Jay Buchsbaum, The Five Cups And What To Pour

Welcome to The Kosher Teruah.

I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, no matter where you are, please take a moment to pray for the safe return home of all our soldiers, If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're relaxing at home, please open a delicious bottle of kosher wine and pour a glass, sit back and relax. Welcome back to the Kosher Terroir, and today we are tackling the biggest night of the year for kosher wine, the Passover Seder. Now, we all know the drill. 4 cups of wine, reclining to the left, and a whole lot of history. But what about if I told you there's a 5th cup that we need to be talking about? That's right. Today we are unlocking the mystery, the history, and the halachic debate behind the 5 cups of the Seder. And there is absolutely no one better on earth to guide us through this than my guest today. I am thrilled to welcome a true titan of the kosher wine industry, Jay Buchsbaum. As Director of Wine Education at Royal Wine Corporation, Jay has spent decades shaping how we understand, drink, and appreciate kosher wine. He's tasted it all. He's seen every trend, and today he is taking us on a cup-by-cup journey through the Seder. We're talking terroir, we're talking tradition, and we're talking about how to survive drinking all that wine without the dreaded Passover headache. Whether you're pouring a rare aged reserve or just trying to figure out what pairs best with haroset or maror, this episode is your ultimate guide Jay Buchbaum, welcome to the Kosher Terroir.

Thank you so much, my dear, dear, dear, close, wonderful friend.

A pleasure. It's a pleasure. Everyone knows about the 4 cups of wine at the Seder, but today we're going to talk about 5. For our listeners, Jay, who might be confused, can you unpack the history of the halachic debate surrounding the 5th cup?

Yes, it's quite a fascinating debate. Actually, it's a Talmudic debate. And the 4 cups represent the 4 times God, you know, uses different words for redemption.

Right.

And the 5th cup is a discussion in the Talmud, discussion in the Gemara regarding the word that is used to, and I will deliver you. So the 4 cups are for redemption and the 5th cup, you know, some of the opinions in the Gemara are that we should have a 5th cup because he also said, I'm gonna deliver you into the land. And that fifth cup, however, the Talmud ends with teku, which means it remains a question. And as a result, instead of having a fifth cup, well, some people actually do, and we actually do have a fifth cup in the kosher Eliyahu Hanavi, in the Eliyahu, the cup of Elijah, and that cup of Elijah, you know, some actually drink a fifth cup. I think the tradition though generally is not to drink a fifth cup, although that doesn't mean you shouldn't have more than one or two or three or four glasses during dinner. But, you know, a traditional or sacramental fifth cup is generally not done. But I think it's a beautiful concept. And I think, you know, there are opinions that ever since the establishment of the State of Israel, We have been delivered. And so therefore perhaps we should drink the fifth cup because that has come to pass as well. By the way, the reason I believe the reason why the Talmud says we may not have a fifth cup is because that deliverance had not taken place yet.

Right.

You know, so, so I, I'm, it's very exciting to actually explore that whole concept. I think Rabbi Sachs says, that we should not have a fifth cup, even though the Elijah does represent that, because it's something that we should think about the re— the ultimate redemption when we actually have the establishment of the Beit Hamikdash. And that's still yet to come. But it, it's a, it's actually a wonderful and fascinating— in fact, because you asked that question and I did a little research about it, I knew some of it, but I'm gonna actually bring that up at this week's, this week's, yes, this week's Seder.

Seder. Yeah. No, it's, it's actually, it's interesting. The reason they call it the cup of Eliyahu HaNavi is because of the teku, because the answers are going to come when Eliyahu HaNavi comes. So it's put off until the future. And one other thing that I want to mention is that the Hiddah basically says that This is a perfect thing that this is called the Eliyahu HaNavi's Kos, because his presence is at every Seder. And particularly it's appropriate because we're celebrating Passover as a celebration of the first redemption. And Eliyahu HaNavi heralds the final redemption. So, Baruch Hashem, we should be able to be zoher for that as well.

Oy vey, absolutely.

Alevai. Okay, please God. All right. When it comes to the, the Kosav Eliyahu, the fifth cup, do you see people tend to, you know, buy specific wines, perhaps higher end or unique bottles just for the ceremonial pour, or people just do whatever?

