Philippe Lichtenstein: Innovating Israeli Wines with Mediterranean Flair at Hayotzer Winery

Welcome to The Kosher Teruah.

I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. The following episode is a conversation about Hayotzer Winery with its acclaimed winemaker, Philip Lichtenstein. The name Hayotzer means "the creator" in Hebrew, and this winery situated in Jerusalem is owned by the Shor family, Israel's oldest winemaking family. They established their first winery in the Old City of Jerusalem in 1847, making the reestablishment of the country's recorded winemaking history. Over 8 generations, the family has expanded their winemaking ventures, with Hayotzère Winery emerging as a quality-focused branch of their Arzat Winery Group. Born in France, Philip pursued his winemaking education at the University of Montpellier, a prestigious institution known for its viticulture and oenology programs. He made aliyah, immigrated to Israel in 1990, bringing with him a wealth of knowledge and experience from the French wine industry. Philip began his career at Zichron Yaakov Cellars, one of the country's prominent wineries of the time, and in 2010 he was appointed as the winemaker for Arza Winery, and under his guidance, Arza launched the Hayotzer brand in 2015. Focusing on producing wines that blend traditional techniques with modern innovation.

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If you're comfortable at home, please select a wonderful bottle of kosher wine, sit back, relax, and enjoy this interesting chapter in kosher winemaking history with this very special winemaker.

Welcome to the kosher terroir, Philippe.

Thank you.

Pleasure. It's pronounced Liechtenstein?

Liechtenstein.

Liechtenstein. Liechtenstein. Pleasure. You told me before you were born in Grenoble, France.

Yeah.

What inspired your journey into winemaking?

You know, because I, I love the product. I drink wines and afterward it will be during the studies because I go to agronomy.

Yep.

And I do my studies in Montpellier. In INSA, and there, there was specialization for viticulture and oenology. So I do it and began to work in France a little, and afterward, in '87, go to Israel.

You worked in France in wine?

Yeah, not a lot. I do some vinification. First, I work in studies, 1984, in Les Ignants Corbières. And afterward, I do vinification in Trets. I work in Burgundy in Urigny in the lab. And I was a, um, counselor for viticulture and oenology in Corsica.

Okay, in Corsica.

Yeah.

Wow. Were there any particular winemakers or regions of France that inspired you?

The Mediterranean region, I know them better. You know, I have not a good knowledge in Bordeaux.

What led to your Aliyah and to bring your expertise to Israel?

Oh, what leading? It's— I don't do Aliyah for wine. I only look for a job in Israel in my specialization because it's better for me. So I go to all the wineries. I think in— I was in Carmel in '85. And in '87, after they say they don't need me, in '87 they call me because they need someone to quality control. They are doing renewing in the winery and they do, they need someone to quality control. Quality control not so interesting me, but it was a job in wine. So I begin in quality control. Afterward, after 2 years, they ask me if I want to go to Zichron Yaakov. To be a second winemaker. And after that, I was 18 years in Carmel, a little more than an half in Carmel. And I was winemaker in Zichron Yaakov winery. It's the biggest. It was the biggest in Israel. Now there is nothing. And afterward I go to Alza winery to do improvement of the product, to do improvement of the wine. No, because in Carmel we do a very long work to improve the quality because I think that first in Israel there is no place until the Golan opened. Yeah, Golan Valley. Nobody seems to think that there is place for high price wine. I think high price wine to be high quality, but nobody thinks about this. It was all only big production of low quality.

Quantity rather than quality.

Yeah.

Okay. What— were there any challenges that you faced in adapting to the Israeli terroir compared to France or Corsica?

There is. First, you know, here people are using irrigation. A lot. And there are studies from— there is, you know, I went to Israel. I think about 2 studies from Machonayim, okay, the wine institute. At this time it was Charles Wanger. And the studies they do is that grapes have to be irrigated. They proved that in Israel you have to have irrigation. And second, they said that in the summer, When grapes are staying on the vine, you have a degradation of the quality. So people are doing with a lot of irrigation to have big quantity and not to going in the long maturation. In this way, you are going to big quantities and low quality.

Yes.

