Or Nidbach: Exploring Israeli Winemaking with Elegance and Sustainability at Tabor Winery

Welcome to The Kosher Teruah.

I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome back to another episode of The Kosher Terroir, where we uncork the stories behind the wines, the winemakers, and the magic of kosher winemaking from around the globe. Today, we're thrilled to bring you an exclusive conversation with Ornit Bach, the head winemaker of renowned Tabor Winery. Crafting wines from across Israel's varied terroir, to launching the premium artisanal wine brand, Or's vision is reshaping the landscape of Israeli wine one vintage at a time. We'll dive into his journey from vineyard to barrel and get an inside scoop on new, yet to be revealed wines that promise to push the boundaries of winemaking excellence. But that's not all. If you're a loyal listener, Now is the perfect time to revisit our treasure trove of episodes where we've been telling the stories that shape the world of kosher wine, and there's so much more to explore. So if you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're at home relaxing, please pour yourself a wonderful glass of kosher wine, settle back, and get ready to savor this rich flavorful episode with Ornid Bach right here on The Kosher Terroir. Let's raise a glass to discovering what's next in the world of wine.

Cheers. So, welcome to The Kosher Terroir. First of all, I have a few questions. Sure. And can you share your journey into winemaking and what led you here to, to Taborek?

All right. My journey in wines Started maybe something like 20, 21 years ago. I was finishing after the army. I went traveling all over the world, not concerned about wine yet. When I got back to Israel, I started to think about my future, what I'm going to do, and I started working as a bartender. And in this specific restaurant, the owner was a wine lover. And he brought a lot of winemakers from all over Israel to explain about the wines for the waiters and bartenders. And when I started hearing about what's going on about wine, the vineyards, the passion, I got into it. I got the bug. And then I started to find out what I need to do in order to to do wine professionally or to be in this kind of business, the business of wine. And most people told me, the winemakers that I met, they told me you should go to UC Davis and learn about wine. And then I started my journey. I did my bachelor degree in Israel in the Hebrew University in agriculture. And then my, and then When I graduated from my bachelor, I asked myself, maybe I need to work a little bit with wine because I was— I never worked with wine to understand if this is what I want to do practically. So I started looking for wine jobs and I found one here. Apparently, the Assisi winemaker was working here, he went to study abroad and they looked for someone to take care of the lad and stuff like that. So I came along. It was 2010 and I started working here. I did it for 2 years, 2 vintages, and I found out that I like it.

You caught the bug.

Yeah, I caught the bug big time. And then I started, I applied to UC Davis and I went there for doing my master's, 2 years. And I took my wife, I was married at the time already. And I actually was planning to stay in Napa. I mean, I wanted to work for a while at least in Napa. Um, but then they called me from here. They told me, um, there's a winemaker job for you if you want it. And, uh, it's not easy to find a job in Israel, a winemaker job, because there's not so many large wineries that looking for professional winemakers. So I did it. I came back. Um, and since 2014, I'm a winemaker here. And last year I was, I got the job to be the head winemaker in Tabo.

Who was the one who was here before? Who was the head winemaker?

Ariane Escher was the head winemaker and is still here, is advising. He actually established the winery along with the Sella family 25 years ago, 26 years ago. So he's got a lot of— I mean, he did everything here. Yeah. Baruch Hashem.

That's awesome. The winery just recently launched this artisanal premium wines brand. What inspired this and what can consumers expect of these wines in the future?

So as along with my— me getting the head winemaker job, we wanted to change some of the the wines give me to put my philosophy into the new wines. So— Your window print, my favorite.

Which is actually on the logo, which is amazing. It's very cool.

It is. So, we did the new Artisanal series. That's my wines. So I didn't change all the wines or at least didn't, you know, break it and rebuild build it. I just looked for, you know, some places I needed only a little touch, and some wines are new completely. And some wine we change, I think, drastically in order to, to me, believing in the wines, in the new wines. And I encourage people to taste because I think we did a lot of nice things, different things. It also, it's a change, but it will take a few years. I mean, it's wine. The change in the vineyards and new plantings and everything, it will take at least 5 years to completely be my philosophy and change. So, um.