So I've heard, I've heard really there are two, generally there are two opinions that I've heard on this. One is that we should always try to, well, again, it's just, this is just kind of a social opinion. Has no, from what I understand, it has no basis in halacha or Jewish tradition, but we should try to pick an Israeli wine for the kosher Eliyahu. And the other tradition, and I, you know, perhaps this is Jay Buchsbaum saying it, but you know, I don't mind. I don't mind. Being transparent and telling you the truth, we generally don't do an expensive bottle, an expensive or high-end wine here because it doesn't get drunk.

Right.

So, you know, we would use something more, more pedestrian, if you will. Cool.

All right. All right. So the potential fifth cup of wine, but if I may. Yep. Go ahead. Go, please.

If I may, just for fun. Our tradition is someone always hits the table so that some of it comes off the top and we go, oh, you see, he's here. He's actually here.

Very cool. There are many rabbeim who actually sat at their seders and looked at the cup and they commented that they noticed that it went down a little bit, that Eliyahu had come to their seder to drink. Drink. So you're not, you're not wrong in doing that. That's like, it's a pretty comfortable thing.

It's also a beautiful lesson for the children. Meaning, of course, you know, ultimately they know, they will know the truth as they get older, but as young children, they don't forget it if, if that happens. Kind of like magical.

Yep.

100%. That's, that's part, it's supposed to be experiential. So it's right. Ruch Hashem, it's special.

Especially going along with opening the door.

Yep. So that's also part of it. And it's part of it that it not only provides a kosh for Eliyahu, but now there's a whole protection comment in that koshel Eliyahu, as far as that you open the door at a time when you're very vulnerable. And Kadosh Baruch Hu protects you. Eliyahu Hanavi protects you from that, from that situation. Yeah. Is there a Kos? Is there a specific bottle from Royal's portfolio that would capture that feeling of, of being redeemed? Redemption?

Yeah, I would say that, that there are many, but that's why Israel glass of wine or a cup of wine from Israel is more per, you know, is more appropriate because after all, that's where we were redeemed to. And that goes along with the fifth cup, that it is the fifth cup that tells you, and I'll take you to, so, you know, some really wonderful wines from in and around the Beit HaMikdash area. For example, Shiloh, And I say Shiloh not as a brand, as a place, you know, or the Hari Yehuda, which is also, you know, surrounds the Beit HaMikdash. And also even, you know, wines from the Golan or, you know, the Negev, all the places, especially the Negev where the Jews sojourned through. So, you know, you have Pinto wines from the Negev. Instead of telling you about one specific wine, I think the more we explore this and the more you ask me that question, the more I think that the correct wine to have is in fact an Israeli wine. 'Cause it not only speaks to the support of Israel, but it speaks to actually the story of the Exodus and the redemption.

Cool. All right. So let's get back to the basic Seder wines. And red wine is the tradition that, because it matches the, the blood, the remembrance of the blood in Egypt, but a lot of people can't handle heavy duty red wines. So is there a white or a rosé alternative that you'd suggest for people who struggle with heavy reds?

So I've been taught, and you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a disclaimer here. Ask your local rabbi about what I'm about to tell you. But I've been taught that if someone does not like red and prefers white, that's the wine he should have at the Seder.

It's more kashuv. It's more important.

It's more kashuv for him and it's more celebratory, celebratory wine. Wine to have. Now, some people say, again, ask your local rabbi. Some people say that's correct, but you should add a few drops of red wine to give it the color that, you know, alludes to the blood of the Israelites, you know, the blood that was put on the doorposts, et cetera.

Yeah.

But I would say if you really prefer a white wine, and certainly if heavy reds are too much for you and therefore the experience will not be pleasant, I would say ask your local rabbi, but you should defer to whites and lighter reds. Some lighter reds, and I've talked about this, I did it on my big reveal, Matzah Shabbos, last Matzah Shabbos. And that is I'm going to start the Seder with a lighter wine, probably a red, but perhaps a white, but certainly Or perhaps a rosé. There's several reasons for that. You're, you're starting the Seder on an empty stomach. So some of the rosés are wonderfully, still come from red grapes, so, and it has the red hue to it. So they're, they match the, the, the traditional, the traditional thing about red wines. And some of the rosés from Rubin are wonderful. I love A Shragai rosé from Gush Etzion. There's a great rosé from Har Bracha, from Tura, and even from the Golan Heights, from Matarg. But I love the new rosé, the reserve rosé from Herzog. There's a reserve rosé from Herzog that's really beautiful. But I'm telling you, this Pesach, again, I always tell people that My Seder wines are a game time decision. I'll go down to my cellar and you've been there. I go down to my cellar and see, hey, wait, you know, this is great. Or no, that's great. But I, I'm really tending towards a Burgundy, meaning a French Burgundy, which are all Pinot Noirs in the reds. And they're, they're elegant and still flavorful, but not as heavy. And so that's my, that's what I'm gonna tend to look for. I think that's what I'm gonna tend to look for in my cellar when I get, when I get to the Seder on Wednesday night.

