with an idea, but I don't want to come with the same idea that everyone came.

Yeah.

So your wine.

Yeah, the SOB. Yeah.

This which year?

This is a 2018. So it's very specific.

I was thinking about something made with Marugond.

Okay.

I mean, but not just Marugond, Marugond in 2 or 3 different textures.

How so? How do you get Naropa in 2 or 3 different sectors?

Okay, that's another different podcast.

Okay.

So I'm going to answer after. So, but just to keep track of the question you just asked is, first of all, I have my very good friend. I'm not saying about wines and talking about people. Elie from Cantina Giuliano.

Wow.

He's Elie Gauthier.

Elie Gauthier. He is an amazing human being. Sweet guy. Elie, don't believe— hey, ne crois pas que je suis en train de te jeter des fleurs. Don't believe what I'm saying. I've been close to Elie for a long time.

So it's on my bucket list of places that I really want to go with my wife. And spend at least the night there and have him cook and also drink the wine. And I'm so looking forward to doing that, but I have yet to do it.

The whole experience. Each time I'm after one big event, like after Pesach, I was so, so, so, so tired. I said to my wife, listen, let's go for a walk. For a Shabbat, a weekend, to Eli, I know we're going to drink good wine and eat well and then relax. So Eli has been a friend for a long time. And then I know his commitment to good things. He's, you know, there is a song that says, hayinu keholmin. He's a dreamer. He is a dreamer, but in a good way. I mean, he imagines something and then he makes it happen. So I have such a respect and admiration for this guy. I know other people who make wine, who produce wine. Of course, my good friend Ralph Madeira. Uh, just saying, Ralph, that you, you know what this is all about.

So he's such a special person, crazy, crazy, incredible person. I, I love him. We have a mutual love relationship. He's— I'm Sephardi, he's Sephardi, Gumkin, and also he's Sephardi as well, but he calls me Zaidi, and that name has stuck. And, and like, I'm, I'm Sefardi, you know, like all my grandkids call me Saba. Everybody, you know, like it's— I am as far from a Zaidi as possible, but he called me Zaidi. Everybody calls me Zaidi now. But I love him. He's, he's the best.

Ralph, he, he is a very—

he's a good neshama.

And, and related to wine, he understands He understands what is— he's having wine, that's why we have to—

yeah, I'm sorry, I noticed an empty glass.

Don't be sorry for that.

I noticed an empty glass, so I said, I'm pouring.

Ralph, I have to say the only thing, Doctor, I love you. If you're going to listen this someday, for sure you're going to listen this.

Yeah, probably.

I love you.

I did a podcast with him. I know I did a podcast and it was one of the number one podcasts that I've done. I don't, you know, of all the people, he got more followers than anybody else.

So they have, he has something that he has such a strong drive. He wants to do things and he wants to do things in the right, but in the right way. That's it. I met David Cohen.

David, yeah, from Elvi.

From Elvi. I met Elvi Wines one time at the Kosher Wine Festival. We spent an amazing, amazing time at the restaurant. He came, David, and I am a big, big, big fan of their wines. By the way, he is, you know, he's one of the fully kosher, uh, wineries. Wineries, yeah. He's not just, yeah, part, um, uh, this Yaakov from Yatir.

Yeah, I have Yaakov. Is— I, and I just had a podcast with him two podcasts ago with Yaakov and Eti, but Yaakov from Yatir is also incredible They are like amazing, amazing, amazing people. Team.

Yes. Yes, I really enjoyed, you know, when we came to wine, for me, there is not competition. There is not people more or less than. I've been working a lot with Menachem Israelovich. Uh, who handles all the French wines for Royals. Uh, very good friend. So that's give me access to, to like a privileged position related to wine, even if I'm not a wine expert. So, so I'm missing someone.

What, what's really cool with that is that I, you know, when I initially started to talk about doing some restaurants or some chefs, people were like, you know, but your podcast's about wine. And people don't realize that the connection— there's such an incredible connection between restaurants and wine, especially now in kosher in the kosher world, they don't realize that most of the kosher wines that are sold in Israel are sold via restaurants. The restaurants in Tel Aviv, even non-kosher restaurants, you know, gravitate to some of these exceptional kosher winemakers because they're looking for good wine, they're looking for special wines.

So it's, it's Every single winemaker, I think, someone who has the ability to change grapes into wine, is— you have to have respect for those people. It's like, it's not by chance that the Torah tradition links kedusha, or blessing the name of you get with wine. So there is something beyond, more mysterious than only physical and chemical reactions. Have to have something. So people who are able to transform grape juice into this elixir have to be special people. I remember we— I had this small winery called Betel I think it was a Carmelian wine that they make. It's really, really good. They make it like— tastes— what I do often is sometimes at the restaurant I prepare a tasting menu with different tiers of the wine people have been making. So we were talking about going to a winery. If you have any suggestions.