But it take a time, you know. First, you have to control the irrigation. Until now, I have a discussion with the guy about the water. As you know, this year we work in Mitzpe Ramon. I don't know the vineyard, so you have to work with the farmer and he knows. But I think that in any way, the idea that if you are cutting the water too much, you have bad result is not right, you know. And people have always putting too much water. I have a lot of discussion with the farmer, all to work with less water. We have a Malbec in Ramat Sirin. Ramat Sirin is near Kfar Tavor. Okay. And in this place, in the vineyard, you know, you have the, the pond, the water is coming inside. And near this pond, you have a problem because there is not a good distribution, perhaps not a good distribution, but The water perhaps is going down in some place. So to have the same quantity of water disponible to the vines, you have to do differential irrigation. And when the guy go to check, he sees this point that there is a loss of water in this point and is near the valve. So he opens the valve automatically and the second part of the vineyard Okay? It's too much irrigated. And people are not controlling and they have not the idea that you have to control very precisely your irrigation in order to have good maturation. Because when the vines are too much irrigated, you have too much vegetative expression and the maturation goes to be late. And in Israel, it's a problem because you have very high temperature. And so you have a degradation of the quality. Our problem, you know, it's different when in the beginning of the season, you can put more water, but you have to have a vegetative expression because you have to have leaves to have photosynthesis. In the second side, in the maturation state, when you are in the steps of maturation, you have to control the water because in a normal, you know, in like, like us. What I learned in Montpellier, in vegetal physiology, is that you have, you can see as a balance, okay? And the maturation, there are some inputs that are going to vegetative expression and some inputs are going to maturation. You know, maturation, I have a big Discussion with one of the farmers, I say, "You know what maturation, it says that the vine has to be positive, green. Positive is green, you know?" So the farmer is very happy when he's going in his file and see all is green. But I say that maturation is an expression of death. Because what is going on in the vine, in the tree, is giving fruit because to give his descendants, in English, his descendants, because they are going— if the tree is thinking that it's going to death, to die, and so, it goes to do maturation in order to have fruits. And the vegetative expression is that water and ammonia, okay? Water and ammonia is going— the tree have a very good vegetative expression. And if you are cutting and water and, you know, all the elements, all the mineral elements are good for maturation, to have maturation. So if you have too much vegetative expression, And so you will have a bad maturation. And we want a good maturation. And they say not a rapid maturation, but in Israel, in our very hot condition, to have too long maturation, perhaps for Cabernet is good, but for other varieties is not so nice.

Okay. First of all, I want to say thank you. For wrestling with the English for me. Oh, I try.

Thank you very much.

No, you're doing a great job. Even complicated concepts, you're expressing yourself very well. Your English is much better than you say.

Thank you.

I'm just telling you. So I just want you to know that. We've been discussing the terroir of Israel and how it impacts the varietals that you grow. So you said for Cabernet, It can handle the longer maturation. What other varietals do you deal with?

Okay, I would say our policy was to try to go with Mediterranean varieties because we are in Mediterranean terroir here in Israel. So what is There is an opposite, you know. Why in Burgundy they are working with Pinot Noir? Because Pinot Noir have maturation, rapid maturation. Because if in Burgundy now the climate is going warmer and warmer, okay? But if you see before in Burgundy, let's say in October, November, It's very cold. Okay. So they have to have grapes that matured early. So Pinot Noir is early. They don't— this is the reason, you know, the reason that the Mediterranean varieties are in the Mediterranean area. It's more difficult to understand, you know, because mostly is giving good quality and good and big quantity in this area. And we try to work with Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre. This is a difficult variety because there is a good expression to giving fruit. So say you have big quantity, you know, and you have, let's say, in Mourvèdre. Mourvèdre, very difficult variety, very problematic. Sometimes it's not maturing well. We don't know why. In '14, We don't do Mourvèdre because it was absolute fiasco. We wait, wait, wait and have nothing. But Mourvèdre in any way is giving a lot of fruit, very good grapes. It's difficult to close the water for the Mourvèdre because all the leaves are going down. It's very sensitive for dryness. Okay? And very difficult to do anything. You know, you have the problem with the rootstock. And so you have to move it, you have to give it, let's say, with sufficient water. Okay. As to control it, you have to cut to have less fruit. And there are two possibilities. In Netophar, you know Netophar? Netophar, they do, they hunt it very, very strongly. They let 5 eyes in each— I don't remember, so in each vine, I think. And they have less quantity with big grapes. What we do is different. I let— we are cutting with one eye in each one, and afterward take all the second grapes, you know, in each bud. In each bud you have, as it's growing, you have about 2 grapes. In Petit Verdot, sometimes you have 4. It's different for the variety, but— Clusters. Clusters, okay. So we take all the second one. Yeah. And so we add grapes because if you are going with less grapes, you have big grapes. The vine is always doing compensation. Okay. When they do in Binyamina, when I was in Carmel, they do a test in Petit Verdot. Okay, there are 4 grapes in each bud and they say too much. So they cut, they cut 2.