So for me, you know, it's the vibe of that first cup is supposed to be bright and crisp and awakening. And I, I agree with you that I, I love pinots and either the Vidkin Pinot or the new Pinot are crazy. And, and Amichai, you know, hit it out of the, hit it out of the stadium with his new Pinot.

You know, and to his credit, and this is important for people to get the message about Amichai and Shilo, his credit, he's been trying, he's been making Pinot Noir for years, but he's never released it because he was never satisfied with it. And so it just shows you, yeah. And he's blended into other things as a result, but it just shows you his attention to detail and quality. So if he made a Pinot Noir, you know that, you know, he's finally made one that he's very happy with.

Yeah. Okay. Let's go to cup 2, which is part of the magid, part of the, the, the storytelling part of things. So what's your, what's your selection for the second cup?

So here, here's a, it's not only part of the storytelling, but it's also precursors. It's a precursor, excuse me, precursor to the foods, right? The food you're gonna eat. And it's gonna go into the food that you're gonna eat. So I'm gonna get a big, bold, rich, cuz the foods are gonna be flavorful and wonderful. I know Brenda and, and so it's gonna be amazing food. And you want something that, that is gonna be rich and flavorful and that will go with the, and we're gonna have probably 2 or 3, maybe even probably 2 or 3 different dishes for the main course. So you want something that's big, rich, and wonderful, but you also want something that will go with a wide variety of foods. We're also gonna have, unfortunately, fortunately my daughter-in-law who is allergic to sulfites is not gonna be here, but still in all, I'm gonna, I'm going to choose because we have other people that are sensitive, I'm pretty sure at the, at the Seder. And so we're gonna choose the belief Cabernet, which, which is awesome. You know, no sulfite added and also organic. And I'm probably gonna have a single vineyard from the Herzog, perhaps even a Yessod wine. There are very few of them around and it's not cheap, but man, if you're gonna pull out the stops, the Seder is the time to do that. Or perhaps something from Ericey-Sorrels North, maybe a Neuvay wine, or I always— there's one of the hidden gems is Carmel Limited. And I know I'm going all over the place, but these are some of the wines that I think will be really, you know, some of the wines you should be looking at. But yeah, get, get, get something rich, flavorful, wonderful, but also, especially if you're like me and you're having more than you know, just me and, and, you know, the wine geeks. Get something that'll be pleasantly tasty for a wide variety of people.

So because it's during the storytelling, I wanted to pick a couple of wines that you could tell stories about as part of, as part of that experience. So one of them was the Vidkin Shorashim, which is like the whole history of Vitkin. He only makes it when it's special vintages. And the other one is a crazy wine, which is a white wine by Yaakov Oria called Me. It's the multiple expressions. And it's like, it's made out of a Chardonnay in Israel. It's 13, 12 or 13 separate fermentations from the same grapes of the same vineyard, the same single vineyard. And he blends them. He produces them a certain way. All of them are different. And then he blends them to get a specific taste out of it that he wants. And it's almost like the thing, the only thing I have seen that's close to it is a white burgundy. It's a—

wow.

Absolutely spectacular, spectacular wine. And it's coming out of Israel and it's really special.

Simon, you think you can get me a bottle before Yom Tov? Yes.

Before Yom Tov, I don't think I can get you, but I can get you a bottle.

But I will tell you downstairs. I, I, it sounds exciting and I really, and you know me, I, I love whites and I, and I'm pretty sure I'll have a white. There's a really great Chalk Hill Chardonnay. And by the way, reason I'm, I'm looking at Herzog along is also along the lines of a journey. Now remember the, the, the Herzog journey. Is a long and illustrious and very complex one. I mean, they started making wine in Czechoslovakia almost 100 years, more than 100 years ago. Yeah. And they journeyed to United States where they started making traditional sacramental wines, and then they journeyed across the United States to start making some blends in other people's wineries in California. And then they finally made their own wine. I'm sorry, built their own winery and make, and are, making really wonderful wine. So the story of redemption and the story of the Magid and the journey is quite an interesting story for the Herzog family as well.