What are some of the things about the the changes in your philosophy, specifically your philosophy?

So I believe in very drinkable wines, very elegant, you know, that not so powerful, like you will get usually in the Israeli market, very powerful wines because we are a warm climate region and people tend to take the ripening to very high degrees of sugar. And it's not easy not to do it because you want the specific ripening and it's hard because it's so warm, you get sugar very high, acid very low, and the phenolic, the taste, the flavors is going slowly, slowly. So sometimes you'll get it not together, not parallel as you wish. So we need to change sometimes the varieties. I prefer not to do everything with Cabernet Sauvignon. I prefer going into, I think, more Mediterranean varieties like Syrah or Durif, or even Grenache that we don't have yet, or Marselan, which is beautiful Mediterranean variety that you can bring your wines to be more soft and elegant and more easy to drink. Uh, not all wine should be— you should wait 10 years in order to drink them. Um, so that's in a nutshell my philosophy.

Cool. You have these, you have these categories: Element, Creation, Desire, Series, the different series. Um, is there— what's different in terms of, uh, each of those styles and what's the target audience for each one of them?

Elements is the entry series to the premium. That's how I see it. So it's all the wine are varietals. We want people to understand the different varietals, give them the specific characters for each variety. So in the whites, for example, we have the Sauvignon Blanc and we have Chardonnay and Gewürztraminer and Chenin Blanc and Roussanne. And also our rosé. And the wines are very, very accessible. All the whites, except for very, very small amounts of oak Chardonnay in the Chardonnay, but it's small percentage. All the whites are unoaked completely. So you should get the message of the character of the variety. Yes. And the reds are oaked for 12 months, and they are the— what we call the mid-premium. So, you know, the people, when they're getting into wines, usually they're starting with the unoaked wine reds, maybe for, I don't know, 30 shekels on the shelf. So this is a step up. Here you get some more complexity. Still, the wines shouldn't be so aggressive and powerful. But more complexity, a little bit of oak, spice, and— but still varietals. That's the element. Creation is a step up. The wines also, most of them varietals, but we also have two blends. But this is— most of the wine here are single vineyards. So this is our best vineyards all over Israel. So we have there a Chardonnay from the Golan Heights and a Tannat from the Golan Heights and a Viognier.

Tannat is interesting. How is that doing? Is that—

Tannat is very interesting, yeah, because it's a very unique variety.

You guys are the only ones or one of the only ones who are making a Tannat at the moment.

So we were the first. Yeah. And still, I agree, I don't know of so many that did a variety settle Tanat. I know some people does— in a blend— do have it. I know Eran Goldwasser in Yatir, he carry Tanat. I think he used in a blend. It's a very unique variety because it's very strong. It can grow like a beast, grow everywhere, give you high yields. And it also, because of very thick skin of the berries, is very It can hold, I mean, it doesn't get any diseases or sunburn and stuff like that. On the other hand, if you want to do it, take it to premium, you need to do a lot of thinning throughout the year because it can give you high yields like 3 tons per dunam and something like that. So we do a lot of thinning. And also in the winery, because of the thick skin, you get a lot of extraction, a lot of phenolics, a lot of tannins, sometimes too much. So in order to control it, we taste it throughout the fermentation, the alcoholic fermentation, very often. I mean, sometimes 3 times a day in order to get a specific point that it's not too much extraction. And if it is, we separate the skins right away in order to get the Tannat character, but not— but drinkable. Yeah. Which is not easy because if you taste the Madiran, the French Tannat, sometimes it's in need of 10 to 20 years in order to, you know, be drinkable. So yeah, it's a very interesting variety. It's not easy, but it's— that's the fun of it.

Especially when you're making it as a single varietal rather than as a blend, because it really doesn't leave you much room to play.

You've got to— It's a single varietal and it's a single vineyard also. So yeah, it doesn't let you a lot of room to play. That's us need to be very, very hands-on in the vineyards. And we have a very good viticulturist, Barak, which is every week in every vineyard all over Israel. And we have a lot of vineyards all over the country. And he gives specific instructions to the growers, what to do, how to irrigate, when to thin, when to— like now we are doing all the pruning. And it's very important if you want it to be, you know, high-end single vineyard. So, yeah, Tannat is very, very interesting and we are still learning.