I do. I do.

So, so, and, uh, Shia asked me, what's the point to go to, into a winery to try wine?

First of all, once you've already been to as many as you've been, you know, wine is special.

Nothing's ever the same. And if you've got a creative winemaker, a lot of the winemakers are doing things that are different. If you've noticed, I'll give you a couple of examples. In Castel, they've created a brand called Raziel. Okay, in Flamme, they've created— they didn't create a separate brand, but they did create, um, a, a very specific bottle called White Label. Okay, if you go to Yatir with Yakov from Yatir, they created a brand called Darom.

They're on—

in each of those instances, they've created something where the winemakers can play, they can have fun, they can be creative, they can do things that are different and new. Because after a while, winemakers get tired and they want to experiment. You don't want to alienate your whole base of drink— wine drinkers. Like, take a wine that you do and that a lot of people love and all of a sudden change it. So what they're looking for is something else, some area outside to be able to play. And Raziel is the place where Castel plays. Raziel is really— it's a Mediterranean blend rather than a Bordeaux blend wine. The same thing happened in Flom with their white level. It's with their white label, it's a Mediterranean blend rather than a Bordeaux, French Bordeaux blend. Um, it's, you know, they're doing things that are different. With Iakovoria, he is making some crazy whites that are really different. Um, His latest one has 12— he's taken wine, he's taken grapes from a single vineyard and he's fermented them 12 different ways. Wow. Okay, and then he's taken those 12 and blended them together into a single wine. So it's like literally nuts, to be quite honest. It's crazy, but he's gotten it, it, it's so expressive that it gives you— he calls it Jakob's Playground. But, and there's some new branded ones that are coming out. I don't know if they're introduced yet, so I don't want to tell you what they are, but there's some new ones that are— go along those same themes, um, where it's just— these are whites that almost taste like white burgundies, which are crazy rich wines, and they're coming out of Israel, and they're just an enormous amount of effort, but they're just beautiful wines. So I— it's, it's an interesting thing to see.

You are saying all this stuff, and I just picture myself in this situation. Sometimes you have like, yes, this commercial spot of you have to sell only this menu because people want to go easy, just this. But then just imagine I have another restaurant where when you come here, you say nothing, I take care of everything. You let me know if you have any allergies any preference, but carte blanche. It's like I take care of everything. So, and that's so, so, so— how I can say— the satisfaction of having this opportunity to express yourself, because certainly these activities are manual activities. You have a lot of work, but has this artistic expression, like you need to express yourself and cooking, making wine is part of this. So let's say we don't know when you make a weird association. I was once at a dinner and I had the Hutzpah observing tomatoes and watermelon. And between us, this is weird, really weird. And I don't know if it was good or not, but until today people are still talking about this.

It was good. I was there.

As a dessert. So just imagine having a dessert, tomatoes and watermelon.

As long as you salted it, I could see how that would be crazy good. I could see how that was good.

And I'm still, I'm still sticking to this idea of having, building something from this yesod, from this base. So, so you need, because cooking and now wine is like, there's no limits, no, literally no limits. If you have a good pool of techniques— you have to have techniques. It's not like, I want to become winemaker tomorrow and then I put some— I mix stuff and that's it. No, you have to have techniques. If you have a good pool of techniques—

you have to build it over a period of time—

and you have a good list of terroir ingredients, yeah, and then you just connect that, this with this, this with this, let's try what's happening. Let's try what's happening. And then I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible.

Nothing's easy. I mean, well, I can't say nothing's easy, but there are some things. But the things that are worthwhile waiting for and experiencing are not easy. They're awesome. Do you have a favorite wine?

Ooh, ooh, yes. I can't say I have a bunch of— okay, uh, lately I've been drinking a rosé. Okay, uh, this is from Maison Mercier, okay, called Château Veroir. Uh, you just love it. It's not expensive. Amazing wine. I have this— I'm very close with Benjamin Husson and Ralph Mandet, so I love the Clos de Lune white. Pouilly-Fumé and Sancerre.

It's crazy.

Are the best. Yeah.

So you like white?

I like white.

Yeah.

I like white wine. I love red. If I say Smith-Olafé, these are the big names. Yeah, everyone likes it.

Yes.

I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of wine. So, but each wine has their own personality. It's like, I cannot say which, which, who is your favorite person in the world?

Yeah.

You have a bunch, like 5 or 10 friends that you love all of them. So, me and the wine, it's the same history. So, this was what we get for the Hague. What shall you get?

Yeah, the Silex. I was gonna ask you whether it was the Silex. That's really, that's awesome. What's your favorite pairing? I can't, you know, is there a pairing that you've done that you thought was just really awesome?

Okay.

I promise I'm almost out of questions.

No, no, no, it's okay. I have to say you something, to tell you something. I love experimenting.

Yeah, experimenting.