There's 4 clusters in each bud that grows.

In buds grow, there are 4 clusters. So they cut 2 and they see that the 2 left grow like another one. You know, there is always compensation. So the The way I see it, in our day, is to have, let's say, a lot of grapes, okay? To cut half, but later. You know, as you can't do it late, we do late because you have no compensation afterward. And it was the way that we work with the Mourvèdre. And that's it, it's work. It's work. In the Grenache, mostly we have two. Too much grapes to have good maturation. I think I'm in California when I speak with a guy in Napa, they say that they are seeing the maturation and cut, but they're cutting about 18 bricks. Okay. In Grenache, you can't do it because it's so density of fruit. And if you let all— density of fruit, of leaves, When you are doing, you are cutting the cluster, you do damage. You damage the other cluster.

So when you're talking about cutting, you're not talking about harvesting. You're talking about actually cutting to make it, to make less clusters in order to, for the vine to focus on the clusters that you're leaving. Okay, very cool.

This because Mediterranean variety, I'm not speaking of Syrah. Syrah, we are only doing, taking shoots in green. But not taking down clusters because Syrah, you have about less, about ton, ton, ton point two. So there is no problem. But you know, in Grenache and in Mourvèdre, we have to take out clusters. This is a problem of Mediterranean grapes. Mediterranean grapes, if they have water and sun, they are doing big quantities. So you have to refrain it. And this is a problem of Mediterranean grapes, but you know, it's doing other wine. It's not a strong colored Cabernet, but it's more elegant, smoothie wine, more good for— more food wine for every meat. It's something different. But, you know, in the East Slavian market, the problem that people know Cabernet, know Cab, and they want Cab.

But I've noticed that the market is changing. People are getting used to, especially in a hot summer, drinking a heavy cab is not nearly as much fun or as nice as drinking one of the lighter wines. And it's like a Mourvèdre.

Mourvèdre is a difficult wine because it's like Pinot Noir. They say that Mourvèdre is the Pinot Noir of the South because they have the same problem of Pinot Noir. Pinot Noir When the first I see, I see what I've seen is like what in Kibbutz Kiryat Hanavim. It's the same problem. A lot of clusters, big quantities of grapes that you have to refrain. And in maturation is the same, you know, more red. You have to open the bottle, see what is going on. And sometimes you have to do aeration, sometimes to drink it as it. And it's more difficult to find for the people because sometimes they have not good experience with Mourvèdre. But because Mourvèdre is the wine that you have to work with it. And you know, for a new market as Israel, it's very difficult.

But I've noticed that the winemakers are getting more accustomed to these varietals and the wine is getting better and better and better each year.

Yeah, you know, I began, you know, 35 years, more, 37 years in Israel. And when I going, I speak with Israel, Israel, from a wine maker in Rishon and taste Egyptian wines. Was something awful. And he said, you know, Philip, 20 years ago, the wines like this, you know, so we are always improving. And I say, it's a From now, we always will improve the quality of the wine because there is a great potential in Israel. There is a great potential because we don't know very well. You know, in France, when a guy from barrels, I think this was Radoux, no, Demptoz, Demptoz go and they say, you know, to adapt a vineyard to barrels is 5 years. Not less, you can't do that. In Israel, they're open winery, 2 years after, selling wines like they were the best wine in the world. I think in wine business, the time is doing the job.

It certainly is here. It certainly is here to watch. You're the winemaker at Hayotzer Winery. So Hayotzer has a long history. It was part of the Shor family group of wineries. So it has a history that goes back to 1848 or something.

1847. What? 1847.

1847. Sorry. But Hayotzer, each of the wineries has its own vision. Can you share the vision for Hayotzer? What's the vision of that you're trying to set it apart from all of the other wineries in this room?