We're tasting some wine as well this morning. So thank you.

Sure. It's amazing. So, yeah.

Tell me a little bit about this.

So this is our Sauvignon Blanc on the Elements level. It's one of our best-known wines. It's actually a blend of Sauvignon Blanc from the Golan Heights and from Syrin and Kfar Tavah here. So, also Sauvignon Blanc, what I'm aiming here is to give you a very aromatic wine, as it should, on the harder end, but not too much. I don't like the New Zealand style, when it's on steroids, it's too much. It's too juicy for it. Yes. So I like to be on, muted a little bit, but still aromatic, very crispy and mineral, like Sauvignon Blanc should be. And, and this is the 2024 vintage, and I think, It is a very good year, one of the best.

Spada! It's got beautiful citrus aromas. It's got great citrus flavors and, um, it's got acid. It's just nicely balanced.

Yeah.

So, um, like I said, even though it's on the Elements level, uh, I think of it as one of our, uh, flagship wines because, uh, we, we are very known for Sauvignon Blanc. And I feel that I need to deliver every year one of the best in the country. So, this is what we're trying to do.

Very interesting.

Very good.

Thank you. Continue on the scale. What's after Creation?

So, yeah, Creation is Singer Vineyards all over the country. And the whites over there, usually most of them, no, all of them. Are oaked or fermented in oak. Uh, we do a lot of soulie and bétonnage. Uh, we have a specific barrel room only for whites, um, in the winery.

Because of temperature?

Yes. Okay. Because, uh, unlike the reds, most of the whites are fermented, alcoholic fermentation in, in the barrels. And you got a lot of heat generated inside. You need to, uh, control it. So we have specific rooms only for whites in order to control the temperature of fermentation.

Are those the huge barrels?

At the moment we are using 225, like the regular, the brick, 300 and 500 liters for the whites. Not more than that, even though I would like to try higher, bigger formats of barrels for whites. We believe a lot in whites in the winery. We invest a lot in technology and in the vineyards. We actually produce more whites than red. At the moment, we are 55% white in the winery. So we are very— we believe in whites. I think the people in Israel should drink more whites. Yeah.

It's a warm climate.

Yeah.

It's drinking something like this, this Sauvignon Blanc is Just perfect.

I agree. Just, I agree. So, uh, Creation, uh, so after Creation, we have the Desire, uh, series that at the moment we have only one wine. Um, but, uh, there are a few will come in the future. Uh, it's a single vineyard, uh, a single variety wines. Uh, at the moment, the only one we have is a Cabernet Sauvignon single vineyard from the Malkia Mountain, which is just amazing. So the wines in Desire should be very high-end wines, all of them. And in order to get there, you need them to be— I mean, you don't just select your best vineyards. You need to be, you know, spot on because the competition is very good. Other wineries does very, very good job and we need to be on the same level at least. So in desire, we should have more varieties probably in the next 2, 3 years. What type of varieties are you looking for? So I believe in Syrah. Syrah should be there. Cabernet Franc should be there. Those varieties I think can give you a complexity. But also are better for this climate. Because Cabernet Franc, you can get to the right ripening pretty early. Not like Cabernet Sauvignon that usually you need to take it to ripening in high brix. In Cabernet Franc, you can do it probably a bit earlier, and that's very good, I think, for my philosophy in wine. Uh, so yeah, Syrah, Petit Syrah, uh, maybe, maybe, uh, maybe in the future, uh, flagship wine will be, uh, a blend. Um, but, uh, in desire at the moment, uh, those are the varieties that I'm aiming for.

Sustainability is a key focus in many wineries. Um, being ecological and sustainable. What's the commitment here? I'm gonna say it, Tabour Winery. I know you branded this Artisanal. Were you changing the name of the winery?

No.

Okay. So it's just, it's the—

It's just a brand.

It's just a brand.