Baruch Hashem. So speaking of redemption, let's talk about the third cup, which is really the cup of redemption. So what do you think about the third cup?

Oh, my gosh. Probably one of the first wines that was brought to the United States. I'll give you one from Israel and one from the United States.

Okay.

One of the first wines that was brought to the United States that kind of redeemed, if you will, the kosher wine business, and also very early on was also a fantastic bottle of wine. And that is Château Giscourt.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, there were, there was some Bordeaux that were brought to, you know, brought in, in the '70s, but it was in the late, in the, in the early '80s that Château Giscours was brought to the United States. And from Israel, especially from Carmel, and everybody still talks about it, made by Yisroel Flam in 1976, was the first really wonderful Cabernet That came from Carmel.

We opened a bottle of that together.

That's right.

And, and it was the only good bottle in that case because it was from, we drank it, I don't know how many years ago, but it was, it was, it was certainly very old, the '76, but it was there. It was cool.

We drank it probably in the early 2000s.

Yeah.

And it was already 30 years old or something like that.

Right.

And the mid to early 2000s. And you know what? It, it, we still, it was still okay. It was still okay. Yeah.

It was still great, but it was the only bottle of that case that was so, it was great.

Insane.

It was a wonderful bottle.

Right. And Yisroel Flam redeemed, so to speak, the Israeli wine industry by coming up with this really wonderful bottle of wine after, after many, many years of sacramental basic wine being made in Israel. Now, of course, so many, wineries and so much have been done since then.

Yeah.

And again, when the Herzogs brought in that first Bordeaux in the '70s, but then later on the really great one from Giscourt, I think maybe I'll choose one of the Carmel wines, one of the better Carmel wines, maybe the Limited, which is a hidden gem from them. Or maybe an old Giscourt if I can find one in my cellar that's in its 25th or, you know, 20-some-odd years. Not sure I have any like that, but I'm gonna look for it. Cool.

So for me, because it's redemption, I wanted to stay Israeli with it. So there's two wines that I suggest. Shivi Drori's Giv'ot Batuni, which is an indigenous grape in, in Israel. And I thought it was, you know, it, it's actually kind of almost like a Pinot. When you taste it, it's kind of amazingly like a Pinot. And the other one is Avi Feldstein with his Debuki, one of the first Debukis that came out. Both of them are indigenous to Israel, and both of them, I think, are like symbols of that redemption. So that's just—

You know, I'm glad you picked the Debuki, especially from Feldstein, because, you know, Dabuki has become a hot topic in the last 7 or 8 years. Started about only about 7 or 8 years ago that the first dabukis came out. And since then, and a lot of them were just okay, not great. But Abhi's dabuki is great.

Great.

'Cause they're just discovering and, you know, exploring how to do the best kind of dabuki or, or how to, produced Tabuki in the best possible, and he's done a great job. Don Blaine.

He's a magician. Absolutely.

And in some ways he's redeemed, therefore, again, he's redeemed the varietal by making a great Tabuki instead of just an okay one.

Great. Okay. Onward and upward. Let's go to the fourth cup, and that's the cup of Hallel, praise or what have you. And what do you think about Hallel?

So I've got two, I've got two wines or two categories, and I'll mention specific wines within them. Two categories that I really like for the fourth cup and that I'm intending, again, it's gonna be a game time decision, but then I'm intending to, to imbibe. One is the category of sweet. And I can't think of a better sweet category. Wine than Sauternes from France.

Mm-hmm.

But there are so many— Oregon News has a, a great sweet reds and what do you call it? Mountain from the Golan has really some great sweet reds. So there are so many. Fortes is a great sweet red. And then, but, and I mentioned this Saturday night, there's a great red if you're sticking to red. The Sauternes, of course, are white. But if you're sticking to reds, there's a great sweet red from Portugal.

Yeah.