Okay. The different vision from Hayotzer, it was to work with not be a cab winery. We do cap too, but it was not our first vision. Second, perhaps going against the stream, and if you see 30 years before or 40, 30 years before in Bordeaux, the wine has 12.5, 13. Now it's 13.5 and more. Alcohol-wise. Because it's a trend. The trend is not to have more alcohol because in France they are looking for varieties to develop varieties that giving the same maturation with less alcohol because alcohol— they are doing desalcoholization of the wine because alcohol is a problem. But what you have to have is maturation. So they are going— it was the Penault way of thinking of the wine is 2 weeks more in maturation to have more maturation The aim is to have maturation, to have more tannin, more taste, more color, more flavor in the wine. Wine will be strong, not because you have alcohol, but because going later in maturation is giving automatically more alcohol. I think that in first, we take against the stream and doing Cab, let's say, about 30.5, and don't waiting the 2 weeks more. You know, when I'm working mostly in Dijon area, in our best quality Merlot and Cabas in Dijon area, and always don't go to 25, 26. Sometimes we are harvesting in 25 because when between the time I decide to that we harvest and we have to have a machine free and we have condition and sometimes taking time. So you have a delay from— you have always to decide before. When to think about— we are not a big winery and we are working in a lot of area. So we are not controlling in any way. We have always the little one in each area. We have the little one who is working. So to have machine to— an harvesting machine, I have to command it before. Okay. And so we have always to do good planification. Sometimes we are changing. Okay. But so, and in our planification, we are thinking that the thing 24, 25—

We're talking about bricks, right?

Yeah. 20. Always. You know, the sugar.

Yeah.

The conception of sugar is the parameter we have the biggest relation with the quality. In any way. What you do, what all the checks they do, always the breaks have correlation with quality until you are going to— after 25 breaks is different, but you know, you are doing jam. But always, if you are seeking, there is a very big correlation between sugar and quality in the same vineyard. So we are always working not to go to very late maturation. Okay. And you have more fresh wine, more, I say, drinkable wine. Okay. Because it's less concentrated. I know that people in Israel like concentrated wine because they are feeling that they're paying for something, you know. But, you know, you are little against the stream, not a lot, because you can be a lot to get the mainstream and living.

You still have to sell wine.

Yeah. You know, about selling, we do a very, very good white wine, 2 years in barrels, like in Burgundy. Otter White. We do it with Viognier and Roussanne. And we go to Isha Navim, you know, in Tel Aviv. And we do testing. Everybody think fantastic wine, something special. Okay, you put— people don't take the first bottle from the shelf, okay, never, because it's high pricing and it's wine and something different. And we don't sell one bottle. I— we don't know what quantity. We know we have some barrels, so— and it's until it's 2019, until now, it's very good wine. But you know, you have to sell it. Nobody tastes the wine. I would say not in degustation, professional degustation, where everybody giving good notes. Okay, but you know, in the public, they don't test. Nobody tastes the wine. So you don't sell anything, right? Never. Different things, you know, something different. High price wines in restaurant, the restaurant I taking 3 times. The price, you know. So it's so expensive, so it's very difficult, you know, to— in very high price wines without a good name, very good name, it's difficult to be drink, you know. It's white lands, you know, very, very chalky. And in Ruggeri, I think only, and we have the same problem in Barbera. The problem to have good Barbera is to control the quantity of the grapes, you know, because Barbera is giving very, very big clusters sometimes. So the same problem of control the water in the growing and cut grapes if you have.

When do you, in order to optimize that, when do you actually go through and cut out some of the clusters? When is the best time to do that?

You know, We are doing this because we have problem with workers. When in the Grenache and the Mourvèdre, because in the Grenache you have to do it, it's about like a big green pea. We cut it because afterward what is going to maturation, if you are cut Grenache, you are damaging the other clusters. And we do the Mourvèdre at the same time. The Mourvèdre can be done afterwards, but you know, you have sometimes problem of workers. In Barbera is the same, you know, we are cutting in green. Before they are changing the color. Before, in French, is «autumn», because in French it's going in August, you know. When the tree is going from vegetative to maturation, you know, the step of vegetative growing and going to the step of maturation, you have 3 parameters that you can see. First is going to be woody. You know, the bud is green, going to be woody. Second, you have the apex, the growing part of the grapes is going down. It's drying and going down. You know, in Israel, if you see, you have a lot of vineyards, you are seeing the grapes changing color. You know, in white is more difficult to see, but in red it's very easy to see. This is the sweet thing, changing of color. Changing, the bud is going to be woody and the apex is falling down. You know, and it's why you are going in a lot of vineyards, they are changing color, but the apex is continuing growing. So this is not good for maturation. As for, you know, for low quality, it's okay. For high quality, you have always think of the Côte-Côte-Smirant in the blue. The apex, if it's working, working a lot, drying. This is because hormones— you know, all the answer is like in the human body, you have hormones in the grapes. And the grapes, the trees is receiving signal and afterwards is working with them. And if there is a signal that is the time to continue to grow, they continue to grow and is not good for the maturation.