Yes. What we did, actually, in the rebranding is separating the premium wines from the the regular wines. So the regular wines, uh, called Tavour. Yeah. And the premium called Artisanal. So it's a house of two brands, but the, the winery is Tavour. Okay. This doesn't change. We are very proud, you know, winery there. Um, we are not changing the name. Um, so sustainability. So, uh, as you know, or maybe not, uh, the former brand was actually everything about sustainability. It was the owl, the barn owl, which is one of the best ecological predators. And we did a revolution. It was almost 15 years ago that we changed all of vineyards into sustainable ecological vineyard. Not spraying, removing fences, let animals go and go out the vineyards. Growing cover crops all over. And everything was, we are, was aiming to do less spraying, less tractors goes in and out. And because we believe this is the way to give our vineyards longer years because, you know, in Israel, usually we are replacing vineyards after like 20 years, which is very young vineyards. So if you wanted to, um, go to, uh, older vineyards that can give you more complexity, uh, we thought the way is to do, uh, to go to sustainable, uh, let the vineyards, um, let nature help the vineyards protect itself and you don't need to spray all the time and, uh, stuff like that. So, uh, so yeah, we invest a lot in, in sustainability.

Uh, still, you talked a little bit about it, but the artisanal brand emphasizes the winemaker's fingerprint. Um, how do you balance the traditional winemaking techniques with modern innovations and still leave your mark on the, on the wine?

Well, I think it's easy. I mean, um, I, uh, I have my philosophy, I, uh, which I I'm still learning. I hope to learn, uh, I mean, all the time and not stop. And I'm, every year I'm going at least to one different, uh, um, region in the world, wine region. And every winery I get to, I learn something, even if it's the smallest winery or the biggest, you learn something and change your, uh, it's not changing your philosophy or what you believe, but it changed the way you get to the specific wine that you are aiming for. And wine, the wine industry is not a high-tech. So yeah, there are some modern, uh, um, technologies we'll call it, but basically they're doing the same things that people done like 100 years ago, but automatically and not by hand. So, um, I, I don't change. I still believe in the, in the traditional style. Um, but where it's helping us to extract more or, um, to get better wines, uh, from the specific vineyards with, uh, technology. Yeah, we'll go for it for sure. I mean, I believe in that and, uh, and I, I have an open mind for technology in wine.

You brought up that you look around at the different, um, wineries all over the world. But even within Israel, your vineyards span from the Golan Heights down to Mitzpe Ramon. All of these are different terroirs within Israel. How did the diverse terroirs across Israel influence the characteristics of your wines?

It's a very good question. So first of all, we planted all over Israel because we wanted to be at the best regions. Because it's a warm climate, you need to go high to the mountains. And we wanted to go to the best regions. So we have the Galil and the Golan, and we have the Gush Etzion area and the Shomron, and it's Peramon, which is also, it's a desert, but it's 800 meters above sea level. And when we got there, we checked for the soil. We did a soil test in order to put the right variety. The right clone and the right rootstock on the specific soil and climate and varieties. We thought a lot about it and we did some mistakes, but this is how you learn. And we change on the way. And we learned, let's say, for Mitsperamon, which not every variety will go because of the high radiation. It's not easy to grow there all the varieties. So at the moment we have Chenin Blanc and Malbec that we think are very suitable for the specific terroir. But we are still learning and tasting and I'm going to different wineries in Israel in order to taste the specific vineyards all over the country. Yeah, we'll get different terroir and it's amazing. It's amazing to taste after the harvest to taste all, let's say, Cabernet Sauvignon from the Galil, Golan, and we have in Gush Etzion and the Shomron, to taste the different styles and terroir that you get from each region.

There's definitely a distinction between each of them?

Yes, definitely. And it depends on the variety also, because some varieties are very influential by clone. Different clones. Let's say Syrah. Syrah can be very different. Terroir will impact, but the clone is very impactful also. So Cabernet Sauvignon, usually it's less on the clone and more on the terroir. So it depends on the variety, and this is how we learned what we think is the best location for specific vineyards or specific varieties. Because we have a beautiful single vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon from Gouche-Tillon, and we have a specific and beautiful Cabernet Sauvignon from Malkia. Very different style, but both, both of them are, uh—

That's from the vineyard or it's from the winemaking?