Porto Cordovara. But the other category, and Joseph Mutti, California Herzog, talks about this all the time, and this is celebration. You know, you're really celebrating the Seder and moving forward. You know, in— I say this, I heard this from my uncle, Oliver Shalom. In Jewish life, we say mazel tov when we reach a really good part of something happening in our lives. We say mazel tov. The Gentiles say congratulations, right? What is the difference? Congratulations always indicates congratulations on arrival, on a job well done, on arriving to this point. Mazel tov means good luck. We don't say congratulations. It's always good luck for the future. It's great that you came to this point, but we're looking for Mazel Tov, good luck for the future. And so the second category that I'm picking is sparkling wine, a celebration of what's to come. Here's to what's to come. Let's toast to what's to come. And if you're sensitive to the red, I would suggest that you get the Rothschild has a beautiful rosé champagne, champagne rosé, blanc de noirs, and Herzog has a blanc de noirs, that's a champagne noir. And I think those could be really great ways to end the Seder. But if you want to end on a sweet note, get something that's sweet from the sweet category. And I mentioned the Bundt earlier.

So I mirror you in that for that last cup, I'm, I'm looking for bubbly and preferably a rosé bubbly, something like the new Raziel or the Ardennes.

Yeah. Both of them are really, really high quality, high-end wines. And then once again, just like I said about the Yassot earlier in the, in this podcast, you know, now's the time to pull out the stops. You know, spend, you spent $30, $40 on a pound of matzah. Spend the money on, you know, on the, spend the money on the wine if it suits you and if it's something that, you know, is gonna enhance your Seder.

So we talked about the cup of Eliyahu, and I think you made some suggestions for that. I didn't state what mine were. But I was thinking, because the Cup of Eliyahu is kind of focused on the future. And so the two things that I was thinking of for that was, because they're both rich reds, was the new Flam, Evan Sapir, is unbelievable. It's, it's, it's brand new. It's so young. It's, it, it's not supposed to be as good as it is. And it's, it's approachable and it's just lovely and it's very, very elegant.

Yeah. It's so, it's so wonderful that you mentioned that because not only is it new, but they've renewed, right? An entire area. It's a brand new vineyard from nothing. It's not like it's been around forever. That vineyard is only 7 years old or something like that.

Yep. And that vineyard is one of the hottest, hottest areas in Israel now to grow grapes. Just so that you know, Evan's up here. It's crazy. So, so there you go.

I mean, you're talking about renewal and you're talking about looking forward and looking ahead. Can't think of a more pro— and I was the one who said early on that for the kosher, the Elijah cup, it should definitely— not definitely— Israel is the right way to go. Yeah.

Yeah. I've got a crazy question for you.

Sure.

About food pairings. So what would you theoretically pair with Maror?

That's a great question. And I thought about it a lot and there's, I'm gonna take two different countries, one Israel and one America. And I think you'll, I hope you'll appreciate my choices here. It either should be a late har— I'm sorry, a, a old vine Zinfandel. Yep. Wow. Yes. Or a rich and spicy Syrah from Israel. Cool.

Yeah.

'Cause you have, you have the nuts and you have the wine and you have the, you know, even though you shake it off and the reason you shake it off is 'cause you don't want it to cover up the matzah flavor, but it, it has all of those aspects of it, you know, that richness to it. Now you can drink that. As much as you shake it off at the Seder, the next day, I know actually people who eat maror. In fact, yeah, I heard from my mechuten, Chaim Gelerner, that the next day for lunch, you're supposed to eat maror. You're supposed to eat, I'm sorry, the charosas, not the maror. Charosas.

Charosas. Yeah.

Yeah. I never knew that before. It's actually a Gemara, I understand. There is a tradition.

Charosas.

Yeah, there you go. I never did. We used it for the Seder, shook it off, and it went, you know, by the way, by the wayside, so to speak. But I think it's a great idea. So pull out a, a great Israeli Syrah or an old vine Zinfandel, and I think you'll really enjoy it. Okay.

I wanna take a, a specific challenging question because I know that you are, you are You're— you think about it a lot. Drinking 4 or 5 cups of wine is a serious physical feat. As a wine educator, what is your practical advice on alcohol by volume, ABV, and pacing and avoiding the dreaded Passover wine headaches? But also, some people really get into a bad situation because they drink so much wine.

Okay, so first of all, the halacha Again, it's not for him. I'm going to tell you in advance, ask your local rabbi. But from what I understand, the halacha is that you need to drink a revius. Some people say that you should finish the first kos, but that's more, from what I understand, it's more of a tradition than halacha. But certainly revius is enough. And according to Rav Moshe, that's 2.4 ounces. Okay. So, you know, keep that in mind when you're drinking through your Seder meal. Second, you, you know, the Seder meal's gonna happen over a 2 to 3, some people have a 5-hour course of, of Seder. And so drink slowly throughout.