I get it.

Wow.

It's really such a balance.

Yeah.

It's such a balance between—

In 2024, we have a problem because in the night, the temperature is not going down sufficiently because most of the production of the, let's say, quality products, quality components in the vine is at night. At night, when it's better with low temperature. It's why in Israel we are going up, you know, to, let's say, Galil Golan.

Higher.

Higher, higher. No, no, no, it's perfect. Or going to the desert, you know, because in its paramount you have low temperature at night. And this is a way to have good maturation. But this year in the south, most in, you know, in the north, in Galil, you have the Cabernet have good maturation, but in the south, in Lachish, in Mitspe Ramon, not only in my, in our vineyard, the motivation was not so good. Not so good. And we will see afterwards with the wine, you know, in wine you are surprised because in '83, in Macon region, in Burgundy, they do white wine, mostly Chardonnay. And this They see the wine and they say, we have to— this will not be a good wine. We have to sell it very— and they sell it at a low price to England. Okay. Afterwards they say, what a pity, because the wine in bottle was developing very well. And there are people looking for '83. So you don't— you never know in this business. Sometimes you see that you don't want to keep the wine and you have to see the maturation of the wine in the cellar. And but it seems It seems to be that in the south, most in Cab, that 2014 will not be so good here.

So I was told by many winemakers that this year the quantities are much lower. The yield is much, much lower.

Okay. You know, you can't have big quality with big yield. But low yield is not evidently good quality. You know, sometimes you have bad yield, low yield, and low quality. All can be, you know, if they are in Cab, in the South, they are very, very low yield. But I think, what I see, we will see afterward, but I see the grape and the wines until to know, It seems to be low quality too. Okay.

Unfortunate. Unfortunate. This is a hard year for everybody. This has become a very hard year for everybody.

You know, in the north, we have a problem that in English, I think that is, you have two types of mildew. I think it's downy mildew. You have powdery mildew and downy mildew. It's Plasmoprop viticola. I think that it dony mildew in English, but I don't chew. And they do damage, a lot of damage. And the people in the north, because of the war, can't go as they want to the vineyard to tread them. And there is a lot of loss of quantity. Because when mildew is going in the cluster in the beginning, That's all. I go, it's Carignan, you know, but I go in a vineyard and I tell to the grower, see, and see these rows, see if the clusters you have, the grapes you have here, is paying the machine. And I think about it was 70, 10% of the rows They don't harvest them because they're not— the price of the grapes are not paying the price of the harvesting machine.

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Do you have a personal favorite among the wines that you produce?

Personal favorite?

Yes.

Ah, a favor? Ah, okay.

A favorite of yours.

Oh, oh, I don't— I didn't understand. In the second way. Okay, sorry. You know, when I'm tasting the bottles, always, sometimes you are very disappointing because it's not what you are thinking that you will have at this stage. But sometimes you are going out after degustation with a very, very, very, very good feeling, you know. And the wine, this is the wine, you know. Each wine, I think, in each time they're giving— sometimes you have open bottles and you are so, so happy that we see that we do. So you have a special favor for this wine. But I think that you have to take each wine. Each wine can give something special. But I think that in Israel there's perhaps two wines for— I have a vineyard of Syrah. It's going sometimes very, very fantastic. Things and from there we have Petit Syrah. Petit Syrah is very difficult because you can't— when you are waiting for maturation, this is drying and you have nothing to take. So sometimes we are harvesting too early. Okay, this is a problem for this Syrah because too late is impossible. But I have in 2018, in 2023, fantastic wine. Something fantastic. And developing in barbershop— I am not a lot of barbershop, but developing in barbershop is fantastic. In 2021 was a fantastic petit tiramisu, you know. Sometimes, and you know, I remember, I do, we do the first Zareet in Carmel. They do the, well, they're beginning to do high quality wines. We're working with a vineyard in Zareet, Cabernet. And the first we send a bottle to was Schmittach. It was 2001. And I think 2, 3 years ago, I open it. Fantastic. It's, until to know, a very good one. And sometimes I'm surprised, you know. So you give this, your favor for this wine in the same time because first you do it, let's say, food processing. Let's say, well, wines is part of the a transformation of agricultural matter to food, but you know, it's different because of the potential of aging of the wine and the potential of developing. Most of the food products that you do, it's better in the same day, you know? Afterwards, it's going down. Wine is different, you know? You have another evolution. And sometimes, taste something. So you remember, and this is giving you the favor for the wine. But I think not one special one. I think that the surprise from Syrah and Petit Syrah was the best, you know.