It's from the vineyard because the winemakers stay the same, pretty much. Um, it's from the vineyard. Uh, because it's, it's amazing to taste it. Uh, you'll get different, different styles of Cabernet Sauvignon. And this is something that every year, you know, it's to understand how much is in the soil and how much is in the vineyard. And this is something we are still learning and it's not easy to understand. Sometimes you get problems in the vineyard that you don't understand why. And we're doing a lot of tests for the soil, but this is what interesting in wine, I think, the diversity.

Talk to me about what in the terroir distinctly shapes the profile of the wine. You talked about the two Cabernets. What's different about them in the taste and the approach?

For a specific Cabernet, say the Malkia or the Galil, will give you usually very lush and very powerful wines. Foot forward, usually very powerful. And from the Gauchet-Sion, usually we get thinner, more elegant wines, richer with pyrazines, which is a character of Cabernet Sauvignon, but you feel it very distinct in Gauchet-Sion. And you actually get it also from Merlot in Gauchet-Sion, which is, it's amazing because And, um, so it's thinner, more elegant, with more pyrazines, but still has very nice complexity. So for my style of wine, I usually prefer the Cabernet Sauvignon coming from the, from that region, from Luschetz. Yes.

What about the, I know Shiraz can, can be so different.

Yeah.

They can be very spicy and very heavy, and I've even seen almost like very light Shiraz that are not like rosé light, but close.

Yes, Syrah is, like I said before, it's very— depends on the clones. You have different clones that some of them will give you the— take it to more earthy, more animalistic, like, you know, like leather and meat and stuff like that. And other COI will give you more floral style, uh, and, uh, and, and fruit-forward wines. Uh, and it's, it's amazing, but, uh, that's not enough. What you do in the vineyards will change it drastically. I mean, the way you treat it on the vineyards, uh, when you prune, How you prune, what's the yield. Usually Syrah is very, very spoiled with water also, which is a problem in Israel. You need to irrigate. So you need a— our viticulture, viticulturist, this is what he does. I mean, Syrah will look very happy, but if you don't give enough water, in one day it can fall apart and fall down. So, um, to be hands-on the vineyards in Syrah, it's very important. Cabernet Sauvignon will go anywhere. Doesn't matter. Syrah is a spoiled varietal. Um, and the style is very different, uh, with clone and terroir. So let's say our Syrah in the Galil usually will be very, very fruitful. But, uh, the Syrah we'll get from Gush Etzion, let's say, are like more, um, more the style of leather and animal and earthy, which is very nice.

The Désiré series features a Cabernet Sauvignon produced only in exceptional years. What are the criteria to determine such a release, and how do you ensure its distinctiveness?

So like I said, we have a lot of, let's say, Cabernet Sauvignon. Every varietal, you usually get a lot of different vineyards of the specific varietal. Um, so what we does, um, usually during harvest, every— in the tasting, we are giving grades to the specific vineyards. Um, and after malolactic fermentation, when we done with, uh, the, the first stage of the wines, the fermentation, we taste all the wines and also, uh, and, and we are, um, give them scores and we'll see the best Cabernet Sauvignon. And then we treat it as we should in Premium. We'll give it the specific barrels and how long and the rotations. And after giving scores and we'll see which one is the best, we'll put it in barrels and usually it will be 24 months. And after that, we'll taste it and then we'll decide if we think it's good enough to be in Desire. Sometimes, and we do it a lot, We do also a blind tasting with the competition in the market. So we'll bring the high-end wines and do a blind tasting and we'll see where we are. Where we are. And if I'm not in the first 3, usually I'll not put it in the market. So it's a hard decision. Usually the tasting will give to professionals. So it's not just me there in the blind tasting. We bring people from the outside, sometimes winemakers. I don't tell them even what it is. Just taste and give scores, like in competitions. So this is the way we, I mean, we challenge the desire. We need it to be the high-end wine.

2024.

How's it looking?