Just imagine you finish Tyrant sending like, I don't know, 100 covers. You are completely like exhausted, but your brain is still working and then your body is like go to sleep, but your brain is like, no, you have to do something. You are in the best shape because all the adrenaline is in your body, and then your brain want to— and then I arrive home, and then I start to make test, neomycin, bunch of alcohols, a bunch of spices, paprika, garlic, try garlic, black pepper, lime, lemon, orange, and then start to try this with this, this with this, this with this. And in the same spirit of tequila, I discover— I mean, for me, I get not related to wine. I get— I don't know if you know the rum Diplomatico. I get Diplomatico with black pepper. Black pepper is a thermogen. It's like heat your, your— and lime. So you have something that hits really, really hot.

And then what we call lemon, or what you call lime?

Lemon. Yes, what you call lemon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So all the aromas, all the flavors of the Diplomatico are gonna become deeper because of the black pepper. Black pepper is not just there to make like, oh, this spice is hot.

No, it's—

yes, why we drink wine when you are eating? That we have to understand why. Wine has alcohol and has flavor. So each time that you're eating your very big steak that is fatty with a very good sauce, and Demi-Glace, who has a lot of flavor and a lot of fat— fat doesn't go with water, so the flavor of the sauce is gonna stick in your mouth because of the fat. Because of the oil. So the only way to clean up your palate is with something that dilute— dilute— dilutes the fat.

And that's why these acidic wines are perfect.

Alcohol, acid. And then you clean up, you have a great bite of your steak. Mm, I like it. Deep in your sauce. And then you take a drop of your wine, good wine. Then your wine is going to bring more information, but at the same time it's going to clean up your palate. And then you are going to be ready to rediscover your meat. So the same meat is going to be just increasing on flavor, on textures, on, on, on experience. So all this association, this is It's not because it's fancy, we drink wine with food. It's because it's the whole ICA, the whole INIAN is to rediscover. You go back and forward, you rediscover your food and then you rediscover your wine. And then your brain is like tac tac tac tac tac tac tac tac. I was— I use always tac tac, chick-chack, chick-chack. On cooking, on cuisine, we use a lot of monoterms. I don't know how you say that. Uh, so the pairing I discovered, I say discovered, between the thermogenesis of the black pepper, the acidity of the lime or lemon, lemon, yep, and the flavor of the rum was just crazy.

Have you ever met Luis from Taco Luis?

It's my good friend Luis.

He's also one of my best friends. Really, what a tzaddik.

He is amazing.

What a tzaddik.

He is amazing. And the food is amazing.

I know.

First time, I'm not lying, the first place we're going to eat each time I come to Israel, Taco Luis. Yeah, it's good. Especially the tongue, the tongue tacos is very good, very good. Yeah, mucha tequila, a lot of tequila there.

He, he's the one who taught me about tequila, especially about, uh, real tequila. So, for Shia, what's your favorite wine? Now I'm putting you on the spot. Do you have a favorite?

You know, I was loving that you know, Sancerre for the grapefruit. And now I'm finding out that that's a pretty, uh, basic take.

No, it's not a basic take. Wait, wait, like the, uh, Pouilly-Fumé has also— it's got a smokiness to it, but it's also got, um, citrusy, uh, takes on it. There's, there's a number of wines that have that. But the reason—

because it's the easiest thing that you can identify, right? It's like, it's like it is nothing to do with this.

It's not— no, it's not bad about the wine. Yeah, but I'm, but I'm telling you, in that, in that old— in that experience, I remember tasting this wine and it was loquats and crazy oriental stuff. And I went, whoa, how can they put that in a wine? I mean, like, how could they— how could they create all of those memories and thoughts in my brain by just sipping this wine? It's like crazy. That's one of the things that food and wine both do. You taste them, and all of a sudden, if you know, you might remember where you tasted food like this the last time, and it could be half a world away. So it's like, it brings back, it's incredible. Smells and tastes just kick your brain into—

into a struggle to travel through time.

Yeah, totally, totally. Much more than words could ever do, even sounds could do. Those sounds work pretty well too, but yeah, certainly even much more than your eyes.

Wine touch those boxes that Jacob Ouriah was talking about. Yes.

Thank you. Thank you. I didn't, you know, I've taken a huge amount of your time, but I thank you very much for being on the Kosher Terroir, and I look forward to another episode.

100%.

I really look forward.

We really enjoy.

Okay.

The company, the wine. Pleasure. The ambience.

Pleasure, real pleasure. Shalom u'bracha.

Will you do a recap episode of your food tasting, your wine and food pairing?

I would love to. Why not? That's a great idea to do it there.

And listen, we're still, Sukkot is just beginning.

Yes.

We still have time to get some fun cooking and drinking.

That's true. That's true. Even today. Even today. I look forward.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Kosher Terroir. It was exciting and educational for me too. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes. Again, thank you for listening to The Kosher Terroir.