Do you have a specific varietal that you like the most? The Petit Syrah and the Syrah, or is there a varietal that you enjoy the most?

I enjoy them most because of the result. You know, yeah, because it's, you know, more Vedas put up the same thing more bad. You have sometimes the evolution is the possibility of evolution as so big that they think something personal inside, you know, because doing a good cab, you know, this is more less interesting. I think in my point of view, what is interesting, what we can do from something that not seem to be the best quality and you work in the vineyard and afterwards in the winery do something special, you know. So this is personal. But you know, our best wine is Cab. Nothing to do.

The best wine or the best-selling wine?

I think if you say in all the years, okay?

Yeah.

Always, perhaps not always our first wine, when you taste. I don't speaking of pricing, but I think the best, if you take, if each service wants the best barrels, okay, and you take all the years, the barrels, I think consistently is giving the best result. Okay, that's all. But you know, this is not so interesting. It's interesting, the Merlot, that one year is nice and you never know why. Okay. For these years we have so, so good result is more interesting, you know, because you are the surprising, the season, you see the evolution that you are not look, you are not waiting for, you know, this is more interesting.

So a lot of what you've talked about on the podcast so far is about the vineyard side.

Yeah.

What's your— what about the winemaking side inside the winery? Is there different— there are different people who— different winemakers. Some people feel like wine is made in the vineyard, and some people say, yeah, no, wine is made in the winery.

Most of the people think that 80% of the quality of the wine is in vineyard. Why? Because this is a basis. You know, yeah, in— you can't— what they say in the winery, you always can spoil the wine, you know, because afterward you have to have in the winery to have the expression of the quality, you know. So you have to have big good tanks in a way to have good fermentation and good maceration, and you have to have a good lab in order to know when to do all operation when you have to rake and when you have to fill feed the wine. And you need a good barrel cellar in order not to have less problem in your barrels and with consistent temperature and humidity. You have to have good material to operate the wine. Afterward, you can choose the techniques, you know, with some grapes doing long maturation, short maturation. This is different. This This is a decision, okay? So perhaps in your decision in the winery, you have the expression of the quality in the vineyard, you know? You have to express it. But with bad grapes, never do something special. Perhaps a very nice wine, you know? It's more easier in white wine and in rosé, you know, to take, let's say, grapes no so quality and to have a very, very nice and sometimes a smoothie white or rosé because the works— you do the works mostly during the fermentation. Afterward, doing the maturation on lees can have a very, very nice product. But high quality with possibility of long aging, you have to have very good quality grapes in any way.

Just a couple more questions. Your approach in crafting wine and when you're making wine, there's a traditionalist approach which is like French, and there's a little bit more of a modern approach.

There was a traditional approach because I have a traditional approach because I learned in France, right? And what I work, you know, it's very old wineries as I work. So it was traditional products and nothing special. But, you know, in the market in Bordeaux too, they ask to have chips too. They can put chips in. Yeah. I say no, then they can't because you have to go with the market, and Bordeaux in 2024 is not Bordeaux 40 years ago because the tradition is changing. Because when they taste, do the test, and the Californian wines was with better notes than the French wine, so they have to do adaptation, you know, always. But I think that we are more toward— I have more traditional approach of the wine, you know, more aeration during fermentation, Are you using new oak barrels?

Do you use—

You know, well, we are working both always. When you are going to barrels and we're tasting, the best barrels was barrels of second edition, you know, because, you know, fresh barrels is too much barrels in the wine. You are losing fruit. Okay, so what we are doing, we're doing a mixing. Well, working with barrels, like I think all the wineries, you know, if you are speaking of 2-year barrels, barrels is doing 3 cycles with 6 years and afterwards go out. Perhaps we are taking from to sweet wine or for something special, old barrels, but it's about 3 cycles in one barrel, about. You know, best quality is half new barrels Mostly French, you know. But when we are going with, in the first, the idea of the Lyrica Mediterranean series, what to going is only 10 months of barrels with only so new, only American, in order to give to the people a test of wood because in quality one they want it. Yeah, but not Not too much. Afterward, because the selling are not going well, so we are going to 2 years in barrels because the wine stay until it was good. Okay? But I think that in the Mediterranean wines, you have not to have too much wood because you will have woody wine. You know, one of the criticism about the first high quality wine in Israel of the boutique, the first boutique was But barrel wines, you are drinking wood only.