Looking very good. The whites are very, very good. It was a warm, winter year, so we thought we were gonna have some problems and we had some problem with yield, but quality-wise it looks very, very good. The whites, some of them we already released, so we can taste and see this is, I think, one of the best years in the last decade of our Sauvignon Blanc. And, um, and the reds, uh, the reds are in barrels. Uh, I tasted them. A month ago, it looks very good. But again, in Israel, you don't have a lot of changes through the vintages because usually the weather is very stable. It's not like in Europe, in France, that you'll get storms and rain during the harvest and very, very diverse weather. Here it's pretty stable, so usually the The differences between vintages are not that—

As a head winemaker, how do you envision the future of Israeli wines on the global stage, and what role does Tabor play?

I think Israel— Israeli wines should be more recognized in the, in the global, um, wine market. And, uh, I think, uh, we should do Like what Greece did many, like 10 years ago when they all got together, the wine industry of Greece, and they labeled them as a Greek's, the wine of Greece. And you saw, um, all kind of tasting all over the world. I, I saw in, in, in New York City, Greece wine for tasting, and it labeled them very high in the, in the wine market. And I think we should do the same because at the moment, each winery is for himself, pretty much. Um, so, uh, it will give us more power and, uh, and the wines are very good. Everyone who tasted Israeli wines, uh, will tell you that you see the evolution of the wines. They are getting better and better. And, uh, there is no reason why we shouldn't be on the, on the, you know, the big, the state with the big ones, the big wines of Europe and the New World. And so first we need to come together. All the wineries should come together and build, probably with help of the government, to build a label, Israeli wines. Israeli bread. And not kosher wines that now you see on the shelf, kosher wines, and people think non-Jewish people think kosher wines, ah, it's cheap, sweet wines. No, it's very high-end wines from Israel and should respect the history of Israel, which produced wine 3,000 years ago. And that we are like a mix, maybe Greece as well, like a mix between the Old World and the New World, because we had a lot of transition in the wine industry in Israel. From 3,000 years ago to Rothschild and now the new age of wines in the last 40 years.

It's blossomed. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing.

Yeah. So, and what's the bullshit? I mean, I would like, of course, our wines to be— I always like to lead the trends and be in the front. So, Of course, I'll do my best to do the best wines in order not only Taborn, also the Israeli wines should get recognized on the global stage. But Israeli wines are amazing. I think we have very, very good winemakers here. And we have the, I mean, this is what we should do right now. Take the wines and, you know, Take them, take them out to the world because we are good enough. That's for sure.

It's, it's a, it's amazing. Um, I was really impressed when I saw the artisanal brand come out. Um, the whole branding of it is beautiful and it really is appropriate because the wines are special, not only internally within Israel, but externally. I think they can stand up to any other ones that are there. So I, I think it's amazing. Um, I really, I really look forward to it. Can you discuss any upcoming projects or wines in development with Tabor that enthusiasts should look forward to?

I don't want to put name, but we have, we have very new varietals that are not existent in Israel still. Really? Um, wow. Will come probably in the next 2 to 3 years because we just planted them a year ago. So some new varietals, new to the country, not only for Tabo. Also, we are going to plant some new varietals for Tabo that we are not— we don't have in the moment, like Grenache, Grenache Noir and Grenache Blanc, both of them. We also will put I hope so. Should be on the, on the, they should get the right quality. But, uh, again, I believe a lot in Syrah in Israel. So I would like to put a Syrah in the, you know, Ayan portfolio. So in the creation, uh, at least, um, serious. And, uh, a lot of new plantings, um, that should be in there. But you know, it's wine, so You plant a vineyard, if it's a premium wine, it will be on the market in 7 years. So it will take a while. It takes a while.

How did the new ventures align with Tabor's philosophy and commitment to quality?

So again, I believe in very drinkable wines. So usually the plantings, the new plantings I do is for varietals that fit my philosophy and together with terroir and the climate here in Israel because I love Pinot Noir. I love it. This is maybe the, the most amazing.

Most winemakers love Pinot Noir and they, the trouble is they're just trying to get it here and it's very, very difficult.

So, so yeah, I'm, I'm not even tried.

I would ask you whether or not you were gonna look for a Pinot Noir variety.