You have time.

And so the first glass, if you have an, a lower ABV, especially on an empty stomach, that makes the most sense. Rosés are in that area, usually Pinot Noirs, and certainly Burgundies, French Burgundies are in that area. And now there are wineries in Israel that are focused on that, in that area. So I would really focus on a lower ABV, alcohol by volume, on the first cup. On the second cup is going into the meal. The, the addition of food actually helps digestion, higher alcohol. Still, you don't wanna, you don't wanna blow your brains out with a ridiculously 16% alcohol wine. So look for something rich and flavorful, but try to keep it in the 14 to 15 range rather than in the 15 to 16, which many wines because of global warming. And, and you might get into that a little bit later, are getting into these days. And, and again, go back to a, a lighter wine for the third course and try to stick to Rove Coast for the third and fourth course instead of finishing your glasses. So that's my, that's my suggestion. There's no rush. You're not going anywhere. You know, you're sleeping it off. There's no work the next day. There's no emails. There's no, so, you know, Take your time at Seder. And the longer you take your time at the Seder, the more the wine will be digested over time.

Sweet versus dry.

Any— I'm a dry wine drinker except for the last Kose when you might want to end, you know, on a sweet note as kind of, you know, people talk about, just to give you an idea what I mean by end on a sweet note, people eat, well, actually they use this for Rosh Hashanah, but you know, let the wine kind of influence, like you've done all this podcast, the wine influence the journey. And so that's why I like to end on a sweet note because it's, it's, it's just a memory of, of, you know, sweeter things that have happened and sweeter things to come. But for the meal, you know, if you're gonna have, unless you're having something really sweet, as a main course, I suggest you stick to drier wine. Fruity perhaps, but drier.

Mavouschel wines. Anything you wanna say about Mavouschel?

Yeah. If you're gonna have, like, I will, you know, a, a great diversity of people. Yeah. I think you should have a, a mix of both, but certainly Mavouschel wines, especially today. Listen, there are non-kosher wineries.

Yeah.

And the wine is not kosher. So I don't want to give anybody the impression that just because it's mevushal, it can be kosher. There are non-kosher French and, and American and other wineries throughout the really great wine growing regions that are mevushaling their wines. Yeah. The mevushal process, especially with flesh de tante, and I, and I'm sure you're gonna You're gonna touch on that, but also even regular, you know, old-time mevusheling has got it down to a real science where the wine is not harmed in the traditional way as it has been in the past. So don't be afraid of mevushel wines. But if you insist on non-mevushel wines from halach— from, and some people halachically say that's better. Yeah. Then, you know, You know, I think, I think a blend of both babushka and non-babushkas is a, is a really great way to go. Okay.

All right. I want to get into a little bit, since you're in the center of Royal Wine, let's talk a little bit about what your few months have been leading up to Pesach. Royal Wine is kind of the backbone of the kosher wine industry from an insider's perspective. What does it actually take to prepare for the massive logistical hurdle of Pesach globally?

I mean, not to dirty the waters at all, but this is Pesach to kosher wine is the O-N-D, October, November, December, where all the non-Jewish holidays take place for the rest of the wine business. So, you know, there's a guesstimate that that 40% of our business, kosher wine business, is actually drunk or done or sold and purchased during these first 3 months going in, or first 4 months when Pesach is late in April. So we just gotta make sure that we have the stock. And with what's going on in Eretz Yisroel, in fact, all over the world, shipping and so on, we have to be ever more vigilant, making sure that we have the wine that we need way in advance of when, of when the holidays and this and the selling season takes place. And also the variety, because one of the trends, perhaps the biggest trend still is, is, is the consumer walks in to the fine wine kosher retailer and says, okay, what's new? What's great? What can I experiment with? What, what haven't I had so far, Mr. Retailer, who knows me well?

Isn't that a change from what it was like 8 years ago or 5 years ago, what have you?

Really? It's been a change from what it was 20 years ago.

Okay.

But no, but this, this idea that people want something new and also there has been a change this year from prior years. People are being a little bit more careful with their pocketbook, even if they have the money. And it's because, I think it's because the mood, especially because of what's happening to our brethren in Eretz Yisroel, you know, the mood is not as expansive and as happy as it was. And so, you know what, I want something new and fresh and interesting and different. But, you know, I'm being not, I'm not in as celebratory a mood as I used to be in years past.