Oaky, too oaky.

Too oaky. So, and I have a discussion with one of the owners without names that he want to work, it was 20 years ago, something like this, and he want to put 100% of new barrels. So a year after, what we are doing? We are taking all the barrels out, 2 years after. Yeah. What you are doing? And I tell him that I say your wines are not to be priced as only new barrels because new barrels is a factor of price. You know, you are new barrels, let's say you are paying about in this time, it is what good barrels is about €700, about. So you have 3,000 shekels. So you have most, you have more than 10 shekels per bottle only in barrels. Only to price. And so I say you are, You are not fair with your customer because you are giving so high price wine, so high price because of the barrels, and your wines is not so high quality. You know, I think that there is very fancy, you know, people in Israel are pricing a wine how much time in barrels. First, if you see People are writing the time in barrels, but not in what barrels they put them. You can put all barrels. It's, let's say, you are buying 400 chekel wine.

Yeah.

And it's not giving nothing, you know. In all barrels, you have aging. What is the aging? You have two— the aging in barrels, you have, let's say, two phases. The first is the wood. Okay, the barrels giving wood, all barrels not giving wood. The second is a very, very slow aeration to have a very slow oxidation of the wine. And this is giving the maturation. So if you have in old barrels, you have only this phase of the maturation and you are not— the wood, the wood is in aroma and in tannin that you have in the mouth. And you see, you know, I test not a long time the same wines in new, old barrels, it's very, very different. And they are not writing— I don't see a lot of wineries say, "This time in new French barrels." And the people, in the mind of the people, is the same, you know.

Yeah, they just— especially the basic consumers, you know, part of the problem I think comes from in Bordeaux, they age in oak for at least 24 months. It's the, you know, even the minimum is 24 months. Here we don't. I think it's because of the climate and other things, but, um, and I'm not sure, I would like to hear your opinion of it, but here we don't. If you age an oak for 24 months or 36 months or what have you, it becomes a problem.

You know, so if you see the No, I don't test very young Bordeaux. Okay. But when for the vinalies, they do the young Bordeaux, the primeur.

Yes.

Okay. They put, they do malolactic in barrels and they put in a very friendly barrels with not a lot of tannin in order to have young wine because in Bordeaux from the vineyard and from the barrels, you have a lot of tannin. And after 1 year of maturation is indrinkable. You know, it's so, so, so harsh that it's indrinkable. They have to have the 2 years of barrel and the 1 year on bottle in order to be drinkable first. That's when it's drinkable. In Israel, you have not the same problem. You have drinkable wine, let's say, now. So, aging in barrels is improving the wine, yes, but Your way of thinking is different. I don't see in my winery a lot of wine, you know, which you are putting in barrels 3-4 months after, as a prise de bois, taking the wood, sometimes is very, very harsh. And if you want to commercial, to sell this kind of wine, it's impossible. But as I taste young Bordeaux after 6 months of barrels, too much tannin that I don't know now, but I am speaking in the '80s, okay? And you can drink it.

Right.

And so it's different. You have different grapes, different perhaps way of work with wood and—

That, those old Bordeaux though, just a question, those old Bordeaux, do you feel like they they were able to reach higher levels of complexity over time, or they just became approachable so much, much, much, much later?