I, I've tasted a lot of Israeli Pinot Noir. I mean, I think most of them, it's, it's not good enough.

They don't make, they don't make it to Pinot Noir. Right.

It's not good enough. And I know Pinot Noir. I used to, when I worked in Napa, I worked with Pinot Noir of the highest ranking in California. And it was beautiful Pinot Noir. And you can't get it here. I mean, this is so different climate. And Pinot Noir is very spoiled. You need cool weather. And I will be very surprised to taste Pinot Noir with a very distinctive style and quality in Israel. But, uh, so at the moment it's not on my, uh, I'm not planning to. So I will plant varieties that are like Grenache Blanc and Grenache Noir that I think very suitable to the weather. Um, and also Syrah and Durif. And, uh, and, and maybe more Sauvignon Blanc, which also does very, very good in Israel. Um, I don't know if you know, but to, at this moment we are planting, uh, the, the, the plantings we'll get is from South Africa. It's no longer from, from Europe. So it's also different clones and different, the variety, the same varieties, but different clones coming from South Africa, which is something we need to test and see if it's, uh, At the moment, it looks pretty good. Uh, the last 2 years that people getting, um, fruit and wines from that.

I spoke to, uh, Noa Mahoz. She's amazing. So yeah, I know, I know about it and it's a, yeah, it's a, that is a big, a big change.

It's a big change. And, uh, it's so far it look, looks very good. And, uh, the quality. But it's something we should taste for many years because I'm pretty sure it will not get the same style of wine for all wines. Some of them may be better, some of them probably less, but we don't have a choice. We need to take care of our vineyards in order to leave something for the next generation and not diseases.

For listeners who are new to Duboeur, Which wines would you recommend they start with the best understanding of your portfolio and winemaking style?

Where should they start? How should they proceed through?

I think on the elements level should try our Chenin Blanc and Sauvignon Blanc and Syrah, the Shiraz, it's called Shiraz. On the creation and the Malbec and the Viognier. I think pretty much, uh, stand for my style in wines, which very elegant and easy and nice to drink and complex, but easy to drink on the same time. Um, yeah, pretty much this is it. This is the wine I usually recommend. Very cool.

Can we try some more?

Wines? Sure.

I'd love to try it. You brought up the comparison between the terroirs.

In wine so you can, if you want to compare. Let me see. And now we'll do a comparison of the Cabernet Sauvignon from the Galil and from the Gush Etzion. So this is from the Galil, but this is just opened, so usually it takes a while to open. The Galil is the Desire, is from the Malkia vineyard and usually very fruitful. Again, it's my style specifically. I prefer it, uh, fruitful still, but elegant, not fruit bomb and a lot of oak, but it's, um, black fruit, very complex. So in the Gushetzián, you'll get more pyrazines. Yeah. Uh, it's very notable. Um, which I like, uh, because it's, This is the character of the variety. So it's notable, but with age also, it's— I mean, at the beginning you'll get it very green style of pyrazine. Some people doesn't like it, but when it ages in the bottle, it softens and it's getting more complexity in the wine. And I think it's giving it some coolness, you know, like mint style, which I like because Cabernet, it's a cool variety. Syrah is a warm variety. You know, it's lush and it's spicy. And Cabernet, it's cool. It's the spirulins and it's—

Even though this was just open, it's still really approachable. It's still real level.

Yeah, thank you. It will open up in the next 2 hours and get more complexity, but again, this is the Malkia, the Galil Cabernet from, uh, it's the Desire level. And the reason why it's in desire, because it's complex. It's very complex on the mouth and it's got a very long finish, which at the end, I mean, I think those wines may be pretty much on the same level with a bit of a few points more for the Galette. This is why it's in desire. But specifically, I think it's one of the best Cabernet. The Gush Etzion, it's called Judaica Vineyard. It's a single vineyard. It's also won last year in a gold medal in the Shkol Hazahavet, in the Cabernet over 100 shekels, which is— it stands up. It's a very, very good Cabernet Sauvignon. Yeah, but I love comparisons. I can all day do comparisons.