How about climate? Has climate affected, affected the region's royal sources from, and is the weather pattern shifting, changing the style of typical Passover Cabernets or what they're drinking, what people are drinking?

Yeah, definitely. But I, I see something afoot, so to speak. I see something afoot that's really interesting and, and I think people are not talking about it, so I'm gonna talk about it. There's no doubt that global warming, no matter how you think it, it's occurring, whether it's human or, or natural, whatever, is causing your sugars in grapes to be higher than they ever were, especially, you know, in wine grapes. At harvest or at full maturity. As a result, your alcohol's gonna be higher and your opulence is gonna be greater. And sometimes that means the wines are richer and fuller and more flavorful and more wonderful than ever. But there is, and this is, and so this has been going on already for half a dozen years. And, but there is a, a lot of of vineyard management and vineyard growing that has been mitigating that by shade, by new clones, by different wine grapes that are being grown that have a tendency to mature with less sugars, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that what you're gonna see is you're gonna see a return to that. And in a more, even a more aggressive posture. And I hope that, you know, by me talking about it, you'll see more wineries taking on that mantle of mitigating the effects of too big a wine. I love big wines. Don't misunderstand me, but you know, when it gets too big and it gets into the 15, 16 natural percentile, we're not talking about adding alcohol like they do with Ports. I think it, it gets, it gets away from you. But, and, but I, I think it's, I think it's a natural phenomenon right now. You have a lot of higher alcohol, even from places like France and Italy and, and not so much Spain, but France and Italy where it's cooler. Even those wines are tending to be higher in alcohol than they used to be. Okay.

All right. So you've tasted thousands of kosher wines over your career. Are there any hidden gems at Royal's portfolio right now that you think are absolutely perfect for this year's Seder but fly completely underneath the radar?

Brand new wine. I've been crowing about this since I tasted it, which was only about 6 months ago, is a new Alexander Valley Merlot. Okay.

Wow.

In years, everybody's, and one of my favorites has been Alexander Valley Cabernet.

Right.

But the Alexander Valley Merlot immediately upon release was round and rich and flavorful without being aggressively opulent. But also, and this was the wonderful part about that too, it had a texture that I thought was just wonderfully mouth-filling. So Alexander Valley Merlot. And, and it's a great Seder wine too, if you think about it, because of all the things we just said. So that's one. Another hidden gem, I mentioned this earlier from Eretz Yisroel, is Carmel Limited. Always been a hidden gem, and that's been around for years and years. And people talk about lots of other, you know, great wines from great wineries that are truly outstanding, but not, but not under the radar. If you wanna look for a wine that's under the radar, that's in that strata of those big, beautiful, well-known gems, this is one of them. And then there's some really wonderful people who are looking for entry-level wines. I love the, a lot of the Teppeberg entry-level, you know, simple Cabernet Chardonnays really made well by Shiki Rauschenberg, guy who studied in, in UC Davis. That's where he got his wine degree. but is 100% Israeli. And also the simple Baron Herzog and the lineage wines are in the $15 to $25 range that come from estate vineyards, which even by non-kosher California standards is tremendous, tremendous QPR, quality price, quality price ratio bargain. Not just good pricing, but a bargain. Had really good bottle of wine. So if you're having a large group and/or your, your budget demands that you don't spend 50, 60, 80, or 100,000 on a bottle of wine, those are really go-to wines, you know, and, and there are a lot of entry-level wines from Israel as well as these wines from California that are just great in that, for that, that category.

You know, one of the ones I would put in that is Alicia Wills Belief. Where it's like, it's so, people think of it as, yeah, that's for people who are like eco-friendly thing. I don't know if I like that sort of wine, but they're, they're wonderful. It's a wonderful wine. It's just delicious.

Not only that, you know that recently it's gotten on with several different publications, not Jewish, it's gotten in the mid-90s. This is a wine, it's organic and wine, you know, no sulfites added. You'd think that, oh, that's for the, you know, the weirdos. It's not, the wine is for the tree huggers.

It's for the tree huggers.

Yeah. Alicia's great. She's done a great job with that.

She's unbelievable. The other one that's crazy that I've been tasting, I tasted recently, and to be quite honest, I really was not a fan of, was in Castel, their Lévis wines. Their new white and red Lévis are really special. Anybody who tasted those in the past and decided this is not for me, guess what? It, they're, they're wonderful wines now. They're really special.

So, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that 'cause La Vie, when it first came out, was also a lot less expensive. And as time has gone on, as the, the shekel has gotten stronger and costs of goods have gotten higher, it's, it's grown in, in, in price. But it's also, and this is classic Eli Ben-Zaken, it's also reached much higher quality levels. And so you're right about that.

100%. 100%. Okay. You mentioned the Buchsbaum. I've got only two more questions for you and I'll let you go. The Buchsbaum table. We know, what does your table look like in the Buchsbaum household? Are you pulling out rare dusty library vintages? Are you keeping it surprisingly simple or? You mentioned a little bit about it, but tell us a little bit about this year of Virtue Wine Arts and what you did last year.

We only have, you know, anybody who stays, you know, and we've lots of guests, thank God. Anybody who comes and stays in our house, there's only one rule, only one rule in my house. You gotta have fun. If you're not having fun, you don't belong here. Okay. So we're gonna have fun with the wine. It's not gonna be heavy and serious. For those people who have fun by having a heavy and serious wine, we'll pull out a bottle of wine for them. Those people who want their Moscato, I better get some because I don't have any at home. We're gonna have some for them too. And for the kids, we're gonna have the sparkling grape juice.

Right.

So everybody is, is welcome to come and, you know, friend that bought all kinds of little frogs and little grasshoppers and all kinds of stuff. And we're just looking forward to having a fun time. I'm going to bring some wine geeks down to the cellar. They're going to have fun going through it before we sit down for the Seder. So the answer to your question is it's going to be all over the place, hopefully, and in an effort to just make everybody Have fun and be happy.

Okay. So looking ahead, what's the next big frontier for kosher wines that Royal is exploring? And what should we be looking for out by next Pesach?

There's two big frontiers for Royal Wine. If it's, if you're talking about only the kosher consumer, it's gonna be to make to get to that 100-point score wine, right? From California or elsewhere, but certainly from California and from, and from elsewhere in the world. It's getting, it's going to be to get one of the real iconic brands. And I hesitate to mention their names to actually agree to make a kosher cuvée. So that's for the kosher consumer. I think, I think hopefully we'll reach that before the end of, you know, before we have Seder 2027. But the other area for kosher wine, and it's already happening, but I think hopefully it's gonna happen in a much bigger way within the next year. And that is for kosher wine to be accepted by the non-kosher consumer as being that, hey, they're finally making good kosher wine, but hey, I'm gonna gravitate to the kosher wine cuz they're the ones that are getting and making the best Californias, the best Israelis, the best Cabernet, the best Merlot, the best, et cetera. So that, that's really the two challenges and we're working towards that. And it's not just us, our competitors are working towards that too. And bless their, bless them. We, we support their efforts and we hope they beat us to the punch or they, you know, they get there with us. Because that's really where the two frontiers are. Making a kosher cuvée that is a 100-point wine, an iconic cuvée that heretofore has not agreed to make one, and getting the non-kosher consumer to recognize kosher as being a step, not equal to, but better than their non-kosher counterparts.

Jay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on the Kosher Terroir with me. I wish you a hug, kasher v'sameach, to you, your whole family, especially Brenda, and especially my wine partner. And you can wish her from me too.

I sure will. That's Grandma. 90, gonna be 99, God willing, in April. She's still got all her marbles. She's a little bit shaky and walking and whatever, but Simon's been a drinking buddy of ours going back, I don't know, half a dozen years or more. Right. So we'll look forward to that one day soon.

Please God. And also to the people at Royal, please regards to, you know, to everybody, everybody there. I, I'm, I really appreciate you guys.

You're amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for what you do. The Kosher Terroir is, is not one of those Facebook, Instagram. It's much more in depth and much more interesting than any of those short-term the short-term things that even I do, you know, like the, the, the, you know, the 3-minute to 4-minute big reveals, this stuff, if you guys out there, and I, I really, I wish I listened to all of it more often every, every week. It's really been a wonderful addition, especially to those people who really love wine and, and really want to get an in-depth view of it. So, you know, kudos to you and to what you're doing. This is really wonderful stuff.

Thank you, Jay. I really look forward to giving you a hug. All right?

Love you guys.

See you. Shalom u'vratz. Hakashivus ame'ah.

Hakashivus ame'ah.

This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of The Kosher Teruah. Please subscribe via your podcast provider. To be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.