I think that the approach in Bordeaux is different. You know, you are going in longer maturation, so you are more easy drinking wine earlier. Okay. So it's changing. But I think in this kind of wine, I have not opened a lot of Bordeaux, but good ones. I think in any way, aging is aging in bottles, okay? In the high price Bordeaux, is, you know, not a lot of cash here, and is always give you good feeling, good product. Is doing good for the wine, you know? Okay. Israeli wine is different because you have no a lot of experience, you know. There is not a lot of wineries are keeping wines in the vinotec a long time, and not a lot of people taste them, you know. It's mostly for the winery to see what is going in the long, long aging. And I think that the losing of experience for, for long aging, you know. I, I tell you, I open my wines because I have one in the in the wine keeper. So to see what is going after 20-something, like 20 years, and it was very, very, very, very, very nice wine. And people mostly are drinking it the same day. This is the first. But let's say if you're keeping wine 5 years, I don't see, you know, you have to have big possibilities, you know. It's not for all the— from some special people that can have so big wine cellar in the, in our house. But I don't think that the way of my, in my opinion, I have to see that people drink my bottles mostly, say, one year after manufacturing, after we release it. You know, because we are keeping in bottles in the winery and for release, I think that is— this is a— you know, in studies they say that 80% of the guys in the same day or tomorrow, they say the wine will be open. And this have to be, you know, the best quality have to be on the table, you know, to say, to produce wine. And you say, you know, if you keep with my father-in-law, okay, I have a friend that selling wine in France, in Strasbourg, and there is a Bordeaux, I don't remember the name, there's a problem. The people that's giving to the seller back, okay, so we taste the wine. It was very reduced, very. And we put it in carafe, okay? And I taste each day, okay? After a week, very nice wine. And the owner said, "What I can do with the bottle?" No, you can't. I say, "You can't sell to your customer, you know, you have to pull it in the carafe and after a week, it will be okay. Send it back." You know, the wine has to be at the best quality on the table. It's very, very difficult. Sometimes people, winemakers, as one that in the feeling the wine will be better. You have to think always that's a little type. So, and if you don't know, and you know, in rosé wine, sometimes you have in your storage, okay, good storage, but, and it's only going to the market 1 year after, and it's not the same wine in rosé, you know, rosé is not Grenache is good, but Honoré Bazac said that only Tavel can be aging in rosé because it's only Grenache. That, you know, the guys says in Côte de Provence says that only Mourvèdre because Mourvèdre is not changing.

Right.

So, but you know, aging rosé is never a good idea. Never, never. Because, you know, the point is going oxidated and you are not too wait. Rosé is very fresh and you have to be— because when you do rosé, you never know when it's be sold. See, if you put— if you— it's too much reduced and there is a big problem in rosé in the '80s. In Aute, it was the best selling in restaurant that they are reduced because they are so afraid of oxidation. That they are putting reduced wine on the table in the restaurant, you know. I don't— and reduction, it's— in France they do studies in testing what is the biggest problem in the wines. And why— and they test wines, and they test and check wines that people are giving back to the sales. And they say the biggest problem is reduction. More than oxidation. More than oxidation because reduction is very bad smells. And they don't put the wine in mouth, you know. And when you have this kind of wine, you have to protect it from oxidation, but not too much, you know. This is always balance. And sometimes it's going well. Sometimes—

That's happened to me where I've tasted a wine and I said, "Ooh, this is bad." And the winemaker said, no, it's actually reduction. Give it a little bit of time. And it ends up being amazing.

Yeah. So, but you can't say to the consumer, you know, I say for winery without name in Israel, I taste the Pinot Noir and so much time, it was so harsh. I tell the guy, you know, put in the bottle, lock the bottle and is only opening after 60 years, you know. —because you can do this. Yeah.

No, you're very pragmatic. You know the word pragmatic? Pragmatic is—

We try to be.

Yeah, you are. You're very pragmatic. And it's true. Everybody keeps thinking about these wines over, you know, 20 years of this and that. It's actually— what you need to focus on is the table. When the person opens the wine, what are they going to taste? And that's the bottom line. With it. Last question, when a person opens a bottle of Hayotzer, what do you want them to experience? What do you want them to get out of it?

Oh, you know, wine, it's only a pleasure, you know. There has to be, you know, in wine, there has to be a pleasure from the beginning, from smelling the wine. I have, you know, color for me, it's less important because we are working with Mediterranean varieties and Mediterranean varieties is not the deep red color. You have good color, not brown wine, but you know, a nice color, but color is less important, you know. And what is important is from the first smell until the evolution and until the drinking, all the way, it will be pleasure only. That's, I think that is the aim, you know, to do— when you buy wine, it's expensive product. While buying, say, a good wine, people are putting at least the minimum, it's 50 shekels. Coca-Cola is 7, you know, and it's twice the quantity. But in wine, people have to have the pleasure of the wine. The degustation and the pleasure of the pairing with the food. Because it's symbiosis, you know. You have to have more than each wine alone. And I think that that's the aim, you know. That people are very pleased that they drink my wine. That's all. Thank you.

You know, do you close off every every little video broadcast that you do from Hayotzer with the Hayotzer. Okay. Nechaye Yotzer. Amen. Baruch Hashem. Thank you. Thank you very much. Toda lehav.

Toda. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Bye.

This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of The Kosher Teruah. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you are new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.