You know, it's— some people have exceptional memories, like Gabe Geller had that memory for years of different tastes. They don't have that.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's very hard to do also, to remember.

Yeah.

Remember smells. You know, our nose can detect differences in 10,000 different smells, but to remember them and say this smell is like pirazids, like green, this one is like chocolate, this one is like caramel, this is very hard for people to do and it's a lot of experience.

Needs a lot of practice.

Practice, yeah. I mean, I like both of them very much. They're very good ones.

I can see, I can see drinking the Gu Shè Zi Hong Wan more regularly, and I can see drinking it with more foods, actually. Um, because it's, it's a little lighter. Um, and this is like, I can see drinking it with, you know, heavy steak. Yeah.

And, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's more heavy. Uh, it got more body into it. Uh, the gousse-tion is a bit thinner. Yeah, but it's, but still complex.

It is. It's lovely.

Love it.

The Malkia is like almost, um—

It's the same vintage, actually.

It's actually the same vintage?

Yes, 2020.

So it, it's actually, um, deeper in color.

Yeah. The, the Malkia vineyard is, is a very unique vineyard. It's, um, You come to the vineyard, you look at it, you see, yeah, it's a terra rossa, very— this is what you get usually in the Galil. But if you dig under, you get maybe 20 centimeters of soil and underneath, no soil. It's only rock. It's a limestone rock. Up here? Yes. It's not— it's in the Gherdzo. It's right on the border with Lebanon. You'll get a lot of rock, only rock. So the roots of the vines, they need to dig very, very hard into the rock to get into water. And they struggle, they struggle a lot. And when they struggle, we get good wines because you see it on the vines, very, very small berries, very dense. And very concentrated berries. And you get very— it's— you look at the cluster, it looks different than regular Cabernet Sauvignon because it's a bit smaller and very small berries. And concentration is the word. I mean, you get very concentrated grapes without doing— so this vineyard, we don't do anything. I mean, you don't need to thin. It all happened naturally because the vines are struggling, which is very good. This is the perfect vineyard. You don't need to do anything, just let it grow. Just pick on the right time and— Very cool. It's very good. It was a very good year, 2020. Very good.

One last question I have for you is, how did the war, how has the war impacted you?

Well, it impacted a lot. I mean, first mentally, it was very hard. It was the end of harvest. We had almost 50% of the personnel were in reserve. Including me and my viticulturist. And some of my workers are still doing a lot of work in reserve. And, but it was at the end of harvest, so I mean, it was okay for us and you can't complain when the country is in war. Specifically in the vineyards, We didn't harvest one of our vineyards in the Galil, very high-end Merlot in Morgaliot, which is also on the border with Lebanon. We thought we couldn't harvest the Malkia, the Cabernet Sauvignon, but at the end they did it. But we almost couldn't get to the vineyard. So one of the grower personnel, he went there. He gave us— he took the samples and he met one of our guys not on the border, a bit— and this is how we tasted, this is how we checked for the right ripening. So, it wasn't easy, but I mean, it could be much worse. We have one vineyard that got a direct hit. It was in the Golan, actually. It was a tanad. So we lost a few vines, maybe like 40 or 50 vines.

The open fields in the Golan are all vineyards.

It's crazy.

You know what it says? Shatak batua. Oi, another vineyard.

Yeah, it's amazing because the quality is good. And we also had problem with the personnel doing some end harvest, end pick. Some of our end-picked vineyards picked by machines because we didn't have a choice. But I think overall we don't have a lot to complain. I mean, we did fine. Maybe a little bit less on the personnel, but again, the country is in war. We did a lot. We helped some other wineries that needed help from the borders, and we did what we could. I mean, we donate a lot of wines to soldiers and to reserves. And yeah. But generally the wines still good, no problems during the harvest, and I expect them to be on the best quality still because it was a good harvest overall.

Poor Toda, Toda Rabba for being on the Coachella Terroir and for giving me the time.

Thank you.

No, thank you. It's great. It's great.

Thank you for coming. It's a pleasure. It's always nice talking about wines. Yeah. The Sauvignon also opened up. Getting more aromatic now.

This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you are new to the Kosher Teruah, please check out our many past episodes.